James Mignacca | Unlocking the Secrets of Data Discovery with Cavelo

[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey guys, it's Brian Doyle and in this week on MSP Business School we've got a sales clinic to bring to you.

[00:00:07] [SPEAKER_00]: My old boss actually my first boss, Rackap, and Bianco is going to join me

[00:00:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and we're going to really cover a bunch of topics around sales like effective hiring, essential training approaches

[00:00:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and how to keep your sales team on track.

[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Can't wait for you to join us.

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Now let's get to this week's MSP Business School.

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to MSP Business School.

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Let by our deans of business development, Brian Doyle, Tim McNeill, and Rob Rogers.

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Each week MSP Business School is committed to delivering you proven strategies, tips, and tactics

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_00]: for MSPs to accelerate their business growth in revenue through better sales, better marketing

[00:00:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and true account management.

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Classes start now, so let's get started.

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's throw it to the deans.

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey everyone, welcome to the latest installment of MSP Business School.

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_00]: As always I'm your host Brian Doyle and today I'd like to welcome a very special guest

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_00]: into our business school community today.

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to introduce the CEO of Cavallo James Minyaka.

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_00]: James did I get that right?

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_01]: You nailed it.

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_01]: The Italian pronunciation is right on.

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what happens when you got a mother's name Claudia Gail Rosary, Parliamental.

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't get much more Italian than that.

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm really excited to have you join us today.

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I've been learning a lot about Cavallo over the last few weeks, especially as we've

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_00]: been kind of at the tail end of the show circuit for the summer time.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Really interested about what you guys are doing over there.

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Before we dive too deep into that why don't we kick things off with maybe you telling folks

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_00]: a little bit about yourself and how you ended up in the MSP community?

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_01]: First off, thanks Brian.

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a pleasure to be talking to you today.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So my story is kind of unique.

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I kind of probably went out a little bit backwards.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_01]: So I started in the startup world and this is almost 20 years ago and we came from

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_01]: a company called Sambine.

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And Sambine did cybersecurity before our cybersecurity was a marketing term.

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_01]: We did it at the telco level and what's interesting is a lot of the employees who work

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_01]: with me today and have worked with me at previous companies, we all came from that era.

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_01]: So my two co-founders, Sambine.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I kind of, I did get addicted to the startup world.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I like to tell people you have to be a little crazy.

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I agree wholeheartedly with that.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_01]: You're like a little bit of pain everyone's well but it's honestly, it's just, it's

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_01]: wildly awesome and so what happened from there is I ended up actually acquiring an MSP.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And I grew that business by fold and turned into an MSSP.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And that, I did that with my experience both at Sambine in that whole cybersecurity era

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and then there was another kind of equal e-centire in between.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I understood the ecosystem.

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Although it was 10 years ago, I realized really fast that the MSP ecosystem is unique.

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_01]: People want to help each other and ultimately what I had seen at the time was companies just don't have the expertise in

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_01]: house to do it all.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think from, from what I see today that's only expediting and especially when cybersecurity becomes

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_01]: more complex and regulatory compliance has come out and mandated everyone across the board needs to do the same

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_01]: type of compliance that a large bank would have to do.

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, folks kind of changed that landscape entirely.

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And so at the MSP, I ended up bringing some engineers over from Sambine and the problem that we were trying to solve was

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_01]: vulnerability management.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we actually built a product called root secure and it was pure play of vulnerability management

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_01]: and what was interesting to me is companies were taking large enterprise solutions and really trying to offer

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_01]: those through the channel or the MSP world.

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And it just doesn't work.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_01]: It's really clunky, it doesn't work.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And so what took place is we built out this product and then we tried to sell to other MSPs.

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, interesting enough that didn't work too well because we were an MSP and opportunistically

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_01]: we ended up actually just selling the MSP business off and focused just on root secure.

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So we spun out root secure and embrace some money and all that good stuff.

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And then what happened was we formed a partnership with a company called Arctic Wolf.

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And they're pretty big in the MDR space and I think 16 months into the partnership.

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_01]: The CEO called me up and said, what's your appetite to get acquired?

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And so a long story short, we sold that business to Arctic Wolf.

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And then you know, a year later we started actually year and a half later we started to develop.

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And the same engineers followed me over to Kavello, which is an honor.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, because truly they're the ones that make it make it happen on the product side and I'm lucky.

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm truly lucky to have talented folks from the marketing and sales side on my team who have done this before.

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And so the difference between what we were doing before and what we're doing today is I realized that the.

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I tax our first management effectively the threat landscape has changed.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So if you think about the old days we walk into an office, you sit there and do your thing on your computer and all the files were in on a file server somewhere.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And then you leave well COVID had accelerated this hybrid work from home.

