Brook Lee of Liongard

[00:00:01] Hello, ladies and gentlemen. It is January 9th, 2025, and this is an MSP Initiative, MSP Talk.

[00:00:12] Hopefully everybody's past your do-no-work time and actually back to work, because I don't think I got do-no-work time, but that's okay.

[00:00:20] Everybody's different. A little bit cold here. I'm in upstate New York, Saratoga Springs, to be specifically clear today.

[00:00:29] I was told I had to say that by other people in the room. But anyway, definitely getting the year started a little chilly, but on the right foot.

[00:00:39] MSPinitiative.com, this is where we park all of the stuff we do. Podcast listing, our YouTube page, a calendar of events for the year for the whole industry as far as we've known it.

[00:00:49] The upcoming things that we're working on for 2025, as well as a bunch of other things. So check out MSPinitiative.com.

[00:00:58] And I believe for the very first time in the entire history of this podcast, we bring on someone who's been on, I think, as many planes, trains, and automobiles as anyone else that I know.

[00:01:12] She might be fighting some of the top performers there for mileage, you know, traveled. We'll see what her mileage is.

[00:01:20] That might poke her on her estimate for 2024. We bring on Brooke Lee. Now with Lion Guard. But before we talk about any company stuff, and I just recently learned this not long ago,

[00:01:32] Brooke has a really long personal journey through ITMSP land. And I think we should hear about it because I didn't know how far it was until I got it.

[00:01:44] And I was like, wow, you did that? What? Huh? So I don't want to steal your thunder, Brooke.

[00:01:49] Tell us, give us a walk down memory lane. Tell the people of the internet your history here.

[00:01:57] So I started in IT when I got out of college with a degree in computer science.

[00:02:03] It was not what I thought I was going to do when I was in school. I always wanted to be a lawyer because I love to debate, argue, and I'm always right.

[00:02:12] So, I mean, I was like, this is just a natural job for me. It'll be great.

[00:02:17] So got into college and then I thought, you know what? I am not sure I want to do eight years of this.

[00:02:22] I need to pivot and do something different. So basically, I went to my advisor and I was like, hey, I don't want to stay on the pre-law track.

[00:02:28] I need something else. I don't think this is something that I want to commit to for the next eight years.

[00:02:34] At that point, this was probably 1994. So I'm aging myself. So everybody knows, do the math. You can figure it out.

[00:02:42] And she said, you know what? You know, computers, IT, that's something that's really sort of up and coming.

[00:02:47] And she was like, there's not a lot of girls in it, so it might be a good fit for you.

[00:02:50] And I was like, OK, great. So pursued that path, got out of college,

[00:02:55] went to work on internal IT for probably the first half of my career.

[00:03:00] A lot of network server admin type stuff.

[00:03:03] I worked for a pharmaceutical firm, worked for a giant oil company out in Kansas,

[00:03:10] worked for a flight safety company here in Savannah, did all kinds of different stuff.

[00:03:15] Time out. David Tullo, how important is debating and arguing to you, Brooke?

[00:03:19] Good.

[00:03:23] I would tell people I've had plenty of arguments at the lobby bar after events. I love to get into

[00:03:30] spirited debates, especially about the MSP world, because that's where I've been for so long.

[00:03:35] Yeah. So always down for a good spirited debate over a good kind of pint of beer.

[00:03:40] All right. So back to the history. A lot of an oil company, a bunch of stuff.

[00:03:44] So we did that for a little while. I took some time off to have kids, and then I needed to reenter

[00:03:50] the workforce. And as probably any woman that's in this space will tell you, when you get ready to

[00:03:55] come back to work, nobody gives two flips about what you did before. You pretty much have to

[00:03:59] start over from scratch. So I ended up, I had some really not super great jobs. Again,

[00:04:05] that'll be a night for a lobby bar and a pint of beer. But ended up finding a role at an MSP here in

[00:04:11] Savannah and pretty much had to start from scratch. They had some openings and they, I said, hey,

[00:04:17] I can do this. I can do that. They were like, yeah, lady, that's really cool. How about you answer

[00:04:22] the phone and make copies and coffee and all that good stuff? And I was like, it's better than the

[00:04:27] job that I have. And I just need to get my foot in the door. So did that. So started there. I ended up

[00:04:33] at that MSP for about 10 years. Moved up from that role to tier one to tier two. I was a field tech,

[00:04:40] ran cables through the crawl spaces, up and popping ceiling tiles, troubleshooting stuff two o'clock in

[00:04:47] the morning. Back in the day when everything went down, you could not fix it from the house. You had

[00:04:50] to get up out of the bed, get into the vehicle and ride to wherever your client was at and go into

[00:04:55] that lovely network closet. When I left there, I was the VCIO. We were a fairly large MSP, probably one of

[00:05:02] the biggest in the Southeast part of the States. Had a great time there, learned a lot. There was a

[00:05:09] gentleman that I worked with there. He started a consulting firm and then I joined him. It was

[00:05:14] just he and I, and we grew that company to probably, I want to say 12, 13 employees. That was probably

[00:05:19] one of my most favorite jobs because we rebuilt MSPs all over the States. So from super small five-man

[00:05:27] shops, the biggest one that I worked with was probably 150 people. And I probably hired half of those

[00:05:32] people. But you get to meet some amazing people. All the MSPs, yes, it's very similar, but they're

[00:05:38] all different. Everybody's got something that makes them special, makes them a little bit different,

[00:05:42] whether it's their clients, sort of what services they provide, things like that. And I learned a ton

[00:05:47] during that consulting time because again, I got to do everything from fixing ConnectWise, BrightGauge,

[00:05:53] IT glue, hiring, firing, completely rebuilding, help desk service departments, documentation,

[00:05:59] processes, all that kind of stuff. And it was really fun. I loved it. Again, I learned a ton.

[00:06:04] And then I moved into this space probably about two years ago. I went to work for my first SaaS

[00:06:10] company, which was Pia. They're based out of Australia. Everybody kind of knows them. They do

[00:06:14] automated ticket resolution. Then I went from there to ScalePad. And then ScalePad has a suite of

[00:06:20] products that they provide. And then at the beginning of this year, I was lucky enough to join the team at

[00:06:25] LineGuard. And that's where we're at today. Wow. I mean, I got all sorts of questions that come to

[00:06:31] mind, but listen, I had an MSP for many years and I'm actually at the tail end of actually finally

[00:06:39] shutting that business down after 24 years. I rolled into vendor land and I'll tell you, the second I was

[00:06:47] able to work with other IT companies, other managed services companies behind the curtain,

[00:06:53] trying to help them accomplish something that we were trying to make them more efficient,

[00:07:00] fix workflow, that kind of thing. You get to see the cleverness of a lot of people, right?

[00:07:05] Especially like as I was going over borders and across oceans and you're like, well,

[00:07:12] this can't be the same business in the US as the UK, for example. No, it very much is, right? They may

[00:07:20] look at things slightly differently and they may use slightly different names of things,

[00:07:26] but at the end of the day, still the same business. And there were some really, and are

[00:07:32] some really clever, intelligent people out there in this sandbox, I like to call it.

[00:07:39] You did a lot of consulting, it sounds like.

[00:07:43] I got to meet some really amazing people. I got to learn a ton about different types of MSPs.

[00:07:49] At the end of the day, what I did learn and what I tell people all the time, there's only two things

[00:07:53] that make your MSP different. It's the people that work for you and it's the people that you work with.

[00:07:57] It's your clients and your employees. That's it. Everything else can be purchased by anybody else

[00:08:02] in the world. We can all have the same stack. We can all have the same tools. We can all have the

[00:08:05] same firewalls. There's literally nothing else that differentiates you other than those two things.

[00:08:11] Wow. And I got to be honest with you, Brooke. I mean, I read the same surveys that everybody else does.

[00:08:17] You know, 20 plus years later, the same top five concerns of MSP seem to be the same damn thing.

[00:08:24] Seems to be the same thing. So I agree. And then I think there's also different levels of it.

[00:08:32] Some of the things that we have the issues with, I mean, everybody's like, you know, how are we going to be more efficient?

[00:08:37] That's always a fight that we're going to be fighting. We are always going to want to be as efficient as possible

[00:08:41] because I think that's just the nature of IT people. We want to, we are big, work smarter, not harder.

[00:08:46] And it's not because sometimes we think we're the smartest people in the room. It's just we know how much stuff

[00:08:50] we have to get done. How can I get it done faster so that I can move on to the next thing?

[00:08:55] So that efficiency sort of like debate that goes on, I don't think that's ever going away.

[00:09:00] I think that's something that we're always going to be striving for. And I think that's part of the continuous

[00:09:05] improvement that you need to have at your MSP. So you always need to be looking at different ways

[00:09:08] to be efficient, you know, and, and there's going to be sort of like a, you know, where you get that

[00:09:13] tipping point of where you're being efficient. And then when have you gone over the point of where

[00:09:17] you're trying to sort of over process size everything? And then it's gone, it's gone too far.

