Scaling Service Businesses: Aligning Sales, Marketing, and AI with Jeff Pedowitz

[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_00]: You're listening to Scaling Up Services, where we speak with entrepreneurs, authors,

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_00]: business experts, and thought leaders to give you the knowledge and insights you need to

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_00]: scale your service-based business faster and easier.

[00:00:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And now, here is your host, business coach Bruce Eckfeldt.

[00:00:19] [SPEAKER_01]: This episode of Scaling Up Services is brought to you by Dash VA.

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Dash VA provides virtual assistant services for growing businesses.

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Everything from managing emails and schedules to top-notch research and marketing support.

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Dash VA has revolutionized my day-to-day operations, taking on all of the nitty-gritty so that

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I can focus on the tasks that really matter.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And let me tell you, it's not just about getting the job done.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_01]: It's about how they do it, with efficiency, dedication, and a keen understanding of my

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_01]: business needs.

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're an entrepreneur or small business owner, having a great virtual assistant is

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_01]: not just a convenience.

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_01]: It's your secret weapon.

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_01]: It allows you to focus on what you do best, growing your business.

[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_01]: You know what they say, if you don't have an assistant, you are the assistant.

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So if you're ready to join the virtual revolution and supercharge your productivity, visit dashva.nyc

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_01]: to learn more about how they can help you elevate your business.

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_01]: With Dash VA, it's not just about success.

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_01]: It's about partnering with a team that's committed to your mission.

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Visit dashva.nyc to learn more.

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, back to our episode.

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome, everyone.

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_01]: This is Scaling Up Services.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Bruce Hekvelt.

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm your host.

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Our guest today is Jeff Petowitz.

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_01]: He is an author.

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_01]: He is a CEO.

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_01]: He's a founder.

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to talk to him about sales and growth and revenue.

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, a big issue for most companies, a big issue for most growth companies, how

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_01]: do we grow the company is generally focused on how do we grow sales and revenue?

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_01]: How do we get client engagement?

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_01]: How do we market?

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_01]: How do we get leads?

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_01]: How do we close leads?

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And really, how do we evolve the systems and the technology and the processes that we have

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_01]: is a big part of the growth process.

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm excited for this.

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Jeff has some really interesting background.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_01]: He's got some interesting insights, some great tools.

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_01]: He's also an author.

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to hear about some of the books he's written and some of the work he's done.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm excited for this.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_01]: There's going to be, I'm sure, some really great takeaways for folks looking to grow

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and scale.

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So with all that, Jeff, welcome to the program.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_01]: JEFF PETOWITZ Awesome, Bruce.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Glad to be here.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_01]: BRUCE HEKVELT Yeah, it's a pleasure.

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Before we dive into everything you're doing today and AI and revenue,

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_01]: give us a little background.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess professionally, what have you been doing in the past?

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_01]: How did you get into this work?

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_01]: How did you get into sales and revenue growth?

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Give us a little story.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_01]: JEFF PETOWITZ Well, the whole life story.

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_02]: BRUCE HEKVELT Ready?

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_02]: 30 seconds.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Go.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_02]: JEFF PETOWITZ Hey.

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I actually got my career started in the restaurant business and franchising

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_02]: along with my dad.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I owned and operated 35 Subway sandwich store.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_03]: BRUCE HEKVELT Oh, wow.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_02]: JEFF PETOWITZ So got a really good operational discipline,

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I think.

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure been part of my DNA.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_02]: But have always loved technology, sales, and marketing.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_02]: So this is, of course, not to age myself too much.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_02]: In the 90s, the internet was getting going and all my friends but one were in software

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_02]: and they would tease me mercilessly, which is for the rest of your life.

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So I ended up selling out my shares to my dad, picked up some programming certificates,

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_02]: and went over to work at Computer Associates.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And then really just started my lifelong love affair with enterprise software.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_02]: So had different roles in consulting.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I moved around to a couple of startups and ran marketing and worked in channels.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And in the early 2000s, I was working with an early Salesforce competitor called SalesNet.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And we brought in Eloqua to help generate leads for our channel partners and resellers.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that was one of those, the skies opened up calling to me moments.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Really, I just fell in love with everything that Eloqua had so much so I went to work for them

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_02]: as their first director of professional services.

