John Davenjay of Bowman Williams

[00:00:01] Hello ladies and gentlemen, welcome to an August 8th edition of the MSP Initiative MSP talk We are right at the tail end summertime Which means we're right at the be right about to get into what we call the gauntlet here in the IT channel where every big conference

[00:00:19] Practically happen in like a 90-day span so buckle up Let's see where we get to some housekeeping that we're gonna get out of the way and then we'll get into the good stuff MSP initiative Tom here you'll find a copy of this session once we're done

[00:00:32] We will post it under sessions and also to our YouTube page and our podcatchers So you have an audio video format like download subscribe chair forward, you know what to do here

[00:00:42] But this is where it will end up MSP community minds. We are coming up on our Denver MSP live event in Denver again September 25th and 26th We did one in Nashville earlier this year now we're circling back around to handle the other side of the country

[00:00:59] You'll see our two-day agenda posted all of our MSP panelists and our expert workshop presenters who will give you two hour Lessons or workshops on a topic that doesn't have a credit card So I bet the end of that so if you're interested in an absolutely jam packed

[00:01:15] Straight up educational event that costs you nothing to register if you're an MSP Other than you know, you actually have to get there which will take you a little bit effort and maybe it's some money

[00:01:26] Then you should check out MSP community minds again. You'll find that on mspinitiative.com under MSP community minds And then we have our five not three not four but five remaining block parties for the rest of the year

[00:01:39] And remember that gauntlet that I mentioned here's kind of sort of what it looks like We have it nation Australia coming up literally I think next week or in like less than two weeks

[00:01:49] So yep, august 21st will be the night that we are doing the msp community black party Along with the it nation event in sydney You literally walk down the street. Don't even have to get an uber or get on of us

[00:02:01] So if you're going to that event or happen to just be in the greater Sydney area and you're an msp come and register for this absolutely free event With networking entertainment and of course a little bit of beverage of your choosing

[00:02:14] And then we move on to packs apion in berlin This will be in october 14th actually We'll be announcing the venue here, but we'll be doing this You know around the event there in berlin

[00:02:29] Hopefully it won't be super rainy because that's what I hear happens in that time of year But don't worry the venue that we'll be announcing is all indoors. So all good there Then we go to miami for the datocon Miami event at the fountain blue on south beach

[00:02:44] We will be doing our event on october 29th And it looks like we'll be on property again. Don't have to go anywhere other than you know a couple couple elevators or escalators whatever this you know kind of Path through the hotel is but that'll be in miami

[00:03:00] And then second to last we come back to it nation in orlando and here we will be announcing our bands shortly Which you know, we had all american rejects two years ago last year Better than as their sugar a tonic as a combo and this year

[00:03:15] Stay tuned, but that'll be in november at it nation again This is the big one that kind of closes out the year almost This will be november 6 In orlando an international drive

[00:03:28] And so go ahead and register for that one. And then we actually close out the year back in sydney For i datocon Sydney right so that'll close out on november 12th, which is the week after it nation in orlando and that'll be

[00:03:46] Basically same area as the other event just a little bit further down the calendar So there's all of that. There's a five left again totally free for the community register ahead of time So you don't have to do it standing there

[00:03:58] Of course we have our community offers and our industry calendar which take you up until the end of the year And that is all of the housekeeping on msp initiative dot com I know it's a mouthful, but it's literally all there for you. So go check it out

[00:04:14] All right now that that's out of the way New guests on the show first time john from bowman williams. How you doing today john? I'm great george. How are you?

[00:04:24] A little wet today looks like for you too same boat very wet little little monsoonie for some reason but yeah So, uh, of course anytime we bring somebody net new on to the show We let's talk a little bit about your background and

[00:04:40] How you know how you get to today and maybe how you got into you know the the sandbox that we like to call it MSP land and then uh, then we'll go into the good stuff. So well go ahead kick it off

[00:04:52] Sure. Thank you again for having me. Um My story. All right bowman williams, uh I've been staffing the msp industry for 15 years now And we have just over 900 msp clients that we staff around the country so um, how I started the company was

[00:05:10] Uh, I got hired by an msp right out of college. In fact, that was their third employee And uh started working for them in a basement We were selling a three com telephony boxes

[00:05:20] And it was going like the b&i networking events and cold calling and we grew that company to like 10 employees And uh, we were based out of fregic marilin So about like 30 miles outside of washington dc

[00:05:32] and uh by far the greatest bottleneck to our company was trying to find talent And so after I left computer frontiers I happened to land at a very large staffing firm, uh, robert haff Did well there and then so I ended up leaving

[00:05:49] Uh, I guess 15 years ago marrying those two those two skill sets and experiences together to start bowman williams and and the staff msp's And uh, I always tell people that like work here this quick story, but

[00:06:03] When I started the company, I actually didn't recognize I should be staffing msp I was just doing like general staffing anything I can get my hands on My business was about to go uh go under, you know

[00:06:13] After like one year being in there because I wasn't I didn't have a niche go niche or go home and happened to cold call, uh, steven fradkin the ceo of entiva And he's like I'll cut you off right there. Just come in and talk to me

[00:06:24] I go into steven's office and i'm like, you know, I i'm an it staffing company We staff all these different positions. He goes here's what you're gonna do You're gonna find me a strong it generalist They should be an experienced field tech supporting multiple smb's

[00:06:39] Know how to navigate and close tickets an sla driven environment Uh, and i'm not going to pay you this i'm going to pay a flat k Flat rate and he goes i'll hire five these people a year from you

[00:06:50] So essentially he like took me wrestled me the ground. Uh, I actually asked pretty quick But uh, he basically like made this relationship with me where it's the most ideal relationship with the staffing firm

[00:07:01] But I now had a contract I could take to any msp that would likely see see the same value So I went back to my desk. I called marissa withers the time with a data prize

[00:07:10] Uh, and it was the first time I ever got a call back in like a year And I uh, she's like, you know what scott gordon data prize hasn't worked with the staffing firm in 14 years

[00:07:18] But he's curious to know what you have to say and we've been growing ever since That's that's uh, that's how we got here. Sorry. I like that. I like that. You know, it's funny right before I got on here I saw

