Beyond the Numbers: The Power of Process-Driven Sales with Keith Rosen

[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_00]: You're listening to Scaling Up Services where we speak with entrepreneurs, authors, business

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_00]: experts and thought leaders to give you the knowledge and insights you need to scale your

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_00]: service-based business faster and easier.

[00:00:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And now here is your host, business coach Bruce Eckfeldt.

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[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Now back to our episode.

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome everyone.

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_01]: This is Scaling Up Services.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Bruce Eckfalt.

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm your host.

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Our guest today is Keith Rosen.

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_01]: He is Chief Evolution Officer and Executive Sales Coach at Profit Builders.

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to talk sales.

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to talk about the world of sales and the state of sales in the industry right now

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and really kind of the modern sales approach.

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I think we've seen just business really evolve over the last many years here

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_01]: in terms of how people connect, why people connect, kind of the tools we have.

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_01]: We've got everything from these networks now to crazy AI tools.

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_01]: There's all sorts of things going on and amazing opportunities,

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_01]: but also kind of amazing kind of confusion I think in the market,

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_01]: both in terms of how people buy, how people sell.

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think there's a lot of things going on that we need to talk about.

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So excited for the conversation, excited to hear kind of Keith's take on these things,

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_01]: what he's noticing and maybe where some of these things are going.

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So with all that, Keith, welcome to the program.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Pleasure to be here.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for having me.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thanks for being on.

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Before we dive into everything in the world today around sales,

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_01]: would love to kind of get a little bit of your background and your history.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Tell us a story.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_01]: How did you get to do what you're doing today?

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So it took me 32 years to become an overnight success.

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And I've had the pleasure and privilege of working with hundreds of thousands of sales

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_02]: leaders and salespeople across 76 countries and six continents.

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So the one thing I've noticed universally is that coaching is truly a universal language.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_02]: So starting out, I really focused on salespeople and quickly noticed that the bigger gap of course

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and the epicenter of every organization are the sales leaders.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So without those sales leaders being able to coach and best support their salespeople,

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_02]: they're just missing out on so many opportunities about retention of their top people,

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_02]: accelerating their sales process, improving pipeline accuracy,

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and basically just creating a thriving, engaging culture.

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I guess what drives you at this point?

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Like why do the work you're doing today, like what have you noticed

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and what's really kind of engaging and interesting for you personally?

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So I would say when it comes to core values and first and foremost my wife, my kids.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Secondly, hopefully doing what we're doing today is making an impact in the world.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, music is a very close third and adventure, travel, connection with people globally.

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_02]: To me those are the gifts that I get working with people like you and my clients across the world.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_01]: All right.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we'll have to do another episode on adventure travel at some point here.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_01]: That's a big one for me.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_01]: So in terms of sales, I guess what are you seeing in terms of big shifts in how

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: people sell, how people buy in the last couple of years?

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Or like what do you see as being kind of the big things that have shaped the way sales happen today?

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I was the first thing that popped in my head is absolute confusion.

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Just doing some research as I always do with regardless of what I say,

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_02]: it's always nice to back it up with stats, right?

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So I recently saw that over the last few years,

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_02]: pre-pandemic and post-pandemic, at this point 76% of all companies have changed the way they buy.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_02]: However, only 17% of companies have changed the way they sell.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you look at that discrepancy right there,

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_02]: so many salespeople are still trying to use the same strategies they used before the pandemic

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and then wondering why they're not closing business and hitting quota.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's because the environment and the landscape of sales has changed more specifically

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_02]: how buyers are making decisions.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And one of the things, if I was to say universally,

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_02]: whether you're a sales manager or a salesperson,

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_02]: we need to understand that the predominant sales strategy today is care,

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_02]: because that's what people want today.

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_02]: We live in this hybrid world.

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_02]: We are more disconnected than we've ever been.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And we are all going through something and that includes our clients and our prospects.

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_02]: So if we can't figure out a way to foster deeper intimate and personal connections

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_02]: with our customers and prospects, it's simple.

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to lose them because just like us and what we want,

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_02]: that's what our customers want as well.

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's about going deeper into more of who they are,

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_02]: not just simply what they want or the benefits they're looking to gain from your product preserves.

