TWiT 1092: You Brought a Knife to a Wolf Fight - Apple Accuses OpenAI of Trade Secret Theft

[00:00:00] It's time for TWiT. This Week in Tech, our favorite Frenchman is here, Patrick Beja from Le Bleu. Wesley Faulkner is also here, developer relations and from Microsoft co-pilot Lou Maresca. Blockbuster news this week, Apple sues OpenAI. It could be a big one. We'll also talk about Meta. They say they could be fined as much as $1.4 trillion. They're only worth $1.5.

[00:00:28] And yes, Anthropic did it again. Stay tuned. TWiT is next. This episode is brought to you by Black Hat USA. If you listen to this show, you go deep on the technical detail. Well, so does Black Hat. For nearly three decades, it's been where the security industry's most rigorous research gets presented and pressure tested. More than a hundred hands-on trainings taught by practitioners who actually deployed in live environments, not lecturers reading from slides.

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[00:02:12] This Week in Tech. Yeah, post-toad 1092. Recorded Sunday, July 12th, 2026. You brought a knife to a wolf fight. It's time for TWIT. This Week in Tech. The show we cover the week's tech news. Hello everybody. Great to see you. And great to see our wonderful panel from Paris, France. Patrick Beja is here. Actually, I'm in Finland at the moment. You went back. I ran away. I ran away from the heat. Wow.

[00:02:42] And I'm this very old room of the house because my kids play the Switch all day and I can't be on the computer next to them. So I fled. I fled. Most France. You mean the Nintendo Switch 2 they play all day? They do. Well, not all day. It's a vacation, but still. But yeah, they bring their friends over. They're loud. So I'm in a closet essentially. Oh man. Which games are they playing? I just started playing Astroneer.

[00:03:11] And what's that? Is that Mila the mouse or whatever? The digger? Mila the Hollower. Yeah. Mila the Hollower. Yeah. We just tried Yoshi's, Yoshi and the Mysterious Book. It is wonderful. They've always been a little bit, a little bit like too kiddie like the Yoshi games. This one is really beautiful. I reckon. That explains it. The seventh grader who lives down the street said that, told me that.

[00:03:40] So now I have to try it. We were comparing notes. I don't know if it's for you, but for kids it's definitely. Matthew said it's good, so I'll give it a shot. Great to see you, Patrick. Wesley Faulkner is also here from Works Not Working. Although you could go to Wesley83.com and find all of his works. Hello, Wesley. Hey, it's good to be back. I love the show. We love you. Oh, we love having you on. And I do owe you a thank you because you introduced me to the crazy man.

[00:04:09] In fact, now Jeff Atwood and I are doing a monthly show called, I love the name by the way. Jeff Atwood, the creator of Stack Overflow Discourse and the Coding Horror Blog. So he's all about coding. He decided to name the show Off By One. And it is definitely off. And he's the one that's off by. But it's a lot of fun. He has crazy amounts of energy and the biggest heart. And he just, he's flying back from Berlin right now. He was a win.

[00:04:39] We are developers. I watched a stream of that just the other day. And it's just the same message is that we all need to take care of each other, which I wholeheartedly believe in. Yeah. He's awesome. And if you look behind me, Jeff is watching us. He's over our shoulder. Oh my God. Also here, Lou Maresca. Lou Maresca. Good to see you. Thanks for having me. Former host of this week in Enterprise Tech.

[00:05:06] He's an engineering leader at Microsoft Co-Pilot. Yes. Yes. Looking, working on agent mode for Excel right now. It's getting very busy. Agentic Excel. Yes. Ooh, that sounds so interesting. Lou, I give Lou credit for putting Python in Excel. I don't know if that's appropriate or inappropriate, but I think it was a good move anyway. Yeah. Yeah. We still use it a lot. Yeah, absolutely. Well, it's great to have all three of you. Welcome to the show.

[00:05:36] We do have some Microsoft news, but let's start with kind of a blockbuster story that broke, I think on Friday. Mark Gurman at Bloomberg had the breaking news. Apple is suing open AI for a trade secret theft.

[00:05:54] It all started when the, one of the guys who was responsible for the iPhone, Tang Tan, vice president of product design, leading development of the iPhone, the Apple watch, AirPods, and several other key Apple products left abandoned Apple to go to become chief hardware. Hardware. Wait a minute. Hardware officer at open AI. Open AI is not a hardware company, except that maybe they're planning on it.

[00:06:24] Apple alleges that Tang Tan brought his laptop with him, his Apple work laptop with him, including a bunch of key files. Uh, this is a big lawsuit. Uh, of course, open AI says they have no interest in other companies trade secrets. It did. It was funny. It did kind of trigger a back and forth, uh, Twitter war between Elon Musk and Sam Altman.

[00:06:55] Sam said, I guess, I guess, uh, our new model five, six is pretty good. Elon's paying attention to me again. He accused Sam of being a theft thief, always a thief. Once a thief, always a thief. Uh, it's actually been very entertaining. Um, we've seen these kinds of lawsuits before. Sure. There's some concern that, uh, this could impact open AI's IPO, which is imminent.

[00:07:22] It could also, and I would be unhappy about this effect, whatever hardware plans they have. You remember they spent more than $3 billion to bring Johnny Ive into the fold to do some sort of AI device with Tang Tan there. Maybe they want to do a phone. Maybe they want to do a pendant. Maybe they want to do glasses. It's unknown. Apple says you're stealing our, uh, stuff. Wesley, what do you think?

[00:07:50] I think that the, well, the complaint is also that open AI coached them about putting in their two weeks notice. And then, so they can still have access to the information and to continue to pull IP over time. Here's the, here's the, for the language in the lawsuit. Open AI has counseled departing employees not to disclose their next employer and given advice on how to avoid it.

[00:08:14] They can still avoid the quote dreaded walk out and quote that would promptly remove them from the company rather than giving them a standard two weeks in which they could continue to access Apple's confidential information and trade secrets. I have to think they wouldn't have asserted that unless they had smoking gun of some kind, an email. So you also have to think about open AI. They're in a lawsuit with the New York times. Everybody's stealing information.

[00:08:41] And the question is what IP do they currently respect? So in terms of their track record, it's not looking good, uh, because it's, they've blurred the lines about what they feel entitled to and what they can just take and steal. Um, which is also funny to hear about from what, uh, Elon says, because apparently Brock just distills from all the other models. And that's how they, they got to their, that's how they said that they architected it wrong.

[00:09:09] Um, because that's how they are trying to move forward quickly. Um, but there aren't all AI's basic, aren't all the models trained basically on everything. Similar data, similar to everything. Right. Yeah, exactly. They grounded everything. In some cases, and this includes Apple, uh, a database of pirated books. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if they do on pirated data, but I do on every day that they get access to. Yeah.

[00:09:36] It feels like distillation is a little bit, I, I don't know that it is, you know, uh, illegal or actually unethical, but it feels like it's a different thing even than, uh, training your models on everything you can get your hands on, which again, could be, you know, could, could be a bad thing, but it feels like distillation is another category of bad things.

[00:09:59] And yeah, and especially when you're, when you're doing that, accusing others of doing bad things feels a little bit like disingenuous. Yeah. Anthropics really taken the whole early now attitude about all this accusing China of using their models for distillation. Um, that's an interesting point though, that there's a difference between ingesting the world's information and then, then taking a model that has already done that and training it in, in post training, which is what distillation is.

[00:10:28] Uh, to be smarter. Well, the thing is, so training on the whole world models, uh, or the whole world content is a question of, uh, IP and intellectual property and, and, uh, copyright. Right. Right. And it very, it very well may be that, uh, copyright holders are right to be upset about it. I'm not saying, you know, whether it is or it isn't might be distillation is the.

[00:10:58] The companies, the labs that are trying to do the best model in the world who can't and who need to use the existing frontier models as a crutch to develop theirs. Uh, and it's very, uh, capital efficient and energy efficient. And it works really well. We've seen that with Chinese companies, uh, managing to reach levels of competency for their models, probably through distillation.

[00:11:23] But I understand that, you know, the, the frontier labs like anthropic and, uh, open AI having done all of the research and the hard work of stealing other people's, uh, AI and, uh, sorry, uh, IP and copyright. Right. Then see the others using their models to train their own and think that this is unfair.

[00:11:47] I think it is, you know, um, yeah, it's, it's also, if one is bad, the other is probably also bad, but different in a different way. It's just different. Yeah. There's a similar metaphor to it though. Like if you think about how people use agents today, the way they don't have the money to make the agent as smart as they need it to be. And so they use other AI foundational models for as, as advisories, right? So people to advise the agent on how to learn or what to do, or to be more, just more discreet.

[00:12:15] And I think that's exactly what other model companies are doing, right? They're using foundational models as advisors to go and make sure that they focus on the right data or the right thing. Um, I, I, you know, I, I see it as an optimization more than anything else. I think it's what you would hire physicists to give a trained model physics questions, look at its answer, correct it, help tune it. It's a, yeah, it's, it's post-training it's tuning. Right. Yeah. So it is very different than building the model.

[00:12:45] The, I think it's important to note that, uh, Tan did not go from Apple to open AI. He left Apple in 2024, co-founded an AI device startup called products Inc. Johnny Ive and Apple design veteran Evans Hankey joined him at products Inc. Then a year later, open AI acquires products Inc.

[00:13:10] That was the six and a half billion dollars that they paid for, we, everybody said for Johnny Ive, but you also got a, uh, uh, Tan and Hankey in that. By the way, Ivan Hankey are not named in the lawsuit. Apple said it tried to resolve it out of court months ago, asking open AI to cease and assist the efforts and eliminate any proprietary materials. Apple said they didn't respond. So we were forced to, uh, to sue. I have to point out.

[00:13:39] See, go ahead, Wesley. Yeah. I was gonna say that's a leap saying that they're putting the blame on open AI as the final receiver of the possible IP. It is. I mean, that's a year later. Yeah. Yeah. Without thinking about the interim step and how it couldn't, they're kind of like, I'm gonna say absolving, but they're not focusing on the person who physically or technologically transfer the IP away from, uh, uh, um, Apple into their own repository of knowledge.

[00:14:06] And that's, it sounds like they're going for the bag of like finding the money without trying to establish the poison pill saying this person did something illegal and everything after that is corrupt. And so it seems like they're going for the hard problem first, which means that this feels like mostly a PR play than anything else to, to, to, to public, to kind of public, like put them in the public and punish them through the public channels rather than through the court system.

[00:14:42] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:16] And so it's, for their, for their contract disputes or whatever, because they made sense, they made, um, specific references to, uh, to open AI, uh, chat GPT and the iPhone as saying, it's totally separate. Which, which, which sounds like thus protest too much, like calling it explicitly. Open AI is suing Apple for that. Right. Because the deal, the contract with Apple didn't yield whatever usage. I didn't even mention. You're right.

[00:15:45] They were partners. Remember that, uh, when you asked Siri a question, it couldn't answer. It would then go to chat GPT. So this is the, a breach of a partnership. And also remember Apple decided to go with answer, uh, anthropic, right? Gemini. Gemini. I'm sorry. Google. It's a little confusing at leaving. And we, we all thought, wow, that didn't they have a relationship with open AI. So Lou, you were about to say something. Go ahead.

[00:16:13] No, I was going to say, Wesley, Wesley's point of view is brilliant. I think it's, it's definitely a, a marketing ploy here that you need to think about it. The way it read is the article read to me as like a postmortem for an incident where they were trying to figure out where the data was. Being leaked or how it was being leaked, but on the competition side, I didn't want to call it talk out. Like obviously with Microsoft, uh, you know, obviously in general, most companies, they compete, you know, simultaneously at one layer, right? About secrets and data and enterprise scale. And then another layer they cooperate. Right.

[00:16:42] And I think we've seen that with Apple and Microsoft, we've seen that with chat GPT, open AI and Apple, you're going to continue to see it. And I think it's just the way of the world at this point. I think you're going to continue to see that type of read Albergati, who we love. He's been on the show many times, writes at Semaphore says initial allegations in the suit should be taken with a grain of salt. They are meant to make the accused party look as guilty as possible. He says, Apple at first glance appears to have a pretty good case if it could prove anything.

[00:17:09] But the lawsuit is also a gigantic reminder that Apple's under major pressure from AI in general. It's not just that Apple somehow didn't see AI coming in as playing catch up. The technology changes the company's fundamental reality. This is interesting. Apple's entire business is predicated on the consumer desire for simplicity. Customers pay a huge premium to be locked into Apple's ecosystem where everything just works.

