Michael Walford-Grant, Founder, Director of MDWG Consulting Ltd

[00:00:00] Your listening to Scaling Up Services, where we speak with entrepreneurs, authors, business

[00:00:06] experts and thought leaders to give you the knowledge and insights you need to scale

[00:00:10] your service-based business faster and easier.

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[00:01:20] Now back to our episode.

[00:01:23] Welcome everyone.

[00:01:24] This is Scaling Up Services.

[00:01:25] I'm Bruce Heckfeld.

[00:01:26] I'm your host.

[00:01:27] Our guest today is Michael Walfour Grant.

[00:01:29] He is the author of Sales Unplugged, the invaluable go-to guide for busy B2B sales people.

[00:01:34] We're going to talk about the world of sales.

[00:01:36] We're going to talk about services.

[00:01:38] This is a really hot topic for me.

[00:01:40] I think one of the biggest challenges that companies have in terms of scaling, particularly

[00:01:44] service companies, is how to really systematize sales and make it strategic, making something

[00:01:49] that's predictable and repeatable, and something that people can really build an engine

[00:01:55] around.

[00:01:56] We're going to talk to Michael about this, his experience, what he's learned, talk about

[00:02:00] the book, and what he's helping companies with.

[00:02:02] I'm excited about this.

[00:02:03] He's a hot topic and I'm really interested in hearing Michael's experiences in background

[00:02:08] in what he has to say.

[00:02:09] With all that, Michael, welcome to the program.

[00:02:11] Thank you very much, Bruce.

[00:02:13] Welcome.

[00:02:14] Hi.

[00:02:15] You're British accent.

[00:02:16] I love it.

[00:02:17] I love it.

[00:02:18] I love it.

[00:02:19] So I'm curious before we dig into the book and I kind of what you're doing today in terms

[00:02:24] of helping companies with sales process, what was the background?

[00:02:27] How did you get into sales?

[00:02:28] Give us a little bit of the story.

[00:02:30] Tell us the journey that you've been on.

[00:02:32] Thanks a lot.

[00:02:33] OK.

[00:02:34] So it goes back a bit scary.

[00:02:36] It goes back to the late 1980s.

[00:02:38] I really am dating myself and I actually recall working in a more administrative role

[00:02:45] and working for NCR.

[00:02:46] In fact, we were one of the pioneers, would you believe, of PCs, personal computers?

[00:02:53] And so I was one of the early office staff to get them as helping the finance manager

[00:02:59] and learn spreadsheets and word processing and things like that.

[00:03:03] And I did actually get into a bit of programming and acting in pre-sales.

[00:03:08] So supporting salespeople, they bring clients in and we would show certain technologies

[00:03:14] mostly hardware but sometimes software as was emerging at that time.

[00:03:18] And I soon discovered I was much better at the client facing work and not so good at

[00:03:25] the programming.

[00:03:26] So that really helped me decide to follow the sales path.

[00:03:31] And so I joined NCR, one of the big account teams.

[00:03:35] And in fact we get the opportunity.

[00:03:37] I've an anecdote around that which is quite an interesting one and pioneering at the time

[00:03:42] regarding services and packaging up services.

[00:03:46] So yeah, I got my grounding at NCR which was really valuable because they train salespeople

[00:03:52] properly.

[00:03:53] So I went on all the formal courses and that really was the foundation for my career going

[00:04:00] forward.

[00:04:01] Because after that I've tended to work for much smaller companies.

[00:04:06] And there of course those companies don't have training budgets.

[00:04:11] And therefore I realize very soon that if I didn't take the initiative and keep learning

[00:04:17] myself that I could soon become an irrelevance dinosaur in the industry and I wouldn't be able

[00:04:24] to sustain a long career.

[00:04:26] So yeah, I work for smaller companies and what I've tended to and I fell into it.

[00:04:33] There was no real great planning but I fell into a specialist role which is like a first

[00:04:40] man in role.

