John Hill of Adapted Growth

[00:00:01] Hello, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to an August 13 edition of the MSP Initiative MSP Talk.

[00:00:09] As we always do at the beginning of these, we do some housekeeping.

[00:00:12] We get all the good stuff informational in front of you so you know where it is.

[00:00:17] Move it off to the side. Then we get into the fun conversation, which is why we keep doing these all the time.

[00:00:24] So here we go. Without further ado, for the people watching this, in video format, MSPinitiative.com.

[00:00:31] Basically, this is where we park all the stuff that we do.

[00:00:33] So for example, this very session is being recorded and is parked with all the other previously recorded sessions,

[00:00:39] not just on our YouTube page, not just on our podcast, podcatcher, but also on sessions at MSPinitiative.com.

[00:00:45] So you can go back till March of 2020. It's hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of sessions.

[00:00:50] Download, forward, subscribe, comment, whatever. It's all there. Check it out.

[00:00:56] And then MSP Community Minds, as you know, is our twice a year, or at least this year, twice a year, educational event.

[00:01:02] We had our last one in Nashville. The next one's coming up in Denver, September 25th, 26th.

[00:01:07] So it should be pretty good weather around there that time.

[00:01:10] If you go to MSPinitiative.com under Community Minds, you'll see the agenda for both days.

[00:01:15] So check it out. It's a two-day event.

[00:01:16] You'll see all of our MSP panelists, right?

[00:01:18] So these are people like you from the trench that are coming to tell you about what works and what doesn't.

[00:01:23] I mean, I don't know about any more targeted than that, but that's information I would care about because, like, theoretical stuff's great.

[00:01:29] I want to know what's practical. Here it is.

[00:01:31] And then, as our speaker today on the podcast will tell you, he's one of eight workshops where we're doing two-hour workshops approximately

[00:01:41] and actually going into a topic and not trying to swipe your credit card at the end of it.

[00:01:45] So these are everything from legal, content creation, marketing, sales methodology, finance, you name it, right?

[00:01:56] Check it out. Security.

[00:01:58] This event is completely designed for you at the MSP.

[00:02:01] And, by the way, 100% free for you to register and attend.

[00:02:04] All you got to do is get there. That part is the time and money part.

[00:02:07] So what do you got to lose?

[00:02:09] No $9.99, $12.99, $3.99 registration free.

[00:02:12] It is free.

[00:02:13] Right. You just need to get there.

[00:02:15] And this is some pretty good content.

[00:02:17] We had really good feedback from Nashville.

[00:02:19] And we actually started this last year in Denver, so we're coming back to where we started.

[00:02:23] So September 25th, 26th.

[00:02:25] Check it out.

[00:02:25] MSP Community Minds.

[00:02:26] We hope to see you there.

[00:02:27] I mean, I know there's 8,000 events you could go to every year, which is actually in our industry calendar page on MSPInitiative.com.

[00:02:32] But we think we've done a really good job trying to get you a wide breadth of information with the right people in the room where you can actually figure out what's going on and decide what you can apply to your own business.

[00:02:47] Full stop.

[00:02:49] Lastly, we have our community offers on MSPInitiative.com.

[00:02:51] Check it out.

[00:02:52] If there's anything you can take advantage of there, please do.

[00:02:55] And that is all the housekeeping.

[00:02:56] Boom.

[00:02:56] Oh, wait.

[00:02:58] And I see.

[00:02:59] I rushed through it.

[00:03:00] I do have one more piece of housekeeping.

[00:03:02] Lastly are the five, not one, not two, not three.

[00:03:07] It's like LeBron James over here.

[00:03:08] Five remaining MSP Community Block parties this year.

[00:03:12] So if you are going to ConnectWise IT Nation in Australia, PAX 8 Beyond Germany in October, DattoCon in Miami on South Beach at the Fountain Blue in October,

[00:03:23] ConnectWise IT Nation, the big one in Orlando in November.

[00:03:26] And then lastly, DattoCon in Sydney in November.

[00:03:30] We are doing community block parties for you.

[00:03:34] That's right.

[00:03:35] A little entertainment, a little beverage, a little food, a lot of community and a ton of networking.

[00:03:42] You don't have to be a nighttime creature to take advantage of these.

[00:03:46] They're pretty fun.

[00:03:47] You know, people talk about them all the time.

[00:03:49] Sometimes we bring a radio recognizable band like we will in Orlando.

[00:03:52] So if you're a fan of like a free concert, there's where you're going to get it.

[00:03:57] So all for you, all for free.

[00:04:00] Register now so that you don't have to stand in line trying to type on your phone when you're trying to get in and see, you know, get all the fun.

[00:04:06] MSP Initiative.com under block parties.

[00:04:09] There they all are.

[00:04:09] Now I am done moving that off to the side.

[00:04:13] Here we go.

[00:04:15] First time.

[00:04:16] Actually, is it the first time?

[00:04:18] Maybe the second time.

[00:04:19] But I think not recently.

[00:04:20] Here we invite back John Hill onto the show.

[00:04:24] John graciously invested some time in the Nashville community mind.

[00:04:30] So we're going to talk about that for a little bit after we learn a little bit about John.

[00:04:33] And then like maybe you get a little bit of taste of what you would get in the workshop John's going to put on in Denver, which quite frankly is about a topic that at least for as long as I've been in the MSP sandbox has been in the top three things that everybody complains about over and over and over again, which is sales.

[00:04:56] And when should you hire salespeople?

[00:04:58] How does that look?

[00:04:59] And what's the best way?

[00:05:01] And when you go from like the owner led sales to an actual more than just you, or if you actually have a team of people, how does that work?

[00:05:07] I'll tell you what.

[00:05:09] I feel like it's more art than science.

[00:05:11] Maybe John will disagree with me.

[00:05:13] We'll give him a chance.

[00:05:14] But before we get too deep down the rabbit hole, I want to give John a chance to give you a little bit of an intro, give you his background.

[00:05:22] So maybe you understand why we'll ask for him to be at Community Minds.

[00:05:24] And then you'll understand all the stuff that comes after it comes from like a place where, you know, you might want to take a little bit of an expert opinion.

[00:05:31] There you go.

[00:05:32] Go for it, John.

[00:05:33] Wow, man.

[00:05:34] Thank you.

[00:05:35] What quite the intro.

[00:05:36] So, yeah.

[00:05:37] So my name is John Hill.

[00:05:39] I run a company called Adapted Growth.

[00:05:40] And we coach founders how to sell.

[00:05:43] We work with sales teams that are already existing.

[00:05:45] We figure out how to create lifts in the name of consistency and work with people who really want to do it ethically and do it consistently.

[00:05:53] Right.

[00:05:53] Because lots of people can get it done when they're under duress due to timelines, end of a quarter, end of the year.

[00:05:59] But it's something wholly different to have consistency in the sales motion.

[00:06:02] And a lot of people never get there.

[00:06:04] And so we try to help people just make it a little bit more consistent so that way it's less hope and pray and, you know, maximum effort under duress.

[00:06:13] And it's just a little bit of work every day.

[00:06:15] Right.

[00:06:15] Just doing it consistently has a profound impact on changing how we relate to this.

[00:06:20] You know, as you said, one of the top three biggest concerns in the space.

[00:06:24] So, yeah.

[00:06:26] I mean, I started my IT services company way back when in Philly Metro here, like out of the back of my car, like everybody else, I think.

[00:06:35] Or their basement, man cave, whatever.

[00:06:39] Back in 2000, 2001.

[00:06:41] Wow.

[00:06:41] Literally attended hundreds, probably over a thousand events.

[00:06:47] I couldn't tell you exactly, but it's up there.

[00:06:49] This is still literally still in 2024.

[00:06:53] I started in 2001.

[00:06:54] 2024 is still top three.

[00:06:56] And I'm like, why hasn't this been figured out?

[00:06:59] I don't get it.

[00:07:00] I think, John, I think the reason that that's the case in this sandbox, IT, managed services land, is you're taking technical people.

[00:07:08] Who probably are not well inclined to be in the sales seat.

[00:07:13] Right.

[00:07:14] Like they do it because they have to.

[00:07:16] But like this isn't their jam.

[00:07:18] This isn't what they're good at.

[00:07:20] This isn't their natural thing.

[00:07:22] Like, you know, if you said, hey, you know, like maybe you can tell us where really good salespeople come from.

[00:07:27] I'm sure a lot of places.

[00:07:28] But like if somebody came from a hospitality gig, they might be good.

[00:07:32] Somebody came from car sales.

[00:07:34] They might be good in sales and MSP sales.

[00:07:35] I don't know.

[00:07:36] But like when it comes from somebody who is like a tax.

[00:07:40] Sales doesn't seem to be something that they end up being good at.

[00:07:43] For some reason.

[00:07:44] You know, I mean, a lot of that, I think, kind of comes down to how sales is portrayed.

[00:07:49] Right.

[00:07:49] Just, you know, globally that you have to be a certain type of salesperson to be or a certain type of person to be a salesperson.

[00:07:55] Right.

[00:07:55] And that's kind of where I start to go off of that path a little bit because I myself am an introverted guy.

