Alex Ivanov | Trust as Currency: The New Measurement of Success for VCIOs

[00:00:09] Hey everybody, welcome to the latest installment of MSP Business School and Happy New Year to those of you that are catching our first episode of the year. I'm really excited today, you know, as I mentioned in our last episode, this year we're going to go back to some of the things that were core to us at MSP Business School. And that is bringing on folks from the MSP industry that really are experts in their area. So I'm really excited today to welcome Alex Ivanov from Excelis to the show.

[00:00:38] Alex, welcome. Alex Ivanov- Hi, thanks for having me Brian. Alex Ivanov- And we're going to have a great discussion today I feel about, you know, the role of the MSP, or excuse me, the role of the VCIO within the MSP. And really, you know, some of the ways that you can approach TBRs and this, you know, at the time of recording, some of you may have seen Kyle Christensen from Empaths post that's blowing up on LinkedIn right now, where they really said, is the VCIO an account manager? And of course, that brought out a lot of passion, because the real question on the table is,

[00:01:08] who really should be the VCIO? And I do see in my role, you know, over at VCIO Toolbox, that VCIOs come in many shapes and sizes. But what we got to do is work with those VCIOs so they're consistent in delivering certain conversations.

[00:01:22] Alex Ivanov- And I think that's the part that has, you know, maybe slowed down or caused them distaste for some MSPs in the QBR process. As a lot of those account manager led calls have really just become thinly veiled sales calls and their customers lose interest quickly. So I'm excited to hear Alex's, you know, thoughts on this as well as this is, you know, always been a hot topic out there. And certainly excited to have him on the show.

[00:01:47] Alex Ivanov- But Alex, let's, you know, maybe kick things off by telling people a little bit about your backstory and how you ended up here in our little world of MSP. Alex Ivanov- Absolutely. Yeah, and I think, and I have not seen that post by Kyle Christensen yet, but I have seen posts of that ilk many times. So it is certainly out there. And I've had the conversation before. So it'll be great to talk about it.

[00:02:10] Alex Ivanov- But some background about me and the company I work for, Excelis. So the company I work for is a 40 person MSP, Excelis. We're located in Ohio. Alex Ivanov- The exact age of the company is not exactly sure. It's 20-ish years old, a little over 20 years old. We started out from what I understand, which was far before my time as legal consultant, legal software consultants.

[00:02:36] Alex Ivanov- So, you know, old things for people in that space, time matters and jurists and PC law. And we implemented those things and put them in for people for, you know, law offices and helped them along the way. Alex Ivanov- Well, over time, and I'd say probably about 10 years ago, maybe a little bit, maybe more, maybe 12, somewhere in that span, they started kind of, you know, the people at Excelis at the time sort of started looking at things and they saw like, oh, well, these people need help.

[00:03:06] Alex Ivanov- They don't have a server and like they want to put in this thing and they need a server and they don't have anybody to put it in. So maybe we could put it in. And like those types of things evolved. I think they did some phone stuff for a while. Alex Ivanov- And then, you know, now we're just really, we've been at, like I said, a full fledged MSP for 10 years, probably somewhere in that, in that boat. And I've been at Excelis for almost seven years, which is a, was a tumultuous journey a little bit.

[00:03:32] Alex Ivanov- We had, we had high turnover when I started, but, and it'll lead into kind of a lot of what we talk about, the way that we stabilized ourselves and became, you know, what we are today, which is a much stronger, you know, a much stronger MSP than we were at the time, which was kind of like break fix, we'll get your stuff done. Alex Ivanov- And, and, you know, we made stops to the client and there you go. And they were happy, but, but we weren't doing what, what I think all of the, you know, I don't want to call it a new trend. Cause I don't, I don't even think we want to think of it as a trend.

[00:04:02] Alex Ivanov- I think it's a staple of what we need to do as stewards of, of kind of that, that, that IT infrastructure for people, you know, and that's helped them, you know, plan their infrastructure. Alex Ivanov- But, you know, we, so we, we started off, I was the first, at the time we called them technical account managers. We just recently changed our title to VCIOs, although we still have a technical account manager, which we kind of consider junior and we can get into that talk a little bit as we go.

