TWiT 1058: Furry Little Potatoes - Smart Glasses & Everyday "Surveillance"

[00:00:00] It's time for TWiT This Week in Tech. We are going to have a great show. I just know Victoria's song is here from The Virgin. It's the return of Christina Warren. She's now back at GitHub. We're going to talk about counting Renaissance butts in Rome with a meta Ray-Ban display. Disney and YouTube TV finally make a deal. And where's Tim Cook going? Is he ready to retire? All that more coming up next on TWiT.

[00:00:28] Podcasts you love. From people you trust. This is TWiT. This is TWiT This Week in Tech. Episode 1058. Recorded Sunday, November 16th, 2025. Furry Little Potatoes. It's time for TWiT This Week in Tech. The show we cover the week's tech news and we've been sitting here for half an hour chatting and I forgot to press the record button. So maybe we better begin the show.

[00:01:00] This is going to be one of those shows. It's going to be so much fun. Victoria's song is back. She was so great the last time you were on. I'm so glad we could get you back. Senior reviewer at The Verge. She's back from Rome with her meta display glasses. We've got lots to talk about. Victoria, welcome. Victoria Wright Thank you for having me.

[00:01:19] And someone we have missed desperately. She disappeared into the maw of Google, into the maw of deep mind and was incognito for a year. But she's back. I saw your post, Christina Warren at GitHub Universe. I said, what? And we immediately contacted you. Welcome back to the living.

[00:01:44] Victoria Wright Thank you so much. No, that was so nice of you because I didn't want to make a big deal about job announcements if it wasn't one of those things that was necessary. But I want to let people know I was at Universe and people picked up on it, which was great to see. And you always have this free... Victoria Wright Some very nice Crocs you were wearing.

[00:02:00] Victoria Wright I did. I had the Windows XP Crocs and I was wearing a Zune t-shirt and just going all out. Yeah, no, it was a good fit. It was a really, really good day two fit. Like day one, I was all looking sleek and professional. And day two, I was like, no, we're going to do the Zune t-shirt and the Windows XP limited edition Crocs, which are so good. Victoria Wright So those weren't hand painted? They actually sold those?

[00:02:27] Victoria Wright No, yeah. No, they actually made for the 50th anniversary, I guess, at Microsoft. An employee, shout out to Barry, Barry Doran's blow dart who got them for me because they were only available in the employee store. And it's an official collab that they did. Like they made like the bag that looks like, you know, the background and then like the little whatever they call them, the kibitz or whatever. Victoria Wright Chibitz. Victoria Wright The charms. Victoria Wright Thank you, the charms. Thank you. I've never worn Crocs. Victoria Wright Chibitz. Wait a minute. Are they called Jibitz? Jamie Goldstein Yeah.

[00:02:56] Victoria Wright Jibitz. Jibitz? That's what they call them? Flavителя Yeah, I've never worn Crocs. Victoria Wright I've never worn Crocs. Victoria Wright JibTS, or something like that. Victoria Wright Orz eyes something like that or Z or something. I don't know. Victoria Wright Hello Kitty. Victoria Wrightlight I've literally never worn Crocs, except for bat day. But you know, they had like Clippy and the recycle bin, and a couple of other like Internet because it's just, it's hilarious.

[00:03:25] So I have a rule to never wear plastic shoes, but I made an exception for these Crocs. So thank you, Barry, for getting them for me. They were really, really awesome. What's your kitty's name, Victoria? This is Petey. He is a menace. He's a menace. Cats know when you're on a podcast and they immediately jump into the frame. They do. He was napping. He was napping downstairs. And then he realized that I wasn't there.

[00:03:53] And anytime I sit at this desk, he requires a 15-minute session of attention until I pick him up. And he agrees to sit in the desk bed. And eventually he goes to nap there. But like he might just want to be involved for a little bit. It's quite all right. We don't need to exile him to desk bed. He can be part of the show as long as you don't mind. I don't mind. I don't mind as long as he doesn't eat my mic. Do you have anything to say?

[00:04:22] No, he doesn't have anything to say. I had a whole agenda of stories to talk about. We'll get to those. But Christina really wanted to know what it was like going to Rome with a meta display glass, meta ray. What do they call them? Ray-Ban display glasses. So they call them the meta Ray-Ban display. Unlike the Ray-Ban meta glasses, because why are we just messing up the naming convention? I don't know. This is the one with a little kind of heads-up display in the lower right-hand lens. Yes, there is. And so, you know,

[00:04:52] it does some things, like it notifies you when you have a text message. You can take photos and video with it and actually frame the shot within the lens, which is really great. Yeah, with the old meta Ray-Bans, you couldn't, you didn't know what you were taking a picture of. No, you didn't know what you were taking a picture of. That's how I learned. I tilt my head a lot because all of my photos were Dutch angle. Unintentionally so. And, you know, you can text message with it via WhatsApp. You know, like all the meta apps are on there.

[00:05:20] You can watch an Instagram reel from your DMs because sure, why not? But I think the interesting features for me were the fact that you can get live captions and translations and see them in real time. Ah, you're in Italy. Perfect. Yeah, you'd think, you'd think. Well, we'll get to that part. And then also, you can get walking directions. And I was surprised, but the walking directions actually came in super clutch because crossing the street in Italy

[00:05:50] is a never-ending game of Frogger. You will die if you're not paying attention to where you're going. And the times where the glasses would run out of battery, I would be like, oh, no. This is, this is, this is the trouble with depending on technology that when it doesn't work, now you're really, it's, I have that problem with GPS. I can't find my way out of a paper bag anymore because I'm so relying on GPS. It's, it's, it's, it's a problem. But, you know, we were walking

[00:06:20] to the Vatican in order to get to the Sistine Chapel and the directions are really great. There was only one time where we were kind of like turned around. My wife is so mad at me because I made her walk like a mile in the wrong direction and realized, wait a minute, it's that way and we had to turn around and she was so mad at me. But, as a result, we saw where, the forum, which is kind of not in, where you, where Caesar was murdered, you don't expect it. It's like lower below ground

[00:06:50] and it's where the cats of Rome live. Yeah. So that's pretty cool. I was upset because I didn't get to see that. It's really cool. I'm a big cat person. So, yeah. Well, I'm a big Caesar fan. So, you know, it works out. It works out. But yeah. Rome would be a great place to wear those. I think that is kind of a natural place to wear them. Yeah. I found that, you know, in my day-to-day life, it was really hard to incorporate the features that are cool because when I'm walking

[00:07:20] around my neighborhood, I don't really need walking directions because one, if I'm in Hackensack, Jersey, I'm in a car. I'm not going to use these glasses in a car. And if I'm walking around New York, it's a grid system. Why wouldn't you use them in a car? Do they block your view? I just don't think you want that kind of distraction. in the car, yeah. Like, in the car, you can just turn on audio-only mode if you do want to use them. The audio is really good. I have the old Ray-Bans. The Arna goes very good

[00:07:50] on those. Yeah. I like them a lot. I mean, I think that the new ones, when they get smaller, will be something that... So, Victoria... They are quite big. Yeah. Christina, you were interested because were you tempted as I was to buy the display version? No, because of the size. Strictly because of the size. They're pretty big. And I, you know, have a... The regular Ray-Bans work fine. But when I got the... The clear version last year, those were too big on my face,

[00:08:20] even though they were like the standard size. And so, for me, like... We have opposite problems. My glasses... Mine are always too small for my giant moon face. So, the display have hinges that, like, kind of fold out. Oh. So, it helps people with wider faces. But, you know... Still, the glasses would be narrow on your head and I don't like... They're quite large. I don't have them on me now because our video team is filming with them at the moment. But, they're quite large

[00:08:49] on my face. My spouse was just like... He looked at me and he was like, no. Absolutely not. Do you look nerdy? Don't love it. What do you look like? I... You can check the review out. There's tons of pictures of me in it in the review. I thought you looked... Honestly, like... You look better than I did. Like, what I always remember, I waited in line for five hours like an idiot for the original Snapchat spectacles outside of a pop-up in New York City. I remember that. It was a great... It's probably one of my favorite blogs that I've ever done.

[00:09:19] And I... And they looked so huge on my face. And it's amazing like how in like eight years, you know, how poor those were just in terms of like what the capabilities were, how they looked and whatnot. Now, like with the regular, you know, Ray-Ban collection stuff, they look almost identical to regular sunglasses. And then even these, you know, the display, which are very impressive. Like I said, I was not tempted just because I wouldn't wear them. Like, if they're gonna look bad on my face, then I'm too vain. I'm sorry. But... The temple pieces are pretty thick.

[00:09:49] I'm looking at your picture on The Verge right now. They're pretty thick. They are, but you can see where they're gonna go. That's the thing that excites me. Like you see that like in a generation or two, these are going to become smaller. Are they though? I mean, this is a technological challenge to get battery life and all that and all of that. The battery life was, is what I'll say is the biggest, weakest point besides the size is that, you know, when I'm using it in a heavy circumstance,

[00:10:18] like I went to a car show with my spouse and again, here I was trying to test the AI. So I'm at a car show and I'm just screaming at every car, what model car is this? And moving on and everyone thinks I'm crazy. But you know, this is what people would do when the first Bluetooth headsets came out, everybody thought, why is he talking to himself as he's striding around the street? So, you know, I have the, I have the, the wristband, I'm like tapping and so I look like a crazy person going like,

[00:10:47] what car is this? Just yelling at, at them. Could you type? It looked like Mark was typing with his fingers. So one of the features that'll come out later and I did get a demo of it is you'll be able to like put it on a flat surface and like write. Like if you're handwriting, like trace things and type. It was actually pretty good when I, when I tried it out. It's doing a lot of predictive stuff, right? So you do the first letter or two and then you say, okay, that's it. The neural band is actually one of the coolest things about it because it works quite seamlessly.

[00:11:16] So if you are familiar with the gestures on the Apple watch or other smart watches, it's going to be really familiar to you, but it's, it's pretty seamless. Like it is very cool that if you want to like turn the volume up, you just pinch and turn like you're turning a dial. How is simultaneous translation? Not that great in, in, in Italy just because, um, you know, it's directional. So the, it's the same thing with the live captions. And when I was testing it, if you are in a one-on-one setting,

[00:11:45] even if it's a little noisy out there, if you're in a one-on-one setting, like at a restaurant and you're talking to someone and you're just looking at them the entire time, it can be quite good. It doesn't do slang well, but that's all AI transcription, I think. Um, but it's quite good at getting the gist across. Now, if you're walking out and about, like you might be as a tourist and there's a lot of Italians yelling in, in the vicinity around you, you're going to have a hard time because it doesn't know who necessarily to translate because it's going to prioritize

[00:12:15] who you're looking at. So if you are just trying to get an announcement translated, well, good luck. Like, where is, where is the person you're talking to where the announcement is coming? You'll have to find the speaker and stand under it and look at the speaker. So it's not quite practical in that sense. But, um, so that was that limitation really for translating in, um, Italian, getting that done. And then also they don't have glasses so they can't understand where you're going back. So you have to pull out a thing and be like,

[00:12:44] here you go. And my in-laws are, um, very extroverted Americans. So they would just not even let me try to do that. They would just be like, do you speak English? And then switch to English and it would be like, oh, okay, well there's no opportunity there then to try that. But, so I found, um, that translation stuff if you're one-on-one and let's say you're like living abroad for a while and you're trying to make new friends and you're having

[00:13:13] a one-on-one friend date at a coffee shop like a lot of expats do. I think that could be really useful for you. But if you're a tourist, one, everyone's going to talk to you in English anyway. Right. Uh, two, it can be a little clunky because then you have to like bring it out and be like, this is what I'm using it for. It's also slow, right? It's not, it's not in real time exactly. It's decent, but there's slightly a bit of a lag with any translation tech. And I brought like standalone translator tech things to test out while I was there too.

[00:13:43] And there was only one instance where I felt like it was a good opportunity to do it. And that was when we were on a train and a Chinese grandma came up to me because I was the only other Asian person on this train. And so she's like, ah, do you speak Chinese? And I was like, no, I'm American. And so we used her little translator device there and that worked out pretty great. But yeah, so for translation, very certain circumstances.

[00:14:13] It's a very early days in this stuff though. I mean, it is. I think the walking directions was the absolute best use case of it. If Italian museums would install Wi-Fi, I think it could be a good thing to have the AI identify a piece of artwork for you if, you know, an audio guide is broken. Yeah, but, you know, I went to the Vatican museums. I went to the Schizzi Gallery in Florence.

[00:14:43] No Wi-Fi at either of these museums. That was very, I was just like, I would love to know about this painting, but alas. How was your cellular, I'm just curious how your cellular connection was. I know you didn't have Wi-Fi, but I was just curious, like, was 5G or LTE decent enough? Because when I was there, there wasn't a lot of ultra-wideband, but LTE was fast enough. And I'm curious if that would have been enough to keep up. Yeah, so I did have T-Mobile's international data plan.

[00:15:12] Not enough gigs, but it was good enough when I was out and about and I could have a strong signal, but I don't know what it is about these Italian buildings that block out any signal. I was going to say, they're thousands of years old. I think that's the problem, right? It's kind of like New York runs into that a little bit too because some of the buildings are so old and so you have some of the connectivity problems. Seattle does not have that problem because we don't have culture,

[00:15:41] but yeah. What do you mean you don't have culture? I mean, we don't, but newer cities don't have some of the same problems that way. But yeah, I imagine it's probably the age of some of the buildings. But yeah, I was just curious because that is going to have to be a thing eventually if these things take off. Because I could see this as if they want them to take off, right? Like in some of these areas, because I could see if these things get adopted more, the museum community and whatnot really wanting

[00:16:11] to embrace them and maybe even make their own apps or other things for this. Or just like opera houses, you could have the super titles on the glasses instead of on the screen. So it was a situation where I was like, oh, you know what? These glasses are actually great in situations where I can put them on for a specific purpose and then take them off. Because then I don't have any of the weird cultural qualms or because in my daily life when I wear them, I feel like a little gross, like a

[00:16:41] little super spy having capabilities that people don't know that I have. And a thing that came up a couple of times was when I would be looking at the screens, people would be like, what are you looking at right now? Because they can't see the screen, but they can really see that I'm not engaged in a certain way. I have a very dead-eye stare. And when I would demo the tech for my coworkers or some friends and I would see them do it, I was like, oh,

[00:17:11] this is horrible. So you can just imagine, like right now, you try to have a family dinner or you're on a date and everyone's on their phones and, you know, usually there's that one friend that's just like, okay, everybody, can we get off our phones? Can we be like present in the moment? And if you can just imagine the dystopia of you're on a first date date? And yeah, uh-huh, uh-huh, are you swiping on Tinder right now? What's going on? Or worse, are you looking me up, right? Like, are you like, you know, I mean, because that would be my concern. I'd be like, okay,

[00:17:41] because you've probably already done some retcon, but now you're there in person. You're like, okay, am I taking photos? Am I doing other stuff? Am I scrolling through your social media? Like, what's going on? Yeah. That makes sense, though. That's one of the big advantages of it. It does, but it's also weird. Right, I was going to say, it's both, right? Is this kind of creep or what? On the other hand, you're like, no, this is stuff, I think, to your point, Victoria, like, that other people don't know you have these capabilities, right? Soon we all will. With AI, AI is going to be embedded everywhere.

[00:18:11] We're going to all know everything about everybody we meet. It's going to be creepy. I mean, it's already creepy. It feels weird because, you know, sometimes you're on. So, a really good example is in my review on The Verge. If you scroll all the way down when I talk to the cultural and privacy implications, I have a video that I uploaded. And what was happening is I was in a florist coffee shop, one of those hybrid things, and I was trying to zoom out and taking a video because I was like, oh, this will be great footage, blah, blah, blah, blah. And what I

[00:18:41] don't notice is that the cashier is trying to talk to me, and she can't tell. She's just like, hi, can I help you? And I'm just going like, and then the second time, she's just like, hey, can I help you? And I was like, oh, God. Hi. Yeah, no, I'm just looking. And like, frantically, you can't see this part, but like, on the side, I'm just trying to close the camera out because I don't want her to be like, on camera because she doesn't know there's a, there's a recording indicator light.

[00:19:10] But in my experience, a lot of people just don't see it. They're not really aware of it because it's not red. It's white. So on the one hand, that makes you, the person using it, more likely to use it. You feel a little self-conscious. But then on the other hand, a lot of people don't know that it's white and they don't because the cultural, I think, language for us in recording lights is red. So it's, it's sort of like one of those things where I find that most people in

[00:19:39] public don't know what I'm doing at that point in time. So I personally feel quite ethically. See, you're unusual though, because I think a lot of people and the ones that you really don't want to be doing this are the ones who are going to have no ethical. Well, I was going to ask Victoria, do you think the decision to go white, which obviously, you know, a lot of, they're not the first ones to do it. I mean, the original Snapchat spectacles were white too. I think that the Google Glass, I'm pretty sure it was red, but, but everything else has been white.

[00:20:09] Do you think that that has been an intentional choice, like talking to these companies so that basically, so people don't know, like as much as they try to claim, oh no, we want everyone to be aware, they really don't. I think what they'll tell you is that they put a lot of thought and like research into what color they're choosing and I think they very intentionally choose white. white so that it's less glaring. So, you know, I can see. Less obvious is another way to put it.

[00:20:39] Less obvious, but still if someone's in the know, they can clue in. So it's sort of like a halfway thing because I get it when you have something that just has a red light on you, people are on guard and maybe you're just wearing this as a normal pair of glasses and headphones that you sometimes, maybe not even often, take the video or the camera with. In which case, if you're that person, well, do you want it to have a red light? Maybe not, but at the same time, if you're

[00:21:09] part of the greater public, I want to know when I'm being recorded. I feel like that's a common courtesy to know. So it's one of those things where consistently in my reviews I list it as a con because the white light, if you're in bright sunny daylight, you're just not going to see it. You just absolutely are not going to see it if you're outdoors. Yeah, so that's definitely a problem. And people may be using it as you were in the museum to say, what is this? But no one can tell whether you're doing

[00:21:38] that or recording them. Yeah. It's not clear. I think that's going to be, it was a big cultural problem with Google Glass and I don't think we've solved that issue. There are a lot of people who say, you don't wear those when you're sitting down with me, buddy boy. Right, right. I mean, and I think that that's the thing that is at least right now, like you can tell like with the, with the display, they are big enough. I think they're obvious in some ways if you look closely, you know what's going on. That is where I think just like the regular

[00:22:06] meta glasses are a little bit more insidious and frankly kind of why I like them, right? Because they are like unobstructive and I'm not trying to spy on people. I'm not trying to record things. The capabilities aren't there to do all these other advanced things. It's like, yeah, I can take a photo or a video, but really my primary thing is I have like a way to like listen to music and take a quick, you know, like photo or scroll or whatever, but I'm not, you know, like it's not like I can, I can do a whole lot more with it and I don't have to feel weird about you know, wearing something that just looks like normal glasses.

[00:22:36] But yeah, I do think that that is the thing that will become interesting is when these things do become less obvious and, and how do we culturally deal with that because, you know, it's going to happen. It's like air tags for me because 99% of people who use air tags are using it for completely benign reasons. They're using it for the way that it's intended and then there's the 1% of jerks who are using it in pretty harmful ways. Yes. And you're seeing that with the regular meta ray bands too because yes, there was a guy

[00:23:05] on a Bay area university who was using it to kind of harass women and make social media content out of it. That's pretty crappy. So you have instances out here now of people being glass holes, but because they're so discreet, it's not quite as easy for people to clock. Like Google Glass, you look like you're a sci-fi character. You did. You did. And frankly, I think a lot of the early adopters of Google Glass, because I followed that stuff very closely when it was happening, leaned

[00:23:35] in, frankly, to it, which made it worse, which made the whole thing worse. Scoble took it in the shower. Right, right. And then that became indicative of the whole thing. And, you know, I'm not going to blame him for that, but I would say, you know, No, in fact, it's good he did because it highlighted the issue. And to this day, I remember when Meta came out with the originals, they said, we hope Scoble doesn't get a hold of him. Right, right. But there were people who were like actively going into restaurants and almost picking fights and almost asking people to get kicked

[00:24:05] out and capturing things. In bars, yeah, yeah. Restaurants and bars. And, you know, I talked to some of those people, and I can say this with like more than 10 years of happenstance, they were actively in some of those cases being the antagonists. They were provocateurs. Yes. And they wanted a confrontation and then wanted to turn it into a story about look at how oppressed I am and look at how terribly I'm being treated for this. And all it wound up doing was turning everybody off of the category until we could finally get to a place where it is now. But the unfortunate thing is that, to your point, Victoria, because

[00:24:33] it is much less obvious, it can be more insidious. It can be used in these ways that we wouldn't want. Although to be fair, you know, you could use any number of cameras. Any number. It's like there's if there's, you know, for whatever you could, people are always going to be able to abuse things. I think we just have to be cognizant of what those things are. And I would like to see meta just lead the conversation more because anytime I have readers who are like bringing up these

[00:25:03] very valid concerns, the only thing I can point to is kind of an etiquette guide that meta has, like a very small one. And it's basically like, don't be a jerk. And I was like, that can't be your policy. Like there has to be some conversation you're having in terms of the design, in terms of setting the cultural tone with these. If you truly want to lead the space, because it's a problem that's going to pop up again. I went to a dinner with a friend that I hadn't seen in years and we were gabbing, yapping for like two hours.