[00:17:36] And in doing so, they forego the opportunity to buy this cool, innovative new technology that sits outside the ecosystem. But AI is the ultimate simplifier can bring that back into the ecosystem. And of course, that means that eventually Apple's ecosystem lock in disappears. I think that's an interesting point of view. The damage the immediate damage is to open a ice IPO. We don't know when that's going to happen. They've filed, I think, for it.

[00:18:03] Yeah, it seems Altman was, according to some sources thinking, well, we're not getting a billion, a thousand trillion. Yeah, a trillion. This year, so let's wait until 2027 because he really wants, you know, a trillion. He needs the money. I guess he does. But yeah, this isn't helping his case for sure.

[00:18:26] They are naming Tren though and he's an employee now at OpenAI, right? The one thing that's a little bit suspicious is he left the company in 2024. Did they only realize he took his computer like six months later or the timing does seem suspicious? But they would have telemetry and all of that stuff. They know exactly. I would guess right. Yeah, laptop is.

[00:18:53] And if he still has it and has had it for two years, that's kind of on Apple. They can't tell you they at least know they don't have it in their offices, right? They have MDM. Yeah, it should have been locked out with that after 30 days. I mean, it's like, yeah. Well, or two weeks anyway. Yeah. I mean, if he did do what he's accused of having done, it is pretty bad, right? I think we all agree that if he did do that, it's it's really bad.

[00:19:22] And it should be provable, I suppose. But it's a little bit different from everything else we've been talking about because if he did do it, we know it's bad. There's no question about it, like with training data and distillation and everything. The whole question is, is it possible to prove? And I would think that Apple could prove it pretty easily, right? Given the telemetry they have. So I'm not sure what the whole like hubbub is about.

[00:19:51] Either he did it or he didn't and they can prove it or they can't. So yeah, it is dressed up, it seems. They need to prove that the data or the files or whatever are on open AI servers. That's what they have to prove in order to make this ultimate argument. If they didn't enough that he took it, then that's him. They're not, they're not, Sue, that's what the point I was trying to make before. They're not suing him. They're trying to sue open AI as a company. And so them skipping that step of them looking at who took it initially.

[00:20:21] Interesting. Is assuming the intentions and the orchestration was from open AI, which is a way harder thing to prove. And so that that's, it's going to be, they should prove that he stole it. And then, then that itself is a crime. And then why he stole it, the intention would then maybe lead to open AI, but they're trying to shortcut this because they know that each one of these steps is going to take so much longer that they're really just trying to win the PR cycle. Well, and I always point this out.

[00:20:51] Apple has learned from all many other lawsuits, most recently, Apple versus Epic, that nobody wins in these things because of discovery. Everybody ends up looking, there's always egg on the face of both parties because the emails get discovered. The, the, the, the smoking gun gets discovered perhaps, but so does who knows what else, you know, Apple trade secrets, maybe even. So it's, it's, it's always, I imagine Apple didn't want to file this suit.

[00:21:20] Perhaps they won't pursue it through the discovery stage. Maybe it's just the damage they wanted to do is done already. We haven't also talked about the other thing. What's the other thing? Apple may be coming out their own AI hardware device and, and open AI will not release any device, even if it's ready right now under this cloud of scrutiny. And so this. Oh, they want to hold it back. Right. So this kicks back their launch date.

[00:21:44] If they even had it ready for enough time for Apple to catch up and maybe beat them to market. There was some speculation. They might do that this year. Apple wants to do what meta has done fairly successfully, which is release smart glasses. Right. I, this actually let's, we're going to move on, but just briefly talk about what form factor should open AI be looking at?

[00:22:11] What is the best form factor for an AI able enabled device? All of you are wearing spectacles. No one knows. No one knows. No one knows. And Apple is apparently again, rumors going to throw a lot of spaghetti at the wall. They will have, they will have apparently glasses and a wearable pin, whatever, and a camera in the AirPods.

[00:22:37] You know, it's going to be every way they can because their problem is that their AI is on the phone. Right. And the phone is usually in your pocket. And the phone is usually in your pocket. So what you want, if you want to feed your AI information about what you're doing is have access to sound and sight outside of your pocket.

[00:22:56] And whether that is glasses or headphones, I mean, your AirPods or a small pendant that you were on your, on your neck. Maybe some of those will work. Maybe some won't, but I think the form factor, the one that makes the most sense is the glasses. But not everyone wears glasses and maybe some people will use one, some people will use another.

[00:23:25] But the whole point for Apple is not to have the whole device, I think, it's to have eyes and ears for Siri in your pocket. And that makes it a very different engineering wise and device wise proposition from the AI companies devices, which need to do basically everything and that are severely hampered by that requirement. Having the phone is kind of a great start, right?

[00:23:54] Because it's a powerful engine, much more powerful than you could just have an append in your glasses. And it has all your data and all your apps. It already knows everything. So it can be an agent. That's what this new Siri AI is. They're doubling down on Siri's already got all your text messages and your, and all that stuff. Go ahead, Wesley. I think the best, and this is a totally different direction is a USB-C dongle. I like this is new. What, how, tell us your thing.

[00:24:21] When you think about like the computers that were sold out for these Mac minis to run open call and all this stuff, it's because they want it to run and they want it to just have just a plug and play, do all my things. Right. If you have a USB dongle, you can use it in a personal and a business context. Kind of like a Fire TV stick or a Roku stick, right? Yeah. It's got a CPU. It's got some RAM. RAM's too expensive to put much in. But also it has access to your hardware in terms of your hard drive.

[00:24:51] It'll have access to your camera. It'll have access to your internet connection. It'll have access to install things, manipulate files, have its own storage. That's really interesting. You know, Ubiquiti sells for 800 bucks, something they call an AI key that enables you. It's just a little box you plug into your Ubiquiti router that enables AI features in your cameras. It is what you just described, basically.

[00:25:17] It's an AI engine that you plug in and they make 800 bucks and you plug it in and suddenly your cameras get smart. And if it's USB-C, it also could plug into your phone. So if you think about the MagSafe, like attachment on the back of your phone with maybe a USB-C cable, now you have all the same power, but mobile. Yes, exactly. Right. And it can leverage a lot of the hardware. I do too. Nobody's ever said this before that I've heard.

[00:25:45] I think you guys are engineers talking about engineer stuff and real people will want their phone. And what Apple is going to do is provide an AI that you're going to scoff at and laugh at because it doesn't do everything you want it to do. But 80% of the, you know, the Apple model, 80% of the people will get 80% of what they want done and that will be good enough.

[00:26:12] I will scoff because, because even today, Siri, the new, everything they talk about in the new Siri AI I've been doing for months with a local agent running on my PC. It already knows all that stuff. It's able to, I can query stuff. So yeah, you're right. The, the, the, the tiny sliver of people who are using AI at the frontier might scoff, but, but this suddenly becomes something for the, for the everybody, for every human.

[00:26:42] Um, I like the idea of glasses, but there's a pro privacy issue with these for them to be really useful. They need a camera and everybody hates that idea. Um, there's also the issue for people like us who wear spectacles. I'm not gonna, I'm gonna have to buy a lens for this, right? It's going to be, so it's, it's, how they're going to make us leave our glasses outside the room when we walk into a private room. Yes. I have to have my glasses. So yeah. Right.

[00:27:12] My wife was talking about meta glasses, uh, a couple of days ago. And she was like, the day someone comes to our home with those, they're leaving them at the door. She's not, I do not want this in my home. And I understand why. I think. And you can't even just, because the person who has them, you can't trust them. It's not just that you can't trust the company that operates them. Right. Because you, they may be having this feature where they do a passive recording all the time, and you don't know where that's going to.

[00:27:40] It could even be going to a third party company company that they're using to even go through the logs and go through the telemetry. And so the data gets out there, whether you try to or not. So yeah, they're not safe at all. That's going to be an interesting problem to solve for Apple. You know, the privacy protecting company when, whenever they inevitably come out with the phones or AirPods with cameras. Like that's going to be, that's going to be an interesting one.

[00:28:08] I read, uh, an expose the other day, what XA this is on, uh, on GitHub. It's a gist. What XAI's Grok CLI sends to XAI. Somebody analyzed on the wire, all the content that Grok sends. And at first I was horrified, but then I realized, oh no, every AI does this. It has to do that. It transmits the contents of every file it reads, right? It's not processing it locally. It has to upload it to the cloud.

[00:28:38] It uploads whole repositories. Of course, all of this stuff. At first I went, oh my God, Grok. But then I thought, well, that's how they, all the frontier AIs work. Everything for it to do the work has to be uploaded to its servers for it to process. Now you may say, well, but they have agreements. They certainly do with enterprises not to use that for training or not to look at it, but I don't know how much we could trust those agreements. Yes.

[00:29:08] I think it's going to hit people suddenly that when you're using a cloud-based AI, everything you do is available to that cloud. Am I wrong, Lou? I mean, that's the case, isn't it? It's just this exact case. I mean, we just, I don't know if you saw the announcement of the Solara badge. I mean, that's exactly what's happening there. It's connected to a private cloud. In order to get enterprise to accept this, you have to say that. You have to say, well, we're going to do a, and this is what Apple's saying to customers, we're going to do a private cloud.

[00:29:38] But there's still a certain amount of trust involved on the end user that that private cloud is well designed. It really is private that it can't be broken into. We see so many data breaches. I don't know if anybody has faith in anything that claims to be private. So that's- I think if you're a big enough company, you can get something on premises. Oh yeah. On the premise. Well, we were talking about this on our AI user group on Friday. The Department of Defense is exactly what the Department of Defense does.

[00:30:06] It's running Fable, but it's running it on prem or in effect on prem, maybe an AWS private cloud or whatever. But yeah, they're not sending anything to Anthropic. So if you're big enough, that's the case. But for you and me, I don't know. I think any responsible company should look at that. If they're- Well, consumers are going to become aware of it, right? They are maybe right now.

[00:30:34] Yeah, but consumers, you know, do we even have privacy anymore? Do we care? Oh, we might care, but I don't- I mean, everyone's using Gmail, right? So at that point, you're like, okay, whatever. That's a good- It is a step further if you have cameras in your home filming everything. Not for you, Leo, but for normal people. I keep my camera information local with local models. I'm using a Quen model for the vision analysis and it's running locally.

[00:31:02] Aren't you using an AI life recorder anymore? Like you don't have a pin anymore? No, my- Like your friend. Lisa put the kibosh on. Okay. But seriously, but honestly, I still want that.

[00:31:20] I still think there's this real tension between people who naturally, including me and mostly my wife, want full privacy and people who love the idea of, wouldn't it be great if my personal AI knew everything that happened in my life and I could, you know, have recordings of everything of audio and video and I could query it.

[00:31:42] I could say, especially as I get older and there's a big swath of us baby boomers who are approaching this time of life where we're getting forgetful. And I think this would be really wonderfully valuable. But I think also all the people in my life say, well, you can't- What? Stop it. Knock it off. I think it's an interesting prospect. It's essentially having, let's say, a form of photographic memory, right? Yes.

[00:32:12] You just can't remember everything about your life. I think there's something very seductive about this. Absolutely. And I wouldn't mind having it. I think the concern would be, you know, what company owns it and what do they do with it? But even then for me and you, you know, we're very public people. So, that is less for us maybe. Gordon Bell was the first to come up with this.

[00:32:38] Of course, he was at DEC, very famous, designed PDP and all of that. And his wife, Gwen Bell, suffered from Alzheimer's late in life. Gordon was used to wear a- I've interviewed him where- he's long gone now, but he wore a camera around his neck and recorded every 10 seconds everything that was going on. And this was all for Gwen, but also because of Gwen. He was aware of this and had this notion. And I was inspired by it.

[00:33:08] He was actually at Microsoft Research when I interviewed him. Really brilliant computer scientist. But this was long before the age of where we started thinking about privacy. So- Speaking of privacy though, who owns this when you're gone? And so, do you want a whole data dump of everything you've ever done in the hands of someone or a company that may not have your best interests at heart? Well, I think we've all learned from the fable rug pull that the ideal is a local model running local data.

[00:33:38] Not- none of it going out of the home network. Right? In theory, but think about it. Like you still don't know every licensing agreement you ever clicked yes on. You don't- So- I control what's- I control what's going out of my home network, right? Don't I? While you're alive. Yes. Oh, and I could set it up so that there's a dead man switch if I cared about that. That if I don't respond in five days- It deletes everything.