[00:04:41] So what I've tended to do is specialize in opening up an office, so a foreign based company,

[00:04:48] foreign in terms of not in the UK, wish to enter the UK market and they may have had some

[00:04:53] success in their home markets and now wish to expand into the UK.

[00:04:58] And I have been hired as their first man in which has you know setting up an office may

[00:05:04] be hiring a couple of people but then taking their offering to market.

[00:05:09] And so I've done that quite successfully, contributed very proud to have contributed to private

[00:05:16] companies you know exiting at a good equity ratio than been involved in three or four of

[00:05:23] those.

[00:05:24] And then about four years ago decided if I didn't do it now I never would and started up

[00:05:30] my own sales consultancy and really have retained that focus and specialisation.

[00:05:36] So it's small niche businesses typically, usually software but I've done software and services

[00:05:43] and services only and it's representing them over here in the UK on a consulting basis.

[00:05:51] So either doing sales health checks, helping them put together sales strategies and in

[00:05:57] many cases being feet on the street you know they want someone to take their product

[00:06:02] and offering to market and sell it.

[00:06:05] So that kind of brings me up to today.

[00:06:07] And then that's what we'll perhaps talk about later and that really led into the book.

[00:06:12] Yeah, let's do I would love to kind of just define sales a little bit because I think

[00:06:16] that's one challenge a lot of companies have is like what do we call sales?

[00:06:20] What do we not call sales in particular?

[00:06:22] Like what is sort of marketing or lead development versus sales versus account management?

[00:06:27] Like I guess where do you kind of draw some lines or break points between some of these

[00:06:32] business processes?

[00:06:33] Hmm, okay.

[00:06:35] Probably sales is the person that I'd say closes the deal but you know has to follow the

[00:06:41] process all the way through from the very early stages to the very end and very much lead

[00:06:48] that process and we can get into some ways in which the industry has changed where it's

[00:06:53] more a buying process now.

[00:06:55] Bruce as I'm sure you've heard rather than a selling process when I first started out

[00:07:01] in sales there's a not such subtle difference between the two terms but let's park that

[00:07:08] for one minute.

[00:07:09] So in terms of the engagement with the prospect and moving them through the various stages

[00:07:15] that are typical for let's say a typical B2B sale of a certain value so it's not a commodity

[00:07:23] item but it's a value add service or a value add software offering with services which

[00:07:30] will require to go through various stages and so the sales person's responsibility is

[00:07:37] managing that whole process coordinating their own internal resources as required whether

[00:07:43] it's a pre-sale specialist IT architect, subject matter expert in a particular segment

[00:07:50] and then helping the prospect identify what the need is with the prospect matching that

[00:07:57] need building a compelling business case working with the client to build that compelling

[00:08:03] business case and really supporting them in buying.

[00:08:06] I think that's a term maybe one of the terms to take away is a salesman's role is to support

[00:08:13] the buy up to buy it's not necessary to sell.

[00:08:17] Yeah and there's a subtle difference but it is an important one is fishing in this day

[00:08:21] and age where prospects are so well informed around the market that they operate in.

[00:08:28] Yeah tell me more about that because I think that's an interesting kind of mindset shift

[00:08:32] of you know going from this thing you know my job is to get them to buy something and

[00:08:36] more of like I'm a consultant to help them make a choice like how does that affect

[00:08:40] spot on your approach to things?

[00:08:42] Yeah absolutely and you know one of the reasons you and I even got together is you printed

[00:08:49] it you did an article the five best or most inferential sales books or sales books you must read

[00:08:55] and one of them is the challenger sale now that was actually written in 2011 which in the

[00:09:01] you know in sproes of business is a lifetime ago but it is still so relevant today and it really

[00:09:08] is the foundation upon the approach that I take and I think all successful selling people take

[00:09:14] them that it's talking to prospects about what their peers are doing what the trends in the industry

[00:09:20] are doing you know putting a little bit of fear in them saying that this is no longer a nice to have