[00:25:33] And then at one point, just the light changed and I went, oh my God, are you wearing Ray-Ban meta glasses? And he's like, oh yeah, I love them. I use them as like audio things and sometimes I take photos, but whatever. I, me, the wearable lady who tests this stuff, very familiar with what these glasses look like. I didn't clock it for two hours. So that was kind of a wake up call for me too, as to how discreet these really can be. And, you know, when you introduce a neural band, when you can put your hand

[00:26:03] under the table and start recording and there's no like a cue like this or there's no cue with the voice, you can just silently start recording someone. That's freaky deaky. That's super spy stuff. That is James Bond level things that you're putting into the average person's hand. It's not like a phone. Like there's no hiding a phone where you're like, I'm recording you. that sort of situation. So that freaked me out a little bit while I was

[00:26:31] testing these devices because it's, it's, it's a mind really. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that now you, now you've got another sin that you have to add. Listen, I'll just go back to Rome. I'll walk into the sand and have all of them clenched. You gotta go through the gate. We're going to take a little break here because I don't want to get too far in the hole with ads, but this is so much fun. And what we haven't even touched the first news stories that I wanted to get to. We will get to those. I knew it would be like this. Notice there is not a fourth person on this panel because

[00:27:01] when you have Christina Warren and Victoria's song together, it sings. It's just great to have you both. I'm really thrilled. We will be back in just a bit with more, of course. Our show today brought to you by Zapier. Love Zapier. It actually helps me every single day. I use Zapier workflows to automate my job, to automate our work. I have scripts that do all sorts of home automation things in business. Zapier is everywhere because

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[00:29:29] Now with AI, man, the sky's the limit. Join the millions of businesses transforming how they work with Zapier and AI. Get started for free by visiting zapier.com slash twit. That's Z-A-P-I-E-R dot com slash twit. Thank you, Zapier, for supporting this week in tech. We appreciate it. Well, we have to move on to serious news now. I'm sorry. We'll get back to fun. We're not done, but I should

[00:29:58] mention that Apple has lost that patent lawsuit with Massimo. Massimo and this time for $634 million. Just pay them. That's a jury decision instead of it. I don't know why they don't just pay them. They could just pay them. Yeah, they should have settled this years ago. Honestly, this whole thing is ridiculous. It's like I get the principle and I get to have more money than anyone else. But like, come on, guys, when you lose the jury trial, like, God, come on.

[00:30:29] Massimo has a, they have a watch, but they have other devices that have an optical sensor to detect blood flow. They say that that pulse oximetry feature, Apple stole it from us for their Apple Watch. For a while, Apple actually turned the feature off of new Apple Watches. Then they found a workaround, so it is back on. And I've always had it because it was grandfathered in, I guess. Massimo has also accused Apple of

[00:30:58] hiring away employees, including his chief medical officer, in order to do that. You may remember a few years ago, the ITC, the International Trade Commission, said, OK, you know, you can't import these Apple Watches with that feature. That's why Apple had to turn it off. Right. Now a jury has ruled, no, you know, this is a violation of the patent. And now I imagine it's not over. No.

[00:31:28] I would imagine. Apple said they're going to appeal. Of course they are. But this becomes an interesting question now about, like, does this change any things in terms of, like, the import van status? Because, yes, they had a workaround, but, like, I don't know what it means for me to that. Here's why Apple doesn't settle. Because they're worried that there would be other patents that would encourage other people to go after them. Sure. This is always a risk when you're creating a product that has so many technologies built into it. It just opens you up. And, you know, there's patent troll. I don't know.

[00:31:57] I don't think Massimo's a patent troll. No. I mean, patent trolls are real. And we saw that a lot. And especially, you know, last decade with a lot of mobile patents, right? Like, there were a lot of companies that would patent things related to cell phones and other stuff. And there was a consortium, I think, that was led by Apple. And I think that it was Google was part of it. And there were a couple of other companies, BlackBerry was part of it, that, like, bought. BlackBerry might not have been part of it. They might have had their own separate patent library that then became worthless as BlackBerry became worthless.

[00:32:26] But there was, like, a consortium that bought up a lot of the patents and then basically gave everybody, like, fair access and said, okay, we're all part of this group. And you'll be able to use these things and not be worried about being sued for using these features. So, yeah, I totally understand wanting to fight the patent trolls and whatnot. But in this case, I will say, I think that hiring away the chief medical officer thing, who cares? That's good. In California, that's illegal. In a lot of states, it's illegal

[00:32:54] to even pretend that you can't do that, right? Like, non-competes, which Apple has fought against. And part of the reason that they're illegal in California now is actually... Although Apple did it. Remember, Steve Jobs made a deal with Google. Yeah, well, I was going to say that's actually why they're illegal in the state of California is being the baffles own actions. So, you know, that I don't care anything about. And it is, you know, it seems like spurious. But some of the other things, like if they had the patent and if it's been found this way, I get not wanting to settle. I get not wanting to do this.

[00:33:25] But I feel like there could have been either a licensing agreement or something that you could have done that would not have cost you $600 million. Yeah, you make a deal. Yeah. The funniest thing is this feature is not that important. No. Exactly. It's just not that important of a feature as far as... I never use it. Like, right? Because doing spot checks is not that useful. Right. The only time that SpO2 is sort of useful right now is if you're going to do sleep

[00:33:54] apnea detection with it or some sort of sleep related feature. Well, Apple figured out a way to do sleep apnea detection without that sensor. So if you think about it, it's sort of just like... I bought, though, an oximeter, an oxygen sensor for my finger during COVID because that was one of the early signs that your COVID infection was going in the wrong direction was your oxygen saturation. So there is a medical use for it. I think you're right with sleep apnea. I pay attention.

[00:34:23] My aura ring will say, you know, you had no sleep disturbances or a few mild sleep disturbances. I pay attention to that. But Apple and aura and everybody who does this also say, but this is not diagnostic. You know, this is... It's not. You shouldn't rely on this for, you know, to say, well, I don't have sleep apnea. My ring says I don't. Just as the AFib and the other heart stuff with Apple. Yeah, it's all detection features. They very specifically say

[00:34:53] it's not diagnostic because that would require a higher degree of... And just so much... It introduces so much liability to say, my smartwatch diagnosed me with something. So it's never going to be that. And in their testing, I can't remember what heart feature it was, but Apple... I think it was AFib, but Apple... Or maybe one of the new ones, Apple, in their own testing, only caught about 50% of the AFib cases. So not showing AFib problems on your watch, you could... 50% of the people who had no problem do have a

[00:35:23] problem. It's not a useful... It's not that useful. It's... Right? Despite all the ads of Apple Watch is saving people's lives. I mean, it can. I mean, I was in it. It was minor, but I had a situation where my Apple watch caught that my resting heart rate was like 120, 130. Oh. And it was, you know, it was... It turned out that I had some sort of an infection and went on. So I had... I went to the, you know, hospital and it was one of those things I usually went to the ER. See, that's good. And I usually wouldn't go to... You know, I would never

[00:35:53] like be like, oh, I need to go to the ER for this. But when it was like hitting, like getting close to the 140 point, and again, this is my resting heart rate, I'm like, I'm concerned because I've had thyroid storm before and like this can be indicative of problems. And so, you know, they treated me. They gave me... Like I had to wear like a active heart monitor, for like two weeks, you know, to test things. But see, that's the real deal, right? And that's the gold standard. And that's the way you should be. That is what you should be doing. But if the watch warned you, I think that's valuable, right? Right. But I was going to say,

[00:36:22] I wouldn't have known that, right? Like I felt tired, but it wasn't one of those things that like stuck out to me. And when I'd had the situation earlier in my life, which was related to a different situation, that was only caught because I happened to be at a completely different doctor's office. They did my, you know, took my pulse and they were like, something's not right. And it turned out that, yeah, I was in a thing called thyroid storm, which can be very, very bad. And I was young and I was seeing an endocrinologist,

[00:36:51] so that was a problem that he didn't catch it. I'd seen him literally two days earlier and that he didn't, you know, he was in the same office as the doctor that I was in who actually did catch it. But, you know, I look back on that. And I'm like, yes, you're right. These things aren't going to be perfect. They're not diagnostic, but they can be good signs just to know. For baselines. Exactly. Just for baselines. And that can be really, really beneficial. I think if you lean on it too hard one way or another, like it's not going to be good. But I'm glad that I knew,

[00:37:22] you know, like six years ago or whenever, you know, this last instance happened. I'm glad I was wearing my Apple watch that morning. So it's exactly for that reason. It's baselines. If you know your baselines, if it's doing something like passively checking, if you have an irregular heart rate, like those things are, you know, that one's actually the one that most people are like, oh, that saved my life. Do you think it's a risk that it could turn us all into hypochondriacs? Yes, that's already a problem. That's happening. Yeah, but they're already doing that. People are already having that health anxiety.

[00:37:52] My heart. Yeah. There was a study that came out and there was this elderly woman and she had done something like over 900 EKG readings in a year because she was so paranoid about that. Yeah. So, you know, the health anxiety portion of that, that is a very real thing. And there's also just a lot of miseducation about that out there because it's really good that you got a fingertip pulse oximeter during COVID because that is something that can do that real time checking.

[00:38:22] It's something that, you know, is gone through. And it was accurate. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it knew, whereas the watch I think is much less accurate. I don't know about Aura, but I just feel like. They're accurate for certain situations, like when you're passively sleeping, those sorts of things, like just kind of an antidote when my mom was dying. It makes me feel good when it says you don't have sleep apnea. My wife says you're snoring like a mother. What the hell's going on?

[00:38:51] So I just, but look, my ring says it's okay. Yeah. Google has been ordered to pay a 660, speaking of fines, a $665 million fine in Germany for anti-competitive practices for abusing its dominant market position for what? Google shopping? Is that still a thing? No. Who even uses that? But okay. It's long gone, but I guess it takes a while.

[00:39:18] And I presume, you know, I presume Google is just going to say, yeah, fine. I mean, Google makes is so profitable just as Apple is, but Google is even more profitable than Apple that they can. I'm sure they'll fight it. I'm sure they'll fight it. But yeah, I mean, and, and, and it is interesting. Google shopping apparently does still exist. Oh, does it? Yeah. At least. So the issue was something Google's denied all along that Google search results prefer Google product, you know, products like YouTube or

[00:39:48] Google shopping? Well, I think that it would, it would, I think that, I think the thing was that like you would, it would prioritize links to, I guess, maybe Google affiliated shopping links versus like stores like Amazon or whatever. And, and, and anecdotally that did seem to be the case, but I think the, the question was, and obviously the court is in Germany has decided was, is that a violation of antitrust, right? Because you could make the argument that says, well, this is our search engine. These are our products. This is what people, we're allowed to vertically integrate the way that it's what people want. Right. Exactly.

[00:40:17] Like if we're able to find the deals and whatnot, I think that the bigger issue, at least with some companies, and I don't know if this was the case in Germany, but I know like Yelp and some other, you know, U S based companies were very bothered by the fact that they almost felt like they had to pay. Like, that's one of the complaints people have about these European, these EU prosecutions though, is that they are driven by EU companies that don't like competing with big American companies like Spotify, like whatever they have in

[00:40:46] Germany for Yelp. Maybe it's Yelp. I don't know that it's really, you know, these other companies trying to tilt the playing field away from your American big tech. Is that fair? I think, I don't know. I feel like the EU stuff is, I don't know your perspective on this as Victoria, but for me, it always feels like, especially when you look at the DMA and this Google case is different from that, which Apple is dealing with. But a lot of it just seems like there's, there are levels of bureaucracy and that can be a good or a bad thing, right?

[00:41:16] And in my opinion, I sometimes feel like it goes too far and accomplishes a little, but I know that many people in the EU and in their countries are very protective about their, you know, protection rights and the things that are, you know, like built into how their governments are structured. And that just, I think, goes against some of the ways that, you know, these, the U S companies have operated and have been able to continue to operate. Over the last couple of decades. Because the Trump's administration's response to this is no, you can't regulate our guys.

[00:41:46] That's our job. Right. Right. So they're defending American companies in Europe, but they're going after them in the U S. Yeah, but that's kind of in it, you know, that's kind of inconsistent. I think going back to the Obama administration, right? Like honestly, like, like the whole thing. We have these deals. You're not supposed to prosecute us. We'll leave that to us. Right. Well, it was, but I think it's also a very, like the way I look at it is that it's a very like weird cultural thing because as Americans, I think that a lot of us, we have like, because of just, especially if we were

[00:42:15] born here, like we have a sort of sense of a complex, which is like, you're not going to tell me what to do. Like the government is not going to regulate, especially when it comes to businesses, right? That's kind of a fundamental part of being an American that is very different in the EU where it is much more accepted because the, you know, the public has seen the benefits of having. Well, that's the opposite. That's the other side of the coin is thank God for the EU, because we don't seem to be doing much here in the United States to protect our privacy.

[00:42:44] No, right. Exactly. And so it's one of those tradeoff things, which is like, and it's hard for me as an American, like I never feel more American than when I'm in kind of these discussions about things, because I'm like, this is a thing where I objectively know the benefits of the way that the EU system might work. But because of how I've lived my whole life, there's a part of me that rubs up against being told you as a private business have to adhere to these terms, which might be onerous and might be useless, like the USBC thing, right?

[00:43:14] Like on the one hand, it's good to have a standard. On the other hand, all you're doing is forcing everybody on to either, you know, like one type of connector type where you don't even know what the actual capabilities are behind the scenes and the little logos don't make it super clear and, you know, have discouraged, you know, like to save the fact that now we're not going to get like we don't get chargers in our boxes and some other kind of, you know, overly onerous stuff

[00:43:42] from like, OK, I get why you want to encourage some of these things, but it feels just overly like putting a hand on the scale. So I go or Ackerman in our club says this is the German site that went after Google in Germany Idealo, which is a German shopping site that says, hey, Google doesn't put our results at top. They put their results at top. So I mean, I get it if you're trying and you really want if you are the small person going up against the

[00:44:11] Goliath. It's kind of hard. It's hard. It's yeah, it's really it's even harder. The power of Google search is what it really is. Right. Right. But I think the fundamental disconnect is and this is in the German course have decided is, OK, if you're creating the search engine, if you're building the infrastructure, if you're supporting all of this, why you know, are you not allowed to dictate or at least have some role in how the results are displayed? Our search results. Why can't we favor ourselves? Right. I mean, because if we look at almost any other social platform you have, you know,

[00:44:41] it's not like we've had algorithms determining, you know, feed results for a very long time. And, you know, Google makes the argument that they are choosing the best results for those purposes. Now, again, and this has been a question that a lot of people have had for a long time, which is OK, but are you favoring your results or are you requiring people to pay, you know, maybe onerous, you know, like, you know, fees and whatnot to be included and even have a chance to have your things promoted and whatnot. Right. Like, are these things going to appear organically or not? And those are valid

[00:45:10] questions. But I think that Google's response probably would have been and I'm not speaking for them. I have no idea what their actual position is, would be like, OK, if you're this bothered by this, then build your own search engine. But at a certain point, you become a monopoly and you become such a, you know, integrated part of every part of, you know, the computing world that governments, I mean, the United States is going after them, too, is, you know, a lot of countries are going to be like, OK, but it's great. You built all this.

[00:45:39] But because it is, you know, such a monopoly, there have to be some regulations. Google made a lot of money this quarter. They did. They did. They'll be fine. They did. They'll be fine. That's how you make a lot of money. By favoring your results. Our long national nightmare is over. Monday Night Football is back on YouTube TV tomorrow night. Disney has, I don't know if Disney caved or YouTube caved.

[00:46:08] I couldn't tell, but all I know is the deal was settled. So thank God it's over. I know. I actually subscribed to ESPN. God. Because we don't, we can't get over the air television up here in the boonies. And so the only way we were going to be able to watch Monday Night Football last Monday was to watch it on ESPN. OK, I'm going to send you some links. I've canceled that subscription. OK, good. Well, I'm glad. But I'm going to say there are links available. There's ways around it? There are. There are a lot. There are so many IPTV. I will send you links, Leo,

[00:46:38] because here's the thing. Really? Yes. But that's illegal. You're going to have to go through the gate again. OK, you're already technically paying. If you're paying for YouTube TV and there's a carousel. Oh, they gave me 20 bucks back. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Great. Great. Yeah, I know. So I'm only 10 bucks in the hole by buying ESPN for 30. Right. So my point being, when these carousel disputes happen, my morality and not that I have much of it anyway. I mean, I mooch off of a friend's YouTube TV account and then use a VPN every three months to make

[00:47:07] it look like I'm at their location so I can reset it so I can travel. But thank you, Jeremiah. But like I... I'm not sure you should announce that in public. No, I think we should do more subscription stealing to be quite... Yeah, I mean, honestly. Truly. Well, and also like, look, whatever. I pay so much for me. Victoria, I don't steal the Verge subscription. I pay my Verge subscription regularly. And my GitHub fees, I pay those too, Christina. Appreciate it.

[00:47:36] We very much appreciate it. We appreciate it. But I'm saying if you're already paying for a service and there's a carousel dispute which is out of your control as a customer. No, you're right. That's a good point. I do not think that there's any moral argument at all to figure out how to get an IPTV link, of which there are many, to be able to enjoy what you need to enjoy. People are a little mad at Disney now, by the way. Not because of this, but because of Bob Iger saying Disney Plus is going to do AI-generated videos. Yeah.

[00:48:04] Pissing off all the creatives in Hollywood. I think that's a kind of a strategic error. It's interesting because I think it depends on on what they mean by like AI-generated. Like does that mean, like does it mean there could be... This is during the Thursday earnings call, which by the way, everybody thinks was why Disney settled because they didn't want to say at the earnings call we're losing $30 million a week without having

[00:48:34] this YouTube TV deal that kind of prodded them along. Anyway, Iger said, quote, there's phenomenal opportunities to deploy AI across our direct consumer platforms, both to provide tools that make the platforms more dynamic and more sticky with consumers. Ew. But also to give consumers the opportunity to create on our platforms. I mean, what do you think that means, Victoria? That's weird. Could we just not? You know exactly what that means, Leo. That means...

[00:49:02] Sora clips on Disney Plus. Yes. Could we just not? I mean, I agree. I agree. But at the same time, I mean, like if they do want to create an app, which we know they'll abandon in 18 months where people can create clips that they put up whatever guardrails they want to put up until someone inevitably breaks them and then has Elsa from Frozen do something terrible within 24 hours. 1000%. But come on, think of the content in that 24 hours. The first 24 hours of Sora was incredible. Listen, I'm great. I'm great at making

[00:49:32] cursed ass prompts that make, you know, me too. Are you? Oh, my editors will like toss it at me and then be like, oh God, why did we ask you to do this? Because you want, you want to know if I can break it because I have made some cursed traps. Are you the queen of jailbreaking AI? Are you? I've made some very, I just have a twisted mind and I want to see how far I can push it. I've made some cursed, cursed chat GPT images. Me too.

[00:50:02] Really? Oh, yeah. Do you think everybody's done that? No. No. Not to this extent. I mean, you seem like me, Victoria, because what I did actually, and I would do this even as like part of like work, frankly, like be testing new model and be like, okay, well, let me see if I can break it. And genuinely, that would be like, we would have like a, all kind of like getting when you were working at DeepMind. Yeah. Yeah. And I wasn't alone in this. Like we, there were, you know, groups where they basically would be heads down.

[00:50:31] But they want to do that. That's different. That's, that's kind of QC. That's product testing. sure. But before, but the reason I'm so good at it was because I would. Because you have a perverted mind. Well, before I worked there, like that was anytime a new image generator or anything would come out, I would be like, okay, how can I get this to have some copyrighted character do something terrible in the world and then send those images to my friends? Because it's funny to me because I have my Victoria twisted sense of humor. And so Sora, it was interesting

[00:51:01] because there would be things that they wouldn't let me post and things that I would never have posted under my name anyway because I'm not dumb. But I would, it would create it anyway and then you're able to download the video and then send them to the group chat and you're like, look what I'm trying to do. Like this video of Clippy getting arrested? I mean, I love that. I mean, that's really good. But that's just genuinely funny. Like we're talking some real curse stuff. Clippy probably doesn't have the copyright police on its side anyway. What's the curse? So give me an example, Victoria.

