Every year, we reflect on the good and the bad. What might give us pause as we get ready for the new year? As we prepare to embrace 2025, I sit down with the former leadership team of Untangled Solutions. Joshua Smith and Charles Love take us through the highs and lows—a little something for everyone.
[00:00:06] Welcome to MSP 1337. I'm your host, Chris Johnson, a show dedicated to cybersecurity challenges solutions, a journey together, not alone.
[00:00:21] Welcome everybody to another episode of MSP 1337. It is that time of year where we get to look back and feasibly look ahead.
[00:00:30] I'm joined this time by the former representatives of the leadership around Untangled Solutions, Joshua Smith and Charles Love. Welcome to the show.
[00:00:42] Thanks, Chris.
[00:00:44] Okay. So, well, he's got lasers, never fear.
[00:00:49] And I love the effects that happen.
[00:00:53] If you can't have fun with this stuff, come on.
[00:00:54] Like, and if you do something like this, you get balloons. Like, yeah.
[00:00:59] Mine's not working. Obviously mine's broken.
[00:01:02] Oh, that's great.
[00:01:04] Josh maybe has programmed his own effects.
[00:01:07] So every year we've done some sort of like reflecting on the current year.
[00:01:15] And then we do a follow-up episode kind of looking at what, what do we predict or forecast or what we'd like to see in the future.
[00:01:22] So we'll start with the look behind.
[00:01:25] I think this has been a very interesting year.
[00:01:29] I mean, we could get into all of the bad things that have happened, but how is that any different than the previous years of bad things happening?
[00:01:34] But I'll start with you, Josh.
[00:01:36] What was one thing in 2024 that just leaps out at you as like, that was amazing and awesome?
[00:01:44] Oh, amazing and awesome.
[00:01:45] Okay.
[00:01:46] Or it could just be one of those.
[00:01:48] Okay.
[00:01:48] No, no, I'll do an amazing and awesome.
[00:01:50] I'll be positive.
[00:01:52] I'll be positive, right?
[00:02:21] Some of the conferences I went to over the last couple of years, again, a lot more people doing virtual.
[00:02:25] But I think this is the year where people were finally maybe comfortable with leaving the virtual and coming back into the IRL for the conferences.
[00:02:33] So I kind of see that as kind of returning back to hopefully pre-pandemic levels so that people can kind of start to interact again.
[00:02:41] Because doing these things virtual, it's nice, especially if it's, you know, like a DEF CON or something where it's all the way out in Vegas and it's part of the hotel.
[00:02:48] Right?
[00:02:49] But I think if you try to sit down and watch eight hours of talks, like you're never going to be left alone.
[00:02:55] Right?
[00:02:55] Because people know you're in the office.
[00:02:57] Right.
[00:02:57] And your attention is going to wane.
[00:02:58] You're going to go do the laundry or something like that.
[00:03:00] Or your butt's going to become numb.
[00:03:02] And it's just like it doesn't have the energy of being there, moving from room to room, going and like having just kind of the hallway cons.
[00:03:08] So that's my positive note on 2024 as I see the return to the, I'm going to use air quotes, the social aspect of cybersecurity for as awkward as we all are.
[00:03:19] I still think that we do like to be around people that we mesh with.
[00:03:25] Sure.
[00:03:25] I think, you know, I hadn't thought about that.
[00:03:27] I think that is definitely, now that you say that, I also have noticed that, wow, we packed that room for that session.
[00:03:36] And like previously it had been like, yeah, there's too many tables and chairs in this room because we had, you know, a fraction.
[00:03:43] And we still had some of that.
[00:03:45] Right?
[00:03:45] I think we still are seeing conferences do things where like they have way too many breakout sessions happening at the same time.
[00:03:52] So you can get that, you know, feels like there's not very many people there.
[00:03:56] And then the flip side is not enough sessions or breakouts or not big enough rooms because there's so many people showing up.
[00:04:02] And I think to the cybersecurity side of this, we're seeing the demand for cybersecurity, not just cybersecurity sessions, but full-on cybersecurity conferences by groups that previously would have said, yeah, we have somebody that handled our cybersecurity.
[00:04:17] But, you know, I'm a business owner and that's not something I'm going to put my energy into.
[00:04:21] I have definitely noticed a change there too.
[00:04:24] Charles, what do you got?
[00:04:25] So I think this is actually the year people really started to take their security seriously.