[00:04:32] Alex Ivanov- But, and how that's, and there's still questions around that even for us. So it'll be interesting to definitely have the conversation. Alex Ivanov- So we're, we're a team of four now. So out of our 40, we have four of us that are, that are in that role. Alex Ivanov- You know, I've been in IT since 2012 myself, started off as an engineer, worked through, and then for the past five years or whenever we started this position, 2019-ish, I took on the position of a, an account, a technical account manager.

[00:05:01] Alex Ivanov- And at the time it was, we know we need to do this thing. We've heard about these things called TBRs and we have no idea how to do them. Alex Ivanov- So let's like, but we know that there, we really think there's going to be value to them. How do we do it? Alex Ivanov- And I kind of said, well, I'll go bang my head against the wall and figure that out. Alex Ivanov- And, you know, and, and, and, and now we're here, but you know one other thing, I guess I would mention about us, you know, as a company, I think that is important is, is we're big on, and I, and I think it, it matters with, with what we talk about is this,

[00:05:31] the stewardship and, and, and helping people and helping our clients. And I, and I really feel like that's what we do. Alex Ivanov- And especially in the VCIO or technical account manager position, because we're really giving them, you know, strong advice. But, but another thing that's big and it's that, it's almost like a giving back. I mean, yes, we do this for money. It's not a not-for-profit organization. Alex Ivanov- Not-for-profit entities, no doubt. Alex Ivanov- But, but, you know, it's, we, you know, we're really big with some local foundations.

[00:05:56] So, like we work with a thing called Boys Hope Girls Hope. They're, it's like a foundation that works with kind of underprivileged kids and gives them a chance to do some things that they might not otherwise get to do. So, we hold classes with them once a week where people from our, our office volunteer and we help them with like resume creation and, you know, things of that nature. Alex Ivanov- But one of the things we've started recently is we're actually starting to train them in basic IT functionality.

[00:06:24] And we've, in fact, kind of helped them start their own help desk with their students to manage the issues. So, even when one of their teachers is having an issue, they call it, they can call a help desk number and there's a student or they can put in an email and there's a student there that works to, to help those requests. So, we're, we're certainly starting to work through those types of things with them. And, and again, it's about giving back and, and, and empowering others. And that's what I, a really, a huge part. So, I just had a meeting with a client yesterday or a couple of days ago.

[00:06:52] And it's one of the biggest things that I tell them is, you know, my job is, is, is to give you the information and the knowledge that you need to make a really informed decision on your technology and your business. Because it's not just your technology anymore. Most of the time that technology is your business. So, like our jobs are really to give you that information.

[00:07:14] I can't force you to do anything and I'm not going to, but I am going to tell you what's important and, and, and what, what you need to jump on and what the risks are and, and, and how you plan to be successful going into the future. So, you know. And that's probably a good transition from, you know, your background into what, you know, what is the BCIL role, right? From my seat, I've always looked at it as we're the advocate for the customer.

[00:07:35] You know, while we work for our MSP and certainly, you know, we have our intentions as we bring things like business reviews and, and other, you know, conversations to bear. The reality is we're there also to be the advocate for the customer. If they're having challenges at any point within our, you know, within their relationship within our business, right? They have many touch points, engineers, help desk, ownership, you know, all that we're there to be their advocate and carry their voice forward internally.

[00:08:01] And, you know, have some of those conversations that they're not privy to have, you know, you kind of touched upon it where, you know, we're at a point where our stewardship and our leadership is a core component. They don't generally have CIOs or if we're working in a co-managed situation where the trusted advisor being brought in with an outside perspective because we see more than they get to in their silo, you know, right there in front of them. So, you know, it's our job to really help them there.

[00:08:26] And I, and the thing that I liked and I heard you talk about too, is from the customer's perspective, there is no line between the BCIO and the VCSO sometimes too, right? So we got to be thinking in risk terms, those kinds of terms, because the reality is, even though we'll argue, hey, we got to build security stacks and we got to build those services in because they do cost, you know, more money to deliver. And we do have to refine that process when we're delivering a cybersecurity program. The customer thinks from the moment they sign the contract that we touch everything that's, you know, connected to a cord, a wireless access point or turns on, right?