[00:51:31] What's really cursed? So, you know, I got assigned a story many months ago to try these AI kiss and hug apps. I don't even know about these. Oh, there were these apps that you could download. You just upload two pictures of people and try and make them kiss. I have some horrible imagery on my phone. What's the worst two people you made kiss? Trump and Tim Cook, French kiss. Oh. I did something similar,

[00:52:01] but I had, there were some, I don't know, some white sand-like substances involved. Yeah. And I had gentlemen's clubs. I feel so sorry to Idris Elba and Adam Driver. I did some really cursed things. They were growing boobs in bikinis and dancing around and I would just send these to my editors and they're like, what's wrong with you? And I was like, you asked me to do this. I'm just trying to see what you can do. And lo and behold,

[00:52:29] a lot of those apps got rid of the French kissing stuff because AI, AI don't know what to do with tongues. No, they don't. They don't. They don't know what to do with tongues. They're getting better with mouths, but yeah, they don't have to do with tongues. Now, did you find, I found Grock was the one that was the easiest. Grock, you can get it to do. And I actually had Grock. There were a couple that I, prompts that I gave Grock that gave me back results that I was actually very uncomfortable with when it tops, speaking of the kissing stuff where I went, okay, actually, even from my sensibilities,

[00:52:59] this is too far and I wasn't even trying to jailbreak it. I was just putting in, you know, a prompt that it just took because like, the Grock was so off on it. Back in February, hackers posted a video of the president kissing and caressing Elon Musk's feet in, on the TVs in the Department of Housing and Urban Development. It was playing over and over and over again. Now, that's a hack. Yeah, and there's like, really easy ways to get around the fact that these things are trying not to use

[00:53:28] public figures because I think for Trump and Tim Cook, I was using prompts. You're going to never stop that, right? Because they're public. You can't. It's just easy because you can just say a tanned dictator with a red baseball cap making out with a silver-haired tech executive. And it's going to just do it? Yes. It will. Yeah, because that's what it knows. I mean like... You're so bad. Well, because like, you know, one of the things is like, you know, one of the big tests was like, we'll spend the meetings together. Victoria goes, well... Right.

[00:53:58] Well, like one of the big tests for the models like a year ago or whatever, like, you know, Will Smith eating spaghetti was ridiculous and now like... Right. Look how good it is now. The 3.1 is great, right? But the thing is, is there are some, not for everyone, but there are some like guardrails in place and so if you put in to VO3, show Will Smith eating spaghetti, it won't work. Really? I can't say... Right. But now, what it will work with and I'm not sure if this is the case now because I haven't tested this with the latest version, but what I did do,

[00:54:27] because I know this because I did live demos with this. Two regular users, so sorry Google, but it was part of my job. If you put in the, you know, actor from Bad Boys or Men in Black eating spaghetti... Or Edward Cullen. Yes. Edward Cullen versus Robert Pattinson, that sort of thing. So, and, and, and, you know, and like the companies, I can't speak for all of them, like, but they have taken on, I can't speak for any of them, but,

[00:54:57] but what they've said publicly is that they are taking on some of that risk, right, in terms of public figures and whatnot. Yeah. Right. And, and there are, the law is unclear, I think, about how this sort of likeness stuff can be used. There will be lawsuits, obviously, you know, Sora had to make a lot of, you know, clampdowns on things because the King Foundation and other one up. you can say, you have publicity rights in terms of your face being used for advertising. Yes. But, if you're a president of the United States,

[00:55:26] people can use your image in AI, you don't have legal Right. Well, and the thing would, when the thing would be is that I think the real question is who, who would be legally responsible? If, if someone's creating, you know, an AI generated video that's making it look like you're endorsing something or saying something or doing something, then I think that one argument would be whoever generated that content is the one who is legally liable. The, the question, which is not the settled. platforms get held responsible. Well, well, they do and they don't. And that's, that's the thing that hasn't been settled yet, which is to say,

[00:55:55] are they going to be responsible? And, and that hasn't been settled. And, and I think that's, many of them are, are airing in the air of caution for certain types of public figures and to cut down on certain things. But again, you see Grock, which doesn't have that at all because their lawyers have made the determination whether it's right or wrong that they're not going to take that on. That being said, you know, I'm sure that Grock would not defend any lawsuits brought against someone who generated content using Grock that then violated, you know, some, some sort of norm,

[00:56:25] right? Like I, I think that their position would probably be, and I don't know this definitively, but, but I'd assume it'd be similar to the other companies, which is to be like, if you are actively infringing on something, then we are not going to be responsible for that. We will protect up to a point, but we're not going, if you're going out of your way to, you know, infringe on something, like you're the one who's responsible, not us. Let's take a little break when we come back. X has finally announced its end-to-end encrypted chat. Sure. Great.

[00:56:55] The everything app is just around the corner. You guys are, you're so, you, you young people today, you're so cynical. You're so cynical. We'll have more in just a bit. Victoria Song is here. Senior reviewer at The Verge. Love her writing, love her work, and love having you on the show, Victoria. Thank you for being here. And also, Christina Warren's back baby. Now that she's no longer in the maw of the deep mind, she can join us. Back at Senior Dev Advocate

[00:57:25] at GitHub. Crocs and all. Yeah. Great to see you both. You're still a sneaker fan, though. You're not doing that. Oh, yeah. Oh, no. I've worn Crocs once in my life. It was for a really good fit. I don't wear plastic shoes, as a rule. I don't. But it was a great thing. But no, they're going to go on my shelf, but I will never wear them again. They're good house slippers. I got to say, I have a pair of Crocs slides for house slippers. They don't look like normal Crocs. I wear Ufos.

[00:57:54] Okay, so that I might be open for, but I was not taken in by the comfort. Everybody talks about how comfortable Crocs are. Oh, no, they're not. I did not. I was like, this is awful. Why would I ever put this on my feet? But if you say the slides are good for house slippers, I usually wear Adidas slides for that. But you know what? That might not be a bad thing. I wear the Ufos because they're recovery slippers. Yeah, and they're more comfortable. They're nice. Well, my mom got me these things at, I think it was like a Bass Pro Shop or something. I don't remember, but they don't make them anymore. But they were great. They were these slippers

[00:58:23] that are, no, they're great. Like the bottoms, I love them in New York because the bottoms are thick and you can walk outside with them. But they're like flip-flops or kind of sandals, whatever. But they're covered in like really warm kind of fuzz. So you just slip your feet in, but then you could walk outside if something is like rainy or slushy and it's not going to get your slippers. That sounds like glare-ups. They were great. Are they glare-ups? I know. I can't remember the name of the brand. We tried to find them and they stopped making them or something, but they were really, really good.

[00:58:52] I feel like this is the Christmas gift that I'm going to give everybody in my family. These are like from Sweden or someone. They're wool. Oh. Is this it? Yeah, there they are. They're wool and they have leather soles and they're really great. They're really comfy. They're basically felted wool. I don't know why there's recipes. Oh, that's nice. There they are. They're slippers. Yeah. I really like them. Those are my house slippers too. That and the Ufus, depending on my mood. If I want to wear rubber, I'll wear the Ufus. If I want to wear wool,

[00:59:22] I'll wear the glare-ups. All right. I don't know how we got in this. I'm sorry. Look, shoes. Do you guys have Lefufus? Do you have Lefufus? Okay. I do. Lefufus. Lefufus? I have a Lefufu. My gas station Lefufus. Oh yeah, we talked about Lefufus last time. Oh, you have Lefufus. So funnily enough, they just opened a new Pop Mart in Unisperia in San Francisco. I had tons of stuff. I was able to walk right in. And I was able to get the Coca-Cola one that I wanted from that collection. They had all the collections out and you could just get them.

[00:59:52] It was wild because the Pop Mart in Seattle is always insane. And I never bothered with it. But no, I was able to just- San Francisco is too cool for Lefufu. I don't know. I think that people don't know that the store opened is my thought because the Nintendo store opened across the street from it and there's a Pop Mart next to Macy's basically. And so me and my friend Helen went like two weeks ago. Stopped up on the Lefufu. I don't need a Lefufu. I'm happy with my Lefufu because they're a little weird looking. What's the difference between a Lefufu and a Lefufu again filming in?

[01:00:22] A Lefufu is the real thing. Yeah. A Lefufu is a knockoff dupe and they usually look a little jank. They're always a lot, which is great. It's the Teemu Lefufu is what you're saying. Yes, Teemu Lefufu. The number of teeth is wrong. There's something weird with stitching. Like they're doing the counter of its once. Oh, it knocked my mic over. But yeah, no. Honestly, I kind of, in some ways that I'm kind of with you, Victoria, I kind of like them better because it gives them more character. Oh, yeah. They're so funny. They are so funny. But I'm, you know, I'm from Atlanta. I'm a Coca-Cola girly.

[01:00:51] And so being able to get one of those Coca-Cola Lefufu's, you know, that's holding like the bottle. Do you call every soda a Coke? Yeah. Yeah. Not pop. No. It's not soda. It's Coke. I mean, I usually say soda because I've lived other places for so long. And so you become more confident. But in Atlanta, it's all Coke. Yeah. Yes. And it's funny because people sometimes, is Pepsi okay? And I'm like, yeah, I don't care. I'm just ordering the generic. Just soda. You know, like. Soda pop. Right. You know, Coke.

[01:01:21] I mean, I would obviously prefer Coca-Cola and I will only drink Pepsi at first, but, and that's just me being, you know, like loyal to my hometown. But yeah, I mean, yeah. In Atlanta, everything is a Coke. And it's one of those funny things because yeah, you go to like a pizza hut or whatever and you're like, can I get a Coke? And they know they're owned by PepsiCo. Well, they used to be, but they still have an exclusive relationship except for the ones at Emory, Georgia Tech. And I think UGA,

[01:01:50] because the campuses have agreements to only have Coca-Cola products. So those locations like on campus, have to serve Coke products, even though, even when they were owned by PepsiCo, it was funny. Did Yum buy them? They did. But I think they've since diversified, but they still have a, I think like standard agreement. I know too much about this. You do. You're way too fascinated. I do. Unfortunately, I can also go through a whole like diatribe on the history of like Dr. Pepper Company

[01:02:20] and it's modeling partnership. Oh God, Waco, Texas. Yes. But, but, but even beyond that, the Cadbury Schweppes of it all and the Snapple group of it all. And anyway, I won't get into all that, but no, I mean, but everybody like, yeah, in Atlanta, like you order, it doesn't matter where you are, you order a Coke. It's the regional word for soda pop. Yeah. Yes. And they know, but if you go outside of that, the regional Cadbury. And I'm like, I don't care. Just give me, you know, whatever your artisanal, you know, Coke-like product

[01:02:49] that tastes worse than Coke is. Like just, just give it to me. If it's fizzy and sweet, I'll take it. Give, give me like your, fizzy, sweet and brown. I'll take it. Exactly. Exactly. All right. We're going to take a break. We won't come back. You're watching this week in tech. This episode this week brought to you by Deal. D-E-E-L. This solves a problem. I think a lot of companies have, we have this problem too. You know, you find the perfect engineer, but they live overseas.

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[01:04:45] Pibb like left for a while. That was one of the interesting things. So in almost every territory, except for the United States, um, and, and, and a couple of others, Coca-Cola actually bottles Dr. Pepper. Oh, but, but they are not allowed to, because of various, I think competitive thing. I don't know what the deal was, but they haven't been able to bottle it and distribute it in the United States. So it's still distributed by, um, at this point, the Dr. Pepper company, which used to be known as Cadbury Schweppes. And then I think it became like Dr. Pepper Snapple. And then there've been other things, uh,

[01:05:14] that's just different from the whole Waco Dr. Pepper controversy of who's the real owner of the Dr. Pepper, you know, uh, formula or whatever. Was there a Dr. Pepper? Yeah. Don't they own Keurig? It was Keurig. It was Keurig, Dr. Then it was Snapple. Then it was Keurig. Now I think it's just Dr. What is going on with all these giant food conglomerates? Is there a reason? I don't know, dude. For all that. Anyway, let's talk about X. Uh,

[01:05:43] they are finally rolling out their end to end encrypted chat with video calling. I presume this is the beginning of X becoming the everything app. Uh, I remember Elon dissing signal, uh, saying, no, no, you know that you can't trust them. You got to do, you got to trust X for ending. Oh, would anybody trust the guy who made the fricking grok companions and like a rude raccoon boy.

[01:06:11] And I used grok when that first came down and I didn't choose a rude raccoon. I just chose the raccoon and it was rude. Oh, if you choose the rude raccoon, not rude. But I didn't choose anything. I just, I said, I wanted, they had the two characters and I just tried it. Let, you know, the next day, the raccoon suddenly had a little kid voice and it was for kids. But the day before I can't, I can't, I'm embarrassed to even say what it said. It was so appalling. I said,

[01:06:41] it's insults weren't good. And it went, your insults aren't good. My insults are awesome. Oh God. You do it very well. You do the, it was, it was, it was cursed. The cursed raccoon. All right. Well, same company and the same AI, I guess. Do you, have you, do you guys use Grockopedia at all? We're going to have Jimmy Wales on the intelligent machines on Wednesday. And I'm very curious what he'll say about Grockopedia. Yeah. It is like it skimmed Wikipedia,

[01:07:11] but then it added more or something to it. Yeah. I mean, it basically they, what it seems like to me is that they've ingested a lot of the articles. But then they, like if I look at my Grockopedia entry, it's got a lot more. Right. But then they've also, I think like, you know, cert, they maybe use that as a starting point, starting point. And then like using like the internet to add in more details, which could be a good thing, right? Like in some cases, depending on what it is,

[01:07:39] it might be able to pull in more relevant information or newer information than what Wikipedia might give you because Wikipedia has to be added manually. But, um, um, I don't know. I haven't really, I mean, I used, like I tried it out when it came out, just, I guess to see some of the differences in how it wrote certain articles, but I haven't like, if it was a political issue, it would definitely have a slant, but it didn't on my entry. Um, yeah, yeah. I mean, and then that, that's the thing.

[01:08:08] I think that obviously they're probably optimizing for certain, um, article types and, and, and, um, subject areas. It's entirely generated by, by XAI, right? It's. I think so. But, but I mean, I'm sure that they're, you know, training things in certain ways, maybe making approvals or whatnot. Um, it's interesting. And this, I think this is what would be interesting to talk to Jimmy about, you know, um, when Wikipedia started, I mean, obviously it is, it's all, you know, human, um, uh, you know, generated. Although I think that early on a lot of it, like,

[01:08:38] well, they had two models. First, they were writing like very detailed, informed articles, like an encyclopedia would. And it took a long time for subjects to get up. And that was one of the reasons why he switched to the, you know, model of letting anybody contribute. And then that obviously, you know, it proliferated, took off. And then it's amazing. Yeah. And then, and then they, you know, created the whole, you know, your bureaucracy system around it so that you could, you know, manage what's allowed and what's not, who's trusted and what, whatnot. And that's had, you know, issues as any social systems do.

[01:09:05] And I've been critical about it for decades at this point, but I also have to admit that it's worked well, but I would be curious to know, like, you know, he started Wikipedia, what the 2001. So like close to 25 years ago, I think it was January of 2001. So 25 years on like putting them in the politics and the rationale and the Elon Muskness of it aside, assuming he was trying to start a project like Wikipedia. Now I would be curious to know if he would be open to using AI.

[01:09:34] I think he said generate some of that content. Right. He said that. And I think that was very controversial. And that's one of the first things we're going to ask him. Cause it's, it's a show about AI. So yeah. Cause, cause, cause I would, I would think that a good model potentially, if you were trying to start from scratch, right? If you're trying to get a corpus from scratch and you don't have Encyclopedia Britannica or, you know, any other systems to kind of, you know, generate from, if you needed to get a corpus of data, it might not be a bad solution at this point. If you have access to AI,

[01:10:03] which has access to those things to help build, you know, stubs and then have humans come in and add things and, and maybe vet things. Right. But, but I feel like, you know, what's been, what's amazing about Wikipedia is what it's managed to generate in 25 years. And, and, and all the stuff that's been there. Although a lot of the early entries were basically copy pasted from traditional encyclopedias and sources like Encarta and whatnot, which makes sense. Right. Like, you know, maybe people would be. Encarta was based on what it was a Funk and Wagnalls. I mean,

[01:10:32] it's hard to start from scratch. Precisely, precisely. And, and many times, you know, that the hardest part with these systems is like the, the newer information, right? Like you can, some things almost become settled. Right. And, and there obviously we can go back and revisit the history and revisit how, you know, the figures are portrayed, but there are some events that it's just like, this is what this is, or this is a concept and how it works. It's the, the area where things are always much more controversial are the events that are taking place more in real time. And, and, and that I don't think really changes whether you have AI doing it and

[01:11:02] making the decisions or you have humans involved. I feel more comfortable if humans are involved, even if they're going to be biased, but I would be just interested in like, if he were starting Wikipedia today, how would he do it? And, and how would, would AI play a role? Cause I have, I have, yeah. Like it wouldn't make sense not to at least consider it. I agree.

[01:11:29] We had mentioned on Mac break weekly, every time Mark German over Bloomberg said, Tim cook's going to step down someday. And here's who the successors are and pooh-poohed it saying, well, I don't think that's going to happen. Tim's only 65. Why should he suit certainly doing really well with Apple. He's made a big success of it this week. Financial times. Yeah. This is the login screen.

[01:11:57] So I don't need to show that I'm logging in right now. See, I pay for this stuff. I do too. Yeah. Financial times really expensive. It is very expensive. And I, I, I, I, yes. Yes. Yes. The answer is yes. Anyway, financial times. Well, the funny thing is you don't really need a subscription to the financial times or anything else because all the other blogs will immediately republish it. So, uh, so somebody has one subscription and we all share it. Like, Victoria,

[01:12:27] do you remember when the wall street journal log in, there was a login that was media media. Do you remember this for, for like a decade, you could log into the wall street journal for free using the username media and the password media. And then like in 2016 or 2017, they cut it off. And it was very annoying to have to then pay for the wall street journal. I didn't know that. And I've been paying for the wall street journal. I mean, it's gone. I mean, it's gone. They got rid of it. I mean, I, I, I actually think that's one of the more valuable subscriptions I pay for, but yeah, I, yeah. Anyway, according to the financial times,

[01:12:56] Apple is actively preparing for Tim cook to step down. Uh, they're implying that it will happen probably as soon as next year that John turnus who's Apple senior vice president of hardware engineering is likely the successor. That's what, uh, Mark Gurman has also been saying, although according to the sources, uh, and this is a story written by Tim Bradshaw, Steven Morris, and Michael Acton in San Francisco and Daniel Thomas in London. Uh,

[01:13:25] they say they have sources inside Apple. No final decisions have been made about who would succeed. Cook, right? Uh, their performance is fine. Earnings have been fine. Why would Tim cook stay, step down? He's he's, I guess he's nominally retirement age. Yeah. I mean, look, I think it could be a number of things. One, I think we were talking about Bob Iger earlier and we were talking about kind of the response to him and the earnings call. And we were talking about, you know,

[01:13:54] if people are mad at him and whatnot. And I think he's an interesting case where he clearly did not want to leave Disney when he left Disney. He did not, he was not ready to go. He did not want to leave the CEO ship and he left. They put in Bob Chapek, who was a disaster. He came back, but when Bob Iger came back, it wasn't the same company and he's not seen the same. And I think that his legacy is unfortunately going to be really hard by, you know, leaving and coming back. Kind of what Axios has been saying, the twilight of the star CEO.

[01:14:22] And they tie this into the fact that the CEO of Walmart, Doug McMillan stepped, announced he was going to step down on Friday. So Tim Cook, Bob Iger, McMillan, stepping down. Is, is it the end of the line for these superstar CEOs? I think it might just be at the end of this generation, right? You have another generation rising up. It's a new generation rising up. And I would say for Tim Cook, I don't think there's a reason he has to step down, but at the same time,

[01:14:50] if you're looking at potentially wanting to do other things with the rest of your life, right? Cause he is still a young guy and he could still do plenty of other things, whatever he wants to do. And, and that could still remain being involved in Apple in some way or whatever, leaving when you have not just been CEO longer than your successor was, but you were able to multiply the company's valuation by X number of times and you've had all these successes. I don't think is a bad thing. I think that the same time,

[01:15:20] I think that a lot of people have been critical about Apple about, and I think very fairly so is that the product direction, especially in the last number of years, I mean, it's very good on the Mac side and, and, and they've, they've, you know, put out some, some interesting new products, but like Apple intelligence is late. And it's behind and it's not good. You know, a vision pro massive flop, right? Like the, the, the things that, you know, it is, it's terrible. And, and it was a, you know, basically like a, you know, sign concept that, you know,

[01:15:49] was released to the public and that nothing ever really, that was a mistake, wasn't it? I think the time, it started a clock ticking that Apple wasn't prepared to, Can Apple do well without Tim cook? How important is he to their continued success? Um, he's, I think the thing about Tim cook, that's interesting is that he was the supply chain guy. Right. And when he came on, like people were like, who dis?

[01:16:14] So I don't necessarily think it matters that the general public knows who, who this man is. I would not say that he has a cult of personality around him. Like Tim, Tim cook it. He a little dry, not in a bad way. He's just responsible and very nice guy. His biggest flaw is that he's not Steve jobs. Right. Yeah. He doesn't have the charisma of, but what, but what I would say, I mean, John Ternus is a product guy. That's the thing that I think that is, to me would be invigorating.