[00:08:02] And so if you run me through any one of the personality assessments, right, it doesn't matter if it's Breyers, Breyers, Breyers, Breyers, excuse me, DISC or any of the other ones.

[00:08:11] If you're just looking at the personality, I never make the cut because I am wired more like the tech is.

[00:08:18] Right.

[00:08:18] Introverted system thinker, linear thinker, clear expectations.

[00:08:22] I don't want to mess up.

[00:08:23] Give me some room to run and then please get out of my way so I can do a good job.

[00:08:26] And what was frustrating was the first 10 years in sales was I thought I was I thought I was the only person who was trying to sell while feeling this way.

[00:08:35] And that was just categorically not true.

[00:08:37] There's lots of introverts who try sales.

[00:08:39] Not everybody makes it.

[00:08:41] OK.

[00:08:42] I would say most people don't make it.

[00:08:44] Most people don't make it.

[00:08:45] At least from this, at least from the sandbox we're talking about today.

[00:08:49] Sure.

[00:08:49] Like I get to say I get the owner like tech who backed who ended up starting a company.

[00:08:55] Right.

[00:08:55] Yeah.

[00:08:55] And there's a few reasons.

[00:08:56] Right.

[00:08:56] They're an internal IT.

[00:08:58] They got laid off, started an IT company or whatever.

[00:09:00] Like that's common use case.

[00:09:02] Right.

[00:09:02] Like they have to go.

[00:09:04] They do like the free network assessment.

[00:09:06] Right.

[00:09:06] They check it out.

[00:09:07] They write up a little proposal and then like, yeah, here's what I can do for you.

[00:09:11] They kind of stumble through that and then maybe get some customers accidentally or by recommend or referral.

[00:09:17] And like sales is not necessarily like, you know, they're strong to the point where like.

[00:09:27] I'll even take like a slight turn.

[00:09:29] And then the next thing I'm about to say in the MSP circle, sandbox, I like to call it.

[00:09:36] Mm-hmm.

[00:09:36] We often hear the person in the IT services company or MSP complain about the sales workflow tactics mechanism of the vendors that sell to that.

[00:09:48] Oh, yeah.

[00:09:48] Yeah.

[00:09:49] They're often saying, you know, I just don't like the way that they do it.

[00:09:52] You know, like they're just, they feel too aggressive or they're calling me from a number that looks like it's down the street.

[00:09:57] But there's, you know, like really not.

[00:09:59] Yeah.

[00:09:59] They're in another state or, you know, they just, they're, they're, they're, they're emailing, you know, they're emailing certain topics that like, you know, just, I feel like, you know, they almost, they almost come off with a, it feels like a sleazy rather than like, you know.

[00:10:10] And I'm just like, well, hey guys, like, you know, in order for every company to function sales, whether you want to call it sales or not, but we're going to call it sales today is how it works.

[00:10:23] Right.

[00:10:24] I don't care if you're Elon Musk and Tesla selling electric cars.

[00:10:28] I don't care if you're an MSP selling IT services.

[00:10:31] I don't care if you got the hot dog cart on the corner of New York city, trying to sell some whatever hot dogs, like you need to sell stuff for everything else to work.

[00:10:39] Exactly right.

[00:10:40] Unfortunately, it's not something you can just ignore.

[00:10:44] You know, I agree with you, but I feel like most other people, they're, they're waiting for a time for when it makes sense to start selling.

[00:10:53] Right.

[00:10:54] A really good friend of mine.

[00:10:56] I've done martial arts with this guy for a very long time and he was, he was out on his own, right.

[00:11:00] Doing IT support.

[00:11:02] And we tried to work together.

[00:11:03] I was going to come in, I was going to be his salesperson and everything.

[00:11:05] And we decided that that was not really going to work because I was going to, he doesn't want a lot of growth.

[00:11:13] Right.

[00:11:14] And so we're still good friends.

[00:11:15] He took a role.

[00:11:16] He went internal and then decided that that was not the right fit for him.

[00:11:19] And so now he's back out on his own, which I'm like, awesome, man.

[00:11:22] You got to be in the right lane for you.

[00:11:24] And it's sometimes hard to go back inside if you've been out on your own for too long.

[00:11:28] And so I, I messaged him.

[00:11:30] I was like, Hey, where are you at?

[00:11:33] Like, how are you thinking about growth in sales and marketing with, with now you being back out here and having to do it on your own?

[00:11:39] And his response was, I think the standard response of most people in the IT space.

[00:11:44] I'm just focused on doing a good job.

[00:11:47] I just want to take care of my clients.

[00:11:48] I don't want to sell.

[00:11:50] Right.

[00:11:51] And there's this idea that if you just do a good enough job that will open up referrals and expansion and different things like that.

[00:11:58] And it will, but you also, it doesn't take a lot of effort to be slightly proactive and being slightly proactive can have a huge impact on the business itself, as opposed to being reactive and waiting for people to come your way.

[00:12:11] Because at least if we're proactive and we're falling forward and you're going to fail sometimes as a salesperson, you're going to get no's.

[00:12:18] Like, at least we're falling forward.

[00:12:19] You know, there's some improvement from that because we're not just kind of like in, like sitting back, trying to receive things that aren't even being put in direction towards our way.

[00:12:28] Right.

[00:12:28] And by the way, everything you just said sounds super familiar.

[00:12:32] And quite frankly, I think is the default status quo in sandbox land.

[00:12:39] Like they, you know, you know, former president of the 76ers once said, and I'm sure he didn't create it, but it's out there.

[00:12:50] It's like, hey, if you're not growing, you're dying.

[00:12:52] Right.

[00:12:52] Just the ebb and flow of economy and business, especially small, medium business.

[00:12:58] Like people go up, people go down, people shut down.

[00:13:01] We saw during COVID, a lot of people didn't make it.

[00:13:03] Right.

[00:13:03] Like it is just the ebb and flow of how the world spins.

[00:13:07] So like you saying, oh, I have a set set of customers.

[00:13:10] I'm good.

[00:13:11] Don't need to worry about it.

[00:13:12] Business is good.

[00:13:13] These customers are gonna be here forever.

[00:13:14] It's just not true.

[00:13:16] Yes.

[00:13:16] Agreed.

[00:13:17] And let's talk about hope and pray that that's going to be the case.

[00:13:20] Yeah.

[00:13:20] Yeah.

[00:13:20] And then let's talk about the other thing that happens, right?

[00:13:23] Because since these people have like a natural aversion to sales, right?

[00:13:27] Part of it's tied to personality.

[00:13:29] While I'm kind of wired like a tech, I've spent eight years working with a sales coach and back to back with like mentors and other entrepreneurs and stuff like this.

[00:13:37] So I've just been lucky in the fact that I struggled for a long time and then I sought out coaching that was going to help me.

[00:13:44] Right?

[00:13:45] So some of this stuff we end up talking ourselves into status quo thinking because we don't know how to get the help that we need.

[00:13:51] Okay?

[00:13:52] But one thing that happens is that if you have an aversion to selling, you're not selling, you're not selling.

[00:13:57] Finally, one of your clients makes a referral for you.

[00:13:59] Okay?

[00:14:00] You don't really have the sales conversation because you're avoidant of it.

[00:14:03] You don't really enjoy doing it.

[00:14:04] So you just bring them on as a client.

[00:14:05] And then that client sucks, which has happened.

[00:14:08] It happens to everybody.

[00:14:09] Okay?

[00:14:10] And so because we're so fearful of that sales conversation, we're not really sure how to qualify for expectation.

[00:14:17] Right?

[00:14:17] And expectation is the real fundamental name of the game.

[00:14:20] If you are meeting their expectation as a service provider, they keep you.

[00:14:23] If you're not meeting their expectations as a service provider, they're not.

[00:14:27] You won't keep them.

[00:14:29] Right?

[00:14:29] And some of them won't fire you, but they're going to like make you jump through hoops.

[00:14:33] They're going to run you.

[00:14:34] They're going to ask for the world.

[00:14:35] And we're going to feel compelled sometimes to bow to those standards.

[00:14:39] Right?

[00:14:40] Compromise our own standards to try to do what the client wants, especially in situations if revenue is not where we want it to be.

[00:14:46] So, you know, you'll hear about people who are like, well, I'm going to charge them a little bit more because I think they're going to be hard to deal with.

[00:14:52] We could just tell that person no and move on and find someone who we think we can do a good job with.

[00:14:57] But we have to shift some of our perspectives for that to open up as a thing that we should be thinking about.

[00:15:03] You know, like we've had Brad Gross, which is another person that's at MSP Community Minds, I'm sure.

[00:15:08] Yeah, I met him.

[00:15:09] Super cool guy.

[00:15:10] You know, Brad, similar to you, came from the tech chair and just gravitated towards his specialty.

[00:15:16] Right?

[00:15:16] Which isn't a bad thing because like now you have a competency in two things.

[00:15:20] Right?

[00:15:20] It's like, hey, I was a doctor.

[00:15:21] Then I became a lawyer.

[00:15:22] Right?

[00:15:22] In this case, he was a tech.

[00:15:23] And then he became a lawyer.

[00:15:25] One of the things that Brad always says, because I've listened to Brad now for a long time.