[00:09:26] but a must have because if you don't you're going to fall behind or how do you want to support

[00:09:32] your five-year strategy and if that's your strategy and your ambition can we help you to get there

[00:09:39] incremental steps so it is very much about being a trusted advisor being able to add value every time

[00:09:47] that you meet a prospect so that they want to meet you again because if you're not adding value

[00:09:52] this isn't going to get fed up meeting with you and therefore they won't take up your meetings

[00:09:58] and they'll start talking with your competition so it is very much that prospects need that guidance

[00:10:05] or value that guidance that a supplier can provide and it's not just a here's my product here's my

[00:10:12] service these are the features these are the benefits that really is a bit old school and that's

[00:10:18] all a bit in the past now yeah so tell me a little bit more about the book I mean how did it come

[00:10:23] about like what was the purpose read the book like tell me a little bit about writing it itself

[00:10:27] yeah sure so as I alluded to fortunately one of the good decisions I've made in my life

[00:10:35] was early on when I joined those smaller companies is diligently keeping myself up today and keep

[00:10:42] improving myself skills and so throughout that you know 20-25-30 years I've diligently you know read

[00:10:51] book books, read books newspaper articles webinars and such like and I've made copious notes

[00:10:59] of each of them because if you've got a two or two hundred and fifty page book on negotiations

[00:11:05] when you're going into negotiation you haven't done one for six months because you're selling high

[00:11:09] value services or products or solutions you're up against a professional buyer that's doing it

[00:11:16] five days a week 10 hours a day and you're going to get absolutely mulled now you haven't got the

[00:11:22] time to read a 250-page book again so what you need is the key points drawn from that book and so I

[00:11:32] did make a load of these notes so when I start that myself's consultancy one of the most popular

[00:11:37] services I offer is a sales health check and what I do is I go into a company and I just critique

[00:11:44] their sales processes so how do they present to prospects if they've got a software system

[00:11:50] how do they demonstrate it what is their sales and marketing collateral what's the website

[00:11:56] what's their value proposition is the messaging consistent is it compelling particularly is

[00:12:02] it uniquely different from their competition so really just doing a health check and then

[00:12:07] producing a report and issuing that as a deliverable and what I was finding is that there were a lot

[00:12:14] of best practices that they weren't following so presentations is one of my sort of bug bears

[00:12:21] in this day it's still absolutely staggers me Bruce at the different quality of presentations

[00:12:29] that suppliers deliver some are very good and some are absolutely awful it's like I wouldn't even

[00:12:37] be doing it back in the 80s and 90s feature function too many words on the screen on the

[00:12:43] slide all that sort of thing I just started producing these best practices and delivering those with

[00:12:50] the report and then had the light bulb moment saying oh hang on I've just done that three times one

[00:12:56] was you know negotiations one was sales presentation one was you know writing a business development email

[00:13:04] or something there's a book in this yeah exactly and so I thought right well let's give it a go

[00:13:10] and I you know went into those 400 different items that I'd saved over the years and drew them

[00:13:17] all together into 24 chapters and it pretty much follows the all the main processes that a sales

[00:13:24] person would follow from you know they're given a territory what's an ideal customer business

[00:13:30] development prospecting getting a first meeting etc ride the way through to negotiating a final

[00:13:38] contract and looking after themselves you know not getting too stressed and things like that yeah

[00:13:44] yeah I guess who are you writing to right give me a sense of the ideal listener or the

[00:13:48] profession that you really want to be speaking to in helping so in terms of the book what has been

[00:13:53] particularly satisfying is that you know the book was published a couple of months ago and

[00:13:59] you know I've received some good very good reviews and very pleased and very flatter by some of

[00:14:05] them but the important point terms of your question is that a lot of people this was my objective

[00:14:12] saying it suited whether you're you know an old veteran like me with gray hairs and you know

[00:14:17] lines under my eyes or you're just starting out in the industry and that was always my intention