[00:08:56] So, you know, we at least have to be kind of engaging with them on security best practices at all areas. But, you know, with that, I'll pivot to you, Alex, and tell us a little bit about kind of how you're approaching your clients today in that, you know, that BCIO role. So, you know, and it's evolved over time, obviously, I think to start, you know, as I said, but, but, you know, when we really look at it is, is really that trusted technical advisor.

[00:09:21] I think, you know, one of the things that, and it's like my own personal kind of philosophy that our COO loves when I say it, he doesn't love it. That's actually not true. But I say, you know, obviously we work with, you know, making money and all those kind of things. I said, but really we deal in two currencies. And one of those currencies is trust. Because if they don't trust me, if they see me, and you mentioned it a little bit kind of in your intro about like, hey, is this a sales call? And we've had that.

[00:09:48] So not recently, within the past year, I had a client kind of come to me, you know, and say, hey, like we're, we feel like your TBRs are just gigantic. And, you know, that this is a gigantic sales call. And for me, as the person who was the first VCIO or technical account manager at the time in our company, and I basically created what we do today, I took it very personally.

[00:10:15] Because that was absolutely never a thing that I wanted to hear. And I still don't. And one of the ways I made that very clear up front with our team as I did that is I said, listen, like we started off with, so to give you kind of maybe background. And this, I think, is helpful for a lot of people who are considering going down this road or trying to figure it out. One of the things that was a big deal for me, and this was just something I personally did, was when we started off, it was the compensation for how a VCIO or a technical account manager is paid.

[00:10:45] And one of the things that we had were like commissions based on sold projects and, you know, percentages and all that kind of stuff. Like, hey, if you sell this and you get this much of the server because you sold them a host and all that. And within six months, I said, I don't like this at all. This is not, I don't like this. Like, what do you mean? And I'm like, well, I can make money and that's great, but it makes me feel like I'm not always putting the client first as much as I want to.

[00:11:14] And I try to. There are times when it's like, well, I can sell this server. I can sell this server. And they're both great. This one's a little better and it can make us a lot more money. So, like, I should sell them that one. And it was like, I didn't even want to have to have that thought. It just, to me, that trust that it's almost a fiduciary responsibility, like in a financial way, I don't even want that to be a possible muddying of the waters. So, we killed that.

[00:11:41] I just said, listen, we got to figure out a different way to have the compensation, you know, be what it can be and needs to be for the position. But that doesn't make the water, doesn't, I don't know, it just feels not right. So, we changed and we changed to more performance incentive type things where it was like, are you having TBRs? And so, we got paid for having the TBRs instead of how much did we sell in the TBR. It was, are you having them with your clients?

[00:12:05] Yeah, that's a trend that I'm excited to see that's starting to happen throughout the industry where the metrics are changing on how to measure the, you know, the VCIO as well. You know, obviously, the goal is to get to the point of getting some projects done. But, you know, my philosophy has always been from a, you know, TBR perspective. It's learn what the customer is trying to do. Understand that, you know, what they're trying to do, their key objectives and goals for their business.

[00:12:32] Build your roadmap to satisfy those goals, helping productivity and efficiency, right? And if you can show them the dotted line to business outcomes, they're ultimately going to end up buying that project. Yeah. Something new that's coming in. So, the byproduct is the, you know, the sale becomes the continuation of the journey if you really think of it that way. And if we're building out a roadmap and we're taking that finance point of view, too, and saying, hey, you know, customer only spent $30,000 with us last year.

[00:12:59] There's no way I can ask them for $100,000 this year, you know, with these projects. How am I going to build a, you know, how am I going to build a budget that's going to also be in alignment with what their, you know, their needs are? Yeah, I might want to stretch them past the $20,000, $30,000 they paid last year a little bit because we need to get things done. But I can also move some of those B and C priorities to, you know, further years or a little bit out further. At least give them the option by showing them a priority matrix and saying, hey, this is the stuff you need to get done.