[00:15:33] Perception is likely where a lot of things end up in a bad place.

[00:15:37] Right?

[00:15:38] 100%.

[00:15:38] Service agreement says one thing, but before the service agreement, you said something else.

[00:15:44] And then after the service agreement, they're thinking something else.

[00:15:48] And then now we have a triple misalignment.

[00:15:49] And then when something bad ultimately happens, because we're in a world where that's a thing now.

[00:15:55] Again, I keep bringing up CrowdStrike.

[00:15:57] But you all know the situations where something goes bad.

[00:15:59] Data was lost.

[00:16:00] System was crashed.

[00:16:02] Something wasn't done in the appropriate times.

[00:16:04] Whatever.

[00:16:05] Whatever.

[00:16:07] Then things get a little bit crazy.

[00:16:11] Right?

[00:16:11] Where like a vector what will happen is you end up in a bad place.

[00:16:15] You're in court.

[00:16:15] And now all of a sudden, if your service agreement wasn't in place, now you're in worse shape.

[00:16:20] But at least the service agreement is there.

[00:16:22] Then the question is, were you following the service agreement?

[00:16:25] All that being said, perception is fickle.

[00:16:27] Especially in IT MSP land.

[00:16:30] I've actually said it a few times.

[00:16:31] But like IT is like one of the top three or four most hated industries.

[00:16:37] It's a conversation as lawyer, insurance agent, and mechanic.

[00:16:44] And sales.

[00:16:45] And mechanic.

[00:16:46] And mechanic.

[00:16:47] Why are those four things grouped together?

[00:16:50] Right?

[00:16:51] You don't understand everything that the person on the other end of that conversation is saying.

[00:16:57] And you're now stuck trying to translate something that you don't understand.

[00:17:02] And it often becomes not comfortable.

[00:17:04] Right?

[00:17:05] So like somebody's like, why am I getting this error message?

[00:17:07] Why is this blue screen of death?

[00:17:08] Why am I getting this check engine?

[00:17:10] Why am I getting dragged into this legal situation?

[00:17:12] You just don't know.

[00:17:14] And it's complicated.

[00:17:15] Right?

[00:17:16] So now we're going to take sales.

[00:17:18] Let's just put it at number five for giggles.

[00:17:20] Right?

[00:17:20] Like top five.

[00:17:21] And you're going to take a profession that people tend to talk negatively about.

[00:17:27] And then take technology, which is a complicated thing.

[00:17:30] And then you go.

[00:17:32] Now you've got a double ramming.

[00:17:33] Right?

[00:17:33] Or you're trying to sell a sophisticated, complicated thing.

[00:17:38] John, I feel like the odds are stacked against me.

[00:17:41] And why do I even buy?

[00:17:44] Well, I love how you said that.

[00:17:46] Because you said something in the beginning of this thing about it being art versus science.

[00:17:52] It is an art, but you can use science to bottle the lightning, if you will.

[00:17:59] Right?

[00:17:59] That's how we think about it.

[00:18:01] And so what we always start with is going back to the, because you also hit this nail

[00:18:07] on the head.

[00:18:08] It is their perception of events.

[00:18:10] Right?

[00:18:10] So as opposed to going in, it's very easy to tell yourself that your service you're offering

[00:18:16] is the Lamborghini of the MSP space or whatever space you're in.

[00:18:22] It's very easy to kind of talk ourselves up to this thing.

[00:18:24] But we have to look at it honestly.

[00:18:25] If you have a Kia, it's not a Lambo.

[00:18:28] Okay?

[00:18:29] We just need to be honest about it.

[00:18:30] Right?

[00:18:31] And to that end, there's lots of people who buy Kias.

[00:18:34] It's a perfectly valid car.

[00:18:37] It's not a Lambo, but they serve very different audiences.

[00:18:40] And so whenever you can really be in touch with your best clients and your best customers,

[00:18:45] hear their perspective from their side of it.

[00:18:47] Hey, you know what?

[00:18:49] You know, you guys aren't the best, honestly.

[00:18:51] Right?

[00:18:51] Like, but the pricing is phenomenal.

[00:18:53] We really are happy with the level of service we get for the pricing that we get.

[00:18:57] But don't go around telling everybody that you're the white glove option because that

[00:19:01] reality is not true.

[00:19:03] You know, take that pressure away and just own who you are.

[00:19:06] Own your service standards.

[00:19:07] Own your things.

[00:19:08] But collect that stuff from the customer perspective.

[00:19:10] If you are that white glove person and your clients love you, go hear it from them.

[00:19:15] We love this element around this thing because this is the thing that makes it white glove

[00:19:20] for us and this makes us happy to pay.

[00:19:21] That is the thing you should be positioning and shouting from the rooftops about because someone

[00:19:25] else is seeing value in it.

[00:19:27] Okay?

[00:19:28] And so from that perspective, if we can collect what our best clients love about us and put

[00:19:33] that facing forward in our marketing, our content, and in our sales conversations, whenever we're

[00:19:37] qualifying, we then have a higher probability of bringing on someone who will stay.

[00:19:43] Right?

[00:19:43] And if they stay in any kind of monthly service provider kind of situation, there's an opportunity

[00:19:50] to get revenue, to build a relationship, to find referrals, to look for new lanes of expansion

[00:19:54] and other ways to serve them.

[00:19:57] But we can do it from a place of like knowing that the minimum is met.

[00:20:00] The minimum expectation is there.

[00:20:02] Okay?

[00:20:02] You can go over and above that.

[00:20:04] But where I find is that people are kind of nervous and kind of scared to go sit in front

[00:20:08] of their customers in that stream and take that feedback, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

[00:20:13] So that way they have a real, real clear view that's connected to reality.

[00:20:19] So that way they can take that and approach their sales and their marketing and their growth from

[00:20:23] that perspective.

[00:20:24] But if you can start there, there's less pressure.

[00:20:26] There's less, I got to figure out a way to sell this.

[00:20:28] You can just say, hey, you know, my best clients, they really love the fact that we're not the

[00:20:33] most expensive.

[00:20:35] They like the fact that we're a mid-tier thing.

[00:20:37] But I'm curious, you might need more than that.

[00:20:38] Do you need the white glove option?

[00:20:41] Right?

[00:20:41] Now we get to have a really beautiful conversation about how we deliver and what their actual

[00:20:45] needs are.

[00:20:46] And then we can maybe come to common ground on it.

[00:20:49] And if we don't come to common ground, that's okay.

[00:20:51] I can go find someone else to talk to because I have a pipeline.

[00:20:54] I have other meetings.

[00:20:55] I have other opportunities in the space, which then makes me less needy.

[00:20:59] And I can be more focused on qualifying for alignment and less on just trying to win.

[00:21:05] Perfectly said.

[00:21:06] So let me go on to like a cousin topic, right?

[00:21:09] Sure.

[00:21:09] Yeah.

[00:21:10] A lot of, especially the smaller guys, right?

[00:21:14] The larger MSPs, maybe they're hiring from the general, like, hey, you're a salesperson.

[00:21:19] We'll train you on what you need to know.

[00:21:21] Maybe you sold a prize before, a little bit different.

[00:21:23] But as long as you have a technology, right?

[00:21:25] So a lot of people think they can take techs or project people and convert them into salespeople.

[00:21:32] I don't know how successful that is, but like, it's been tried.

[00:21:36] And like, I'm curious, especially, you know, like it could be, I'm the owner led sales guy.

[00:21:42] And now I've realized I need to take a step back and plug somebody else.

[00:21:45] And I've never hired the salesperson before.

[00:21:47] What is successful?

[00:21:48] What should I be looking for to find a person to be successful in this role?

[00:21:54] After we'll come a couple of topics we'll get into, which is how do I structure this?

[00:21:58] And like, how do people get paid then in order for it to win, you know, work for both sides?

[00:22:02] Hold off on that.

[00:22:03] Let's talk about where do I start to find the right type of person to plug into this?

[00:22:08] Should I go outside of my business?

[00:22:10] Or should I look inside of my business and try and take somebody and flip their role?

[00:22:15] Oh, man, that's a great question.

[00:22:18] I think a lot of people get kind of hung up, you know, with this idea of like the hunter versus farmer.

[00:22:23] It's a very common sales analogy, right?

[00:22:26] And so then people will start telling themselves, especially if they're still the founder doing the sales, right?

[00:22:30] If they've not done sales coaching or sales training, why would you know how to do this, right?

[00:22:35] It's weird that people think that just because they have donned on a founder hat that they now know how to map to value and ask qualifying questions and being able to close a deal.

[00:22:44] It's a skill set in and of itself.

[00:22:46] That being said, founders can get away with being a little bit wonky, a little bit unpolished, a little nutty professor because it's your baby, right?

[00:22:53] That's going to communicate.

[00:22:55] That's going to build trust.

[00:22:56] Now, a salesperson cannot sell the same way that a founder can because they're not the founder.

[00:23:00] It's not their baby.

[00:23:01] They've not been there since day one, okay?

[00:23:03] So the minute it comes off of the founder, you have to start thinking about it different.