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Can you give me an example of a hopeful, reasonable,

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_01]: appropriate, effective way to bring some of that care into the sales process looks like?

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. I find that today the conversations that salespeople and managers need to have,

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_02]: they're simply not having.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's not their fault because some conversations have evolved in our new landscape of work,

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_02]: for example, where take the discovery process,

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_02]: salespeople are going through their discovery process,

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_02]: they're identifying their ideal client profile and hopefully the questions they're using are

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_02]: aligning with making sure that, hey, are they a good fit for me or are they not?

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_02]: That's just part of the equation.

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_02]: There are deeper conversations that even managers need to have with their team.

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And to give you an example, it's more about having that personal conversation

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_02]: that managers, it's outside of their line of vision because no one's having the

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_02]: conversation with them and I'll give you an example of several questions

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_02]: that salespeople and managers need to ask.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_02]: For example, when was the last time a manager, so Mr. or Mrs. Salesperson,

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_02]: how are you balancing your workload and your personal responsibilities at home?

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_02]: How are you setting boundaries between your personal responsibilities and your life?

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_02]: How are you turning off work at the end of the day so you can be fully present

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_02]: and engaged with the people, your family around you?

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_02]: No one's having those conversations.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And again, it's because they're outside of our line of vision because we've never had them before.

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_01]: This includes sharing some of those things too.

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I've noticed some of the more interesting conversations I've had with folks,

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_01]: they're much more not only asking these questions but actually sharing some of the things that they've

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_01]: learned or said in their own struggles around this process that I think has been really interesting

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_02]: and helpful. Yeah, and having that reflection, it's something that we wouldn't even consider

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_02]: bringing into the workforce. I mean, managers are thinking, wait Keith, you want me to

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_02]: have a conversation with my team about how they're balancing their life and how they're managing their

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_02]: time and how they're making sure they're honoring their values and priorities and the things that

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_02]: bring them joy and fulfillment in their life, which is simply not having those questions.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And of course, again, preaching the proverbial choir, Bruce, we know that salespeople are

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_02]: not coin operated today. And even if a salesperson says, oh yeah, money motivates me,

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_02]: we know that it's not money, it's what's under that money. What does it mean to them? Is it

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_02]: security? Is it peace of mind? Is it being able to spend more time doing the things that bring

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_02]: them joy and fulfillment in their life? Those are the things that we need to be more conscious of,

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_02]: especially again, even asking people, what are your core values? And how can we align your core

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_02]: values with the organization's core values? Yeah, interesting. I want to go back to you mentioned

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_01]: this sort of stat or this idea that most companies or a large majority of companies

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_01]: have changed the way they buy, but yet we haven't really changed the way we sell.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Like what are some examples of the way people are buying differently or changing their buying

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_02]: process? Sure, especially with the advent of AI, companies are scrambling to try to leverage it.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'll be the first to say there are certainly some incredible advantages of leveraging technology.

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Unfortunately today, companies are they're looking at the latest technology and they're

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_02]: throwing it at their team saying, this is what's going to help you sell. This is what's going to

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_02]: help accelerate your pipeline. This is going to make your forecast more accurate. While that

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_02]: may be true, it's confusing our sales organizations. And the last time I checked, technology doesn't build

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_02]: deeper trusting relationships sales people do. Yeah. So do you feel like some of this is

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_01]: rather than using this technology to kind of replace some of these sales functions and sales

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_01]: roles is sort of augment in different ways? Like I've seen some interesting tools that

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_01]: just give more data to the sales person at the right time and even like coaching them a little

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_01]: bit. I mean, are these things being effective or what's your take on some of these types of tools?

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_02]: It's only as effective as how well the managers are enrolling and creating alignment and buy-in

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_02]: around their team. For example, take the infamous adoption of CRM. I would say the last time I checked

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_02]: the ability for sales people to buy in and leverage new CRM and technology is about 25%.

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And then managers wonder why? You know, I'm pushing these people, I'm pushing my team,

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_02]: this should help them. But what do they hear back? They hear, well, boss, I'm doing it this way.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_02]: This has been working for me. And then companies wonder why there's not full adoption of technology.

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And the reason why is again speaking to the language of leadership, the language of

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_02]: sales is coaching. So managers need to change the way they're communicating with their team.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And that bleeds into one of the things I write about, which is the art of enrollment.

