Dom Kirby of Pax8

[00:00:01] Hello ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of the MSP Initiative MSP talk

[00:00:09] You know we you know if you follow this, you know, you know what I'm about to do the housekeeping get out of the way

[00:00:14] Now we'll get to the good stuff. So here we go. That is what this is MSP initiative

[00:00:19] Com this is everything that we do here at MSP initiative. So this session for example is being recorded

[00:00:24] We'll put it on all our pod catchers and streams and YouTube pages

[00:00:28] So like like subscribe follow share all that good stuff, you know what to do

[00:00:32] We have MSP community minds is our educational event that we do did one last year in Denver next one's coming up in Nashville

[00:00:39] April 17th and 18th. We have a salute of

[00:00:43] MSPs from the real world who are still active MSPs running their businesses that are coming to speak on panels

[00:00:52] This is these are the people that you want to hear from right? They're not trying to give you an idea

[00:00:55] They're trying to tell you what's working for them and what's not that's the fastest way to learn in my opinion

[00:01:00] We also have experts around the industry that are going to be presenting on

[00:01:05] workshops not hey

[00:01:07] We think you oughta or maybe you should look into it

[00:01:10] We're gonna give you actionable information that you can take back and apply to your businesses

[00:01:16] In multiple categories. So go to MSP initiative comm on the community minds

[00:01:20] Check out all the speakers from panelists to workshop people and then the agenda for April 17th and 18th is posted

[00:01:28] Here's a cheat sheet morning times. We're doing panels MSP panels

[00:01:32] After yeah, there's lunch right and then afternoon times. We're doing workshops

[00:01:36] So you'll get to pick which workshops you go to we'll try and load balance as best we can

[00:01:41] By the way this event

[00:01:43] Absolutely free for you to register as an MSP in the tent will why new dye new teach you

[00:01:49] You have some cool after hours activities plan

[00:01:52] So if you would like to join us go to MSP initiative comm under a community minds and register

[00:01:58] It does not cost anything 399 999 1299. There's no registration fee. It is free. Yes

[00:02:04] I do understand you have to get there. Sorry, but I promise it'll be worth your while

[00:02:09] So there's that now

[00:02:11] The thing that everybody knows this for I think are after power after parties block parties party parties

[00:02:18] We have a lot of these happening this year the next two that are coming up happen to be the exact same week

[00:02:24] week of uh, June 9th

[00:02:27] So we'll be uh, be doing a block party with our friends from packs eight at packs eight beyond in Denver

[00:02:32] This was an absolutely epic event last year. It's gonna be even bigger this year. Um, so if you

[00:02:38] Um, or even in the msp sandbox, maybe you're not even working packs eight

[00:02:43] You should check this out

[00:02:44] I think it's gonna be worth your while and then if you're on the other side of the ocean our friends from europe

[00:02:49] Uh, we'll be going back to say that a conan dublin

[00:02:54] We have an absolute awesome time there last year as well

[00:02:57] We are you know, go rock and roll do the block party there, uh, or the official after party

[00:03:01] I think is what they're calling it. Uh, so we're we're excited for this one as well

[00:03:05] So whichever side the ocean you're on that week

[00:03:07] We will be partying with you and by the way, if you're in msp costs you absolutely nothing to join

[00:03:12] You do have to register ahead of time. We encourage you to so you don't get stuck in a line

[00:03:17] Typing information into your phone. So there's that

[00:03:20] We have some community offers these are just deals and hookups from other uh companies in the space

[00:03:24] If they work for you awesome and our industry calendar

[00:03:28] My good friend gen behind the scene spends

[00:03:30] Plenty of time across the year adding to this updating this there's over 300 events in here for the year and that's just

[00:03:37] I think north american ones. There's a whole slew of other events that we're adding on the european side as well

[00:03:42] So that being said check it out if that helps you mspinisha.com

[00:03:47] Housekeeping is now done and out of the way. I am happy to welcome the next guest on our show today. Um

[00:03:57] You know, there's there's a lot of people in the sandbox that

[00:04:01] Talk about a lot of things but I love talking to people who

[00:04:04] Actually care about the things that they're talking about they live it. They breathe it

[00:04:08] You absolutely find that and my good friend dom kerby from taxate. How you doing today dom?

[00:04:14] Man, i'm doing fantastic. I'm excited to be on the show. I've been waiting for my invite so

[00:04:20] Thanks for having me

[00:04:21] Welcome, welcome. Welcome. I you know, I knew you were worried. I flew out to denver. Yes like sunday night

[00:04:27] I missed the the second half of wrestlemania here in philadelphia to go scope out some venues for the taxate beyond msp

[00:04:35] Initiative block party and I got five o'clock this morning and I absolutely am here. So don't worry man. I made it

[00:04:43] Looking really forward to taxate beyond. I know we'll probably have rob ray on at some point to talk about everything that's going to be happening at beyond

[00:04:50] Um, I know that that's like the big I mean, there's there's actually two beyonds this year, right? There's

[00:04:57] There's a denver in june and I believe in october. There's berlin

[00:05:01] Yeah, yeah first year of amoeba beyond

[00:05:05] second year of

[00:05:06] us beyond so i'm excited that we're

[00:05:09] So rapidly expanding that

[00:05:11] That's awesome. Yeah, I mean

[00:05:13] Great team that you have over there looking really forward to them. I just a lot of interest for sure

[00:05:17] I think last year was real at least the denver one. That's the one that happened was really well went really well

[00:05:22] um

[00:05:23] Tom, I yeah, especially when I have people on for the first time. I like to like

[00:05:27] Kind of give people a little bit of your background, right? Like you didn't start at pack state, right?

[00:05:32] You had a whole journey before then so

[00:05:34] Would love for you to like, you know go down memory lane a little bit and maybe give the listeners and viewers of this episode a little bit of background

[00:05:42] Yeah, so I realized recently i'm on year year 14 of it

[00:05:46] Uh and cyber uh, i'm on year five at pack states

[00:05:49] I'll be my my fifth year anniversary coming up in september, but who's counting?

[00:05:53] You know my my entire private sector background has been some form of channel

[00:05:57] I think even before I understood like what the channel was and that there was this whole community element

[00:06:02] Um, and I've loved every minute of it. So I started at like an it sp that was literally neighboring to my school

[00:06:09] Uh, you know, I my teacher taught me how to write a cover letter and I wrote a cover letter

[00:06:13] And it was like hey, I want to do this computer shit and uh, that's literally how my journey started

[00:06:18] You know someone took a chance on me

[00:06:20] Mentored me and I grew my career from there

[00:06:22] Um, spent spent a little bit of time in the spook space

[00:06:26] You know, I don't really talk about it a ton just because I I don't like to leverage it as like a

[00:06:31] Cool factor because it's really not like I sat in a computer in a more secure room than i'm currently sitting in now

[00:06:36] So like don't get too excited

[00:06:38] Uh and uh, and then I ran my own msp after that

[00:06:42] So I left that space started up a shop really focused on consulting

[00:06:47] For a while before I realized that you know monthly recurring revenue was a valuable thing to have

[00:06:52] Um, so in in that space, you know, I I got to work with

[00:06:57] big companies with names on buildings and

[00:07:01] What what I call liquidly called tim's kitten shop like, you know the good old fashioned american small business

[00:07:06] Uh

[00:07:07] And they each have their challenges, but I really like smb

[00:07:10] So I went the managed services route kind of grew up on the msp space on the on the og discord and rmsp

[00:07:19] um, and in 20 was the 2019 I uh, I was like, you know, I love this but i'm kind of done own in a business