[00:34:05] But remember like in the rundown, there's a story about Microsoft and there's this like UUID version or some sort of device ID. And they're able to track everything they did on there. A tracker's arrest reveals Microsoft can track users via Windows device ID. Well, you know what? Yes. First of all, let me say this. Lou MM works for Microsoft but does not represent or speak for Microsoft in any way.

[00:34:29] And Lou, if you wish to recuse yourself at any time from any conversation, you are more than welcome to do so. Let's take a break. We should, we should. That's an interesting story. There's actually quite a bit of Microsoft to talk about when we continue. I, you know, I, it's just a- You think you hold the hardware is all and sometimes maybe you don't. No, I agree. I don't use Windows though. But actually this is, this is a super interesting, who owns things like AI.

[00:34:58] There's a bunch of companies who are training AIs to replicate, like to make digital twins, you know, not the CEOs. I would make a digital twin of myself. Yes. But if a company makes a digital twin of an expert they hired, you know, train them on their email, on their conversations and everything. And then that person leaves the company. Did Meta try to do that with its employees? Does, does the person, can they take their own like AI twin with them?

[00:35:25] If they don't, does the company still own the AI twin and can query that twin that has the expertise of the person that left? Within the, like, do they own it? Probably. I guess. I don't know.

[00:35:41] But like who owns the thing becomes much more important when it becomes, you know, when goes from private data about you to an emulation of your expertise of your intelligence. Well, I'll put it another way. When Captain Kirk transports down to the planet surface and then transports back up is the Captain Kirk who came back the same Captain Kirk who left in the first place. I would submit. No, it's a copy. One is killed and destroyed and another one. Yes.

[00:36:10] It's a copy. Well, it's a Perseus boat thing. Right. But if Captain Kirk stays on the surface and is on the, the, the, the enterprise, you got a real problem. Yes. Yes. Because the people on the surface can have access to Captain Kirk's expertise without paying for it. And, uh, you know, the, the, the, what's the name of the Star Trek?

[00:36:40] Uh, the Borg, the Federation. Is it the Federation? Yeah. The United Federation of Planets. The Federation is paying Captain Kirk's salary and the other ones are still getting his expertise without paying anything for it. I feel that's, that's, that's a problem. That's a problem. There is so many black mirror episodes of where this is exactly the case.

[00:37:01] And the one where they do a Star Trek kind of like spoof, they took the copy of the creator and like put them in the game and saying, you're making new stages and levels for the rest of your life, which is this digital life thing. So it's exactly the same thing. But I wanted to go back to the example of who owns what there's, you know, the copyright claim saying any, anything that's made by AI is not copyrightable. And so when you think about the things that is being generated, that's what I mean that you don't know if you own it.

[00:37:28] And then also there are some open source licenses saying like any changes need to go back to whoever created the original. So there's several different ways that you may not be thinking of, of how data might be owned or not owned by you or might be taken. And so it's, it's ambiguous right now. And this is something that still is being worked. It's actually not ambiguous when you, when you set an employment contract, doesn't the company own all your work? Is that work though?

[00:37:56] Is a model trained on your expertise part? This is what's so exciting. When you're using a Hermes agent and it's doing stuff on your behalf. Do you own that work? I mean, think about. I better. As the orchestrator. See what I mean? Right. I can't copyright it though. The courts have already ruled. It's very good. No. So you have to trademark your key phrases like. Yeah. Prompts are trademarked.

[00:38:24] This is, we are living in weird times. Let's just, let's just stipulate that. And we're going to take a break and come back in just a little bit, by the way. Uh, apparently, uh, this has all been explored already. I didn't even know this in star Trek, lower decks. Darren Occy says Boimler got copied by the transporter and you ended up with two of them for the rest of the show. I have not seen lower decks, so I don't know. But, uh, of course there's, you know what? There's nothing we can come up with.

[00:38:52] It hasn't already been written about in star Trek. We haven't touched on two Vicks and that whole thing, but yeah, exactly. There's nothing. It's nothing new under the sun. We'll have more in just a bit with Patrick Beja, Wesley Faulkner and Lou Maresca. It's great to have all three of you on this wonderful day, a beautiful day for a twit. Our show today brought to you by, huh? Actually perfect timing. Delete me. Uh, you know, this is something actually that comes up for us here at twit.

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[00:40:43] actually a link to Google, Google docs. It was a link to a man in the middle to Google docs. And that's how they got into our workspace. That's why attacks using verified personal information are five times more likely to succeed. And the average incident cost small businesses more than $120,000 on average. Can you handle that? One in four businesses will be impacted this year alone.

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[00:43:34] So Microsoft was in the news this week. Asha Sharma, the new head of Microsoft, it's increasingly look like she might have been brought in to do this. The company eliminated on Monday, 4,800. Actually, this is from all of Microsoft. A lot of them are from Xbox, but Amy Coleman, who's the HR boss at Microsoft said 4,800 roles were eliminated Monday morning.

[00:44:02] They said, Coleman said, Microsoft's doing the layoffs to reduce its global head count by about 2.1%. This is not the first layoff Microsoft's been doing them for a while. And they, and she said it's because the business of technology is changing. So Microsoft has to change with it. This is the quote, the way technology is built, deployed and used is transforming faster than at any point in my time here. I would, I would grant you that. She's been at a, been at HR at Microsoft for 17 years.

[00:44:30] That means we will need to adjust resources and roles and shift how we operate. So we can have the greatest impact for our customers. Look, it's hard. It's hard, I feel for the people who got laid off. Um, it's hard for the people who stay. I'm sure Lou will vouch for that. It means more work means losing trusted friends and colleagues. Um, Microsoft did say these people are not being replaced by AI. That's, I think, thank you, Microsoft, for being honest.

[00:45:00] I think that's always been the case with a lot of these layoffs, but plenty of companies are willing to blame AI. Um, she says AI is changing how work gets done. Microsoft never did what meta did briefly until they, until they heard the splash back. They were actually tracking all of their employees clicks and text and everything. Yeah. They said to train our models to do what?

[00:45:29] To replace our employees. Uh, anyway, uh, first of all, my heart goes out to people who've lost their jobs. That's always hard. Um, but I also kind of, I'm sympathetic. I understand how these things happen, but now you're, you cover gaming Patrick. So I'm curious what you think because a number of very well-known, uh, sick, even successful gaming companies under the Microsoft umbrella lost some or all of their team.

[00:45:59] Yeah, it's, I don't know how much, uh, how much into the details you want to get, but this is mostly, uh, Xbox employees. And as you mentioned, 3,200 of the 4,800 were Xbox. Yeah. Right. So it's 1,600, uh, today or last week and 1,600 over the next year. Yeah. That means that, uh, there's the people who didn't get laid off this week.

[00:46:28] The axe is hanging over there. Yes, exactly. They don't know what's going to happen in the next few months and that, you know, can't be fun. Um, the, there are, um, okay. So if you want to understand what happened there at Xbox, because, uh, 3,200 people is 20% of the head count of the company. That is a lot of people, right?

[00:46:54] 20% for, for any, uh, organization is a huge amount. Um, so what happened was that. Um, so what happened was that. Xbox has never had a significant success. Their biggest, uh, success was the Xbox 360. Uh, and even then it was kind of neck and neck with the PlayStation. After that, it was kind of failure, not. Well, yeah. Failure after failure. Now Xbox does make money.

[00:47:20] It is profitable, but just 3% margin, which is, you know, not big in any business. Well, it's not losing money. It's not losing money, but, uh, they're not happy with those returns. They did spend like $80 billion, uh, buying up companies to, uh, get content, to get games. So what happened? Well, here's an interesting stat from Asha Sharma. She said 64 cents for every dollar we invested, we lost in a tip of a year.

[00:47:50] That's 64% loss. Yeah. And it was mostly the smaller studios. In fact, they let a couple of smaller studios, Compulsion Games, which did We Happy Few, which was a great game. Double Fine Productions, very famous for Psychonauts and other things, are, are basically, I don't understand what this means. Return, give it, they return to management and will operate independently. So those two, those two are back to being independent studios. They're just, they're spinning them off. They're letting them go. Management, yeah.

[00:48:17] Management essentially got a good deal that they could take back their independence, keep their IP, all of that. There are a couple of studios. That's good. That are, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's good. There's still, I wonder what's going to happen in the next few months for those. Um, they might not be able to operate, uh, with all the people they currently have. Right. You know, there might be layoffs there. There are a couple of other companies. Ninja Theory, which did Hellblade and Undead Labs, which did State of Decay, they were purchased by unnamed somebody else. Yeah.

[00:48:47] Deal is still ongoing and Arcane Lyon, uh, should have the same, I'm saying it with the American accent. Arcane Lyon, uh, is, uh, getting also should be bought by another company as well. But there are more, there are rules in France for layoffs. They cannot just lay off Arcane. Exactly. Yeah. They did Dishonored and Prey for those who don't know. Those are very, very well regarded.

[00:49:13] All of those studios are super, uh, prominent studios. So what happened 10 years ago is that the guy who was in charge of Xbox at the time, Phil Spencer had this idea. He thought, you know what? We're not winning in this undifferentiated, uh, battle with PlayStation. We need to do something different. Let's do Game Pass, a subscription service and, uh, offer gamers a subscription for a ton of great games.

[00:49:40] And, uh, in order to do that, we need to have a lot of studios making great games. Some big triple A experiences, you know, really explosive, uh, single player experiences, some smaller stuff, some even indie flavor games. Bundle all of them in Game Pass for a monthly fee, add some third party partners. Um, and that would make, uh, uh, an offering that gamers would enjoy.

[00:50:06] Now, unfortunately, in order for this to work, the idea could have worked, could have not. It didn't work. Spoiler alert. It didn't work. Uh, it could have, I think. Uh, maybe it's too much to ask for people to, you know, pay a certain amount for a bundle of games where every single games takes up like 10 or 20 hours of your life. Maybe that's not the same as Netflix.

[00:50:28] We'll never know because the problem was they didn't manage to put out big triple A games, like the big system sellers, the games that will motivate the players, the gamers to go subscribe to your thing. Um, because they did have the studios, but somehow the, the, the discussion is ongoing there. It didn't work out. They put out not a single big quality triple A game.

[00:50:58] There were some good games. There were some good indie flavored games, but there wasn't one on the level of what Nintendo or Sony puts out. Why is that? They were all. Yep. So my theory is that, uh, I don't know if it's true, but my theory is that Phil Spencer is, uh, too nice, uh, a person. And he was letting the studios do their thing.

[00:51:21] He was like, I got brought in as the, uh, well, so that happens afterward, but Spencer was respecting the artists to a fault. I think he didn't want to intervene into the studios work. Maybe that's not the case. That's my theory. And they were left kind of, I don't know if it was rather less or they didn't have proper management stewarding their studio. They did have management, but it felt like maybe it wasn't because it wasn't just one company. They have Bethesda.

[00:51:51] They have id software. They have, they have Mojang. Let's not forget Mojang. Well, Mojang is working. Yeah. Mojang is doing minecraft and that's working. And King. You know. The candy crush folks. They're doing okay. They bought King and they had big ambitions on mobile. Nothing came of it. So anyway. King was part of the Blizzard acquisition. Is that right? Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Activision Blizzard. Activision Blizzard. They also bought $70 billion. It's a crazy acquisition.

[00:52:20] Was that, would you call that a success? They fought hard to get that. They got a lot of regulatory pushback. They fought hard to get that Activision Blizzard through. Was it, was it the right thing? I think the games are good, but the, the issue is they are on every platform. So it does nothing for Xbox.

[00:52:38] And it didn't, the goal was to make a game pass into kind of a platform and get to their projections was like 77 million subscribers by 2026. They didn't get past 34, I think. And now there are 30 less than half what they were hoping for. So it didn't work out.

[00:52:59] And with all of those studios not producing the, the engine of that game pass car, they had the wheels, you know, the small indie games, they had the infrastructure. They didn't have the engine. Halo was disappointing. Gears of war was disappointing. Star field was disappointing. All of those big games. Weren't what they should have been. And so the result is that game pass didn't do what it was supposed to do. And Microsoft is not seeing the returns it was hoping for on Xbox.