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Managers are really, really good at telling their team, hey, this is what we're using. Here's the new

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_02]: latest and greatest technology goal-averaging. And of course sales people like, well, why?

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Everything's working for me. And of course the manager can play the power card and say,

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_02]: well, that's what we need to do because that was sanctioned from the top. Now,

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_02]: the person may say, okay, well I want to keep my job so I guess I'll do it. But how much buy-in

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_02]: do they really have? So managers are really, really good at telling people what to do,

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_02]: where they miss the mark is concluding that conversation with here's why we're doing it

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and here's what's in it for you. And that last part when managers have the ability

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_02]: to align business objectives with each person's personal goals, values and motivators,

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_02]: that's when you create the ultimate buy-in. That's when you have pure alignment. That's when

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_02]: you have that North Star, that guiding light, that shared goal, which creates that buy-in

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_02]: because now the sales team is looking, oh, now I get it. If I adopt this,

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to get this personally. So there's that alignment that's often missing,

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_02]: which eludes managers and then they bang their head wondering why there's no buy-in or why

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_02]: their people aren't changing or why they're not being accountable.

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. It's almost like you need to sell the salespeople on the tools.

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Like in terms of structurally, what are you noticing about buying processes? Are people,

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_01]: is the timing different? Is the process they use? Are they using different technologies or tools or

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_01]: data? How is this new world that we're in shaping just the buying process itself for some of these

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_02]: companies? Yeah, it's really interesting and I'm sure, hey, listen, I'm in sales every day.

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_02]: We're in sales every day and it's amazing how I can call a client say in January and February

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I would go reach out to them again and they're gone. So people are leaving companies at a record pace

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and this silent quitting, all these things going on. I'll give you an example. I was speaking to

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_02]: a director of sales engagement for one of my larger clients and just recently,

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I've been reaching out to her very, very close with my clients and she went dark

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and finally got a response and her response was, Keith, I am so sorry. I've been out of the loop.

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I just had to take over two additional teams. Yeah. Well then the question is why? Well,

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_02]: because someone else left and there's been a reorg and people are leaving, new people are coming

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_02]: in, we have to onboard them and companies are now in such a state of reactivity more than

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_02]: ever they're reacting to the market rather than getting ahead of it and responding to it. Yeah.

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_01]: What are some, I mean, I guess in terms of the things that companies have been changing in terms

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_01]: of how they sell, what have you seen that's particularly effective in terms of kind of shifts

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_01]: that companies, successful companies are making in terms of their sales process,

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_02]: sales structure, sales training? Well, to me and this, I will qualify this,

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_02]: sales training is dead. Okay, interesting. Tell me more. The one thing in the competitive edge

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_02]: today is not training salespeople on what quite frankly hasn't changed in 40 years. I mean,

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, you could mix and match but at the end of the day sales hasn't changed in 40 years.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Here's what has changed and here's what the competitive edge for any organization is.

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_02]: It's transforming their salespeople into coaches. So they're coaching their customers to succeed,

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_01]: not selling them. Okay, so give me an example of what the sales

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of process would look like versus a coaching process.

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So for example, if we take a salesperson and you know, we can always go to the old adage,

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_02]: salesperson shows up to the customer whether it's remote or in person and you know,

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_02]: the whole proverbial, hey, I'm going to show up and throw up all over you.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I was actually in a company the other day and I was asking them when you train your

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_02]: salespeople internally, what do you spend most of the time on? And inevitably they'll say,

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_02]: oh, product knowledge. And my response to a sales team is listen, I'm not an expert in your

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_02]: business. I'm not an expert in any of my clients business. I'm an expert in maximizing human potential.

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And what really shocks salespeople is 85% of the reason why people buy

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_02]: is due to the person's ability to communicate, connect and negotiate. Only 15% of the reasons

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_02]: why customers buy today is due to technical knowledge. Now I will say that to sales teams

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and they're like, come on Keith, we spend, you know, we have a three day onboarding process,

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_02]: two and a half days we spent on product knowledge and maybe a half a day we talk about sales.