[00:14:23] but you never know whether you are really relevant for the younger let's experience sales person

[00:14:30] because I'm not that you know I can only imagine what it's like but what I knew one of the motivations

[00:14:37] and why I was confident that it would be good for the more experienced sales person like myself

[00:14:44] is that I do make mistakes you know I might take me three months to secure a meeting with a

[00:14:51] prospect that I've desperately wanted to meet and then you get that meeting you have the meeting

[00:14:56] you walk out okay well that didn't go very well you know it's because you were complacent you

[00:15:02] didn't prepare for yeah you know you didn't have a clear idea in your head how you were going to

[00:15:07] advance your prospect your sale as a result of that meeting and so that was very much the premise

[00:15:14] and and because you know the topic of this podcast is scaling services it is also really suited

[00:15:22] for business owners and for you know if you're a consulting company a lot of my observations

[00:15:29] and I've worked in firms that are services only nothing to do with software products

[00:15:36] and it is the senior consultants isn't it the subject matter experts are responsible for winning

[00:15:42] new business yeah they were never trained on selling you know they're very articulate professional

[00:15:49] business people the expert in whatever subject their experts in but they don't know how to sell

[00:15:56] they don't and therefore I really feel when I've had some positive responses back on there is that

[00:16:03] this is a book very suited to those type of profile of people as well not just traditional

[00:16:10] B2B sales people yeah I guess how much do you feel in general that you know someone needs to be

[00:16:16] an expert in the service or able to deliver the service to be able to sell the service or do you

[00:16:21] feel like you know a good sales professional can learn how to sell something even if they don't

[00:16:26] have proficiency like selling loss or legal services or something like you don't need to be a really

[00:16:31] expert lawyer to sell legal services or do you or how much do you need to know about the service

[00:16:36] no I don't believe you do otherwise I wouldn't have had the career I've had because I've been

[00:16:41] selling to banking organisations mostly and I've never worked in a bank now my responsibility

[00:16:48] of course is to be able to have sufficient knowledge to understand the challenges and risks

[00:16:55] and problems that the prospect wants to solve and be able to understand those and then be able

[00:17:01] to then relate those and match those to the service I'm selling that's what I feel

[00:17:07] a sales responsibility is now the more knowledge they have of the prospects business then the

[00:17:16] better without doubt but just having that skill alone I don't think it's sufficient and I've

[00:17:22] seen that with my own eyes you know I work for a consulting company that was selling like regulatory

[00:17:29] controls and knowledge of FCA regulations and things like that and they were brilliant at that

[00:17:36] but you know they couldn't sell at all and you know they really needed both and they didn't have it so

[00:17:43] yeah yeah so tell us a few of the kind of recommendations you're giving in terms of process or techniques

[00:17:49] or mindset like what do you think is really important that people take away from the book

[00:17:53] in terms of understanding how to be a great salesperson yeah I think we've touched on a few of them

[00:17:58] it's very much now that you know you need to be able to be delivering value be a trusted advisor

[00:18:06] and a thought leader and be able to provide insight to your prospect as to what's coming around the

[00:18:13] corner and what they should be prepared for and planning for there's a term that I picked up

[00:18:19] some years ago which I really like and it's called unconsidered need so it's reasonable to assume

[00:18:25] that every sales organization will be competing with something whatever it might be

[00:18:32] and one way of differentiating is if you can highlight to a prospect an unconsidered need and what

[00:18:38] that is is a need the prospect hadn't considered that they needed but once they discussed it

[00:18:45] and realised it from you they realised that they did now if you can do that and your competition

[00:18:52] isn't that would really set you apart from the crowd and to do that you have to know their business

[00:18:58] you have to know trends in the industry and invest some time in you know reading reports

[00:19:04] and insightful blogs and articles around your segment so that would be one certainly one

[00:19:11] thing the other that you really need to focus on is the biggest competition is not the other

[00:19:19] supplier or another consulting company it is no decision yet let's do nothing that's right exactly