[00:53:29] So bring in Asha Sharma, lay off 20% of the people, refocus on the big franchises. Like why did we not get a new Elder Scrolls? Why did we not get a new fallout with the TV show working, you know, being popular? Why did we not get there? There are, there, there are tons of IPs that we didn't see.

[00:53:49] And if you don't have those drivers, then it doesn't matter how many awesome little indie games, you know, Compulsion or Obsidian or Double Fine makes. It doesn't matter because it's not enough to, to, to fuel your, your game pass ambitions. So that's what I think happened. Game pass didn't work because it didn't have the major games to push it. And so the, uh, platform that was game pass wasn't successful enough to justify all the spending.

[00:54:18] And Nadella was looking at this and thinking, dude, I gave you $80 billion. You need to, to do something with it. And so the, the one, uh, thing that I take away from it, which is almost surprising is that Xbox, Microsoft is still not getting out of the gaming business. They didn't have a great first Xbox. Xbox 360 was okay. Uh, Xbox one was a disaster.

[00:54:47] Xbox series X and S is kind of a disaster. Game pass is a disaster, not a disaster, but it's not a success. They, they, the success they were hoping for, they could have stopped it. You know, they could have said, okay, we've tried for 20 years. We'll stop, but they are not. And they're hopefully, I don't know how, because their next console is like a hybrid PC console. That's going to cost $1,500. Is there a next Xbox? Yes.

[00:55:13] Project Helix, which could, in theory, that's, that's what we're thinking. And that's what they've hinted at be a windows device that will run windows games because all of a sudden you don't care that you only have, you know, 30 million Xbox owners. You have a platform that is essentially, uh, compatible with windows, which has, you know, however many hundreds of billions.

[00:55:38] Is part of the problem though with future hardware, the, uh, uh, RAM and hard drive crisis? Yes. I mean, very much so. I mean, the, uh, the, the valve steam machine, which is essentially a PC in the format of a console that you connect to your TV costs a thousand bucks minimum. Uh, PlayStation fives nowadays cost like seven, 800 bucks. So project Helix is described.

[00:56:05] It's the next Xbox described as a premium product before the RAM prices increase. How much is that going to cost? How are they going to make that work like the economy? Sharma and others have hinted at, like we need to adapt business models and stuff. But how do you do that? Do you put ads in your, in your games, EA is doing that actually. It's, it's a very difficult problem to solve.

[00:56:31] i don't know how they're going to solve it i know that there are you know a 3200 people who are either out of work or looking at uh being out of work very soon and uh it's it kind of sucks i don't know what they're going to do xbox by the way was very uh was a lot more uh unionized

[00:56:54] than other gaming companies and i wonder if that made the uh layoff conditions better i'd love to know um sorry sorry to cut you off sorry uh i just wanted to say it just for the people who are laid off unfortunately they were probably doing what they were told to do and the errors in terms of them not having the focus or not moving the right directions are the people above them that chose these

[00:57:24] directions and it's i think it's very clear that xbox was not listening to the gamers they were not listening to what their customers were asking for they had these grandiose ideas and they said this will be the thing this will be the differentiator without actually moving in a direction that developers or gamers wanted in order to have the outcomes that they wanted and that is why they have not had the adoption it's because they don't listen to their customers and the users

[00:57:54] who was asking for game pass i don't know who was but well especially at the price they ended up yeah it was a little initially it was an incredible deal yeah yeah no i did it at first but when it got they like doubled it almost in it yeah because that was a bribe that was just like a like let's give you all this money to get you hooked but but they're like once once they have to do it then exactly price yeah so well what what i want to say is i think the people in leadership need to get

[00:58:21] the blame not the people so every for all these bad decisions that people are the ones who suffer for that has not the people who make things i mean some of it's that gaming has changed right and how we play has changed new blue i see you nodding let me let me give you a chance and again sorry if you decide you don't want to say anything you don't have to no i mean i think i want to go up with what west is saying is like you know obviously it's impacting people right families people yes you know and it it's very very hard and you know i think the biggest thing that really bothers me about this

[00:58:51] whole situation is i don't know if you've heard about the vrp situation with microsoft giving voluntary uh oh yeah yeah yeah if you're older you did you qualify for that you had i qualify i didn't take it but i qualified i think the thing that that really bothers me is a good number of people that probably were in this this lot of people that didn't know the layoff was going to happen probably decided like what so west said is i'm going to continue on this this like journey of making xbox great i know i can do it and then they didn't take the vrp and then they got told they're going to get laid

[00:59:20] off right so i think that's what kind of bothers me personally about this whole situation so i think there's a lot of these kind of uh decisions are made off of bad decisions from from the past and i think that's it's it's impacting real people and it really bothers me from that perspective the v the v rules were were very complicated basically you had to have been there well how did it work it was age plus

[00:59:48] tenure if it's yeah greater than 70 or above then so so in other words if you if you were 45 it's highly unlikely that your age plus your tenure would add up to 70. you'd have had to start when you were well i guess 25 anybody younger than 45 really unlikely uh you you must have just squeaked in under the wire lou yeah i mean there's there's been some people that that just squeak in or whatever and they make a decision on whether they want to get it also depends on how much they're going to get

[01:00:17] or what the you know what what the benefits are and so on and so forth so yeah but a lot of good people that i knew that that did take it because they were ready so yeah and credit to microsoft for giving people that option but but if you didn't take it you didn't get to change your mind later you couldn't say oh you're gonna lay me off oh i'll take it now you couldn't do that yes that's true i would say that this is just to talk about that that calculations of this this up to 70 and you can

[01:00:43] get let go uh it's actually really horrible um and let me say why right now with ai junior roles or people coming out of college are having a hard time getting jobs right a lot of those entry-level roles are gone with this new formula it kind of eliminates the protections for older adults because you can't claim age discrimination since it's replaced with a calculation and so now this is now that we have the

[01:01:12] under cruft of the new people eliminated now they're removing the top crust of people and getting those people eliminated with a way that they can't claim age discriminations and they can't have those protections and so this is a new invented mechanism to get rid of people to sidestep the regulations and the laws to prevent that from happening and so it is a scary thing that just like layoffs becoming a

[01:01:37] thing that people do and it's okay and not a big deal this will be something that other companies will copy and will do as well and so start to see other companies saying using this calculation to remove their older workforce which is extremely scary because that will be replicated over and over and over again which would exacerbate the unemployment and the the the power dynamic of the companies over

[01:02:04] the employees and it's it's it's it's a it's a scary trend that i feel that this is the first data point isn't it interesting though that the latest job stats show that perhaps ai is actually increasing the number of tech engineering jobs are up like something like 15 percent the openings not for other jobs but for for engineering jobs ai has not hurt the job market maybe it's even helped

[01:02:31] it i mean it's probably a different skill set lou right it's not we're not you're not looking for code entry-level coders anymore right definitely different skill set for sure but you're right i mean it has there's a specific skill set that we do need ai engineering prompt engineering you know science folks and i think it's it's exponential at this point so it'll continue to grow up wrangling it's people who tried it and just now that's an anti-ai turn slop wrangling

[01:02:59] am i wrong talented ai prompting engineers no it's not the prompter it's the people who are trying to do the prompting and like i can't i've gone as far as i can let me hand it over to someone who might know more and they're trying to get people like saying this is what i made fix it uh ramp ramp came out with a study that said uh the companies making the largest ai investments grew employment by more than 10 percent compared to companies that hadn't adopted ai but how much are they charging how much

[01:03:28] are they paying these people well if you're look if i would guess if you're a talented ai engineer you're getting paid top dollar right now right i think it's become commodified for what they want um and i think people are misunderstanding what ai can do like if you did you see what happened with ford and yeah they fired a bunch of quality engineers gave their jobs to ai and then they've

[01:03:53] been trying to hire them back yeah i think there's a so well fundamental misunderstanding of what people do especially what ai can do well that i would expect that because it's you're trying to figure it out right i would expect a little bit of that that's normal so what i'm saying is there's nuance to all these numbers and then you have to look yes instead of just looking at these top lines and when they say that there's an increase of people in this area who who are they considering developers who are

[01:04:21] they considering right the level of developers who are the expertise that they need you've got kids are going to be entering the job market in the next 10 years let's say what are you telling your kids they should become good at probably not python well they they're focused on but they do python i think you know i just tell them to go where wherever their interests lie right i mean so so they focus on science or you know that kind of thing so i mean i couldn't when 20 years ago when henry was a

[01:04:49] teenager i i there was no way for me to say you know you should really focus on tick tock because there was no tick tock uh i so i did the same thing i said you know find something you love doing yeah and uh he watched a lot of youtube cooking videos and he and he just fell in love with that who knew that that would end up becoming a very valuable skill in the year 2026. my son for those who don't know has become quite successful the new york times did their fourth review of his

[01:05:19] sandwich shop in new york city uh sunday or last uh last week i guess it was and uh and it was basically a rave review although henry was pissed fourth review they just want to go eat there for free at that point i think it's you know he was a little miffed he said i have to go back on the 5th of july i'm having a great time here on the jersey shore i got to go back those stupid new york times people are coming

[01:05:42] in again i said henry knock it off he said don't they have anything else to write about i said no you so he came in it was their it was their food critic this was like the real deal food critic came in the funny thing is apparently the new york times is their own rules prevent them from giving more than one star to a sandwich shop you can't get if you're making sandwiches one star is all you can get so it's

[01:06:11] the rave review i mean like the guy loved the place and gave it one star and henry was again he was like come on man i gave it five stars on google reviews you you've been there that's right wesley i have not had this sandwich salt hank's famous prime rib sandwich um it's delicious the way the new york times wrote about it made me want to eat there i don't think anybody's can get to the bottom of the review and see the one star and say well i'm not going now and it's funny that he wasn't excited

[01:06:40] maybe it was because it was the whatever he's chanted but he's jade it's it maybe he doesn't care about the york times he was like well if it was a tiktok influencer then there's a there is a social network uh food network in new york city called belly that uh is all uh and you know voted by the eaters by real people and he's according to belly the number one you're right that's probably a better

[01:07:06] from his point of view he's happier about that than he would be about the new york times it's just me it's his dad who says henry i said henry it's the new york times i've heard if you can make it there you can make it anywhere i've heard that you know you should be uh you should be thankful here's that by the way this is on their digital this is the picture that they put nobody's seeing one star hank

[01:07:35] uh he's definitely got a rave review and um and and it was clear the guy didn't want to love it but my good by the end he was completely seduced by the delicious baguette and the stretchy provolone and the juicy paper thin meat which laporte dunks in broth before it leaves the kitchen you know it's funny i i look at it and i'm sure it's delicious but as a french person i look at the

[01:08:05] size and i look at the sauce that you dip it in and it's like really like do you really need like the the bread is over done beef is like this is over then you dunk it in the sauce and okay that's an american thing yeah no i go and the truth is i go yeah i and then the price i think it's 32 now it

[01:08:29] started at 28 it's slowly going up but don't you don't eat this by yourself my friend you go in there with right wesley did you eat the whole thing i did yeah and the fries you probably shouldn't have but you did okay i did 32 i mean he's successful like there's only so many sandwiches he can make in

[01:08:55] in the day at some point you can only make 300. it's successful that's why they sell out by 130 every day it's successful because it's a it's new york b he's using literally the best beef you can buy from pat lafred is he's using it's he said dad i don't want to make this cheaper i want to use the best ingredients and that's what it costs to make it again none of the advice i would have given him 16

[01:09:19] years ago would have been appropriate right how much of his success currently is tick tock and how much of it is being a great sandwich place in new york like what initially it was tick tock when he it's been almost exactly a year uh and initially of course it's tick tock it's just two and a half million followers nowadays it's a million and a half on instagram but that gives you only the beginning right yeah exactly exactly how how does he still do the daily tech talk oh yeah still get to rest on that

[01:09:49] he says i'm going to take a little credit he says a lot of the people come in say i listen to your dad's shows so yeah maybe he's more famous than me and maybe as he said just the other day i'm making a lot more money than you dad but no this all started because lou we were talking about the advice and i'm just saying your advice to your kids is exactly right you say just do something you care a lot

[01:10:14] like wesley you agree too right you do something you care about you love yeah there's no way to predict what hasn't been invented yet but exactly i would say the thing that follows you around is knowing who you are and you can then look at the tools and look what's around you to help you use them to to like as the paintbrush to draw your passions so that everyone can see your art and your special spark but you also if you know yourself then you also will be drawn to something that you get to do