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you know what? That's not what companies and clients want today. And that's why I say,

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and I don't say this to be presumptuous, I would say to any sales person, listen,

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_02]: if I was meeting with one of your clients and you were meeting with that same client,

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I would do a better job than you. And the reason why is because I am not an expert in

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_02]: their business. The only thing I have is the question. So rather than salespeople say, hey,

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I have these 150 slides that I'm going to share with you. I don't really care if you want to hear

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_02]: it or not. This is important to me and just do that data dump. That's not what companies want.

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_02]: That's not what customers want. They want to understand the human connection. Who am I buying

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_02]: from? Who is this person on the other end of this conference call? Who are you? Who are your values?

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Are we aligned? Not necessarily what they're selling. And I personally find that if I'm on a

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_02]: conference call for an hour today, where maybe five years ago spent five minutes or so doing

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_02]: that warm up and personal connection out of an hour of a meeting, I'm probably spending 30 minutes,

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_02]: if not more, just making that personal connection, learning about that person, learning about their

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_02]: family, learning about their hobbies, learning about their values to find that mutual connection.

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And one of the things that I see what people don't realize is, well, Keith, it's hard

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_02]: to sell in a virtual environment. To me, I would challenge that because if right now I'm in

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_02]: my office and if we were doing a video conference, I'd be in your office. So here we are taking

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_02]: a salesperson and a customer. It's customers in their home. I'm in my home. Now, we have never

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_02]: had this level of exposure into people's lives that we do today. So if I'm a salesperson and

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm in a customer's proverbial home looking in, think about all the opportunities that I can miss

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_02]: if I'm only focusing on my agenda. I can miss what's going on. I have my guitar here right off

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_02]: the bat. People are like, oh, Keith, you play music. Absolutely. Now, of course, we can go on a full

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_02]: tangent on that because that is one of my core values. But all of a sudden, we're in a conversation

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_02]: about music and concerts. And that's what people want because that's what people are missing.

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_02]: So if we look at one of the major transformations that salespeople need to go through, it's really

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_02]: focusing on the questions they need to ask. Number one, and more importantly than ever,

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_02]: salespeople stop making the sales process about you. If you take the relationship, there's the

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_02]: salesperson and there's the customer. And I ask salespeople, who is the sales process about?

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And inevitably they'll say, oh, it's about the customer. And I'll say, well, who are you

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_02]: making it about? And they'll stop and they'll think, I'm like, hmm, I'm making it about me.

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And I would ask them why. And they would sit and take that time to reflect. And it would say, well,

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, Keith, I got business to close. I have a quota. I got a target on my back. I have results

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_02]: to achieve because of that type of culture, that result-driven, metrics-driven culture

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_02]: that every organization basically is a global conundrum. We are so focused on getting to that

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_02]: end result. What we have to gain as a salesperson, I need to close this deal to hit my numbers or

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_02]: what we have to lose. And then we're motivated by fear. Oh my gosh, if I don't hit my number,

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to get my bonus or I may not have my job or I may put on the infamous

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_02]: performance improvement plan. So many salespeople today, unfortunately, are not motivated by

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_02]: pleasure. They're not motivated by the intrinsic things that truly drive people. They're motivated

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_02]: by fear today more than ever. And that comes at a great cost to our minds, our bodies, our spirit,

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_02]: our soul, because we're pushing for sales rather than taking the time to truly seek

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_02]: to understand where our customers are and their point of view.

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So would you recommend from sales management point of view that we don't focus as much on

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_01]: the numbers? Or how would you change kind of management structure, compensation incentives

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_01]: to get more better focus on the customer and their experience and their needs rather than

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_02]: the salesperson? So I want to be very clear. I hope that our audience here is not saying

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_02]: throw out your metrics, throw out your quotas and numbers and goals. I'm not saying that.