[00:07:27] So I want to stay close to it and the the pack state opportunity opened up and I've grown a lot through pack state and uh

[00:07:34] So I've always been very security focused and very sort of modern workplace digital transformation focused

[00:07:39] So I was able to bring that to pack state and help build our professional services organization and

[00:07:43] Work really closely with matt on a lot of our cyber education and evangelism initiatives

[00:07:47] And that's where my heart is

[00:07:49] Right, there's there's two thirds of the economy a small business

[00:07:52] But they're they're you know 80 some odd percent of the cyber trouble we have right now

[00:07:57] It's so true so true. So today what is your like so I got the evangelism part and you guys do a ton of them by the way

[00:08:05] Feel free to let people know all the stuff that you guys do on a regular basis

[00:08:08] I know that there's like a pretty cool schedule that you guys run on

[00:08:12] But like outside of that the other part of your like day job at pack state. I think is

[00:08:18] Professional services

[00:08:19] Yeah, yeah, that's my core function right and and pro serve uh is near and dear to my heart

[00:08:24] Um, I have a fantastic team that does fantastic work

[00:08:28] And the whole the whole concept is like when I was running my msp

[00:08:33] A lot of the time when I would find a talent constraint was when we had a lot of one-time projects

[00:08:37] A lot of stuff that like we've agreed to do now we need to find time to do it

[00:08:42] And that's really where my team steps in as you can you can get services from us

[00:08:48] across the microsoft environment including dynamics

[00:08:52] and

[00:08:53] Get shit done essentially right so whether it's it's outside of of your skill base which is common right if you're moving into azure for the first time

[00:09:01] That's a different different world

[00:09:03] Or you just need capacity. So I have a an infrastructure team on a workplace team

[00:09:07] We're building out a security products team for some upcoming stuff that i'm excited about

[00:09:12] Uh to help help partners kind of adopt products more efficiently and comprehensively

[00:09:17] um

[00:09:18] And and then our business applications group which focuses on uh microsoft dynamics and sort of the erp crm space

[00:09:25] So it's really just we're here

[00:09:27] We we provide services at a mark up a bull rate

[00:09:31] So that there's some margin built into that

[00:09:33] And our only mission is really get get your customers

[00:09:38] Down their business journey right help you accomplish that. Yeah, I mean

[00:09:42] The average msp like i mean there are mega msp's don't get me wrong

[00:09:46] But like when you when you when you put a little rex frank on the shelf for a second take the operational maturity size

[00:09:51] It's a question, you know conversation put it over here for a minute

[00:09:54] average msp is probably

[00:09:56] Sub 20 maybe even sub 15 sub 10 somewhere in that range. Yeah

[00:10:00] um

[00:10:01] Project work is time consuming and quite frankly. I think the competency depending on what you're doing

[00:10:06] May not be there right like they're kind of learning on the job

[00:10:10] um

[00:10:12] So like the fact that there's an outlet that will do that will do work. I assume that there's like a

[00:10:18] I mean maybe walk us through the process real quick it like if let's say somebody's like hey, I got a project. How do I figure out

[00:10:25] What's included in the work that you do and how how much are you going to charge me for?

[00:10:30] Yeah, so we're we're in the middle of a rebuilding and sort of standardization process

[00:10:34] So it's it's it's in a state of change

[00:10:37] We've partnered with microsoft to build best practices and then we take those and we talk to

[00:10:42] Pack members and just general msp's that we know and we say hey, here's how we'd like to see things done

[00:10:47] Does this vibe with kind of what you want to accomplish?

[00:10:50] Uh, and we've hit the mark for the most part. We're making adjustments

[00:10:54] Um, but to work with us. It's it's super straightforward. There's a product in our marketplace called called packsape professional services

[00:11:01] It's zero dollars. You you buy it and that that triggers my team to work with you

[00:11:06] So we'll we'll get you on a call. I have a pre-sales group that they're called discovery

[00:11:10] They work through like what are you actually trying to do here?

[00:11:13] They'll run you through whatever technical steps we need from you to measure with precision and then they'll get you a scope of work

[00:11:18] That'll have pricing and things like that

[00:11:21] Um, a really interesting thing we're able to do is because of our scale and position

[00:11:26] Uh, is we have funding programs for microsoft. So I don't think this year actually there's been one

[00:11:31] So I've charged one partner this year for an azure migration

[00:11:34] Microsoft has picked up the rest of the bills

[00:11:37] Which is a fantastic program. Uh, and we're just now starting to expand that into security and model workplace

[00:11:43] Um, but yeah, you get a scope of work. You sign it. I have a full operations team of project managers and coordinators that keeps things on the tracks

[00:11:50] Uh, and then our engineers execute alongside you. So it's a shared responsibility model

[00:11:55] Uh, I'm not going to go set up your end users cell phones

[00:11:59] But we'll take care of all the back end work at the data where it needs to be looking how it needs to look

[00:12:03] I just want to make sure I heard you right

[00:12:06] You've only charged

[00:12:08] One msp for a microsoft azure migration this year and the rest I assume there's been more than one

[00:12:15] Have been still work here. So yeah, definitely more than one. Yeah, so so the rest have been covered by microsoft as in the bill to the msp is zero

[00:12:23] Yeah, yeah, so we have program microsoft

[00:12:25] Uh, it's through their azure migrate modernized program, right?

[00:12:28] So we we've earned the competencies to be in that or badges to be in that program

[00:12:34] Um because of our scale. So we apply that towards partner facing projects, right?

[00:12:39] So if you're migrating data

[00:12:41] To simplify it from not azure into azure

[00:12:44] Then that program or that project qualifies for the program and microsoft pays a bill

[00:12:50] I mean, it's free money

[00:12:52] It's free money and you charge your customers like most of our partners are still charging their customers and you should it's a highly valuable service

[00:12:58] Right. Um, they're just taking care of our fees

[00:13:01] Uh, which I think is fantastic and it it's it's worked well for microsoft

[00:13:04] There's obviously an ROI measurement in there, but it's it's panned out well for us for microsoft and our partners

[00:13:10] Okay, so i'm gonna pause you right here then because i'm sure we're going to talk about a bunch of other stuff

[00:13:15] Yeah, somebody's interested on this program. Where do they go to get more information?

[00:13:20] Uh, so you can help your account team

[00:13:22] You should have an infrastructure solutions consultant and they are essentially your

[00:13:27] Person for all things infrastructure

[00:13:29] Um, or you can check out that pack state professional services product. I was telling you about and we'll run you through it

[00:13:36] I mean if that's not a takeaway from this, I don't know what is but we're gonna get into a lot of other stuff

[00:13:39] Um, lisa pops in on on linkedin and says was there an exit strategy for when you had the msp?

[00:13:46] And then decided to migrate to the other side of the aisle or like what happened there?