[00:04:33] Right?
[00:04:33] Two years ago, when you first started talking about CIS, it was like, eh, you know, I'm sure I'm doing all those things.
[00:04:40] Right?
[00:04:40] And then last year or this year, excuse me, we're starting to see more people start to adopt those frameworks to kind of protect their business and their clients.
[00:04:51] And you're seeing a lot more vendors in the space say, hey, here's how we can help you with your CIS, just assuming everybody's doing it.
[00:05:00] And now when I talk to like peers, right, like, you know, I was at a show a couple weeks ago.
[00:05:05] I was like, hey, are you guys doing it?
[00:05:06] Of course we are, you know.
[00:05:08] And now we can talk about our journey on securing our own house.
[00:05:12] And that was not a conversation two years ago.
[00:05:16] Right.
[00:05:16] It's funny you say that.
[00:05:17] So the cybersecurity trust mark, I was working with an MSP who had a question around one of the safeguards tied to compliance and making sure that you had a, you were doing security review on things that you are responsible in your compliance for.
[00:05:34] And they said, well, it doesn't apply to us.
[00:05:36] And I said, well, did you just not read the whole thing?
[00:05:39] Because it talked about compliance with regulations, compliance with standards.
[00:05:45] And then it started talking about things like insurance, literally called out insurance and the safeguard.
[00:05:50] Right.
[00:05:50] And so I asked this follow-up question.
[00:05:52] I said, if you were to show me your insurance questionnaire right now, and I was to take that questionnaire and put it in front of the trust mark or CIS top 18 or fill in the blank.
[00:06:03] How close would the things that are in the questionnaire line up with the things that you told them in the insurance questionnaire that you're doing that you haven't implemented yet over here against these actual safeguards?
[00:06:15] And the response was shocking.
[00:06:45] The insurance carriers are asking better questions.
[00:06:48] The MSPs are now in a position to answer better because they actually are starting to understand what the stakes are as opposed to, yeah, we'll do that tomorrow.
[00:06:57] We'll do that next week.
[00:06:58] I think that's a great, that's a great observation.
[00:07:01] And I got, and I got one more.
[00:07:03] I got a bonus one.
[00:07:04] Oh, this is just one.
[00:07:05] No, go ahead.
[00:07:06] Yeah.
[00:07:06] No, it doesn't matter.
[00:07:07] I'm going to say it anyway.
[00:07:08] That's right.
[00:07:09] My show.
[00:07:10] The, yeah.
[00:07:11] Vendor consolidation, right?
[00:07:13] Right.
[00:07:13] It has definitely been a topic for 2024 where, you know, before I was a okay with one vendor holding all my business.
[00:07:23] Right.
[00:07:24] Like it's always easier.
[00:07:26] They always say the one, you know, one throat to choke kind of thing.
[00:07:28] Uh, one voice there to scream at things like that.
[00:07:32] But we're seeing a lot of people go, you know what?
[00:07:34] I'm not comfortable with this one vendor managing 50% of my entire product line.
[00:07:41] And we're starting to see the shift where it was, I want all my business to be with these guys to, I need to really divvy things up for my own sanity.
[00:07:52] You know, along those lines, you're also seeing a shift back to on-prem.
[00:07:58] Maybe not necessarily all of my services that consume are moving back to on-prem, but there's definitely been a shift to having everything be in the cloud.
[00:08:08] And in fact, if you look at some of the CMMC rules that have come out with the things that you need to achieve as an MSP, if you're using any number of RMM tools with your clients, now what?
[00:08:19] Now what do you do?
[00:08:20] Do you go choose the one that is cloud that is in the, uh, FedRAMP space?
[00:08:26] Or do you host your own RMM tools so that you don't have to, to meet those rules?
[00:08:31] It's a very interesting time because the vendor space, to your point, even with consolidation, are making the requirements that you have to obtain or achieve as an MSP somewhat impossible with the approach and tactics of, yeah, we're cloud-only product, but you can't use it if these are the clients you serve.
[00:08:52] So it'll be interesting to see how that shakes out and I'd hate to jump ahead to 2025, but it'll be interesting to see how these regulatory requirements are going to shift the way in which vendors coming onto the scene that are net new, uh, tackle that.
[00:09:07] And, and the, the legacy vendors who have always been like, yeah, well, we started out in the cloud.
[00:09:11] Why would we ever move to on-prem?