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm saying it's the way we achieve them because again, we are so focused on hitting

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_02]: numbers and quota. We're always focused on what's next. And if we're focused on what's next,

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_02]: we're not focused on what's now. We're not being present. We're not being able to engage

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_02]: with people in that personal level. Now I define sales as the art

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and language of creating new possibilities. I define leadership as the art and language

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_02]: of creating new possibilities. In the most simplistic form, sales and sales leadership

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_02]: is a language and it's a mindset and it's the language of coaching. So if you're result-driven,

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_02]: you're only focused on what you need to achieve. Where the transformation that needs to happen is

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_02]: we need to become more process driven because if we're process driven, where the result lives in

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_02]: the future, the process lives in the present. And if people can engage in that process,

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_02]: the process by default, the result will happen naturally. Yeah. Yeah. I always think of the

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_01]: stories, I think it was Zappos or somewhere like customer experience or customer service,

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_01]: things where all the metrics were turn around time on the calls in the traditional industry and

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_01]: they threw out those things because they wanted people to just talk to the customers. And even

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_01]: if you were going to be on the call for 15 minutes, as long as you're having a meaningful

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_01]: conversation, that was valuable. And the metrics that the rest of the industry was using were

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_01]: really getting in the way of that. And it took them to realize that really what's important

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_01]: is that the quality of the conversation, not how quickly you can turn it over.

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think there's really looking at those metrics, really looking at the

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_01]: metrics you have and how is it skewing people's interactions is what I see good

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_02]: organizations doing. Yeah. They're so focused on that. And while, I always love these catch

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_02]: phrases, sell value, connect deeper, give, foster better conversations with your customers

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_02]: what does that even mean? You can say that to your team all day long, but if you're not

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_02]: going deeper into what's talk about, what does that even sound like? Then we wonder why we have

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_01]: A players, B players and C players. Yeah. So for service companies, most of the listeners here

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_01]: are kind of related or involved with service companies. Like how does the sales process

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of become unique or different? I mean, if you're selling products, yeah, you have all this

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_01]: technical literature or you have these things you can touch and feel. If you're selling

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_01]: services, how do you kind of enhance this or how do you massage this to work for service kind of sales?

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure. The challenge that I hear and it definitely is something that I personally

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_02]: have a reaction to is, oh Keith, our product is a transactional sale. Or Keith,

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_02]: our product, it's kind of institutionalized. It's like everything else. Anyone else can buy this

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_02]: widget. It's the same widget from any company and that's our biggest challenge. And I would stop

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_02]: and say, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is where the mind shift has to happen is you have to

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_02]: find a way to position your product in a unique way. And I call that developing your

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_02]: compelling reasons is what is the benefit of the benefits benefit, the end result of the benefit

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_02]: that your customers are going to realize. They don't want to be pitched on again,

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_02]: product knowledge. They might not even care about the product knowledge. And what if we are

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_02]: the salespeople, which is the number one cause of lost sales, broken relationships and misquotas

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_02]: is assumptions. Salespeople are going into conversations assuming what their customers

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_02]: want to hear without seeking to understand what each individual wants on an individual basis.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So they're crafting their conversations around what their customers want rather than what they

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_01]: want. Yeah, any insights or is there any process that you recommend to get insights on

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_01]: some of those things that your customers want or potentially want so that you can really create

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_01]: some meaningful conversations? How do you suggest salespeople go into the process with this

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of structured curiosity so that you really make the conversation about the customer and what

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_01]: they're going through in their situation and what they're struggling with rather than

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_02]: the solution that you're trying to sell. Yeah, what I'm about to share is so easy

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_02]: but so difficult to implement. We need to detach from the outcome and that is not a go do and that's

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_02]: where people struggle. Okay, Keith, I need to detach from the outcome. What do I need to do?

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_02]: There's no go do here. It's a go be. So detaching from the outcome means separating yourself

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_02]: from what you want and focusing on truly giving value unconditionally in every conversation

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_02]: regardless of whether people buy from you or not. And one of the things that I see as a

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_02]: missed opportunity is in every conversation that salespeople are having, whether they win a sale,

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_02]: whether they lose a sale, the missed opportunity is they can garnish and aggregate so much intel

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_02]: from their clients or misclients that they're not doing. In other words, interview your clients.

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_02]: You can do some incredible market research on if you sold a deal, Mr. or Mrs. customer

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_02]: in the most simplistic form. Why did you buy from me? And conversely, Mr. or Mrs. customer,

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_02]: what could I have done differently that would have gotten you more engaged with our conversation

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_02]: or the opportunity for us to work together? That's valuable insight that you're getting

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_02]: firsthand from the people that you're speaking with every day. Yeah, I'm always surprised how

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_01]: infrequently people do retrospectives and talk to their customers post sale to kind of understand

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_01]: what worked and what didn't. I think it's one of the best sources of insight. So I really appreciate

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_02]: it. And the biggest problem is then they end the call and they just assume what didn't work.