[00:07:32] You know posts that like linkedin is full of so many lies and I was like, huh They're like, you know where he was telling the post is about a story where somebody like, you know, was bragging about

[00:07:43] Getting an interview at this company and created a fake profile as an hr person at this company so that he could Like create a post and then reshare and I'm like Wow horrible I was like a lot of work

[00:07:56] I was like, yeah, I was like, wasn't this guy must have really not had a lot of You know things to do and had a lot of time on his hands to create this whole You know fake person on linkedin But I was like, you know

[00:08:07] That's uh, maybe in it hopefully an extreme case, but like people kind of fudge A lot of things in this whole story, right? Like

[00:08:16] Where was I when was I was there a gap or did I look like I was working the whole time and and you know that that's before we get into What do you actually know and can you do what you say you can do right? Um

[00:08:31] There's a hell and I assume, you know, this is just how the industry works because you live in it but um

[00:08:39] Fake it till you make it or you know, you know, basically just over promising on the delivering which nobody likes in the end because usually doesn't work out um You take that whole theme right which i'm sure you can expand on and then we take current events, right?

[00:08:57] Can't help but keep bringing it up because like today I just I just saw that there is a class action lawsuit filed against delta for the crouch truck incident Oh, wow So now

[00:09:10] So so now delta's taking a hit right and so now of course delta has already said publicly We're gonna have to go after crouch strike. We're still you know following the news Uh, but at the end of the day, it's like let's marry these two things together

[00:09:21] Somebody made a mistake in that company, right? Somebody in some team wrote a line of code Thrust. Oh probably didn't check with anyone. Nobody validated it and it was To my understanding or at least as being advertised the largest it outage You know that we've experienced in history

[00:09:41] So you put all that together this could start with somebody who Probably got hired saying that they are the best thing since sliced bread and then when it was all said and done

[00:09:55] Biggest it outage on the globe. Yeah, is that all match up? Is that is that line? I think it does you tell me Yeah, I mean it's really

[00:10:04] Difficult, I mean you got to figure out here getting in a bed with you know before you make a hire and it takes You know, it's equally important to both sides And like I live in in this space and I've created a business model around

[00:10:17] Vending talent and you know, we have what we call like the msp predictive index And it's a ranking scale of like, you know, their communication style client facing there We do a technical msp

[00:10:29] Specific technical assessment that we've gathered and pieced together from other msp's that we get and Like they're all playing we go through all these steps And then we document really big on like reasons for leaving like why you want the market?

[00:10:41] Let's say they go and say uh because lack of curriculum and we say, all right Well, what does that mean? Oh, I'm got a promotion in a year. Well, what was your last review like?

[00:10:47] How did that go? Oh, you didn't you didn't get a good review and your peers got advanced so it sounds like there's opportunity there so like It is I think interviewing is uh is very much an art form and it's it should be approached scientifically

[00:11:01] And repeated over and over again. I'm really big on that and like to talk and consult my clients on it But I mean you got to kiss a lot of frogs. You got to wrestle these people to the ground

[00:11:11] And you know, it's it's uh, you can definitely have a crowd strike type of situation if you get it wrong I mean it could be very costly. I mean listen How do you tell if somebody is just like being honest with you, right?

[00:11:23] I mean a lot of people can say whatever they want. They can promise you whatever they want They can you know make up a story like if their references could just be people that you know

[00:11:33] I mean helly people could just be hiring people to answer the phone and saying oh, yeah, great work with them So and so all good, but and then like it's not even real, right like I mean if somebody really wanted to they could go to a length that

[00:11:48] You know basically creates a fake person right like Create a backstory get some people with service references create a profile make it sound like they did something I mean, I guess the only thing they couldn't fake is like the employment verification check, but

[00:12:04] You know remember the scene from Seinfeld with George Costanza and van de Lea Industries Yeah He gave him Jerry's like apartment number and said Van de Lea, right? Like this is what we're talking about, right? So like how do you like get to real?

[00:12:22] Yeah, how do you get to real? I mean unfortunately there's I mean getting a look under the hood is it is difficult. So we do a video interview We spend 30 minutes talking with the person We have a series of questions that we go through

[00:12:35] We have a series of like sub questions and trying to get to the point And you can I mean cutting right to it honestly, it's usually a matter of like how much Substance like are they substantive when they're describing what they're what they've done?

[00:12:46] Is their depth to it can they elaborate on it? And then we'll ask specific questions. And so yeah, I think it's like you got to be curious You have to be an investigator. You have to sniff out things that don't sound true

[00:12:58] And hopefully you're all done you get this composite where things seem to add up appropriately and you get the reference in And we do a two prong interview approach and so we have two individuals that will like

[00:13:10] Chime in and weigh in on our MSP predictive index. So you get two different perspectives and sometimes they can be different I always recommend doing like group interviews. I think those are really important to trade notes

[00:13:22] But without a doubt, I think it's one of the reasons we probably exist I think, you know, I was just talking to an MSP owner there, you know managing partner They're just over 100 employees and

[00:13:31] I was working with them on like four four positions and the one else helping him fill at the time He said he had scheduled six interviews the month prior and only one of those six people showed up for the interview

[00:13:43] I mean, it's just like indicative of what you're dealing with dealing with people. It's like, you know, hurting hamsters. It's difficult That's difficult So and then like the other problem because I you know, I remember you know, not not horribly long ago, but not yesterday

[00:13:58] You know, like there's a lot of companies that have popped up and they're like, hey Can't find the people no problem outsource level one to us, right?

