Digital Ads & a Cookie-less World, With Michael Pugh - Digital Ad Expert

Hello, I'm Dan Thomas Shefsky and this is the connecting it podcast.

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Welcome to the connecting it podcast. I'm your host, Dan Thomas Chesky today with me. I've got Michael Pew, the director of digital marketing here at Kasiah really excited to talk to Michael. Uh, we're going to dive in and talk about this new privacy, uh, digital privacy and what it means to you, the MSP. So, Michael, I appreciate you being on today. This is a topic that, uh, is definitely starting to get some buzz, uh, not only in this industry, but just to the global industry, uh, all around the world.

Definitely. And thanks for having me, Dan, and it's a pleasure to be here. I'm looking forward to diving in, on this riveting topic with you.

Yeah. I mean, look, I mean, why don't we talk to the listeners a little bit about like who you are real quick? Cause I know you've got a pretty, a pretty good experience in the digital marketing realm and you're starting to, you know, really get your hands around. What's getting ready to change here, but uh, why don't you talk to our listeners a little bit about who you are and, uh, kind of what you, what you do.

Sure. Um, you know, the quick summary I've been in, in digital marketing for roughly 12 years now, about nine to 10 years of that actually was in the B to C world, uh, doing local online advertising, trying to help out people who are trying to connect mechanics with people who have grew up in cars, et cetera. Um, when I joined Casa that really transitioned into, um, B2B where we are obviously working with, um, it, it management needs and connecting our products to, to those needs of those services, whether it's through MES or MSPs. Right. Um, so that was actually a big shift for me, uh, to, to really step into that world and learn the differences. But after now, going on two years with Cassiah, um, you know, all the fundamentals of digital marketing still applied, but it was a much broader sales cycle and a much broader, um, lead gen cycle that we had to work through to really understand, you know, how to do effective B2B marketing. Um, but you know, before that, before I even got into marketing, I had, I had experienced opening up my own online business, uh, which actually failed, but learned everything I needed to know to be able to prepare me for, um, really, uh, the professional world and the business career, um, and, and have a real true understanding of the needs of a local business, how hard it is to get leads, how, how much you depend on sales and, um, really just giving me that perspective and appreciation for a job well done in the space.

Yeah. I mean, I'm amazed in all the things that you do with your team and just, I mean, it's, it's an ever changing world and I think that's why we're here. And, uh, you know, one of the things I wanted start off with is, you know, there's lots of changes being made to ads. Um, and I know that's coming up and I know you're going to kind of give us that quick summary, and then we're going to walk through some of the things that are changing, but what is that summary what's changing with ads and what's going on with this, I will call it cookie list world maybe, or, you know, whatever the new term is going to be, but love to hear your summary on what's what's changing.