[00:13:26] And these are the things that would be beneficial to you, but certainly a budget doesn't allow. We can, you know, we can look at reframing. A hundred percent. I mean, yeah, that's a key. I mean, one of the things I, and again, this new client that we just brought in that I was talking to, I said, you know, if I'm doing my job correctly, the first one you're new, like it's going to be kind of immediate type stuff and it's going to seem big and overwhelming. But like, ideally as we have these business reviews, I'm 12 to 18 months ahead of time with you and maybe even further at times.

[00:13:53] So like we're having these, they're check-ins along the road and you already know this stuff is coming and it's not a surprise. And it's not like we can fix it to your budget at times. If we have to change things, like, and a lot of times that first one I start, you know, I have to throw a date on the calendar and I go, hey, this is where I'm putting it based on no knowledge of you other than, you know, because you're new, other than we need to talk about this. And if I don't put it somewhere, then we won't talk about it. So feel free to help me move this around. I want to learn what you can tolerate.

[00:14:23] My job, and you know, as we mentioned earlier is my job is to help you really assess things and understand your risks and your goals. So here's how we achieve those things. Here's how we minimize your risk. Here's how we achieve those goals. Here's how we move through these things together, like as a team. And that's that, you know, there's a couple, you know, things that we talk about, which is getting to be on the same side of the table with the customer, with the client. I almost don't even like to use the word client, because we really want them to be a partner.

[00:14:51] I want us, you and myself, you know, partner, client, to be solving the problems in front of us. What you don't want to do is sit across the table from them literally, or maybe more figuratively, and go, hey, like, you know, it's talk about how I don't want them to see me as a salesperson. And we do a lot of, there's just a lot of the way that we, and it's more like almost philosophical in the way that we approach things.

[00:15:17] And again, part of that is incentives for our, you know, the way that we work compensation so that our mindset is, when we go into those meetings, it's to give you the best strategy to move forward. Strategy is a key thing for us. It's, it's, it's, we just rebranded our, you know, we were account management and we literally at first of this year changed our team name internally to client strategy. Because that's really what we're doing and that's what we're about.

[00:15:42] We are selling the client the strategy to be successful via, via, you know, the, the means of technology to achieve, as you mentioned, business goals and to mitigate risks that could, that could, you know, potentially cripple a company. I mean, we've had, I've had, I've had some, you know, you like to think we work in an industry. So we work in an industry that's not, we're not a doctor. I'm not operating on somebody and saving their life.

[00:16:08] So like, it's not, you know, when you take a large perspective, it's not that serious. However, at the same time, I've had phone calls with clients where we've had major disasters occur because of whatever it is. And I've had to look a person, you know, in, in, in the, in the, in the face over a Teams or a Zoom call and go, hey, like, I know this is rough and we're going to try to get you back there. And they go, listen, like, we have to have this. Or I had to tell 40 people tomorrow, they don't have a job anymore. Like, I've been there and seen it and it's, it's tough.

[00:16:38] I was going to say, don't, you know, don't underestimate that. You know, when you, when you think about, you know, when a system goes down, right, a small to midsize business owner, most small businesses are, you know, one or two paydays away from being insolvent. Right. You know, just on how cash flow works. You know, if we are working with medical facilities or other areas, things could be tied to life or death items. Right. At least the, the tools that are diagnostically looking at it. Right.

[00:17:03] So, you know, I know from, you know, when, when I was an MSP, we always had this lens of whatever's happened, you know, if the customer's down, there is a criticality to it somewhere. Within that business. So it's going to trickle down there. And if it goes long enough, it's going to cause some significant pain that could result, like you said, in potentially the loss of jobs, the, the, you know, contraction of folks could even be our exit. Right. So we got to make sure that we're doing things the right way.

[00:17:28] And, you know, I love the fact that you guys are moving to kind of that concept of client strategy, because I think that's really the way you do have to look at it. You know, when I'm, you know, I've been around the industry long enough that when the BCIO role originally, you know, hit the marketplace, it was definitely more technical at that point in time. It was coming in, really trying to guide people that way and try to be a little bit more consultative. MSP started realizing that they could make a little bit of money at this too. It was definitely accelerating the opportunities. And I think for a little while it positioned into, hey, we need to be doing this to stay in front of our customers.