[00:14:08] Shifting the water elsewhere because we are staffed up and you aren't and you know, how many people do you have to go through before You find the right one and let's face it a lot of MSPs are not the size of the companies that you just mentioned earlier

[00:14:21] They're smaller shops, right? Oh, yeah And like you came in and like They can't afford to hire two three people at a time and see if somebody shakes out, right? Like they can afford person at a time

[00:14:33] But then when you stack it linearly, what if it takes two years of people before they find one person that sticks? That's right. Yes, but I'd say our average sweet spot client is probably about 15 Employees that you know, we do the math is like this right around

[00:14:50] there so Making a misstep and a miscalculation and putting the wrong person in the seat, you know It's it's it's bad. Especially like yours. You know, you're just getting started. I helped a two person MSP in Chicago recently

[00:15:04] Get you know make their make their first official hire and he recognized that this is an important piece and you know A domino where like this one has to be the right hire and has to fit and we talked about interviewing processes and questions and

[00:15:16] Standing the offer and getting all that onboarding right so that it ended up working out So I think it's absolutely crucial that people have like the right interview process and they stick to it I mean, it's absolutely insane what you hear we're going on out there about

[00:15:31] Like them putting someone in the seat that can cause just fires. It's bad. It can be very costly. Well, let me throw a curveball at you because you know Two sessions ago. We had Two sessions ago we had a guy that's

[00:15:47] Largely been in the compliance field and he was saying hey What's you know, like imagine the bad actor right the guys that apparently we can never get to right the rushas and the

[00:15:58] China's and the North Korea's and all these bad hacker groups that we always hear about like, you know, whatever Like they will literally send someone to get hired

[00:16:07] By a company and now they're on the inside, right? I don't know if you you know watch a lot of tv or anything You know, but like imagine the story where the gang

[00:16:17] You know, I'm watching mayor of kingstown with jeremy renner on paramount plus if anybody wants a good show to watch but uh, so the you know the drug dealers the gangs on the outside Send somebody to get hired as a guard at the prison

[00:16:30] And so now they got their guy on the inside right that's like, you know got the keys, right? So like my point is You know, maybe that's like 18 degrees deep here, but like could you imagine

[00:16:43] Could you imagine that like hey, you know going back to a crowd strike style event or an Each style event. It's like hey the bad guy was actually on the inside of the company. He didn't have to hack in

[00:16:55] Yeah, I mean a crazy situation. I don't think uh, you've seen anyone trying to uh infiltrate And then that's me but maybe it happened with uh with crowd strike, you know, but yeah, I know I get you I'm with you. It's uh

[00:17:09] You got to get it right. No you gotta get it right Yeah, let me let me throw a more practical one at you then Okay, I'm based out of philly here. Don't hold it against me. I know you're probably baltimore fit

[00:17:21] Actually, there's a preseason game eagles baltimore tomorrow or tonight or no tomorrow friday um But in philly right a lot of the people I went I you know, I went to a college

[00:17:33] I had a co-op program was part of the curriculum like you there you have to do an exterior job multiple times before you can graduate It's part of the curriculum. No, you know, not everybody has that but my my school did and um

[00:17:46] By the time you even get to graduation the big companies like I don't know SAP is a big company, but I mean on msp focused company, but a big technology company. They're based out of philly, right

[00:17:56] Like they hire a bunch of people. So by the time an msp gets to what's left You know, you're you know, you're the people that didn't get hired, right? So like how do you find competent talent when you're fighting

[00:18:08] The mega corporation that has way more resources and for you know, for some reason can pay more as a result It's a great question. It's a very good question I think a lot of msp's find themselves in that exact situation. It can also hurt retention

[00:18:24] um, and so you know, they can get drawn out by by like much larger salaries but uh It happens all the time. I think that msp's I'm always, you know msp's typically

[00:18:38] There's inherently a fair amount of turnover in the industry if someone comes into msp and they haven't sharpened their teeth You know, they only juggle multiple external clients and like the ticket load and the pace and the after hours work and

[00:18:49] Having to quickly, you know hop in and look at the documentation to solve a problem Someone that comes from like a more siloed larger environment where the pace is slower You get to be like more intimate with that one environment That experience doesn't

[00:19:03] Always translate doesn't always translate. So our whole shtick is you know, hiring tangible proven msp experience So you can like mitigate and kind of check that box knowing that person's not going to flake out because they can't keep up With the pace but the competing salaries um

[00:19:20] If they're coming from another msp the average salary increase in the msp industry that we've seen Is like typically around only around $5,000 So if they change for one like that's from like level one help desk up to like, you know

[00:19:33] The senior project engineer the average are more outs. It's like right around there. It's not that much Um, but yeah, I think people get msp's, you know get blindsided a fair amount where they have a level one Doing really good. They're getting incremental changes

[00:19:46] They've they picked up the skill set and other companies might see value in it And they'll end up leaving for 10 15k more and the msp doesn't have a you know

[00:19:54] Dog in the fight to throw money at the problem and retain that person is just too far outside of reach But yeah, that is a uh a problem Okay How do I was going to say for $5,000 when you do the math $5,000 divided by you know, 50 $400 Okay, um

[00:20:16] How do you handle the I'm not interested in working outside of a nine to five or eight to six right like the people who are just like Don't call me

[00:20:26] Don't email me. Don't look at me. I don't want to hear you and you don't want to hear me and I'll see you on monday It's a for not the right resource for it and you probably shouldn't work in the msp industry Right

[00:20:38] Like this is a common topic that comes all the time Yeah, how do your clients Package that from uh, how do they you know, how do they how how do you see that that being compensated in this like offer conversation? Honestly, I think it's kind of a given

[00:20:56] the only time it really becomes a topic of conversation or point of contention if there's an excessive amount Or it's a selling point to elicit a response to sell to sell that company's opportunities

[00:21:08] Like you know, here's their comp. Here's the day-to-day once you can do it. Oh by the way There's not that much after hours work or some situations. There might there might be none And then so every candidate that we represent we bring in about 175 new candidates

[00:21:23] Every month that we're interviewing right and so all this gets that we're interviewing have msp 10 year in experience usually a couple years and then so they know what they're getting into

[00:21:35] And you know, so then we're already selling them into an opportunity where like they're gonna get a career advancement more money Touch more technology and usually the after hours work is kind of a given for the most part Okay, um

[00:21:49] Unless you're super senior they don't like that. Well, that's true. Well because I think they've already done their time, right? That's you know, and that's not totally unfair to be honest, but a small company right you got to ask that question um so How about the

[00:22:09] It didn't work out like from you know, I don't know if you how deep we want to get into the structure of how you do things but All right, like I bought I get somebody