[00:09:23] So now you've done that and you've hindered the people that work for you to be able to be clever,

[00:09:28] come up with solutions. Cause at the end of the day, that's what I pay them for.

[00:09:31] Um, yeah, you've got to reset passwords and everything else. But at the end of the day,

[00:09:34] I'm asking you to figure out difficult problems and come up with solutions. So how do you sort

[00:09:39] of make that balancing act of being efficient, making sure I have processes, procedures in place,

[00:09:43] but allowing your engineers and your techs to be able to have that sort of a little bit of autonomy

[00:09:49] to come up with, with ways to figure out the problems that we have. So I think the efficiency

[00:09:53] battle goes on forever. Yeah. I mean, but, but, but back to your point, you said at the one place,

[00:09:58] you did a lot of the hiring. I mean, hiring and retention is still in the top five concerns.

[00:10:03] Um, um, profitability is still in the top five concerns, uh, liability, right. And taking on

[00:10:09] too much risk, top five concerns. Like this is stuff I was seeing in 2000, 2001 too, right?

[00:10:15] I get into big arguments with, because I always think that I I'll, I'll argue with somebody at the bar on

[00:10:21] that one. Um, because I don't really think there's an issue of talent. I think you have to go find it.

[00:10:29] You have to know how to find the talent, how to look for the talent. And you, some of this is,

[00:10:33] is an MSP. You've got to be a certain size. How do you cultivate the talent? Because I tell people,

[00:10:37] there's literally nothing we do in this space that I can't teach you. If you don't know how to prep a

[00:10:42] firewall, I can teach you how to prep a firewall. If you don't know how to spin up a 365 instance,

[00:10:46] I can teach you how to do that. What I can't teach you is to have the aptitude to learn and have

[00:10:51] an attitude to what I call give a shit. You have to be willing to give a shit about your clients,

[00:10:55] their problems, take them on as your own and say, I'm going to own this. This is a problem for them.

[00:11:00] It seems small to me, but whatever it is, is causing this person to not be able to work.

[00:11:05] That is my problem to own. And how can I help this person figure it out? Um, so if I can get

[00:11:10] aptitude and attitude, there's literally nothing that I can't teach this person. Uh, so hire for that.

[00:11:17] Um, I also think we have still have an issue with culture. Uh, I think retention is a problem because

[00:11:22] culture is a problem. Um, there's been a lot of MSPs that I have worked for, worked with helped,

[00:11:28] and I loving them, call them meat grinders. They literally just take a tech, grind them up,

[00:11:32] spit them out in the backend and then go get another one. And for everyone else, right,

[00:11:36] we use the word burnout. This is, this is, yeah, like it's a, it's pretty prevalent. I would think

[00:11:42] in the sandbox, to be honest. Um, absolutely. I mean, I see it a lot. I've seen it a lot. It

[00:11:47] happens all the time again. And it's when you break it down for how long it takes at an MSP,

[00:11:54] the ramp up time to become productive as a tech, even if you're a tier three, it takes time. You are

[00:11:59] not going to literally plug somebody in and they're going to start being productive and earning back,

[00:12:03] you know, the, their, their W2 out of the gate. It's going to take time to learn because they

[00:12:07] don't know my clients. You can know everything about 365, everything about a FortiGate firewall,

[00:12:13] but you don't know my clients. You don't know how they're set up. You don't know their infrastructure.

[00:12:17] You don't know their software. All of that is different and you have to learn it.

[00:12:20] All right. So let me ask you a question right there. Okay. What is a reason like, you know,

[00:12:25] anywhere in the United States, like the rubber stamp is 90 day probationary period,

[00:12:28] which I argue is way too short, right? Like, but in this industry, what's an adequate amount of time

[00:12:36] to get from higher to functional? Is it six months? Is it a year? Is it, what, what is it?

[00:12:41] So some of this, I think depends on the level of the tech. If I'm hiring a brand new kid,

[00:12:46] fresh, he's green, doesn't know anything. It's probably going to take me six months to get that

[00:12:50] kid, even to where he's going to feel comfortable working some tickets. If I'm hiring a tier three and

[00:12:54] I'm paying that guy North of a buck 50, I'm going to need him to be pretty productive fairly quickly.

[00:12:59] So that guy, I'm probably like two months. If you talk to a lot of MSPs, they're going to be like day

[00:13:03] two because they're like, Hey, here, sit down. Here's your login. Have a nice day. Answer the phone,

[00:13:08] which is what happened at the first MSP I was at. And you're literally your second day there,

[00:13:12] you're answering the telephone, putting in tickets and trying to figure stuff out,

[00:13:15] which is a recipe for disaster. And that's that meat grinder. That's the high turnover. That's all

[00:13:20] that type of stuff. So I would say for somebody who's more green and doesn't know a lot,

[00:13:24] I'm going to give them a lot more runway because a, I want them to learn. I want them to be

[00:13:28] comfortable. I want them to shadow with a ton of people. I want them to feel like when they sit down

[00:13:34] to work those tickets, they know what they need to know so that they have that confidence because

[00:13:37] not having the confidence, then they get in this thing that I call the ditch and then they can't

[00:13:42] get out. Cause you're like at an MSP. I see it over and over again. You're zooming along. You think

[00:13:47] you're hot. You know what I'm like, whatever. And then you hit a couple of bad tickets,

[00:13:51] couple of bad projects, couple of things that go long. And you get in this thing called a ditch.

[00:13:55] Your confidence takes a dip. You're like, do I really, am I as smart as I thought I was? Do I

[00:14:00] really know what I thought I knew? And you got to get them to come out of that ditch. And that's part

[00:14:04] of the MSPs. You know, that's their responsibility, whether it's the service manager, you know,

[00:14:09] the director of ops, whatever their manager supervisor is to sort of help coach and cultivate

[00:14:14] them out of that and get that confidence built back up. But I've seen a ton of engineers get in

[00:14:18] that ditch is what I call it. And they don't make it out. And then they end up quitting.

[00:14:22] They go to another MSP. And again, it's a fresh start for them. So then, you know, Hey, here I am.

[00:14:28] I'm hot. You know what? I've done a year at Georgia's MSP. I'm going from a tier one, right to a tier two

[00:14:33] that happens all the time. So if you don't promote or at least give people a path after about a year,

[00:14:39] they're going to, I would do it. I'm at tier one. I'm going to leave. I'm going to go somewhere else.

[00:14:43] I'm going to start as a tier two, because I'm going to show up at somebody's door with

[00:14:46] one year of MSP experience. I'm going to have my resume built out like nobody's business.

[00:14:50] And now I'm going to start as a tier two and make more money. So you got to make sure you have that

[00:14:54] path, but getting them out of that ditch, that's what you've got to do to keep people again at your

[00:14:58] MSP, because when we have to train them and again, three months, six months, whatever it is that

[00:15:03] we're not making the money back or ROI on this person, all you're doing is you're just, you're

[00:15:08] going to do it all over again. Invest the time in that person so that you don't lose them.

[00:15:13] Because then again, you're starting from scratch and I got to go find a person and I got to hire

[00:15:17] them and I got to start all over. And we got to train them on all this stuff. And again, it's just

[00:15:21] rinse and repeat versus getting some really good people hired, cultivating those people. Again,

[00:15:27] making sure when they take that little dip in the confidence that we get back out of that,

[00:15:30] give them some things to do. I'm big on getting them to coach other people that are, that are under

[00:15:35] them. Again, because then it's like, you know, if I've got a new guy coming in, yeah, this is how we do

[00:15:39] things here. Let me show you the ropes, whatever. Again, that's an immediate confidence

[00:15:43] boost. And that's how I can help kind of get them elevated up so that they get their confidence

[00:15:47] back so that they can go back doing those, you know, the stuff that they want to do, which are

[00:15:50] the projects and the tickets. There's a lot of nuance in what you're saying. I got to be honest

[00:15:53] with you. I've loved, I was this person, right? Like the sole tech turned business owner realizing that

[00:16:00] they can't do it by themselves, eventually hiring people behind them. I just don't think they have a

[00:16:05] lot of, they're too busy in the day to day to like pay attention to a lot of the things that

[00:16:10] you're talking about. And like, there's a lot of value to what you're saying. I just think that

[00:16:14] they're, you know, like this. And that's why I kept getting a job as a consultant.