[01:16:43] See what grokopedia says about John Ternus. Oh God, no. But to your point, Christina, I do think they have a little bit of a, a product crisis at this point. Cause you know, if you think about the Steve job days, like there was a very clear direction and you didn't have to agree with their direction, but there was like one, you knew what it was. Yeah. Well, you knew what it was. And now you look at the product skews and you're just like, I don't know what an iPad to buy. I'm sorry. There's like 20,000 iPads. I don't know. In fact,

[01:17:11] there probably isn't that much of a difference between the, nothing and the iPad pro. They're just so similar. And there's many. Yeah. Yes. Yes. It's, it's impossible. I'm trying to buy my mom an iPad and I'm literally going through this problem. Like, what do I get her? Just get her the most expensive phones. Even the phones, it used to be like you had one phone per generation. And then you had one small phone, one big phone. Now there's four fricking phones. Now there might be a foldable.

[01:17:37] And I spent a whole month and a half trying to figure out what phone I was going to, which one did you get? Because I just bought it yesterday and I got the iPhone 17 pro regular size. And you got the blue regular size. The blue, I got the blue one. You didn't get the blue one. I didn't get orange because so much of my wardrobe is purple. And that is a bear. That's a little bit of a curse. Um, I really like the orange go together. Is that true? If they can, but if you want to get sports team color,

[01:18:07] I think that's a combo. It's giving Dunkin' Donuts a little too hard. Oh my God. FedEx. Oh my God. It's FedEx. It's Denny's looks. Oh, it is. It's FedEx. It is. And I already had this nice little purple, um, wallet thing. And I'm like, that's not going to go with the orange quite as well. I brought it to an Apple store and I was testing it and everything. Good for you. That's smart. And you didn't get the biggest one. You got, you got the little pro. I, this was a month and a half of testing, uh, just because I was like,

[01:18:36] I think the perfect font size is 6.5. Going to 6.7 is tolerable. Going to 6.3 is tolerable. 6.9. 6.9. My hand hurts. I have big hands for a lady. I have piano hands, but like I, I, I write a lot. I type a lot. I, I journal a lot. I got to preserve the wrist. And, um, I had gotten to a point with my 14 pro max where I had a little wristlet kind of like a, a Wiimote wristlet on it.

[01:19:04] And sometimes it felt like a weapon where I was going to kill someone accidentally. Well, it's like, I was like, you know what? 6.3. It's a little smaller than I would like, but I can live with it. And, um, I just can't do 6.9. Well, I've got something for you actually. Uh, you might want to look at the new Apple iPhone pocket. Good Lord. I lost my damn mind. I'm so mad. I couldn't get one. We are an opposite. We are opposite ends of the spectrum. We are. And I, and I,

[01:19:34] and I love and respect that about you so much. And I'm glad that you were saying, and I am not, but I, if I had not had a severe neck injury that prevents, me from being able to get in like the queue, I would have one of those things. I'm so mad. I won't pay stock X price. why? Girl, why? It's a sock. I know, but, but, but I, but, but I liked the long one. I liked the one that I could like sling. You could knit that for $16. I'm sure you could, you know, I'm pretty sure I saw someone. I'm not going to knit anything.

[01:20:04] You could pay someone on Etsy. I'm sure there are Etsy dupes out there. Just because of ZSamiya. Probably right. Like they're, they're already out there. I'm a hype beast. It's, it's the allure of the whole thing. And it was only $250. Only $250. It was $250. It is. It is, of course, ZSamiya design. The guy who did Steve Jobs, uh, turtlenecks. If that means anything to you. It's so dumb. Uh, on apple.com now it's,

[01:20:34] uh, get something special. It's a holiday gift to hold your. Absolutely not. No, don't, huh? No, no. So my best friend is, is a knitter the day of, she was just like, I know you're not going to, but just so you know, don't buy it. I can make it. I can make it. And I can make it for like. Pennies to $20. Pennies, pennies. And she's like, the design's not even that hard for me to knit. And I was like, first of all, you don't have to knit one for me.

[01:21:04] People are pointing out that it is the same design as the Borat mankini. Um, well, that's curse. I wouldn't recommend wearing it that way. No, no, that I don't want to think about that. Oh my God, Victoria, please make sore videos with this. No, I could, but. Miyake sake. Um, it, it features a singular 3d knitted construction.

[01:21:33] That is a result of research and development. It's just knitted. It's just knitted. You know, I can do 3d knitting too. Cause I'm in 3d life. It's pretty funny. It is pretty. It's a strange thing for now. They do have it in purple. Okay. That's the smaller one. That's pretty good. Yeah. Purple's great. You can carry that around your wrist. You see like that, like a little purse, like a little, yes, little purse for you. No. Okay.

[01:22:04] I can defend the cross body. I can defend the cross body chain that they came out with that, you know, you may or may not like it. I can defend it. I had a similar, I had a bandolier, which is basically what that is for a couple of years that I, I cannot, I can't with the puck. I can't. There's a sock is a sock. Just buy a sock and stick your iPhone in a sock. And you have the same thing. It's the same thing. It's a sock.

[01:22:31] Somebody has in our discord chat room put together. The mankini and the sock. And there is a stunning resemblance. I must say. That's just so cursed. You don't need AI to make that. You don't need AI. Just photoshop. It's cursed on its own. Yeah. We were all a little puzzled when they announced that. That's just, I mean, it's a weird collab, but at the same time, like I don't, I can't think about how their marketing stuff works.

[01:23:01] It definitely was, it was not on my like list of things, but I wasn't, I mean, like, yeah, I'm a hype. I'm not really mad that I couldn't spend $250 on one. It's fine. But yeah, I, you may not know Victoria, but Christina has a collection of, emerge from defunct companies like Theranos. You know, I love that. That's, that's just being a history collector. It is. It's history. What is, what is your latest piece? Uh,

[01:23:31] Christina, anything new? God, do I have anything? No, I was trying to think. You got the Theranos one you were looking for. Yeah. I got the Theranos thing that I was looking for. I have things from like FTX from Silicon Valley bank from like Washington mutual, uh, Enron. Um, it was, it was a big one. Um, fire festival, um, uh, which was great. I got like official fire festival, merch, uh, movie pass. Um, what I did recently. Oh, yeah. Oh, this was good. Movie pass is back by the way. I know it is, but, but it still makes it, it doesn't make it any less funny to still wear a movie pass shirt in public.

[01:24:01] Um, genuinely people go crazy. They're like, Oh my God. Why? Like I have an internet explorer shirt. I'm like an open, like I will. Which Theranos thing did you get? You got a mug? Uh, no, um, actually somebody got me like, it was like a, a fleece, like one of the Columbia fleeces. Yeah. It was expensive. And it was, it was a fake blood drop on it. No, um, it had the logo. So it was just kind of like, you know, it was not the Patagonia. It's the Columbia, but it's like the Patagonia. So it's good. Um, no, what did I get recently? Oh,

[01:24:31] a friend of mine was at a thrift store in New York and sent me and we, and we, I checked tag. Now this doesn't mean that it couldn't still been a dupe of something, but it looks authentic, but there was like some sort of like 1999, like internets, like world's fair thing, like that Microsoft put on or something. And it's hilarious. And it was like $19. So my friend got it for me. Nice. Um, yeah. Nice. Yeah. It's gotta, somebody has got to keep track of this stuff. You know, it's going to be all, you know, it's like the internet archive for merch. I agree.

[01:25:01] I agree. And, and a thing like this will, though it hits two areas for me. One is ridiculous for all the reasons you said, Victoria, it's so dumb, but then it's also like the hype beast part of me is like, okay, but I kind of want this. Like, I'm still mad that I didn't buy the $400 Apple book, you know, the coffee table book, because now I can't get it and I'll have to spend way more on it than, and I'm not going to, but I should have just bought it when it came out just to have it. Um, I should probably just be less of a consumer is the real truth. Honestly, I should just be better with my money and be less.

[01:25:30] I feel like that coffee table book will be in bookstores at a reduced price. No, no. Apple sold them and stopped selling it. And that was it. And the ones that are on eBay are ridiculously expensive. And I'm not doing that. But, um, here's another version of the, uh, Apple iPhone sock, particularly for this panel. Thank you for putting me in the purple one. I appreciate that too. I I'm a purple girly. I love purple as well, but,

[01:26:00] but I had to get the orange phone. Cause I was just like, I needed everybody to know that. And not only that I got an orange case, so I am doubly orange, the orange. I don't like orange, but I like that orange. Yeah. It's not my favorite color, but there's something about it. It just shouts. It does. It's it shouts color saturation for the first fricking time on the pro lineup. That was the thing right now. I did love when, what was it? Was it the, was it the 15? It was the 14 when they had the purple color. Yeah. Okay.

[01:26:27] So I had the purple pro and I was mad about it. Cause it was not proper. I agree. I agree. It needs to be saturated. I agree, but it was, but it was still an improvement. I'm still mad about the elimination of rose gold. I will never be over that. I will never be over that ever. You and my spouse. He literally said that today. He was just going like, uh, ranting against the orange one, just because he was just like, it's never going to be rose gold. They, they, they, they've never recovered over the elimination of rose gold. Really?

[01:26:58] That he's holding out hope for rose gold. Every year, every year when the phones come out, he just looks at the colors and he goes, there's no rose gold. Really? I'll just get, yeah, no, it's all about the rose gold. No, my spouse and Christina are the two people I know who are just like holding the torch for the rose gold, um, to come back. But you know, it was a great color. I like the colorful colors, the colorways that really say like, that's why I agree. It's show. It's orange. Well, and, and I, and we, I can't remember like the,

[01:27:28] the blue, like, um, my, my husband got this. Did he get the silver? I think he got the silver. Um, he got the regular size blue. It's just not, it's not, it's not Pacifica blue though. They peaked at Pacifica blue on the 12th. I just gotta say. Yes. That was a great blue. Um, but, but yeah, but it was, it was one of those, um, those things like Chrysler Pacifica. It was, it was nice. It was like,

[01:27:57] it was 13. It was the 13. And they called it 12 is the one with the Pacifica. And they called it Pacifica. Yeah. I thought, I thought, did you call it Pacifica or did Apple call it Pacifica? Oh, they did. They call it Pacific blue. You're right. Yeah. Yeah. Pacific blue. That's a nice color. It's a great blue. Yeah. Every blue. Yeah. Oh, that one. Okay. I was thinking of the light blue that they did for the 13. I think I had this. I think I had this. Yeah. I had that phone. Okay. Cause,

[01:28:26] cause I had that one with just in the, the goldish colorway. Um, because it, it still had, you know, rosy tense and I wasn't ready to give up on like the fact that they've taken away my beloved, but I have to say like, we've been begging them to do bold colors. They did at least give us two fairly bold colors. The orange is very bold. It's extremely bold. I, I wish that I'd had more time like you did Victoria in terms of like the sizing. Cause I, I've always been, I've been getting the pro max since they've had the option. Ironically,

[01:28:53] because I have small hands and if they're all going to be too big, I might as well get the best battery life and, and like, you know, biggest screen possible. Cause I'm going to have to use two hands regardless, even with a mini, let me just go all in. That said, my only thing is by making this slightly bigger than they made like the, the 16, I do feel it more. And I'm like, you know, if I could have done it again, I probably would have just gotten the regular pro size, which I've never had any like need to go smaller than that before.

[01:29:23] I have bad eyes. So I was using the pro and the larger phones for several years because I could really crank up that text. I do that too. Cause as an old man, I want to have the biggest text on the screen. I want the biggest, I want you to be able to read my text messages from Guam. that's, that's, that's how I, how little I want to strain my eyes. But, um, basically I saw the, the 17 pro max, uh, at the Apple event. I held it in person. I went,

[01:29:52] I think this is too big for my hand. And if I don't want, I, I, I already have the little Wiimote thing on the 14 pro max. I don't need this thing hitting my face when I'm tired at night, uh, in bed, trying to watch a video and I fall asleep and my phone hits me in the face. I don't need to have a black eye because of my phone. So, um, while I was testing the Apple watches, Apple had given me a test, iPhone 17. And I was like, well, you know, what if I went super low tech? What if I didn't get a pro?

[01:30:20] Did you think about the air at all? No, because I don't believe in one camera being four cameras. That's some, that's some marketing. Hoo-ha. Absolutely not. No, you know who that phone is for? I figured it out. Like it was, it was funny because I, because during the Apple event, I was in New York, um, at an offsite, um, at a deep mind actually. And I was talking with some colleagues, including some people who used to work at Apple. And we were talking, I was like, I'm trying to figure out who this phone is for. And then it hit me and I went, Oh,

[01:30:46] this is a phone for like male tech executives of a certain age who don't care who either are using this as a secondary phone or as a primary, because they don't take photos and they don't care about having to have, you know, good battery life or anything else, because it doesn't matter to them because they have someone else managing their life for them. And, and that's who the phone is for. And I think that is why it has not sold because as pretty as it is, and it is gorgeous. And, and, and I, I,

[01:31:13] I'm very excited about what it means for a future foldable for most people. The iPhone 17, I think is actually the best phone this year. It's a great phone. The price is great. The, the specs are fantastic. Like I think the iPhone 17 is actually an amazing phone. I wish it was 17 plus, but yeah. I just spent about last two months using the loaner iPhone 17 just for testing. Cause I really wanted to know whether I could live with the smaller size screen.

[01:31:40] And I wanted to know if I could live without the third telephoto lens. And yes, I can live with the smaller screen. I cannot live without the telephoto lens because there were many stray cats in Italy that I wanted to take pictures of. Right. Zoom in on their furry little faces. And I, I failed frequently with the iPhone 17. They were furry little potatoes and I would have to grab a pro phone out of one of my family members pockets and be like, I need this photo of this cat stat. So yeah,

[01:32:09] that's, that's how I ended up deciding. The 8X is really amazing actually. It really is. Yeah. And I use it all. And I go to concerts. Yeah. I go to concerts, but I don't pay for the good seats. So I need to zoom in and see what these, uh, little dancing K-pop boys look like. So how many eras concerts did you see? Zero. How many did you see Christina? Four. She's winning. How many K-pop concerts have you seen Victoria? Yeah.

[01:32:40] And the last year, three. See, see, see. It's priorities. It's just priorities. It's priorities. It is. Did you see Blackpink, um, um, in Queens when they were there in July? No, no. I saw Stray Kids twice. And then I saw Kai from XO, uh, there. I I'm kind of into the boy bands because yeah, I don't know why I am just like seeking an old past where I used to listen. I never saw the Backstreet Boys in concert. So I saw them at the, I saw them at the sphere. Oh, at the sphere.

[01:33:10] This is the comeback tour. Yeah. No, they did. They did a 25th anniversary thing for millennium. It was amazing. It was one of the most incredible shows I've ever seen in my life. Like if I will say this right now, I will sell everything that I own. If Taylor Swift does like a residency at the sphere, because I know I'll have to, because the, the, the pricing will be so absurd because there's only 3000, you know, like seats, but no, I am. And I was off of a red eye from India. So I flew from Bangalore to London to Vegas. I had, I think you did the show that night.

[01:33:40] Didn't you? No, I did the following, uh, no, that, that, that was for the heiress tour where I went from, where I went from Seoul to Seattle to Vancouver. You did this a lot. Okay. Well, actually that's how I knew that I couldn't, I could manage it is because I, I did twit and then went to the arrows concert, um, despite having just been on like a 17 hour flight. Um, and, and, and, and I was fine. It was, that was the last show of the, it was, it was the final show. And, and, and I, and I, and I had the opportunity to go and I went, but no, but I saw, I saw Backstreet Boys. I'd already had the tickets booked.

[01:34:10] Fortunately, it was the following night, but I arrived in Vegas at like seven o'clock, like Friday, like after traveling, I think it was 26 hours. I think to, you know, so the sphere is a good place to see a show. It seems like it would be, seems like amazing. And I think it depends on what they do with it. What they did with it was incredible. They had a lot of like moving kind of background stuff. And the best way I can describe it, it was like, I was in 3d, like using 3d glasses, but I didn't have them on. And so it's coming out. Yeah. But, but you're not wearing glasses, but it looks like everything is coming at you.

[01:34:39] There's rumbles in the seats. The seating is, I don't think there's probably a bad seat in the house. They have it really well arranged. And the, the set list, I'm sure that it was prerecorded. I don't care. They, they, they were doing some live singing. You could tell they'd choreograph stuff, but you could see, you know, just emotions coming around. It was just, it was an incredible time. Everybody wore white. Everybody was like on the same page, the program. It was not like weirdo, like overly invested Backstreet Boy fans, which I was a little bit afraid of at first. It was like, mostly like just casuals like me who haven't thought about them, you know,

[01:35:09] in 20 years and, but had the time of their life. And I remember seeing a video of them emerging from the stage. So they had to come up. They have this incredible. Yes. Video playing. And you're not really paying attention to the little stage down there. And then just kind of appear. And they just kind of appear. They just kind of come up and, and then they, there are various other things happen. Like there are various other platform moving things throughout the show. Like it was really, it's good to use that venue properly. So it sounds like, yeah, yeah.

[01:35:38] Who would you like to see there? Who would you like to see there? Victoria? XO. XO. That's my K-pop boy band. Uh, third gen. But they kill it. They would, except they're, it's not easy being an XO fan just because they're in a lot of legal disputes at the moment. And there's nine members. Oh, are they, are they fighting their label? Yes. Uh, they are fighting, like K-pop label stuff is, is nuts, but they're fighting the label. So they're having an album come out next month, but it,

[01:36:07] there's rumors there's only going to be six versus nine. And, you know, they, the Korean men have to go through the military service. So they just finished, all the members have just finished their military service. The first time in like six years, everyone's like, Oh, reunion. Oh no, we're not getting all of them. So it's, it's very, it's a very trying time. Thank you for your prayers. Uh, but yeah, I would love to see them at the sphere because, uh, that seems amazing. And I haven't been to the sphere yet.

[01:36:37] Every single time I like, I go to CES, I see the sphere. I wave at the sphere. And you never have a chance. Right. I never have a chance to go. No, because you're doing too many other things. I really wanted to see, and I hope that they continue, but I really want to, and I haven't had a chance and I'm not going to AWS reinvent this year. I don't think, I hope not. Um, uh, nothing against that event. I just don't really want to go to Vegas, um, in, um, in December, but, um, uh, I really wanted to see like the, the wizard of Oz cut that they did. They did the wizard of Oz. They,

[01:37:06] they kind of out painted. Yeah. This is the 1939 wizard of Oz and they out painted the film. Yeah. They used a sphere. Yeah. They used Google cloud and, and, and some of the, the Gemini models for it. And like, I really would love to see that experience. It's one of my favorite movies ever. Backstreet spec. They're going to be there day after Christmas through February. Uh, yes. Yeah. They did a second residency. In fact, it's funny. I, cause I convinced I went first and then I convinced a few of my girlfriends to go. And some of us are like, should we go a second time? So we're, we're thinking about it. What are the dates?

[01:37:36] Uh, the day after Christmas to the day after Valentine's. So you can, and it's every weekend. So they do it like, like, like Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Cause they're old. Damn it. I'm not gonna. CES. That's not. It is during CES. It is. If you stayed a little longer, you could, uh, you could go to the show. If you stay through Sunday, if you stay through Sunday, Victoria, it would be worth it. Or come early. We are. I am going to be there the Saturday before CES. If you're going to be there Saturday before CES, you need to look into it.

[01:38:06] Cause I'm telling you, like, I'm going to take a break. So Victoria can buy tickets. You're watching this week in tech, uh, with Victoria song, who is a little preoccupied right now. She's the senior reviewer at the verge and the wonderful Christina Warren back in town after her year. Can I add, we might be, when we come back, we'll talk a little bit about deep mind. Cause I don't know what you can talk about, but, uh, that must've been. I learned so much. They're an amazing.

[01:38:35] I'm it's amazing what they're doing. It's really. Yeah. Good. We'll talk about that in a bit. And a lot more you're watching this week in tech, our show today brought to you by Z scaler, the world's largest cloud security platform. You know, we talk so much about AI on this show, on our show about AI intelligent machines. And it's pretty clear that AI is an amazing boon for business, that the potential rewards are too great to ignore.

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[01:41:24] even as threats and risks evolve. Learn more at Zscaler.com slash security. That's Zscaler.com slash security. We thank them so much for their support of this week in tech. Yeah, I'm looking at this fear schedule. There's nobody I'm really dying to see. Somebody said, what if Pink Floyd did the wall there? That would be cool. Yes. And I think they did do something. They did. I don't, I don't know if it was pink. It was the wall,

[01:41:52] but I know that they did something with the Grateful Dead. Yeah. And they've done a couple of other things. Um, from what I, the reviews that I've read, and obviously everybody's musical tastes are different, but from the reviews that I've read, Backstreet Boys was to date the most impressive use of the whole venue. Like, even if you're not into like the music or whatever, like they did the best shop with like the tech and taking advantage of it. But I know like Pearl Jam did a thing. And like, I think that it's cool. Like as the space evolves and as they learn to use things more,

[01:42:19] I think we'll see more and more really interesting applications of it as a venue, which is really exciting. And then I personally love it because the Venetian is my favorite, like casino on the strip and it's far away from everything else, but I'd much prefer to stay there cause I like the rooms better. And it's close to the, you know, can you walk to the sphere from the Venetian? Oh yeah. There's the, there's a connecting bridge. It's literally part of the Venetian CES. It's super nice. And so, um, God, I remember every January going to CES and seeing them build that thing for years.