[00:22:19] We'll go through the process the interviews background checks the msp score thing that you guys go through, right? You the whole thing Put them in and like you're like I don't think this is the right fit now. What how does that work? so that's the situation where

[00:22:37] I mean you're always, you know, you want the win-win-win so we get we get Around 78% VP business year over year over year So and again the average client that we have is usually around 15 employees ish And so we usually pick up the exact 1.9 hires per client

[00:22:56] I was all of our clients 1.9 So we're always going to make sure like that and this relationship with our clients only works If that person works out and we know that so it's kind of a given in the staffing industry

[00:23:08] I believe because we just do permanent placement. So we don't do contracted them So if they hire someone from bowman liens and that person For whatever reason Doesn't work out by the 90th day like that person is no longer there. We're gonna replace that person for free

[00:23:24] So that's how we treat it. We call it our guarantee period I feel like 90 days is kind of a point where it's like ownership exchange Exchanges hands where it's like, you know, we've had a hand in the introduction. You've done your process in ours and

[00:23:37] You know, so that's that's where we personally draw the line You know if a client gives us heads up like a couple weeks into it and they notice these red flags Like we'll almost always gladly extend it A couple months six months if they need to do it

[00:23:50] But that's how we personally handle it and honestly I completely understand the situation if you paid a premium you paid a placement fee and that person didn't work out like That's not good. Uh, like you should let us know about that. But um

[00:24:04] Yeah, we definitely always want to avoid that one. No, I get that but like You do a lot. It sounds like you do a lot of placements, you know, like 175 a month you said or you know

[00:24:14] I think that was the number of candidates are right that number of candidates we interview Out of all the placements you do in a year Do you have a percentage on how many get kicked back?

[00:24:24] I think it's around four or five percent. It was a little bit higher last year um And I give it because we've we've grown uh, but also like the industry is this a lot of companies are kind of

[00:24:34] You know a fair amount are going in the opposite direction of up and so that could have something to play into it But yeah, it's typically four or five percent of the candidates that we place I would say, yeah How about the big one right?

[00:24:49] I know maybe this doesn't affect MSP land as much as other industries, but the whole Well, we were working remote for a while and now we're back to an office or Sometimes hybrid like how does that whole conversation happening right now?

[00:25:05] I feel like that's really terraformed the landscape for the MSP industry probably a lot of industries, right? um I mean, yeah people got comfortable working from home They slowly started going back in the office and what you're fighting right now is a lot of candidates

[00:25:21] Even the more junior candidates. I guess maybe they feel a little bit entitled to it I'm not sure but people change jobs all the time for work life balance and To be able to work from home. They'll take less or salaries

[00:25:34] So like on our interview process we say like, you know, what are you targeting? And then we have like a little note box and a lot of people will say they're targeting to say 80,000 Right and they're making 80,000 in their current MSP. I want 8,000 plus

[00:25:46] But in the interview notes, we'll gather like they'll consider opportunities that are down to 70k If the position is full remote because they have a family and it's it's super important to them

[00:25:55] And so if a company's uh, you know a hybrid work environment or you know, the primary work at home going on client sites periodically That work from home portion even if it's just like two days a week

[00:26:07] That will usually suffice to to check a box for people like yeah, I'm gonna be interested if it's five days in office Like I get it a large portion of the industry is in that in that that that place of having everyone in the office

[00:26:19] But yeah, it's it's something a lot of candidates are Inherently looking for it makes a lot of sense. But yeah, that's really changed things man It's really changed things in the industry. Yeah, I mean but from the from the management side

[00:26:32] Sometimes that's problematic right like it's sure I'm sure you've heard because this is your business Like takes longer for somebody to get integrated remote takes longer for the train

[00:26:41] Like it just like what probably gets done 10x faster when I'm standing in front of you just kind of drags out right and then like Slows the whole thing down a little bit

[00:26:52] It does it does and I feel their pain. I mean being completely honest with you, you know, like I uh We're after COVID ended and we got a brand new office space Um, and I was super excited about it. I was proud of it

[00:27:05] I brought all my staff back into the office and then you know, I think like slowly one by one I go almost like a large portion of my my my employees came in my office and they're like

[00:27:13] I'm okay with being in the office, but you know what so and so I could tell They're really hurting and everyone did that and so finally I adopted, you know, two day a week

[00:27:22] Work from home. I find that if a company is typically offering at least two days a week They're not going to leave for three days a week um, but I feel everyone's pain in this in this situation and and I feel for the owners too because

[00:27:36] they you know, it's It can limit your candidate pool and it can draw employees away um Yeah, it's a goal to navigate man. I'm sure it depends who you ask and how to navigate it, but it's it can be an obstacle fair

[00:27:49] So like let's say a company is willing to do the full remote which sounds like that could be You know, you could use that as a leveraging point from a cost standpoint, but okay, that's good to know I didn't know that for this call um

[00:28:02] What about the hey, I'm a company based in DC or philly or new york and I'm hiring a candidate from kansas, you know the cornfields don't cost as much as you know downtown right so like what about that

[00:28:16] Disparity right and being like does that an advantage? Is it a disadvantage? Does it does it matter? I don't know. What are you saying? So absolutely great question. I mean when when an employer goes out to hire somebody they're gonna have a target range and they will

[00:28:31] Almost always seriously consider a hiring candidate that might be almost qualified but far less expensive It's a simple calculus right and makes a lot of sense Dallas and houston And uh, Tampa, florida. These are hot spots lower cost of living

[00:28:48] Fair amount of saturation of msp's down there. So like the talent pool could be You know robust you can get a lot of candidates to be you know drop a line in the water So yeah, it's a very attractive place to hire

[00:29:01] So yeah, I think a lot of msp's recognize that Um, and so like yeah, we we have a presence in those three cities Tampa houston and dallas and we'll find that Yeah, the average salary will be lower Um, but that's right. Yeah

[00:29:15] Wow, I mean to be honest with you You know those states and those cities are viewed as business pro-business, right? Like it's just Less cost less taxes, right like Little warm hopefully. I don't know Uh, I mean from philly surely, um

[00:29:34] What do you tell people who have done that right like let's say hey, I started that msp in mariland We only service people in mariland We've only had people from mariland and now we're considering for the first time like somebody out of the state who