[00:23:07] Now, taking a non-salesperson and making them into your salesperson, a lot of that is going to deal with their curiosity, right?

[00:23:18] I look for curiosity.

[00:23:19] I look for people who have this desire to figure things out because sales is a job with a performance gap inside of it, right?

[00:23:27] And that performance gap is can you find meetings?

[00:23:29] Can you get those meetings to qualify and can you get those meetings closed and across the finish line?

[00:23:33] Not everybody can.

[00:23:35] And it's not like working in Amazon where you just get to scan the thing and stick it in the bucket and your job is done, right?

[00:23:40] There's a gap.

[00:23:41] We have to be able to figure that out.

[00:23:42] So high amounts of drive can be a great way to get across that gap.

[00:23:46] Curiosity is also another great way.

[00:23:48] So if you have very curious people, as long as you can get them to put their curiosity in play, they can be really great salespeople.

[00:23:55] The thing where people go wrong is founders will have a couple of conversations.

[00:24:00] Let's be honest.

[00:24:01] Most founders are not running the same kind of high-volume pipeline and sales conversations that a dedicated salesperson is.

[00:24:09] So what happens is they never really get into the pocket, right?

[00:24:12] They're the, you know, to use a sports analogy, I'm not a big football fan, but it's like the quarterback who's also sometimes the tight end is not going to be as good at either one of those roles because they're not putting full-time and focus on developing the thinking around those roles necessary to perform at a really high level.

[00:24:27] Okay?

[00:24:28] So a founder is wearing 17 other hats.

[00:24:30] And so they're not full-time salesperson.

[00:24:33] And so then, because they're not doing the volume necessary or the consistency with it, there's still that fear of rejection.

[00:24:39] There's still that concern.

[00:24:40] There's still, is this the best use of my time?

[00:24:42] Maybe we should do it another way.

[00:24:44] And so there's lots of like fitful starts and stops, right?

[00:24:48] And you have to run enough volume through the process to really know where you are.

[00:24:52] So if you do five cold calls, you should not have an expectation of booking a meeting, right?

[00:24:57] You should be lucky to even have a conversation with someone with such a small sample size, right?

[00:25:02] This is why salespeople in certain situations are doing 150 dials a day.

[00:25:06] Not because they're talking to 150 people, but because it takes 150 dials to have maybe seven to 10 conversations of which three of those might actually be qualified and be willing to take a meeting.

[00:25:17] So these step-offs as far as volume are significant.

[00:25:20] And if you're not planned for that, it becomes very hard to hire anybody who can come in and have this appropriate expectation of the amount of effort it's going to take to build the pipeline.

[00:25:31] Okay.

[00:25:32] Hold on.

[00:25:33] You said something that I want to like jump right off of.

[00:25:37] Said 150 calls a day to maybe get seven to 10 people to talk to you, which may result in three appointments.

[00:25:43] Yeah.

[00:25:45] I think like, all right, so hold that thought for a second.

[00:25:48] I also saw the other day that emails are 85% more likely to be responded to if there was a follow-up voicemail behind them.

[00:25:58] Agreed.

[00:25:59] Yeah.

[00:25:59] Right.

[00:26:00] So this is where consultants and subject matter experts really come into play because one of the things that my coach always said to me, and I take this to heart and I tell it with everybody, you are going to sell the way you want to be sold.

[00:26:12] Okay.

[00:26:13] So anyone who's aligned the way that you're aligned, this is going to be perfect.

[00:26:18] But if your expectation is that everyone wants to communicate the way that you want to communicate and you're not willing to give anybody any room to communicate in other manners, we're now the salesperson that people don't want to be around.

[00:26:30] We're that try hard.

[00:26:32] We're that try hard.

[00:26:32] We're that know-it-all.

[00:26:32] We're the tight t-shirt guy.

[00:26:34] We're that whole thing because we're not meeting you where you stand.

[00:26:38] We're trying to be like, oh, let's have a meeting, right?

[00:26:41] And so we have to, this is where multi-channel different kind of like taking it out of just the way that you think it should be done and actually testing and running campaigns to see what actually works.

[00:26:52] Because you're entitled to your opinion and your preferences.

[00:26:56] They're only valid for people who share the exact same audience characteristics that you do, right?

[00:27:02] So as, I mean, I'm in my 40s.

[00:27:05] I don't know how old you are, but like as a 40-year-old guy who's been in sales for 20 years, a lot of the things that like are important to brand new salespeople aren't even things I've had to think about in 10 to 15 years, right?

[00:27:18] All right.

[00:27:18] So let me finish some cousin ideas around this theme.

[00:27:22] Heard, yeah.

[00:27:24] So phone calls, as much as people in this sandbox have scorned a phone call.

[00:27:29] It's one of the best ways.

[00:27:30] It works.

[00:27:31] It does.

[00:27:32] Do not start.

[00:27:33] Okay, hold on.

[00:27:35] Phone calls with a real person on the other side or phone calls by an AI dialer tool.

[00:27:42] Yeah.

[00:27:43] You know, the main premise of my book is that when you can broadcast to other people that you are a human,

[00:27:51] we normally get human response in relation to that.

[00:27:54] But when we show up at like a salesperson, which means an AI scripted outreach call, right?

[00:28:01] We just have to understand that people have been hit with all these bad warranty robo calls for so long and so long and so long that anything that sounds like a robo call is going to get that response.

[00:28:10] Right?

[00:28:11] That's just how the human mind works.

[00:28:12] And also, if you're still doing robo calls, you really shouldn't because now there's like rules against it.

[00:28:16] You should not be doing AI-driven robo calls in your outreach.

[00:28:19] You need to have a human on them or else you will get in trouble.

[00:28:22] You should go talk to someone if you have AI robo calls as part of your motion.

[00:28:27] We'll talk about that another time.

[00:28:30] But like we have to be able to cast the widest net possible, right?

[00:28:34] So whenever we first met, we were talking about this idea that one of my teams had a 1400% increase in their demo rate.

[00:28:43] And it was because they were sending four or five emails before they would pick up the phone.

[00:28:48] And by the time they pick up the phone, everyone has already made the decisions that they have made, right?

[00:28:53] We don't need this.

[00:28:54] We don't need this.

[00:28:55] This seems expensive.

[00:28:56] You know, blah, blah, blah.

[00:28:57] Whereas when you can pick up the phone and lead with a phone call, hey, we've not spoken before.

[00:29:01] Is it okay if I tell you why I'm reaching out?

[00:29:03] I'll keep it brief and you can hang up on me at the end of it if that's how you feel about it.

[00:29:08] Okay.

[00:29:09] Text messages.

[00:29:11] Great question, right?

[00:29:13] There's a lot of people.

[00:29:16] First of all, personal preferences matter.

[00:29:18] I hate getting a text message on my phone for an offer.

[00:29:22] Now, if I know you and I've given you my cell phone like you personally, fine.

[00:29:27] Okay.

[00:29:27] But now with all the scraping that's going on and everything, our cell phones are just like any other channel of communication.

[00:29:34] And personally, I'm not a fan.

[00:29:36] I respond to cold emails, even if they're garbage.

[00:29:38] I respond to bad DM pitches, even if they're garbage.

[00:29:41] I return cold calls, right?

[00:29:43] If you send me a text message with a big, like, great American novel of a pitch that's written as like 17 sentences all like lumped together and everything and I can't even skim it.

[00:29:53] Like, you're not going to get a response.

[00:29:55] And then when you follow up badly with like, well, you're probably going to get some heat from me.

[00:30:00] Okay.

[00:30:01] It doesn't mean that that person shouldn't be using that motion.

[00:30:04] It just means you have to be okay with the fact that no matter what communication channel you choose to go down, some people aren't going to like it.

[00:30:12] And you can choose for that to take you off course.

[00:30:14] So you can choose to not be concerned about it.

[00:30:16] Do it with high quality.

[00:30:18] Don't be an idiot about it and just keep moving forward.

[00:30:22] LinkedIn messages.

[00:30:23] LinkedIn messages to me are very similar.

[00:30:26] It's like a kind of like a middle ground between email and the phone call because you can be slightly more personal.

[00:30:33] You can follow up.

[00:30:34] The thing that people slip up with is that with all these documented versions of, you know, engagement, call me next week.

[00:30:42] Cool.

[00:30:43] Don't show up two days later because you have forgotten the timeline and you think it's going to be okay because it's all right there in one thread.

[00:30:51] They can see just accurately.

[00:30:53] It's Wednesday.

[00:30:54] I told this guy next week.

[00:30:55] Why?

[00:30:56] Right?

[00:30:56] So just pay more attention.

[00:30:59] Listen to what they're saying.

[00:31:00] Follow up when they ask you to follow up, especially whenever it's documented.

[00:31:03] Email is documented.

[00:31:04] A phone call or a human conversation isn't going to like resonate in that same way as like, well, I told him next week and he followed up on Thursday.

[00:31:13] Right?

[00:31:13] It's just, you know, a phone call, a human moment doesn't get cataloged the same way that like an email, a text message or a DM does.

[00:31:21] Video content.

[00:31:22] Video message.

[00:31:23] Video message.

[00:31:24] Video messaging is hugely powerful.