[00:13:50] Yeah, so I kind of had this epiphany. I was uh, I was hanging out with with ken Patterson and ryan walsh

[00:13:56] Uh as one does when you're a pack state partner

[00:13:59] Uh, and we were at a bar and I was I just kind of the epiphany. I was like I was kind of done

[00:14:05] You know things like tax returns driving me crazy

[00:14:08] and uh legal and all that fun stuff

[00:14:11] So I kind of made the decision then and i'm I was fortunate at the time I started building my network

[00:14:17] In the channel. I had friends. I had local friends. So um,

[00:14:21] I I didn't do a full acquisition and that was very intentional. So I actually chopped up and sold the book of business

[00:14:27] Um

[00:14:28] To kind of partners the best fit which worked out really well. I believe there's been full retention there

[00:14:33] Which is great

[00:14:35] um, and I kept the the under like the brand and all that so if I if I ever decided I wanted to go back

[00:14:40] I could literally launch this thing company again

[00:14:43] um

[00:14:44] So it worked out and it it's it's not the ideal exit strategy

[00:14:48] Like to be totally blunt. I could have made more money had I just sold the business wholesale because I had this this healthy consulting arm and things but

[00:14:55] um

[00:14:56] You know the transition to packs eight was was simple their local

[00:15:00] Uh, they were they were one of my best strategic partners when I ran the shop and I wanted to duplicate that so

[00:15:07] It was pretty it was a pretty straightforward choice. There wasn't really another

[00:15:11] I was vetting other things but packs eight stood out

[00:15:14] So that whole process like you made the decision

[00:15:18] You pieced out your your book to you know a couple different places

[00:15:21] It sounds like and then you came online on packs eight all within what period of time

[00:15:26] Oh, man, that's 45 days

[00:15:29] Wow, that's fast

[00:15:31] Well, I didn't sell the whole company right so we didn't there wasn't that due diligence factor

[00:15:34] There wasn't that there was a lot of introduction meetings kind of explained to my clients what i'm doing

[00:15:40] Uh, and and kind of moving through that

[00:15:44] I also didn't have like a significant w2 force so there wasn't that conversation to be had

[00:15:49] Um, so mine was was low complexity compared to a lot of others

[00:15:53] Wow, that's awesome. Well, I listen there's a lot of ways to do this

[00:15:57] But that's uh, that's a cool story because it went pretty quick. Hopefully painless for you and

[00:16:01] Hopefully that was the last complex factor and you had to do that year

[00:16:05] Yeah, you know now investing options and that's its own you know complexity but

[00:16:10] I get it. I get it. There's you know, the government is a is a tricky organization for sure

[00:16:15] um

[00:16:16] Talk to us about the I mean you and matt lee work, you know do a lot of stuff online. There's a lot of content you guys are producing

[00:16:23] Um

[00:16:24] Just because I don't want to forget at the end. What are what are the things that you guys do on a regular basis that you put out for content

[00:16:32] So the number one thing is is the game so every friday

[00:16:35] Uh on youtube packs eight cloud come join us. It's at two o'clock

[00:16:39] It's also going to move to wednesday in the future because a lot of a lot of folks have told us that friday afternoon is tough

[00:16:45] Um, and I concur. I'm usually trying to start my weekend by the end of the show so

[00:16:49] um

[00:16:50] But we just we bring on typically a guest every week or sometimes just matt and I do a show

[00:16:55] And the only intent is to talk cyber or some sort of operational maturity concept around cyber

[00:17:02] So we've had alex spiegel on we've had people from syssa the fbi

[00:17:08] Brad groves has been on to talk about some of the legal complexities

[00:17:11] We have a couple exciting microsoft names on the list

[00:17:14] So I have a principal product manager coming in a few weeks. I can't give you his name yet

[00:17:18] But it's it's going to be a cool one if you're into identity you want to come to that show

[00:17:22] Um, but it's it's mostly just to shoot the shit like there's no agenda

[00:17:26] You know, there's no sponsorship spots

[00:17:29] We bring people on if we like them and they have a good message to share

[00:17:32] So that's the number one way we'd love to have more audience there get the chat a little more active

[00:17:37] Um, and if you want to be on it like hit me up on linkedin. Let me know what you want to talk about

[00:17:42] We'd love to have folks on the show

[00:17:45] Um

[00:17:45] Other than that, so we we run a lot of programs through our pack state academy

[00:17:50] A lot of that is absolutely free for any of our partners to just sign on

[00:17:54] With your partner account. So there's cis control courses. There's general information. We're working on content

[00:18:00] For learning how to use products. We're working on general cyber education content

[00:18:04] That's just going to be available Matt leads and structure led courses

[00:18:07] So you can they do cost but they're live you can work through you come out with functional policies and a really deep understanding

[00:18:14] Um, and I think one of the more exciting things coming out and you've kind of seen

[00:18:18] Uh, you know hints of this is our is our product mapping right? So there's this hugely monolithic program

[00:18:25] Uh to take all of our products and map them to cis controls

[00:18:29] Uh that are in the pack state marketplace, but we've since expanded that

[00:18:33] To be more of a community-based thing that we help facilitate

[00:18:37] Um, and it's not quite ready for release yet

[00:18:39] But I would urge you to stay tuned for that around the beyond time frame because

[00:18:44] I'm really excited to launch that program. I think it really illustrates that

[00:18:48] Like look pack state has a commercial interest in these kind of things

[00:18:51] Right like it's just as we wear I wear the logo

[00:18:54] But we've really worked to build it to be a community-based thing that everyone can benefit from

[00:19:01] Perhaps including vendors that aren't today on the marketplace

[00:19:04] And I think that's that for me speaks to the fact that we were able to do that

[00:19:08] Even though we work for pack state speaks volumes

[00:19:11] 100 degrees so

[00:19:13] I guess to to find information about that program the game on which is right now friday soon to move to wednesdays

[00:19:20] They're gonna probably hit your LinkedIn feed, but also look at packs a cloud, which is what the instagram and twitter to youtube got it perfect

[00:19:28] I'm glad I confirmed

[00:19:30] YouTube the place where all video goes. I feel like um

[00:19:35] So zooming out right now that you've been on both sides of the aisle, right? You were

[00:19:40] Dom msp consultant guy

[00:19:42] Now you're on you are in dom packs eight vendor who services msp guy

[00:19:47] More frequent more recently dom. Hey, I'm helping you with pro services that may not actually cost you a dime guy

[00:19:54] Where are you seeing

[00:19:56] The still the the largest struggle from your chair and in like the msp space, right?

[00:20:01] Like are you still seeing the same things that just repeat themselves year over year?

[00:20:05] Or are you seeing new challenges now that have been popping out since you joined packs eight?

[00:20:09] You know, I think this the cyber security conversation is the first thing that comes to mind

[00:20:13] The services thing will be there forever like it's just hard to scale around one time services

[00:20:18] Um, and that's that's why I believe in our service program and I'm happy to run it

[00:20:24] Um, but cyber security. I think is an important topic, right? Like I said

[00:20:28] Is msp's you know, we're serving roughly two thirds of the economy

[00:20:32] Um and pretty much any given country by the way like that that statistic carries in a lot of places

[00:20:38] Um and I don't think cyber security is a new challenge. I think we've been talking about it a lot louder for the past

[00:20:44] I don't know five six years

[00:20:47] But it's always been there, right? I just think over time threat actors have innovated

[00:20:52] Um in the whole excuse of like small businesses and worth it just isn't true. It's too easy to attack at scale

[00:20:58] It's too easy to extract money. Um and insurance exists. So now you can get blood from a rock, right?

[00:21:04] Um

[00:21:05] So it's for me the most pertinent conversation. I think it's the most important thing right now and I understand

[00:21:12] I understand there's sales rex hates it when I say that's the most important thing

[00:21:16] He doesn't hate it, but you know, he's like no, no sales operational maturity and I'm like, yes

[00:21:20] But all of that falls apart if we can't secure at all, right? And and it's tough

[00:21:25] But I will say, you know, we go to events exchange securities a great example

[00:21:29] I went to the first ever one of those I went to the second one and go into the third one this year

[00:21:33] And every time we go to an event like that I get we get challenged more and more which is great

[00:21:38] It shows maturity if you're asking me deeper questions that I need to struggle with that's what I want, right?