[00:09:14] All right, let's get negative.
[00:09:15] Let's, let's look at the negative, uh, 2024.
[00:09:18] I think those are the more exciting.
[00:09:19] I mean, we don't watch the news or the media for anything positive or lighthearted.
[00:09:23] You don't see any more of like, and they rescued the puppy.
[00:09:26] That does not make nightly news.
[00:09:28] So, uh, Charles, I'll start with you first.
[00:09:30] What was, what was a big, um, negative that will probably stick with us as we go into 2025?
[00:09:40] Just, man, that's a, that's a good one.
[00:09:42] Um, you know, the, the whole AI conversation, the security, the, the, the fear, uncertainty, and doubt that's being, you know,
[00:09:50] spread across it.
[00:09:51] Um, just, I would say one of the negatives are going to be the, I don't know, just all the misinformation about what AI can do in a business.
[00:10:01] If that kind of makes sense.
[00:10:03] Sure.
[00:10:03] Um, it's, you know, it's not here to take over the world.
[00:10:07] It's here to enhance your day-to-day productivity.
[00:10:09] Um, but some people like to think it's going to take over the world.
[00:10:14] You know what I mean?
[00:10:16] And let's suppose it does.
[00:10:18] I mean, at that point, I don't know that I care anymore if it's taking over the world.
[00:10:22] I feel like it's guy that it's over.
[00:10:28] Yeah.
[00:10:28] I mean, there's pluses and minuses to it.
[00:10:32] Right.
[00:10:32] But, but this has been the year of amazing stories about, you know, co-pilots and surf, all those things.
[00:10:41] But it's also been the story of, do you realize what people are putting into these language models?
[00:10:47] Right.
[00:10:47] And I'm not saying one side is better than the other.
[00:10:49] I'm just saying it's been, as the year has progressed, I think the, the tinfoil hat stuff has, has calmed down a bit and people are realizing that there are some safeguards.
[00:11:00] And when people put policies in place, they can, you know, start to protect their, protect their assets a little bit better.
[00:11:07] You know, before we jump to Josh's negative, I think there's some unpacking to do with what you said.
[00:11:14] If we go back in time to when AI really started to, you know, show its head, you know, we can go back to the fill in the blank conversations we had with our phones or other devices that have AI functionality, maybe not to the level that we're talking about today.
[00:11:29] But we didn't think about it on the same level of concern around privacy, et cetera.
[00:11:35] But if you look at like, say the last two to three years, I'd even argue like since 2020 and things like CMMC and how we protect certain data types, we really didn't have an understanding to incorporate into our businesses outside of what we'd seen before.
[00:11:50] Like follow the privacy rules.
[00:11:52] Okay.
[00:11:52] But what does that mean when you're dealing with something that's foreign to most people that are going to consume it?
[00:11:57] But I think we finally are at a place where we're acknowledging and it's not just with AI, right?
[00:12:03] I mean, Charles, when you first started your journey with the Trustmark or even CIS, I would imagine the conversation you have with your staff today are completely different than you had two years ago.
[00:12:12] Absolutely.
[00:12:13] Absolutely.
[00:12:14] And vendors are starting to jump in.
[00:12:18] You know, I know we've talked about the SSO tax, right?
[00:12:21] Like meaning if my product can do SSO, I'm going to charge more.
[00:12:26] Right.
[00:12:27] We're now seeing vendors implement an AI tax, right?
[00:12:31] So, oh, you want AI?
[00:12:34] It's going to be a little bit more fee.
[00:12:35] Same product.
[00:12:36] We just turn on a feature and then we're going to charge them.
[00:12:38] Right.
[00:12:39] So.
[00:12:39] Well, and the cost to go with that, that people that are consuming AI haven't bothered to look at, like the functionality of AI on the scale that you see your chat GPTs, that kind of thing.
[00:12:49] It's not like it's free to put in that request and ask for an answer back.
[00:12:54] For sure.
[00:12:55] For sure.
[00:12:55] Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
[00:12:56] I think they're passing along the costs, right?
[00:12:58] Right.
[00:12:58] Because they're not, they didn't build this.
[00:13:00] They're just essentially bundling a feature from Amazon, from Meta, from, you know, whomever, chat GPT or whomever.
[00:13:09] So they're getting charged for every API call.
[00:13:11] So they're absolutely going to pass that along to the business.
