#121 – Shannon Brazil: Teach Business to Tech People

[00:00:01] I'm Douglas Brush and you're listening to Cyber Security Interviews. Cyber Security Interviews is the weekly podcast dedicated to digging into the minds of the influencers, thought leaders and individuals who shape the cybersecurity industry. I discover what motivates them,

[00:00:26] explore their journey in cybersecurity and discuss where they think the industry is going. The show lets listeners learn from the expert stories and hear their opinions on what works and doesn't in cybersecurity. Hello and welcome to episode 121 of Cyber Security

[00:00:50] Interviews. This is another episode in the Rising Stars series in cybersecurity when we're speaking with Shannon Brazil. Shannon is a senior cybersecurity specialist working with a cert of a Canadian Fortune 500. She has been in IT for over 12 years with the

[00:01:04] last three years in cyber crime investigations, with law enforcement and recently moving into the private sector to focus on digital forensic analysis and investigations as well as incident response. As a hobby, Shannon dyes deep into OSNET CTFs, help promote young women

[00:01:20] to enter STEM industry through Technovation, an innovation program for young entrepreneurs and offers mentorship to those looking to venture into cybersecurity. She is also a course designer and developer with her local college that aims to arm the new generations

[00:01:33] with tactics, techniques and knowledge in becoming experts in digital forensics investigations. In this episode, we discuss starting as a chef, skills learned from culinary arts, moving from IT to investigations, burnout and self-care, mentors she follows, why she mentors others,

[00:01:49] diversity and inclusion and so much more. I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. Thanks for listening. Shannon thanks for joining me in Cyber Security Interviews. How are you today? I'm great thank you. How are you?

[00:01:59] I'm doing well. So if I recall from my OSNET research, you're based out of Canada. Yes, I am. I am based out of Ottawa, Ontario, but currently and living in Canmore, Alberta to enjoy some of the mountains.

[00:02:14] Oh, beautiful. I love that area. Many years ago, I got up there to Banff in different areas around the area for skiing and snowboarding and everybody's like, oh no, you really have to come back in the summer. Summer is where it's at.

[00:02:27] Oh, it's magical, especially when you have some snow caps still on the peaks. I mean, it's just some white highlights in the background. It's pretty nice. It's nice to pick up to. Yeah. Well, actually, you know, we were just before we were talking about, you know,

[00:02:41] my purpose of starting the podcast many years ago was to kind of tell people there's a lot of different ways to get in the industry that there's not one way. And I said, you know, this is right this year that I really want to kind

[00:02:52] of showcase some talents of folks that have been showing others how to do it. So, you know, I really wanted to talk to you about some of the things that you're working on and because I've been kind of watching from afar, but I love

[00:03:03] for you to kind of describe how did you one get started in cybersecurity? I saw you. You've started with the the Mounted Police, which was awesome. I've gotten to see some of those business cards over the air, which are

[00:03:16] like playing cars. And then, you know, and now you're contributing back to the community, which I think is awesome. So kind of tell us a little bit about your journey and how you decided to kind of give to get.

[00:03:27] Yeah, sure. So I actually got into information security on accident. It wasn't something that I strive to do at the beginning of, you know, choosing a career when when you first graduate, I actually started in culinary management

[00:03:42] and I was a chef for about three years until I figured out that this wasn't something that I wanted to do. And I kind of like cooking for friends and family more than staying on my feet for 16 hours with like minimum wage

[00:03:53] pay was it was really rough. It's it's it's not an industry for everybody, but it's very, very cutthroat. So I decided to go back to school to learn information like just IT work. I I thought I was going to be, you know,

[00:04:10] be that that lady who goes around people's offices and fixes their computer every day for the next like 30 years. But once you get into information security, which is what I studied for at my college, you get a

[00:04:23] really good well rounded education. So with the college, I was able to get some software, some hardware networking. I had one course of information security, which was mainly about cryptography, which I never use anymore.

[00:04:41] But you kind of get like some tidbits of where you can go and and having some great teachers, I was inspired to continue into information security. And I got a job at the RCMP, the Royal Canada Mountain Police, it within their help desk as an IT analyst.