[01:42:49] First, it was just a pit. They slowly, the walls started to come up. It's nice to see it, uh, operational. The wizard of Oz is going to be a longterm thing there. They're going to use that in between shows. So I think they anticipate family is going to see that and so forth. Uh, all right. Enough of the sphere. Enough of the sphere. Did you get your tickets, Victoria? No, I'm being good. I'll think about it some more. Think about it some more. If you can, if you can find somebody else who might be there with you and like,

[01:43:19] see if you can like go in with somebody, especially if you're already going to be there, you might be able to get like, you'll have to pay for like lodging or whatever. Like, cause that, that was the biggest thing. Like lodging costs as much, like cost more than the tickets. So we went two years ago to see the formula one, the first formula one race. Oh yeah. That was amazing. Expensive. I really wanted to go to that for the hello kitty club, but like there was no way. The hello kitty. What? They had a hello kitty formula one collab in Vegas. And there's actually now a whole hello kitty by formula one, like collection. And that's amazing.

[01:43:47] Are they trying to attract young girls to the formula one fan fan base? Leo, are you not familiar with the fact that like the largest growing user base of like formula one fans are like younger women, like young, far younger than me because of the, the Netflix show. Cause of drive to survive. Yes. Yes. Well, it is true that the drivers are all young and gorgeous there. It seems like they're almost hired for their looks. Well, I mean, what's happened is, is they,

[01:44:15] they all know the backstory and the lore. And so they become invested in a way that's different than other things. Watching drive to survive. Yeah. Yeah. Same. And actually what originally got me at, cause my husband's always been into formula one and I've always been like, whatever, but I saw the documentary Sina, which was directed by the same guy who directed Amy. Very good. Yeah. And that documentary. And I saw that, I think it came out in 2011 and it was so tragic. But when I saw that documentary, that completely changed my entire perspective on the sport.

[01:44:42] And I think the drive to survive is the same sort of thing where it kind of unlocks in you and you go, Oh, there are these other layers happening. And there is this other, you know, stuff going on that you don't get with a lot of like, are you happy about Apple acquiring the rights to it? Yeah. I mean, it'll make it cheaper for me to like, I already buy F1 TV. I don't have to pay for two subscriptions. Right. That's, that's kind of how I play about it. I hope they keep the team. I hope they keep all of this different screens. I hope in fact,

[01:45:10] they apply some of their tech know-how to make it even better. And maybe they'll put it on the vision pro. I would actually buy a vision pro to watch the formula one race. That that's the only reason I could think of to buy a vision pro. Maybe that's why they bought the rights. Three quarters of a billion dollars they spent for that. Let's see. Maybe they'll use the profits from the iPhone pocket to defray that cost. No good Lord. AMD. Hey, congratulations, AMD. Uh,

[01:45:40] their quarterly results are out. They are now 25% of all X 80 chips, 33% of all desktop systems. Big red is, uh, is slowly, but surely taking over from Intel, which is slowly, but surely collapsing. Just the saddest March to death from Intel. It's just like every year. It's just so sad, but honestly, I wouldn't buy it. I don't, I wouldn't buy another Intel PC.

[01:46:10] I have an AMD, uh, Strix halo. I love it. I just, I just wouldn't buy another one. Uh, and Apple, you know, that was probably the nail in the coffin when Apple said, look, we can design better Silicon. And they did. And they shook the market up like crazy. Um, yeah, it's, it's kind of sad. It's just like kind of hard to trace back where Intel just started falling apart on every single level, but you know, sure did. They missed out on mobile. Yep.

[01:46:38] But at least they had like the computers and then now they don't have the computers so much anymore. So it's really, it's really nuts. It is. Yeah. Cause it's Intel, right? Like, like we, I mean, you know, but they, they were pushing so many different directions and, and focused on so many different areas and, and really took their eye off the ball. I think though, like Lisa Sue deserves a lot of credit for coming into Andy and really addressing, really addressing their, their, their challenges. And, you know, she had a strong background,

[01:47:08] you know, she's, she's incredibly smart, incredibly technical, and she knows semiconductors really well. And she came in and I think she looked at kind of like where their product line was and where they needed to be. And, you know, Ryzen and, and the whole, like kind of chiplet system and whatnot, she really got ahead of that. Right? Like, I think that she kind of figured out. Okay. And because they could have gone one of two paths, they could have really doubled down on, on GPUs, which might in some ways have been good, but to be honest with you, I don't think they were in a position to, to compete with the video. And I don't think they would have done well, you know, if they'd really like double triple down on that,

[01:47:38] or she could go after making the, the, the chips better. And by doing that, not only disrupting, you know, we saw it in the consumer space first, but then it went into the, you know, the, the, the, the server space, which has been Intel's, you know, thing for forever. Right. And, and I think that coupled with processing changing, right. With Intel, not even to get their nanometers down long, low enough, right. Like they weren't able to get that performance on the chips that, that AMD was.

[01:48:07] And that was even before Apple and, and, and everybody else starts to come in. And then NVIDIA, you know, proves that at this point, you know, GPUs are more important in some ways than CPUs for, for more and more tasks. And like an Intel who's, you know, started and stopped GPU efforts, multiple times. They don't have anything to even go there. Right. Like I, I had this question with people sometimes where it's like, you know, I might've even said this on the show before, but like, I have this, it's a fun party question. Like what company has screwed up, screwed themselves more Intel or Boeing, right?

[01:48:37] Like which one, right. Because it's just, it's really sad. Cause yeah. Cause your point, yeah, they, they, they lost mobile and they lost that for a lot of reasons, but that was surmountable. Like that was not an area that they had to win. I think that, I don't know if it was hubris. I don't know if it was, you know, just technical things not coming together. I think a lot of it was leadership because again, like Lisa Sue, like really, really dialed in when she joined AMD and like made great strategic decision after great strategic decision. And you know,

[01:49:08] it's such a fumble in some senses too, because you know, when you talk these component companies outside of the nerds that we are, normal people know Intel, you know, like they're marketing into bump, bump, bump. Like, you know, it was, you know that. Yeah. It doesn't matter if you're like one day old, it's like Beyonce, you know it, you know it. So to, to, to just like Beyonce. Wow. She's not wrong though. She's not wrong though. There was a,

[01:49:37] there's a period of time where I was writing copy for Qualcomm, just, you know, being a young writer, trying to cut my teeth and get in the business. And the thing I used to always joke about was how much of a chip on their shoulder Qualcomm had about how no one knew who Qualcomm was. It was one of those things where they were like, we want to get people caring about modems. And I was like, good luck to you with that outside of a certain niche. But, you know, they were just always so mad that Intel's,

[01:50:07] name recognition was so strong. So to go from that to a point where like, you know, it's such a fumble if you really think about it. It is so hard. If you play that, people know what that is, right? You do, you do, you know it immediately. I've said, I've said for years, like, I think that them owning their own fabs has been obviously a great benefit. And, and I, and I don't think it was a mistake for them to continue to do that. What I do think they should have done. Ideally when they,

[01:50:34] when it was clear Adam and their mobile stuff wasn't going to work because they had the opportunity to do this. They could have, they bought a company. I think that was, it was an arm licensee and there might've been some legal regulation stuff around it, but you know that that would have been surmountable because Intel, they should have become an arm licensee and then send some fabulous designs. And it had that as like an option and then been able to pivot into that if they needed to for lower powered devices, because one of the big things, you know, at least on the consumer side, you know, in desktops, it was fine. You get a big enough, you know, PSU, whatever, but on mobile, like,

[01:51:04] and you know, this Victoria, cause you've tested way more laptops than I have. Like the battery life in the power performance was just awful. Right. I mean, it was so bad that Apple had to literally make their own chips. I think earlier than they probably would have wanted to, right? Like they were happy to make them on, on, you know, for mobile devices, but they really had to like turn all their corners into prioritizing the, the, you know, laptop chips because they were awful. Right. They saw the writing on the wall. They knew. I mean, well, I mean, and granted, Apple could have made design concessions to make the thermals and what better,

[01:51:34] but it didn't change the underlying issue that like those chips just, you know, were, were constrained and, and, and had problems in certain ways and weren't going to the next level. Whereas AMD first in desktop, and then they got into mobile or laptops was doing better. And then Apple Silicon and now Qualcomm, some of their stuff too, like is just leaps and bounds in terms of like, you know, like power to performance and Intel, even their newest ones, cause I bought one of the, the ultra, you know, seven, whatever things that promised, that it was going to be better. And it's not. Um,

[01:52:04] I mean, you know, I guess it's better than whatever, you know, the, the core stuff was, but, but it, it's not demonstrably. So, and either, you know, it, it just still feels like, you know, a traditional, like, well, and now ironically, Qualcomm is the, is the big player in windows machines with co-pilot plus PCs. And I'm seeing a lot of, it's so funny. Yeah. It's so funny going from 2013. Totally. I bet that has, I was going to say that. That's be so funny for you. Their only business. Copy. And now. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:52:32] Their only business was a Pat being a patent troll was, well, we got all these patents and that's going to be our business. That was literally there. The Snapdragon X and the elite, and now the next generation, which is coming really great battery life performance. It's almost as if they looked at what Apple was doing and said, wait a minute, why aren't we doing that? Well, in fact, that's exactly what happened is they, they bought, I think it was a Nufia. I can't remember. Nufia. Yes. Nufia. Yeah. They bought Nufia and Nufia was, was created by some of the creators of Apple. Yeah.

[01:53:00] They basically bought the Apple design team. That's what we were talking about with Massimo. You, you know, you want to be competitive. You hire the people away. You offer more money. And Apple did that too. I mean, they, they hired other people too, but, but no, but I mean, they, when they acquired PA semi, like that was the basis for what became, you know, Apple Silicon and, or, you know, eventually they also hired some really, really smart ship designers and a lot of other people and worked really hard, but like, yeah, I mean,

[01:53:29] they acquired that license and they acquired that. A lot of that team led to the creation of the, the, the A series, you know, chips. And so, which, you know, became eventually Apple Silicon. So that's how you have to do it sometimes. And I think it's great that Qualcomm has, has done that. Yeah. I'm in the chat. Eat the oligarchs is, is saying that Intel sold their arm business in 2006. Yes. But they also, I think there was something else they'd acquired, I think after that, that they could have still done, but regardless,

[01:53:58] I think getting rid of that license business was in retrospect, even in 2006, that was a mistake because you did have arm processors in, you know, phones at the time. And they were just so committed to the Adam train, which, you know, just never took off. And I don't know. I also have a Strix halo system. I have the framework desktop. That's what I have. I love it. I love it so much. I love it. It's such a great little machine. And do you run local AIs on it? Yes. That's exactly what I'm looking for.

[01:54:28] What models are you, are you liking right now? Gemma, I think has some great models and, and obviously I used to work on that with, with some of those folks. And so I have a lot of love for the, for the Gemma team, but I run the Quinn models. I run, you know, like the models. Yes, it does. Some of the new Quinn stuff is really good. I have a MacBook pro that has 128 gigs of Ram. And, and I can do a lot of that on my MacBook pro, but the, the nice thing about having like the, you know, the framework is like, I could basically just make it my dedicated, like local LL machine.

[01:54:58] Yep. That's what I'm doing. I'm using open AI's GPT OSS 120. That's great. That's a great model. Very big. The fact that I can run that giant model. That's the thing, right? I mean, obviously the, the Mac is a little bit faster. In some ways, because the unified memory is, is faster, but I'm really interested. Apple has such an opportunity here because they are running some, you know, they're not using CUDA. They're not using, you know, no, but they are running some really amazing hardware with dedicated AI

[01:55:28] circuitry. And as you say, unified memory, and there really is an opportunity for Apple to really look good in the local AI space. Oh, for sure. Well, what's been, of course, they're going to use Google's, uh, they're spending a billion dollars a year to use Google's. Yeah. They use Google's model. Uh, I don't know if it's Gemini. What are they using? Gemini. Gemini is what the rumor is. And, and, and who knows if that's, you know, what that circumstance is. I mean, look, they early on, you know, people forget this, like the, the iPhone. part of the reason Steve Jobs was so upset that Eric Schmidt was on

[01:55:57] the board and, you know, they, they, they, they, they hated Google. Yeah. But the default apps on the original iPhone, YouTube was a dedicated app, right? Google was the default search engine, right? Like Google maps was maps. I remember waiting in line for the original iPhone. I was sitting behind, and this was up in Petaluma. They'd obviously come up because they wanted to avoid the lines in San Francisco or Mountain View, three guys from Google, uh, who were buying the original iPhone. They said, yeah, we're up all night last night making Google reader work on the iPhone.

[01:56:26] Google was very committed to the iPhone platform in the, at the beginning. I mean, there was a big part of Google put a lot of effort with Apple help. I think the rumor was Apple helped with the YouTube. they did. Yeah. When the thousand percent they did. But my, my point was being that like for an app for a phone that did not have apps on it, right. Three of the default things, like the default search engine was Google. Um, YouTube was a dedicated app. Maps was Google maps. So they've been partners despite the, uh, the, the battle over Android. Well, no, no, no,

[01:56:56] that then led to the battle. that was the original partnerships. Eric Schmidt, who is the CEO of Google was on the board of directors at Apple. Right. He sees this realizes that app, well, this is according to, um, Fred, um, Fred's book, um, name of which I can't think about right, uh, right now. It has a dog is, it's in the title. It'll come to me. Um, but, um, but Fred Fogelstein's book about, uh, the history of the battle basically says that, um, you know, Google had been working on a Blackberry clone, um, because they'd bought,

[01:57:25] um, uh, Andy, um, their first Google phone was going to be basically a Blackberry clone. And when they saw the iPhone, they completely switch. They said, stop. They literally stopped the development. Literally stopped. And, and then, and then when Steve Jobs got wind of that, Eric Schmidt, you know, had to recuse himself and then eventually leave the board. And then that led to a bunch of the lawsuits in the cold war. And then in 2013, I think it was like, they, you know, kicked, you know, Google maps off and was originally called dog fight.

[01:57:55] They now call it battle of the Titans. For some reason, they figured nobody, nobody would know what dog fight was. Um, but, but that, yeah, that, that book is, is, is fantastic. I have to read that. I have not read it. Yeah. It's a really good book. Although it's ancient history now they're, they're back in bed together. Well, I mean, again, like, you know, enemy of my friend is my enemy. I mean, it's interesting too, because if you look at like, it was always this weird thing. It's like, okay, we won't be on the phone necessarily the same way. And we, you know, we'll kick you off the default positions, but no,

[01:58:25] we would still very much like to get however many billions of dollars, you know, you will pay us for the default search, you know, engine position and other stuff. And so, look, I have to assume that the reporting, I have no inside information at all. And I don't even know if this deal is real, but I have to assume that the reporting from, you know, Mark Gurman and others is true that they've, you know, done kind of an internal bake off and figured out, okay, what companies can we use to fortify Siri? And at a certain point, you know,

[01:58:54] a lot of the models are fairly similar and maybe it's comes down to who can we have, who do we have a existing relationship with of some type or, or who do we feel like could be more properly able to fit into our data centers better? Because that's some of the reporting is that not only will the model be, you know, a white labeled version of Gemini, but it will run completely in Apple's, you know, data centers. And, and that's obviously means I'm sure there'll be modifications to, to how the, the TPUs or whatever systems they would have set up would work. And,

[01:59:23] and maybe even running directly on Apple Silicon, who knows, that would be an interesting thing to think about too, to your earlier point about, you know, using these things to, to run the, the, the inference and run the stuff themselves. Um, we'll see, but, um, I just want a better Siri. I don't care who powers it. Lord almighty. If I could get a better Siri, that would just, oh, you know, testing Apple intelligence has been a test in patients. It's just, well, speaking of tests and patients,

[01:59:52] I don't want to use Amazon's echo, even, uh, a word plus. I don't want to use it. I really don't want to use Google's voice assistant. I think, I guess I'm going to be getting Gemini in my Google devices soon. I don't know when I want to, I would like something privacy forward. I would like to use home kit, but I, but it needs to have a working AI. It needs a working Siri. I mean, listen, viable workout buddy sucks on the Apple watch. Uh, you left that on. I turned that off immediately.

[02:00:23] Uh, I left it on for a little bit. And then I was just like, I thank you for telling me that it's so annoying because it'll try and tell you like, Oh, you listened to this music while you had this milestone. And so you hit a mile in your run. And they're like, you were listening to stray kids when you hit that run. And I was like, yeah, I know. Cause it's still playing the same song. Um, you know, so, uh, I got, I gotta say, I,

[02:00:52] I just, I just really want Siri to. It's kind of just like a, it's like, it's just got the same problem. Siri does. Right. It's just not smart. No, it's not. It's, I mean, to, to be fair, like obviously I mostly test wearables and whatnot. And Gemini is new onto the wrist. Gemini not that smart either, but that's the funny thing. Gemini is smart, but the problem is if it's in a watch, it's probably not that smart. Well, the problem is, is that there are multiple Gemini's, right? Yeah. Yeah.

[02:01:22] And so the, the models that you use in one context aren't necessarily the models you use in another. And, and that's, and that's, and that's a, that's a problem. Are they trying to run it on device? Is that why that's just got to be a really small? Yeah. I think it's on device on, I believe it's, well, you do need a internet connection, so maybe not. Uh, but on the wearable, I don't know on the phone. I know that they have like a, it's like Gemini three N or whatever. And like, there's a way that it will run locally, depending on if your phone has the path, the specs powerful enough. And this is actually very similar to, to the Gemma models, but there's,

[02:01:52] there's like a way to run it locally to do things. And then there's also a way to have it connected to like the more full functioning Gemini in the cloud. Let me take a break. Cause I want to come back and talk about deep minds, uh, SEMA, which is a really interesting 3d world simulator. And they're, they're using, they're using a goat, the goat simulator to train it. They're using, it's kind of interesting. Uh, when we come back, uh, we'll talk about, uh, training AIs with goats, uh,

[02:02:21] with Victoria song, senior tech reviewer at the verge. I see you're wearing, I also want to ask you about your halo cause you are your aura rather you have, uh, the new ceramic or it's very pretty. And I want to ask you about that too. Cause I am also an aura wear also here, the return of Christina Warren. Now at a GitHub senior dev advocate at GitHub. Great to have you both. Great being here. Our show today brought to you by my mattress. I told you, I, I checked my sleep score every morning. If I get over 80, I think,

[02:02:51] wow, something's, something's going right. I, I, you know, I did something right. Got over 80. I'm going for the crown though. You know, you get on your aura ring. If you get a 88, I think, or higher, you get a little crown. And I've been getting crowns more often than not. And I really have to attribute it to my Helix mattress, my Helix sleep mattress. It's the best mattress I've ever had. So let me, you know, here in the Northern hemisphere, winter is coming. It's chillier. We're going to be spending more time indoors.

[02:03:20] This would be a great time to invest in a new mattress, help you stay comfortable inside your Helix mattress. You spend more than just, you know, eight hours a day on your mattress. It's not just for sleeping. It's for relaxing. I love curling up with a good book, listening to music, watching TV. And the thing about the Helix mattress is you could spend a lot of time on it and, and you feel great. You could no more waking up in the middle of the night, bathed in sweat, no back pain. That's a big one, right?

[02:03:50] If you, what I found out and the reason we got the Helix sleep is that after, between six and 10 years, you should replace your mattress because they start to sag. They start to wear. And we'd had ours for eight years. I thought it's time. I did some research and man, there was no question. Once I looked at all the reviews, all the awards, I'm, I'm going with Helix sleep, no motion transfer. Don't settle for a mattress made overseas with low quality, questionable materials. You can,

[02:04:19] you can smell the container ship on those mattresses. I swear for a long time, rest assured your Helix mattress is assembled, packaged and shipped from beautiful Arizona. It's fresh. And it's within days of placing your order with, with really made with really nice materials. The other thing I liked, the first thing I did when I got to helix sleep.com slash twit, I took the Helix sleep quiz. It matches you.

[02:04:46] They have a whole range of mattresses matches you with the mattress based on your preferences, your sleep needs. I'm a stomach sleeper. So it was one of the first things that said, what do you, you know, my wife's a side sleeper. We were able to get a mattress that worked for both of us. There was a recent study, the Wesper sleep study with Helix mattresses. Helix measured the performance of participants after switching from their old mattress to a Helix mattress. And if you're interested in, in, you know, the, the stats you get from your,

[02:05:16] your aura ring or your Apple watch about your sleep, you'll be interested in this. You know, it tracks your, your, your movements. It tracks whether you're having deep sleep or you're in REM sleep. Deep sleep is the one you want. That's the, you know, maybe it's half an hour a night, but it's the one that cleanses your brain. It's, it's flushing out all the garbage out of your brain. 82% of the participants in this Wesper sleep study saw an increase in their deep sleep cycle on their Helix mattress, moving to the Helix mattress.