[00:31:26] I've got a good camera here.

[00:31:27] I've got some good lighting here.

[00:31:28] I spend a lot of time doing video follow-ups to people because I want to control the tone.

[00:31:33] I want to recap.

[00:31:34] Well, recapping is one of the mastery skills of being a sales professional because when you can recap, you're proving that you've listened and you were understanding.

[00:31:41] And so a lot of people use it in the prospecting motion.

[00:31:44] Right?

[00:31:44] They'll say, hey, George, we've never spoken before.

[00:31:46] I left you a voicemail but wanted to send over a quick video.

[00:31:50] My name's John.

[00:31:51] I am a human, not an AI guy.

[00:31:53] I'd love to have a quick conversation with you.

[00:31:55] See if you're dealing with these concerns if you already have some time next week.

[00:31:59] The problem is that people get bogged down, right?

[00:32:01] Because there's pressure with video.

[00:32:03] You've got to look good and sound good and how's my hair and all this other stuff, right?

[00:32:06] So it can slow you down a little bit until you become really practiced at it.

[00:32:10] But that's honestly everything, right?

[00:32:12] I've seen a salesperson take three hours to go find one person to call, figure out what they're going to say, and then pick up the phone and call them because they don't have enough practiced reps of doing those actions.

[00:32:23] So, of course, you're going to be slow in the beginning.

[00:32:25] This is all new.

[00:32:29] How many times, and maybe this is part of the art or science, you'll tell me, how many times should I be following them?

[00:32:39] Like before I decide, you know what?

[00:32:41] Maybe now's not the right time.

[00:32:43] Let me change, put them into the slow lane and we'll circle back to these guys at a different time.

[00:32:49] Is that, you know, the Jay McBain's of the world get up on stage and say, 28 interactions required before somebody will do business with you.

[00:32:59] And I'm like, 28?

[00:33:00] He's like, well, that could be, you know, social media message.

[00:33:04] That could be LinkedIn, you know, something in the thread.

[00:33:08] It could be, you know, YouTube, a webinar, right?

[00:33:11] He's like, yeah, but I was like, that's a lot of touch points.

[00:33:14] That's a lot of touch points.

[00:33:15] I think, oh, we're going to get deep in this, right?

[00:33:19] There might be some shots fired, but I think that there's a big difference between how a sales professional views their sales conversations and how people from marketing view sales conversations, right?

[00:33:28] So people who come from marketing typically know that there's nurturing, there's campaigns, there's other stuff.

[00:33:35] So when they're in that conversation with them, they're not trying to create the same amount of urgency that a sales professional is, right?

[00:33:41] A sales professional is trying to build trust and build urgency because they have in the back of their head the knowledge that they might not be able to get back into another meaningful conversation with this person.

[00:33:49] So let's make the most that we can about this conversation.

[00:33:54] And it's funny, I thought about this for years.

[00:33:56] It's been like a thing that gets me into arguments with my friends who were in marketing.

[00:34:01] And then a friend of mine actually took a job at a sales enablement company.

[00:34:04] And part of their interview process was you had to interview with the CEO who was a sales professional way before he built his company.

[00:34:12] So he does the role play.

[00:34:14] And he's a solid salesperson, right?

[00:34:16] But he comes from marketing.

[00:34:17] And so the guy at the end of it goes, oh, that's interesting.

[00:34:20] How long have you been in marketing?

[00:34:21] And the guy goes, my entire adult life.

[00:34:23] Why?

[00:34:23] And he goes, because you did not run this conversation like a salesperson does.

[00:34:27] And so this is a really good friend of mine.

[00:34:29] We've done content together.

[00:34:30] We did a show during the pandemic to kind of like just kind of document our journey through that process.

[00:34:34] And I told him this over the years of being really close friends with him of like, man, like you're pretty good at this.

[00:34:40] But like this is a this is part of this that you're missing out on.

[00:34:43] He's like, no, I got it.

[00:34:45] No, I got it.

[00:34:45] And so he calls me.

[00:34:46] So can you believe this guy?

[00:34:48] I'm like, I feel like we've been talking about this topic for like a decade now.

[00:34:51] And you're just now able to hear it.

[00:34:53] But so 20, I mean, I guess.

[00:34:57] Right.

[00:34:58] There are people who love that idea because it kind of creates this like hope of like, well, if we just keep following up, eventually they're going to say yes.

[00:35:04] And which is not just not true and not valid.

[00:35:07] Right.

[00:35:07] Because you can have one conversation.

[00:35:10] Use it well.

[00:35:12] Build time.

[00:35:12] Build trust.

[00:35:13] Qualify deeply.

[00:35:14] Understand their needs.

[00:35:16] Understand their perspectives on their needs.

[00:35:17] Understand their perspectives on their partners and who they work with.

[00:35:20] And then you should be able to leave that knowing whether or not this requires more of your relationship time or whether or not this is not a fit for you.

[00:35:28] And you should put it down and go back to prospecting to find the next person who is more aligned with how you do it.

[00:35:33] But lots of people don't want to take it that deep.

[00:35:35] And so then what happens is they feel this kind of weird need to try to like always be always available for everyone and always be following up whenever it's you can know at the end of a conversation.

[00:35:45] Right.

[00:35:46] Hey, George, we've had a good conversation.

[00:35:47] I think there might be more to talk about.

[00:35:49] Should we keep talking about this?

[00:35:51] There's a big difference between someone who's like, yeah, follow up sometime next week, which is like a week follow up step.

[00:35:58] You should be qualifying and kind of pressing down on that a little bit.

[00:36:01] Now, help me understand when you say next week, are we talking about like Thursday, Friday or are you thinking from Monday, Tuesday?

[00:36:06] Right.

[00:36:06] We can now get some specificity and I'm kind of helping them kind of clue this in.

[00:36:10] But if they don't want to get to that detail level, they're probably not that excited.

[00:36:16] Hmm.

[00:36:17] Hmm.

[00:36:18] Okay.

[00:36:18] So you're saying if you didn't do a really good job when you had them in front of you or on a call or on a video or in person, whatever it is, and you left the door open at the end.

[00:36:30] This is where this magic question of how much follow up should I be doing?

[00:36:34] Here's the problem.

[00:36:36] A lot of people in the sandbox, zero follow up.

[00:36:40] No, for sure.

[00:36:42] Yeah.

[00:36:42] And like, that's bad.

[00:36:43] I can.

[00:36:44] I'm not a sales professional.

[00:36:45] I can tell you no follow up is horrible.

[00:36:49] No follow up is bad for sure.

[00:36:51] One hundred percent.

[00:36:52] But if you're.

[00:36:55] There's a difference when you've been doing the job for a while and you know it right like every sales professional who has a who has a goal and has a number and has heat on them to hit these goals.

[00:37:05] They've done enough reps that they know the difference between like the put on.

[00:37:09] This all looks good and everything being the same.

[00:37:12] This all sounds really amazing.

[00:37:13] Right.

[00:37:14] And they're being too complimentary.

[00:37:15] They're talking you up too much.

[00:37:17] And when you've been in the seat for a while, you know to go tackle that.

[00:37:20] Hold on a second.

[00:37:21] What do you like so much?

[00:37:22] Help me understand.

[00:37:23] You know, because we're just like everybody else.

[00:37:25] Right.

[00:37:26] No, you're not.

[00:37:27] And now there's room to really understand.

[00:37:28] Are they are they are they really feeling that way?

[00:37:31] Or are they telling you what they think you want to hear?

[00:37:34] Right.

[00:37:34] Because that's really what the sales stigma comes down to is people are so concerned about the pushback of sales salespeople, the follow up, that hard press, the hard close and everything.

[00:37:42] They will lie to us just to save time and get away.

[00:37:45] Right.

[00:37:46] And sometimes they're not even aware that they're doing this to themselves in that conversation.

[00:37:51] Right.

[00:37:51] My sales coach would always kind of talk about like you've got to be able to find the time wasters.

[00:37:56] Right.

[00:37:56] And he kind of talked about them with this kind of pejorative element of like.

[00:38:00] Right.

[00:38:00] Like, don't hang out with time wasters.

[00:38:02] You're wasting your time and everything.

[00:38:03] Sometimes these people are just operating in that fashion of like, oh, yeah, this sounds good.

[00:38:08] I'll let you know when really it's like I've already made my decision.

[00:38:11] It's a no.

[00:38:11] I just don't want to tell you because it might lead to a fight or it might lead to salesy follow up that I don't want to deal with.

[00:38:17] Hold on.

[00:38:17] If the answer is no.

[00:38:19] But if I tell you, no, you're not going to like it's it prevents the follow up.

[00:38:23] No.

[00:38:24] I don't know.

[00:38:25] I mean, you're you're a direct person, George.

[00:38:28] Right.

[00:38:28] So you being a direct person, this is the other part we spend a lot of time talking about the personality of yourself, as well as the personality of the people that you're talking to has a profound impact on what you can expect inside of those conversations.

[00:38:42] Right.

[00:38:42] So you being a direct person, you don't have a problem being like, hey, do you want this or not?

[00:38:47] Do you want this or not?

[00:38:48] Right.