[00:13:14] Yes.
[00:13:15] Some more egregious than others.
[00:13:17] Fair.
[00:13:18] Right.
[00:13:19] Like there's one vendor that comes to mind and their AI tax is $40 per user.
[00:13:27] And it's a all or nothing.
[00:13:29] Right.
[00:13:29] So that, that becomes a problem because if I don't have, you know, 15 people hammering AI, we're just, we're not making the ROI on it.
[00:13:37] Well, and that's like, if you look at chat GPT, I think as a consumer to go buy a chat GPT license is about $20 to $25 a user per month as well.
[00:13:45] So like we're talking like at cost from the GPT, you're, you're pushing those dollars.
[00:13:50] It's interesting because if we go back to the cybersecurity side of this drop AI for a second, if you look at getting your, your SIM threat intelligence coming in from your different vendors, your Splunk's, you know, fill in the blank.
[00:14:03] A lot of those are anywhere from, you know, $10,000 to $100,000 a year to have that threat intelligence feed come in.
[00:14:10] I mean, I would argue that it's almost no different than that.
[00:14:14] I mean, you're, you're, the information has to be aggregated and there's machines that have to physically do work.
[00:14:20] Like at the very least of electricity being consumed that needs to get passed on to somebody.
[00:14:25] Well, and the intelligence doesn't come out of thin air.
[00:14:27] You've got individuals, right?
[00:14:29] You've got cyber threat researchers and analysts pouring over that validation, do deep in it and then putting it into the feed.
[00:14:36] So that also has to be able to pay those people as well.
[00:14:38] But some vendors are claiming things are AI and they're not AI, right?
[00:14:42] So there's, there's a little bit of, there's a little bit of that too.
[00:14:47] I was amazed.
[00:14:48] I was amazed when I would go to the Bronco Stadium and I would walk in and I'd grab the drink and I'd come to the till and it'd be like, you owe this much money for that Coors Light or whatever.
[00:14:57] And I'd try, I'm like, man, computer vision is amazing.
[00:14:59] And then what we find out is that Amazon just had a whole bunch of people in India just watching all these camera feeds and just manually entering it in.
[00:15:06] So essentially it was, it was automation, but it was like mechanical Turk kind of automation, right?
[00:15:11] That's the whole argument.
[00:15:13] I haven't heard that term.
[00:15:14] Yeah.
[00:15:15] Yeah.
[00:15:17] It's funny you say that.
[00:15:18] So one of the things that happened for me over this year was learning about how MSPs operate in other countries.
[00:15:24] Like, you know, in the U S one would argue that a lot of MSPs look at how they can use tools, whether it's AI or otherwise to reduce the need to hire another FTE.
[00:15:36] Right.
[00:15:36] Because the reality is based on your percentage and revenue, the commoditization of some of this makes it really hard to just say, we're going to hire five more people.
[00:15:45] Especially if we can solve that with a tool, you go international in a lot of places.
[00:15:49] It's like, oh no, we'll just hire five more, five more people for that.
[00:15:52] Like, that's no big deal.
[00:15:53] We're going to continue to not be automated or efficient.
[00:15:56] We'll just throw more resources at it.
[00:15:58] And that's how we'll solve the problem.
[00:15:59] And they're still undermining the, the, the cost side that we see here in the States.
[00:16:04] So I think it's an interesting sort of conundrum on the same, but the coin and look at it from the other side to your point about the, in India, looking at it.
[00:16:11] Hey, if that solves the problem and that's what someone willing to do for their day, like, I think there's better uses of someone's time than to stare at a camera just to identify whether or not it was Coors Light.
[00:16:23] But Hey, if that's cheaper than buying the cameras that can detect and identify that it's Coors Light.
[00:16:30] More people are employed, I guess.
[00:16:32] Yeah, for sure.
[00:16:33] Yeah.
[00:16:33] All right.
[00:16:34] All right.
[00:16:35] Well, I see.
[00:16:36] I know, I know you're going to try to move on to 2025, but Charles.
[00:16:39] Why not?
[00:16:39] I haven't got your negative.
[00:16:41] Charles blew up almost.
[00:16:43] Actually, no.
[00:16:43] Charles said all three of my points that I was the one to bring up.
[00:16:46] So I was like, Charles.
[00:16:48] So I was going to go back to some of the Charles things he said, like the bad things that happened and why people are taking security more seriously.