[00:21:44] So I'm seeing the growth in maturity

[00:21:46] But understanding of the fact that there's a really large chunk of our

[00:21:50] Industry that that hasn't matured to that yet

[00:21:53] And we're really trying to work to get everyone to mature their cyber postures work with their customers secure their own house

[00:22:01] And the more progress we can make on that

[00:22:03] The better shape we'll be in in general, right? But it's a long journey and I would urge everyone

[00:22:09] You know, and it's not just me. It's matt and it's you know

[00:22:13] Uh our friend roddy went to your web, but I still love them. Uh, you know, we're all out here teaching

[00:22:19] Uh

[00:22:20] Literally just in hopes that we can improve your situation like mac from black points another great example

[00:22:25] We really want this to improve so that we can be

[00:22:30] Safe and protected and see growth that we know we can sustain because it's not going to get taken from us

[00:22:36] Um, so I would urge everyone to approach cyber security with a very open mind

[00:22:41] Constantly be looking to learn new things

[00:22:43] Um get your people to learn new things, right? Send them out for for different sorts than you normally would

[00:22:49] I just got my cis sp and I found it immensely valuable to study that

[00:22:53] Uh, yeah, thank you. That was a fun test

[00:22:55] Um and and the more the more you learn and the more you apply that learning the better off you're going to be

[00:23:01] And I think we're coming to a point where customers are more self aware of this like it's in the news cycle

[00:23:07] It's a constant conversation. They're your cyber insurance. Uh carriers beating you up

[00:23:12] They're more self aware of that and I think security done correctly

[00:23:16] In positioned right is a huge competitive advantage over your, uh,

[00:23:21] Over perhaps your neighboring msp's right if you have security unlock and you can clearly articulate

[00:23:26] I have a cyber security program. I'm not just throwing tools at you

[00:23:30] Um, I think that's massive, right? And I well, I'm unfortunately

[00:23:35] A lot of people say they have a lot of stuff in place and they market things and it may not be

[00:23:38] You know, not all things, you know are equal

[00:23:41] Yeah, and um, there's one thing matley said that that stuck in my head from uh year and a half ago

[00:23:46] What you're using today may not be the same thing you'll be using a year from now

[00:23:50] Like things change, right? And like if anything

[00:23:54] Why cyber security is so difficult to keep up with is that it's

[00:23:58] Not static, right? It is constantly moving

[00:24:02] And so if you are of that mindset that well, I already have everything I need

[00:24:07] I got my tools. Like I set them up. I maybe I got some outside help to

[00:24:12] Consulting right to make sure I have everything in place, but like

[00:24:15] Time will change whether that is effective or not

[00:24:17] Yeah, and I think the the important thing I try to put in front of people is you're facing a threat actor

[00:24:24] That has virtually infinite resources. They can use to beat you

[00:24:29] Right, they're winning millions of dollars at a time and they have all the time and resources

[00:24:32] They need to come up with something new

[00:24:34] Right and us as practitioners

[00:24:37] We have a budget and we have clients who only have so much money to spend on this and we have clients who have other business

[00:24:43] Priorities because they're also running businesses that they're trying to grow and succeed

[00:24:47] And feed their family and hit payroll and all these stresses that come with the business

[00:24:51] So it's really hard to get the right amount of mind share

[00:24:55] So I would urge and look I come from a company that sells tools

[00:24:59] Right and I tell people all the time I want you to buy tools from us

[00:25:02] But I don't want you to buy tools from us if you don't understand how to use them

[00:25:06] Right, if you if you cannot build the operational maturity, which is

[00:25:10] Cyber operational maturity is entirely separate from your msp's operation. They merge in places

[00:25:15] But there are two concepts if you can't build

[00:25:18] An information security program for yourself and for your customers

[00:25:22] Then the tools don't matter right. I could buy all the tools in the world

[00:25:26] If I haven't applied them in a way that makes sense

[00:25:29] I'm still going to get beat and I'm not going to understand why

[00:25:32] So it's it's that concept of you're going to lose right and I hate to say it

[00:25:37] But you're going to lose at some point

[00:25:39] You either have or will experience an incident

[00:25:41] Right, so you need to focus time and energy on that comprehensive program, right?

[00:25:46] Do you identify do you protect but also you got to be able to detect respond and recover

[00:25:51] Right, and if you're not ready for that, that's what's going to catch you off guard and really hurt you

[00:25:56] And I would urge everyone to be to be prepared and to build a program around that

[00:26:01] And be ready to detect

[00:26:03] Detect respond and recover

[00:26:05] Right and and you do that through you know protective controls

[00:26:08] Although that's limiting blast radius through proper access control and having those conversations

[00:26:13] But you also do that through understanding how your incident response is going to work

[00:26:17] Know that you're going to experience an incident

[00:26:19] Build an incident response plan tabletop and test it and keep it up to date and to your point

[00:26:23] That's a practice right we call ourselves practitioners because we're practicing

[00:26:27] We're constantly trying to get better at this understanding. We need to innovate

[00:26:32] Um at a against an adversary that's innovating every day

[00:26:36] Wow, I mean that was well said

[00:26:38] I think if we just took that and like use that as a hey wake up call

[00:26:43] Tools a lot I'm gonna save you. I mean like

[00:26:47] There's a lot of truth to that and quite frankly

[00:26:49] That's what people like

[00:26:52] I think very few vendors that are selling at the events that we all know and loving go to

[00:26:57] Are coming at people saying hey, here's the big picture of what your total pack

[00:27:01] Know security practice should look like and here's where we sit

[00:27:05] It's it's kind of the inverse of that. It's hey just buy us. You'll be okay. We got you, you know, like

[00:27:11] Yeah, like press the button go and you're good and I don't think that

[00:27:15] That holistic approach like I think comp the atrust mark is something that's doing good things

[00:27:20] But it takes time and energy just like anything else like if you're going through any sort of compliance framework

[00:27:26] um

[00:27:28] Right, I would I would beg to

[00:27:30] You know put it put a idea out there that I would say the

[00:27:33] Most msp's out there

[00:27:36] Have just heard the message. Well, the guy next to me is using this so I'm going to use that because he said it works

[00:27:41] and you know outsource as much as I can because I don't have security experts on staff or knowledge set and

[00:27:48] you know hope for the best

[00:27:51] Try and limit ability by contract and and go from there, right

[00:27:55] And it's not their fault. It's it's really not because to your point. That's what the marketing says

[00:28:00] We we see things like cyber immune and and stops all threats in 100%

[00:28:04] That literally doesn't exist like if you need a takeaway

[00:28:08] There is no such thing as 100 protection. It can't be done, right?

[00:28:12] um

[00:28:13] However, when you look at that holistic picture and we're really working with a lot of our vendor partners to get better at this of saying

[00:28:19] Hey, you know

[00:28:21] This is a great product, right? But you got to stop telling my partners that stops all threats, right?

[00:28:25] We need to help them build a mature

[00:28:28] cyber

[00:28:29] Uh operation, right they need to do security operations and we want your tool to be a part of this

[00:28:34] And that's that's an advantage. We have at packs aid as we do cover a large portion of the stack

[00:28:38] So we we really are working to say

[00:28:41] Yes, you would sure love it if you bought products, you know again, I'm vesting shares

[00:28:45] I would sure love it if you bought products

[00:28:47] But I think if we take a step back

[00:28:50] I need you to understand the practitioner side the the human side of cyber security the analytical and strategic side to say

[00:28:58] Okay, here's my framework and we love cis

[00:29:01] Um, but here's my framework. Here's what I've got covered, right?