[00:19:27] so you know status quo I'll just show my age and my background I love them as a rock band but

[00:19:34] they are the biggest threat to any organization that's looking to scale sales and business

[00:19:41] now the best way of overcoming that and you can't overcome it always is building compelling

[00:19:48] business cases and so it is a key responsibility for any client facing individual to be very

[00:19:56] attuned to how to build a business case try and build up enough trust and relationship with

[00:20:02] your buyer to be able to work with them and assist them and support them in putting together a

[00:20:08] compelling business case and that'll be made up of both quantifiable and unquantifiable factors

[00:20:15] so the needs in most cases to be you know some commercial return on investment but also the softer

[00:20:22] things you know like driving out operational risking your reputation in the market if you

[00:20:28] know you make a mistake that involves fines from a FCA or something like that so I think the focus

[00:20:36] on building a business case is important and from sort of presentation and differentiating yourself

[00:20:44] from the competition most buyers are overwhelmed by information and they need to be able to relate

[00:20:52] something to you as the offering and so consistent messaging that is sufficiently different and

[00:20:59] stands out from your competition from other alternatives they're considering I feel is something

[00:21:06] that is overlooked often overlooked by setting organization is something you really ought to

[00:21:13] focus yeah it gets you generally find that there's sort of a sector effective sales kind

[00:21:18] of strategies or processes or techniques are based on you know helping people achieve something

[00:21:24] they want or avoid something they don't want like a positive like getting them somewhere or reducing

[00:21:32] risk or addressing fears yeah what a great question and my instinct is to have the positive one but

[00:21:40] all the research shows that you're more likely to get action when people do it to avoid a downside

[00:21:50] and they you know they do these going in the street don't they inflict a coin and they give double

[00:21:57] the return if it goes a certain way and people are less motivated to make a profit but much more

[00:22:05] motivated to avoid a risk of low loss so I think there's real merit in that you know selling on fear

[00:22:13] but that fear can be a positive fear it can be fear of missing out on new business opportunities

[00:22:19] it can be fear of competition overtaking you in certain areas and so I guess the best value

[00:22:27] proposition is solutions that avoid that risk but also add positives on top and then you get the

[00:22:35] best of both worlds and then you've got a more compelling business case yeah what are some of the

[00:22:39] other techniques or things that you cover in the book that would help you know sales people with

[00:22:43] you know understanding kind of process and strategy good let's pick two one is the business

[00:22:51] development email there have been thousands of books written on that wonderful wonderful topic

[00:23:00] and I don't claim that my book will give you the secret to getting every email replied to with a

[00:23:10] positive yes I'd love to have a talk with you but I do feel that the guidance I provide in the book

[00:23:18] is pretty well tried and tested I think one thing I would just loot to is the book whilst it

[00:23:25] refers back to some you know good traditional sales skills and one thing it also incorporates a

[00:23:30] lot of modern thinking I'm a big fan on without getting too crazy but this newrology of buying

[00:23:39] and selling and how our brains work you know I don't think we really understand how the brain

[00:23:45] works particularly well and so there are certain techniques that one can employ when you're

[00:23:51] client facing that just improve those chances so one of the second topic in the book that I'm

[00:23:58] particularly proud of and something I'll try and work quite hard on is sales presentations I

[00:24:03] alluded to that topic earlier in our conversation but there are certain techniques that one can employ

[00:24:10] that provide a much more that improves the likelihood of the prospect remembering you so there's

[00:24:18] a great statistic quoted and it's frightening really within 24 hours the prospect that you've

[00:24:26] just met will only recall up to 10% of what you said now okay so it's not great but you've got

[00:24:35] to work with that so if that's what the outcome is you have a responsibility to ensure

[00:24:42] it's the 10% you want to remember it absolutely yeah so therefore there are techniques and it's

[00:24:51] not rocket science it's just having clear value proposition and recurring message and a recurring

[00:24:58] theme that recurs throughout your materials and in that way they'll remember what you're about