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And then a couple of years later, as we were watching all the partners really start to grow

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_02]: their businesses with IP that my team and I were creating, I said, hey, I can do this.

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_02]: So hung up our shingle in 2007 and it's been a rocket ship ever since.

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm sure.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess what do you feel like you were doing well or what gave you that kind of traction

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and that acceleration?

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Like what did you figure out or what was the value you're creating for companies?

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think sometimes this within all markets are being in the right place at the right time.

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I think in that time period, right around 2007, the market was ripe for disruption.

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_02]: B2B marketing was really starting to change.

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Marketing's role was really starting to come into a sharper focus,

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_02]: not being an arts and crafts department, but being expected to contribute and drive revenue.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And there really just was a lack of tools, processes, training, and skills.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Most marketers at that time, I mean, these concepts today that we take for granted here

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_02]: 20 years later, demand generation, lead generation, account-based marketing, and such.

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, these were not even in the lexicon.

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_02]: But there was a ripe opportunity.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't just us, of course.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_02]: You had companies like Sirius Decisions building advisory practices on helping sales and marketing

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_02]: figuring out how to systematically grow.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And then, of course, you had the MarTech revolution, which at that time, I don't think anyone could

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_02]: foresee that we're going to have tens of thousands of companies.

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_02]: But that also really paved the way.

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And then when you had the big guys like Salesforce and Microsoft and Adobe and Oracle kind of buying

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_02]: in and consolidating and the money flowing in from private equity, it really just kind of created this

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_02]: 20-year growth window of a bit of an arms race, I guess.

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, just buy, invest in processes, invest in marketing and revenue operations,

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_02]: really engage the buyer digitally.

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And then, of course, along the way, we have all these new channels that we didn't even

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_02]: have in 2007.

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, in 2007, Facebook was only three years old.

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_02]: It was a year old.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_02]: The mobile phone, the smartphone was just launched that year from Apple.

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_02]: We didn't have Instagram, TikTok, other things.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_02]: So a lot has changed really in just a short and very fast-paced 20 years.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And along the way, the buying process in B2B has changed considerably.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Back in 2007, buyers were already good 60%, 70% into their purchase cycle before they

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_02]: wanted to talk to a salesperson.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Today, it's over 90%.

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And there's a lot more channels.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot more content.

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And no matter what your industry is, if you're in B2B, you've seen a lot of changes and disruption

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_02]: the last five to 10 years.

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And today, sales cycles are much longer, much more decision makers.

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Budgets are highly scrutinized with multiple levels.

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And if everybody out there has access to this information and content and tools, then even

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_02]: if they're only doing it OK, it's just creating a lot of noise in the marketplace.

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's harder and harder for businesses that even have great products, great services,

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_02]: great people to differentiate and find their targeted customer in the market.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's against that backdrop that my company exists.

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just helping companies figure all this out.

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And how do you drive revenue in a scalable way?

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So I guess, tell me a little bit about the books.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_01]: What is the knowledge or the systems or the content that you've developed that you've

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_01]: been able to put in these books and really get out into the market?

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So my first book that I wrote called F the Funnel was really built on a concept that

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_02]: we brought to market back in 2015, which is recognizing that the funnel itself, which

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_02]: of course we all use forever.

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_02]: It's really just a company construct based upon manufacturing.

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_02]: How do we help forecast our own business?

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Which makes sense.

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we're trying to run systems as a company, but it really has nothing to do at

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_02]: all with the customer.

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the customer doesn't envision themselves going through a funnel.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Of course not.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, oh, hey, you're in awareness stage.

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, that's not how they think.

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So with F the Funnel, we're saying, look, that's not really customer engagement, customer

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_02]: focused.

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_02]: We presented more of a full infinity loop concept, which is how do you align with your

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_02]: customer where they are?

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you stop forecasting, but you do start focusing on whether the activities, the

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_02]: content, the skills, the engagement, the touch points, that sales, marketing, service,

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_02]: operations, finance, procurement, et cetera.

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_02]: What does the customer need at any given point?