[00:17:58] And certainly we're going to have net expansion revenue. I think it's a melding of both now that people are becoming educated to. The byproduct is that, that output of new revenue. But really, if we're not going in there being more strategic, trying to earn our customers' trust, like you said earlier, really learn what they're trying to do as a business and put solutions forth to them that are going to hit both their budgetary, internal, and security requirements. And then another thing that you and I were talking about beforehand, and I'll hand the baton back to you in a moment,

[00:18:24] and talking about the risk factors involved so they can make more informed, more competent decisions, not just take us on blind faith and obviously hopefully remove some of that sales friction that comes in with this and really become solutions guidance. So with that, I'll pivot to you a little bit. How are you handling those risk stories with your client today? Because that's really becoming a hot button conversation.

[00:18:47] So, I mean, it starts with, you know, it starts with a lot of, so again, I think a huge part of it is building that trust. And I think there's even a, I think there's an element to this where you can't be as effective as you need to be when a client is new to you, for example. Because they don't know you from the guy down the street yet. Like they have no concept of who you are. So there's a lot that goes into, I guess, a first impression.

[00:19:16] And I'd like to be very honest and forthright in that first impression. So, and I guess this goes into your question, you know, a little bit is, again, it's building that trust. So like, again, you know, it's nice that I can use this example. But talking to this client, I said, you know, this new client that we got, you know, we met there, met him for lunch. Like they're not even live yet. They're live in a month. But like it was, let's meet, you know, let me meet, let's start, let's establish a relationship. Let's establish some trust.

[00:19:43] And, you know, I talked about it and I said, listen, we're going to have a business review, you know, within the first month or two of you coming on once we've really gathered all the information. And then we can have a, you know, an educated conversation with you about things. And I said, and it's going to be overwhelming. And it's probably going to look expensive. And like, there's no two ways about that. And I'm not trying to veil that or hide that from you. Because ultimately, that a lot of times is the thing that paints the picture around that risk that you talked about. So, you know, I can point out risks and they may believe me or not believe me.

[00:20:15] But as you establish that trust, your voice becomes more credible to them. And then they start you. And for me, I can feel it. I can sense it when they start to kind of take me at my word. And because I'm not trying to hide any costs. I don't, that was one thing, a mistake I used to make early on was felt bad that this was going to cost this much money, even though I know they needed it. And I would like kind of like skirt around it. And what I realized was I'm not doing myself nor them any favors.

[00:20:44] It looks like I'm trying to hide something, which I was. And I shouldn't be trying to hide it because that's just what it costs to do the business. Like it is what it is. And it's unfortunate. But, you know, you have a business that you're running. My job is to give you great information and put you in the best place to succeed from a technology standpoint. So by hiding something from you and all that, like it does nothing but build mistrust. The opposite of what I'm trying to do to try to spare feelings of sticker shock and things like that.

[00:21:09] And it really, it really, it really, it just, it bars the whole process. So as I've learned over the, you know, five, six years that I've been doing this role, it's, again, I kind of come out with the full thing. And I tell them before we ever see, like, listen, this is going to be overwhelming. You can tell me it's overwhelming in the meeting. That's totally fine. Like, I want you to understand that I'm your partner on this and that we are going to figure out how we get through this together.

[00:21:36] What we can, like you said, what we can push off a little bit, what we need to do, where are those risks? All I can tell you, and I mean, I've used these words as much as they're never, again, they don't know me from anything, is I'm never going to tell you something that I don't truly believe is something that you need. And you can, you know, that can be a sales line if you want it to be, but like, I'm just very genuine and honest right up front. And I, and I, I really try to exude that to the client because that is who I am.

[00:22:02] I'm never going to, and it's part of, you know, again, as I go back to where I started, I don't want to have the inkling in the back of my mind, even if I wouldn't do it to sell them something that they don't need because I can make more money from it. So I just said, well, let's get rid of it. I don't even want it to be a thing. And maybe it's not for me. Maybe it's my team. Maybe there's somebody else who, who, who would feel tougher about it. Maybe they need the money very badly. Like they really need it. So like, I'm going to do this and it might not be the right thing. I did not ever want that to be a conflict of interest. So we killed it.