Yeah, that's a good question. It's a bit of a loaded question and I'll do my best to keep this, um, really as high level as possible. So, you know, in summary, even before we get to the privacy aspect of things, um, it's kind of important to note that over the last year, there has been a big shift into digital right now, this isn't new. This has been happening for many, many years now. Um, but COVID-19 increased the velocity of the acceleration rate of companies getting into digital. Okay. Um, I don't know the exact number, but, uh, you know, you have brands entering the space for the first time. You have digital mature brands, but they're now spending more into digital, uh, because they've lost their ability to use their events and trade show budgets on trade shows with COVID-19. So it's pushing more money to space. The result of that is that ad costs are increasing, right? So I just want to touch on this before we had privacy. Cause they're linked. Okay. So ad costs are increasing, um, making it more difficult to get cost effectively. Another thing that's compounding the increase of advertising costs or cost per click is that a lot of advertisers are now adopting into automated bid budget and placement algorithms offered up by the big advertising platforms like Google and Facebook and LinkedIn. Why is that important? Because whenever you use an algorithm supplied by an advertiser, their number one goal was to spend the money that you give them. Their number two goal is to accomplish your key performance indicator, whether that's driving the lowest cost per click within that budget, or whether that's driving the most cost per leads within that budget. Now, before the massive adoption of these algorithms, he was in the advertiser's hands to control bid costs and auction costs and placements. But with that control being taken away and now given to the advertisers and, um, allowing them to do it for you, you're effectively spending more because you have less chances to underspend. And it was really easy to, to not spend your full budget before if you weren't paying attention, right? So you have more companies entering the space. You have the brands that are already they're spending more and you know, it's compounded by, um, Alydar algorithms ensuring you actually spend the money you put into digital. Okay. Yeah. Um, so short story cost per click is going up. Cost of running ads is going up and it's accelerating now to offset those costs. You know, whether you're in B2B or you're your B to C it matter. Um, the way you do that is by improving your conversion rates at every stage of your marketing and sales funnel, you gotta become more efficient, more effective with your spend that you are putting out there. Every click I get, I need to convert more of those clicks into leads, and that will keep my cost per lead, sustainable to my business needs right now. Here's where it starts to start. It starts to bridge into privacy. Okay. If I'm going to offset my increased advertising costs by improving conversion rates, I need to be able to, um, really offer up relevant personal ads to consumers or to shoppers or to whoever I'm advertising people are my target audiences, right? It's important for me to scale these ads, um, specific to the interest of my audience or browsing behaviors of my audience or whatever they're interested in now to do that. I need to track my finances. I need cookies. Um, I need to build remarketing lists. I need to be able to identify with what their interests are, to be able to put relevant ads in front of them, hence where privacy is now that I've got a conflict, because the way that advertising has been built up in this personalized advertising world, all of those tracking mechanisms that, you know, a big app platforms put out there to listen and watch what you do and, and build basically build a digital profile on you is now at risk for privacy. First considerations that are out there in the space. Um, you know, when, when consumers are now and even governments are now aware of like how rampant this has run with the amount of data collected on people, right? So I'll pause there to let you unpack that a little bit, but, um, what's your thoughts on that?

Well, no, it's it's, I mean, look, I was an MSP before as well. We did the digital spend. We went through an agency, we went through, we talked about what our targets were. We wanted to go after and we, we did the spend and we, we made it strategic. Uh, it's interesting to hear you say, is, is that now it's all that, you know, algorithm they're going to their first priority is to spend your money and then you're set their second priority is to make sure that you're getting what you're looking for. So really it seems like the tides have turned versus I would have thought the first priority is to help me get leads because that's, that's what I'm paying them for. You know what I mean? Like that's, that's what I thought I was getting.

Yeah. And it's not completely like asinine that they want to spend your money because you're not going to get leads if you don't, if you only spend a couple of dollars out of your budget. So it is, is it to the benefit of the advertiser too. But the point in saying this is that it was very easy to underspend before now you're just saying platform, go spend my money. Um, and it doesn't really have an off switch to say that like, Ooh, I'm spending too much per click or I'm driving conversions at two costs, too high of a cost. It's just going to use it all up. And then when you have all of these additional competitors now in the space using the same tactics and techniques, you're auctioning over other constantly, which is driving up CPCs, which is driving up the cost of advertising.

Yeah, no, I mean, that's really good information. And I think one of the things I'd ask you, you know, kind of started to hit on is I used an agency, um, you know, when it comes to doing this stuff, I mean, should I, as an MSP? I mean, that's our listener base, you know, should I be doing this on my own? Should I just go open my own Facebook ad and get my pixel and start embedding things and trying to learn it? Or should I be looking at an agency?

Yeah, that's a good question. And I think there's a natural tendency to want to save money on management fees by doing it yourself. But, uh, you know, uh, as I mentioned, I've been doing this for 12 years. I'm still learning something new every day. It's hard. I mean, I don't, I don't want to make it sound like this. This job is like the end all be all, but it's tough. There's a lot of things to keep up with. Um, and if I didn't, I do this full time, right. This is 40 plus hours per week. So if I'm an MSP trying to run a business, you know, do I want to be a marketing expert or do I want to run my business? Right. So my, I guess my short answer to that would be, you know, generally speaking, either want to outsource this to an agency yes. Or you got to hire an in-house expert. Um, but I think it's, I think it's easy to fall into a trap with that, to want to do it yourself, get frustrated that things aren't working and say that digital marketing doesn't work. Right. But it's because you haven't really taken the time to understand how to do it is part of the problem.