[00:29:04] And here's where I have gaps and then I can start to look at products from the lens of a practitioner

[00:29:09] And I can say, all right, uh, I need I need something

[00:29:13] My customer wants co-pilot. I need something to implement data management and data loss prevention

[00:29:18] Great. Now I have a very specific business problem

[00:29:21] So that when I come talk to my packs 18, I say I have this specific business problem

[00:29:26] And it empowers our our security solutions consultants who are kind of like those infrastructure guys

[00:29:32] But for security to say great we've trained them all in cis by the way

[00:29:36] To say great. Here's what we have that covers that and that's where that product mapping comes from

[00:29:40] And now we can have much more in-depth conversations with you and like yes, again, they're sales guys

[00:29:45] They want you to buy a thing

[00:29:47] But you're giving them exactly what they need to propose the right things

[00:29:51] And they're going to let you pick out of what what we say covers that

[00:29:56] Control and what's been validated through that community motion

[00:30:00] Um, and that's really how I would love every msp to approach security

[00:30:04] And if you're not ready for a whole framework and a lot of us aren't I wasn't early in my cyber journey

[00:30:09] Um, there's a concept called the cyber security bell curve and microsoft puts out a great graphic. You can just google it

[00:30:15] Um, it's five things right and i'm not going to remember off the top of my head, but you know

[00:30:19] Endpoint protection mfa is the biggest one data loss prevent or access controls data controls

[00:30:25] There's five steps you can take

[00:30:27] And if you can start there, right?

[00:30:28] And this is I've actually changed my decks to say please start with these five things and then come talk to me about cis

[00:30:35] But if you can get all your customers into that secure baseline in that bell curve

[00:30:39] Um, it you know according to microsoft stops 98 percent of attacks

[00:30:43] I'm going to go with like 80 percent of automated attacks is my guess

[00:30:47] Um, but it puts you or your customer far and ahead of many others

[00:30:51] And my point is you've got you've got to do something but you have to think strategically

[00:30:55] i'm going to say something that

[00:30:58] Maybe won't go over well because of all you know all the things you do with microsoft, but

[00:31:03] They just got hit themselves right like didn't all their executive

[00:31:06] You know like emails get compromised and like i don't know who if they've ultimately determined who it is out of the country or whatever but like

[00:31:14] There's there's there's been a

[00:31:17] consistent conversation about

[00:31:19] Hey too many eggs in the same basket like do you trust it and if they can't protect themselves

[00:31:26] Just what they're telling you work right like yeah

[00:31:30] Yeah, so

[00:31:32] We just did an episode of the game with greg kutzbach

[00:31:34] And we played this game of who done it because that news there was this random website to put out this article around the biggest azure breach

[00:31:41] Ever uh, so i want to be clear. It was not a it was not a compromise of azure

[00:31:44] We'd be having a very different conversation if it was um, but it was a microsoft corporate incident

[00:31:49] Um and look like I said there is no such thing as 100 protection sure right?

[00:31:55] What and it is concerning and and I did have conversations with microsoft about it some under nda

[00:32:00] And some where I can tell you they were like hey dom like we screwed up here

[00:32:05] Right and and that one is exciting to me right? Yes, they had an incident

[00:32:10] But how many other mega providers put that stuff out and say here's a news release. It says here's exactly what happened

[00:32:17] um, and they've been

[00:32:20] Surprisingly open and and encouragingly open to your exact criticism of yep

[00:32:26] We experienced an incident. Here's our learnings from it

[00:32:29] um

[00:32:30] So I don't know that I hope that I I mean look it sucks

[00:32:34] It sucks when you hear that the person or the group hosting your data

[00:32:38] Experienced or whatever right and go back to rack space and host exchange and those kind of incidents

[00:32:43] um

[00:32:44] The the difference is and for me the way it was handled

[00:32:48] Was done with a staggering amount of transparency

[00:32:51] Um and acknowledgement that there was something wrong here. So

[00:32:54] Yeah, it's a risk. That's a risk you take and and if you go down that practitioner route start learning that you'll learn that all we're doing

[00:33:01] And in info set is balancing risk right we're doing something with risk

[00:33:04] um and

[00:33:07] I personally have not uh, have not shifted my own stuff away from microsoft

[00:33:13] Now let's have the all eggs in one basket conversation because I was the all eggs in one basket guy

[00:33:18] um

[00:33:20] I never put all my eggs in one basket at a certain point but

[00:33:25] I think for me it depends on what can I operate with right if i'm going to buy a product

[00:33:29] I need to understand what gap i'm going to try to fill uh, which is going to be some kind of control for me right

[00:33:35] Uh, and then I need to understand what can I actually operate?

[00:33:38] I can buy it and I can turn it on in fact my services team will be able to turn it on for you here soon

[00:33:44] Can I use it? Let's let's just pick on uh, samson along right?

[00:33:48] Samson one is a fantastic tool, but it's going to throw incidents at me. Yeah, right?

[00:33:52] Uh, what do I do when I get an incident?

[00:33:54] Do I just turn it off and forget about it right like just clear it?

[00:33:57] Or do I have an incident response plan where I analyze it and understand?

[00:34:00] Or do I not have the maturity to do that and I need to look at manage detection and response

[00:34:04] So I have someone to do that for me. So if i'm shopping

[00:34:07] I'm shopping around what tool fills the need and has a good amount of efficacy right

[00:34:12] You know sort of the top right of the quadruple kind of thing

[00:34:14] But what can I actually operate with and that's going to drive my decision

[00:34:18] So that might drive some of my decisions towards microsoft

[00:34:20] It might drive my decision towards a different endpoint product

[00:34:23] But I need my team to be able to use that tool and be effective practitioners with it

[00:34:28] That's my core decision-making

[00:34:30] um

[00:34:31] And today given a lot of the advancements in the microsoft space

[00:34:35] um

[00:34:36] It might be a somewhat heavy microsoft stack, but I also know that i'm going to need mdr

[00:34:41] So I might find an mdr vendor. I also know that i'm going to need sock

[00:34:44] Um, maybe a certain endpoint works better across the types of endpoints

[00:34:48] I manage or the types of customers I manage

[00:34:50] So there's so many decision points you have to factor in

[00:34:53] Um that I wouldn't call it a legs one basket. I would call it

[00:34:57] I've built a stack that I can run with confidence

[00:34:59] Yeah, I mean

[00:35:01] There's you know, we've talked about it on this on this show a thousand times, right?

[00:35:06] It's like hey, I bought something because it was popular and everybody else bought it

[00:35:10] Or maybe I bought something and like I didn't even six months later. I didn't even turn on yet

[00:35:14] So paying for it. All right kind of thing

[00:35:17] And like

[00:35:18] Because the marketing is meant, you know, like so so easy a caveman can do it, right? Like this thing just runs

[00:35:24] It's automation. You know like turn the ignition. Let it go like

[00:35:27] There's a lot of marketing around that and and you know

[00:35:32] It's no different than the rmm back in the day, right? It's like, hey, you know, like

[00:35:35] We're gonna try and automate as much as we can for you

[00:35:37] But like it was really in the very very beginning an empty shell, right?

[00:35:40] You had to actually build stuff to make it work for you

[00:35:42] And a lot of people just didn't either have time or have competencies. So like right fast forward to 2024

[00:35:48] I feel like we're in that same zone

[00:35:51] In this topic, right? It's like hey, I know I have microsoft out there because everybody's on microsoft

[00:35:56] But i'm not a microsoft lockdown guy, right? Like I would need to go somewhere to help me

[00:36:02] Make that a little bit more secure because whatever they give me out the gate is not that right or hey, um

[00:36:10] You know, these are the people the the vendors that people are flocking to I've plugged them in

[00:36:15] Maybe i'm in a peer group. Maybe I met somebody on the show. They're using this. They said they had to

[00:36:18] You know, it's been good. So I started using it like

[00:36:21] You know a lot of that

[00:36:24] Thinking is how the industry moves, right?