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_01]: That means your data is everywhere and truly it is cloud computing is actually happening but you just don't go to one cloud service provider.

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_01]: It's minimum five all the way up to 50 and you still need to know where your data is right.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And so then regularly to where compliance come up came out and said you, this is not a nice to have this at need to have you have to do these these best practice criteria is and one of them that intrigued me was data discovering and classification.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I realized if you don't know where your data is, how are you going to protect it right and so.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_01]: We right or the gates we we we we we knew we're going to create a platform for MSPs.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_01]: We started with data discovering classification because that was a hard technical hurdle for us to do it properly.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_01]: We started with that and then we then we dug tail that into who has access to the data.

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And then so we replace on the enterprise side, bruness right in the MSB world which is awesome and then we overlay vulnerability management to tell you what's your risk in your tax surface and so.

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I would always say as you can't just look at vulnerabilities that's a one dimensional view into your threat landscape there's 60,000 known vulnerabilities.

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And then we're going to watch everything and so understanding the dynamics of where your data is and where your true risk is is what we bring to the table.

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_00]: To our our partners and I think that journey you just laid out and thank you for sharing you know a little bit of the background there well first thing kudos that you're keeping your team together.

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I see some of the greatest software companies one of the common characteristics you see after acquisition is the team hops to a new spot and comes up with another great idea so.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_00]: You know that's awesome that your team is following with you it's a testament to building good technology and having a good culture right.

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_00]: But going a step beyond that some of the things that I want to unpack from what you were sharing in that conversation where you know data discovery is huge.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_00]: You know you're hearing all the MSBs they all want to rally around CMMC and one of the core 10's there's understanding where your unclassified data is but a lot of them are not sure what that really means and how to go about doing that.

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_00]: So you know I definitely think we should talk a little bit about that but before we jump into that topic.

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_00]: You know let's go back to what you're saying about kind of the marketplace maturing.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_00]: The fact that there is a shortage of resources out there and how tools like yours can help bridge that gap.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_00]: You know I don't know what number you've heard James but I heard a statistic that we're almost 400,000 cyber security professional short for the jobs that are being listed right now out in the market place and obviously the market itself is getting much more mature.

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_00]: If nothing else cyber insure abilities driving that conversation even if they're not regulatory bound so maybe you can tell me a little bit about kind of your approach to helping that maturation process and then we can dive into a little bit deeper about how data discovery really can support NMSP's journey into helping people get regulatory compliant.

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah perfect Brian I would's interesting what from my perspective what I see.

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It used to be traditionally MSPs would be known for servicing mid-entreprise and lower right and so that's changed right so I see the market opening up and it's because what you just said it's the fact is as we don't have enough they don't that you can't hire one person to do.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Cyber security or compliance right and so leveraging a third party only makes sense the other piece to is if you actually read their regulatory compliance acts.

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_01]: The third party audit is key like you it literally says like you can't check yourself right so having that third party.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_01]: The third MSP is good practice now what I see on the larger scale is.

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not just one MSP anymore.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah no where they're experts in certain areas so for us it's it's interesting because we truly believe in the go to market through the channel like we've been there we've done it.

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I do believe you need a tailor product for the channel like multi-tenancy got it tie into the APIs of the PSAs and the RMM tools and all that stuff be part of that ecosystem.

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And then truly enable them and so what I'm excited about is if you think about what's happening in the MSP world there's this private equity is coming in and they're consolidating right they're making they're making bigger MSPs and we.

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_01]: We saw this with one of our early partners where it's like they had acquired five other MSPs and that's great first because then we just grow with them and so that that's all positive and so when it comes to products like ours the challenge really comes down to.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_01]: You have to make it super simple for them to product dies this or whatever it is you're offering like turn into a service offering and I knew this going into.

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_01]: To develop being that we were an MSP you can't the business plan of an MSP you can't just hire people to do product dies if you will right.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_01]: They just they don't have the cash they don't it just doesn't work and that's why enterprise solutions fail for them and so what we do is we enable MSPs to have MSSP service offerings and they can pick the module whatever might be but you got to make it turn keep.

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Super easy and it's got to tie into their ecosystem and selfishly what I tell people is like I want to make it tied into their work flow system because then we create more value for the MSP it's not a tool anymore and I always like I cringe when people say we're a tool we're not.

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_01]: We're more than that and it's been going back to your initial comment about data discovery it's really interesting because.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Well I have a story and sure I'm I obviously wouldn't ever say names but we have a customer where.

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_01]: They have it's a it's a finance it's a it's actually a hedge fund and what happened was the legal team was working on a document and it had all the contact information for their clients and they.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_01]: She accidentally saved it to her personal dropbox it was open to the world like humans make mistakes.

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_01]: The person in breach has happened because of human error right there's and now with cloud computing there's more areas where that data can hide.