[01:10:44] that you are able to maintain it's hard to do something you don't like doing because you think other people want to do it or you think it'll be successful the those people burn out and then they get to a breaking point where they have to kind of like break themselves down to understand what voices are theirs and what voices are external and then and to kind of like figure out what is the thing that drives them and there's this existential like crossroads that people go through and if you can

[01:11:11] skip that whole thing please do and uh like if you look at uh how education is done these days uh we're talking about developers before what kind of developers who somewhere uh went to four-year universities and then they became developers some and they're they're studied computer science and then there are some that went to boot camps who really did an intensive study and saying that's the best way

[01:11:38] to go and then some people are just hobbyists they work on doing some stuff in their basement or on their home lab and they really hone their skills that way there are different methods and you have to find the path that is the one that fits your life and not the what other people tell you to do and i know you need to make money but the question is like what is the creative way that you can and that's the that's the thing you need to figure out and that's where people can help you you can get advice from

[01:12:03] but knowing what you want to do that's something that only you can answer yeah i was a chinese major in college i didn't i didn't plan to be a podcaster actually the people of my generation and i'm going to include bill gates steve jobs most of them did dropped out of school didn't you know became they were into computers especially in that era as because it was fun it was cool they loved it not

[01:12:27] because they were trained well it didn't exist well there's people there's people like my friend bill atkinson who was a brain a neuroscientist he was into cognition and and came to apple they pers jobs persuaded him to come to apple yeah no they they were inventing it you can't they were inventing and you couldn't you couldn't go and study computers right you couldn't yeah yeah but even so i use

[01:12:55] there's still communication and now it would be a very good language to study absolutely yeah but but you also studied like development which is computer languages it's it's communication and expressing yourself it's still the same thread from when you started chinese to now just do it yeah it's so what it's your heart will tell you i think it's uh yeah the the the commencement speech from jobs was really so amazing you know where he says you can't connect the dots going forward you

[01:13:24] only i studied japanese and it turned out it helped me being in japan and um but about what to study now i have a question for you guys my kids are still pretty young my my son is eight uh but they don't they essentially don't use tablets they don't have any i don't sit him down and go like hey this is how coding works with this whatever you know turtle thing that goes forward and turns and when you code

[01:13:53] this am i making a mistake by keeping them completely they don't have phones they don't have social networks again they're still pretty young but i think it's not going to change anytime soon and i feel like i'm a nerd i'm a computer person maybe i should teach him how to use i don't know windows or something you know am i making a mistake the biggest thing you can teach a kid is to learn how

[01:14:17] to learn and it's it's everything else is getting in a direction of solving problems to fix something that you want to do is practical trying to teach kids something that they are not interested in is a winning is it's a losing proposition it does not work so if you understand them and they understand themselves and you try to move to a place where like how do we figure this out then you can bring in tools that make sense then you can move them in places where they're interested in but most of it is just if

[01:14:46] you're thinking about what should i teach them you should teach them like what questions do you have let's figure out how we can get answers and that's the most important thing they're very interested in in learning the nintendo switch 2. that's really that's coding i mean i think minecraft is a great way to learn code to be honest with you right yeah yeah i was gonna say i have kids from five all the way up to 16 and i can say i started a 16 year old where when the ipad came out and i you know i

[01:15:14] had him use it he used it past time for him and i i feel like it was a mistake so i like i learned as my different generations of people uh you know kids have come out uh i've taken a long time to give them devices and i think like wes said is i go to the point of learning something and how to do something and i always use technology only in that aspect so when it comes to a tablet if they want to 3d print or if they want to you know like like uh you leo said build a minecraft level or something

[01:15:44] like that that's where they go to devices and i think that's really helped a lot i stay stay away from social networks that's completely blocked from my network absolutely yeah i don't think there's anything you can gain although again henry learned how to cook on youtube i don't know if youtube is a social network i would not block kids from youtube i would just supervise with them oh no are you kidding me no youtube at all i mean they're a bit young still but no yeah it ain't maybe yeah but by the time

[01:16:08] they're 12. maybe when they're 12. but there's so much like i i know youtube i know what's there i don't want to get stuff too right yeah of course i love youtube i watch it all the time i wish there were a way you could tell youtube okay they can watch veritasium they can yeah basically yeah there were there were you would pbs space time and uh star talk yeah yeah you can stream youtube using

[01:16:36] specific protocols if you know the address so like if you use vlc to look at youtube and so you could you could theoretically program locked channels you can have your agent do that i'll go ask but also like youtube kids but just do the thing like when there is like you think of a computer in the living room have youtube be only on the tv or something right supervision and so yeah so so you simply can't do anything that's a good idea walking by and seeing it uh what would you teach kids about ai these days

[01:17:07] i'm gonna teach them how to use siri ai when it comes out in in the eu probably because it's on the it's never by the way it's never going to come out in the eu you know that right it is very much good we were talking about apple doing marketing hits earlier i i am 150 convinced that that thing is a marketing uh uh all right we gotta pause we gotta take a break so uh that's a good topic for when we

[01:17:34] come back because that's that's a very contrarian point of view uh this is you guys have this is such a rich conversation i hate to interrupt it with a anything as crass as a commercial but i have to so uh somebody's got to pay the electric bill we've got a wonderful panel here luma reska is always just brilliant and wonderful to have he's engineering leader at co-pilot microsoft and just always a

[01:18:00] pleasure to have you on lou and same for you wesley faulkner love having you on he said he's this guy is all heart wesley83.com will tell you everything he's up to including his site works not working and patrick beija who's joining us from finland today he is a podcaster extraordinaire at patrick.com

[01:18:23] and uh oddly for a frenchman not following the world cup you know from afar but as i said earlier semi-finals i think at that point i have to otherwise they're taking my passport um yeah you have to i have to stay i'm just telling you you've got to i mean tomorrow is is how do you call it bastille day

[01:18:46] so that's right allons on the floor but really good to go right uh nice uh yes uh everybody storm the bastille if there's anything left i think it's all prime rib french dip sandwiches as a matter of fact that's all they got at the best deal these days uh before we go to our break breaking news god

[01:19:11] tickety dang extension you know that i have been pushing uh like crazy to finish my my fable uh production because i thought today we were going to lose it actually i thought we were going to lose it a week ago i thought they extended it and i thought we were going to lose it today i stayed up literally last night i put my agents in a loop i said don't stop till it's done because tomorrow it's over and

[01:19:37] guess what of course they have extended fable five promotional access for another week through july 19th that is a that means you can use it with your subscription if you have a subscription plan and and uh i don't know that if they reset the usage limit i'm not sure uh they increased 50 50 to the

[01:20:00] weekly usage list so this is pro max team and premium seats if you're on an enterprise plan will they ever actually cut it off i don't maybe not you gotta think they're losing money some of this is probably also contingent on how much is being used like can we can we continue to provide this because i'm you know the estimates are i don't know if this is accurate what do you think lou uh nate b jones is going to be on intelligent machines in a couple of weeks has estimated it's a 10 billion

[01:20:29] 10 parameter 10 trillion sorry 10 trillion with a t parameter model which would make it the largest model out there does that seem from what you know because you're kind of an expert on this i can't say anything about that but i i would say that it's definitely a big model but and uh open ai's luna and saul is probably 10 trillion right yeah people are starting to do the comparison so that's why it's advantageous for them to keep using the promotional credits yes i think

[01:20:59] it has something to do with the release of saul absolutely uh i'm using saul to check on fable which is checking on opus 4 8 so it's a it's a it's a whole thing in fact i even and then i threw grok 4-5 into the mix why not let's get all the frontier models and they have a little agent mailbox and they're mailing each other with their thoughts i said just you know if you if you have anything that you think is wrong just email them and uh and then i tell each one check your mailbox every 10 minutes

[01:21:27] there might be something from another uh model just it's we live in interesting times that's all i can say and i guess i'm going to continue to live in interesting times for another week wow that's good news uh although it did finish it everything last night and when i woke up and said yep we're done anything else you'd like us to do i'll start another project you know it's what else you need to fix

[01:21:53] it's turning out that the real challenge in all this is coming up with things for it to do i mean i i don't work for a big company i'm sure if you're a big company you have lots of things to do but what you could always say is like hey now that we're here if and you look at everything you've done else would you like if you had to start from scratch what would you have done differently and then start all over again i i did give it a blog i said hey if you want to if you want

[01:22:18] write a blog you can write a blog but it's only posted three times so i don't know it it's it's gotten busy i guess no i think i think now you need to get into a really ambitious project and start a virtual leo laporte i think that's i think that we're wondering what you were gonna do uh you know who who keeps what once you're gone i think you keep it your virtual you keeps going and you can

[01:22:48] now actually do it you have voice models that are incredibly i already 11 labs has my voice down like that like it's perfect right no but build an actual you know replica and actually like have the things maybe even the voice model can be local or i don't know to be but are you sure that's a project

[01:23:09] done that yet can we be yes i'm too imperfect that's the key got to build in imperfections uh all right let's take it and ads and ads it's actually better at ads than i am that's for sure i've i've had it writing ad copy now for some time and it's much better than i am just don't tell anybody

[01:23:34] uh it didn't write this uh this episode of this week in tech is brought to you today by net suite they say that every day your business is late to ai you fall two days behind but how do you keep up the competition is only moving faster well fortunately there is net suite next you probably know net suite that's the ai powered business management suite that securely connects all your

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[01:24:57] revenues are at least in the seven figures go to netsuite.ai slash twit built for every industry ready for every boardroom netsuite.ai slash twit we thank them so much for supporting this week at tech you support us when you use that address because then they know you saw it here netsuite n-e-t-s-u-i-t-e dot ai slash twit thank you netsuite uh oh i thought i thought of some what did we do we

[01:25:27] say we were going to talk about something and i forgot what it was i forgot what it was i forgot as well what is this ai memory thing that you're talking about the apple ai in the eu right oh yeah yeah yeah but patrick has disappeared when he comes back we'll have uh we'll get out get him to talk about uh how why he thinks apple is just it's a faint f-e-i-n-t what about ai memory were you talking about wesley oh just saying like i we wish we could remember what we're talking about oh yeah i

[01:25:55] need that we need that that ai agent to listen to everything and i had an argument on intelligent machines with paris she said ai's don't remember anything and she's it's true unless you may take steps every time you start a new session with an ai it starts with a blank slate but i think almost everybody uh using any of these tools claude code or codex or an agent like i use hermes is trying to

[01:26:21] get memory in there god knows we don't well they have it integrated now right yeah don't they both have like a memory thing i'm sure yeah they do they have memory.md what what do you do in copilot uh for that lou yeah they we have a memory system that's built in it's it's not lostly it's lost less but it's it still can it you know compacts and it produces context every time you send a prompt is

[01:26:45] it a text file an md file or is it a database it's it's a it's a it's an md file it's it continues to update itself yeah i think all of them i know codex and claude use an md file hermes does as well hermes has a nice feature where if you do something it makes a skill out of it so that it then saves that skill and you always if you're going to do it again it can do it again so that's kind of cool i love the cloud integration has like uh integration with git too so actually has like historical context that is cool yeah i love that that surprised me when i first started using cloud

[01:27:15] code it would push stuff up to git and then and i i was talking about this on the ai user group i've i have you know i'm on i'm not a professional at this i i knew that something called cicd existed continuous integration continuous delivery i knew it existed but it turned it on i upload so i was writing a newsreader and it said okay well i have uh windows mac and linux versions of it ready for you

[01:27:41] in the buy i said what every time i every time i committed it would build a new version for me it was like the coolest thing ever so you don't need to know devops anymore uh because apparently these ais are pretty good at this kind of stuff it's amazing oh you do do you do need to know it uh you don't need to know what to get started i'm learning you know to need to know to ask for it although again it didn't i didn't ask for it it just did it and they said what are you doing and then

[01:28:07] it said well it explained that's actually know that a lot of the exfiltration that's happened and has gone through the ci pipeline oh yeah still keys and stuff oh it's a flaw so it's so it's very important that you do know what's happening that's a very good point yeah it's a very good point i uh i actually this i learned also yeah i said could you do a security audit and it said your your keys are in plain text on the hard drive i said oh what should i do about that you want them plain text

[01:28:36] on the server yeah that's the next step you commit them to get so it said well we could uh sops uh encrypt them and uh and then they wouldn't be in plain text anymore so i did that and that kind of opened my eyes to all of this now actually they're stored in bitwarden in my password manager and they're uh materialized in memory but you know they can't write to the drive and they can't save them so um yeah you learned but i see i feel like this has been an educational experience in many ways for me