[00:04:58] And I won a permanent position there after about four months and I worked my butt off. I was there. I collaborated with some of my colleagues on creating documentation to aid people when they called in for certain, excuse me, certain

[00:05:20] issues or certain unknown issues like very uncommon things that we were seeing. And that kind of led me more into building up my fundamentals of an operating system and like secure applications. After that, I went into went to like second level support,

[00:05:38] which was mainly like their stock level was compute operations and network operations, supporting the hundreds of applications that the RCMP has. And then after that, after about two years of shift work, which is super hard on someone's body, but I do I do think it's a really good

[00:05:56] place to to learn how to manage yourself, be able to when you have downtime, learn a couple new techniques, learn, learn what the senior people are doing and how different management signatures can can really affect the teams and and so on.

[00:06:19] Especially when you're with someone for 12 hours a day for like two weeks straight. You get to really know some people and you get to really know what works and what doesn't work in in team dynamics. It's super important for soft skills.

[00:06:33] And then after that, I went into their Linux team. So building and supporting their Linux environment, both virtually and their bare metal boxes. Then after that, I got seconded to the cyber crime investigations team, which was my introduction to cyber security.

[00:06:56] I didn't get into cybersecurity to learn how to make the system better. But I did get into cybersecurity to help the victims kind of clean up what was happening and get them a better understanding of what happened and how they can they can rectify

[00:07:16] or who to talk to and be able to to kind of serve their clients better, especially if their information if they were victimized with a cyber attack. It was very hard two years because you get to see I got to see a lot of carnage at that point.

[00:07:37] It's very heartbreaking because you kind of know when you when you get into it, you kind of start seeing patterns and you see certain vulnerabilities that are being exploited and you you want to desperately help them.

[00:07:50] But the mandate for your for your team isn't to be the solution. It's to be it is is the law part, the law enforcement part of cyber attacks. And that's where I kind of felt like I was I was missing out on.

[00:08:06] I was missing out on seeing that journey of completion. I've seen a solution being implemented and being able to to see if your solution was working or if, you know, how to be more aware of the cyber attacks and different attacks and different vulnerabilities

[00:08:28] and what kind of teams need to be in constant communication to be able to assist each other. So that's when I left the RCP and go into the private sector. And now I'm a senior cybersecurity specialist. I am on the incident response team for for my company.

[00:08:49] I'm the digital forensic expert. I've accumulated all these skills and knowledge to be able to be the solution now. And how much of that do you get to do the solutions? I mean, I think that that is part of the challenges.

[00:09:03] I've certainly seen that other areas of investigations. It's you kind of move on from one fire to another. And then you say, gosh, if I only had 10 minutes, I can maybe try to help a bunch of people fireproof their house.

[00:09:15] Do you find you're able to offer some of those kind of remediation and betterment steps to people now? Absolutely, I feel like with the incident response, you are going from fire to fire. But I really enjoy the follow up of incidents. So the post mortem, right?

[00:09:33] So our lessons learned. What can we do better? How we can improve our systems? Are our systems out of date? Are they when were they designed? Were they designed 10 years ago when, you know, Dados wasn't at the top of the list, ransomware wasn't something

[00:09:49] that's like hitting our back door every day? No, they weren't. So you kind of have to remember like this solution worked 10 years ago, but we need something different and we need to move fast. So I really enjoy that post mortem part of showcasing,

[00:10:06] you know, these different techniques to implement in these different solutions and talk it out with some of our teams. So we have, you know, like our cyber threat intelligent team that are super awesome. So if I give them a terrible idea, they'll tell me right away, like Shannon,

[00:10:22] that this is not going to work. It's like, OK, back to the John board and I really like that type of work. Are you finding yourself now as you're getting through this portion of Korea sounds like you're doing not only the case manager, but do you have any

[00:10:35] any folks working for you in a capacity where you have to manage them? Actually, all of our teams are we have different pods. So our team will rotate on the duty officer or the incident commander, which is great because you get that leadership skill and you can

[00:10:57] lead on someone else who has who has kind of a higher sense of skills with when it comes to organization. It's not to say that I am the lead all the time, but there are a lot of times where because I am louder,

[00:11:13] I am more extroverted than some of my teammates. I do become the lead in some of these cases most of the time, but I always showcase the skills that my other teammates have that are a little more advanced than mine. So I'm a digital forensic expert,

[00:11:30] but I do have teammates that are that's one of the log analysts expert. And he he's absolutely amazing. He does he does think like he can find things so fast. So I will always, you know, like I'll take I'll take the the backseat

[00:11:48] when it comes to cases that require a lot of log analysis or network analysis, or if someone if it's a case where we require a lot of threat intelligence. I have another person on my team who's super great in that.