Yeah. I mean, so let's get into the privacy. I mean, we just talked about what's causing the demand, you know, it's causing that auctioning, you know, where you're paying higher for the, you know, the cost per click. Um, in now we're going to be adding this new layer in there, which is the new privacy and you started to hit on it. You had to have the data, you had to have your list to retarget, to, um, you had to get all that information. Um, so you could go after and do things. What is this privacy law or the privacy regulations, I should say, that are coming into play. What is that going to do? Uh, when it comes to retargeting, when it comes to collecting that data, to be able to have those good lists.

Yeah. So it's a good transition point. So really it's not a single law. It's not a single movement. It is, it is broad sweeping changes that are happening and across multiple formats and mediums. Right. And it's been starting to really accelerate recently too. Um, I'll lead off at the big idea. The big idea is that we are increasingly moving toward an often, not like not a thing where you can just, you know, you get emails all the time, right? You get, you get ads thrown in front of you all the time. But if you want to start to see personalized ads or continue to see personalized ads, you're going to have to opt into that experience as a consumer, uh, meaning you're inviting advertisers to do that. And you're inviting them to track you. So that differently brands are going to have to ask for permission to personalize ads and communications to consumers. Right. Right. That's the big movement that we are in and it's happening on multiple forums. Um, and really it started like we got, we got a lot of mainstream attention to this with the public scandal that happened with Facebook and Cambridge Analytica back in like late 2017, early 2018, which kind of concerned obtaining personal data of millions. Like, I don't know. I think it's something like 87 million users worth of Facebook data was scraped right off their profile. Um, and all this speculation was out there for how it was used in election hacking and, and, and misuse of political advertising to influence elections, right. That brought this mainstream, not just to consumers, but also the government. And now we have it happening on both sides where you have people that are aware that they're becoming increasingly aware of that if I'm using a free product like Facebook, I don't have to pay for it. Or if I'm using a free product like Chrome, it's a browser. I'm not paying for it if I'm not paying for it. And then I am the product, my data is the product, right. This is starting to become known and rightfully so. It's creating a lot of concern over like, man, what's happening with my data? How are brands using it? And that's even, that's even starting to become, like, I don't think people have a huge problem with advertisers, personalizing ads, but you hear about how many data breaches breaches are happening on a daily basis. At this point, it's no longer like a, just an on occasion thing. It's that companies are getting breached and hacked all the time because they're not securing your data and they're not managing your data effectively. Hence who Jones who's hands is getting into and how much data do they actually have on me? Like I'm paranoid and I'm in digital marketing.

I know I'm always paranoid as me. It's just like, you'll be talking about something. And next thing you know, you got an ad and it's like popped up in front of you. He's like, there's my phone tapped. Or they, you know, it's like, it's like, they read your mind or like, you'll go on and you'll look at one item. And next thing you know, you go to Amazon or you go to YouTube and all of a sudden that ad just completely is following you all day and all week. So it's like, it is like, you know, you're being tracked. And I think there's something about it towards it's like, all right, I know what I did. I went here and clicked this. Yeah. It's like, I clicked on this and now I can't get it to stop following me. Uh, but it, what it sounds like is, is I can maybe stop this, if I'm that person that does not want this, I'll have that, let's say unsubscribed button, or I'll be able to turn it off and say, Hey, I don't want you to be able to track information on me.