[00:16:20] No, that's fair. Because again, it's, you know, it's working through those things and making sure

[00:16:25] that people, it's not a hit to the owner because clearly they started this business from nothing,

[00:16:30] college, whatever it was, provided some services, grew it to where it's at today. But what are you really

[00:16:35] good at? And then let's hire people that for the things that you're not good at. And a lot of times

[00:16:40] it is the people piece. You know, I'm really great at tech. I'm really great at business. I've built

[00:16:45] this company. I'm a great salesperson, but I'm not really good at people. So let's go hire somebody

[00:16:49] that is good at people that can cultivate your staff. Again, get them where they need to go. And again,

[00:16:54] build that culture of the company that you want, because again, and it's not a hit on that person.

[00:16:59] It's just, you know, what are you great at? What are you not great at? And then let's go find

[00:17:02] somebody that's great at what you're, you know, what is sort of, you know, we need to fill in that

[00:17:06] gap. I agree. I agree. Let me, let me, let me try and let me go for another topic that kind of

[00:17:11] intertwines with your path now on the other side of the aisle, the vendor side of the aisle. Okay.

[00:17:16] One side, you're a consultant, Brooke. On the other side, you're representing software company, Brooke.

[00:17:21] But in between is the MSP who I've seen it. I still see it. You know, it's like tool,

[00:17:27] it's like tool, shiny objects, swiper syndrome, but then they never actually implement it. And then

[00:17:34] six months go by, they're paying a bill for something that ultimately they're not using.

[00:17:38] And then, you know, or there's a, there's a different picture, right? I have so many tools.

[00:17:44] Yep. It's just overload, right? Like I almost don't have time to manage the house kind of thing.

[00:17:50] And as a consultant, that's one of the first things I do is a tool check. Cause that's an easy

[00:17:53] win for me for the owner. So if I come work at your MSP, I'm going to do a tool check.

[00:17:56] I'm going to evaluate everything and anything that only one person can use.

[00:18:01] And it's costing me a lot of money. It's out the door. I'm not, we're going to go. And then I'm

[00:18:05] going to go, George, look at all the money that I just started saving you like day three. And then

[00:18:08] you're going to be like, Holy smokes. She's staying for a little while. We want to keep her on board.

[00:18:12] Again, it's just, and that's in general, what almost all consultants do. We immediately want that win.

[00:18:17] Let's reevaluate all the tools. So because I have the MSP experience and because I'm now on this side,

[00:18:22] one of the things that I do when we go to events or I'm doing webinars or I'm talking to MSPs,

[00:18:28] any of that type of stuff is I ask a lot of questions and I do a whole bunch of listening

[00:18:32] so that I can learn about their MSP. Cause what I won't do, and you can ask anybody,

[00:18:36] I absolutely refuse to sell you a product that I know you're not going to be able to use.

[00:18:40] If you're a five man shop and you are the owner, the VCIO, the tier three, the project engineer,

[00:18:47] whatever. And you're telling me, Hey Brooke, I want to go get X. I'm going to be like, dude,

[00:18:50] you know what? That's really cool, but that's not going to be a good fit for you. You need to look

[00:18:54] at why you are not going to be able to get this up and running. It's too much of a heavy lift. You're

[00:18:59] not going to be able to implement it to your point. Next thing you know, you're going to be mad. You've

[00:19:03] been paying me for six months. You're going to be talking about, Oh Brooke, she's blah, blah, blah.

[00:19:07] She sold me this yada, yada, yada, and it's not working. And then you're going to go hop on Reddit

[00:19:10] and just really light me up. So I have no desire to do that. So that is why I am really,

[00:19:16] really particular. And I've been very fortunate to work with companies that are okay with me doing

[00:19:20] that. Because again, if it's, if I know you're not going to be able to use this product and you're

[00:19:24] not going to be successful with it, that is the absolute worst thing that I can do. Why in the

[00:19:29] world would I sell you something? If I know you can't use it yet for whatever reason. Um, one time

[00:19:35] there was a, it was a good MSP. They were really, really big. They probably had 50 total staff there,

[00:19:41] really good revenue. I mean, they had the money to buy the product. They were in the middle of

[00:19:45] switching their PSA and their RMM. And they were like, Hey Brooke, let's go. And I was like,

[00:19:50] that's cool. What we're going to do is I'm going to get all your information. We're going to let

[00:19:55] the dust settle on this PSA and on this RMM. And I'm going to have somebody call you in about

[00:20:01] 30 to 60 days. We're going to check in. We're going to see how you're doing and see how we look.

[00:20:06] And then at that point, we're going to decide if we're ready to take on a new tool or not. And

[00:20:10] they were like, well, Brooke, I want to buy it today. And I'm like, that's really cool. I'm glad that you

[00:20:13] want to buy it today. This is not going to work because that particular product was going to require

[00:20:17] heavy lift. So now you're going to do three things at one time. Your engineers are going to hate you.

[00:20:22] This is going to go badly. They're going to dig in their heels because they already have to change.

[00:20:25] If we're changing PSAs, I got to change how I put time on tickets. Everything is a little

[00:20:29] different, a different checkbox here. I got to put my time entry here. You know, I've got to do,

[00:20:34] you know, make sure the agreements added over here. All that stuff is going to look completely

[00:20:38] different. RMM again, heavy lift. So that's why I told them, have a nice day. Here's my card.

[00:20:43] I'm going to call you boys in about 30 to 60 days, and then we're going to see what we can work out.

[00:20:47] So I think that's where I really find my niche in this space of talking to the MSPs, listening,

[00:20:55] asking the right questions, and then figuring out what's going to fit for them. And then are they

[00:20:59] going to be successful? Because at the end of the day, that's, that's the key is that you can't use

[00:21:03] the tool successfully for whatever reason. Maybe it's not me. And I always say, I know a guy,

[00:21:09] which is a generic sense, but if it's not me, I know a guy, let me go talk. You need

[00:21:13] some VoIP stuff. Okay. Let me go introduce you to George. Let me go introduce you to Bob here and

[00:21:18] here. Talk to these three or four people. They have the tool that you need and then talk to them. And

[00:21:22] then you can make a decision. Or if you need something else, let me go introduce you to

[00:21:26] Cynthia over here. Her company has something that might be a good fit for you. If it's not me,

[00:21:31] or if I know it again, that you're not going to be successful with what you're asking me to do.

[00:21:34] Again, listening, asking the right questions. And part of that comes from all of the consulting

[00:21:38] and the different sizes, shapes, and the MSPs to figure out kind of how I can help sort of bridge

[00:21:44] that gap. Even if it's not me, let me help them go find something else so that you're not just

[00:21:48] chasing to your point, the shiny objects at every single show that we go to.

[00:21:52] Yeah. There's, and by the way, if everybody in the space took your approach, I think a lot of boats

[00:21:59] would rise together kind of thing. The whole all tides rise, you know, kind of all tides rising boat,

[00:22:04] you know, cliche, but how do you help, you know, and I'm not coming back to your consulting,

[00:22:11] you know, kind of angle here, but like the industry tends to every three, four or five years,

[00:22:17] pick up a new marketing term and just put it on a billboard. Right. First it was cloud.

[00:22:23] And then it was cyber pick a word behind it. Let's just have security just be, you know,

[00:22:28] but could you, I've seen so many companies, Oh, we're cyber this. And it's like,

[00:22:32] what? Cyber McDonald's. What, what? I thought you flipped him. And now, you know, the whole AI thing

[00:22:40] seems to be front and center. Right. So everybody seems to follow the coattails of the big guys who

[00:22:46] are burning a lot of marketing dollars, Microsoft's up there and everybody else. So I feel like from a

[00:22:52] maturity level, um, most MSPs are not going to succeed at the bleeding edge where things are still

[00:23:02] not formed and very wild, wild west, but they all seem to follow it because they're seeing it

[00:23:08] everywhere. How do you advise people to adopt new things to offer to their customers?

[00:23:14] Um, so some of that's going to depend on their client base. If they have some particular verticals,

[00:23:19] some of those things, um, are going to be, we're going to have to get not on the bleeding edge,

[00:23:24] but we're going to have to head that direction. Um, the thing that I would say probably right now

[00:23:27] is the most prevalent is compliance. Um, cause pretty much every single company has some sort

[00:23:33] of compliancy that they're going to have to adhere to, whether it's HIPAA, whether it's banking.