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And so you you now date when it comes to regulatory compliance and DDQs when it comes to cybersecurity insurance there is more demand when it comes to data discovery classification.

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Access management now I will tell you the key to being successful in that realm is you know making sure that's easy to use but less false positive right because if you can't rely on the data then it's it's garbage right and so we we've really tailored the product to make sure that it meets those demands.

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's you know that simplification approach making it easy for the MSP to use and then helping streamline so they don't have to identify it and you're really helping them identify it's critical.

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I agree totally with you in the concept that we say it all the time these yeah toolbox is just a process the tool backs up the process of basic repeatable and scalable right that's all that we're really trying to do here but if you're not doing your piece on the front end.

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Successful come with it and then the tools that we're choosing in the ecosystem are making it very easy to connect to to bring that data in so they can tell the top level story in a way that business people understand because that's who were predominantly sitting across from.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_00]: But I do like that you're pointing out that the markets getting more mature and rising up the ranks into larger organizations.

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I'm seeing that as well and I'm seeing those conversations are forcing you know the MSPs to get better at their game and for them to get better they need partners and I think you guys are doing a great job of helping reinforce that from a tax surface perspective.

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So you know as you're moving forward with a customer maybe talk a little bit about the ease of the onboarding journey right because everybody's biggest hesitancy when they go to a new software platform is.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_00]: What's it going to take for me to get this thing going so maybe you can talk a little bit about what it would be like to you know on day one as a covalo customer for the MSP.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah so the for us it's it's we have a dashboard and that dashboard.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_01]: You know it's it's we try to filter out the noise like at the end of the day what you don't want to provide MSPs is more noise they have enough of that right so you know we what we do is we have a recommendation engine what's your top five recommendations to that customer and what we do is we quantify.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_01]: This is the top five that affects the overall risk and we overlay that into regulatory compliance like best practice all that stuff.

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And so then you can drill down and certainly get more details which we encourage our customers to do but out of glance it's got to be super easy as far as the onboarding.

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_01]: It's agent and agent list so in order to do true data discovery you have to have an agent so it's a light agent and you know we actually just passed 40,000 agents deployed which is a milestone on its own and certainly.

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_01]: You know the from and we also have one agent for everything so we we make it so that you don't have to have multiple agents and if you think about what we do is we actually consolidate the text.

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So traditionally you go to enterprise you get data discovery classification data access and then vulnerability management we consolidate that into one agent for for clients and then the agentless part is we tie in to the.

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Office 365 through API connectors and it's really easy at the end of the day it probably takes about 15 minutes to deploy the only hurdle is the deploying the agents but that's just an RMM.

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, nothing I think you know that you know and that's awesome that it's as simple as kind of integrating with the tools that the MSP's use in a pretty straightforward process and that.

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_00]: That consolidation a stack story is really one that's coming up more and more with the MSPs you know as their tool sets need to increase to answer some of these security bells.

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_00]: It's tough to get these tools together and not have to manage you know not just the tool itself with the relationships within those tools right the support relationships and things like that.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And the other thing that I hear at least from our seat that the MSPs are wary of as too many agents.

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know it's so.

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so when you hear you know that that your system is not you know is putting one agent on but can consolidate what might be two or three other tools for that customer.

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a compelling argument because that's what we hear folks that come to us are because we're playing an agentless process and we're bringing people from the ecosystem in the API to bring in that information as opposed to being another API you know another.

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Agent pulling some of the same data that they're already pulling from other spots right so you know.

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, talk a little bit maybe about how that efficiency is playing into you know your proposition with your customers.

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know if taking a step back think about five years ago we talked about the onion.

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was like more layers the better right is like that's exactly how we sell cyber security.

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you need layers and but think about home depot they had the biggest onion ever.

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_01]: They still got hot and so what we what I think's happening in the industry and what people realized is.

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_01]: When you have more layers is more complexity right and certainly you know there's overlap which you can argue is good but at the end of the day what what I believe is taking place is you because of the complexity there's more room for human air back to the human air piece.

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I know of companies that would have these layers and multiple many many different tools a lot times they weren't configured properly.

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And most importantly what I see is the noise to signal ratio so you know you think about an MSP at the end of the day their job is to correlate when something's happening to turn into an action right when you have a ton of.

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever it is it like alerts or triggers or whatever it might be you're going to miss something it's only natural as a human and so.

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Consolidating that making sure that you tie into the actual workflow so it creates tickets I think that's critical for the success of that consolidation the other pieces.

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Companies don't want to have 20 different vendors right if you think about just from that perspective.

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_01]: When it comes to spear fishing and things like that there's if you haven't done business if you have 20 different vendors that is 20 different vendors that could potentially send you spear fishing type of malicious activity through social engineering versus having five.