Yeah. And, and just to unpack that a little bit, that already exists right. In, in the United States, you know, everybody, every company has a privacy policy. And, um, with that, you know, it's like if you actually dig into tend to company's privacy policies, you can find opt out, uh, opt out, you know, things that are in there. And you have to have that to be compliant with laws and regulations. You also have email unsubscribes, right? Like these things exist, but it's buried and it's not easy for people to get to the world that I'm talking about is an opt in world where, um, you really start to see people, uh, like Apple is a good example of this right now. Okay. Apple is about to release a mega change on their, um, on their platform for iOS 14 users that says, Hey, do you want to receive tracking and personalized ads from Facebook? You have to opt in. Otherwise you will automatically be opted out. And that's a huge difference, right? It's kind of following in the footsteps of what GDPR has done to protect European data, um, you know, privacy of, of European citizens. You got to make it more strict, stringent, and hard on organizations to mismanage data and really pro choice to the consumer, um, to allow the prolific privilege really of offering segmented and personal ads to you like that.

So a question for you though, so know this is like the opting in, so I'm going to basically say yes, I give Facebook permission or I give Google permission to track me and use my data. I'm understanding that's where we're going to, how many consumers, I mean, do you feel like, do you feel like the everyday consumer is going to opt into that? I mean, don't you feel like everything we read, you know, less and less of us want to be tracked. So like, we turn that off. Like, do you feel there's going to be a high success rate of people opting in,

It's hard to speculate. I think some people will allow it because, you know, you put the right spin on it and it's like, yeah, all things considered. If I'm not a cat person, I don't want to get cat ads all day because I, advertiser is ineffective. The ability like able to target me, I would prefer personally to see the things that I need connected in my life. But at what costs do I give that with my data? Right? So I think you're going to have people all over the spectrum on people who prefer the personalize ads versus people that are just paranoid about privacy and all the breaches going on. They're gonna be like, Nope, opt out, opt out, opt out. And I think we're going to see the impact of all of that, right? And this is only just really starting to hit us now, but the impact of that, I think for advertisers, um, you're going to see your remarketing lists get smaller. You're going to see more people decline like that. Privacy, like cookie consent tag that you now see firing on every single website. You're going to start to see more people not accepting that because they don't know what they're accepting. Um, you're going to see more, more top like privacy, first movement from Apple right now. They're going after Facebook. Uh, you know, it's not going to be long before they go after like Google and LinkedIn, as well as to say that, like, Hey, you're going to have to opt in to see personalized ads on these platforms as well. All of that means less effective conversion, tracking, less website, behavior tracking, you know, less remarketing and just kind of getting a fuzzier picture of who your target audience is, where they live and where you can advertise to them. Right. So it's going to make digital marketing harder to prospect effectively is what it boils down to.

Well, that's a great point because that's what I wanted to get into a little bit with you is, so if I'm an MSP out there right now, and I'm doing all this stuff and you know, we're doing that retargeting and all those things, is there things I should be talking to? Like, let's say I'm using a digital agency, um, you know, should I be talking to them? Should I be asking them questions right now? Like, should they be approaching me and saying, Hey, this is changing. We want to go through and lay out some new, is there new, like fundamental guidelines or things that we should be doing with these changes? Do you know, to help boost our effectiveness? I mean, our spend and of the things we're putting into these social platforms. I mean, it seems like these are some pretty, you know, sweeping regulations that could make a heavy impact. And if my list goes, let's say from a hundred to 25 overnight, I'm just throwing a number out there. That's a big, big change for me and less prospects. So what should I be saying right now, if I do have someone doing this for me, uh, to make sure that I'm not going to get swept away with these new things that come through.