[00:12:01] And I I am more than happy to put them in the spotlight and be able to push them forward and giving them pointers on how to present better and how to address issues and how else to think

[00:12:15] and one of the things that that I find very funny is is it's really easy to teach tech to business people, but very hard to teach business to tech people. So being at being on on both sides, you kind of have to remind the teammates that no,

[00:12:35] you can't you can't just shut this system down because you think it's a good idea, like you have to think about the impacts of the business too. Yeah, I am I am one that always looks for confirmation by us. So even though we've come from different paths

[00:12:52] in the first time we're talking, I'm so glad you said something that I completely agree with because that is the problem. I think a lot of times so much of this gets out of focus of, hey, you know, we have to look at this IOC and these TTPs

[00:13:04] and how far do we go? Sometimes it's you have to reframe it. Well, how is this going to impact the business? You know, where do we stop? What do we pivot? What do we really focus on and keeping operations going versus the excitement of chasing rabbits down holes?

[00:13:17] Yeah, exactly. And you know, like there are some cases where there there are really good ideas, but then you have to look at the timeline and say, OK, our deadline is two days and you want to implement something that will take you four days to do.

[00:13:33] Is this a good idea? Is this something that we can move over for future implementation and better understand the possible impacts and maybe test them out before, you know, putting it over the prod. Yeah, it's crazy ideas. You know, what what?

[00:13:50] You know, when you look at where you're going in your career path, what would you say is, you know, kind of your end game? Where would you want to see yourself in a couple of years? And as you develop and grow your career?

[00:13:59] Yeah, so I I really love incident response and I really love digital forensics, but I know that the further into my career I go, like the higher I go in in leadership, the less in the weeds I will be, which is why I wanted to kind of

[00:14:16] plant my feet down in a platform fitted for mentorship. And so I in the future, my my goal would be to to be a director or to be a CISO or whatever it is, whatever the title is at that point. But I would like to

[00:14:35] bring like bring with me some really awesome experts be around some some amazing people, people that are willing to to learn and to grow and to lift each other up. Doesn't matter where it is really. So so my goal is to be that director or that leader,

[00:14:58] you know, wherever that position may be and be able to mentor anybody who who wants to be in cybersecurity, but also who are currently in cybersecurity but want to pivot into a different direction or even just want to better their skills. That's that's my goal.

[00:15:18] It's one of the the most profound things that stuck with me when I started this podcast was actually in the first interview with Chris Pogue many, many years ago. It's actually been five years in a couple of months,

[00:15:29] but he said, you know, you really the sign of leadership is is a leader that not only can kind of take charge, but somebody that can build a leader that can then in turn build other leaders. It's that scalability of that top down organization.

[00:15:44] What are your thoughts around that? How do you see developing some of your skills or where you want to focus on your skills to be able to build other leaders? So some of the skills that I've been building up is communication, empathy and listening, active listening actually.

[00:16:03] Those skills even so during the mentorships that I've been that I've been providing, there are some people who require technical mentorship. So they just don't they have the soft skills. They're great at presenting. They just don't have the fundamental understandings of some of the concepts

[00:16:23] that are required in cybersecurity, which is totally fine because you can teach that. That's technical skills are taught very easily. The soft skills, those types of individuals that lack the confidence that lack the presentation skills or be having a hard time articulating themselves.

[00:16:45] Those need a little bit more time, but they need more empathy and they need more active listening because there's a lot of things happening in everyone's lives that you don't know. There could be family members that are sick. There could be family members that are losing their jobs

[00:16:59] and they're just struggling, they're stressed out, they have debt. You have to be really aware of those lives. You have to be aware of those emotions and those feelings. And I find that having those skills of recognizing hardship or recognizing

[00:17:16] how hard someone is working really goes a long way in anyone's leadership skills. Yeah, it's funny that we talk a lot about security and particularly I already know this kind of idea of situational awareness, but it certainly it applies to the people as well. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:17:35] In looking back at maybe some of your past training because I happen to like to personally cook and I find there's a strong connection with folks and information security when it comes to everything from making cocktails to barbecuing to cooking. There's something about deconstructing,

[00:17:50] reversing things and putting them together. But there's also a process flow. There's this idea of preparation and tooling. Do you think anything in your culinary arts training help prepare you for your life in security? Absolutely, I find so when you're working in a restaurant, you have rotations.