[00:36:26] um

[00:36:27] so I think

[00:36:29] You know

[00:36:30] I'm you know, I know your position is hey, we're just trying to educate people so that the bar is moved up. Got it

[00:36:37] but

[00:36:38] To the same point of hey, if I go to a breakout at any conference

[00:36:42] And they give me the idea that I need to start looking into something it doesn't necessarily spell out. Well, this is

[00:36:49] What gets you to my outcome, right? It's like hey, you need to

[00:36:52] Do some homework and figure out what you need to do to start driving down this road and

[00:36:57] You know the killie shield that entire thought is time

[00:37:01] Yeah, yeah, that's a huge problem. I think you know

[00:37:05] I don't know it's still a problem for me because i'm a director at pack state and my calendar is nuts

[00:37:09] But in an ms when I was running an msp was a real problem

[00:37:12] I would say, you know one those conference conversations need to continue, right? Like the

[00:37:18] The most valuable thing I glean from a conference happens after the conference

[00:37:23] Right, we go to dinner where we have a drink and we have real conversation

[00:37:27] I learned so much about people and their business and their struggles and and you know this better than anyone

[00:37:33] The block parties are fantastic for that, right?

[00:37:35] So continue those conversations and you should come out of them like oh, yeah

[00:37:39] I do that with you know, whatever tool and it's good. It's good because this is bad because that

[00:37:46] I would say at some point you have to find the time though, right?

[00:37:48] You have to dig you have to dig one or two layers deeper

[00:37:52] From that bar conversation whether it's calling that person back and really figuring out how they use it

[00:37:57] Or working with the vendor or with us at pack say or whoever you're working with

[00:38:02] To really understand that product and understand how if it's an operation like it's going to require a time investment

[00:38:08] And there's there's really not much of a way around that like when I say I want you to get educated

[00:38:13] I know that takes time, right? And I say I need you to research your products

[00:38:17] I know that takes time

[00:38:18] However, I would look at it as if I can build a really mature

[00:38:23] Uh information security program for myself the msp and for my customers

[00:38:28] It's going to save you a lot of time when the event

[00:38:33] Comes, you know what I mean?

[00:38:35] Where you're ready to manage it. You've you've invested the time you have the right stack. You're good at it

[00:38:41] You're good at using that stack and you've done the whole incident response side

[00:38:45] The time you're going to say when you're ready when you can break out the book that you're confident in and you start following the steps and start handling the exceptions

[00:38:52] It's going to pay off and you you will have an incident, right?

[00:38:55] And I'm not I'm not trying to be the doom and gloom guy

[00:38:58] From a from a data perspective. I can tell you you will have an incident

[00:39:02] Um and everything in security operations and sort of that strategic side of information security is preparing for

[00:39:09] An event might be a small event might be the event

[00:39:13] But if you're prepared for that, I think the time investment up front

[00:39:17] Uh is going to save you a ton, right? It's the same. We had this conversation with brad

[00:39:20] Around like it's going to take time to work out the right contract for your business

[00:39:25] Right. I can't take boilerplate msa and boilerplate scope of work

[00:39:29] And start selling it services your contract needs to be aligned to how you do business

[00:39:33] Right that takes time takes money

[00:39:36] But if you do it right you're building a foundation that your business can grow on

[00:39:40] Um and man operational maturity in the cyberspace and the business space goes so far towards pushing your ebit up

[00:39:46] but also pushing

[00:39:48] Uh, your resell value up if you plan to exit, right? So you're also taking the time to build a

[00:39:54] An asset of a business if that's your intent is to exit someday

[00:39:58] Well, I would say that a lot of that's been happening and I would say what's going to happen

[00:40:04] Um, and we've had we've had people like read warrant and from iq evaluations and and other places that are you know

[00:40:10] This your your exact point has definitely changed the number

[00:40:15] That's being offered

[00:40:17] Yeah, right like hey your numbers are good. You know your your employees, you know are great

[00:40:22] Your your customers stick around you have long term agreements that people you know or have been along around for a long time

[00:40:28] So, you know, maybe just as good, right? But

[00:40:32] This is like not good over here

[00:40:35] And if we got to do this work to clean it up, then you know, we're gonna it's almost like you're buying a house, right?

[00:40:40] Hey, there's some problems. We're going to deduct this so that we can cover it after we buy the place

[00:40:45] Oh, yeah, I bought a house last year in 22. So like

[00:40:49] After that inspection, I saved a few bucks, right and it's the same concept

[00:40:53] Um, and it's also like can it be held together?

[00:40:56] Um, so much about cyber security from a defensibility perspective is about having it written down, which is great. It's gonna help you in court

[00:41:04] um, but

[00:41:05] If that program can't continue because dave or whoever left the company you've got an issue

[00:41:10] Okay, I think like if it's if it's dependent on one dude or one person

[00:41:15] Um

[00:41:16] Then it might as well not be there. So it again, it's about investing into that operational maturity and readiness

[00:41:23] Um and being super transparent about it that like we expect an incident to occur. So we're preparing for it

[00:41:28] Sure

[00:41:29] And I think that's an easier for me at least an easier conversation to have with a customer

[00:41:33] When you're having that security conversation around like look, we're building all these protective controls

[00:41:38] We have a stack. We're very confident in our stack. We understand how it works

[00:41:41] You know, maybe it's got

[00:41:43] Whatever it's got some mdr provider that does the human element

[00:41:47] You can you can have those conversations

[00:41:49] But I think there's value in and being the person that comes in and says you're going to experience an incident

[00:41:53] Right, we're gonna do everything we can to prevent it and we're gonna do everything

[00:41:57] We can to mitigate the impact of that incident, but it's gonna happen one of your employees is gonna click a thing

[00:42:02] You're gonna have a car accident. It's gonna happen

[00:42:06] Yeah, like that happens like what what is it once at one one a car accident every three minutes or something like that? Um

[00:42:13] Is there I know there's a lot of overlap in this conversation right but like

[00:42:19] And back to the all eggs in one basket piece like

[00:42:25] example, would you have duo and

[00:42:29] Microsoft, you know, uh, you know authenticator running side by side as like, uh

[00:42:35] Hey, you know, like I don't want to put put all my faith into just the microsoft route

[00:42:39] I'm gonna do a secondary option or is that too much or you know, like

[00:42:44] You know windows defender and another something or other on the on the end point sent to the one maybe all right or

[00:42:51] Yeah, like

[00:42:53] Is that crazy are we is that now doubling up? Is it too much or are you seeing stuff like that?

[00:42:59] So those are those are two different conversations because you covered endpoint and you covered identity right so let's start with identity

[00:43:05] um

[00:43:06] I am a huge fan of entra

[00:43:08] or azure ad

[00:43:10] And I I centralize on that when I build which isn't often it's when I build my own nerd lab, you know, it's all on

[00:43:15] Intra, um, but

[00:43:18] I think it's really a a business decision

[00:43:21] right

[00:43:22] duo has some fantastic elements for the way they do push and things like that

[00:43:27] That some people prefer over the way user interaction with entra happens. So there's that conversation

[00:43:33] What I personally would not do is have duo and entra both doing in FA

[00:43:39] Now you're asking your users to do two dances and they're gonna hate it and it's gonna be a thing

[00:43:43] so I think

[00:43:45] From that perspective if your identity is in microsoft, I would personally use microsoft mfa

[00:43:50] Right, if it's an octa I would use octa mfa

[00:43:53] um

[00:43:54] And duo is you know not an identity provider. So you kind of snap their mfa and wherever but um

[00:44:01] That's a really great question on the endpoint

[00:44:05] It also depends right like for me

[00:44:08] I think right now I would probably go the defender route with an mdr add-ons

[00:44:13] Like a huntress or a black pointer one of those where they're they're monitoring that and they're providing that human side for me

[00:44:19] um

[00:44:20] If I can be operationally mature with it if I can manage it centrally if I understand how the alerts happen

[00:44:26] If I can't do that then it's not the product for me, right?