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we are we absolutely play into that consolidation stack you know my last point is when you consolidate.

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a cost savings for the MSPs I believe the MSPs need to make at least 150% markup they should not get it a bad for anything less than that they're the ones doing the work they're the ones that are actually creating that trust with their customers we are the vendors we're supplying the product they're the ones that actually are doing the goodness with the product and so at the end of the day they need to make money.

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's a great mindset to have because a lot of the vendors that are coming into our space that haven't participated in our space.

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't understand how much that service level really is important to the success on both sides right of the relationship and making sure that your partner can make money with what you're providing them as tantamount these days we see it all the time and you know.

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_00]: If we're not doing a good job you're going to leave right and but you've got to show a quick return on investment away that they can capitalize quick out of the gate and service the client at a higher level than they were before.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you mentioned quality and I just want to bring that up again.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I think what would you know what took place was taking place over the last five years is you could use open source and get by and these you know it wasn't the enterprise great solutions but that's gone.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, even like manufacturing all different industries that they're being forced to meet certain expectations that demands that quality and and whether or not as performance quality or whatever it is.

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_01]: It's regular to compliance is demanding it so you think about large banks.

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_01]: They're compliance to the SEC is the same as credit unions hedge funds mutual funds dealer brokers so they have to reach the same expectations as those large banks same with you brought up.

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_01]: C. O. I at CMMC like you we have some customers that are sorry some of our MSPs have customers that will actually create the bolts for tanks.

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they're mom and pop shops right and they they're great at what they do but then all of a sudden the compliance comes out and they need to reach certain expectations it's just got to be super easy for them.

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and it does have to be super easy because they're part of the critical infrastructure you know we I used to deal with us of course gear craft and it was the same thing.

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_00]: You'd have a guy that designed one screw for one part of the black hawk and nothing else but if he went out of business they don't have that part anymore.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so but if compliance becomes too much of a burden there's only so much money in the contract right so it's it's a very much a catch 22 and I think you know all of this conversation dot tails to the lack of you know lack of resources in the marketplace.

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_00]: The need to be able to be easy and frictionless to get to compliance the fact that we need to partner more make sure our customers make money are all messages that now today's vendor needs to bring to the market place.

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_00]: In order to have any level of success you know versus hey here's your software go get them right you know and now it's really how are we going to help enable you.

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think the easiest way is each of us has an expertise that usually isn't found on the MSP's bench.

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and that's really what they're coming to us for too you're filtering the noise so they know what they're getting out there is good results that they can then share in speak to.

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think every what like MSPs at the end of the day there's a mecosystem out there not only do MSPs help out MSPs but vendors need to help out each other.

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And we need to to tie in right so.

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a big believer in like what you guys do is is a huge add on and it complements and there's a lot of synergy from what we do and other vendors like us and we all need to work together to make it so that it's one solution.

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And as a holistic you know whole and at the end of the day we're achieving the expectations that their end customers are demanding.

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_00]: No doubt no doubt and we're still giving them the freedom of choice right because there are different schools that thought on how to approach that you know there are now certain companies that are trying to give an integrated solution and then there's the you know the other side that are kind of giving the.

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_00]: fully open space and I think that's an important part too because that open space where people can really be experts in their domain and not try to be everything to everybody's critical for our industry.

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Because you know, you know, I joke about it every day I get stupider because I learned something else in this industry I had no clue about right it's too big for anyone small you know small upstar MS or excuse me software vendor right even through the enterprise great once to handle that.

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_00]: on their own. Yeah absolutely great absolutely. So you know we're getting near the end of our time James you know if people want to find you what's the best way to find you.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_01]: You know I'm a big fan of LinkedIn just look me up go to our website as well.

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Kavello.com and you know anyone who wants to reach out I always answer my my my inbox so happy to have a chat.

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And we'll be posting James is LinkedIn link again with the website link in our show notes both here on all the podcast channels and on YouTube so you'll be very it'd be very easy for you to find James that way James before you wrap up any closing thoughts any final message you want to share with our listeners.

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess as a final message.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I just think if you think about what we're all trying to achieve as vendors and MSPs and I had this conversation about a week ago that whole working together is critical because the bad actors are only getting smarter when it comes to AI and how they're actually being malicious bad actors and they're the tack vector as a whole and so you know I think we we all need to get to know

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and we come together and work together and try to put together a cohesive solution and you know certainly Brian being on this podcast and talking to you is part of that and I appreciate that.

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Well we appreciate you joining us folks again if you want to learn more about Kavello go out to kavello.com reach James on LinkedIn and you know certainly stay vigilant out there James thank you so much for joining me today and you know look forward to talking to you again in the future.

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Awesome thanks, Darren.