[00:18:10] So you have flips. You have services that last an hour and then you have one hour of, you have like 20 minutes of downtime and then another wave comes in because those tables have gone and the servers or the hostess sat,

[00:18:27] a new slew of guests or customers at your table. So now you're ramping up to maybe serve about 10 tables at the same time. So you know that that wave is coming in. In cybersecurity, it kind of prepared me to be calm in those fight or flight situations,

[00:18:47] to be able to see it coming, recognize when things are gonna start ramping up, when to where to give my attention, where to give priorities to certain aspects of cybersecurity within that project but also be the calm that's required in order so that it doesn't get too crazy

[00:19:14] that no one is freaking out on the phones, your customers feel like they're safe with you. They feel like you are the professional, you're there to help, you're not there to make it worse and time management. Honestly, when you're cooking, you have to know that a baked potato

[00:19:34] will take longer than a medium rare steak. So you have to start something first and your greens are gonna take five minutes so you don't wanna start your greens before your potatoes or your meats. You want everything to be hot and ready to go at the same time.

[00:19:52] So you have to deal with different streams and you have to deal with different responsibilities, same thing with cybersecurity, there's different data streams. You'll have your initial response to an incident as well as the investigation. You'll have your digital forensics team, you'll have your incident response team

[00:20:12] working in parallel, your cyber intelligence team also working in parallel, finding those IOCs, finding those leads and more information to get a better scope of the impact of what you're working with. And then you're starting your remediation process but you have to, you're also doing your containment

[00:20:32] and your mitigation at the same time. Like there's so many things happening at once and that's the same thing for a kitchen. You have your sides, your mains, your desserts, your salads, everything is happening all at once but being the kitchen manager, the kitchen leader

[00:20:48] as well as the incident response lead, you are that calm. You are managing different streams at the same time and you are ensuring proper flow and communication between all the teams. So yeah, it's those skills that I learned in the kitchen are so easily transferred over to cybersecurity.

[00:21:10] Yeah, having studied and not done really anything in far depth of view, but when you look at the process flows of a lot of it as everywhere from where people move from stations as things move through the kitchen from ticketing out at expediting,

[00:21:24] it's like, wow, there really is a lot of similarity because there's so many parallel tasks and I think that's what people forget. It's, you know, when you look at the incident response planning and process, it's not this waterfall. There's things going on

[00:21:37] and you're jumping around from different steps and then a new thing comes in. So you're constantly compartmentalizing what you're doing and shifting it off, but that could certainly lead to mental anguish and burnout and stress. How do you try to,

[00:21:52] how do you manage some of your mental wellbeing of that because this is one of the things I've seen over and over again is just people burning out in IR because they become less effective after crazy 160 hours a week straight, they don't become that focused.

[00:22:08] I strongly recommend just acknowledging that you are hitting burnout. So if you acknowledge it and you recognize it, that you are about to burn out, voice it, say something. I had a couple of weeks back, I was going through a lot of personal issues

[00:22:30] and it all happened all at once this one day. So I contacted my boss and I said, I need a mental health day and I don't wanna talk about it. And he's like, no problem, here you go. Take the day, let me know if you're coming in tomorrow.

[00:22:45] I'll prep the team, like just take your day, I'll take care of it. I'm like, okay, cool. But it really helps. Being in a management position means that you're being that leader that has the capabilities of making sure that your team doesn't burn out,

[00:23:11] that your team is 100% capable of supporting everybody, the rest of your team and what they need to accomplish. But if you have a member that's burning out, that's not able to think anymore because they're mentally just drained, that productivity is decreased and things start dropping.

[00:23:40] So when it comes to alleviating that sense of burnout, I always recommend saying something, talking to somebody and taking those wellness days that are being offered, taking some vacation and don't feel bad that you're taking the vacation

[00:23:57] because you really need it, even if you don't think you do. Yeah, what are some of the things we were talking about? I'm very much of an outwards person living in obviously Boulder, Colorado, just getting out and away from the tech as before.