[02:05:46] On average, participants achieved 25 more minutes of deep sleep per night. I've seen that. I've seen that myself. Participants on average achieved 39 more minutes of overall sleep per night. And of course their sleep scores went up. Recently, Wired tested a hundred plus bed in the box mattresses. Wired's topic, the Helix midnight Luxe hybrid. That's the one we got the best bed. They said the best bed you can buy online.

[02:06:15] Forbes has tested 90 beds so far this year to find the very best mattress for every sleeper. They also recommend their top pick, the Helix midnight Luxe. I guess we picked the right mattress. This is before those reviews came out, but man, time and time again, the tip top reviews from all the reviewers go to helix sleep.com slash tweet for 27% off site-wide during their black Friday sale. Best of web.

[02:06:41] That's helix sleep.com slash tweet for 27% off for the black Friday sale. Best of web. This offer ends on December 1st though. So hurry, make sure you enter our show name in the post purchase survey. That way they know that we sent you. That's important to us. And if you're listening after December 1st, don't worry, still check them out. Always great deals at helix sleep.com slash tweet. I'm telling you, you're going to love it.

[02:07:09] Helix sleep.com slash tweet. Smells like Arizona. Smells like deep sleep. SEMA too. Is that how I pronounce it? Christina SEMA? I have no idea. You know, we had, we had somebody on who was in charge of the Gemini models. And I said, is it imagine? Is it Imogen? How do you say it? Thank you. No, it's both. I've heard both. She said, I don't know. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I had the same question.

[02:07:37] I usually said Imogen and then I got in the habit of saying imagine. And I was like, Oh, imagine makes more sense. I knew VO, but, um, Nano banana. Now that's catchy. And I know how to say that one. And it's pretty impressive. I might. Oh, it's incredibly impressive. Nano banana is, is amazing. No, you know, banana is the best. Um, that, but that's a technically Gemini flash 2.5, uh, images. Is that what imagine or image? Uh, no, no, no, no, no, they're different models. That's nano banana. That's nano bananas name. They need to fix this. They need to fix this.

[02:08:08] what that says, why we called it nano banana. Cause that's clear. And people remember it. It's not, it was a code name that people figured out and then started to have good experiences with. And then we like, they, sorry, sorry, sorry. Um, and, and then, and then deep mind, um, you know, decided to take more of an active role after that. And like continuing to, you know, build into the code name. Um, but I would agree with you. Is there, uh, model? It's really more of a research project. Yes. For three worlds,

[02:08:37] but it's very impressive. I've played with it and you, you, you can expand the world. It's basically like you're in a video game and you can move through it. It's, it's, it's goat simulator. They're using, they're using actual games to, to train it. There's Valheim. There's goat simulator. There's a, it looks like halo. Uh, SEMA is the scalable, instructable multi-world agent. Is the intent for this to be,

[02:09:05] to design video games or what is the, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I think that, I think that, I think it could be right. Like, I think we should point out you don't work there anymore. You're not speaking for them. No, I'm not. And I didn't work on or with anybody on this project. I worked on Gemini, Gemma and, um, you know, SEMA does use Gemini models. So, yes, but, but I worked on, on the Gemini API, AI studio, and then Gemma models. And then also some of the, some of the things like imagine and VO, um, uh, you know,

[02:09:34] um, um, generative media models, but I didn't work on, on, on, anything else. But from talking with some of the VO team, which do similar things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I happen to think that it, they're probably still trying to figure out exactly what the use cases would be. I know with VO, they were, we're actively like working with the filmmaking community and figuring out as they were seeing the capabilities. Okay. How can we tailor this and,

[02:10:03] and work things out to really make this useful for creators and for people who are going to be using this in production? Well, this would be, it looks like it would be used for games, right? Yeah. That's what I would think. Right. I would think that it would be potentially a way to, you know, more easily create 3d worlds, which could be useful in a lot of contexts, whether you're running to create, you're playing Minecraft. Wow. whether you're wanting to create a game, whether you're wanting to train things in games, I could see this. I mean, this is me again, completely just extrapolating. I have no knowledge at all, but I mean, if you do believe in like a world of, you know,

[02:10:32] real like 3d visualizations and VR and AR and whatnot, this would be potentially a very good way of being able to, you know, expedite the creation of some of those experiences. We've come such a long way from the Twitch streams of playing Pokemon. Yeah. Yeah. But those were amazing, right? That, that was when, when, when, when, when, when Twitch played Pokemon, I mean, that was an incredible achievement. And then we continue to get better and better. And this, I think that's what's so exciting about blows me away is how fast we're getting better. You know,

[02:11:00] you talked about Will Smith eating spaghetti two years later. It's perfect. Right. You know, it's amazing how fast this is happening. Well, and I think things like this, like a really interesting, I don't know. I just had a thought. I don't know what either of you think of this, but like, I could see conceivably, this could be useful even for, for game testing. Right. Like, because, because it's able to take instructions so well and pick things up, like this could be useful, not even just creating and extrapolating these models. But again, if you're feeding these things stuff and going, okay, how can I get better?

[02:11:30] That's actually a demo that it was not related to, to SEMA, but was actually a demo that some of my colleagues put together, which is pretty cool, which was a car based thing. They kind of built like a, an F1 simulator and fed the game instructions, like the steam game to Gemini, and then had Gemini being able to, to look at what's happening on the screen. And then with your voice, you could control and say, how do I do this? How can I improve my time around the lap this way? What do I need to look out for? And, and that, you know,

[02:11:59] it has been possible for the, for the last year there. And they're continuing to make those, those demos, you know, better, but this looks like this is so much faster to just be able to in real time, almost like, you know, feed these things, these worlds and get information, have it play games, which is really, really impressive. I also think they're using it to train models. So one of the issues, and a lot of people talked about this, Fei-Fei Li and Yan Koon and others, is that large language models are language based.

[02:12:29] They don't understand the physical world. They don't know what happens when a pen falls off a desk. These models, these tools can be used to kind of train it, how physical worlds work, which is an entirely new way. different discipline. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know exactly. I mean, I don't know what their plan is. I'm just impressed as hell with what they're doing. totally. And I would say like, it's like looking like through like the, you know, the acknowledgements, you know, their special thanks to the game developers who partnered with us.

[02:12:59] So like there was a partnership. They're working with game. Yeah. Yeah. So they're working with, with, with the, you know, with coffee stain, with, with foul ball hangover, with hello games, with, you know, keen software, with strange loop. And, and that's a good thing. How long before you have, and this was in her, remember in her? Yeah. He was playing a game and Scarlett Johansson is looking over his shoulder and he, there's an agent in the game that he's playing. It's snotty as hell. Like his meat is like a little bratty agent.

[02:13:26] And I'm wondering if we're going to have AI assistants in the game playing with us. Oh, that's, that's, that defeats the purpose of a game though. Maybe. Maybe though it's like having a little buddy in there with you. I mean, I think it depends. I think, I think, I think it depends. I think it defeats the purpose of the game. But one thing I'll push back on, like, let's say you have little kids. Let's say you have people who are different skill levels who are playing together. That's fair. That, that could actually be a really useful thing where if you're able to give somebody, you know,

[02:13:54] a little bit of an AI assistance because they're newer or they don't have, you know, as good, like, you know, motor skills or, or, or whatever, like that, that could be cool. Victoria, do you, when, when you play, do you play online with other people? I hate playing online with other people. I don't need them to see how bad I am. Like, like not coordinated on those things. There's all these 13 year old kids who want to beat my, like, you know, I used to play some games where like Dota and some,

[02:14:23] some of these things where you were playing with other people. Who's the first one dead? It me. Yeah. Always. You know, that's, it was always me. When I, when I started playing those, you know, games where, you know, you're all, you're, you're, it's a hundred people trying to survive. What do they call it? I can't remember. Oh, like battle Royale games. Battle Royale games. Like D pub and of course the big, the big one. I'm going to be the first one to die. I'm always the first one to die, but it was so smart of them to put into what, what is the name?

[02:14:53] Uh, I can't remember the name of it. Anyway, the, that, that game that everybody plays firefall or whatever it's called. What is it? Fortnite? Fortnite. Thank you. That, that you can watch you die right away, but you can then watch the game as, as the person who killed you and you become that person until they're killed. And then you become, that was brilliant. Cause it gave me something to do. Cause every time I would be the first one to go every single time. Yeah. I mean, but wouldn't it be nice to have somebody to load your gun for you to say, Hey, over there, you know,

[02:15:23] it would. I mean, I could see it in VR games being somewhat helpful too, just because anytime I've tested a VR game and it's meant to be immersive. And the fact is, is that you can't really interact with everything in a VR world because it requires people to have programmed that out for you. So you're like, Oh, can I pick up this thing? No, but I can pick up that thing. So, um, that would always just be sort of frustrating for me to just be like, I don't, I don't know what parts I can interact with.

[02:15:53] I don't know what I'm actually supposed to be doing right now. So in those instances, having like a bit of an AI, either having the AI kind of guide you to be like, no, don't pick up that thing. That doesn't, you can't pick up that thing. Or you could say to it, don't give me big hints, but give me little hints. Yeah. I wonder what that does. You know, that kind of thing. I don't know. I'm not so good at games that I wouldn't want that kind of help. I mean, yeah.

[02:16:23] Number of times I ran into walls and these games. Cause I was like, okay. Yeah. Right. Because you don't know where the, where the wall is. Right. Because, because the draw out isn't there. And so, yeah, I mean, I think that's part of it, but you'd mentioned like the real world aspects, um, Leo and, and kind of like reading the, the, you know, um, you know, blog posts, like more closely, they do comment that, that they're hoping to take some of the learnings from this and apply it to the robotics things. And I, and I, and I obviously, and I, and I obviously can't, can't say anything, but I had an opportunity to, to view,

[02:16:53] um, uh, one of the robotics floors, um, in September and, and see some of the, the stuff you're working on. And it's incredible. It's incredible. And, and, and it's getting relatively affordable, even for you to build and buy like your own kind of like arm that can be instructed by these things. And it, that, I mean, there are, there are negative implications around this too, obviously, but like there are potentially massive implications if you're able to get these things to have better range of movement, make better decision-making processes,

[02:17:22] understand environments more like, you know, like when I was, I was, some of, some of the demos that I was seeing were incredibly impressive. Victoria, how long before you're reviewing household robots? You know, not that long. I got, uh, what was there? The Casio, I forget the name of it. The little fluffy guy coming soon. Oh, you got that one coming. It just makes little, yeah. Yeah. It makes little noises. Um, it's a little triple, but supposedly it gets a little,

[02:17:52] a little smarter over time. I really wanted to buy that. I'm going to see how it, should I get it? Do you think I'll read your, I don't know. I don't know. I want to see how it compares to my cat. And if my cat tries to kill it out of jealousy, we'll see. Um, the mothlin is called the mothlin. The mothlin. Um, I'm curious about that because it's a lot closer to what I call the Japanese culture of robots, which are like helpful, friendly assistant things versus the culture where they're like Terminator. I was going to say, I had an AIBO.

[02:18:21] I loved my AIBO very much. Did you have an AIBO? Really? I did. I got it from Sharper Image. Um, when I was in, um, uh, college, it was like deeply, deeply, deeply discounted. And it was very expensive. You know, it was. And so I wouldn't have been able to afford it. And, and, um, but the batteries died. And I know people in Japan like had funerals. Funerals. Yeah. Yeah. Because they couldn't remake the batteries. Like some of them had them for like 20 years. Like it was very sad. It was like losing like a real member of the family. The Moflin though doesn't do anything. And it's more than $400.

[02:18:51] Listen, some people, we have a loneliness epidemic out here. And I would rather have the Moflin than friend. Yeah. Yes. Oh my God. Oh my God. Yeah. She had the friend last time you were on that thing. That thing was real mean to me. It, it gaslit me a lot. It, it was just rude. Um, yeah. Well, and talk about being like, we're talking about like, you know, wearing like the Ray-Ban stuff in public.

[02:19:20] Like the friend to me is even more of like a, nobody noticed. I think I should, which nobody can tell you're doing that. But, but that's the part that's like, to me is like more horrifying is the fact that it's, you know, potentially recording and then posting everything. Good news. Good news. It only had one crappy mic at the bottom. So 90% of what it said to me was, I can't hear what's going on. And so, I mean, unlike the B, which I wore and I, I have, I have a B, I have a plot.

[02:19:49] I have a B. I have, I have all of them. The, uh, I can't even remember. There's so many generic names, but, uh, cause I really had high hopes. I want an AI. See, it's that idea of not in a game, but just in life, the game of life. Yeah. You'd like to have just like a running, like, like recording of all the stuff you do. Yeah. I see the appeal sort of, but, um, I, I don't know. I feel like the, the, the, the, the friend thing, they lost me with, I mean, look, I understand it.

[02:20:19] It was creepy. Well, but I also understand the whole point of like, you know, this, this young kid who's, you know, putting together like a purposely like antagonistic ad campaign and whatnot and going for the lulls and, and seemingly to an enjoying spending. He was kind of a trillion. Oh, 1000% and openly seeming to enjoy spending all this VC money, which I kind of respect the, the grip there. Right. I kind of, part of me kind of respects that. I'm like, all right, I see you, but I, I did get great pleasure that in New York city, all of the, you know, billboards and everything were immediately graffitied.

[02:20:49] Um, and so we, like be up for like half a second and somebody would be like, not your friend. And we just, Oh, it was hilarious because the West fourth station was the most famously graffitied one. And so I went there to like kind of film some social content about the, the, the friend thing. And they had kind of like cleaned it up and put a new one up to, to get rid of the graffiti. And immediately I just see someone just going all over it. Yeah. I, I, on, I was,

[02:21:19] I was there, you know, a couple months ago and I just happened to see like through a subway door on, on, I think I was like on like 14th street station or something. And like literally like I, and what somebody had graffitied on was no on the pendant. Cause I'm looking at this photo right now. And they crossed out friend.com and wrote in foe.com. And, and I captured this image literally through the subway door and I was like, brilliant. No, it's perfect. I mean, that's just New York. Somebody made a website of all of the, uh, graffitied subway signs.

[02:21:49] Um, and it's a great, it's a really fun. It is. Jesus loves you. Jesus loves you. What's so funny to me about this is that part of me is like, man, cause I'm probably the only one who remembers this Victoria. I don't know if you remember, um, uh, Lucas uses Venmo, but, um, Oh, I do remember that. Yeah. So, so there's the, when Venmo was first starting out Leo in New York city, they blast and he was an actual Venmo employee. So I feel bad for him for this regard, but they just blasted this, this poor guy's like photo,

[02:22:20] like on every billboard all over the subway stations was like, Lucas uses Venmo. And you get to a certain point, you're like, F you, Lucas, right. Don't want to see you again. But, but Venmo did kind of lean into the, the outrage behind it. I thought it would have been really funny, frankly, if when they did the big like West fourth street, like, like buy out of the whole thing, if they had just like embraced the graffiti or even put graffiti on themselves, like to me, that would have been like, at least like it would have killed the whole attempted at doing it

[02:22:49] if they had done it themselves. But of course they, they, they didn't, which I'm glad for, because I'm glad the community got to attack it all. Instead. Oh, did you see that the people were making friends subway ad like a Halloween costumes? They would just allow people to just graffiti on them. I thought that was great. Oh yeah. No. Um, I saw that too. That made me like miss New York so much because that's just such a quintessential. Like there is, if you want to, uh,

[02:23:15] there is a website called vandalize friends.com where you can go in and vandalize a virtual friend subway. See, see this is good content. Yeah. That's great. Oh, that's amazing. That's so good. And then you can publish it. Oh, I have to log in to publish it. I'm not going to do that. Do you have different colors? Spray paint.

[02:23:45] That's hilarious. Well done. Isn't it? I love, you know what? New York's like, uh, I, a fertile creative ground for this kind of stuff. I'd love it. And I love the, the, the kind of, uh, I don't know, uh, anti-establishment point of view that this all reflects. Now here's the Neo home robot. This is, I think maybe you can order it now, by the way, this is,

[02:24:15] I want you Victoria to review. Oh God. I was going to say, tell me about, tell me about this guy. That freaks me out. Here it is. Vacuuming. It's like a slender man situation. I was going to say, I was like, here's the thing. I'm not opposed to having more anthropomorphized types of robots in our homes or whatever. And I liked like the, the Mofin thing that you're showing her Mothlin, whatever it's called. Like it looks super cute or whatever, but yeah, this is a slender man thing. And I'm like,

[02:24:44] I think if you're going to do this sort of thing, you really need to go full rosy robot, right? Like you need to go full Baymax. You need, you need Baymax full of rounded fluffy corners. It needs to look like anime and Disney-fied. No, totally. I think you're right. I think Baymax is probably the right thing. I was, I was thinking like Rosie from, you know, the Jetsons, but, but like, but yeah, something like that where, you know, very clearly, this is not trying to emulate like a real human at all. Cause yeah, this,

[02:25:14] this slender man, my God, like it, the, the, the, the lack of face that just the two eyes and it's the whole thing. It's creepy. It's giving Slender man meets Coraline with the button mothers, the button mother eyes. Like, Oh, Oh, absolutely not. And you guys, we found a thing that I've been completely outpriced from that. I'm laughing at why I need to pay this. So the, the, it's a $200 deposit. Yeah.

[02:25:41] The standard monthly subscription with the starter productivity package and standard delivery is $500 a month. Oh, but no, but, but, but for early access ownership with a three year warranty, premium support priority delivery, it's $20,000. So it's $20,000. And then there's a $500 car. I know. I think that it's 20,000 in the ownership, but it's not clear how long. So you could rent it for $500 a month. It's unclear to me. I'm looking at,

[02:26:10] there are things. If I purchase my Neo now, will I need, if I purchase my Neo, will I need an additional subscription? No. If you purchase Neo, as opposed to a monthly subscription, no additional subscription is required. but wait a minute, that $500 a month is $6,000 a year. Right. So you needed at least three years. Yeah. And that's basically what they're saying. Right. And they're saying ownership with three year warranty. So I'm guessing that they are not planning on supporting one. I'm guessing. For longer than three years. That there, this will not be working in three years. Oh no. It will not be working in two years.

[02:26:40] I have. I don't think this is launching. An Orbi. Absolutely not. I had a bunch of robots that are, you know, they turned off the server and it's just a dead. Oh, one thought. Yes. Not only that, but I think that this is a thing where like, you're going to put in your $200 deposit and you're never going to see your money again. Yeah. Nope. I think that might. This is going to be, this is going to be a, um, not for $20,000.

[02:27:07] You want a slender man just walking with his little brown face? I was, I was going to say you could like, actually would be funnier and it'd be cheaper. You could just break up like an AI generated background. Oh, I could show you, you know, I could just have it be, you wouldn't know. I could have it be virtual. Yeah. Hand me a cup of coffee. But also it means, yeah, no, this thing's never going to ship. It's never going to be a real thing. Um, I don't really think about who these people are. Maybe it, maybe it might though, you know, Elon Musk,

[02:27:36] part of his trillion dollar pay packages that he will get his optimist robots working. Okay. You can see him in LA now. You can get, they'll give you a popcorn. Um, Leo click on it. Cause the website is one X dot tech slash. And, and, and please pull that up and then scroll down and show it to the people because the even industrial, um, robot design that they have needs to be seen. The people watching the, the, so that's different from, so here's the Eve is on wheels. No, right.

[02:28:06] Yeah. It's got a face and it's, and it's attached to us, to a Swiss segue. Come on. Look at that face. Right. Even the fact. Nope. It's awful. No, it did. No one watch Megan. Yeah. It does have a kind of a, Oh my God. And now, now it's freaking, um, the, the, um, the evil Spider-Man, the, um, Venom. Venom. If you scroll down Neo beta, um, cause they have a, it was a scroll up. Cause yeah. Yeah. I go past it.

[02:28:36] There's gamma. Yeah. Oh, he's got a little Spider-Man suit. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. It looks like Venom. Nope. He's picking out clothes for you. Not well, no, I mean, I will say if he could do that, if it like, I fold my clothes, do my laundry, do all those things. I don't know. You're still going to be. I don't know if it was this one,

[02:28:58] but there was definitely the case that one of these household robots more often than not was being operated at the home office by a human being. Oh yeah. Looking through the eyes. Oh yeah. 1000%. I don't know if it was this one, but I don't know who knows, but no, that, that, that tracks. Cause, cause wasn't that the whole thing with like the Amazon go grocery things that it turned out that a lot of them were actually being primarily validated by self-driving, a lot of self-driving vehicles. You don't know how often it's being taken. Yeah. You don't know. I mean, I love Waymo.