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And how do we make sure that we're in alignment with them so that we are starting to build

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_02]: our sales and marketing processes and systems around the customer versus around ourselves?

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's really what we focused on in that book, which is how do you build better

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_02]: relationships?

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And the second book, AI Revenue Architect, which at the beginning of last year, just

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_02]: really focused on how businesses can unlock the potential of AI to really grow their revenue

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and their business.

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And everyone is looking for an edge, whether it's to save money, to become more efficient,

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_02]: to be more productive, to get more data insights.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And the fact is AI has been around for a long time.

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just that chat GPT has just brought it much closer for us.

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_02]: We could talk to the machine that talks back and it does stuff for us, and that's cool.

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_02]: But AI has been around since 1950s, since Alan Turing invented it.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_02]: But today, I mean, so if we thought that MarTech grew a lot, it took MarTech about 15, 20 years

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_02]: to get to over 15,000 applications.

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I, in less than a year, there's over 50,000.

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, it just exploded.

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And in part because of course, no AI can write code really well and there's platforms for

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_02]: generating tools and software.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_02]: So the innovation game has just jumped up to magnitude.

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_02]: But within that landscape, of course, no practical human being, myself included, can keep track

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_02]: of 50,000 applications.

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_02]: But the categories and the use cases are still relevant.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And so AI is some, doesn't have to be an elusive concept.

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_02]: It's how do you invest in the right types of tools and software that have AI as part of

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_02]: them so that we can be more effective in sales, marketing, HR, IT, finance operations.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And there are dozens of applications in all business departments now that solve real use

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_02]: cases and they're relatively affordable.

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, before we kind of dive into all the kind of AI stuff going on, I'd love to just

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of get a sense from you, from just kind of a process or a model or a strategy.

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_01]: For companies that are going through kind of this growth phase, right?

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So going from a couple million to a couple hundred million of revenue, what are the kind

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_01]: of the big breakpoints or the big issues that start to come up, particularly for service

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_01]: companies here where you need to really kind of think about or change either your strategy

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_01]: or mindset?

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I find that so many companies hit these ceilings or these bottlenecks where

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_01]: they get to a certain point and then they just, they can't evolve their systems and

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_01]: their strategy, whether it's around the business or operations or sales.

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_01]: What are some of the things that you see that kind of get in the way of company's growth

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and what are some ideas or things that you help them to kind of break through those bottlenecks?

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, well, there's a book that's been out for a long time now, probably about

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_02]: 15 or 20 years, maybe even longer.

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Or what got you here won't get you there.

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And that really is for first-time managers to understand, hey, you got promoted because

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_02]: of your skill and your knowledge, but that what got you promoted is not the skills you're

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_02]: going to need to be a good manager.

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Good leader.

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_02]: The same principles apply at the business level because, okay, almost most businesses

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_02]: are, especially services businesses, are founder-started, founder-led.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And the founder is the master salesperson, the chief cook, the plumber, the architect,

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_02]: the delivery person.

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And that works fine to get to the first couple million.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_02]: After that, there are only so many hours in the day.

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And no matter how talented the founder is, there's just not enough time to be able to

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_02]: do that at scale.

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And your business starts to need different things that it didn't need when it was only

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_02]: a couple million.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_02]: It needs stronger systems, whether it's accounting systems, CRM systems.

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_02]: It needs processes that are designed to scale, not designed to just serve a few clients and

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_02]: a few people.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Investments in HR and the workforce.

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And you also have kind of the founder's dilemma.

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes what makes someone a good entrepreneur and founder, many people can't make that

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_02]: transition to leading and running an enterprise.

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_02]: They're very different skills.

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_02]: That doesn't mean that the founder is somehow broken or incomplete.

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_02]: It just means they have to re-evaluate.

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Do they really want to scale their company, or do they want to continue running it as a

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_02]: lifestyle business?

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_02]: If they want to run it as a lifestyle business, then they can keep being the founder and the

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_02]: chief bottle washer and scale it.

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_02]: They have to look at their own skills and how they're blocking, and look at their management

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_02]: team, leadership team.

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_02]: They have to be prepared to start letting go and investing in talent that they can surround

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_02]: themselves with.