[00:22:32] And it's the best thing that we did when we did it. And it was only six months to a year into when I started, when we did that. But like that, that allowed me to really just go in there and, and really give them, you know, a strategic vision. And, you know, one of the other things is I don't sell something every TBR. And that's a little bit of my design. And that's the very critical part. Like sometimes we go in there and we just talk about things and yeah, it might set up something for the future.

[00:22:58] But if you're going in there, it's one of those things too, like where we talked about measurements and metrics on a TBR. And we said like, you know, okay, like one of the metrics was a question after that we had to self grade as a, as a, as a, you know, how the meeting went. Did we meet on cadence? Do we meet with the people that we need to meet with? You know, did they, did they, you know, did they take recommendations? Did their stack, did they become more stack aligned as we work inside of our stack?

[00:23:23] And it was like, there came a certain point where I said, I like all those questions, but I, when I have to answer no, and it looks bad that they didn't take a recommendation. Sometimes that's a good thing because there's such a thing as fatigue for me coming in. And then that's what dresses you as a sales call every time. Then your clients going for these quarterly meetings that you have with them, they're going, okay, how much is he going to ask me to spend this time? And like, I don't, I don't want that. And it doesn't need to be that way.

[00:23:49] It takes a little bit of strategic forethought to put that forward, but it's okay to go into a meeting and just be able to talk about kind of the state of the union state of where, where things are. Talk about some stuff that we're going to be heading up over the next six months to a year. And, you know, and maybe, maybe speak to them more and just listen a little bit more about where their business is and what their business goals are, because maybe there are new things that have come up since we last talked. And maybe that adjusts the plan that we're going to do going forward.

[00:24:17] So it's, it's really a huge part of, of, you know, how, how you approach it and giving them the ability to kind of lead a little bit of it, I guess, as it were, again, giving them a chance to talk about themselves and their business. Well, you know, as we all mature as an industry and as, you know, certainly cybersecurity and moreover, you know, the need for cyber liability insurance continues to guide a lot of our decision making with our clients. The truth is there is a lot more to talk about.

[00:24:45] And a lot of it, the customer is the owner of as well. You know, when we look at policies, as an example, our policies being reviewed, our policies being implemented. These are conversations we can have with our customers and we might not be the direct ones responsible for implementing those, those kinds of things. Right. Employees, you know, staff awareness and training. It's one thing to say, okay, here's the tool that we can deliver training. It's another thing for them to say, but are we tracking who's doing it?

[00:25:10] Are we having conversations with those people that aren't, you know, that aren't taking their trainings or are clicking on those phishing emails and educating them to why that's going to be a problem and building kind of a cyber security, an awareness culture in our business. So people also feel empowered if they make a mistake to come to you and not be there.

[00:26:00] It's going to be a winning relationship and generally will help us flourish and get more. Sure. So, you know, Alex, we're getting near the end of our time, but I know we had one other quick topic and I think it kind of goes into how to manage people a little bit too. You mentioned earlier that you're dealing with the legal community. And I think those of us that have dealt with lawyers, we know there's a lot of type A personalities over there.

[00:26:22] And those are also folks that even though they love to charge you per the hour, by the hour, the way they like to charge you, they will use the word fiscally responsible right now, but interpret that as you will. So, you know, how are you handling those types of relationships, you know, because that could be a different dynamic and, you know, those type A personalities definitely need a different way of engagement. So, I think there's a couple of things.

[00:26:46] If you're going, especially litigation, as I know we've met, I think you and I mentioned before, Brian, at some point, litigators a lot of times come into a meeting like they're going to a court case and they're like, let's battle. So, it's kind of a little bit of it's almost, I don't want to, I hate using this term, but it's a little bit of a war term, a historical war is know your enemy a little bit. And I don't want to think of the client as an enemy because that's absolutely, again, it's a partner.

[00:27:11] But it is good to know the person and understand who they are, who's sitting across from you. So, understanding that person, I think, is step one. You need to know who you're talking to. So, the first time you meet, that might be a little tougher, but like use that time to learn who they are, what's important to them, what's important to their business, how do they function, what do they need to do? I think that's a key thing. Like there's no way, so somebody's an extreme type A personality, there's no way that you're going to win them every time.