[00:38:48] And that is going to put some pressure on some other personality types, you know.

[00:38:52] And so it's not really something that you can wholly own and it's not something that they wholly own.

[00:38:57] It's about that conversation, about meeting them where they are and doing little things.

[00:39:01] So that way we're reducing the risk that we get lied to from a state of like trying to keep themselves safe.

[00:39:07] Oh, OK.

[00:39:07] Fair.

[00:39:08] All right.

[00:39:08] So I just I go out there.

[00:39:11] Maybe I have some help.

[00:39:12] I find somebody who I'm going to plug into the sales seat.

[00:39:16] You know, like how much time is the right amount of time for them to figure out what's going on?

[00:39:20] Right.

[00:39:20] Because like, by the way, it's expensive to hire people and not cheap.

[00:39:24] I mean, most companies, the highest thing on their expense list is people.

[00:39:29] Heard.

[00:39:30] Yeah.

[00:39:30] So like.

[00:39:32] You know, 90 day probationary, we hear everywhere.

[00:39:35] Right.

[00:39:35] It's like, you know, status quo.

[00:39:37] Right.

[00:39:37] And every employment agreement, I guess, you know, unless you change.

[00:39:41] Like, is 90 days enough time?

[00:39:43] Is it six months?

[00:39:44] Is it four months?

[00:39:45] Is it 12 months?

[00:39:45] Like, what is the correct feeling out period to make sure like the person actually understands

[00:39:52] a gig and can do it?

[00:39:54] That's a great question.

[00:39:55] Right.

[00:39:55] And it used to be a lot harder.

[00:39:57] And some people choose to still kind of thrive in the ambiguity, which makes it difficult.

[00:40:01] But this is where one of the big shifts is starting to show up in sales.

[00:40:05] You can be results driven or you can be process driven when it comes to your sales.

[00:40:10] Right.

[00:40:10] And so results driven means, you know what?

[00:40:12] I'm not coming to meetings.

[00:40:13] You don't get to manage me.

[00:40:15] Let's just like, I'm going to go hit my number.

[00:40:17] Okay.

[00:40:17] And some founders love that.

[00:40:20] They love that idea until they start to be concerned around like, oh my God, are they

[00:40:24] really doing anything and stuff like this?

[00:40:25] Right.

[00:40:26] And so those are the people to where you see lots of activity around the deadlines, around

[00:40:31] the end of the quarters, end of the reporting periods.

[00:40:33] And they always kind of seem to get it, but it seems like lots of like this kind of

[00:40:37] boom bust the situation.

[00:40:38] Okay.

[00:40:39] If you're doing it well, you should be able to assign your new sales rep activities that

[00:40:45] you know are going to lead them towards meetings, which leads towards qualified opportunities,

[00:40:50] which then leads to deals in the pipeline, which then leads to deals that are closed.

[00:40:54] And so activities create the change.

[00:40:57] Okay.

[00:40:58] I used to think, and my coach used to beat me over the head about this stuff.

[00:41:02] If you're waiting to feel motivated to do your outreach, you're never actually going

[00:41:05] to get motivated to do it.

[00:41:06] But if you just choose to do it, it's like going to the gym.

[00:41:08] You're going to be glad you did it once it's done.

[00:41:10] So just do it.

[00:41:11] That is a great, and I'm going to borrow that one.

[00:41:14] That's good.

[00:41:15] That's good.

[00:41:16] If you have to just like force yourself to get to the activity, you're not going to the

[00:41:20] gym.

[00:41:21] You're not consistent.

[00:41:22] But if you keep it as a cadence, then you're going to get, it's going to be like muscle

[00:41:25] memory.

[00:41:27] 100%.

[00:41:27] Right.

[00:41:27] And being a martial arts guy and being part of service military, whenever I finally found

[00:41:32] someone who was talking about it in this way of like, just do actions and actions will

[00:41:37] lead you towards the goal.

[00:41:38] But then let's also think about the quality of those actions.

[00:41:41] And then let's also measure the outcomes.

[00:41:43] Right.

[00:41:43] Because you can go to lots of events.

[00:41:46] Right.

[00:41:46] And you know salespeople and I know salespeople who make the majority of their money off of

[00:41:50] events.

[00:41:51] And we also know salespeople who go to events and never get a qualified opportunity in their

[00:41:55] pipeline ever, in which case that action and that activity along with that cost might not

[00:42:00] be the best way for you to be funding your salesperson to go source meetings.

[00:42:04] Okay.

[00:42:05] But sourcing a meeting, there's any number of ways to do it.

[00:42:08] Right.

[00:42:08] You can cold call.

[00:42:09] You can do DMs.

[00:42:10] You can do LinkedIn outreach.

[00:42:11] You can post content.

[00:42:13] You can run an event.

[00:42:13] You can do any number of ways.

[00:42:15] Right.

[00:42:16] It's just about doing it consistently enough that you can then be honest with the results

[00:42:22] and the outcome of that effort.

[00:42:24] Because if you're lying to yourself, oh, they don't get it.

[00:42:26] Oh, they don't get it.

[00:42:27] At the, I mean, after enough reps, we have to be honest with ourselves that we're the common

[00:42:31] denominator in those conversations.

[00:42:33] So the answer is variable.

[00:42:36] Mileage varies, right?

[00:42:37] Mileage varies.

[00:42:38] But activity, like if, if, if you bring on a salesperson and you're like, just go get

[00:42:44] it champ.

[00:42:45] That's going to be fitful.

[00:42:47] You're going to have more losses than you do wins.

[00:42:49] You're going to have lots of churn.

[00:42:50] You're going to be irritated at them because they're going to be off doing God knows what.

[00:42:54] Whereas if you can say, cool, here's how I do it.

[00:42:57] Here's how I've been able to source meetings.

[00:42:59] Let's try this.

[00:43:00] Here's some activity counts that we're going to be agreed on daily, weekly, and then monthly.

[00:43:05] And then we're just going to test and see, does doing this amount of volume of activities

[00:43:10] lead to the number of meetings that we need?

[00:43:12] Does it lead to the pipeline coverage that we're looking for?

[00:43:14] If not, let's make some meaningful adjustments.

[00:43:17] Okay.

[00:43:17] Okay.

[00:43:18] So that's where.

[00:43:19] I like that because that you can measure.

[00:43:22] You can measure that.

[00:43:23] Absolutely.

[00:43:23] If it's working or not.

[00:43:25] For sure.

[00:43:26] Like, it's like, although I was the opposite, I was the calculator kid in the math class,

[00:43:31] but it's like, oh, show your work.

[00:43:32] How did you get to this answer?

[00:43:33] Oh, okay.

[00:43:34] Well, I just, here, I got the answer.

[00:43:36] It's like, well, you can't show me how you got that answer.

[00:43:38] And that's, that's exactly what I call it.

[00:43:40] Right.

[00:43:40] I tell, I tell every sales leader, every salesperson that I talk to show your work, right?

[00:43:46] Put it in the CRM, broadcast your meetings, talk about your meeting cadence, talk about

[00:43:50] the activities you're doing to set meetings.

[00:43:52] Because if you don't do these things, you're then going to spend more time in your meetings

[00:43:56] validating and justifying why you're on the payroll in the first place.

[00:44:00] Show your work by doing actions and activities, which puts us like in this proactive stance

[00:44:06] that I was talking about a second ago.

[00:44:07] Right?

[00:44:08] I love that.

[00:44:09] Okay.

[00:44:10] What do you think?

[00:44:11] Now, maybe this is for a slightly larger organization than I just hired my first person, but the argument

[00:44:17] between, well, you know, like you're, you're asking the person to do too much from an activity

[00:44:23] standpoint.

[00:44:24] So like, I need to put somebody in front of them in order to get their calendar filled because

[00:44:29] the closed seat and the prospecting meeting booking seat don't align.

[00:44:34] Do you follow, do you agree with this idea or is it just baloney?

[00:44:40] Can you ask your question again?

[00:44:42] I'm not sure.

[00:44:43] Separation of the activity.

[00:44:45] Ah, okay.

[00:44:46] Yeah.

[00:44:46] So this is going full cycle.

[00:44:49] Yeah.

[00:44:50] I need to put somebody in front of you so that I can get your appointment book filled so

[00:44:53] that you can show up to the meetings, get your part done.

[00:44:57] And then maybe even, let me go a step further.

[00:44:59] What, when does that account turn into account management versus?

[00:45:03] Ooh, it's a great question.

[00:45:05] Phenomenal questions.

[00:45:07] ABC, if you would.

[00:45:08] So here's what we have found to be true.

[00:45:11] Full cycle has the best outcomes when it comes to conversion rate as well as keep rate,

[00:45:18] right?

[00:45:18] Because they, they spend time to earn the meeting.

[00:45:20] They're going to spend time to qualifying it.

[00:45:22] Well, they're going to then make sure that this person is going to stay for a while because

[00:45:25] of all the effort into it and everything.

[00:45:27] So we see the highest and best outcomes there.

[00:45:30] But what happens is that if your salesperson is also doing account management, they're going

[00:45:35] to hit a ceiling as far as how much productivity time they have.