[00:44:28] And it comes back to that operational vetting then it might be sensible one because it has a

[00:44:33] integration into my PSA or the the mdr is going to work better for me because of the way they operate

[00:44:38] So you really have to vet these things out

[00:44:41] um

[00:44:43] So I yeah, I don't know it depends. There's no concrete answer to that. You really have to evaluate

[00:44:49] For your team and you

[00:44:50] How am I going to do the best operational job the best human work?

[00:44:55] Towards my end objective of preventing an incident and being able to respond to an incident

[00:45:00] I was talking to somebody

[00:45:03] Maybe three or four months ago and the topic was

[00:45:07] You know like business premium and above

[00:45:09] Have all of these additional Microsoft security things in there that nobody's using

[00:45:16] Right like is it because it's hard to use and it's not easy to implement or is it because

[00:45:24] You know or and or there's an educational gap. They don't realize

[00:45:28] That part of the package, you know of premium or e1 e3 whatever has these additional features in there

[00:45:36] You know like on one side of the aisle you have somebody saying you really could consolidate everything like pretty much

[00:45:43] A majority of revenders into a higher level of Microsoft again with the asterisks of

[00:45:49] Of you know all your eggs in one basket in there and part of the conversation

[00:45:52] The other part is hey, are you on the are you over paying for a higher tier plan of Microsoft that you're

[00:45:58] You're just not using right like how do you know? How do you?

[00:46:03] Attack those those angles there

[00:46:05] Man, that's a good one. So let's talk about business premium. It's it's saying is 22 bucks MSRP something like that

[00:46:13] The core stack is is microsoft 365. So I don't know that is a share point out looking all that junk

[00:46:18] teams

[00:46:19] Let's talk about that security layer. So in a nutshell you're getting intra id premium

[00:46:25] You're getting

[00:46:27] Purview labeling you're getting purview a light ish version of deep purview dlp. I wish there was more there

[00:46:33] And you're getting defender for office and defender for business, which is their endpoint product kind of

[00:46:37] Watered down for business. So all of that's great. That's a great stack

[00:46:40] And if you did the math, you're probably over $22 if you bought like

[00:46:45] I don't know a business standard and then some other idp and some other endpoints

[00:46:49] So I think financially

[00:46:51] For me, I don't know that I'd have trouble now

[00:46:53] I haven't priced a stack in a while by the way, so that's my caveat

[00:46:56] But I don't know that I would have trouble making financial

[00:46:59] sense of the microsoft decision

[00:47:01] And again, i'm a big intro guy. So I would take full advantage venture p1

[00:47:05] You should go learn conditional access. You should understand how it applies to your framework controls

[00:47:10] It is not defensible in my opinion to just use the per user like tick on mfa

[00:47:15] I think you need to use conditional access or secure security defaults

[00:47:20] Um, but if we if we blow it up a little bit, I'm going to go all the way back to operations again

[00:47:25] If I can operate on that stack

[00:47:27] Then I might pick it right now. I need to understand that customer's environment, right? Are they mostly mac or they mostly pc

[00:47:35] Do I need to look at uh device management for android and ios right you get in tune bundled into that

[00:47:42] um

[00:47:43] But if you really want the simple answer and this is kind of the

[00:47:47] When i'm having those conversations at the bar and they say shut up and answer me

[00:47:51] It's look if I only use entra and in tune and I manage my users devices and I roll out application protection

[00:47:59] And then I do conditional access for you know, mfa maybe geolocation and some device compliance stuff

[00:48:06] That's worth it right if you just price out pretty much any mdm

[00:48:10] Uh and any idp you're probably going to be a and like business standard

[00:48:15] You're probably going to be above 22 bucks. So if you completely ignore the endpoint stuff, if you completely ignore defender for office

[00:48:21] Which I understand defender for office has had his trouble with a lot of folks

[00:48:25] Um, I think you're probably financially whole in today's pricing market

[00:48:30] um or near it

[00:48:32] Where I would I would push the business premium conversation with just those two products

[00:48:37] Okay, got it

[00:48:40] Good answer. Um

[00:48:44] I know probably not your department, but I think they just decided teams is being split away from microsoft

[00:48:49] At least on new subscriptions. I think I read that was this past week or something

[00:48:53] um

[00:48:54] I'm sure that'll be interesting conversation moving forward because now it bears the cost right

[00:48:59] So the net result to the end customer is

[00:49:01] It's effectively a price increase if you can you know like

[00:49:05] I didn't get into the weeds on well if you already have it how long does it stay included and but I definitely for net new subscriptions

[00:49:12] It's a separate thing right so could be interesting moving forward. Um as people have really

[00:49:18] You know, I think you know adopted teams is at least a collaboration tool. It's definitely a door in 2020 21 22

[00:49:25] um

[00:49:27] That being said

[00:49:28] You know now we're on I think year two maybe two and a half of nce right like

[00:49:35] In your opinion from where you sit has all that kind of washed out now like no, you know, is it or is it still

[00:49:43] But I mean look it's still a talking point

[00:49:45] right and

[00:49:47] There probably could have been some better execution from our our friends at microsoft on how they do that like there's there's no debate

[00:49:54] um

[00:49:56] I don't know that it's washed out like it's still a conversation I have from time to time

[00:50:01] um, I think at this point I would

[00:50:05] For my if I was still doing my own practice

[00:50:07] It would would want to be something that I would want to wash out like what okay

[00:50:10] It's here. What am I doing with nce?

[00:50:13] Let's write this into the into the procedures and this is now how we operate like I think we need to do that

[00:50:19] Like it's not going away, right?

[00:50:21] um

[00:50:22] so

[00:50:24] Is unpopular is that opinion might be?

[00:50:27] I think we just need to live with it. Um

[00:50:29] Now the whole team's thing, you know, I don't know if you remember like the netscape case back in the day

[00:50:35] I do I do yeah

[00:50:38] It's it was literally going in that direction with teams in europe being bundled in

[00:50:43] It's called a competitive advantage

[00:50:46] Uh by sales force and slack

[00:50:48] um

[00:50:49] And now we're

[00:50:52] We're appeasing the uh the regulators. I don't know if I agree. I think teams and slack could easily be two different tools

[00:50:58] um, but I digress the

[00:51:02] The challenge I think is

[00:51:05] How do you deal with that?