[02:29:28] Waymo is my favorite thing in the entire world. I would, I want Waymo everywhere. I think Waymo is that way. Waymo's in trouble. Cause it killed the kid cat, kid cat, killed kid. They killed the bodega cat, which is very sad. And I'm not defending that. I'm not going to get in the politics behind that, but that is probably been other bodega cats killed by humans. Many of them. And, and, and I think the difference is, is that you have a thing you can point to and blame, which I understand and I respect and, and go off. But like, for me personally,

[02:29:56] like I love Waymo more than anything that it like, it's my favorite thing since the iPhone. Like I love Waymo. I want it everywhere. But yeah, to your point, I don't have no idea how often, like a human has to potentially get involved if you're in a weird traffic situation. And I've taken, I don't know, probably 150 Waymo's and I've never had a weird, like I've never been, I think one time there was like a weird parking situation or like we were like trapped into a weird place and, and you know, I had to wait for a few minutes and it seemed clear to me that there was

[02:30:25] probably like a human getting involved. So then, you know, move the car or whatever the case may be. But yeah. Yeah. Let's take a break. There is, there are only, only 433 stories left. We'll get to them all. We'll do a speed round. We have Victoria's song from the verge. So wonderful to have you, Victoria. You like the ceramic is, should I try? I have a titanium one. Same. It's the same in sides, right? It's the same.

[02:30:56] It's, it's slightly, I think the sizing is slightly different just because of the titanium. I mean, the ceramic, it's prettier. It's prettier. I'm basically going to be testing to see how durable it is. Good. I will read your review. Yeah. I'm very hard on my rings. You're the queen of wearables. Oh, thank you. Yes. But like. In the world. Yes. Oh, I'll take that. But yeah, no,

[02:31:21] like I had the brush titanium for the four as my original review unit. And it did not take long before I got scratches on it, which, you know, makes sense. But the one before that, I had the rose gold, the black mat. And it's, that makes sense. yeah, but I want, I like my bling. I like things to be pretty. And so I had the rose gold one for a couple of years and that one, the coating just completely came off and it was just gold underneath. And I was like, well,

[02:31:51] that's dumb. So this supposedly does not because it was gold and they coated it with rose to make it rose gold. Yeah. And so that coating just came off over time. And so then I had this weird splotchy aura ring for a while. And I was like, eh, no, it's hard. I mean, this is, this is basically a little computer on your, on your finger. It is, it is, but, um, you know, it is also jewelry. And that's the thing about smart rings. Like, you know, I'm embarrassed by this.

[02:32:21] I, when I wear this, I think people think either I'm a swinger. Cause that apparently is the black ring makes use. I don't know. Or I know I didn't know that, but, uh, or they just think I'm some sort of creep and I wear it all the time. And it's, you know, I have a wedding ring on my other hand. That's obviously a wedding ring, but what's this? It's in the, my middle finger. I don't know. I hope more people wear them. So becomes more people will accept. you know what, well, you know where more people will, I think, um, so, um,

[02:32:49] the platinum American express card now gives you, um, I think it's like a, it's a couple hundred dollar credit. Good. Because that's a thousand dollars a year card. Now I know I'm very mad. And, but I'm mad. It used to be $400 a year. And I only bought it for, for helicopter evacuation in case of injury in a foreign land. That's why, that's why I got it. But I don't know if that's worth a thousand dollars. Cause I ain't going anywhere for a while anyway. Well,

[02:33:17] I used to do it for lounge access and then they started cutting. I don't get lounge access anymore. Right. Well, they started cutting how many times you can access the Delta lounge and all kinds of other stuff. And it used to be cheaper to pay the annual fee of Amex Platinum than to buy a sky, um, um, club, uh, pass. This is the definition of a first world. It is. It is. Sorry folks. But, but, but, but the, but there is a $200 or ring credit now. This is the problem with these fancy cards. You don't know what the benefits. I know. I know. They just had a Lululemon too.

[02:33:47] So it's a full time job to read all this stuff. Well, people, fortunately people do have blogs that keep up with it, but, um, there's a new Lululemon credits. It is though. It is a full time job, but there's a Lululemon credit now. In addition to the Saks credit that you can, um, I think Lululemon is quarterly. I do not need my butt lifted, so I will not get it. Okay. But they have great bags. They have great hats. yeah, they have stuff that Lisa would love. Like, honestly, Lululemon has amazing stuff. Oh, wow. I love their bags. Like I love their little, like, you know, like, um, you know,

[02:34:17] shoulder side or like, well, you are the queen of merch. If you, if you say, they make good stuff. Um, and their, their hats are also incredible. Um, just like their, their caps or whatever. Um, uh, and so if you've got the card, use the credit is all I'm saying. Don't spend more, but like, if you've got the, you know, $50 or 75 or whatever it is, use it. But yeah, you get to find out what the credits are on these things. again, like the points guy, there are a bunch of websites. Like it's technically I can help. I bet I could say,

[02:34:45] I scan the, uh, the website and tell me what all my benefits are. And, and apparently American express does send emails about this out. I just don't read them because I get too many emails from American express. I don't want to read. So the inbox is a dumpster fire. It is. How do we solve this? If you, either of you solved the email, I'm working on it. I'm working. I just declared bankruptcy. I just, I'm, I'm trying to find an email solution. And if I find it, it'll be an optimizer issue,

[02:35:15] but, uh, I've been working on it because I came back from vacation to way too many emails. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to jump off a cliff. It was not, it was not it. It's become useless. Frankly, that's the problem is that people want to contact me on email. And I've been an email overload for 20 years. I can't, I it's, I don't know what's in my email. Same. And, and, and this is where I would,

[02:35:44] I would love to actually trust AI to go through and, and siphon for me. I don't trust AI, but this is a place. I know, but, but this is a case where in a perfect world, if the agents, like we're talking about, you know, like the new wave of like web browsers, whether it's like, you know, dia or I wouldn't trust per proxy thing ever, but, but let's, let's pretend that comment would be trustworthy or whatever Chrome is doing or, or anything else. I would, if I, but I'm too much of a control freak, but if I felt confident enough that I could say,

[02:36:11] please go through and sort emails from these people and organize these things automatically into this way, that would be amazing for me. Right. That's actually an interesting idea. Maybe I've been testing these, I've been testing these AI browsers, asking them to sort through my emails. They're dangerous. Not helpful. They're slow. I'm convinced they're dangerous. Not helpful. Yeah. Not helpful at all. They're too easy to, to, to, to spoof. Right. Well, and I think, well, I think that they're dangerous in some ways. I feel like however Chrome does it will probably be the right way.

[02:36:41] It'll probably be less useful, but sandbox because there's no way Google will put something out that, won't be as locked down as possible. But well, tell you to put Elmer's glue on your pizza or eat rocks. Yes. Agreed. But I think in terms of taking control over your inbox, it was slightly different. Like taking it over your inbox. I think they'd let you do. I think it's more. You saw that Amazon is suing perplexity because perplexity with its, which one's that? Is that comment? That's comment. It's comment.

[02:37:10] AI browser was shopping for people on Amazon and Amazon said, no, you can't do that. I don't know why Amazon wouldn't like it, except that Amazon has its own AI. Rufus is supposed to do the shopping. I think it's that. And I think that what they don't like, because there are a couple of companies, I can't think of the name of them right now, but there is one company that the number of these have existed where they, basically you give them access to your inbox and they monitor things that come from certain. Like camel, camel, camel or no, no, no, no, no, These are like,

[02:37:40] like for, for shipping tracking purposes where basically, like, so it'll, it has access to your inbox and it can monitor any email that comes in from the Amazon domain or from Apple or for some other things. And what, and it's great because it'll show you when all your stuff is arriving and it can even show you how much you're spending. But the reason they're doing that is because it's capturing. And then. No, no, no, no, no, no. It's not about that. No, it's about capturing how much you're spending on what you're buying. And so then they can create demographic information that they can sell aggregate. And that, I hate this.

[02:38:10] All of this. Yeah. And that's existed though for a very long time. It was free. Right. Right. And, but you need to know that going into it and people don't make that clear. Right. Like I, I've used some of those services, but I've known very clearly, this is what's happening. Right. It's, it's, it's, it's the next step of going into the, you know, supermarket and using the loyalty card. Um, don't you think everybody knows everything that you do anyway? I mean, I think that there's a difference though. Yeah. Right. Right. And I think it's, I think we know that, but we don't like to be faced with that,

[02:38:40] but I feel like the Amazon thing, that's why I think that they're mad. I don't think it's a matter of in shopping for him is that they don't want perplexity to get this information about users that they have browsing information on plus also what they buy. If you're doing that, you're not seeing all of the Amazon picks, Amazon essentials, Amazon ads, you're not seeing a very lucrative part of Amazon's business. 1,000% is the add on stuff for sure. Just go in there to buy stuff and leave. On the other hand, they try to get us to do that with our Amazon echoes to buy things.

[02:39:10] You didn't see any ads, right? You're just right. And, and then you wind up not realizing how they'd be happy to sell stuff. Well, I don't think it's that though. Like I said, though, I think that it's a matter of like protecting like information about what's being bought from them because everybody wants to own the customer. Right. Because at this point, well, but I think it's even beyond the customer itself. It's like, you could look at trends. How many of these items are being sold? How many of these items are being sold? Is there a different retailer that we could point people to for these things? Is there other, like for perplexity, it might not matter as much,

[02:39:38] but for some other companies, it could be a big deal. I mean, this is, you know, I mean, Amazon was sued for, you know, directly undercutting, you know, and creating competitive products based on the data that they would see would do well. And then they created an Amazon basics and they were, they were fine quite heavily for that. I wonder what the courts are going to do or what the judge, I guess it'll be in this lawsuit will say about this because essentially, isn't that what you do anytime you use a browser? You're, you're, you're,

[02:40:06] this is just a browser and you're just giving it an automated thing. Yeah. And I don't, I don't see how Amazon could say, no, your honor, they're not allowed. It would like be like Amazon saying, well, you can't use Google's browser. Well, I think that what they're saying is that if you, I'm sure that there's a thing in their terms of service and I haven't looked into this at all, but I would assume that there is some sort of thing in their terms of service that basically for botting activity probably says that you're not allowed to automate it. They say it's, yeah, they say it's not identifying itself as common.

[02:40:35] It's identifying itself as something else. Right. And I think that, and that's how, you know, and look, as somebody who, you know, buys expensive sneakers and likes to get, you know, video games and other things, like I've been the victim of like the bots many, many times. And so, you know, and, and a lot of the stores have had to try to fight the bots, you know, some more actively than others, because some of them frankly don't care. But, you know, like this makes it harder if it's not identifying itself the right way. And,

[02:41:03] and if it's also potentially capturing information it can sell. All right. I got to take a break. I don't want to keep you past your bedtime. So we're going to take a little break here and then we're going to try to get through a few stories, a few stories. Anyway, there's a lot of stuff to talk about, but you know, when you get Victoria's song and Christina Warren on a show, you just gotta, you just gotta let it go where it goes. You just gotta let it happen. We're just going to get in the way. It's fun. It's great to have you both. Thank you for being here.

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[02:44:53] He's been building this for years. Lots of problems. They've moved around a lot. The Lucas museum of narrative art opens next year. Amazing. Amazing. Look at it. It's pretty cool. It looks fantastic. Honestly, it's like a spaceship. September 22nd. They're building it right now. It's been a decade in the making. They've moved locations over and over again. 40,000 works of narrative art, not just star Wars, of course, the entire Lucas archives. So you got models, props, concept art, costumes,

[02:45:23] but also from other creatives. It's dedicated to illustrated storytelling. 36 galleries with themes like family, childhood, sports, and adventure from Norman Rockwell to Frida Kahlo. Sounds pretty cool. That sounds amazing. It'll be an exposition park. Yeah. I will go. I will see that. I thought this was aimed at you too. Yeah. I mean, this is, this seems like a perfect. Oh my God, Victoria,

[02:45:51] you have to go and take the meta glasses with you. Oh yeah. I got to do that. I got to go. And yeah, no, I have to test it at all the museums now. I want to see the Jar Jar Binks wing. Just all that concept art. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's going to be the most popular. The Jar Jar Binks wing. Absolutely. Yeah. It is interesting. He actually didn't want to put Star Wars stuff in there at first. Like he was really, he was kind of forced into doing that. Yes. Cause if you go there,

[02:46:20] you're going to want to see Star Wars. Yeah. You don't want to. I mean, that's what everybody told him. That's what everybody told him. The rubber costume. I mean, I mean, look, there's been so much stuff that like the, that Lucas, you know, film has done and they've done so many things like industrial light and magic, like so much stuff, but yeah, you've got, you've got to have Star Wars, like the Jar Jar Binks wing, the baby Yoda wing. Like, Oh my God. Yes. The, the, the, what, without a doubt. I mean, yeah, I want to see the wing to the whole, like, like prequel, like that, that's the battle section.

[02:46:49] And no, I got to go to Pixar last year and that's supposed to be amazing. And it was amazing. And it's actually a fairly small campus, but it's beautiful. And, and, and I had some really nice guys who happened to take me around. I, it happened to be the day that inside out two came out and I got to, and I got to go see it in the theater with some of the Pixar employees at, at like a theater that was within walking distance of the campus, which was really cool because they put the names of every employee at the end of the film. And so that was really special. But you know, they have, you know, various,

[02:47:19] you know, things around and whatnot, but like I would love to, but so just seeing that on a small level, like being able to, and I've always wanted to go to ILM. I've never had a chance. I think to have a big, you know, museum like this, like, you know, it's so cool. The, what is it? It's in Queens, the one in Queens. What is that? Victoria? Is that the moving art museum, the museum, which is a great museum and they update it fairly frequently, but one of the best things they have, I think it's been like the collection has been based there for a long time as they have like the, the Jim Henson collection.

[02:47:49] Yep. And so you have like the whole history of like all the Jim Henson stuff from, you know, Sesame street and earlier and, and well into, you know, like the fraggles and all that stuff. And like, what's that one Jim Henson thing? That's like dark and weird. Yeah. Yeah. Dark. Um, dark. Dark crystal. Thank you. Dark crystal. Yes. Yeah. But, um, so I think like, I love that kind of stuff. And, and I think whatever Lucas is doing, the only interesting thing, and you would know this, I guess, Benito probably more than anyone. I don't know.

[02:48:18] Like it is surprising to me that it's not like the presidio or something that it's in Los Angeles, but I guess. I think it was going to be, this, this is had a long checkered story about moving around. Yeah. Lucas has a lot of the presidio, but, uh, I think there were, there was a long story around this. So it's finally has, that's why it's a new story. After 10 years, it finally has an opening day set. Great. Admittedly, almost a year away. Uh, do you Spotify? It's supposed to be like the narrative art museum.

[02:48:47] So it was kind of like wearing your own, wearing your own band shirt. If you put your own stuff in there, just like, fair enough. You know what? You know what? But you know what? If you're George Lucas, wear your own band shirt. Okay. Absolutely. Wear your own freaking band t-shirt during the concert. Right? Like I think, I think sometimes you've learned it. Like if you're the Rolling Stones, if you're George Lucas, if you're, you know, like, I think you can, if you're Harry Styles, I think you can get away with it. Yes. Spotify has added for people like me who listen to books and then fall asleep,

[02:49:16] a new audio book recap feature. So, so you can automatically catch up on the story so far generated by AI, but I don't think that's fine. I don't, I don't have a problem. You know, I could, I think that's fine for audio books. Previously. Yeah. If you do, if you do, yeah, I fall asleep to audio books all the time. And then you don't know where you go back to. Right. Cause I always set the timer, but then like, you're not like, what part of it did I look out on? Yeah.

[02:49:46] I don't mind that. I don't know. I don't know about either of you. I just, I don't get the audio books on Spotify. I turn the money. Yeah. I don't. Because, because I already pay for audible and if you have a family plan, only the primary user gets the audio books. Right. So I'm like, I'm not paying extra. I use, I use Libby. So I use Libby. I use audible. Yeah. And I use Libro FM. I don't use audible anymore. Cause I don't want to give them any money. Although unfortunately they have exclusives on almost everything. I have, I have,

[02:50:14] I have 18 years worth of books. I have to, you know, and you don't have to pay for audible to have access to your account. Oh, I know. I know. I know. And trust me, I've downloaded them all and I've DDRM all of them so that I can listen to them in M4B formats if I need to, because I bought those things, but it's just, it's just, you know, inertia. I should do other things. They canceled my plan. Actually. That's what was the precipitate. I had the two book plan from way back when, 20 years ago. When it was like really cheap and they, yeah.

[02:50:44] And they kept trying to get me off of it. And I never, I never agreed to it. And then just one day they just said, no, you've canceled. And then at that point you're like, right. You're like, fine. I will go to Libra FM. I will go to Olivia. I will find other ways. I'll support my local bookstore. Yes. And my library. Yes. Believe it or not. There is a new spec for ping for PNGs. Huh? Huh? Sure. Yeah. Cool.

[02:51:13] It's now even better. It's going to have HDR support, which is by the way, apparently something that was being requested by television because they use PNGs for graphics and for lower thirds. So they need HDR. Yeah. It now supports EXIF data. You know, in the past when you took a DMG file or a, you know, a file from your camera and you turn it into a ping, it would strip away all that information. That information will be preserved.

[02:51:42] 20 year old technology is now, has now been updated by the W3C. Nice. Yes. Yes. I thought you'd want to know that. I just, no, this is great. I mean, and hopefully, no, and hopefully this will get adopted more quickly than, because what was the other one that's been, they've been trying for a while, a JPEG XL. And WebP. And there's some other things. Right. I mean, WebP. Yeah. WebP. Ping is good. Ping is good. We don't need JPEG plus. We're fine. Right. I was going to say, because it called ping.

[02:52:12] Yeah. I've always, I've always said PNG. PNG. Really? Maybe I'm the only one that calls it ping. What do you say? GIF or JIF? GIF. I'm, I'm on the wrong side of history. I say JIF because I, that's what the, well, look, that's a peanut butter. I know, but that's what the creator said. And so I do auteur rules here. I'm sorry. Chat room. Is it ping or PNG? And I'm not going to ask you a GIF or GIF. Cause I know that's just a battle. Everybody says PNG. I didn't know that. All right. I won't call it a ping anymore. Okay. Yeah.

[02:52:42] But no, but, but, but I'm honestly, I think this is hopefully going to be good. Cause if it's being led by the TV vendors, then it will hopefully be adopted. Also the W3C is taking it on the browsers. This should be good. Yeah. All the browsers already support it. So yeah. Right. Well, which is a really interesting format and adds a lot of other layers and, and really better compression and a bunch of stuff, but they can't get the browser support broad enough. And you're never going to get the support on like TV sets or embedded systems.

[02:53:12] So that's cool. Everybody in the chat room is saying it's not ping Leo. Don't call it ping. Okay. Okay. Call it ping. If it's, if it's a ping in your heart, call it a ping. It's a ping in my heart. Well, when you said ping, you know what I thought? Cause this is how wild and retro pilled I am. I thought of like Apple's ping. Apple's old social network. It was around for three cups of coffee. Three and a half seconds. For three and a half seconds. Yeah. Here's how I'm a nerd.

[02:53:38] I thought of Mulan and how her name was ping before she was outed. I know. I was like ping. Do you, do you, when you travel, you see guru. I did all the time to pick my seats. It's gone. Yeah. I know. I know. Bought it and they killed it. No, they had it for years and then they just decided to kill it. And I was so mad because if people weren't familiar, what secret was is that it would have the seat maps for all the different

[02:54:06] planes and you could put in what your flight number was and then find your plane type. And it wasn't always accurate because sometimes the plane types change, but you could get close enough to see, okay, what type of plane am I going to be in? What variation of it is? That's the important thing. Cause there's always a variation difference. And you don't want to be next to the bathroom. You don't want to have no leg room. You want to be able to put your stuff under the seat. There's a lot of reasons that that seat is not a good seat, but the airline's not going to tell you. No. And, and, but, and so it was crowdsourced in some ways where people would, it was good or not. And you could see,

[02:54:36] is it yellow? Was it red? You know, was it green? I used it all the time. Me too. Because I mean, I don't fly as much as I used to, but when I used to be on an airplane all the time, like I'm trying to pick the most optimum seat, especially if it's like a long flight. And yeah, I'm very sad. Like screw you trip advisor. I hope somebody else can maybe. I never used it. So I won't miss it, but I feel FOMO now. Now you wish you had. You wish that you'd known about it. Yeah. Now I wish I'd known about it. I just suffer on planes. On those long trips to Rome. You know,

[02:55:06] there's no direct flight between SFO and Rome. Oh, that's interesting. How could that be? Isn't that ridiculous? It is pretty long. Yeah. Well, it's also a small airport. No, that's the problem. No, it's a really small airport. That's it. Cause you've got to go through Amsterdam or CDG. Oh, the Rome airport is. Yeah. Yeah. The Rome airport is really small. That's the issue. They don't have wide bodies. That's the issue. Cause it's a really small airport. So the, the mint. Milan, you can actually, I don't know if you can go direct Milan either.