[00:45:39] So if they have to do account management after the sale, you have to know that they're going

[00:45:43] to run out of time, right?

[00:45:45] So if you don't have kind of like a, like a tapering off impact, right?

[00:45:50] When you, right, and this kind of looks like it's your book of business versus, hey, thanks

[00:45:54] for being the salesperson.

[00:45:55] Success and support is going to handle it after the sale.

[00:45:57] It's very different.

[00:45:59] And you can't expect one in the culture that is the other one, if that makes sense, right?

[00:46:04] Your culture is going to be tied to how you need to get it done, which is going to be

[00:46:07] tied to the people that you bring on, which is going to be tied to the outcomes around

[00:46:10] it.

[00:46:10] So full cycle, let them own that book of business.

[00:46:13] And if you want them to be, if you want them to be involved in customer service or customer

[00:46:16] or account management after the sale, you need to pay them recurring commissions.

[00:46:20] Because if we're only paying them when they close deals, we're not really incentivizing

[00:46:24] them to care after the deal is closed.

[00:46:26] So you have to build your comp and your expectations fundamentally very different if there is account

[00:46:31] management after the sale, because those people are going to get calls from these clients and

[00:46:35] prospects, which is going to take up the time that should be used for prospecting.

[00:46:39] So that's why like the SDR, BDR role came around originally, just like just top of funnel

[00:46:44] research, validating all these other things.

[00:46:47] But with AI and everything that's shifting, a lot of people are saying that the SDR role

[00:46:52] is fundamentally kind of dead, which I think it's changing.

[00:46:55] I think people will need less SDRs than they have in the past, but I still think that the

[00:47:00] role is super helpful depending upon is account management part of it?

[00:47:04] What do you need the salesperson to be doing?

[00:47:06] And how much follow-up are they doing?

[00:47:08] Right?

[00:47:09] Like these things are all tied together and it's all tied to the culture of the organization.

[00:47:14] Right?

[00:47:14] If the sales leaders like follow up until they block you, don't take no for an answer.

[00:47:19] We're not really going to have many people taking a consultative stance on their sales

[00:47:23] conversations.

[00:47:24] They're going to take high pressure stances because that's what they're being fed by their

[00:47:28] boss who controls their paycheck.

[00:47:31] So it's a complex problem, but all of these things are tied together.

[00:47:35] And it's not as modular as people want to make it out to be.

[00:47:38] Okay.

[00:47:39] All right.

[00:47:39] So, you know, from a, and again, there's this funny, like a lot of the, you know, everything

[00:47:45] we're talking about is ubiquitous, right?

[00:47:47] You can apply it to almost every business.

[00:47:49] However, you get the MSP, you get the vendor who sells the MSP, right?

[00:47:52] So this is like a SaaS company.

[00:47:53] This is the MSP who consumes the SaaS products.

[00:47:55] And all of a sudden we get this, I don't know, train track thing where they're on this

[00:48:00] side.

[00:48:00] We don't like this guy.

[00:48:01] They're like, well, you need those guys who are on your business.

[00:48:03] So like, hold on a quick second here.

[00:48:05] Like at the end of the day, you know, cadence is, is, is mileage varies and I'm sure it applies

[00:48:11] differently to every business, but people in the account management seat often get compensated

[00:48:18] at least the way I've seen it historically by net growth, right?

[00:48:22] Hey, I've got them to do more, buy more, expand more.

[00:48:26] And now I'm getting compensated on the more while I'm still doing the other part, right?

[00:48:30] Cause it's still gotta be here in order to do that.

[00:48:33] Like my incentivization is to find out how to get you to buy more things.

[00:48:38] Absolutely.

[00:48:39] For sure.

[00:48:40] Is that the correct methodology for account management?

[00:48:44] So man, I mean, correct is a hard label for me to get because every business is so different,

[00:48:49] right?

[00:48:49] But, um, on a project I'm on right now, they had support, but they didn't really have

[00:48:53] success, right?

[00:48:54] Success is proactive account management, looking for expansion, looking for, you know, whatever

[00:48:58] is important to the organization.

[00:49:00] So they had, so they had support through a ticketing system that people didn't really

[00:49:04] want to use, but they didn't really have proactive account management.

[00:49:07] So during the, I mean, we're still working on this project.

[00:49:10] And so we moved someone from sales side over to account management because this person was

[00:49:15] a good salesperson.

[00:49:16] They were hitting their numbers, but a lot of the time they were bogged down, feeling

[00:49:19] compelled to help people.

[00:49:21] They were coming back to them because they needed help.

[00:49:23] Well, if he's feeling compelled to do that and does a good job of it, people seem to keep

[00:49:27] coming back to him.

[00:49:28] He would be a really solid person to lead our proactive account management.

[00:49:32] And so from there, we figured out some, some metrics that were going to be important to

[00:49:36] the organization.

[00:49:38] And we're, we're trialing those metrics inside the role now, because this is all fairly new.

[00:49:43] And then after this first full quarter, we're going to sit down and look at the goals and

[00:49:48] kind of measure and assess, are these reasonable goals?

[00:49:50] Do they need to be adjusted down?

[00:49:51] Does this create time for you to go be present with the people on your team to give them the

[00:49:55] help that they need?

[00:49:56] Um, because goals need to be adjusted to what is reasonable inside the, inside the working

[00:50:03] time there.

[00:50:04] It's very easy to go around and just start trying to assign reps more, more actions or

[00:50:10] I'm sorry, more activity, right?

[00:50:11] Well, suppose $150, you don't want to make $170.

[00:50:15] You don't want it bad enough and everything like, let's be reasonable.

[00:50:18] Like grinding $150 in a day is more than most people are ever going to do, right?

[00:50:23] Like most people can't even fathom what that kind of like day looks like and they shouldn't

[00:50:28] have to, right?

[00:50:29] But we also shouldn't challenge salespeople whenever they're like, Hey, I'm doing all

[00:50:34] the actions and activity.

[00:50:35] I'm not getting to where I need to be.

[00:50:36] And I'm not really sure what to do.

[00:50:38] We need to have a different response other than, well, I guess you don't want it bad enough,

[00:50:42] which is what salespeople are normally told in those moments when they need some help.

[00:50:45] Boiler room, right?

[00:50:47] Oh yeah, for sure.

[00:50:48] That's a great movie.

[00:50:49] Great movie.

[00:50:51] Let's talk real quick while in the last few minutes here about your workshop at Community

[00:50:56] Minds, right?

[00:50:56] So it's not a 45 minute death by PowerPoint.

[00:51:00] We're trying to get across a topic and actually work through it so that they walk out and say,

[00:51:06] Hey, you know, like I can't tell you how many times there's, I don't know, hundreds or even

[00:51:09] a thousand events.

[00:51:10] I took notes, took notes, took notes.

[00:51:12] I never even saw the notes after I took the notes, right?

[00:51:14] Like, Oh yeah, I've done that too.

[00:51:16] But anyway, tell us what your workshops about at Community Minds.

[00:51:19] So the workshop is really, I mean, it's mostly this conversation in a longer format, hoping

[00:51:25] that people can learn from it.

[00:51:27] Right.

[00:51:27] But we get so bogged down and trying to move fast, trying to move fast, trying to move fast

[00:51:32] because we're trying to do all these actions and activities.

[00:51:34] And then what happens when we're moving that fast?

[00:51:36] The people that we're trying to build relationships with and trust with are not going to feel like

[00:51:41] we're trying to build trust or trying to build a relationship.

[00:51:44] They're going to feel like they're just being sold.

[00:51:46] Okay.

[00:51:47] And so with more options in the space and more content in the space, people have more options.

[00:51:51] They have more information.

[00:51:52] And also because of how the internet is working now, they want a view of what that working

[00:51:57] relationship is going to be like together because they're not just paying for tech.

[00:52:00] They're paying for service.

[00:52:01] They're paying for the opportunity to come share with you on those quarterly business reviews,

[00:52:05] what's working and what isn't and what adjustments need to be made.

[00:52:08] And if they don't want to get into a sales conversation with you, they don't want to be

[00:52:13] someone who's going to have to come to these account management meetings with you.

[00:52:17] So the goal is to slow things down through doing better discovery, deeper discovery.

[00:52:22] So that way we can qualify for the most common objections so that way we can perform better.

[00:52:27] But then really the next level past that is looking for the things that make you different

[00:52:31] so you can position around those things on the sales conversation, right?

[00:52:35] If you know you're the small guy and you've lost some deals because you weren't the big guy,

[00:52:40] right?

[00:52:40] Hey, thank you for your time and attention on this, George.

[00:52:42] We really appreciate you.

[00:52:43] However, we decided to go with your competitor company, ABC, because they're slightly larger

[00:52:47] and we think that they're going to have better service levels.

[00:52:50] Cool.

[00:52:50] That didn't work out well with CrowdStrike.

[00:52:54] You want to point that out?

[00:52:56] So recent of an example, it's like, oh, you never get fired for going with Cisco.

[00:52:59] You never get fired for going for IBM.

[00:53:01] Well, they went with the Yankees.

[00:53:02] They went with CrowdStrike.

[00:53:03] And then like, you know, the biggest...

[00:53:05] Absolutely.