[00:27:40] But you kind of think of like, what can you do that's good? And I would say, you know, so a big thing is really preparation. That's honestly maybe the biggest thing when dealing with them is when you're going in there, are you prepared? And that means knowing them, but it also means do you know what you, like do you have an agenda? Are you prepared with that agenda? Do you have the things? And it's thinking a little bit ahead. Again, they go into court cases.

[00:28:04] And one of the things that you do as a lawyer, as a lawyer, as a person in the legal field is you have to think of what the defense or what the other side is going to present or what they're going to ask so that you can have an answer for that before they ask it. So it's not only looking at, you know, what you want to present or what you need to talk about, but it's also looking at what kind of questions might they have along the way that you can anticipate beforehand.

[00:28:27] And if you're lucky, have a good answer for that, because the other thing that it does is that again, builds up confidence in you as a, as a, as, as the, as the face of that, you know, that it builds confidence and it builds trust because they start to go, okay, this person knows their stuff. They're putting together good, you know, good, good recommendations in there. And they're, you know, they're working with me. And then you can, you can, in fact, begin to disarm them a little bit.

[00:28:58] It doesn't always work in there, but, but I can tell you of, of there's, we don't have the time for it, but there's a number of stories where I've come in working with a, with a, with a, you know, a legal client and you didn't, I was like, I don't even want to go to this meeting. Like, I don't even want to go to this meeting. It's going to be rough. And now I can tell you that like, I meet with these people monthly and it's, it's, it's actually sometimes even a good time. Like it's a little fun.

[00:29:25] Like we have a little fun in that meeting, but it did not start that way at all. If I could, and we didn't even really record back then. If I could see one of my earliest either in persons or recorded meetings with them and then look at them now, the stark contrast and how that is, is, is, is huge. So I think the best advice I can give inside of that legal community and something that we specialize in is, you know, understanding where, you know, where they're coming from, you know, learning a lot about them, not just generally, but very individually, like who they are.

[00:29:55] And, and being prepared with, with your, with your notes, with your agenda, with whatever it is that you need. And it doesn't mean you have to have a presentation, but know what you're going to talk about, know what you're going to say, be the expert that they expect you to be in those things. And it will help, it will take you a very long way in those conversations. They're not always going to be easy, but it doesn't matter if you're a lawyer or not. Sometimes our conversations are not easy and that's just part of the job and that's okay. I wish it could always be easy, but it's not going to be.

[00:30:20] And I think the longer that you're in the business, you realize that and it doesn't affect you as much, but I've certainly had new account managers who like they get really rattled by it. And I go, I expect it and it's okay. Like you are going to be, but guess what? You're stronger now than you were before that meeting and you're going to be stronger in the future. And you know what to do to help yourself and make this better going forward. So when we talk about the legal community, the best advice I can give is be prepared, be ready. Think of it a little like a court case. Think of how they think of those things, especially litigators.

[00:30:50] And, you know, just, just be prepared and, and, and, and be a little empathetic at times. Cause you need to be, I mean, they have deadlines that they have to hit and it matters a lot. As we mentioned, like they, they sometimes work in a life and death type of situation where they have to deal with somebody in trial. So understand where they're coming from. It's usually not personal and do your best to be prepared and do a good job for them. And usually they see that and it ends up making things go fairly well. Well, Alex, we're at the end of our time here. I mean, great insights.

[00:31:17] I really, you know, appreciate you sharing, you know, your approach to the, the CIO process, how the SELUS is doing it. And, you know, look forward to talking to you more in the future. Listeners, if you want to get in touch with Alex, I'm putting his LinkedIn down here at the bottom of the screen. I will also post it up in the show notes. Of course, as you all know, listeners, you can get this podcast anywhere you download your podcast today or up on YouTube as well. So, you know, please, you know, subscribe there and make sure you don't miss an episode.

[00:31:47] Alex, I want to thank you again for joining us today. Really appreciate your time and insights and we'll see you again soon. Yeah, thank you very much. If anybody wants to reach out, I'm absolutely always willing to help. So don't hesitate. Thanks, Brian, very much. You bet. Take care. Yep.