[00:29:49] I never even dealt with another state. I never registered the other state like they have to go through that for the first time It's a great question. So I think that usually when msp comes to us and they have a full remote position

[00:30:02] Full remote is typically already baked into their business model So I typically I know how to they know how to navigate and like set up taxes there and how to like pay the unemployment

[00:30:11] And so I think I don't know. I got asked that question may one or two times So they have a general sense for it and most most companies that have that model They're pretty agreeable about where the person might live. I might just care about the time zone

[00:30:25] But I think yeah last time I did the math is like 18 percent of all msp's that we staff at least Are hiring full remote and then the large majority is hybrid which can be anything from you know

[00:30:37] You know, it's some portion and some mixed bag of working in the office or working from home But then the number of creep that's continually been creeping me up and it hasn't since 2022 22 is the number msp's out there that want to have people in the office and

[00:30:51] That's probably 50 50 with the hybrid Okay, well, I mean this is Stats you're you have a little bit of a macro thing going on right like because you're dealing with 900 you know from msp so like

[00:31:04] You know less than 20 full remote. I mean to me that's right. That's a clear indication right like this is For the people that are good at that right like not the normal You know, this is maybe a You know a certain percentage small percentage sub 20 percent

[00:31:21] So if you're saying, you know, I don't know I'm going to put a number to it if you're saying 75 percent or hybrid All right, that means they got to hire somebody within a specific geography

[00:31:30] Close enough to them that they can get to an office when the non-hybrid part kicks in but flexible for some working from home right and then I don't know I'm gonna put a percent you or you correct me right is it 10 percent

[00:31:43] Is it 15 percent that are like nope in the office or bus? Oh like full in the office. I'd say it's like it's probably 40 40 20 just around it up 40 percent or like full office 40 percent hybrid and then like the 18 20 percent are gonna be

[00:31:57] Okay, see i'm glad I got the percentage out of you. All right, so like So like 40 percent that's that's a big flag too, right? It's like hey, this is still the way we do business This is the way it's always been done

[00:32:09] No more reason to be at home. This is how we work if you can't Go somewhere else 40 percent like hey, you know, we understand Let's meet you in the middle and then the other you know people are like

[00:32:19] I don't care if you have internet and you have power and you're gonna show up on time You could work on the moon That's right. I feel like a lot of candidates they they realize that uh,

[00:32:29] It is like this is just the landscape. It is what it is and so I remember 2021 to maybe Early 23 people like the candidates that hit the market they really care

[00:32:40] Like I had to be full remote or a lot of them even said like it has to be I want hybrid because I want it to be a mixed back I think a lot of candidates coming to the market now have acclimated

[00:32:48] They know what they're getting into and they're not being drawn out into the looking for a new job Because they don't have the work like situation that they that they uh that they want and so they're very my point is like They're very open

[00:33:01] You know, I think that like compensation is probably going back to Being uh the trump card as opposed to the work life balance, but for the last four years that was predominantly what people were after was Work from home or hybrid

[00:33:12] What about the topic of and I'm sure this goes each way. So I'd love to hear both sides of the coin You know the acquisition right could be hey, I'm buying someone and then inevitably

[00:33:26] They right size the staff and then people get let go or it could be hey I'm in hiring mode, right like the first company that you mentioned big company They're always acquiring and they're like, hey, we need to add headcount and I've quote

[00:33:37] I've budgeted for so many net new people each year, right like Does that from your perspective? Like you could obviously benefit from both sides of that right because if there's candidates

[00:33:48] Getting cut then you can help place them or vice versa, right? Like how much of that do you see on each side? man Yes, so many acquisitions We know we saw I think that the acquisitions probably being like candidate

[00:34:04] They probably ended up hurting us more than benefiting us I feel like a lot of the companies that were You know taking their companies and packaging them up to get sold. They're probably doing quite well

[00:34:14] They're you know, they could justify working, you know, the staffing firms are growing so fast And those are the ones that got acquired Um, I think that somewhere like our clients uh recently was like, I don't know like 8%

[00:34:25] Of all of our clients had gone through an acquisition. I'm not sure if that sounds like a lot to you But that's a ton and again, those are pretty good companies But then there's typically a shakeout period

[00:34:35] And so like we're sitting in the wings waiting for them to get back to us after the shakeout and like the It dries on the whole acquisition and they got to settle into new norm and then Roadmap so it pushes out our relationship typically months a year

[00:34:49] And so but yeah We still staff a fair amount of them But they get so big they're like their own HR staff now and they might not necessarily have to rely on outside source to find people

[00:34:59] But yeah, and the amount of companies out there getting acquired and sold and I like other clients, you know I mean one company in uh in new york, they're like 25 employees

[00:35:09] And and they're like we're looking to acquire. We're looking to acquire if you can find us anyone will pay your referral fee I like I stop a mind for everybody. I'm sure you see it more than I do but It's a lot. It's very busy shaking and baking

[00:35:21] Do you So to that front, do you keep a line on the candidates that you place in like Or do you know or vice versa? They keep a line open with you in the event that something like that happens so that they could re

[00:35:35] recycle back into the the candidate pool or How does that work? Yeah, um, so as soon as the candidates Like we don't we don't have much communication with the people once they get placed You know, but if they come back on the market

[00:35:51] Which means like they have to tell us we have to get in writing from the client or from the can like they're no longer employed Then we'll work with them and we love those situations You know, I'm not sure if either one of them might like that situation

[00:36:02] And they got canned or maybe the client didn't know they were resigning Um, but yeah, we love those situations because if we got proof of concept that they're fee worthy We'd love to work with them again. Well, I love to work with the candidates again

[00:36:14] Um, but does it happen that often honestly? That's well, that's probably a good thing Yeah, that's right. That's sure. It's a good thing. Yeah, right. I you know like It's a little bit contentious situation there, right? Like hey, it didn't you know why why is this happening?