Yeah. Well, there's two quick points on that. One is, um, now making them as quick as possible, one is you should definitely be talking to whoever is handling your marketing. Right. Um, ask questions, be curious, make sure you feel good on the fact that they have a handle on it, right? It's hard for an agency to be proactive and communicating changes on this because it's like, and I'll speak from my own experience here. Like there's a lot of speculation out there as to what all this is going to mean. And I probably should have even led with this. A lot of the stuff I'm giving out here is very much opinion based on what I'm interpreting. A lot of it is not publicly available yet on how should a marketer respond to this. And so if you don't have a public stance on this yet, and if Google, let's say Google, hasn't defined a public stance on this yet, it's kind of hard to really come forward with a public stance as an agency, right? So you want to make sure they're aware, right? The other thing that the other point on this is that it's not going to fall off a cliff overnight, Apple and Google and Facebook and LinkedIn and Reddit everywhere that your target audience is it's not going to just overnight. All of these changes happen. So it's going to be a gradual thing, but as they start to stack on each other, as Apple has released to Facebook ads happens. And as Google starts to block third party cookies from its Chrome browser, as we get into 2022, you know, as more GDPR like laws hit the United States like CCPA hit California. And as that expands into more States, it's not going to happen overnight, but as it starts to happen, you're slowly going to start to see challenges that exist with the remarketing lists, your look alike audiences that you build in these platforms and how you model your target audiences. Right? So I don't want to create panic and scare that that's going to fall off a cliff overnight, but there are challenges in front of us that, you know, advertisers need to be aware of and have some sort of response plan to. Okay. And one of those things that I'll call out right now, which is one of my personal, um, priorities right now is what do we do about the fact that cookies are going away, right? It's, they're not gone yet. And they're not, again, they're not going to fall off overnight, but if I want to be able to track the fact that somebody filled out a form on my website, which is now a lead, how do I do that? If I'm not using a cookie to trigger based on a thank-you page. And if you're doing that, which a lot of people are, you know, you got to start investigating or having your agency or in house expert investigate doing, what's known as a server side implementation, and this is nothing new. This is how I've been tracking, used to work. Uh, but you actually need to send it then signals to track the fact that an important action has taken place on your website from within your server or from your server, instead of relying on a third-party cookie to do it for you. So it makes it a little harder. You got some implementation work, you've got some web development work to do, and we're going through some of that right now within Kaseya and our brands. Um, but that's one way that you should be preparing certainly is investigating and prioritize a server side implementation of tracking, right? Um, it comes with a lot of pros and cons that I won't get into, but it's overall something that is going to act as a redundant fail, safe to when a cookie doesn't fire, you've got your server side signals firing.

It seems, I mean, look, this is a, this is always one of those. I call them the touchy subjects because I mean, look, most of us on that are listening we're or technical, or that MSP that's trying to technically run the business. And a lot of times, you know, we don't have time to do all these things, but I think it's important. I do think it's really important that people understand that this is coming, you know, we we're seeing it on the news. Um, you know, it's something that you're seeing continuously in the newspaper, on the news radio, all that. Uh, and I think it's important for an MSP to start putting a strategy together. Like you said, because I think that they got to have a good plan when it comes to their digital strategy. Um, you know, what are they doing to protect their business, to make sure that they continue to see new leads. And if I'm someone that's spending money and I was talking to MSPs just yesterday, they spend like$2,500 a month on Google ad words and retargeting, and it pays off for them. And they're, they're like, we get really good leads, but they said the exact same thing you said earlier, the cost for a lead was like a hundred dollars a click, you know, before and now they're paying like$190 a click they're like it went up almost 90 bucks. Um, because more and more people are, you know, think about it when COVID hit all of a sudden MSPs that were out doing the events, knocking on doors, they couldn't do it now. They're putting their money and their time and energy from events into digital. And it has changed the whole landscape. And, uh, now you add this into it. That really didn't come at the start of COVID. We didn't hear, you know, you know, this regulation that is starting to come down and, uh, you're adding this into mix. It's only going to make it even more complicated to navigate those waters.