[00:51:06] Right like I live in teams. I I I send far more teams and emails

[00:51:11] Most of my meetings are in teams. It's my office phone. Like I don't know what I would do if I didn't have teams

[00:51:17] um

[00:51:18] In fact that that time it was out for a day

[00:51:20] My whole department was like

[00:51:22] freaking out because we were standing up slack and trying to get work done and

[00:51:26] um standing up slack within corporate policy by the way, um

[00:51:30] trying to try to get work done and

[00:51:32] That was a real moment of like, okay. We need a redundancy policy here, but

[00:51:37] I think if you're ingrained in teams and your customers ingrained in teams at least at the level that like I function out of it

[00:51:43] You're not moving right and I think microsoft knows that

[00:51:47] Um, I haven't looked at the numbers so I don't know what they are

[00:51:50] um

[00:51:51] For me, I if we're talking about a dollar

[00:51:54] I would probably just work with the customer on it. It's something like five dollars

[00:52:00] Five dollars net more than they're spending today. Yeah per user

[00:52:04] That might be a tough for conversation. Oh, so now we have to go dig into this with the with chris and farambacca in the team but

[00:52:10] the

[00:52:11] The the core or the root of the challenge kind of annoyed me, right?

[00:52:16] I I didn't see it as an anti-competitive move to bundle it in

[00:52:20] um

[00:52:21] But it's where we're at so it's it's another thing we're going to have to figure out

[00:52:24] And I think nce

[00:52:27] Look, it's it's still a conversation point

[00:52:29] And there's you know with the way nce was rolled out in the timing

[00:52:34] We at packs eight is an aggregator of microsoft subscriptions

[00:52:37] We have this period of time where a whole lot of nce subscriptions are renewing, right? It's just so we see a huge

[00:52:43] Swell in activity in our platform our support teams get busier and we prepare for that every year and we're ready for it

[00:52:50] But I think as an msp operating with it

[00:52:53] For me, I I personally would have accepted it's not going anywhere. How do I work with this?

[00:52:59] Honestly, I probably would have kept doing the monthly and passed on the 20 percent

[00:53:03] um

[00:53:04] but

[00:53:05] You got to find a way to make it work, right? It sucks. I'm not a fan of it, but it's here. We got to work with it

[00:53:11] um

[00:53:13] I don't know we'll see where the team's thing goes

[00:53:15] Yeah, well, you know there's pesky regulators. They always throw a wrench into something, right?

[00:53:21] Uh, that was especially in europe. Oh it always comes from there for some reason

[00:53:25] Uh, you get usbc on the iphone so like that is a win

[00:53:30] Okay

[00:53:31] Fair and then like I think some at one point. I don't know if it was ever resolved but

[00:53:36] Wasn't there a challenge against something in the iWatch and then like they stopped

[00:53:40] in

[00:53:42] It's like the ekg sensor or something. Yeah. Yeah, so it's crazy

[00:53:47] technology, right? It's like you like

[00:53:49] philic technology like kind of runs over here in a separate lane and then like at some point like

[00:53:55] They comes behind right? No way, you know, and it's like oh

[00:53:59] um

[00:54:01] Movie recommendation if anybody didn't watch it went out to australia a couple weeks ago. Um

[00:54:08] And I watched the blackberry movie on on the plane

[00:54:11] Oh really so good. Okay, so good. So if you haven't watched it

[00:54:16] It's like you can rent it for like 3.99 whatever go watch it

[00:54:21] Okay, mind like it's actually it's actually listed as a comedy, but it's like effectively

[00:54:27] A documentary of what happened

[00:54:29] Huh? Yeah. Yeah, go check it out and I like really blow your mind at that, you know, you know, no surprise here

[00:54:36] They're selling zero blackberries today. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not shocked by that one. Yeah, but they definitely were just

[00:54:43] Ahead of their time and got got wiped out. So

[00:54:48] I mean, we could do another one about windows phone. We wanted to hold another I feel like they gave up on windows phone too early

[00:54:56] Uh, yeah

[00:54:57] Well, I think they started at too late

[00:55:00] Right iOS and google had like built the app store and

[00:55:04] Yeah, or microsoft had to spend a ton more money to get like and even which is uh

[00:55:08] Which is ironic because that's part of I don't and again, it's documented story

[00:55:12] You're like that's part of blackberries downfall that they didn't

[00:55:16] adopt the third party developer kind of marketplace model, right? So

[00:55:22] Surprise my blackberry back in the day though, man. That was one of my favorite they worked, right? Like they were really like rock solid

[00:55:31] And you'll and you'll see at the end of the uh of the movie like how that whole

[00:55:35] You know like blackberry was really smart about how they were able to like

[00:55:39] Slim down the data utilization across the network, right? I think that was like the whole magic behind it

[00:55:45] Uh, and then when the iPhone came out it was like

[00:55:48] Beasel

[00:55:49] You know, it's like poor as much data is like you can put into your car, right? Just burn it

[00:55:56] So it was uh, it was an interesting story, but definitely go watch that. I'll uh, I'll come back and remind you guys about that

[00:56:01] Dom

[00:56:02] We're at the hour we could probably go for another hour to like not even blink like there's just so much good

[00:56:07] Talk about um, we'll definitely get you back on. I know, you know, we're definitely gonna see it beyond for sure

[00:56:13] I'll be there mark that down. Um

[00:56:18] Check out packs eight cloud on youtube for the for the show, right the friday the game right with you and matley

[00:56:26] and then uh

[00:56:28] Dom Kirby on linkedin k k i r b y if you didn't know how to spell his last name. There you go

[00:56:33] People are listening

[00:56:35] Uh, so hit them up on linkedin or shers on everywhere if you if you have any questions by the way guys

[00:56:41] Still can't i'm gonna highlight it again free free free microsoft project money

[00:56:47] If you're not taking advantage of it

[00:56:50] You literally throw my uh, you just it's almost like a it's almost like they were giving free tax money away and you didn't

[00:56:55] You know, you didn't take it so like definitely look into that

[00:56:59] Um

[00:57:00] And we'll have dom back on for sure for sure. Oh, yeah, i'm looking at 100 percent. So this session was recorded

[00:57:06] Uh, we will post it on mspinitiative.com

[00:57:08] We'll post it on the pot catchers and youtube and all that jazz

[00:57:11] But there is a sessions tab on the website so you can go back and rewind this and figure out

[00:57:15] All the cool stuff we talked about today

[00:57:17] um, if you know, we will I am I don't know the exact date but

[00:57:21] uh, rob re would probably pop on and talk about packs eight beyond

[00:57:24] If you if you aren't doing anything the week of the I think it's nine 10 11 or the dates of the event. Yeah, tune

[00:57:31] Go check it out now and like circle it and like make a decision if you're going to go because I think like there's like 25

[00:57:37] percent tickets left from what somebody told me earlier

[00:57:39] um

[00:57:41] Strong and the early bird pricing expires at the end of this month

[00:57:44] bingo strongly recommend that you take a hard look at that one

[00:57:48] Um, and it's right at the beginning of the summer vacation season

[00:57:51] So like you haven't gone anywhere yet, right? Maybe Denver could be here and it's at the gay lords

[00:57:56] So it's got like lazy rivers and pools. I mean bring bring bring the family, you know

[00:58:01] Let him let him play during the day

[00:58:03] I was just there yesterday and they were they renovated like half the place so it's um

[00:58:08] It's pretty interesting. Um, anyway, thank you for coming on guys. Thanks for watching again

[00:58:13] We do these like twice a week so keep keep watching keep following

[00:58:16] Uh, and we hope to you out on the road somewhere because you know

[00:58:20] We're kind of in the thick of things now. So definitely sign up for those block parties ahead of time

[00:58:24] Register ahead of time you can always cancel it's a free ticket if you're an msp

[00:58:28] So nothing to lose and for the people that are coming out to Nashville next week for msp community minds

[00:58:32] Looking forward to seeing you guys in person got a lot of smart people in the room

[00:58:36] Uh, so looking uh looking to kind of bump that

[00:58:38] Bump that bar up dom trying to help people learn

[00:58:41] All right guys. Have a good one. Thanks. See ya