[00:16:54] So I was saying 2024, the scourge of ransomware has hit an all-time high.
[00:16:58] We had our biggest ever payout of $75 million for a ransomware event.
[00:17:03] Right.
[00:17:03] And so that is increasing people's vision or I guess visibility on things, especially at the boardroom level.
[00:17:10] Especially, you know, I think there was someone just hit recently and they kind of said, well, maybe it's Krispy Kreme.
[00:17:16] It's like, well, it's going to hurt, but we're going to go to our cyber insurance and try to recoup a lot of that.
[00:17:21] And I'm like, ooh, like I'm interested to see like the kind of the post-breach review of what happened at Krispy Kreme.
[00:17:29] But I'm also interested to see, ooh, what's the cyber insurance company, what's their response going to be?
[00:17:34] Is it going to be like deny right off the bat?
[00:17:36] Is it going to be what we need to do, an assessment of your operations first to see how much we're going to pay?
[00:17:41] I kind of think and I hope, hopefully, this is also going to be the year where people just kind of throwing their hands up and like, well, we got cyber security insurance.
[00:17:50] We don't have to worry about that because I think there's been enough pushback from the insurance companies because they're not in the business of losing money.
[00:17:57] Right. I think they're going to start seeing pushback on that.
[00:18:00] And then obviously regulations started to come out this year as well.
[00:18:04] But on the positive side, you know, CISA was coming out with a lot of guidance on how to secure things.
[00:18:12] And obviously NIST coming out with, I think, I think version two of the CSF was formally released this year.
[00:18:18] I sometimes lose track of the decades, but I think that was a big thing.
[00:18:23] And then and then I think org struggling to hire and keep security staff was also talking about what Charles was saying about, you know, starting the platformization that vendors are starting to push.
[00:18:33] I both agree and disagree with Charles on people wanting to break up the silos because we've got people that are just like all in on CrowdStrike or all on Apollo.
[00:18:43] And then they're kind of being led by the nose into that full platform.
[00:18:48] Right. With whether it's Palo Alto, whether it's, you know, Sophos now buying whoever they bought.
[00:18:54] Totally black on who they bought.
[00:18:56] What's on MSP?
[00:18:58] Sophos or?
[00:18:59] Secureworks.
[00:19:00] Sophos bought Secureworks.
[00:19:01] That's right.
[00:19:02] Right. So again, more platformization.
[00:19:04] Like if you're going to go with their staff or you're going to go with their stuff, Palo's going to want you to use their EDR, their firewalls.
[00:19:09] CrowdStrike's going to want you to use their EDR, their XDR, their SIM.
[00:19:13] Right. So if it was going to want you to use their firewall, their EDR, their services.
[00:19:16] Right. So same with Microsoft.
[00:19:18] Microsoft is even pushing like Blue Voight to do all these kind of things, too.
[00:19:21] So I think while I do agree that some people maybe have reached that limit, Charles, and they're like, hey, listen, I don't want another CrowdStrike situation where I'm just dead in the water.
[00:19:29] Right. Like I want more at that new mesh architecture where even if one of the pieces, because, you know, we're in charge of redundancy.
[00:19:37] Right. Even if one of my pieces goes down.
[00:19:39] Right. I can still continue on.
[00:19:41] But if something like a vendor where you're all in on the platform goes down, you're you're deaf, blind and dumb.
[00:19:47] Right. As opposed to you're just trying to stitch together best of breed, not best of whatever that vendor can offer you.
[00:19:53] So that's kind of my where I see things are going to I think they started to kind of move that way in the last half of the year because of all the MNA MNAs.
[00:20:00] And I think we're going to continue seeing that. I can talk more about that in 2025.
[00:20:04] Well, I think there's a I think there's a difference between the acquisition and bolting it to our portfolio of products you can buy versus like your Fortinets or your Microsoft where they are.
[00:20:18] It's becoming a part of the stack where it's truly integrated.
[00:20:24] Like, I think that's one of the things that I've noticed that I would argue is a big negative is that we're seeing a lot of I'll say vendor consolidation being sucked up underneath one.
[00:20:35] You know, the line card of what would be like vendor X now has all of these products that you can buy from.
[00:20:40] The SKUs are offered through that one company and allegedly on the back and they all work together in harmony because they now have been rebranded.
[00:20:49] That that I think is is is different.