[00:36:28] What happened? Is this a good thing? Is this mutual? You know all the stories that come along with that um You know, you must be really good at interviewing because I know like a lot of technical at least in the msp business me like

[00:36:45] Have you heard the concept of like uh A technical interview or ride along if you would right where they're like, hey Let's just throw you into the office or you know for for a half a day or a day and just

[00:36:59] Let's see. Maybe you like it. Maybe we like you what we'll find out real quick, right? Once you're in the school Is that kind of thing happened? I do not do not see it that often I think it's one way to kind of uh, I guess uh

[00:37:16] Determ any candidates from being that interested because it's not the norm but Like that's great. If an msp can position their opportunities like this is part of our interview process coming for half a day

[00:37:27] We'll pay you put you on a machine see what you can do like that is awesome You know, could you get the really test drive the situation and it's good for the candidate?

[00:37:34] You want the candidate to feel comfortable coming in there and so they know what they're getting into Uh, but it's kind of rare. It's happening right now. I probably only see it happen just you know less than five times a year

[00:37:43] Um, but it's good for everybody if they can do that. I would think that's something that would happen more often Yeah, I guess you're right I guess you're right. I I mean because like listen

[00:37:53] You might be like, you know the people that are really good at standardized testing and you know, the real people are Not me Yeah, right, but like The hands-on people like you put them in front of something and they tend to just get right into it

[00:38:05] Right, it's like riding a bike, right? Right in nature for them But you really can't do that in a zoom, right like Yeah, like you can try but like just different but I'm I'm surprised that this isn't more frequent

[00:38:18] You know, like you're not seeing this as like I would hope it's starting to become something that's even recommended But if it's five times a year out of 175 candidates a month like that's point 0002 Yeah, it's not that many It's not that many

[00:38:32] Yeah, but it actually normally works out when companies do that. So like as a high hit rate Uh, I don't know why that is. Hey, if I should consider building bacon head in my model, thanks the idea George

[00:38:44] Hey, you know like listen if it helps that helps them again, you said you work on 900 msp Listen, there's 90. I guess everybody has a different number. Let's just go with the low number 90 95 000 people

[00:38:57] That could be categorized as it msp bar whatever you know, whatever term you want to put into the pool with north america Okay, so like 900 just a small chunk of those but pretty good chunk and like if they can get a better at results

[00:39:09] And then that practice spreads through the rest of the industry because it's a community like every other industry Then maybe we're a little bit more successful Why not?

[00:39:19] We'll call the George. We'll say why don't you just do the George and this is where the candidate comes in worse for you from four hours Uh, and we'll pack it up. Yeah, I like I don't know man. Like I'm sure you've heard the

[00:39:32] You know the whole millennial gen z Whatever different opinions on work ethic and yada yada yada, but like There's a little bit of truth to that right and like let's face it So this can this can be a high pressure

[00:39:47] Industry right like you're on the front lines. There's an outage happening that day both microsoft and amazon respectively in the last two weeks Separate of crouch strike had outages like multi like half day

[00:39:58] Outages like you got a lot of your customers banging on your door, you know being salty That's not the best situation, but like they're lining up It's not it's not one. It's not one every every so often like you're jammed right like so like

[00:40:12] You know, you almost can't you know grace under pressure grace under fire whatever turn You know the cliche you want to use like you just don't know until you're in it You don't you don't and I think yeah, because like oh shit because like you're in msp

[00:40:27] We stuff Only msp's and so we're only going to give you msp candidates. I think it's Good to check that box Because you don't know what you're gonna get and honestly can't it happens the candidates too, you know We'll get a phone call from the candidate

[00:40:42] Three six months in they're like this is just not What I originally thought it was not going well And then we're doing like a conference call with the hiring manager and trying to figure out what's going on um

[00:40:53] But yeah, I mean from where we're sitting as like a broker an agent We get we get both we get both sides of the story We get both sides of the story interview is hard man. Even for me

[00:41:02] It's I don't know if it's art or science, but clearly it's something you do often You ever hear that other things like if you do something for 10,000 hours. Yeah. Yeah expert probably done 10,000 hours or more yeah I would have said it not me. He said it not me

[00:41:19] I would have As part like, you know a lot of people put a lot of and it seems like you do a combination of things because you're very msp focused here But like the personality test the disc test the and then so many different

[00:41:33] Kind of versions of this right where like you're trying to figure out What this person is actually good at versus what they think they're good at right and like are they high You know high wire person or they're laid back person just any other right so like

[00:41:47] You know like I always laugh with the nfl right wonder like what does that tell you? I don't know what like I eventually stopped using it a couple years ago, but You know like do you have a profile based on role that you're like

[00:42:00] Usually for a level one help desk frontline person This is the type of thing that we look for that fits best based on our experience versus hey Project person that needs to be very detail oriented But the level one guy needs to be like

[00:42:16] Little bit cool under pressure so that he's not flustered. You know while he's dealing with you know, what could be You know rapidly evolving situation like Do you like is that the type of thing that you have you know kind of down at this point?

[00:42:30] I think it's I mean we're Yeah, I mean I think we got a good beat on it We have a model and it seems to translate into you know successful hires

[00:42:39] That's a great question. I really like that question. So the way we do it. It's very standardized systemized they go through the same process and You know where when we go into the way we operate so like when we find candidates

[00:42:51] We exist by having economies of scale for jobs So if jobs posted everywhere in mass And in some ways like I'm really just like a you know half my company is like a job posting company We tracked around 44,000 resumes a month

[00:43:05] And so when we interview someone it's because they came to us And then we interview that candidate regardless that we have a position for them because we're so niche right and we operate in only eight cities

[00:43:16] And MSPs are attracted to the same thing and how the same profiles will bring that candidate and do our interview process And then we'll turn around say okay, where does this candidate can be a best fit?