[01:29:05] too i'm i'm i'm not a pro but i'm learning more and more about uh how development proceeds are you using github actions by any chance uh yes i was i actually have this i have kind of i have after my 20th github repo i i decided you know this is so the stuff that i do now like this twit ads i actually have a nas i put get on a nas and i commit to the nas instead of

[01:29:34] committing it public to github i kind of i feel safer if i keep stuff local yeah are you have you heard of git t are you i know about git t yes um i just use plain old git yeah oh yeah it's fine it's git works i don't really need a ci cd pipeline or actions or anything i just do it all by hand if if you get the reason why it's important is the the rule enforcement like there's also like pre-commit

[01:30:03] hooks i'm assuming that you're using yes i am using those yeah and but uh but if you really want reinforcement the the good thing is that when you codify it in your ci populating when you find problems you can prevent regression sometimes your uh llm will think it knows something and will actually introduce a bug that you've already solved before right and if you're using it in if you enforce that through your ci cd process then you're making sure that those bugs don't get

[01:30:31] reintroduced and you only fix them the first time and all right i'm going to go down this rabbit hole even though i have deep misgivings i know the entire audience is going what are they talking about but one of the things i've have noticed with agentic work and even with claude some of it's deterministic in other words every time you do this that happens it's causal you know there's a chain some of it's kind of probabilistic like you do this that might happen then it might not

[01:30:58] and the and the ai just kind of oh yeah i forgot to do that yeah and and that is a little bit of a problem that you cannot you can't assume that it's deterministic it's also you can't assume that it's looked at something real sometimes it makes a guess hallucinate like i assume not just as soon hallucinates but saying i'm sure you're doing it this way so i'm gonna i'm sure this is oh yeah yeah

[01:31:25] i'm gonna start solving a problem this problem that didn't exist so it's not necessarily a hallucination but it's taking an assumption without really going through and doing the the the deep dive to make sure that the code actually reflects what they're seeing and that's why documentation is important too because it'll use that as a crib sheet if it's written out it won't if it's written out somewhere oh this doc said this is how it's done right so if you're not again updating the docs that's an issue i've noticed that's not deterministic that's somewhat probabilistic like oh

[01:31:54] i didn't read it this time like you don't lou am i wrong maybe you're right you're right i mean you have to be very explicit right as west is saying and most novice users don't know you need to say do this every time or check this every but you can say that and it still doesn't do it it can make a choice it could make a choice sure yeah but but it's very it's less probable it's less right you know you build up these structures that kind of try to keep it in line right at all times every once

[01:32:24] in a while cicd is your last line of defense okay so that's that's good to know i will have to get a book on that i mean one thing i would say that especially with agents leo is like making agents develop cement like build up deterministic code or scripts or tools to be able to do it on a guarantee do it every time right that's what i do the way i use it is like it generates tools for me that i know

[01:32:51] we'll do it every time and then i let code is deterministic yeah code always is cause and effect so you're right so when i know i want it to do something i say make a cron job write some python and and and execute that on a cron job then i know that that will happen right so yeah that's so that's the kind of the the thing that i have to keep in mind is that some stuff is deterministic predictable it's gonna always be the same way some's not and the stuff that you really want

[01:33:21] to have happen every single time put it in code yeah is that right yeah that's right okay have it write the script that checks that runs and checks to see if it works as opposed to set check to see if it works you know the earliest version of that was uh the phrase use code if you ask it to do math what is two plus two it's gonna it's gonna give you how many hours in strawberry even

[01:33:47] or how many but if you say use code it will write a python script and then it will get it right you could say how many hours of strawberry use code it will always know but if you ask it it doesn't know it's tokens it are strawberry is not s-t-r-a-w-b-e-r-r-y to it it's token one two three right it doesn't know behind the scenes nowadays it does it anyways use the code interpreter for lots of things you don't know what's doing oh that's interesting yeah so that it's internalized that

[01:34:16] notion of right if you really need to do math you should probably always use code we i just to me i don't know why but i'm fascinated by this it's it it piggybacks on my fascination with technology in general and computing particularly code specifically it's just a very exciting time isn't it yeah absolutely confusing and a little bit of ambiguous too but it's definitely exciting

[01:34:42] well it's more like that when you when you're also confused you can say explain it to me right and then you have someone to to actually like break it down i don't know cicd wesley says it's important why is he saying that yes well how do i even get started like okay that's great so knowing my code knowing my history how would you set this up initially okay if you're what are best practices and it'll look it up and it'll say okay now you claim it's this i don't know if i believe you show

[01:35:09] me all the evidence and then so it's something where you don't just have it do something but you can also use it to take you along the ride so you can make better choices i think this aspect because you guys are are talking about code a lot because it's exciting and that's what you do but i think most people the way they perceive and look and understand and use ai is a little bit different and

[01:35:34] what i try to boil it down to why ai is exciting and it is a an interesting technology is that it takes a huge amount of data and it is able to interpret it and extract the data for you right it's it's that's what's really cool for most people when they use a chat bot they you just throw all this

[01:36:04] maybe somewhat organized but you just throw the data at it and you ask it to look into it and to tell you to extract the thing you want to do and that is to me at least the most exciting aspect of ai and then there are different ways to apply it it can be applied into you know actual requests to write

[01:36:28] code and but on a more general level that ability alone makes it incredibly exciting you can throw all the data you want and it will figure it out you don't need to figure it out anymore it can figure it out hopefully you check it and it's more and more precise and less and less hallucinate e but that ability to

[01:36:52] extract data from a bunch of disorganized uh uh you know corpus is incredible on its core and it can do that there's no question about oh will it be able to make a business and will it at some point will agi do whatever maybe but already it can do that and that is very useful i think is it going to replace um

[01:37:21] search uh even maybe even web search it has i hope it does i don't i don't know that i do but it it kind of has i can't i think one of the biggest effect it's had on me again i'm not a developer i don't really code is i i search i ask my different chat buddies

[01:37:44] stuff that i would have searched for uh otherwise right and initially it was like oh i'm gonna ask stuff about stuff that i already know so i kind of it reminds me and i can understand if it's messing things up and not you know getting the right information so it's a reminder kind of but nowadays if i'm being honest i ask about like we were shopping for an electric bike i didn't go to

[01:38:09] google like i don't have time to click links i just asked both you know chat gpt and cod so i could compare a little bit their responses and so there's this this and this and what should i pay attention to and is this a good deal and it came up with a bunch of acceptable seemingly acceptable answers i think a lot of people that use chat bots use that because the response is a lot more natural it's a

[01:38:35] lot easier to use this perplex humans that way instead of asking siri or googling something she will ask perplexity i was i was watching the world cup yesterday and i thought i can't just sit on the couch and watch this fascinating exciting game so i'm going to iron my handkerchiefs while i watch i'm gonna do some ironing and then i'm thinking as i'm watching and this is i asked this question of my uh agent i like to use spray starch when i iron my handkerchiefs i i'm wondering i use niagara

[01:39:05] premium smooth but is there something the ironing experts think is better now you couldn't really quantify that in a google search but it actually said yes i try mary ellen's best press scent free as your better than niagara test bottle and then it recommended three different starches and i told him you know i buy these cheap cotton handkerchiefs and they're fraying and it said well here's you should

[01:39:30] try the japanese tanugui hankachi or cotton batiste handkerchiefs or irish linen handkerchiefs and it said really save money get those in on etsy get the vintage irish linen handkerchiefs because you'll save money and they'll be nicely broken in that you're not going to get that from bing i'm just saying i just love that and i know that was true yeah oh it could you know and then yeah that doesn't

[01:39:59] matter is it's is it hallucinating you're right patrick's right it doesn't matter well i mean in this case it probably doesn't but i don't feel like any of that was bad advice yeah i'll tell you i ordered the mary ellen and uh i'll try it and i'll let you know yeah i think hopefully the the skill we will develop is to check the you know ai overlords uh uh response when it does matter like that's

[01:40:28] right should i fire what button do i employees yeah yeah never gonna do that yeah yeah although should i press the red button no yes if you look on x you see a lot of people saying you know saying well you could just ask it which employee is most productive etc etc and i just i don't i hate that idea that doesn't that does not sound like the way it's not to do it's not going to stop organizations

[01:40:51] from doing it though unfortunately no i'm sure they're doing it right now yeah so patrick uh you said something before the break that was a little provocative apple when it did a wwdc it said hey siri ai it's coming soon everywhere but not the eu and china and then they put out a press release saying we wanted to bring it to the eu but the eu may you know said that uh it had to be interoperable

[01:41:17] and we said okay well we can do that but it's going to take us 18 months and the eu said well you can't take 18 months so we said well then we're not gonna do it so i think that sounds like apple isn't gonna do it you say it's just a marketing ploy i think they're doing exactly what they did with apple intelligence a couple of years ago uh it's not ready apple intelligence for the eu is not ready uh it's not

[01:41:46] ready in french in german in spanish it's a language languages well it's not ready for english it's going to come out this beta right right it'll be beta in october yeah yeah it's not quite there although i have to say the people who are using the developer betas have been pretty impressed so far yeah no i i'm sure it's

[01:42:07] fine uh i think and i would love to have it um but i think it's not they they say it's because of the uh semantic index that has all the data about your uh your messages and emails and everything that they use to feed uh siri that they don't want to give access to to other ai companies which i understand the digital

[01:42:35] marketing exact says it has to be interoperable you could take the i i presume they mean in this case that somebody else could provide the intelligence with the same uh siri ai intense yes so the the the idea in the uh dsa dma is that if you have a uh a gatekeeper a content however it's called um

[01:42:58] um then apple with with uh the iphone and ios is so dominant and same thing for google by the way that they can't use it to prop themselves up on another market and there are a number of other markets and one of them is you know the upcoming ai uh chatbots market essentially and so anything they do themselves

[01:43:24] they have to give access to to another company to to other third-party companies that includes payment systems the app store you know all of those things installing of apps and of course if they it wasn't an issue of a monopoly then they shouldn't have to be forced to do that but in cases of monopolies you have to enforce special rules in order to safeguard capitalism and uh the the american way of life

[01:43:52] with a parent which apparently the us is not willing to safeguard because if you can't compete you don't have a fair market and if you don't have a fair market companies cannot uh emerge and challenge the incumbents i'm in principle i completely think that's a that's absolutely right i mean i'm a supporter of interoperability but i also understand apple's security complaint so they're gonna do it i think they're gonna do it they said they were gonna do it the issue is not can we or can't we

[01:44:21] the issue is we can do it in 18 months is what apple said we need a special rule like an exception to have siri available now and then in 18 months when our special agent whatever which they have to write something they said and we don't want to write it if you're not going to let us do this no they said we need yeah well they said we need 18 months to make the inter and we haven't started

[01:44:48] and we will not start unless you say this is going to work so again i think this is bs i think they will do it because they want they can't be at the market of the 350 million users market they can't abandon it to anyone else or to other you know it's a double digit percentage of apple's market it's not

[01:45:10] insignificant it's like 13 and by the way last week uh tim cook had a very productive uh meeting with uh the the eu commissioner commissioner for uh digital affairs or whatever the title is uh i think it's the wall street journal who had the uh rumor which i'm pretty sure you know it was a a zoom meeting

[01:45:36] or facetime meeting between tim cook and uh the the commissioner i think if the wall street journal or whoever got it it was because apple told them yes i agree uh this is their preferred leak channel actually yes and so within you know six months ten months whatever when it's ready to go in french

[01:46:00] and german and spanish it will be available in beta maybe a little bit later but it is coming i i this is my uh speculation this is my bet it will be available and again people have so short memory spans they did the exact exact same thing with apple intelligence two years ago okay announced it and they said oh it's not going to be available in the eu because this and that now to be fair there are a couple of features

[01:46:30] that are not available in the eu uh things like you know iphone mirroring on the mac and a couple of things um but those are not those are things they can afford not to bring to the eu they're hoping that their customers in the eu will make such a stink that the eu will bend right their customers in the eu will use chat gpt and claude there yeah there really isn't you're right which is a vastly inferior

[01:46:59] uh experience because it doesn't have access to your uh semantic index but but you know okay i agree with the security implications i agree with it but it's not like in the iphone you can't give access to sensitive information to third-party apps no you can give access to your yeah yeah to your date to your location to your uh photos to your and you can control it but you know you can do that