[00:23:38] Um, I mean, everybody's got to have something, even if you're saying, Oh, well, you know,

[00:23:42] my, you know, I go talk to my client and they're like, yeah, yeah, we don't,

[00:23:44] we don't have any of that stuff. You still need to be under something, even if it's CIS,

[00:23:49] you're going to have to maybe get some cyber insurance or your customers are going to ask you

[00:23:53] for something. Cause they're going to have to fill out those cyber insurance forms that we all love

[00:23:57] and hate, uh, to fill out cause they're 27 pages long. Um, so I would say those are one of the

[00:24:03] things that I'm seeing that pretty much every MSP is going to have to get on board with. And again,

[00:24:07] get on board is, do you just need to get CIS and have some sort of a tool or something to help

[00:24:12] you in a very small fashion? Or do you need to be sort of all the way on the other end for some

[00:24:16] of these larger, uh, players that are out there in our space that really have some stuff where you're

[00:24:20] going to do, you know, a virtual CISO or compliance as a service or something like that. So I think

[00:24:25] that there's a wide berth on that one, but that's the one that I've seen recently that I can get on

[00:24:31] board with. I mean, the whole, like everything that's like the AI stuff and everything else,

[00:24:35] and all these acronyms that people want to throw in the compliance one is the one where I think

[00:24:38] everybody really is going to, I mean, like it, love it, or hate it. And, uh,

[00:24:42] one of the gentlemen that I worked with, um, at scale pad, Dan Fox, he was, he gave a speech and

[00:24:48] he was like talking about, you can't wait on the government regulation to happen. A, they're 10

[00:24:52] years behind everything. And by the time you wait on it, and then they ask you to do it, so many

[00:24:56] things have happened in between. So now is the time to try to, you know, sort of figure that out.

[00:25:00] So that's the one that I feel that we really need to try to push people towards again, even if it's

[00:25:06] the very small one, or like I said, depending on your clients, if you've got to go like full blown and you

[00:25:10] have the staffing for it, but that's the one that I feel like is, is in everybody's wheelhouse in

[00:25:15] some form or fashion. And you're going to have to do it. Like I said, otherwise you're just asking

[00:25:18] for trouble at this point, I think. Uh, yeah, you're there. A lot of, a lot of arrows are pointing

[00:25:23] that way for sure. Uh, I think part of the concern is like, I was just talking to a couple of people

[00:25:30] down, you know, in Australia and New Zealand, specifically Australia, like they've basically picked

[00:25:35] a compliance standard as a country. Right. And said, Hey, we're doing ISO 127,000, whatever.

[00:25:42] And you know, like that's our standard. If you have it, you're there. If you're not start going

[00:25:47] there, but like here, it just seems like there, you could trip over them. I mean, like there's not

[00:25:52] one. I know. And so that's why I think you've really got to partner with somebody that's going

[00:25:55] to be able to help guide you because there's so much out there because we haven't done that here.

[00:26:00] Um, so that's why I think a lot of people recommend the CIS, uh, framework, because again,

[00:26:04] it's, it's a self-audited one. It's, it's sort of like a baby step. So if I need to do something,

[00:26:08] let's at least get that one done. Um, it's, it's easier to get done. Again, you can do it yourself.

[00:26:13] You don't have to have somebody come back and audit you after. Um, but I agree. I mean, it's,

[00:26:17] I think, but that's part of, we don't want to tell people what to do here. We don't want to like

[00:26:22] put down the band hammer and say, everybody's got to have this, you know, particular type of

[00:26:26] compliance framework. And then therefore that now means that we have, I don't know, 50, 60,

[00:26:31] a hundred frameworks, who the hell knows how many we've got out there now and how do you pick? Um,

[00:26:36] so that's where I think in our space, um, in the SAS space and the channel space is to really make

[00:26:41] sure that you're partnering with good people. And that's why people like you and I, if it's not me,

[00:26:46] let me go find you a couple of people that I think are experts in this space and let's get you

[00:26:50] pointed in the right direction. So that way you're not just looking at like this gigantic bucket

[00:26:55] of software companies that provide all of these services. Let's try to get it narrowed down to

[00:26:59] maybe like two or three that might be really in your wheelhouse and then get you introduced to

[00:27:03] those people again, to try to narrow down those choices. Cause it just seems like you're talking

[00:27:08] about, I mean, it's just, there's so many out there to pick from. So, you know, trying to,

[00:27:12] to work with people that you and I know and trust in the space, and then try to get that,

[00:27:17] that selection down for them to say, Hey, these are some of the people that might be a good fit for

[00:27:20] you and why. Uh, I'm going to go to current events for one second. Cause it came out

[00:27:26] just before this, hopefully I'm not blindsiding you, but, um, so the CEO of Kaseya is moving to

[00:27:33] a board position. Sounds like they're putting a new person in the chair. Uh, that's after

[00:27:39] I think a little more than a new person that's put going in the chair though. I don't know if they did.

[00:27:44] Okay. Uh, but, um, that was, that was a 10 plus year run there. Okay. Um, we, at least,

[00:27:53] you know, on this side of the aisle, right. The vendor side in the sandbox, we, we all talk at

[00:27:58] the bar about all of the comings and goings of the bigs and all the things that are happening in the,

[00:28:02] in the space. Right. You know, like they're, they're at, they're, they're one of the big

[00:28:07] two, three at the top. Right. Well, can't, can't, you know, let's not avoid it. Um, again,

[00:28:13] back to your consulting hat for a second, you know, a lot of people get stuck into, you know,

[00:28:19] a lot, I think I was convinced in my early day, go best in class in each category, right? Pick the

[00:28:26] product that you feel strongest about in each place so that you're, you're putting the best

[00:28:31] foot forward for your end customer. In comes the bundling wars, right? Where these companies get

[00:28:38] acquired, they smash it together. They create a super skew of, you know, all of these products,

[00:28:43] which may not be best in class in every category, but they're best in your price, you know, for the

[00:28:48] MSP, right? How do you, how do you navigate that from your position?

[00:28:54] So there's a couple of different ways to kind of slice and dice that one. So

[00:28:59] sometimes I think for a smaller MSP, it might be easier at that point, if they have just started

[00:29:05] out to go with a bundle, um, because it's less for you to figure out it's, everything is kind of

[00:29:09] all connected now, assuming that it is. So that's where you're going to have to do your due diligence

[00:29:13] and make sure everything is connected on the backend. So that way you can just sort of cherry pick

[00:29:16] what you need. You get one person to talk to, um, which is really helpful when you're small,

[00:29:21] um, to get like an account manager or something like that, that again, you can just, you have

[00:29:25] your person is what I call it. So when you're smaller and you're not really ready to make those

[00:29:30] decisions about, is it best in class for here? Do I need to cherry pick this? Do I need to cherry

[00:29:34] pick that? Also, it's going to be less for your people to learn if everything is kind of in one bundle

[00:29:39] versus if you're pulling from various ecosystems, that's what you have to think about. That's going

[00:29:42] to be a learning curve for your engineers as you bring them on and you grow. Um, so as you're going to be a

[00:29:46] bring on new people, if you've got various things scattered about again, I've got to go here to do

[00:29:51] this. I've got to go here to do this. This is where I get my training over here. I do training over here

[00:29:55] for this one. So again, there's a lot of different factors on that. So as you get bigger, you're

[00:29:59] obviously going to have the capability to be able to cherry pick and get best in class from various

[00:30:04] places. Um, but that means that you're going to have multiple bills. So that means your finance

[00:30:10] person is going to have things to deal with. There's so many facets to, do you go everything in a

[00:30:15] bundle or do you do things on the outside? So again, I think kind of, it depends on the maturity

[00:30:19] of your MSP. Um, what's best for you, what's best for your employees. Um, our clients, I'm going to be

[00:30:25] honest with you. They don't really give a shit. They do not want to know what antivirus I'm using. They

[00:30:29] don't give a flying flip, what firewall I'm using. They don't care. They just want to know that I've got

[00:30:35] it covered. They're going to be taken care of. I am making sure it's the best of our ability that

[00:30:40] they're not going to get hacked, breached, any of that kind of stuff. They don't give a flip about

[00:30:43] anything else. So best in class for an MSP with 300 people and they've got 50,000 endpoints,

[00:30:51] best in class for a five man shop with a hundred, a hundred clients. It's going to be very different.

[00:30:57] It's just a different look. It's a different feel. So I think some of this is, is you have to figure out

[00:31:02] where is the give and take? Do I want to make things easier for my engineers,

[00:31:07] for my finance, for everything right now? And just, you know, just tackle this and let's,

[00:31:11] let's get into this with this. I mean, cause let's be honest, you're not going to grow exponentially

[00:31:15] in three years. You're not going to go from a five man shop to a 250 man shop in three years.

[00:31:20] Not without some sort of external thing. Again, you're going to have to merge with somebody.

[00:31:25] It's not going to happen organically. Um, so, you know, do you just say, you know what,

[00:31:29] let's, we just need to get up and running. I need to have things that are again, best in class.

[00:31:33] I mean, cause even if you're in that, but the bundle or whatever, none of the tools they have

[00:31:37] are junk. I mean, they're good tools. They get, they do what they need to do. They wouldn't have

[00:31:41] purchased them otherwise. I mean, let's be honest about that. Some of them, yeah, they go out cause

[00:31:45] they don't want the competition, but for the most part, they are buying tools that are successful.