[00:43:25] So when it comes like matching up the culture the presentation cool under pressure It really depends on how the role they have open and their company culture But there are still things like are they engaging we call it poppy, you know, they interesting to listen to and energetic

[00:43:40] You know, they they well spoken and articulate Um, it's okay to be not those things But we'll like package up and we try and label them Um, and then we use those as like indicators for what that company culture is in that position um, and so

[00:43:56] That's that's our way our way of doing it And then when it comes like the wonderlick test we don't administer one of those Those things are fine. Uh, it's one piece of the puzzle and if you can get it and you subscribe to it

[00:44:06] Good for you. They'll only hang up with those are uh, I always tell it like my clients Like don't make it the very first interaction this candidate has either company is a test Tell them on how great you are first then have them jump through some hoops

[00:44:19] So put it towards the end of the interview process because you'll start getting candidates that are good They're gonna be picky and have options and they're not going to jump through hoops like that if

[00:44:27] The other companies, you know aren't having to do it. But yeah, wonderlicks are kind of common It's fair. It's fair. Um From a just brass tax standpoint, right like A lot of people sometimes have to overspend to get a person, right? I don't know if that's just

[00:44:49] Fatigue right hey, I've been through so many people I'm at the point now where I just I need someone I need them to be The right fit and if I gotta overspend and figure it out later to get them in then that's what I got to do

[00:45:03] Like obviously it's an uncomfortable position from a budgeting standpoint from the company, right? Because like they're now going outside of their norm but As I'm sure you know and everybody else knows

[00:45:14] Not just in time. There's a dollar cost every time you onboard somebody, right by the time they Metriculate, right? There's just hard costs involved in doing that and it adds up, right? When you

[00:45:26] Are consulting with these 900 plus MSPs and you're like, hey your budget's not gonna do it You're gonna have to like we've tried it's just not working Either you're gonna have to go outside of your footprint, right? If you're in office

[00:45:40] Maybe you got to go hybrid or remote or you got it like because we need maybe we need to pull somebody from another Geography that's not in order to get to your price point

[00:45:46] Or maybe you just got to find it find more money, right? Because otherwise you can't you can't get you know You're not going to get to a successful point How often is that conversation happening? A lot happens a lot. We pumped out

[00:45:59] Every two years we create what's called, you know the bowman williams msp salary guide And you can like search for like 36 different positions and it describes that tier Then it does like the median the average and then the in the range

[00:46:12] And we use that as a good benchmark, but it's usually kind of a wide range when it comes to a client like part of our job is Making sure translating their job requirements and compensation to make sure it aligns with the realities of the market

[00:46:26] And so a lot of time we'll you know, we'll tell them and we'll give them examples Here's you know, the typical candidate will show them the resume and the years of experience and what they're doing And then we'll say here's like two or three of them

[00:46:36] Like you can see what they're making and here's what you typically get at that price point And so msp is like, oh man, but you know what like I heard that's you know 75 000 is a is an agreeable price for a level 2.5 and it's like yes

[00:46:49] You're kind of on the cusp there And it's on the lower end, but you're in that range But if and that candidate's got three four years of doing that exact job They're gonna be leaving for like five k more at least so also like aligning it with

[00:47:02] You know good talent, but yeah that that calibration is is part of what we try and help people do and it's hard I think that most companies will probably agree, you know

[00:47:11] It's difficult making sure your budget aligns because sometimes you know you need it, but you can't afford it and then like what do you do? um But I think it's a calculus a lot of companies are always going through and we had a

[00:47:20] I mean two years ago after the you know, covid salaries exploded So like project engineers are averaging around like 95 000 now. They're 100 120 125 000 That's the biggest jump in any position. So that's a huge leap and that's a difficult pill to swallow That's a huge jump huge huge

[00:47:40] Do you to that point do you when you're interviewing your candidates 14 000 residents? I'm sure there's a lot of automation and ai or machine or some sort of software in there, but that being said like What do you what do you is it a red flag for you?

[00:47:57] I mean Generally we're told it is but is it red flag for you when somebody's like well You don't seem to stick anywhere very long right like yeah, you know six months eight months a year

[00:48:08] Like it's not a long time and like you know now this is a trend. There's more than a trend now Right your four or five jobs in and you're never there for more than a year

[00:48:16] Because you're salary jumping right like you're just basically playing the field every year to try and do this ladder thing Is that a is that a flag?

[00:48:24] So I don't think you know, I wouldn't expect an msp to pay us a premium to find someone that doesn't have like Roof and stick ability So that's kind of a like non-starter for us If it's someone

[00:48:36] We call it being happy if they have that indicates in the resume that they've been slightly happy Let's say if they are happy they're out for us We're not first not the best resource for them

[00:48:46] I'm sure they can find job on the road and they're great, but there's not a good resource for us But if they have you know, it's like kind of on the cusp of that and they can

[00:48:54] Provide adequate answers that explain why this would have happened then we would rule them out I think that like MSP industry has relatively high turnover and whether you're like an MSP is working with us or not like

[00:49:05] Finding that tenure is like super critical. I think it's super critical Great piece of the puzzle. Yeah chat gpt resume writing, I mean like I'm sure you're seeing something like this, right?

[00:49:20] I gotta be honest with you so like I use chat gb on a daily basis for help like like content and some marketing branding And I get marketed and you know in my inbox all the time about like all these different tools

[00:49:31] I have not find it to be like ubiquitous in my my world yet And so I'm not even really sure how it fits in. I'm sure Someone's smarter than me and staffing just probably got a good beat on it and using it in a way that I'm not

[00:49:45] but I usually don't find That much I don't I currently use it that much in my model Um, and but maybe can't it's using it for resume writing. Honestly, they'd be dumb if they weren't

[00:49:55] Um, I think it's probably really really helpful for you for doing that. Um, but yeah, that's a great. It's a great question I don't know. What do you think? Think people are using it a lot for resume writing

[00:50:05] Yeah, it's good for job descriptions cover letter resume writing for sure like you know like You know if you do have 14,000, you know, you know apps coming through your system every month I'm sorry 44,000 I had to go way off by tens of thousand

[00:50:21] Like you're like probably looking for Keywords and phrases, right? Probably a lot of skill set things but like, you know, you know, you have your your your It's called algorithm, right in the system searching for certain things in order to hit your matches

[00:50:36] But like this is like what on the opposite side It's the candidate saying well, I need to be you know, what are the keywords? Write me a resume with the keywords that are going to get me hired, right?