[00:53:05] All the time happened.

[00:53:07] So if you know that that's a thing that can happen and you've been hit in the face with

[00:53:11] it afterwards, let's move it up and have a conversation about it.

[00:53:15] Because some clients love the fact that you're the small player, right?

[00:53:18] It's the reason why they stay with you because they get individualized service as opposed to

[00:53:22] just being a number on a spreadsheet.

[00:53:24] But if they don't see value in that, we're choosing to try to develop a relationship with

[00:53:30] someone who doesn't value the things that make us different.

[00:53:32] Why would we try to do that?

[00:53:34] Right?

[00:53:34] Like, it doesn't really make a ton of sense, but we just get...

[00:53:38] We stop thinking with that strategic mind.

[00:53:41] We just start thinking with the urgent mind.

[00:53:43] And then it's like, hey, do you want to buy this?

[00:53:44] Do you want to buy this?

[00:53:44] Do you want to buy this?

[00:53:45] Let me go find someone who's going to buy this.

[00:53:46] We stop asking questions.

[00:53:48] We stop qualifying.

[00:53:51] So another lesson from my sales coach, the harder you qualify, the easier your life is

[00:53:56] in delivery.

[00:53:59] Ah, so that any subscription-based business, and I would argue MSB is a subscription-based

[00:54:05] business if you can't go the right way.

[00:54:07] Sales and growth is great, but the kryptonite to that conversation is churn and cancellation.

[00:54:13] Absolutely.

[00:54:13] If everyone is churning, like let's say you have a six-month minimum agreement, right?

[00:54:19] If everyone is churning in month seven, and I've seen this, right?

[00:54:23] I work with a lot of lead gen people, because talk about oversetting expectations and not

[00:54:27] being able to fulfill.

[00:54:28] Like the lead gen space is filled with these people.

[00:54:30] But if you know you can only deliver 10 leads per month, and someone is asking for 50, let's

[00:54:38] just be honest.

[00:54:38] We're not going to be able to hit that expectation, right?

[00:54:41] And then if we're just assuming that 10 is what everybody needs, we're not even going

[00:54:44] to ask those kinds of questions, right?

[00:54:46] So we have to slow all the way down.

[00:54:48] What do you really want?

[00:54:50] What's important to you?

[00:54:51] And then let's make sure that I can do those things.

[00:54:53] Because if so, you stay on and then you stay.

[00:54:56] But some of these lead gen people, I had this guy try to sell me on this idea.

[00:55:00] John, we're so good at what we do in the lead gen space.

[00:55:02] Most of our clients cancel on us after 90 months because we've sent them so many leads.

[00:55:07] And I was like, does that line work on people?

[00:55:10] And he was so floored.

[00:55:11] He goes, what do you mean?

[00:55:13] And I was like, what you just told me is you generate so much like dust and chaos for

[00:55:19] your clients, waste a bunch of their time.

[00:55:21] So they can't even keep up with it.

[00:55:23] And then you get fired.

[00:55:25] Why are you bragging about this outcome?

[00:55:27] Right?

[00:55:28] I am with you 10,000%.

[00:55:30] All right.

[00:55:31] So if this conversation doesn't like connect with you, which by the way, still today, I

[00:55:37] can go look at every survey that came out this year from all the companies that we all

[00:55:41] know about.

[00:55:41] And this is still a top three conversation.

[00:55:44] I bet you.

[00:55:45] I bet you because I've seen them.

[00:55:47] So this is a workshop and John's doing two sessions of this topic and a more, I'm sure

[00:55:52] he has a cadence to it.

[00:55:53] I might actually sit in on it this time because, you know, I'm definitely tied in.

[00:55:58] We've talked to John a little bit, you know, here and there in between.

[00:56:01] You should check out MSP Community Minds in Denver.

[00:56:04] By the way, we're not charging you.

[00:56:05] Like John, I know how much he charges.

[00:56:08] This time has a cost to it.

[00:56:13] He's giving you workshop time.

[00:56:15] Literally, you have to pay for this.

[00:56:16] So what are you waiting for?

[00:56:18] Tom, it's free as an MSP.

[00:56:20] You will come.

[00:56:21] We'll feed you.

[00:56:22] We will entertain you and we will educate you.

[00:56:23] John's going to be one of those education points.

[00:56:26] John, if somebody wanted to find more, by the way, MSPinitiative.com Community Minds.

[00:56:30] But if you want to learn more about John and what he does when he's not doing workshops

[00:56:34] with MSP Community Minds, where can they find more information about you, John, and your company?

[00:56:38] Thank you so much, man.

[00:56:39] But before I do that, I would love to give you guys just a little bit more compliment.

[00:56:43] If you're watching this and you're on the fence, I go to seminars, right?

[00:56:46] To me, they've been one of the most impactful ways for me to level up is by putting myself

[00:56:51] surrounded with people who are smarter than me and know more than I do.

[00:56:54] And I also know what it's like to go to some of these events and there's that crowded hall

[00:56:58] and you know you're going to get, you know, you feel bad about going over to grab the pen

[00:57:02] or the nice little journal and stuff like this because like you also then feel compelled to sign up

[00:57:06] for a demo that you don't care about and everything.

[00:57:08] This is not that.

[00:57:09] And I know people talk about it, but this is fundamentally a very different type of event, right?

[00:57:16] The vendors were sitting in my session because they were interested in it, right?

[00:57:20] And afterwards when we had conversations, it was just human to human.

[00:57:24] Like you're good at what you do.

[00:57:25] We're good at what we do.

[00:57:26] There was no high pressure selling and the feedback opportunity to kind of talk to George

[00:57:31] and his team about what you want to see as far as improvement in the next ones blew my mind, right?

[00:57:37] He was up in the front of it and you and I not talking about this, but you were like,

[00:57:41] how do we make this better?

[00:57:42] How do we make this better?

[00:57:43] Because you were talking about how many events there are in this space.

[00:57:46] And you know that the pressure of budgeting and time and everything.

[00:57:50] So that need to make it what these people needed to be, I felt when it was just very, very cool.

[00:57:57] So if you're on the fence because you're not really sure about events like this or seminars,

[00:58:01] you should go.

[00:58:02] You should absolutely go.

[00:58:03] It's absolutely free.

[00:58:04] I'm going to be there.

[00:58:05] George and his team are phenomenal.

[00:58:06] The other people who were presenting are experts at what they do.

[00:58:11] And it's not going to be super salesy.

[00:58:13] So come hang out.

[00:58:15] If you want to learn more about me, my company is called adaptedgrowth.com.

[00:58:18] And so that's our website.

[00:58:19] You can go there.

[00:58:20] You can learn about me.

[00:58:21] A couple of years ago, I wrote a book.

[00:58:23] It's called Selling from Scratch.

[00:58:24] This is the copy of it.

[00:58:25] It's on Amazon.

[00:58:26] We also have the audio book on Audible.

[00:58:28] So if you prefer to listen to your books, it's there.

[00:58:30] And then if you were interested in this, right?

[00:58:33] Because you're attached to revenue, you're working in an organization that does revenue.

[00:58:37] I have a free Slack community that has about 215 people in it.

[00:58:40] And everyone is either an entrepreneur, a marketer, a salesperson, or somewhere attached to revenue.

[00:58:46] But it's all rad people.

[00:58:47] So if you'd like to come hang out and be around other people that are talking about these topics,

[00:58:51] because it takes time for the perspectives to shift, you're more than welcome to come hang out.

[00:58:56] Send me an email.

[00:58:57] Find me on LinkedIn.

[00:58:58] I'm John Small Mountain on LinkedIn because there's a lot of hills.

[00:59:01] But if you look up John Small Mountain, you'll find me.

[00:59:03] We can get you an invite to it.

[00:59:05] Awesome.

[00:59:06] John, I can't wait to spend more time with you and pick your brain a little bit.

[00:59:10] But Denver, right?

[00:59:11] Hopefully, you can get people to the right place at the right time.

[00:59:14] 25th, 26th.

[00:59:15] MSBinitiative.com.

[00:59:17] Under Community Minds.

[00:59:18] Guys, this is what we're doing.

[00:59:20] You asked us for help on this topic that you haven't been able to crack for 20 years.

[00:59:25] 24 years.

[00:59:27] Here's the guy.

[00:59:28] What do you have?

[00:59:29] Like, literally take a day or two out of your life.

[00:59:31] I understand everybody's busy running your companies and come learn.

[00:59:35] This is a guy that, you know, trust me when I tell you, is not looking for business, you

[00:59:39] know, on the dartboard at the, you know, place down the street where everybody's cards

[00:59:44] are up on the wall.

[00:59:44] This guy has plenty of people standing in line for his time.

[00:59:47] Here's an expert.

[00:59:49] Download.

[00:59:50] Ask your questions.

[00:59:51] This is what you ask for.

[00:59:53] And we're going to deliver it to you here.

[00:59:56] John, thank you very much.

[00:59:56] Talk to you in Denver.

[00:59:57] Safe travels, my friend.

[00:59:59] Absolutely, man.

[00:59:59] We'll talk to you soon.

[01:00:00] Thank you.

[01:00:01] Thank you.