Right. Right. And, and, you know, there's, there's, there's a lot of stuff out there. And, and we talked on a couple of them briefly with, you know, GDPR, GDPR, like policies coming to the United States. And then probably soon to the world, right? You have companies like Apple taking a privacy first stance and Apple controls. How much of the market share of, of devices, what their iPhones and iPads and, and their Mac books. Right? You have Google promising to kill off third party cookies. Yes. Firefox, which is now, it's not a device, it's a browser, right? Stripping query parameters from your browsing sessions, you have ad blockers becoming more prevalent. You have privacy, first browsers, like brave, starting to see a growth in their user base, overall, all this stuff and all that, it's all happening. Right. And it's all very scary. Um, but yeah, and it's not happening overnight. It's a slow transition. You should have time to respond to it. And outside of a few technical things, like the server side implementation of your tracking to make sure your agency is really starting to develop. I, and I, and this is something that we're doing too, is content marketing, right? With the increasing cost of advertising. What I've noticed personally, with some of our Google search campaign solution based queries, like RMM soft software or single sign on software, the things that express intent that I'm looking for, this type of thing, I've already figured out my problem. I know I need to shop for it. The, the click cost on that. I'm telling you, like, when I want to start it two years ago, it was probably like, I don't know,$15 a click. It's now exceeding 55,$0 a click on some of those. And it's, it's pushed out of the space. Right. And from our own experience, too, you got to think about like, well, how else can I drive effectively generation? If I can't go after those direct search terms, you have to do it through thought leadership get earlier on in the sales funnel. Um, you gotta think about how can I educate and inform my, my target audience and my customer base and my prospect base, and then nurture them through email campaigns and nurture them through relationship management tools, things like that. It, it becomes a longer tail play for you that you need to invest in. But it's really the only way that I see scaling out, uh, effectively generation where you're not getting consumed by these super, super high cost per clicks that are coming through search, uh, today. And the increasing cost of like LinkedIn ads, et cetera, which also means you should be developing SEO strategies and like unpaid social posting strategies that promote your content resources and thought leadership. Right.

That's really good advice. I mean, that's what we're doing with powered services. I mean, we're providing those social, we're providing social posts, we're providing those blogs. We're providing thought leadership to help you go out in and really, you know, educate your customers. And we're seeing, I mean, COVID has really been a, an for a lot of different things. And, uh, the thought leadership, I think, is something we saw in the MSP space where MSPs were doing the thought leadership. They're teaching people how to use zoom. They're teaching people how to go out and use Microsoft teams, things that they weren't doing a year ago. They're now doing on a regular basis. And it's bringing in people that are like, I want to go learn. I don't have the knowledge, but I have to use it daily. They look at you as a thought leader. They're now into your, hopefully you have a good CRM. Um, and you're, you're managing that, that funnel or that cycle where that customer came in. And then you're kind of doing your drip campaigns and things like that. The MSPs are seeing a lot of success with that right now. Um, so I think that that's a really good point, you know, that thought leadership style, you know, doing those educational things, getting people or JV partnerships, partnering with other companies and having them invite their customer base to your thought leadership as well, uh, is a great way to, for you to kind of go at it from maybe that non-paid, uh, strategy, uh, you know, and just using their thought leadership and some more of the content that you're creating.

Yeah, absolutely. And, and you know, what you're hitting on is really the need to transition from relying on third party data sources and third-party cookie-based data that's become available to make remarketing and things like that available to you. You got to bring that in house in the first party data collection and management, right. You're going to see, you know, we, we have to do this too. We have to do a better job getting top of funnel leads, um, bringing those in. So that way we can set them up for email subscriptions, right. Cause if I don't have those email addresses, I can't Mark it that way. And that's, that's tough. Um, and don't get me wrong. Like remarketing is not going to go away completely. You're still going to be able to do it. It's just that it's going to get smaller. It's going to shrink. Right. And so you're going to have to, you're going to have to expand the way that the areas of the funnel that you go to attack.

That's really good information. You know, you've brought up a lot of things and I know we're getting here close on time. And one of the things I want to do is always let our guests kind of summarize any final thoughts when it comes to this new environment that we're moving into. Like you said, it's not flipping a switch overnight. Um, things are going to gradually start to change. Um, what's the thing you would say to every MSP that's listening, you know, as you kind of wrap up this, this topic, what should an MSP in your, in your own advice, what should they be doing right now to prepare? Um, if they have more questions, things like that, of, of the topics you were just talking about.