[00:24:11] What are some of the things you do to stop and recharge? So I am a very outdoorsy person. So when I was living in Ottawa, there's not much in the valley that you can really do to walk away from this. Like there's a couple beaches,

[00:24:28] there's a couple like trails that you can walk on, but nothing that produces those endorphins that some people are striving for. So when I moved out to Canmore, Alberta, I am literally within 20 minutes of a trail head to one of the most iconic peaks in Canmore.

[00:24:50] So like hauling, ships prowl, there's the Three Sisters Peaks, and there's canyons, there's rivers, there's lakes, there's camping, kayaking, canoeing, and in the winter there's skiing, snowshoeing, ice climbing. There's so many things, physical things that will allow me to just unplug, even though I do have my phone,

[00:25:13] I do have to do that rotation, but it's nice to know that I can go up in the mountains and just breathe in the freshest air possible and just relax. And my only goal, like the only thing

[00:25:28] that I have to think about is getting up to the mountain and then getting down to the car. That's it, it's so simple and I love it. Yeah, I highly recommend if anybody really wants to think that it's stressful doing IR,

[00:25:41] get up around 13,000 feet in like a back area where there's no cell phone service and getting really bad altitude sickness, then you start realizing what's real and not when you have to descend. Yeah, I've been in those situations really trying to get out,

[00:25:55] but the point is like you start realizing what matters when you get in contact with the things that sometimes don't matter as much. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, when you're completely unplugged the only thing that matters is like, where are you gonna go from here?

[00:26:12] You know, you have to climb down this massive rock, like what's your next move? Yeah, well one of the things you do, that's speaking of some of the moves that you've done is certainly mentoring others and things from Cyber Mentor Dojo and your own side of putting together

[00:26:28] kind of different material. And really where I picked up was some of the things that we've both kind of missed each other in different talk tracks for things like Blue Team Village and other outlets. What was your, I guess what was your first thing

[00:26:43] that you kind of looked at say, okay, if I'm gonna start giving back, what was the first kind of idea that you wanna do? Kind of talk on, share and kind of elevate the discussion with others about. So I didn't really have a plan

[00:26:56] and it was my boyfriend who told me, why don't you join Twitter? And I was like, what, why would I join Twitter? And then I joined it and I found this amazing community within cybersecurity and information security. Like the people on there are just amazing

[00:27:13] and I found their blogs, I found their websites, I found how they were contributing. And I was doing mentorship before but I didn't know how well I could do it outside of the company that I was working for. But I found some people

[00:27:35] and I felt that I have the experience I might as well try and teach something but also find my own mentor at the same time. So it's kind of a give and take. And when it came to Twitter, as I was tweeting about my experience

[00:27:55] in information security or cybersecurity, I started getting a lot of responses, a lot of questions that I was beginning to repeat in answering. So I decided, why not start a little blog about this and start and really give

[00:28:16] some feedback on how I came to be in this position, what people can do today to start their careers. And it just kind of snowballed from there. The more I talk, the more rocks they start to overturn and finding exactly like what these roadblocks

[00:28:39] that people are talking about. And being a mentor has really opened my eyes in terms of the struggles, the different types of struggles that people are facing trying to get into this industry. And as you look at some of, there's look I agree with your Twitter,

[00:29:00] it can always be a very challenging, let's say platform. There's good and bad that comes with it because of its just structure in nature. It is what it is. But how did you find some of those positive voices? Who were some of those early people

[00:29:15] that you saw within our industry that you kind of latched onto and started following? So the very first person I followed was Alyssa. Hard not to follow Alyssa. So hard not to follow. Don't try to follow her on stage. Always go before her.

[00:29:34] She's one of the best public speakers. After I see her speak, I'm like, I'm never doing that again. I've forgotten it. I know she is incredible. She's so smart, but she's also super humble too, which makes her an even better person.

[00:29:52] That was the first person I ever followed. And the second person I followed was Gabby. And Gabby is just such a strong woman and she knows what she's talking about. And she's so intimidating. But those two ladies, they kind of helped me get out of my shyness

[00:30:15] when it came to saying something in public or on a public platform, like any social media platform. And they give me that drive because you're like, man, if she can do it, I can do it. And you just kind of lift each other up at that point.