[00:31:50] They are provide a really good service. They have a gap maybe that they need to fill in their little,

[00:31:54] you know, bundle package or whatever. And I don't think that Kaseya is any different than that. Yes,

[00:31:59] they are a gajillion dollar industry, but they didn't get that way being dumb.

[00:32:02] Um, and we can talk whatever we want to talk about all the bundle wars, but they are sitting at the top

[00:32:08] of the heap for a reason. I mean, they did things a certain way. You can like it, love it, or hate it.

[00:32:12] They are wildly successful. They have made a ton of money and they offer things to people because

[00:32:17] they have that bundle that some of us may not normally have had access to. Um, so again, it's

[00:32:22] sort of like weighing those options. And again, talking to people like you and I in the space

[00:32:26] and sort of kind of wading through that. That's where you really need to ask questions, um,

[00:32:30] to the owner or to the ops person of the MSP and kind of feel out what it is, what do they have, uh,

[00:32:36] be able to tolerate. And then what is it that we really need to like fix that gap right now?

[00:32:40] And then let that kind of drive us to what choice we need to make.

[00:32:44] That's fair. That's, that's, that's good. It's a good point of view for sure. And I, I definitely agree with you.

[00:32:49] So end customer does not like, if you say Microsoft, maybe they care, but Google now, Amazon now, like other than the household names that we see on the news sticker,

[00:32:59] uh, outside of that, uh, out of sight, out of mind.

[00:33:03] They just want us to handle it. And honestly, I'm not going to talk to them about it. When I go do my QBRs, BCI visits, whatever, I am not telling you what

[00:33:09] I was thinking antivirus I switched over to. I'm showing you the other stuff. How are we developing your roadmap for the next three, five years?

[00:33:17] Whatever it is. We are not talking about your antivirus. We're not talking about how much RAM is in the computers that are on the desktops for the accounting firm.

[00:33:23] And that's just, that's not what, not what we're doing.

[00:33:26] Yeah. Fair enough. Unless it's CrowdStrike. Cause you know, that's the difference.

[00:33:30] Then there's that.

[00:33:31] Uh, I mean, you know, bad news always travels faster than good news, right? I mean.

[00:33:35] That it does, especially in this space.

[00:33:37] That's a fact for sure. Um,

[00:33:41] so my guess is you had a lot of places at your disposal to decide where you wanted to go to here.

[00:33:46] Why LionGuard?

[00:33:49] Uh, so one of the first things for me is always the tech because I'm an IT person and I'm a geek.

[00:33:54] I've got to have like cool, neat tech that I want to go work with.

[00:33:58] Um, this is a little bit different than anything that I've worked for.

[00:34:01] So I love that part because that means I get to dive in and learn something new.

[00:34:04] Um, and the threat landscape pretty much changes every day.

[00:34:09] So I'm really excited about that.

[00:34:11] Um, probably, uh, some of the bigger reasons was, uh, Cardi.

[00:34:15] Um, I mean, she is a goat in this space and being able to learn from her and work with her

[00:34:21] is a game changer for just about anybody.

[00:34:23] Um, Joe is, um, he's incredibly intelligent.

[00:34:28] He is so passionate about LionGuard that I love working for people like that.

[00:34:35] I absolutely do.

[00:34:36] I had a conversation with him in Orlando and this was well before anything else was happening.

[00:34:41] And we were just at, uh, one of the networking events and we were just, you know, having a beer,

[00:34:45] talking or whatever.

[00:34:46] And the passion that he has and the excitement that he has for this company, for the people,

[00:34:51] for the product, for the partners.

[00:34:52] Again, I don't know how everybody doesn't want to work for somebody like that.

[00:34:56] Cause that's the stuff that really makes me excited as a person.

[00:34:59] Um, another one of the things is they have a lot of diversity on their leadership team

[00:35:04] here, um, at LionGuard.

[00:35:06] And at this stage of my career, I tell people I don't chase money anymore.

[00:35:10] Um, I chase leadership and I chase like stability and the tech, um, and being able to see that

[00:35:16] diversity all the way at the leadership level.

[00:35:18] A lot of people are very diverse in the lower levels of a company, but seeing that on the

[00:35:22] leadership side, um, again, that's really, really important for me.

[00:35:25] So I would say that's probably the big three reasons why I came here.

[00:35:28] Awesome.

[00:35:29] Yeah.

[00:35:29] I, I, good people for sure.

[00:35:32] Let's talk about that for a second.

[00:35:33] Cause you know, if I've gotten anything out of this guys, Brooke really is in tune to

[00:35:38] people, right?

[00:35:40] That's a big part of the story.

[00:35:44] So you've now been at multiple companies on the vendor side of the aisle, right?

[00:35:49] Yes, sir.

[00:35:51] Very broad question.

[00:35:52] I'm going to throw it out there.

[00:35:53] See where it goes.

[00:35:54] Okay.

[00:35:55] What works and what doesn't work on that side of the aisle?

[00:35:59] Um, so what doesn't work if we don't have a clear vision that the entire company understands

[00:36:10] and everybody can get behind?

[00:36:12] Uh, that is, and I, I mean, that's for an MSP, but especially so I've noticed it in, uh,

[00:36:17] the SAS space, uh, because we have to pivot a little more frequently than when other industries.

[00:36:24] Um, so making sure that we have a vision that again, everybody understands it makes sense

[00:36:30] to the entire company.

[00:36:31] And then again, you have a leader in the front, which is, you know, Michelle and Joe, and

[00:36:36] they're leading the charge and they're like, this is where we're going.

[00:36:38] This is why we're going there.

[00:36:39] This is how we're going to get it done.

[00:36:41] And we're going through the wall first.

[00:36:43] That, that is what it's, what inspires people to want to be creative and do things for a company.

[00:36:51] And that is what I see work.

[00:36:52] Um, also hiring people sometimes out of the box, um, out of the wheelhouse.

[00:36:59] Uh, the first job that I got in this space was at Pia.

[00:37:02] Uh, and it was myself and Joe.

[00:37:04] We were hired by coach for Pia and Joe and I were not from the channel at all.

[00:37:08] He and I were both hardcore IT people.

[00:37:10] We had been in MSP space forever.

[00:37:12] We're technical.

[00:37:12] So we were very unusual hires for the space, but he and I both latched onto it and we immediately

[00:37:19] brought something to Pia at that time that other people didn't have because they were

[00:37:23] not hiring technical people to, to work on the channel side of the house, especially not

[00:37:27] client facing forward facing towards, you know, the, the attendees and everything that

[00:37:31] were coming there.

[00:37:32] Um, I've also, when I was working at scale pad, uh, there's a gentleman there named Matt.

[00:37:37] He's, uh, in the marketing side of the house.

[00:37:39] He has sort of a philosophy on that thinking about hiring people from different areas because

[00:37:44] they bring something different to the table.

[00:37:46] Again, bringing somebody that's not from the same side all the time, because again, you're

[00:37:51] just getting a bunch of yes, men you're getting the, this is the way that we've always done

[00:37:54] it people.

[00:37:55] Um, and if you ask anybody, I am the, let's question the status quo girl.

[00:37:59] Um, I don't, I mean, my first question is, is why are we doing that way?

[00:38:02] If you can explain it and tell me, this is why it's successful.

[00:38:05] It does this, this is the ROI, whatever.

[00:38:08] Cool.

[00:38:08] Let's keep doing it.

[00:38:09] If I ask you and you're just like, well, that's just how we do it.

[00:38:11] Then I immediately, my eye starts twitching and I'm immediately wanting to figure out

[00:38:14] a different way to do it because there's, is there a better way?

[00:38:17] Is there a more efficient way?

[00:38:18] Is there a cheaper way?

[00:38:19] Um, is there something that's going to make us be more cost effective as a company?

[00:38:23] Is there a different way that's going to bring us different ROI?

[00:38:25] Um, so I would say I've had the pleasure of working for both of those companies and worked

[00:38:31] for a couple of people where again, that philosophy, I think plays huge dividends.

[00:38:35] Yeah, no, I, I dig what you're saying for sure.

[00:38:40] Um, from a strategy standpoint, right?

[00:38:44] What's the best way to get somebody on the MSP side to value what you're do, you know,

[00:38:51] like actually pay attention to what you're saying.

[00:38:53] Cause there's a lot of attention problems and, you know, you know, hate to use the example

[00:38:58] of the trade show, but like you got very small window as somebody walking down the aisle

[00:39:03] to actually hook in and pay attention to what you're doing.

[00:39:06] Right.

[00:39:06] It's just a lot of noise happening, but just in general.

[00:39:08] Right.

[00:39:09] And I, I would love you first to, you know, answer the question or in your response, answer

[00:39:15] the question, how do you get them to buy in?

[00:39:17] But also secondly, here's something that I, I think I have it right, but I want to see

[00:39:21] if you think I have it right.