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Give you a perfect example, let's say a manager is doing a forecast review with one of their

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_02]: salespeople and there's three deals in their pipeline that they're reviewing

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_02]: and the salesperson says to their manager, okay, Mr. or Mrs. manager, deal A, close,

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_02]: just got the contract. Deal B, it's looking good. I spoke to the client. They're having a final debrief

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and then they're going to be sending me the contract next week. However, deal C,

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_02]: it's dead. It's dead in the water. And the manager typically will say, okay,

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_02]: okay, well that's good. We got two out of three. We'll get them next time. Good job.

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_02]: That is a massive miss coaching opportunity. And what the manager needs is to change the

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_02]: conversation they're having with their salespeople. It's not just about, okay, we'll get them next

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_02]: time. Okay, let's do another review next week. It's, well, wait a second. Why are you saying that?

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Why do you feel that way? And this is where the assumptions come in and run rampant where

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_02]: the manager can truly uncover a massive coaching moment. And from the salesperson they'll hear, well,

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I had a really good first conversation with that one prospect and they asked me to send them

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_02]: some information and I sent them our brochure and our collateral material and I never heard back.

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_02]: So I gave them a call, left the voicemail, nothing. I pinged them on LinkedIn, nothing.

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And I sent them three or four emails, nothing. So I'm assuming they're not interested in buying

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_02]: from me and they bought from someone else. Well that is a massive costly assumption where the

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_02]: manager needs to go very simply is, is that what the customer told you? And the salespeople

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_02]: persons will say well, not exactly. And this is an opportunity for managers to leverage what I

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_02]: call one of the seven types of coaching questions is an expansion question. And that can sound like,

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_02]: well, Mr. or Mrs. Salesperson, what else can be true? And the salesperson said, what do you mean,

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_02]: what else could be true? They haven't had a chance to get back to me. Oh, okay. Well,

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_02]: what else could be possible? And they're out sick or someone in their family is sick,

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_02]: God forbid. Okay, well, what else might be true? The proposal I sent wound up in their spam box.

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, what else might be possible? They're still in the process of reviewing the final proposal

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_02]: with several other stakeholders before they get back to me since there are more people

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_02]: involved in decision making today than ever before. Well all of a sudden we've just unpacked

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_02]: several massive assumptions and the root causes the salesperson never collected the evidence.

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah. Well, I think there's also a corollary which is kind of a corollary of life,

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_01]: which is we always assume that everyone else is thinking about us. Like it's about us.

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Chances are it has nothing to do with you. It may impact you.

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Keep this a bit of pleasure. If people want to find out more about you, the work that

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_01]: you do, the books that you've written, what's the best way to get that information?

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_02]: First and foremost, please I would implore everyone to connect with me on LinkedIn or

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Twitter. I'm always posting new great content. KeithRosen.com just launched our new website.

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I have several new eBooks there. I alluded to one of them. People can go on my website

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_02]: and download the seven types of sales coaching questions. Those are questions that work if

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_02]: you're a sales manager or a salesperson that will be a game changer, as well as having my newsletter

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and some other resources that I'm currently offering such as free workshops for companies today.

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_02]: There are so many companies out there struggling. I'm at a point where I want to give back. If

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_02]: a company is struggling, I will happily offer them a half hour an hour time with their sales

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_02]: managers or their sales leaders just to support them over that one hour because it will make a

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_02]: massive impact just in the way they're thinking, getting their head straight, getting focused on

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_02]: what we talked about today so they can at least leave a call with some strategies and a new

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_02]: mindset to be able to approach their business. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_02]: much for taking the time today. Oh, it's deeply my pleasure and certainly hope you

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_02]: made an impact with all your listeners today. You've been listening to Scaling Up Services

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_00]: with business coach Bruce Eckbelt. To find a full list of podcast episodes, download the tools

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and worksheets and access other great content, visit the website at scalingupservices.com

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and don't forget to sign up for the free newsletter at scalingupservices.com slash

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_01]: newsletter. This podcast is a part of the C-suite radio network. For more top business

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_01]: podcasts, visit c-suiteradio.com.