[00:50:46] The problem is that if you get enough people feeding the machine Your system and and and the brain on the other side are going to eventually line up That's a good way of looking at it. That could be very misleading. Yeah So mostly what we're doing is manual

[00:51:03] To the extent where you know if a candidate applies More than three times, we don't want to receive the resume because we got it And then when it comes in it gets funneled up one of the recruiters

[00:51:15] Here and then in the subject line and in the body of the email We have our system pulling out keywords, but they're usually just to help them prioritize Their day and they're still going to open up the resume

[00:51:29] And I think I mean the way we do it. I mean my recruitment team, you know The average tenure here is over five years for them. They they just They just go through it, but we keep it manual. It's probably Kind of grueling

[00:51:43] So but yeah, that's that's a we we go through it. We probably should be using AI as a listen to myself talk And if you have any good tools, I am all ears got it. See that guys. You know, oh, it's an opportunity out there um

[00:51:56] I love the you had a couple things that I think are good takeaways here that if I'm an msp and I'm hiring people and in my other Businesses I do hire people probably not the best interviewer, but that's just me admitting that I'm not a good interviewer um

[00:52:14] As an msp, I love the I have 36 roles or 35 roles. Here's the the guide, right? Here's the salary ranges Here's what we want you to know about what you're looking for So like that sounds like a really good resource

[00:52:28] So I don't know if that's like hey, I need to engage in order to see that that intel but like that sounds Okay, cool. Where people get that Go to bowmanwames.com at the very top download the msp salary. Yeah That's cool. Thanks George

[00:52:45] Definitely go download that right now stop what you're doing and go go download that. Okay. Second thing I liked was I don't know if it's spelled out on your website, but the process that you go through right like the

[00:52:58] You know, like here's why we're good at msp. Here's our process. You know, it's it's been pretty good We only see five four or five percent kickback. That's really good bad and get average

[00:53:09] So like let me tell you why this works because we've gotten to this after you know trial and error Is that anywhere that they can see that? Probably also bowman williams.com it should outline it difficult to convey all of that but we've done our best

[00:53:23] Okay, cool. And then in the same place if they're really interested and they're like Hey, this guy sounds like he knows our business because this is all he does

[00:53:32] And what are the cities that you say you work in specifically? I think you said there was like eight cities. Was that right? I did. Yes. Thank you. So that's gonna be washington dc The new york metropolitan, of course concluding northern new jersey chicago dallas houston

[00:53:48] los angeles and then most recently tampa and atlanta So if you're looking for people in any one of those cities and they're like, hey I would rather go with somebody that's

[00:53:59] Like industry specific rather than just a generalist and no offense to robert half where you spend some time at like That seems to me like big company guy not msp guy, right? Bowman will meet the home in williams.com is where they should start

[00:54:14] Do you have them go to a special place bowman names.com or you can message me on linkedin? All right, that's probably the best place to go. Thank you Tell them how to spell your last name john

[00:54:24] Last name is spell. Yeah, full name is john davin j last name is spelled like davin port only it's davin j d a v e n j a y perfect Do you happen to find yourself out of your mariland office? You end up at industry events at all

[00:54:39] Do you know what I was hot and heavy with the industry events? Uh, I was you know, I felt very lucky to speak at connect wise Multiple times and then the channel futures events and I love doing it. I haven't been in an event in probably a year

[00:54:52] Been a year. Um, but yeah, I get out of the I get out of the office I do And I get out well Listen if you happen to be at any of the big ones that we mentioned, right?

[00:55:01] Yeah, they're all gonna be like a september october every year It's like, you know, I call that the gauntlet because they're all so close to each other Uh, definitely let us know. We'd love to meet up with you Uh, grab a beer talk shop

[00:55:13] But yeah, I I find value as a guy who's been in the sandbox here for starting 2000 2001 or in 24. It's not a pretty good run there. Um This is In 2024 still in the top three to five things that every msp owner when surveyed say they still have struggle

[00:55:34] I know You like you've created a business around it, but it is a problem For and I would think not for lack of talent pool like it's out there. It's The struggle to go through the process and come out with a good outcome

[00:55:51] I mean that's what it is and I know a lot of business owners that have tried the well shine outsource it Like not even out of the country just to a like a help desk or a knock or some sort of third party resource

[00:56:07] And the problem there is like your You know, there's a lot of selling propositions of the msp business But like good service is probably somewhere at the top of that like when it's not your people you lose the ability to like Deliver that store. Yeah control that so

[00:56:24] You know like for the people that go that way. I mean I feel like it's out of exhaustion It's usually not funny thing. It's just like I can't figure it out and I can't like time is killing Yeah, yeah a lot of msp's and that 12 to 15 employee range

[00:56:41] You know, they're typically the owners recognize they need to hire they punt kick the responsibility to a help desk manager or service manager And they typically not always right They're going to kind of fumble through it and in depth

[00:56:52] They typically don't know how to feed the top of the funnel the job description It isn't the right response and it comes through and it usually If people get frustrated

[00:57:00] Uh, and I feel like a lot more companies right now are starting to kick things outside their own organization white labeling overseas I feel like you know, it's it's Probably because like they don't want to increase overhead. Uh, you know, they're not you know

[00:57:12] Not hiring because it's opportunistic and because they have the business I think they want to keep it overhead flat and reduced and they go overseas But that's happening more and more but yeah, I think that's uh Most company struggle. Yeah, I've seen it The last 15 years

[00:57:27] I've seen people go there and I've seen people say this didn't work out well and come back so Yes, such such as the circle that we all live in John. I really appreciate you jumping on here

[00:57:37] Uh, I learned a lot from this and by the way, that's kind of why we do these right like you're an expert in your lane And the people running msp's definitely this is not their lane

[00:57:46] And so like we we need to learn from people and this is one way to do it so Bowman williams.com check it out definitely go and just download the one thing that the guide. I mean

[00:57:58] It sounds like that's like gold information that you would otherwise stumble into The hard way. Don't do that. Just download that and work backwards Uh, thanks John for jumping on appreciate you. Uh, take an hour out of your day

[00:58:11] Everyone else this session was absolutely recorded lots of good advice here Go back and rewind and then hit john on linkedin and like Ask questions sounds like he's a guy who does answer his messages and like I like that Appreciate man

[00:58:27] George, this is great. Thank you so much for having you got it. I appreciate you guys. See you. Bye