[00:30:36] I've never seen anything bad come out of either of their mouths or even like, I've never seen them make a mistake, but at the same time, I know that they have so much experience in doing things that, you kind of have to just do it.

[00:31:01] Yeah, well, of course like last week at Wallace Hackney Festival, I was like, all right, so your assistant, straight white guy, you're gonna talk about diversity in the industry? Fine. And she tweets about it to God knows how many people

[00:31:12] and then sits front and center next to John Stran. I was like, okay, bring it. And I, that was intimidating. And I was like, I'm gonna use it in your hair, but to your hair. But one of the things that she was really encouraging me,

[00:31:23] she's been encouraging me to speak out on is the lack of diversity in this industry and to promote underrepresented voices. So as you've come up, I've certainly seen in the last 30 years of IT, I mean, we can talk about the disparity,

[00:31:35] but it's there, but do you see it getting better? And what are some of the things that allies like myself can do better to continue to make it an inclusive environment? Do you find it getting better? I find that there are a lot of companies

[00:31:51] and educational programs that are including, that are making diversity their priority. And one of the things that's so great to see is just the amount of acceptance, not only for like the hiring or the register office saying like, oh, we need more diversity,

[00:32:14] but also the people in the companies or in the programs are becoming more accepting and they're changing the way that they are approaching these diverse people, right? So they're more aware, they're more sensitive, they're more understanding, they're more accepting. They're still a little bit of work to do.

[00:32:42] They're still needing some HR programs on sensitivity and sexism and so on, but it would be wrong of me to say that they're not doing anything about it. So, and I find that now we're, I mean, in the industry of cybersecurity, it's very male dominated,

[00:33:08] but there are other industries that are male, that are female dominated, such as nursing. So if we can get rid of the stigmatism that a specific gender is only allowed to be in this place and accepted in this place, then we're working to do better tomorrow.

[00:33:26] If we can just say anybody can be in cybersecurity, anybody can be in nursing, anybody can be a fireman, anybody can do what they wanna be, then we're already working towards it. Yeah, I find it challenging for me. I look at things sometimes overly logical in business sense,

[00:33:47] we can't sit there and say there's a shortage of talent and then exclude a huge portion of the population in so many ways. And they go, gosh, we just can't fill the roles. It's, I think the problem is those like me

[00:34:02] that have kind of paved the way for far too long. And it's like we have to look at things a little bit differently. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, there's, it comes down to some very old ways of thinking or ways of being taught that have been passed down

[00:34:23] through generations and in families, right? And you kind of have to break yourself out of it. You have to recognize it first. You have to break out of it yourself. Like if someone is taught, if someone grew up in a family

[00:34:40] that for example only thought women were good for like at home work or stay at home mothers or in the kitchen. The children are sponges. They will pick that up and they will carry that on unless they recognize that that's not right.

[00:35:03] Unless they start to learn different views of life and they have to make those connections themselves. Yeah, it's really that that leading by example. And it's funny seeing that now that my daughter's 10 and there's those nuances of how you have to be careful

[00:35:21] about language because I think we all have inherent biases. Things you pick up in particular after me or 40 something years that certain things I say even though I'm such a champion for this, I have to stop and rethink. OK, am I saying something in a pattern of tense

[00:35:37] that could just be presenting a bias I didn't even know was really there? Yeah. So I greatly appreciate you taking your time with us today. Where can where can people find you on the interwebs? Yes. So Twitter, obviously my handle is at four and sick lady.

[00:35:56] So four and six lady. I also have a medium account for NZC lady dot medium. And I also have my my website for NZC lady dot com. It's under construction, so there's only like one part of it that's available.

[00:36:13] I don't haven't had the time to to put up the other pages yet, but that'll that'll come in due time. But all of my my contact information on there, like my Twitter, my LinkedIn, my medium are only a click away.

[00:36:27] Excellent. I'll be sure to put all that in the show notes so people can find you. And she had to thank you so much again for for this conversation day. Oh, thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.

[00:36:37] Thank you so much for joining us today on cybersecurity interviews. I hope that you enjoyed this interview as much as I did. Please go to cybersecurity interviews dot com, where you can find every episode, including show notes and links for each guest.

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