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And then the founder can focus more on the strategy and the vision and bring people in

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_02]: that can run the various departments.

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_02]: So you have to invest in talented people.

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_02]: You have to invest in better systems, better processes.

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_02]: But you also have to have a much better understanding of your market.

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, what if you're a founder and your business really truly serves a small niche?

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, there's a saying that says there's riches in niches, but not every niche can scale

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_02]: to $100 million.

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe a niche can only grow to $8 million or $15 million.

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So you have to understand the potential of your niche.

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's really all those other areas that you have to invest in.

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_01]: There's so many things here I want to ask about.

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the first one is kind of going back to your comment that going from this kind

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_01]: of founder to more of a leadership position, you know, I always find that there's this

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_01]: challenge when it's kind of founder-led sales.

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_01]: They can do things in certain ways and be able to close certain deals and have certain

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_01]: conversations.

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And then they get stuck when they start bringing other people to kind of lead or run the sales

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_01]: process.

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_01]: What are some of the kind of shifts that you see founders need to make?

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Not just in terms of bringing in people, but even just thinking about the sales strategy

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and sales process when you go from kind of founder-led to more of a professional sales

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_01]: team-led?

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I've gone through the same, and I'm still living these problems.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Whenever it's service business to me, if I could go back and talk to myself 15 years

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_02]: ago, I would have told me to keep it simple and more focused.

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_02]: The more services you add because you're trying to be and delight your customer and respond,

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_02]: it for the founder, it's not really an issue or maybe a few key people.

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_02]: But to expect to bring on a salesperson that can understand the vast myriad of things to

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_02]: consult on and deliver and come up with an SOW and scale, you're going to fail every

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_02]: single time.

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_02]: You just can't build a sales force around a truly highly diverse services portfolio,

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_02]: especially at a small size.

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, that's one thing you start getting up to $80, $100 million.

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_02]: You can start to divide your sales teams up by practice area or by industry or by their

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_02]: areas.

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_02]: But when you're trying to get to that scale level, you really should only be focused on

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_02]: just a few things.

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_02]: That's critically important.

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's the same thing for marketing because in services, we do not have the profit margins

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_02]: and the money to invest in marketing like a product company does.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Most of us are investing 1% to 3%, maybe.

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_02]: When product companies can invest 7% to 12%, that's a huge difference.

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you only have a small amount of money to begin with and you're trying to do anything

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and everything, you're really taxing and stretching your marketing team.

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's going to be really hard to scale.

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_02]: MIKE GREEN Yeah.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_02]: MIKE REYNOLDS Think about the systems that you need to

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_02]: support all those different services.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_02]: How do you price it?

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_02]: How do you train people?

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_02]: How do you ramp up?

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_02]: How do you how do you skill and tool for that?

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_02]: What systems do you need?

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And the more different things you're doing, the harder it is to scale.

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_01]: You just add complexity, computational complexity to the whole thing when you have too many things

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_01]: you're trying to sell or too many versions.

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_01]: MIKE GREEN Listen to this podcast, Mike.

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_01]: MIKE REYNOLDS

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So let's talk about hiring salespeople because I think it's another thing they get tripped up on,

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_01]: either in terms of generally what kind of talent or who should you be hiring or what

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of skills should you be hiring into the sales process, and then the actual people

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_01]: themselves, how to evaluate or how to, A, figure out what kind of salesperson is going to work

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_01]: best for you and what you're selling, how you're selling it, the nature of your company,

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_01]: your culture, and then how to actually mechanically go about finding, evaluating people.

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I've seen them.

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I certainly had at my company.

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I probably went through three senior sales executives and paid them a lot of money,

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and six months later had nothing.

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_01]: But I realized some of it was cultural, some of it was where we were and who we hired,

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and sometimes it was like hiring someone too senior and kind of problems like that.

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_01]: MIKE REYNOLDS

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_02]: There is a lot of pieces to this.

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Different advice I would give for a services company.

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's just say a general company because in services,

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_02]: it really is still and always will be about the relationships that we have with our clients.