[00:20:51] Like you look at like the Arctic Wolf acquisition of silence.
[00:20:55] I think that is a very unique silence.
[00:20:58] That was the acquisition from BlackBerry.
[00:21:00] That was no, that was my I was making a joke.
[00:21:03] Silence.
[00:21:04] Oh, yeah.
[00:21:04] They were the bomb in 2018.
[00:21:06] Let's go.
[00:21:06] Right, right.
[00:21:07] But what's interesting about it is that they did it for an intentional purpose to change their product capability, not to just own a product that exists by, you know, another vendor or otherwise.
[00:21:19] So I think that's one of the things to look at.
[00:21:22] It's both a negative and a positive, I think, right now.
[00:21:24] My big negative that I have that I think has the opportunity to be a positive.
[00:21:29] And we'll talk about that when we, you know, go to the look in the future.
[00:21:34] My big negative is we still have a lack of understanding at the consumer side of what it means to practice good cyber hygiene.
[00:21:44] And I understand the victim of, you know, the different scams that are out there.
[00:21:49] I mean, if you're not familiar with the one that I just heard about, hadn't heard of before, which is the brushing scam, you know, where you get the package in the mail.
[00:21:57] You're like, I didn't order this from Amazon.
[00:21:59] And you open it up and it's like, hey, to register your product, scan this QR code.
[00:22:03] And so whatever the value loss might have been to whoever sent you that product, they get you to scan the QR code to register this thing you didn't order.
[00:22:12] And now all of a sudden you've put in credentials for something that they now have.
[00:22:16] The interesting one that I saw that was most significant was the engagement ring that got sent.
[00:22:22] And it had a QR code to register the ring.
[00:22:26] And they called the number and said, hey, this was sent to me by mistake.
[00:22:31] The number that was on there was also part of the brushing scam.
[00:22:34] So they were smart enough to not scan the QR code, but then fell victim to it when they called the cell-free number or whatever the phone number was.
[00:22:41] So I think that's the side.
[00:22:45] So I'll save what, you know, CISA announced or the FBI announced for the future.
[00:22:49] Sure.
[00:22:50] Any other thoughts on the negative or positive for 2024?
[00:22:54] Yes, yes, Jacked.
[00:22:56] Wait, people are still registering products?
[00:22:59] When's the last time you registered a product you bought?
[00:23:02] Right, because the warranty that came with it was one year.
[00:23:06] And you're like, oh, man, I got to get at least two years on my warranty.
[00:23:09] Yeah, those cards go immediately into the recycling bin when I buy something.
[00:23:14] Well, I don't have you saw it.
[00:23:16] I can see the ring one.
[00:23:17] And with people kind of being like, oh, my God, this should have gone to somebody.
[00:23:20] Like, I can see that.
[00:23:21] Right.
[00:23:22] The cubic zirconium.
[00:23:24] But again, they're not targeting us.
[00:23:25] This diamond's flawless.
[00:23:26] They're not targeting us, I think, is also the mentality you have to have sometimes.
[00:23:31] Right?
[00:23:32] Yeah.
[00:23:32] You know, not to go too dark and, you know, but we all probably were aware of what happened
[00:23:38] to the CEO of that insurance company.
[00:23:44] I don't know if you guys saw, though, that there was a lot of noise about the backpack
[00:23:50] because of the particular brand.
[00:23:52] And it's a brand of backpack that you can register for warranty.
[00:23:56] You can register via the serial number.
[00:23:58] And people were all up in arms like, you know, was this person's privacy invaded to find out
[00:24:05] who had purchased said backpack?
[00:24:08] And obviously, that's not how they track serial numbers for a backpack.
[00:24:11] That's not the point of the serial number for a backpack.
[00:24:14] But it's just interesting to see how quick people were to jump on this privacy challenge.
[00:24:19] And yet, on the flip side of that same coin, they're like, oh, you want my social security
[00:24:23] number?
[00:24:24] No problem.
[00:24:25] So, yeah.
[00:24:26] So.
[00:24:28] All right.
[00:24:29] I think that's enough negativity.
[00:24:32] Take a deep breath as we move into 2025.
[00:24:36] You know what?
[00:24:37] All right.
[00:24:37] I think for those of you listening, this has been a depressing episode of MSP 1337.
[00:24:44] I hope you all have a wonderful holiday.
[00:24:47] And we'll catch you on the next episode where we look at the future of 2025.