[00:39:23] I think that less than 10% of all the MSPs that exist in the world, make it to an event

[00:39:30] once a year.

[00:39:31] Do you agree or disagree?

[00:39:32] I don't, I don't disagree with that number at all.

[00:39:34] I think there's so many of them that they can't afford it.

[00:39:37] They're at the top of the food chain.

[00:39:38] They can't leave for two to three days.

[00:39:40] Um, I maybe like, I would maybe want to see something on the 10% part, but I think it's

[00:39:46] a really like you, I mean, 90% of them don't ever make it.

[00:39:49] I would say I would probably lean between 70 and 80, but I think it's a really, really

[00:39:52] high number.

[00:39:53] I think there's a lot of MSPs that don't ever make it to any of these events that we do.

[00:39:57] Okay.

[00:39:57] So piggybacking on the first point, you know, how do you get the MSP to take, you know,

[00:40:01] to value what you do, but then also how do you get to the 90% if they're not going to

[00:40:08] be in front of you?

[00:40:09] What's the strategy?

[00:40:11] So I think there's a couple of ways to tackle that.

[00:40:14] Um, the first one is obviously virtual.

[00:40:16] Um, but you've got to have the right people in place to make that work.

[00:40:19] Cause the last thing I'm going to do personally is sit through a webinar.

[00:40:21] That's 45, 50 minutes.

[00:40:22] And it's just dull as a butter knife, hard pass.

[00:40:24] Don't want to do it.

[00:40:26] Um, I also don't like the ones where again, it's a risk.

[00:40:29] Uh, I like all of mine that I do.

[00:40:31] I do them live like this one.

[00:40:32] I let people ask questions.

[00:40:34] A lot of people are really, really feel fearful of that.

[00:40:36] Um, I think that's a huge misstep.

[00:40:38] People want to be able to talk to you, ask questions, even if I don't have the answer.

[00:40:44] Absolutely.

[00:40:44] Want to get that answered.

[00:40:46] Shoot me your email address.

[00:40:47] When I get off this call, I will go track it down and I will let you know.

[00:40:50] Um, so having virtual webinars, virtual lunch and learns, whatever you want to call them.

[00:40:56] I think they can be wildly successful because it's like one to many.

[00:40:59] Um, but you've got to have the right parts of people.

[00:41:01] And honestly, you have to have the right personalities.

[00:41:03] Um, again, you can't have somebody that's just like reading off of a slide deck.

[00:41:07] Let's go through this together.

[00:41:09] Okay.

[00:41:09] Okay.

[00:41:10] That was really cool.

[00:41:11] Your call to action is to click on this link or scan this QR code and we're going to do

[00:41:15] whatever.

[00:41:16] I mean, no, a nobody's coming back.

[00:41:19] They don't give a flip.

[00:41:19] This was boring.

[00:41:20] I don't want to do it again.

[00:41:21] Um, so having the right people and having the right format for that.

[00:41:25] Um, I really like the, uh, idea and strategy of going to what I call mid markets.

[00:41:33] Um, cause a lot of the places we do the same events in the same places.

[00:41:36] We go to Orlando upteen times a year.

[00:41:38] We go to Dallas a lot.

[00:41:40] Um, Nashville's a hot one, but there was a lot of other places where they are really

[00:41:44] tech heavy that we don't go.

[00:41:45] So what if we did something instead of spending a kajillion dollars at one of these tier one

[00:41:50] events, what if we split that money differently?

[00:41:52] Let's think about it differently.

[00:41:53] Let's go do a roadshow in Minneapolis.

[00:41:56] Minneapolis is a tech hub.

[00:41:58] Nobody goes there.

[00:41:59] What if we did like a little half day, one day thing there, partner up with some other

[00:42:03] vendors and do some cool lunch and learn thing.

[00:42:05] If you'd be surprised who you could get to come there.

[00:42:08] So think geographically, because I think a lot of it is, is geography.

[00:42:12] It's we, we go to places that are really far for certain people to go to.

[00:42:16] Um, so doing that, um, and again, to get people to listen to you.

[00:42:20] Um, I would say one of the things that you and I probably do differently is from everybody

[00:42:25] else that's in the space is we listen and we ask questions.

[00:42:28] Um, again, I, I, I'm not sales.

[00:42:30] I've never worked in sales in my life.

[00:42:32] I talk to people when they come by the event, the booth, we're at the lobby bar, we're at

[00:42:37] a networking event or whatever.

[00:42:38] Just ask them questions.

[00:42:40] Hey, you know, where are you at?

[00:42:41] Where are you from?

[00:42:42] What's your MSP look like?

[00:42:43] What kind of clients do y'all have?

[00:42:45] Oh shoot.

[00:42:46] I didn't even think about those kinds of people.

[00:42:47] Again, you just have those sort of organic conversations.

[00:42:50] And then that turns into, they kind of spill the beans on, man, we are really struggling

[00:42:55] with X, Y, and Z right now.

[00:42:57] And maybe I'm X, but maybe I can help them with the Y and Z by finding somebody else that

[00:43:01] I know, because we know so many people in this space.

[00:43:04] How can I get them in the direction and guide and advise them?

[00:43:07] And I think that's something that's not done in the SaaS space, that that would make things

[00:43:12] so much better.

[00:43:12] Again, if it's not me, I know a guy, let me go find this person, introduce you, explain

[00:43:17] to them kind of what's going on and get you guys, you know, situated or whatever, and

[00:43:21] then let y'all take it from there.

[00:43:22] I think there's not enough of that done.

[00:43:25] I agree.

[00:43:26] I agree.

[00:43:27] Do you subscribe or do you think it's bogus, this best in class MSP top quartile 20

[00:43:37] percent plus to the bottom line model?

[00:43:40] I mean, listen, you know, this is just me regurgitating what's out there, right?

[00:43:45] Like, is this a thing or has people created like a picture perfect unattainable goal?

[00:43:53] I think some of it is unattainable.

[00:43:56] And I think there is.

[00:43:59] I think you need to have best for your MSP and best for your clients.

[00:44:03] I think that should be your best in class goal rather than trying to achieve something

[00:44:07] that somebody in a different MSP did in a different market or whatever.

[00:44:11] The guy that I consulted with in Brooklyn versus the guy that I had in Durango, Colorado,

[00:44:16] they are not going to be the same.

[00:44:17] So what is best for those people are very different things.

[00:44:21] Now, there's some of the numbers that come out there.

[00:44:24] I mean, I think it's, you know, it's definitely interesting to say this is best in class.

[00:44:27] This is like one of the big ones I always like I want to hear about is the tech to endpoint

[00:44:32] ratio because there's so many things that affect that.

[00:44:35] And people love to throw that number out there.

[00:44:37] Best in class is, you know, like every tech has, you know, 750 endpoints, which looks really

[00:44:42] good on your bottom line.

[00:44:44] But are you killing your techs?

[00:44:46] You know, I mean, if that, if that number, I mean, is, you know, do you have really high

[00:44:50] turnover?

[00:44:50] And again, sort of, there's certain numbers that I like to listen to and, and sort of

[00:44:55] digest.

[00:44:57] Can it make it be a goal?

[00:44:58] Like, you know, hey, this is, we call them the BHAGs, you know, big, hairy, unattainable

[00:45:04] goal.

[00:45:04] Is it something we can strive for?

[00:45:06] Can I use it as a benchmark?

[00:45:08] Say, okay, best in class is 750.

[00:45:09] We're sitting at like 150 now.

[00:45:12] So maybe, you know, we're never going to get there, but let's see if we can get a little

[00:45:15] better next year than we can this year.

[00:45:16] Let's see if maybe we can have, you know, you know, instead of 150, we get to like 200,

[00:45:21] 215 again, to try to achieve those goals.

[00:45:23] Because I think that's a huge mistake if you're constantly looking at that number versus having

[00:45:27] what I call baby steps.

[00:45:30] Try to make the baby steps for the goals that you're trying to achieve, because you have

[00:45:33] to show wins to your staff in order to get them to keep buying in on whatever it is that

[00:45:39] you're going to try to accomplish next.

[00:45:40] So if you've got this goal, best in class is one to 850, and we're sitting at 100, that

[00:45:46] is a really long stretch.

[00:45:47] So why don't we try to get from 100 to 125 next year or 150, whatever it is, and make

[00:45:52] it a baby step.

[00:45:53] And then as you get closer, then you can be like, look at that.

[00:45:56] We are like right there for this best in class thing.

[00:45:59] And that will really like get all of your people excited about that.

[00:46:02] So they're like stretch goals.

[00:46:04] It is, but I think some of them you got to take with a grain of salt.

[00:46:06] Some of them I think some of the numbers are fudged, because if you look at the math,

[00:46:11] that math is not mathing.

[00:46:13] I don't know how in the world you came up with this number, because if we do the math, it is

[00:46:17] literally impossible to get there.