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_02]: So you're honestly better off investing in really good account managers that can manage

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_02]: your accounts, that can also participate in some of the delivery and strategy so they're

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_02]: partially billable, but they're also trying to grow the account, and these are people that have

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_02]: deeper industry experience.

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe they've grown with you over the years already, and they can move into that role,

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_02]: or you're looking for people that are doing something similar, maybe at a competitor or

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_02]: else.

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And these are the people that you can pay, let's say $1.50 as a base salary as an average,

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_02]: then you're giving them, let's say a 20% to 30% bonus to grow the account.

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, that's just a rough average.

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, it's going to be different for industries and where they live and so on.

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_02]: But on the net new, until you have enough leads coming in and your sales process is humming,

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_02]: where you can't keep up with demand, I wouldn't invest at all in any new salespeople.

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I would have the founder and your key managers and your practice leaders handling it until

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_02]: such point where to get to that next level.

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, you want to bring in maybe a couple of junior reps.

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Your process should be so airtight and documented, nailed down and consistent that you could bring

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_02]: in some junior people and train them, and they could start taking it over.

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't even hire a sales leader or a sales manager until you have a few people, a few

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_02]: junior reps that are already working, maybe have a couple of key account managers.

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Interesting.

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Any sales leader that's going to come in is just going to start adding overhead.

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And they're going to want to build out systems and processes and hire people and start doing

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_02]: a bunch of things.

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And you're not going to be thrown off enough profit.

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And also the ramp up time, we just services companies that are founder-led just typically

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_02]: don't have that kind of runway, which is why you see the turnover constantly.

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, product companies, they can afford to do this every year like clockwork, turn over

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_02]: half their team, take six to nine months to ramp up the reps.

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_02]: They know that they're going to be getting rid of half the reps at the end of the year

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_02]: anyway, but they don't care because even if they just get a couple of house accounts,

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_02]: they'll flip them and keep them because maybe they're a SaaS company.

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_02]: But that doesn't work in services.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_02]: So and then you just the opportunity cost is huge.

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_01]: No, just a lot of these things become existential mistakes if not carefully managed.

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_01]: So let's talk a little bit about the AI.

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So where have you seen, I mean, we're still kind of in it and it's been evolving and

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_01]: things are kind of changing, but where do you see kind of AI really going to practically

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_01]: helping sales teams, salespeople in actually getting the job done?

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I think there's a lot of visions or a lot of ideas about what could happen.

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_01]: What's actually working right now inside sales organizations?

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, just starting off with applications like Gong,

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_02]: tech application for sales managers and leaders, because it's not just listening

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_02]: and transcribing calls, it's really tuning in on training coaching moments.

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Interesting.

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Opportunities to really help the sales people be at their best.

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it's like a football coach, you know, looking at game film and being able to kind

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_02]: of prep and prepare their team for the next week.

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's a really good one.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of good use cases for chat GPT doing 10k analysis, writing personalized emails,

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_02]: helping with proposals and SOWs, summarizing content at any of the meeting recording,

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_02]: whether you're using Fireflies or, you know, Copilot or Teams.

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there's so many of them and then just having a transcription and summary and next

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_02]: and then being able to kind of quickly get back to your prospect.

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Those are all really good productivity enhancers.

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_02]: A little bit slower on the uptake, but there is, you know, AI for segmentation scoring.

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_02]: So whether you're investing in a Salesforce and use Einstein HubSpot's got some of those

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_02]: capabilities, maybe you're doing APX with a six cents, you know, they've got some really

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_02]: good AI enhanced capabilities that are helping prioritize.

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And because at the end of the day, I mean, there's so many studies on this.

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_02]: More than half of salespeople's time is spent on administrative activities, which for any

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_02]: sales organization, that's terrible.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_02]: It's killer.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And that it should be like 10 percent.

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_02]: We want them in front of prospects and customers as much as possible.

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So if they're spending time just doing busy work and we can use AI tools or other types

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_02]: of software that you don't even need AI to do that, that will make them more productive,

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_02]: then those are good investments people should be making.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And where are you seeing some future or things that look exciting but haven't quite hit main,

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, the primetime yet?

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Like what's coming down the pike in terms of AI?