[00:25:06] and if that's what you want to be remembered for then that's very likely to improve in

[00:25:12] improved sales effects I mean it's just that you know kind of less as more and we have to hear

[00:25:17] something six times you know before we actually hear it or absolutely land no no no that's

[00:25:23] absolutely right and you know it may not come naturally to a lot of us because we might feel

[00:25:28] it's patronising or whatever it is but you know if you want to be successful in the scale your

[00:25:34] business then there's the kind of techniques that are you know tried and trusted and I was

[00:25:40] strongly recommend that you adopt them yeah and I guess what do you hope the impact is of the book

[00:25:46] like do you have goals around readership around you know helping your own business like give us a

[00:25:51] sense of where you want the impact well I hope this doesn't come over in the wrong way but I'm

[00:25:56] really proud of the career and then profession I have now you know I imagine a lot of people might

[00:26:04] say that but when you come through as a salesperson Bruce you'll appreciate that you know for some

[00:26:12] people if you say you're in sales they just think of you as a double glazing sales guy or

[00:26:17] something that is all foot in the door you know trying to sell you on something you don't want

[00:26:23] and so on and so you know I think I endured that along with all my other colleagues many many years

[00:26:29] ago but as you know the profession has now become very professional and the sheer breadth of topics

[00:26:37] and skills and knowledge that a you know sophisticated B2B salesperson selling high value offerings

[00:26:46] has to be familiar with and master is very broad we've got to know you know finance and contracts

[00:26:54] and terms and selling and managing meeting and managing people and leadership and all these things

[00:27:01] so you know they're quite challenging roles so really my aspiration for the book is that I'm

[00:27:07] prove salespeople and that they get better and better and better have more and more success and the

[00:27:14] reputation of these you know salespeople improves over time so that people do respect them in

[00:27:21] the same way they might respect you know lawyer and accountant and such like so but yeah

[00:27:27] and it's not been IEVE it should assist me in my business it gives me more credentials and

[00:27:34] credibility and yeah the publishing of the book is with a major US publisher but so I've invested my

[00:27:41] amount in it so if I can get that back so I'll set up a big good yeah I think it's a great point

[00:27:47] I mean I think you know a lot of people kind of have this vision or this feeling of you know kind

[00:27:53] of the used card salesmen right really kind of you know trying to convince you do something you

[00:27:56] really don't want to do but I think you know really good high quality salespeople are critical to

[00:28:03] not only businesses but to buyers right like a buyer doesn't understand what they really need

[00:28:08] and what they're going to get and does it fit those needs right it can be you know it's a win-win

[00:28:14] really good salespeople make this a win-win and ultimately really good salespeople make a lot of money

[00:28:19] they are often the most highly paid professionals inside a lot of organizations particularly service

[00:28:25] companies because it is such a critical role for these companies yeah absolutely agree absolutely

[00:28:30] agree this has been great Michael if people want to find out more about you more about the book what's

[00:28:34] the best way to get that information great well one of the benefits of having a reasonably

[00:28:40] unusual name is that there's only one of me on LinkedIn and so just to make things really simple

[00:28:47] Michael Wolff grad with a hyphen between the Wolfford and the I'll call it grant I know you pronounce

[00:28:54] it great on LinkedIn please have a look and send me a message and I'll be more than happy to take up any

[00:29:04] conversations and the further questions you have as you would expect there's plenty of posts from

[00:29:10] me about the book but it is available from all the popular retailers you know bonds are noble

[00:29:17] etc etc and isn't very good very good I'll make sure that all that information the URL to you

[00:29:22] to your LinkedIn and to the book and everything around the show now to people who get that

[00:29:25] Michael it's been an absolute pleasure thank you so much for taking the time today pleasure really

[00:29:30] enjoy it Bruce thank you very much you've been listening to scaling up services with business coach

[00:29:36] Bruce Eckfeld to find a full list of podcast episodes download the tools and worksheets

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