[00:46:20] So some of them I think you just kind of take them with a grain of salt.

[00:46:23] But again, I love listening when people talk about that and they do the metrics.

[00:46:27] Jay McVane is one of my favorite people to sit in on, because he always has some next level

[00:46:31] information data that he's able to give us.

[00:46:34] And then what little nugget or tidbit can I take out of that?

[00:46:37] And then use that when I go on the road and I'm talking to these various MSPs that I talk

[00:46:41] to, kind of what little thing can I take out of that, that this is something that we can

[00:46:44] work towards together.

[00:46:46] Okay.

[00:46:46] So now I've talked about this topic a lot, but I'm curious what your point of view is.

[00:46:54] So, you know, very super profitable or really good customer experience.

[00:47:00] For some reason, these two things should parallel each other.

[00:47:04] They don't, which then brings me into modern day, right?

[00:47:07] Like if I just go backwards just a little bit, you know, there was, Hey, I'm glass ceiling

[00:47:13] with my, with my personnel.

[00:47:14] I can't get enough people to handle the clientele.

[00:47:18] So I'm going to start to outsource stuff.

[00:47:20] We had the Dells and HPs and calling places that couldn't understand people on the other side

[00:47:25] of the phone.

[00:47:25] Just being honest.

[00:47:27] Right.

[00:47:27] And then, then we turned into, all right, well, if we can't outsource, let's bring that

[00:47:34] back and kind of what they call it in source.

[00:47:37] Right.

[00:47:38] And like try and do that domestically, but still not your people.

[00:47:41] You're kind of using all this outside stuff.

[00:47:43] Can you cobble it together?

[00:47:44] And then it turned into now the, uh, can we use this AI thing to like automate the front

[00:47:52] line, take the person out, use a machine to be the front line, save money that way.

[00:47:58] And like all of this is all the same conversation, different catch up, right?

[00:48:05] Like you are trying to water down your costs to service your customer, but your customer doesn't

[00:48:13] stay.

[00:48:13] If their experience isn't good.

[00:48:16] How do we fix this?

[00:48:18] Uh, that's a question that's been going on for a long time.

[00:48:22] I will that.

[00:48:23] And it's an interesting conversation because pre COVID people wanted, and I say people like

[00:48:28] the MSPs I was working for with their clients wanted 24 seven sport.

[00:48:32] They didn't, I want to call at two o'clock in the morning, get somebody on the phone.

[00:48:34] So that's, I think in my experience, we went through that.

[00:48:38] We're going to outsource out the wazoo.

[00:48:39] You can call, you can talk to some guy in another part of the world at 2am, whatever.

[00:48:43] Cause my guys in Dallas, Texas are asleep.

[00:48:46] Um, post COVID and during COVID, I saw a shift with people that I was working with specifically

[00:48:52] that they wanted to go back to talking to people that work directly at that MSP.

[00:48:58] They were willing to say, I don't really need help at two in the morning.

[00:49:02] That's it's unreasonable.

[00:49:03] It's whatever.

[00:49:03] And it gave them, I call it sort of like the warm fuzzies.

[00:49:06] They wanted to talk to people that were local because a lot of the MSPs that we deal with,

[00:49:09] they're local.

[00:49:09] They're in a local town.

[00:49:10] Their clients are local.

[00:49:11] They run into them at the grocery store.

[00:49:13] Their kids go to the same school.

[00:49:14] They go to the same churches, all of that type of stuff.

[00:49:17] And it made them feel better to deal with people that were there.

[00:49:19] And there's, I'm a huge proponent of that because as the MSP, if I can help this client

[00:49:23] succeed, I can help better my entire community.

[00:49:26] If they grow, that means they have more jobs to offer.

[00:49:29] If they have more jobs to offer, that means that people that work in my community, again,

[00:49:32] are able to have careers and stay.

[00:49:34] They don't leave.

[00:49:35] They don't go somewhere else.

[00:49:36] Kids go to college.

[00:49:36] They end up staying there.

[00:49:37] Again, it's a cycle.

[00:49:39] But again, MSPs have such impact on that.

[00:49:42] I don't think a lot of them realize it.

[00:49:45] The outsourcing thing, I get it.

[00:49:47] I get that you want more to your bottom line.

[00:49:51] But some of the pushback that I will have on that with some of the MSPs is, number one,

[00:49:55] do you have the right clients?

[00:49:57] Do you have the right clients that value what you and your people are bringing to the table?

[00:50:01] Or do they just want some guy on the phone every five seconds to fix whatever?

[00:50:05] I would bet if we did some analysis on that client, that client's probably not a good fit

[00:50:10] for you anymore.

[00:50:10] They are probably eating your lunch.

[00:50:12] They're probably making your, and not in more ways than one.

[00:50:15] Yes, maybe on the bottom line, and that's why you want to go outsourced.

[00:50:18] Because again, they're upside down on their agreement.

[00:50:20] And if I outsource it, and it's cheaper, and it's whatever.

[00:50:23] But do you really need to keep that client?

[00:50:25] Are they the squeaky wheel that's just causing so many problems for your staff?

[00:50:29] They don't ever want to get on board with my QBRs.

[00:50:30] It's always a fight to get everything.

[00:50:32] I mean, everything's a, you know, we're fighting over pennies constantly.

[00:50:35] Do we just need to let that client go at the end of the day?

[00:50:38] So maybe that's some of the option.

[00:50:40] As far as the AI stuff on the front end,

[00:50:43] I don't have a huge issue with that,

[00:50:45] especially for like the ticky tack stuff,

[00:50:47] like, you know, the password resets,

[00:50:49] you know, setting up mail forwarding, that kind of junk.

[00:50:51] I don't really have a big deal on that one.

[00:50:53] But part of it is, is I don't think your clients should know

[00:50:56] that it's AI that's doing it.

[00:50:58] They still want the comfort of picking up the phone

[00:51:00] and calling me and saying,

[00:51:02] hey, Brooke, how's it going?

[00:51:04] And I'm like, hey, George, how are you doing?

[00:51:05] Oh my gosh, our printer's not working again, whatever.

[00:51:08] Oh man, let me remote in and let me get that fixed for you.

[00:51:10] Now, may I be using an AI tool to troubleshoot that printer

[00:51:14] and do it while I'm doing three other things?

[00:51:15] Yes.

[00:51:16] The client doesn't want to know.

[00:51:17] I think there's definitely, in our space,

[00:51:20] we're definitely more AI friendly than other people.

[00:51:21] But I think a lot of our clients,

[00:51:23] they are still very fearful of that.

[00:51:25] So even if it's AI doing it,

[00:51:27] maybe to solve the ticket or to get us to the point

[00:51:29] where we need to escalate or whatever,

[00:51:32] I still think they want a human person

[00:51:34] that's overseeing it, monitoring it,

[00:51:36] managing it, that type of thing.

[00:51:39] So we're using AI as a backend tool in this example.

[00:51:43] We're not eliminating the actual communication point

[00:51:47] where your customer is talking to an answering machine

[00:51:51] with a computer plugged into the back of it

[00:51:53] and they got to get frustrated

[00:51:55] before they get to the human being.

[00:51:57] We all do it.

[00:51:58] I'm on the phone and I just keep saying customer support,

[00:52:00] customer support.

[00:52:01] I don't press the buttons.

[00:52:02] I don't do this stuff

[00:52:02] because I want to talk to a live person

[00:52:04] to fix whatever the problem is that I'm having.

[00:52:06] We all do it in various facets.

[00:52:08] And I think when you go past that point

[00:52:10] to where they don't have that human interaction anymore,

[00:52:13] I think that's where you really run the risk

[00:52:15] of losing clients

[00:52:16] because they hired you because of you and your people.

[00:52:19] And again, that's going back to that initial thing

[00:52:21] I said at the beginning.

[00:52:21] There's two things that make every MSP different.

[00:52:24] It's the people that work for you

[00:52:25] and it's your clients.

[00:52:25] Those are the two differentiators.

[00:52:27] And if you start losing those,

[00:52:28] you're going to be in a really bad spot.

[00:52:30] I agree.

[00:52:31] I agree.

[00:52:32] And I even argue that even if we fast forward

[00:52:36] three years from now

[00:52:37] and more of this technology is adopted

[00:52:40] and we experiment with it,

[00:52:42] that some people will be willing to pay the premium

[00:52:46] to not go down that lane as a customer.

[00:52:50] Absolutely.

[00:52:51] It's like, hey, I want the VIP lane.

[00:52:52] Give me the red carpet.

[00:52:54] You're going to charge me an extra 10, 15, 20%.

[00:52:56] I'm good with that.

[00:52:58] I had an MSP that I worked with.

[00:53:00] We switched firewall vendors

[00:53:01] because when a firewall goes down at an MSP,

[00:53:04] I mean, it's dead.