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's really around much better intelligence, insights, predictive modeling, next best action.

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_02]: There's been some stops and starts here, a little bit stronger, maybe on the B2C side.

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_02]: B2B, it's just not quite there yet, but I think we'll start seeing that.

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I really envision, it's not specifically related to sales, but

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I think we're going to see a new wave of tech where with the help of AI,

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_02]: we're going to see a more consolidated, more nuanced application stack.

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_02]: So we don't have to have 17 windows open, you know, with all the stuff.

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And we can just go to one or two places and get our work done because AI just becomes

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_02]: part of our life.

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not and it makes us more productive.

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm kind of waiting for these kind of meta layers to come in where, you know,

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_01]: AI just plugs into all the various tools that you happen to have and then creates kind of

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_01]: the single dashboard or the single interface to all these things.

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And then they just swap things out.

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_02]: We're talking right now, this podcast window open on my Chrome.

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I have just on this window I have in Chrome, I mean, there's got to be at least 15 tabs

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_02]: to other windows that are in the backdrop that I have heard some clients and some other stuff.

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's just there's only so many hours in the day.

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And then just even from a communication standpoint, so you're on Slack, you're on Teams,

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_02]: you have email, you have LinkedIn.

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Yet how many different places do I have to keep checking to communicate and talk to people

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_02]: throughout the day?

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just mind boggling.

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So I can have you stay on top of that.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Even my email alone, I mean, a slow day for me is like 400 emails.

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's a lot.

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_02]: It's too much.

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And we need to find ways.

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_02]: AI has to help us simplify our world so that we can spend time on the things that we really

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_02]: should be spending time with.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're a leader, a CEO inside of a service company at this point and looking to kind

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_01]: of grow and scale and you're thinking about sales, what are some of the things you'd

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_01]: advise them to start to think about or ways in which you'd kind of help them frame the

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_01]: problem and how they should think about it?

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I think that's a challenge for a lot of these folks.

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, they know they need to scale.

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_01]: They know they need to really think their sales.

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's like, where do you start and how do you start?

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think it starts with you go to the market plan.

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_02]: What's your value proposition?

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_02]: What's your market?

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_02]: What's your competition?

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_02]: How are you pricing?

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_02]: How are you going to differentiate?

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_02]: How are you going to execute?

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Believe it or not, a lot of CEOs don't do that.

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_02]: They're jumping in and they're just doing stuff.

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, any services businesses started because the founder was an expert in something

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_02]: and just started consulting and maybe they've had a couple of business contacts, right?

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_02]: So they went out, they were able to get their first couple of clients.

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Life was good.

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe they're making a couple hundred thousand dollars a year.

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_02]: They sort of tweak along, right?

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And then they kind of scrape and get up to that first million dollar mark.

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a big thing.

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And then maybe they get up to two million.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_02]: But for most founders, it's really right around that point.

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_02]: That million to 2 million where they hit their first wall.

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Because everything they've done has been very lifestyle oriented.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_02]: There aren't really a lot of, there might be some processes in place,

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_02]: but not processes that are going to get them to 10.

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So you have to think about this in chunks.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_02]: What you're going to do to get to 10 million, which is the first,

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_02]: that's the hardest jump point getting past 5 million up to 10.

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_02]: As I tell a lot of people, the first 5 million was easy.

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_02]: The next 10, 5 was a bitch.

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, now we need health insurance and we have to have HR.

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah.

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Organizational complexity and all those things.

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Not anymore.

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So now all of a sudden when I was making bank, because I was spending

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_02]: $10,000 or $20,000 a year on all my support,

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_02]: now all of a sudden I'm spending $80,000, $100,000.

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_02]: HR person.

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, geez, there goes some of my profit.

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, so I got to generate more sales.

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, but now I need more people to do the work.

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Because before I was doing it with like one or two other people.

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_02]: But so now, so a lot of founders are surprised that they actually start making less money

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_02]: in that 2 to $5 million range than they were making when they were under two.

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_02]: But that's what it takes to scale.

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And then they might even make less than that until they get the balance right.

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And then getting from 10 to 25 is a big jump.

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Getting from 25 to 50, getting from 50 to 100.