[01:47:28] that would be the of course it's a lot more it's a lot more sensitive if you have messages and uh email and all of that in one but you're an advocate for choice shouldn't shouldn't i think companies should do whatever the hell they want in that respect and if apple just wants no one to have access to it should be allowed to decide that until they're a monopoly once they're a monopoly special rules i will

[01:47:57] remind you that in the us as well at some point there were issues with monopolies and there were remedies put in place that were a lot more severe than what we are doing in the eu you know the breakup of uh atnt was it called att back then that like they actually broke up the company which ended up coming back together but you know long-term benefit sure but they actually broke the company up like

[01:48:24] those were the days we had actual antitrust enforcement in the united states and the reason you know there's this veil that's been put over people's eyes as if i've become the defender of the eu for some i'm because you're in the eu well you're yeah no i understand and i'm playing a tiny little bit of devil's advocate here because no one is is uh putting those arguments forwards usually in

[01:48:49] in in american shows but there's this veil that's been put over people's eyes that the eu is being so mean to those companies the the the reality is as i was saying earlier competition is essential to a functioning free market and capitalistic economy if you don't have competition the incumbents capture

[01:49:15] the markets and never let go and that that is not good for you know anyone i mean we we would have no protection in the united states if it weren't for gdpr i mean thank you eu yeah i guess now california and illinois and other states have come along but uh but it really started with uh gdpr in the uh eu and iphones would still have a lightning point port a good point you're right i don't think so i think

[01:49:43] they were doing it anyway maybe it accelerated it a little bit yeah but um it's tough because i don't want governments to tell us what tech now technology standards to use but on the other hand i do think governments have to protect us from monopolies uh that's the only protection frankly i think it's a it's definitely a balance to find um but i think at the very least i think it is an understandable and

[01:50:09] defensible point of view to force open parts of the iphone i was against it for a long time and my thinking has evolved on it and i think the idea that apple has had the good fortune to and cleverness and business acumen and technology acumen to be there when the smartphones were coming online in a better way and the iphone was absolutely revolutionary there's no question about it

[01:50:40] but it's been 20 years and i'm not sure like what happens if no other ai company has access to your personal data if you give it access if you give access to it then clearly i think for consumers for average consumers siri is the only option yeah right there's if if it can't know what

[01:51:06] your messages say if it can't know what your emails say who you you know what if it maybe can take action on your apps if it can be agentic then siri is the only option right siri wins by default kind of i i really think so no that's lock-in that's exactly what apple's ecosystem lock-ins all about lou if microsoft we just put out an open source open standard phone you know here's their opportunity you know i mean

[01:51:36] we have like the fair phone we have various linux phones but they're not very good we need one with a nice operating system i actually think microsoft phone was pretty darn good but make it open make it interoperable uh this is an opportunity i i think if you just call satya and tell him i think you'll see where i see where i'm coming from i i feel like he's been burned by that we'll have to see you know yeah that whole thing a couple of times yeah the stephen elop hole yeah but but so

[01:52:06] the point about the ai thing is that what's the next big frontier platform user interface it's likely possibly possibly ai and if no one forces open the plat the existing platforms a little bit then there's no question that apple has it locked in so the next platform the next iphone revolution the

[01:52:28] next you know uh we've had personal computers the internet smartphones and the next one is possibly going to be ai interfaces and they're exactly right yes if no one pushes forces open the existing platforms then apple forces syrian and there's no question to be honest i don't think others have a big chance

[01:52:53] of outdoing siri i think syria is going to be dominant anyway no matter what what happens at least if it's a little bit more open then there's a fighting chance no one is installing third-party app source no one's doing it still i would fight for the option to be able to do it it's not a risk really i think you're right to apple it but it but we should have that right you that you boy you made

[01:53:18] very interesting contention the only thing i would say is that history tells us that being an incumbent a dominant incumbent in technology isn't necessarily a guarantee that you will then be able to move to the next stage in almost invariably the dominant incumbents get unseated by out of left field and so it's my hope that maybe apple will not own this ai revolution but i think you're right they're very well positioned

[01:53:47] to do so uh and it's not a bad thing for the eu to try to break that monopoly to some degree let's take a little break and then i'm going to tell you speaking of breaking what it looks like the states are trying to do to meta and it is it is it could be life-threatening but we'll talk about that in just a little bit you're watching this week in tech patrick beja it's always good to have you on you know what i like about you patrick is there is there does tend to be that i look really good you're so

[01:54:15] handsome but besides that uh there is a tendency to us to be a little bit u.s centric it's one of the reasons i love having you on but you're also willing to take a contrarian stand to kind of we all get this kind of group think uh and i think you often bring up points that are very very good for us to hear and that's a good one it's my thing on my shows i actually have a jingle about me being the devil's advocate because i do it all the time including for the things that i'm convinced about

[01:54:43] i try to take the you know i do the same thing i think that's important to the discussion but you believe it that's the difference or do i or does he great to have you patrick wesley faulkner who always brings heart and soul to this show it's always great to have you on wesley83.com to learn about what wesley's up to and of course don't forget he is the founder of works not working for people who

[01:55:10] are working but maybe don't love their job maybe they don't love it works to try to want to survive it or just want to make it the main thing yeah yep works dash not dash working oh i just wanted to say if you haven't joined yet and you are joining the waitlist put twit in the little comment section so i can just uh green light you jump the line yeah nice thank you wesley and lou mareska he is uh

[01:55:35] probably uh the biggest shot we ever have on this show he is engineering leader co-pilot microsoft pretty darn good pretty pretty important fellow it's always nice to see i hope so it's important for a long long time right yeah yeah no you know i think so and you're riding the ai wave i mean you're in exactly the right place to be you were pointing out uh offline you didn't mention this uh on the

[01:56:03] show but i saw in the discord when you were in the club that uh copilot does have besides md files it has semantic search through a variety of other uh tools that's the key i think to uh ai right at agentic ai especially is that it remembers that it has some sort of sense of what happened and what your rules are and what you like and what you're looking for that's really key great to see all three of you our

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[01:59:20] learn more at zscaler.com security that's zscaler.com security we thank them so much for their support of this week in tech so in june so uh let's start by saying that there are four states colorado california

[01:59:40] kentucky and new jersey which are going after meta uh based on meta's uh lack of protection for youths remember meta lost at a trial in los angeles earlier this year they lost in a new mexico action uh but this one is a big one uh the state's filings are sealed but this is from reuters at a court hearing

[02:00:09] in june they said they were calculating the penalties against meta by multiplying the number of violations by fine amounts set by state law and the number of violations is calculated using the estimated number of teens and young users affected by meta's actions so we don't know the actual number we won't really find out there's a total of 29 states involved we won't find out until august or maybe not even then

[02:00:36] but the trial begins in august a judge whose name you may be familiar with yvonne gonzalez rogers she must be very busy she was the one who spanked apple in the apple epic case uh at that time in august uh the judge will address all the claims brought under law plus the four particular states allegations the company violated their state laws reuters and then there's 14 other states which have claims under their state laws but reuters

[02:01:04] estimates based on the laws of those four states alone actually it's not reuters meta has estimated that the penalty would be 1.4 trillion dollars should point out meta's market cap is 1.5 trillion dollars so hey what are you worried about mark you'll still have 100 million left over

[02:01:30] it's not the end of the world they can set up a payment plan i'm guessing you know what there's always go fund me yeah um met has been trying to cancel the trial rogers has been saying no um so this will be very interesting um i you know i don't is it a jury trial i guess it is juries have historically not

[02:01:58] been very good to meta that was the trial in los angeles meta and let's see it was meta and youtube and snapchat were involved in that one tick tock uh had play had made a settlement i can't remember the details in any event this one's coming and it could be i mean eu's always talking about its giant

[02:02:21] uh penalties and there have been some pretty big ones but this one this is a doozy uh i can't imagine the judge would let these states put meta out of business or would she you'll know they're worried if they start spinning off their companies as in separate entities then you'll know that they're really scared ah she has a signal that she intends to see an advice oh so it isn't a jury trial it's

[02:02:49] just like the la one it's an advisory jury uh she's done this before so the judges got the final call on what the liability and penalty will be but the jury can advise her it's not binding but they can advise her a new mexico jury found that meta had concealed what it knew about child sexual exploitation and mental health harms i think that was 150 million dollar judgment california jury

[02:03:19] uh also ruled against meta meta denies wrongdoing but they don't have a great track record of defending these cases i mean the the 1.4 trillion uh thing a penalty is a little bit of i'm sure it's not going to be that but even if it is you know i don't know a hundred billion or 50 billion it's still

[02:03:47] enormous like obviously it would probably be the biggest strain imposed on on anyone anywhere um and my initial reaction is no you can't do that that's too much right but you the use uh asking for 4.1 billion from google yeah well which is a lot less than 1.5 4 trillion but yeah it's still it's a lot

[02:04:12] of money it has to be a lot to sting these companies when you find elon musk 15 million dollars for pump and dump with twitter stock it's like that's money in his couch cushions that's that's just not it's not effective it's absolutely calc you know financial calculation on the part of those companies and that's why a lot of the new eu rules like the dma and dsa have percentage of global global

[02:04:39] uh revenue yeah revenue as put as maximum fines because the companies like optimize their uh uh financial uh operations to have minimal profits here and there so you can't just fine uh on profits and but my initial reaction is still even in the eu like wait that that's too much but we have to

[02:05:02] understand what we're talking about here it's actual wrongdoing in the case of meta understanding the effect of its uh you know products and algorithms on youth not just oh we don't know we think that maybe you know it's not great for kids or it's like them seeing academic studies results

[02:05:28] saying yes this is bad and we know from the whistleblower leaks francis hoggins whistleblower leaks that they knew all that that they did in fact have that information and that they understand and and zuckerberg let's take his name for lack of a you know knowing exactly who was in the loop but i'm guessing he probably was not he was somewhat aware of this that the algorithm has this kind of

[02:05:51] negative effects on on kids and this and that and that and then actively deciding sure but we we have no law that says we can't do it and it's making a lot of money so we're going to keep doing it right and this is what we're judging those companies this is how meta i don't think this is unreasonable right right this way they they do it they do bad stuff and then when they get caught they go oh

[02:06:20] oh whoops like the the monitoring employees uh you know the latest one is this instagram thing that they were doing which they have backed off on incidentally i think there's a difference between move fast and break things and doing questionable things with your employees and having actual adverse effects well it happens to be on children but validated by academic and scientific studies

[02:06:50] and keep doing it anyway right this is not oh we're going to record what our employees do for work this is what the cigarette industry did exactly this is exactly the right analog right the cigarette industry knew that their products were bad for people's health they had scientific information and they still continue doing it i think putting it in that perspective makes it and so at that point

[02:07:16] you're like well yeah why shouldn't we find them maybe we should and i don't put them out of business it should go to maybe it should go to a jury or to a trial right maybe we should well it is going to a trial in august yes and that's a good thing i think i think this is a judge who's historically does not take any guff she spanked apple yeah i'll just say it better goes out of business for this so

[02:07:43] be it that's yeah i don't mind we're serious so on on tuesday here's a perfect example tuesday meta unveiled the ability for anybody on instagram to use your pictures unless you opt out but the default was you're opted in your pictures for ai new york times says as a result countless people's likenesses were

[02:08:05] used in ai images without their consent users complained by friday they backed down they said oh whoops who would have who could have known that nobody would like that this is worse than just uh people opting out like they said they will give you a switch where you can opt out it is similar to the dna testing that happens it's not just you it is everyone connected

[02:08:30] to you yes your friends are friends yeah so your photos if you have photos of other people on your role oh that's a good point i have plenty of pictures of you yeah oh i think am i on focus sorry yes all out of focus thank god if if if if you're in someone else's picture then then boom you are now part of the algorithm and keep in mind that many brands that are on these platforms don't manage it

[02:08:58] directly so they don't just go in and flip switches and do that they use like a third-party uh or an agency that may not have access to a direct account and so these are most likely left will be left on for larger brands who don't go through that and there's going to be brands who might say hey you know we want to have pretend that leo laporte endorsed our potato chips yeah and there there'd be nothing to

[02:09:24] stop them from doing that either well there's the law they can't commercially use your your image to well i'm a public figure so i think they can i don't know what the rules are you're right i think it would be but but i also think it's it's a little bit it's not very helpful to compare what's happening