[00:53:04] I know it is.

[00:53:05] I don't want to argue about it.

[00:53:06] I don't want to troubleshoot for three and a half days.

[00:53:08] I want to call somebody up and say,

[00:53:09] hey, firewall model XYZ took a, you know what?

[00:53:12] I need you to overnight me one

[00:53:13] and I want to see one on my doorstep the next morning.

[00:53:16] We switched vendors

[00:53:17] because this particular vendor for that firewall,

[00:53:20] now I'm overseas.

[00:53:21] I've got to go through this whole process.

[00:53:23] I've got to press the buttons on the phone

[00:53:24] and the whatever.

[00:53:25] And it's literally a day and a half, two days later.

[00:53:27] So, okay, cool.

[00:53:29] But now that means I've got to carry firewalls,

[00:53:32] spares on my shelf.

[00:53:34] That goes on my bottom line.

[00:53:35] So now I've got to constantly keep all of this equipment

[00:53:37] back there on the shelf.

[00:53:38] Somebody's got to pull it off.

[00:53:39] We've got to update the firmware.

[00:53:40] Again, it's all this stuff that goes into it.

[00:53:42] I would rather pay more.

[00:53:44] Am I really paying more?

[00:53:45] In the long run, probably not

[00:53:47] because I want to talk to a person.

[00:53:48] I want that red carpet treatment.

[00:53:50] So I've done that in an MSP before

[00:53:51] and I think 100% there's a client

[00:53:53] that I worked with up in,

[00:53:55] he was in Brooklyn.

[00:53:57] He, people would call it a boutique MSP.

[00:54:00] I don't think so.

[00:54:01] He had solid clients.

[00:54:02] He was small, had no, didn't want to grow.

[00:54:05] He was perfectly happy where he was at.

[00:54:07] Zero turnover.

[00:54:08] Texts were happy.

[00:54:09] Clients were happy.

[00:54:10] And it was calling people on the phone

[00:54:12] and talking to people on the phone.

[00:54:13] There was nothing automated.

[00:54:14] We didn't like go through and put in a chat request

[00:54:17] or whatever.

[00:54:18] They picked up the phone.

[00:54:19] They called the text.

[00:54:20] The text fixed the problem.

[00:54:21] They had a site.

[00:54:21] That dude was wildly successful.

[00:54:23] He made so much money,

[00:54:26] but he charged a premium.

[00:54:27] It was an, he was an expensive MSP,

[00:54:29] but you got that treatment

[00:54:31] and you got the one-on-one.

[00:54:32] Everybody knew everybody again

[00:54:33] and he had no turnover.

[00:54:35] I think I helped him for like a year and a half,

[00:54:37] two years.

[00:54:38] Not one single person left, quit, got fired, anybody.

[00:54:42] None of that stuff.

[00:54:42] And people were like chomping at the bit

[00:54:44] and asking, are you hiring new engineers?

[00:54:46] Again, he grew a little bit,

[00:54:48] you know, from time to time,

[00:54:49] but he wasn't like all the other MSPs.

[00:54:51] I got to grow by X.

[00:54:52] I got to grow by Y.

[00:54:53] I got to do this.

[00:54:54] And again, he was wildly successful,

[00:54:56] made a ton of money.

[00:54:59] Doing whatever, but he charged a premium.

[00:55:01] He was a premium MSP

[00:55:02] and he charged good money for it.

[00:55:04] And there were literally clients

[00:55:05] waiting to get in the door.

[00:55:08] Premium MSP.

[00:55:09] I like that.

[00:55:10] We're going to, we're going to,

[00:55:11] we're going to talk more about that

[00:55:12] on another call.

[00:55:14] Brooke.

[00:55:15] Wow.

[00:55:16] You are just an encyclopedia of experience.

[00:55:19] This is awesome.

[00:55:21] I wish you had another hour.

[00:55:23] I got more.

[00:55:24] I got more questions, but that's cool.

[00:55:26] We'll do this at the bar somewhere down the line.

[00:55:28] We'll do another one of these.

[00:55:30] Where do people find you?

[00:55:32] They want to pick your brain

[00:55:33] because it sounds like you're open

[00:55:35] to helping people, which is awesome.

[00:55:37] Always willing to help.

[00:55:38] And where do people then find more information

[00:55:39] about your company?

[00:55:41] And if you want to send them somewhere,

[00:55:43] here's the top.

[00:55:44] Yep.

[00:55:44] So LionGuard, LionGuard.com.

[00:55:47] You can go to our website.

[00:55:49] I will tell everybody,

[00:55:50] we just dropped some new stuff today.

[00:55:52] So there's some exciting new stuff out there

[00:55:53] with the asset inventory

[00:55:55] that we've got going on.

[00:55:56] One of my favorite things about LionGuard

[00:55:58] is we have LionGuard Academy.

[00:56:00] You can literally go get LionGuard certifications

[00:56:03] for all the different pathways

[00:56:05] that you can take within the company.

[00:56:06] You can always email me, brookatlionguard.com.

[00:56:09] We are about to hit the road like everybody else.

[00:56:11] So we're going to be at a lot of shows.

[00:56:12] The first big one we're going to be at

[00:56:14] is going to be Ride a Boom.

[00:56:15] We'll have a lot of people there for that.

[00:56:17] So definitely stop by the booth and see us.

[00:56:18] Again, go visit the website,

[00:56:19] reach out to me on LinkedIn,

[00:56:21] shoot me an email.

[00:56:22] Happy to help anybody however I can, always.

[00:56:25] That's awesome.

[00:56:26] So guys, if you're listening to this podcast,

[00:56:28] Brooke spells her name B-R-O-O-K.

[00:56:31] So nothing special there.

[00:56:33] Don't mess up the spelling.

[00:56:34] Last name Lee, L-E-E, simple as can be.

[00:56:38] And LionGuard is spelled,

[00:56:39] if you haven't seen it before,

[00:56:40] L-I-O-N-G-A-R-D.

[00:56:43] There's no U in there.

[00:56:45] LionGuard.com.

[00:56:46] Brooke, we should definitely do more of this.

[00:56:49] I had a great time.

[00:56:50] This was super fun.

[00:56:51] We should like bring other people in

[00:56:52] and grill them.

[00:56:53] It'll be great.

[00:56:53] We will.

[00:56:54] Maybe we'll, I see,

[00:56:56] I think I saw your buddy coach on there

[00:56:57] on the back end.

[00:56:58] We'll bring him in on the next one.

[00:57:00] That'll be a good one.

[00:57:01] And David Tulip.

[00:57:02] I mean, that's always a good time.

[00:57:03] David, he's always fun.

[00:57:04] He's got, and he's one of those,

[00:57:06] he knows a ton of stuff.

[00:57:07] He's been in the business for a while.

[00:57:08] So he's always somebody we can get

[00:57:09] some good debate going on.

[00:57:11] Oh yeah.

[00:57:11] We brought him over to Philly.

[00:57:12] Gave him a little bit of the,

[00:57:13] you know, the non-UK experience.

[00:57:15] That was good.

[00:57:16] I'm sure he loved that.

[00:57:17] That was good time.

[00:57:19] Guys, this session was absolutely recorded.

[00:57:20] Go back and rewind and listen to some of this.

[00:57:22] I want you to walk out of this with,

[00:57:25] I took away people.

[00:57:27] Broke's really good at people.

[00:57:28] Seems like better than I ever was.

[00:57:30] That's good.

[00:57:31] Two, premium MSP.

[00:57:34] This, there's some,

[00:57:35] there's a thread here.

[00:57:36] I like this.

[00:57:37] I would rather be the guy

[00:57:39] that people are waiting around the corner

[00:57:40] in line to get to

[00:57:42] than the next guy on the block.

[00:57:43] I think there's something there.

[00:57:45] Okay.

[00:57:46] Okay.

[00:57:47] We're going to,

[00:57:47] we're going to,

[00:57:47] we're going to pull on that.

[00:57:48] Maybe we'll,

[00:57:49] maybe we'll do something on that one.

[00:57:50] We'll have,

[00:57:50] we'll have a conversation at the bar.

[00:57:51] See if we can expand on that one.

[00:57:53] I like it.

[00:57:53] I like it a lot.

[00:57:54] So you'll find this session

[00:57:56] posted later on today.

[00:57:57] MSPinitiative.com under sessions.

[00:57:59] I'll link you to the podcast,

[00:58:00] YouTube page,

[00:58:01] whatever format you like it in.

[00:58:02] It's there.

[00:58:03] Brooke, thank you.

[00:58:04] Thank you.

[00:58:04] Thank you for spending an hour with us.

[00:58:05] Can't wait to see you in person.

[00:58:08] All right.

[00:58:08] Bye.

[00:58:09] Bye guys.