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, these are all big delta points that require

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_02]: adapting your strategy, surrounding yourself with personnel and having the cash to do that.

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And look, and I say this through personal experience,

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_02]: chasing revenue is not the same thing as chasing profit.

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, geez, yeah.

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know, we all get enamored with that top line.

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_02]: How many sales did we get?

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_02]: How much revenue did we get?

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_02]: But especially for services business, your EBITDA number is the most important.

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So everything starts and ends with margin.

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And again, I say this painfully because I've not always done that.

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_02]: The school of hard knocks.

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because without profit, without cash flow,

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_02]: unless you're independently wealthy with much of us or not,

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_02]: there's no, you're not getting enough money in the door, cash.

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_02]: So the money is your money, right?

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's literally in yourself, you're your own bank until you get to scale.

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, and I guess what are some of the other challenges you've seen?

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you personally have experienced or you've seen companies who work with,

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, around the sales process, because I find that there are several.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_01]: But what are some of the key ones that you'd advise people to watch out for?

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, again, over investing in all the various parts, but I need an SDR.

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And I have to buy the software and I need these things.

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_02]: They need demo kits like start with your actual sales process.

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_02]: What works for your company?

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Can you do something?

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Can you train the people that you already have to do what you're doing?

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_02]: If you can't, then you shouldn't be taking the next step.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_02]: So it really starts off with figuring out something that works.

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And for most of us, it's really we all need net new.

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_02]: But a lot of it is in how do I land and expand the accounts I have?

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_02]: While still staying focused.

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_02]: That's the yin and yang of it.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Because your customers, they're happy with the work that you're doing.

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And then they ask you, well, can you do this?

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And can you do that?

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And can you do this?

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I can do this.

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I can do that.

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I can do that.

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, because you're trying to please your customer and it's a quick path to revenue.

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_02]: But it also can take you off focus.

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So you have to think about how do I help expand my customer,

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_02]: but still staying within my service set?

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And that continues to provide value.

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And those are some of the tough trade-off choices.

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_02]: But if you can maintain that discipline,

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_02]: um, you're going to get to scale faster.

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And that seems counterintuitive because you're like, well, wait a minute.

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's say I have a client, they're doing $250,000.

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And they say that they'll give me another 250 if I do this.

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_02]: But that, this that you're doing,

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_02]: you don't have anybody in your team that can do that.

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_02]: You got to go out and hire another skill.

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And guess what happens if that client changes their mind?

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Now you're trying to another client for the new skill.

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And you just took focus away from the first skill or the first thing that you're doing.

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And in the end, I've made that mistake.

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I could probably fill up, you know, a week or so.

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_01]: There's your, there's your new podcast.

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_01]: You're going to launch.

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And to who do you typically work with?

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_01]: How do you typically work with them?

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, just give a little sense of who you're engaging with.

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're working with sales, marketing, IT leaders,

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, anywhere, director and up that they are trying to get to scale,

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_02]: but they need to fix their technology.

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_02]: They need to fix their, their, their brand, their content, their storytelling.

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_02]: It's too product oriented.

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not needs oriented.

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_02]: There's not enough creativity or they have execution challenges

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and they just don't have the right personnel or skill

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_02]: or enough people to be able to do what needs to be done.

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_02]: So we can help them in any of those areas, but it's really about,

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_02]: okay, you want to build a revenue engine?

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_02]: What does your engine need to look like?

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_02]: What do you have at your company that you can contribute?

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And where are we going to contribute?

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Jeff, this has been great.

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_01]: If people want to find out more information about you,

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_01]: about the books, about the work that you do,

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_01]: what's the best place to get that?

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_02]: For our company, the website, it's pettawitzgroup.com.

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_02]: For my books, just hit Amazon and look for either my name,

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Jeff Pettawitz, or look for the books, F the Funnel or AI Revenue Architect.

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And you can always hit me up on LinkedIn or my email,

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_02]: which is jeffpettawitzgroup.com.

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Jeff, thank you so much for taking the time today.

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_01]: An absolute pleasure.

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thank you, Bruce.

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Enjoyed it.

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_03]: visit c-suiteradio.com