[02:55:33] I think you also have to go through Amsterdam or CDG to do Milan, but. You know, all of this, cause man, you travel. So you're not traveling as much. Not as much. Um, well, we'll see. I mean, every event for a while. I did. Well, it was, it was pre pandemic too. So times were different. Budgets were different. Um, I mean, this year I've, I've done India, London and, um, you know, a bunch of other places, but, um, uh, San Francisco a few times, um, New York a few times, but, um, you know, I,

[02:56:02] I don't know what next year will be. Uh, let's see other stories. Uh, the penny is dead. Did you know that? Yeah. Yeah. The mint stopped making them. But now we have get ready for this 300 billion pennies in circulation with no plan for what to do with them. They should, it's good. They killed them. They're still right. You could still use them, bring them to the store. I might just keep one now.

[02:56:30] I was going to say like now and I'll really have a lucky penny. Um, so on SNL last night, um, they were making some jokes about it. And, and Michael Shay's second joke was. Yeah, I did laugh at that one. I didn't hear that. Oh, it's something along the lines of, uh, you know, shooting him through the head one last time. geez. Yeah. That is really rude. It was really dark, but it was good. It was really good. It was good. It was, it was, I laughed. I laughed very hard. I was like, well done Shay.

[02:56:59] Like there were gasps in the crowd when we said it too. Yeah. And I was like, why things we were talking about, uh, the, the way Mo why things has a new device. They just released called the B mo. Yes. It is an electrocardiogram, a stethoscope, and a thermometer all in one thing. Speaking about hypochondriacs, like, or, or, yeah. Uh, they actually, have you reviewed it? Victoria, are you gonna? No,

[02:57:29] I've seen it though. Um, so withings will do this thing where they come every year at CES and you're like, here's the new thing. And I think this was, um, their new thing, like two CESs ago. It's taken a while. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I'm seeing in, in my, in my KG searches is, is it shows January 8th, 2024. It's a single lead ECG. So that's not going to be great. Not even as good, I think as the, uh, Apple watch. Cause that's also a single lead. Is it single lead? Or I believe it's single lead. Yeah.

[02:57:59] Maybe you're right. Yeah. Uh, simple grip of BMO triggers measurements. My, my, why things are with things or we things. We don't know how you pronounce it. We has, has a handlebar that you hold that does your, your EKG and shows a little sinus rhythm and all that. I'm always okay. It's got a, it's got, it can do, uh, auscultation by digital stethoscope. I mean, it looks kind of cool. Like they have like, there's the BMO and then there's the BMO pro.

[02:58:28] It says it's been CE cleared and to be FDA cleared. Okay. Uh, so it's maybe not quite, I think it's out in Europe is what I saw. Yeah. So it was out in Europe, but it has to be FDA cleared, but I don't know, man. And like, I think that I wouldn't buy one, but at the same time I can kind of see the appeal. Yeah. I have a number of, uh, we things, why things. I had one of their, um, I wound up getting the, the, whatever the anger brand was of the, the scale afterwards, but,

[02:58:57] but I had one of the why things, whatever scales, they're good. The scales are good. I actually have a new withings device. That's not the BMO that I will be testing. That is cursed. It's the you scan, which is an at home PP lab. Do you put it in, you pee on it? Yes. You put it in your pregnancy test. You have to know it's like for other stuff. It's for other stuff, but it's it. That also was announced at CES a couple of years ago. Put it. Oh,

[02:59:27] it's the one that looks like a clam. Kind of. It's like a little thing that you stick in your toilet and you pee on it. And you put it in your, okay. Yeah. And then, uh, and then it used, and then, oh no, this is a, this is like a little cartridge in there and it measures certain things like biomarkers. I don't want to know any of this. Um, yeah. So that's a urine lab in the, in your pocket.

[02:59:56] Like genuinely like putting, like we're talking at the beginning of the show, kind of about like, Oh, is this going to lead people to hypochondria and whatnot? I, I am a fan of people being able to monitor their bodies and get information and whatnot. I like my Apple watch. I like knowing like what my general pulse ox is when that works, knowing like my, you know, I like it. I'm kind of a fan of the, uh, yeah. I like having the sleep tracking. if I could do it, like this is why based on Victoria's review, I'm going to go look and see if I can fit one of the, if it's one of the,

[03:00:25] or rings will be small on my finger. What do you think Victoria? Is it good? I'm gonna find out. Uh, you haven't peed on it yet. No. Cause I have to get the product photos before I install it because yeah, I gotta be really respectful of our photographer. You know, I'm not going to use the product and then be like, Hey, can you get pictures of a thing I've peed on? That's a step too far. So how close will this be to going? I mean, you know, to the doctor,

[03:00:54] the lab and peeing in a cup and they, so, you know, originally one reason why it probably took so long to launch is because they were going to go for FDA clearance, but then now they've decided to take a left turn and be wellness. So it doesn't require that. So I'm going to say it's not going to replace your doctor. And then you choose what pods to put in it. So yeah. Well, and this is also, so this is annoying because I don't know how much the refills cost, but I'm looking at the website now.

[03:01:22] So one cartridge is included with a proactive package to with the intensive package. One is saying it'll do two to four measurements weekly. So you install this in your toilet. Is that how this works? Okay. And then, and then five to seven for the, for the, for the intensive one is, so it's 22 tests to cartridge. Who knows what these cartridges cost? Well, 22 tests. That's not even going to be, that's going to be like three weeks. I might just go to the doctors for this. Right. Yeah. I mean, like if you're, if you have a chronic metabolic,

[03:01:51] that's different thing that you need to monitor over time, then sure, this might be a, I wear a continuous glucose monitor. That's incredibly useful. I really like that. And actually I could see for actually for diabetic users who might need to monitor some of these things, this could be useful. But when you say that it doesn't have, that they went for wellness and not FDA clearance, and that's red flag number one, because then we don't know how good this is going to be. And maybe it is good enough and they just couldn't go through the red tape. And, and it's kind of like the, you know, over the counter,

[03:02:21] you know, hearing aid things, right. Where they are very close, maybe not the same like level of, you know, battery and some other things, but they are, you know, performant wise very close to, to what the typical ones are, which is why the FDA had to allow the, the over the counter stuff. But it may, maybe the results be good. I can't say, but it just feels to me like. I will say that. I don't know. It's getting more invasive. Like all the health stuff is. So like, obviously this is not invasive into your body,

[03:02:50] but Aura and Whoop both released features recently where you can get blood tests. And then the results of those blood tests into those, like you're going through quest diagnostics in each case. It's not available in every state. So it's a real test. It's not the ring doing it. You're going to draw your blood. You're, it's just putting the data. And you go to your doctor. Well, I don't mind tests. Right. And again, I don't mind having the data available.

[03:03:20] My concern is Apple weirdly, and they probably don't deserve this trust from me, but I trust them to keep my health data. You know, relatively private point. Yeah. A lot of these other companies, and this is what really bothers me because you do see this with, with health insurance companies, you see with Medicare, with Medicaid, where they will basically say, we will give you an Apple watch. We will do whatever. But in exchange, they want all of your measurement data. And that's, that's the level where I'm like it. Cause it's one thing if you want to openly, you know,

[03:03:49] engage in giving information to these companies where they could do all kinds of things with it, which we don't know about where I find it really insidious and really problematic is as more insurance companies get into these bonus things, if they start to make it a requirement to even get insured, that's my, my bigger concern. Like it's not even so much the discounts it's, it's saying, Oh, we're going to require you to wear this, you know, monitoring gear and share your real time or whatever time data it is with us for us to make the determination of, of, of your insurance status. That is, is,

[03:04:18] that horrifies me on a lot of levels too. I don't like thinking about it, especially since like these corporate health programs are very black boxy. I've done some cursory look into them and it's very difficult to kind of just find a way in. But you know, it's, it's one thing I will say on my beat. And I say it a lot of times is like, if you're worried about your health data, don't use wearables because even if you trust Apple, even if you think this company is good,

[03:04:47] if you do a third party integration, you are agreeing to that right. Parties thing. And they may not be at the same level. And right. But that's in every single verge review that we put at the end. We have this agree to continue section where I basically write that in every single wearable review, where it's like, if you integrate with a third health party app, you are also agreeing to that apps terms and privacy policies and how they use your data.

[03:05:15] So you can think that the data your Apple watch collects is secure and then you share it to Strava. And then, you know, I don't know what Strava is going to do with that data. You know, so it's, it's very murky. I'm at this point where I'm like, I have no data privacy in my life whatsoever because of my job and the testing that I do. I'm kind of cavalier about it because I, I just am. Um, but it is getting to a point where even I am like,

[03:05:45] this is starting to get a little invasive in a way that I don't feel comfortable with. Uh, sometimes like, I don't know if I want my aura app to have my blood test results in it and interpreting it through their AI versus like whoop. So if, if you do that, HIPAA doesn't protect you then. So it protects you if you do it with a physician at a, so that's, that's really important to remember. You're important to remember when you see these FDA cleared, um,

[03:06:14] things that anything that's gone through FDA clearance has to adhere to HIPAA level, um, data privacy and data security, which is why it takes so long to get the clearances because it's such a long resource intensive, uh, process, which is why oftentimes you only see the really big companies go through that ordeal because you have to do the clinical testing. You have to do, uh, validation testing. You have to show that it works on different skin colors. You have to show that it is, um,

[03:06:43] adhering to HIPAA privacy protocols and all of that stuff. It, it takes a lot of regulatory know-how it takes a lot of, money. So when we, just to bring it back to Withings, there's a lot of times they go to CES and they're like, here's our new product. And I'm like, all right, see you in two to three years because it's like a really long time, but they, you know, they do go through it. They take a long time. A lot of times it's available in Europe where they're based before it is here. But, you know, I think in 2018, they announced the Withings, Move ECG,

[03:07:12] which was a kind of a smartwatch that had ECG on it. It's still not available in the U S. Yeah. That's like 2018. So it's been seven years. There just never will be. It never will be. Um, so, you know, anytime you see that at CES, it's just, it's been selling a toilet to test your urine as well. Right. Of course. Yeah. So you got to get that too. That is a harder installation. I think. I was going to say, now, look,

[03:07:41] they want to give you one of the fancy Japanese toilets and install it in your house. Oh, I love those. Oh, I do. I love those too. So I'm saying if they want to give you one and pay for the installation and all that, I mean, I bet you probably would allow them to invade your bathroom and do it. I'd have to, I'd have to consult over the ethics policy. Callers looks not just at your pee, but everything else. So it's more complete. That's what I mean. Yeah. I can't. These are things I don't want to know, right? Like on a daily basis or weekly basis, like if I've got, if I have a medical problem and I need to monitor it, my, my doctor would go through it,

[03:08:11] but that's the way to do it. And I think doctors think that too, you know, I did the pre nouveau MRI full body scan where you pay 2,500 bucks and it does your body, which I've been wanting to get. I did it, but my doctor said it's fine. But he said, what we find is that people find out about things that they didn't want to know about. And then you have to do something about it. Right. Right. And I think that most research shows you should wait until you have a symptom. Well, that's what they typically say,

[03:08:39] but as someone who has spent the last, like, well, my husband has spent because he's a saint, but trying to get an MRI appointment for whatever I've done my back, 2,500 bucks. But you said it's not. No, no. Well, because I asked and I was like, cause I could use HSA funds and I was like, I will pay out of pocket. I will, whatever. He said it wouldn't be good enough. But the thing is, is I could get one of those easily. I did it just because it's a baseline. It's a baseline. I found out some things. My wife and I did it. She found out some,

[03:09:08] she had actually have some tests, which turned out negative. But that's the point is it's get, you're going to find out stuff. Everybody's got something. Nobody's normal. No, I found out. I found out some metabolic stuff through CGM testing that, you know, eventually I'll write up, but like, yeah, I found out some like things that I have to go address. And then you have to address them. Yeah. And in fact, my doctor, my, my health insurance stopped doing a prostate blood test,

[03:09:38] the PSA test. And they said, the reason they stopped is that, well, most of the time, any, anything we do to fix you is worse than the, than the prostate cancer. I mean, so we just don't want to know. I mean, my, my, my father-in-law died. Prostate cancer is a serious thing. Anybody, any male who gets to a certain age is probably going to get it. Well, what happened is he'd have, he had like prostate cancer. And then, um, that led to, I guess just a few millimeter,

[03:10:07] like tumor or whatever that wound up. Uh, covering the ducts of his pancreas and that led to pancreatic cancer. So like serious, of course. Yes. Which obviously, and, and, and, and that, and that's what, that's what he died of. And so, you know, prostate cancers are very slow. Correct. And, but, but the thing is, is that if things are in the wrong places and whatnot. And so I understand when they're looking at big masses of data, they want to act judiciously. It's statistics. It's not you, but, but, but, you know, there are also, but I also still bristle when I'm like,

[03:10:36] they're not doing certain tests. I mean, well, I made them. I said, no, no, I'll do it. all right. Well, what you have to do now is you have to read all this and agree to it, understand why we don't do it anymore. I said, that's fine. I did. And I said, yes, I agree. I sign and I'm, I'm fine. But, but I thought it was better. I said, why'd you stop testing? You used to test every year for that. Yeah, we decided it's better not to know. Right. Really? Well, again, I learned about this for,

[03:11:04] for the MRI that I need to get on what could be a herniated disc. It could be worse because I might need surgery and whatnot. And what, what happened? People who didn't see the pre-show, I have no idea what happened. All I know is I thought I slept on my neck funny. It exacerbated, continued my whole left side. Like I have, you know, my arm is, is fairly weak. I have like numbness in my fingers and my legs. And then it spread. I went to the spine doctor and he was like, yeah, you probably have a herniated disc at C5, you know, in your lower neck. And, and we will,

[03:11:34] you know, go through PT and whatnot. I asked, I said, okay, well how long until I can get imaging? Cause I want to know how bad this is. And he was like, oh, six weeks minimum. And then the next day. So busy or cause it's so expensive. Both. And, and because this is really why he said, usually we know what it is. We don't need to get the MRI, which, you know, there aren't a lot of them, you know, to be done to confirm what we already know. What happened, what changed things was the next day, the numbness, which had only been on my left side, spread to my right side.

[03:12:04] Now I have movement, but my fingers, and even now like my fingers, exactly. And so I, that's why I went to the ER basically to force the hands of the medical establishment to then get my doctor to be at a point where he could write an order. He was concerned and he's, he's, he's great. But then trying to even track down a place to get an MRI was difficult. And in my research on this, I read the exact same thing you did, which is that there are a lot of studies where they don't want people getting

[03:12:31] MRIs because in their experience, I guess it's kind of a holistic thing. It's like, a people either don't want to know B it might not tell them anything conclusive that they don't already have details on, et cetera. And that's all well and good. You should have an MRI because you have symptoms that clearly. Correct. But this is the problem with health insurance in this country. It's very sad. This is the only developed nation in the world that has medical bankruptcy. We don't have good care. Not,

[03:12:59] which is not to say that in a nationalized insurance situation, you'd be able to get an MRI right away. You might be waiting five, six weeks for that too. I might be right. But, but in this case, like I probably wouldn't have had to go to an ER to get to that point where like, and I'm in the most privileged of privileged positions, right? Like I could not be more privileged. I have very good health insurance, you know, offered by my company. I have HSA funds if I needed to pay for it out of pocket. I live in a city. I live down the street from three amazing hospitals, including like the,

[03:13:29] the one like level, you know, one trauma center, like in like the, you know, like Pacific Northwest, right? Like it's literally down the street from where I am. I've, you know, very good. The best of everything. I have the best of everything. And I still, and again, it's a miracle that my husband worked miracles that I was able to get, you know, an appointment quickly, but we still, I still had to manipulate the system, not manipulate. I had to advocate for myself in this. That's what you have to do. That's just the U S healthcare system. Exactly. And, and that squeaky wheel gets the grease.

[03:13:58] And that was the thing. I knew that when I went up with the doctor earlier this week, and I asked specifically about that and I would have waited six, eight weeks, whatever. It was the next day when the symptoms progressed and I went, okay, I can't just be, you know, the thing that bugs me is that every family has a story like this. This is so universal. We've got to do better. I don't, I don't know what we have to do, but we've got to do better. Well, we've got to stop treating health like a commodity. Yeah. It's just,

[03:14:28] or a for-profit. That's, that's the thing, right? Private equity. I was having this conversation with my husband, like, you know, private equity has come in and has bought all these, you know, you know, Amazon medical one, right? Yeah. What, what, one medical who I go to and I, I, you know, still have good experiences with, but like, you know, but it's beyond that. Like there are a lot of private equity companies that over the past, like 30 years, they've been slowly buying up all these practices. And even in the last 10 years, like, you know, my dermatologist used to be that I, that I saw in Atlanta, like they were bought by a private equity fund, you know,

[03:14:58] who bought all the chains and turn them into various things. And the doctors, you know, their whole, like, you know, like they're the things that they're rated on and the things that they are required to do are different because now there's a, a, a profit motive attached to it. And, and there should never be a profit motive attached to medicine. If we really care about health in this country, if we really wanted to make America healthy again, then we wouldn't be making it a profit, you know, a profiteering point. We wouldn't be trying to do that. We would actually be trying to, you know, effectively solve people's problems.

[03:15:28] And sometimes that might mean less MRIs or, you know, like less like blood tests. And that's, that's fair enough, but you know, it should be up to the doctor's determination and not what some statistical analysis report is saying. Exactly. Or wearable. Or some, some, right. Or wearable. Or wearable that what, what's his face? Uh, RFK keeps saying. Isn't it interesting? We're all wearing these wearables cause we're trying to get better health, but we're not getting it from the people we really need it from. Christina. I hope. It works out. I hope you get the care you need. I mean,

[03:15:58] I'm going to obviously like I will, you know, I have good people who help, help advocate for me if I can't do it, but yeah, thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Hang in there. Uh, so nice to see you again. Welcome back to the world. Very glad to be back. I miss you guys. That you were hiding. No, I mean, I wasn't hiding. I was, I had a, I had a great year, but, but I'm, but I'm glad to be back. It's a good thing. Hey, you know what? Deep mind came to me and said, we need a podcaster. I would go. I would go. I mean, what an opportunity to be,

[03:16:27] be right there are the front lines of, of something that's changing our world. Uh, absolutely. I completely understand. It's great to see you again though, Victoria. It's great to have you back. I hope we will get you back again. And again, I just think you're fantastic. Both of you. Thank you. Made this show so good. Thank you for being here. Uh, she's a senior reviewer at the verge and I will be looking for your review of the P clam or whatever they call it. You know, I'll call it the P I've been calling it the PP scanner, but I think I might call it the P clam.

[03:16:57] I was going to say, it does look like a clam. I think honestly, like a clamshell. I'm sorry. Uh, a little scallop in my toilet. Why is that a scallop in your toilet? It's a step towards the demolition man future. It is. This is the demolition man come to life. Thank you, Victoria. Thank you, Christina. Special thanks to of course, Benito Gonzalez, our producer and a technical director. Thanks to our club members who make this possible. Your, your support is very much appreciated.

[03:17:27] Club twit is 25% of our operating costs. Now that means without you, we would have to cut back. Fewer people, fewer shows, fewer club events, but thanks to you and the club. We've got a lot going on. Uh, if you're not a member of club, twit, twit. Dot TV slash club. Twit. We had this good time. We've got a coupon for 10% off the annual plan. Great for gifting. Great for yourself. If you want to gift yourself, uh, there are lots of benefits, including access to the club, twit discord,

[03:17:57] bunch of events coming up. In fact, Monday, we're going to have part two of the horror in the cornfield, our dungeons and dragons adventure dungeon master. Micah Sargent will lead me, Paul Therott, Paris, Martin O'Jonathan Bennett, and Jacob Ward through the twisting corn maze. As we try to get out the horror in the cornfield, that's 2 PM Pacific, 5 PM Eastern 2200 tomorrow for club twit members.

[03:18:24] Lots of other things going on our book club. We've got the photo assignments. I mean, just, I can go on and on. Uh, and of course, ad free versions of all the shows. So please join the club. Twit. Dot TV slash club. Twit. We really need you. We want you. And we're very happy to have you. And thanks to all our existing club to it members. We do this show Sunday afternoons, 2 PM Pacific, 5 PM Eastern 2200 UTC. I say that because you can't actually watch this live with all the swear words intact.

[03:18:55] We stream it on YouTube, Twitch, uh, x.com, Facebook, LinkedIn, and kick. We also stream into the club to discord for club members. Uh, we, we watch the chat. We chat with you, uh, in all of those platforms. So please join us, uh, for the live show. After the fact, you can download copies of the show, audio and video from our website, twit.tv. There's a YouTube channel dedicated to the video of this week in tech. There is also, of course, and probably the best way to get the show.

[03:19:23] You could subscribe in your favorite podcast client. There's an RSS feed. So subscribe and you'll get it automatically choose audio or video or both. Thank you everybody for being here. Thanks to our club members again. Uh, and we'll see you next week, but for now, another twit is in the can. Bye. Amazing. Bye.