Yeah, definitely in first I got to apologize. And the working from home environment, I've got dogs barking outside, so was coming through. We're all good. Yeah. In summary, um, you know, I think that, I think that one of the fundamentals I want to touch briefly on, uh, uh, a fundamental problem that we talked about here. Right? Sure. Um, the fundamental problem with digital is that effectiveness comes with personalization, right? Personalization, conflicts with privacy. Okay. But even without all that, it's, it's like, it's tough because digital is super trackable. Like it's the most measurable and trackable form of advertising out there, but it's also super fragmented. Right. And what I mean by that is you have, from every advertising platforms perspective, you have only their perspective. Okay. So the reason why this is important is that Google alone is not going to make or break you like Facebook alone is not going to make or break you. LinkedIn alone is not either as we start to see the lions becoming more blurry with the customer journey and the buyer's journey. And as it becomes more fuzzy as we lose tracking signals, that doesn't mean that they don't exist on like your users don't exist on those platforms anymore. It just means you can't see it as much. And what I think we're starting to come back to is a lot of the old school principles that are tried and true in marketing. Right? You think about like TV ads and broadcasting. You think about billboards, you don't get to measure like how many people click and click through and how many people call as a result of a TV commercial. But you're able to draw a correlation based on scheduling times like campaigns that go out and you see meaningfully increases in traffic to your website or meaningful increases in leads, right. You're going to have to get into relying on correlation and gut more art than science as some of this stuff happens. Right. Um, and the other, remember that like the principles of marketing don't change, just because you can, like, you're going to see a more, uh, more challenging environment with personalized ads and marketing rule of seven still applies. You need to draw like at least seven impressions with somebody before you can make a brand impact with them. You want to be wherever they are, which means you're not going to invest 100% into a single ad, medium or platform. You got to do an omni-channel marketing strategy. And so what I mean by all of this coming together is, you know, you gotta be everywhere. You gotta make sure that you have an expert that knows how to navigate what is coming up in front of you inside your organization, or how they need to have a plan on how to develop, you know, a successful omni-channel marketing strategy. And you need to be comfortable living on correlation and like seeing some of your data points go away and not think that just because I can no longer measure every little detail that's not working anymore. Right. I don't see, I don't see this destroying the digital marketing industry. It's still going to be highly successful. We're going to adapt. There's going to be loopholes in this. We're going to figure it out. Um, but it's going to take time to figure that out. You're going to need some patients and you're going to be somebody working for you. That's going to help you figure it out. Right. Um, so I would just say, be agile, be adaptive, be patient don't give up and, uh, you know, ask questions to whoever your expert is. That's working with you on your marketing. Uh, I think that's really good advice that you just gave all the, all

Our listeners. And I think, you know, like I liked what you said, you gotta be everywhere, your, your customers are, and you gotta, you know, find those different platforms and different ways to get in front of them. Um, I think that that's, that's really important. And like you said, be agile and I think I really appreciate you coming on. Um, I think this is a great topic to start talking about. I know we're probably going to talk about it some more. We'll probably have you back as the, as things continue to progress and you know, maybe lessons learned things that we're learning. And that way we can share that with our listeners, but I really appreciate you taking the time out of your day to, to bring this to our MSPs. So they kind of get a little bit of a taste of what's coming with this new cookie list world or whatever. We're going to call it a that we're going to start to creep up on us here shortly.

Definitely. Well, it's been a pleasure. Uh, it's, it's a tough but fun topic to really dig into. And I hope that we have some more answers on this by the next time we come around. So

Thank you. And, uh, Hey everyone, thanks for listening today. If you get the chance, go onto the iTunes store, um, click on, give us a five star rating, leave us some comments. We appreciate you as our listener, and we look forward to bringing you more channel insights. This is designed for you as MSPs. We're going to be bringing different people on talking about different topics. Our goal is to help you and your MSP continue to learn and see what's going on in the industry, uh, to make everyone successful. So thank you. And until next time have a great week, everybody.