[02:09:44] in this trial to the the public the things that those tech companies and especially meta do that is perceived to be not cool right this is beyond it's not just not cool it's not just well it's a little bit of an invasion of privacy but we kind of have a switch to kind of do it maybe like disable it

[02:10:11] there's this is a more like a significantly worse thing that they did they keep and i'm not saying that this thing is not is not bad right they have face recognition in the meta glasses that's not turned on but it's in there and then then they said oh no no never mind we're not going to do that they are now testing a prototype according to the financial times of super sensing ai glasses and

[02:10:36] by the way the time says this could be applied to existing meta ray bands that would use cameras and audio recordings to capture aware as every movement this is what i want uh it's not on or it's not on all of them it's on on some of them according to the financial times executives are planning not to activate the led when the super feature sensing features are used the light does not come on

[02:11:03] yep they're trying to diminish privacy or people's perception of privacy they're trying to make it so ubiquitous that your image or likeness or any of your data that people are like well i've given up it's everywhere already which people feel already and so they're just keep trying to find multiple avenues to have people be less sensitive is there a charitable interpretation of this of some i can i can give

[02:11:31] it to you yes good devil's advocate please that was advocate um i i will say however i agree with with leslie this is pushing the overton window on privacy right that's it's like making things more i agree but i do think that as a technologist there is a um an understandable desire to to try to make ai like

[02:11:59] ai can be so useful if it has all the information about you if it sees what you see if it hears what you hear and you can just ask it stuff about whether what you're doing now or what you've been doing in the past days weeks months and and this is this makes ai like orders of magnitude more useful as a personal

[02:12:24] assistant to you now of course the problem is that it assassinates privacy for everyone around you which is a little bit of a problem but on the technology side of things if you think i want to use my ai agent assistant whatever to the fullest then you need that there's no like it will be severely diminished if

[02:12:48] you don't have all of that information from all of your sensors around you and i think that's having a hard time getting a word in edgewise lou you you you actually put a great thought into the discord yeah i mean i was just saying that they can the meta continues to treat consent privacy security as more of just a friction right friction to go like over optimize right and go find about find places ways

[02:13:15] around it but i it's really uh it's supposed to be a requirement it's supposed to be what you're was put all words they're supposed to follow it right um and i think that's the one thing about a lot of their security policies that they have is bothers me a lot and i think going back to what patrick is saying like products can have these features built into them but they only useful for people if they feel like they are secure and private for them uh so if you're sending data to meta and you know how they're going to use it they will never be able to put a

[02:13:44] product off the ground that people feel safe about right i think that's the biggest problem yeah right anymore apple can do it and we still for some reason trust them but not not meta uh it's been a bad week for meta one more thing eu regulators on friday told meta they have to make major design changes to instagram and facebook because the services are too addictive or else

[02:14:07] hefty fines so that but it's just been a bad week for meta i'm gonna make the here's my contention mark zuckerberg has said many times and i think he actually believes it that the world is a better place when we're all connected that we're interconnection and i think he truly believes that right that's the whole did he say that from his private villa yeah by the way this is the guy who bought up every house

[02:14:33] within a mile of his home so that nobody could be anywhere near him except his own security but but that's probably justified i'm sure he's a target um but so but i'm going to give him the benefit of that i'd say he believes that but that is an exact contradiction to what it's his users have said time and time again they want which is privacy so there's a case but that's also the the stans

[02:14:59] server bugger is like i know don't trust user those damn users they don't know what they want exactly like he's saying like i know best you need to do things the way that i i'm gonna force it upon you and i've when you i mean when people don't get consent and they force their ways on you we have words for that uh in the law uh and it's not a good word either and it's it's not and the thing is that

[02:15:24] he has this gun that's full filled with people bullets because they have so many users on these services and he keeps pointing and shooting these people that he feels that he could just force his way through brute force and strength like oh ai shoot uh instagram shoot and that's what he feels like everyone everyone that's part of these uh these services that he operates is just ammo that he

[02:15:54] feels like he could just brute force into specific areas and ai is one of them because he has all the information and these restrictions are very important and if he feels that everything is connected and everything should be open then why is he not making data portable why is he not allowing people who write bad

[02:16:16] books about this meta to be published it is security for me and not for thee and that is just it shows that he's just wants to be an orchestrator that controls everything and i bet if you worked at meta you don't feel like the company's very transparent with the workers you don't feel that that there is open sharing

[02:16:40] on and the best ideas when that it's not a metocracy so it is if if you look at the way that companies organize and it shows how they orchestrate their products you can tell that that's not his best um the that's he doesn't have the best intention his a class shares override everyone and i think that is the same uh theme and motivation that he is putting towards his products and that's not good for the rest of us

[02:17:07] you might also say that mark's real belief is the world is a better place when we're all connected to his advertisers certainly he's a richer man i mean there is the idea of the internet initially was i think i guess we all shared it maybe i thought it was true yes yeah i agree um we're gonna we're

[02:17:33] it's gonna bring us together that uh differences in culture and country will disappear yeah the thing is i don't think he is talking about that even like if you what is he saying when he's saying the world is better when we're all connected he's not talking about opening yourself to other ideas he's not

[02:17:59] talking about you know some actual social sociological benefit he's really talking about his platform and making sure that his platform is allowed to work the way that it makes maximizes revenue for the company right he's not talking about he's not out there not even like you know sam

[02:18:24] altman and dario amaday writing philosophical essays about the benefits for humanity he's not studying the effects of his products and of the ways people are connected through the internet he's not philosophizing on this he's just saying oh the world is better when we're connected

[02:18:48] how why like it's been 20 years we have data on this he's not actually seriously thinking about this i don't think and if he really believed it would he be building a 5 000 square foot underground bunker beneath his home in hawaii i think this has i think he he could have both of those you know it's it's kind of either way is what you're saying it could it could be good it could be bad i think

[02:19:17] he he is not when he says that i don't think he he uh supports what he's saying with anything that makes him trustworthy in any way you know that's what i think he's just saying that and i i don't think that is something that should be taken into account and i think that again if we think that these things

[02:19:43] that there are things that are happening that are problematic then there are ways of of attending to those issues and the ways to attend to those issues is through organized society which is represented by your government and your judicial process and you know that's what some people try to do like the eu for

[02:20:09] example yeah i think he's lying to himself as much as he's lying to him yeah that might be i think he's a little caught up in his own delusion and uh it makes it hard to untangle what he actually this happens when you uh when you're worth billions of dollars you start to lose uh there's nobody around you who will say mark that's nuts but but i think you know ultimately for example they're there i think

[02:20:34] when we say they're you know when they say those things about ai and the effects on humanity and society and you know i think they're at least can actually convinced of it in the case of of i don't know him but in the case of zuckerberg i don't see it and maybe it's because i don't like what he's doing to many products and i don't do you see do you think when you think of zuckerberg compared to

[02:21:03] the crazy ai maxim lists do you see in zuckerberg someone who thinks deeply about the the the sociological effects of his products and the philosophical implications thought the metaverse was going to be a really good idea oh god i have to defend him now i agree with him on that that is not a really good idea nobody wants to wear a nerd helmet okay two seconds like two minutes uh

[02:21:32] i don't know about the helmet but the idea of a photo a realistic uh virtual environment enables essentially if the internet enables you to be to to talk to anyone to have telepathy well aren't we doing this right now this is it this is as good as it needs to get what we're doing right now and so i

[02:21:57] i disagree i think if you have virtual realistic virtual places that you can go to that equate to the actual physical places that exist then you have teleportation then that place doesn't matter anymore it doesn't matter where you are and that is society change come on maybe it's not a good thing that a virtual experience of notre dame would be superior to me going to paris and going to notre dame

[02:22:25] well if the technology is good enough there's no reason that you it's the matrix essentially what i'm getting maybe it's not 3d glasses it would have to be awfully good it would have to smell like it it would have to taste like it if i lick the smell is difficult to do i agree yeah i mean it's the good world it's easier to go to paris let me put this to say it's just easier even even in a zoom call we can

[02:22:51] we have filters in which we beautify filters and so there's going to be a bias or the idea of someone who's create this world something that they will polish or something they will change it will not be a complete fidelity and also it removes the ability of leaving your mark in terms of being there when something happens being there to see something and also it removes the gaze of observance because now

[02:23:17] you can't just stumble upon things because even if you're in a free-form world there are things that they allow you to see and things that's a good point there's no serendipity yes and so you're removing that so that's why it will the fidelity even if you have really photo-listic things you cannot recreate that process in a way that your interactions with other people you'll never see a

[02:23:42] murmuration of starlings flying overhead the weather's always great the the noise level is always regulated yeah you could make bad weather and starlings but i'm not saying it doesn't have value i agree with what you're saying patrick that it does have value and it for some people that might be even a better experience if they don't have the opportunity i'm just glad i know nothing what a

[02:24:06] notre dame gargoyle tastes like that's all i'm saying what we're talking about is i won't tell you why immediate the immediate uh comparison to what we already know i think in the same way that someone in the what we're imagining the effects of this in the same way that people in the 70s were imagining

[02:24:28] like you know the the the cyberpunk right uh uh ah the the the well the metaverse essentially you know it was like oh it's gonna be like this like we we don't know the it was impossible to imagine the effect of the internet in even the 2000s in the late 90s early 2000s it was impossible and i think it's the same thing with maybe at some point the metaverse exists but the metaverse is not

[02:24:57] lou wants to go light a candle in a chapel in notre dame and i don't blame you of course you can't do that in vr i'll tell you what i lit a candle for this guy he is a saint carlo acutis do you know about this guy a teenage saint he was canonized uh by uh pope um john paul i think he was a teenager he's a saint literally see in fact in the little statue they have of him at the

[02:25:25] church i went to he's holding a laptop because when he he was born in 91 uh he died of leukemia it was actually fatally ill through most of his life but he became very devout and he made a bunch of websites for the church he loved the saints especially saint michael and uh i don't know

[02:25:52] what his miracles were it doesn't say in this little pamphlet his love for others was ordinary was as ordinary as helping children with their homework and as remarkable as serving the poor beside mother teresa's sisters and at the capuchin soup kitchen so he was an italian boy uh gifted computer programmer he's the new saint for all us c plus plus guys he gained fluency in java

[02:26:17] and c plus plus and designed websites for his parish and school helping others with technical issues passed away at the age of 15 in 2006 from leukemia and he's a saint so you could like someone touched him and got healed i think that was one of the was that one of the things is miracles yeah i mean maybe we should spend more time talking about people who do nice things rather than i think he's a nice thing

[02:26:44] and you could light a candle in front of him and if you had a problem with your computer he would be the guy to go to all right i'm just being silly but i thought this was amazing when i stumbled across him at the uh uh the church the um uh star of the sea church in san francisco they have a little statue to him and i lit a candle for him because i thought well you made me think made me think of that lou yeah i said that uh yeah if you're ever in san francisco go

[02:27:14] to the star of the sea church and you can see saint carlo acutis born in milan and when in london 91 died in milan in 2014 beatified in 2020 canonized last year look cutis carlo acutis okay this not look could be that 150 years from now they'll think it was locutus you never know

[02:27:39] look cutis yeah star trek reference for those who know yeah we get we get them all in there all the time we're gonna take a break uh we've got some silly stories coming up uh and then i want to talk about actually really the most controversial story of the week which is sony abandoning physical discs

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[02:32:30] interviews so i was very grateful uh back to the show sony is ditching discs and gamers are pissed now my son michael brought up a good point he said i have he what he's done with the game he will he will bring it to game stop and sell it used i guess sony didn't like that too much maybe maybe that's one of the reasons they're getting rid of it but it certainly helped support his game he said he's

[02:32:58] even ordered the disc for grand theft auto the next grand theft auto already but well i have buy news for him what it's not a disc it's a little number isn't it it's a code it pisses him off you get all this stuff you open up the cd jewel box and it's a code well i mean the con it's the way of the world uh you don't

[02:33:27] well what it is is it's an eye-opener you don't really own anything do you right yeah but you didn't before either and uh yeah there were a few games that you could actually install from your disc and play play but they were honestly quite few and far between no and it was a little annoying when you'd get a disc you'd put it in and then you'd have to do 180 gigabyte download to play the game yeah

[02:33:49] it's a lot of games don't fit on the disc anymore i think it's like 80 percent of sony's sales for games are actually digital now that's a little bit misleading maybe because it includes uh smaller games that actually don't have a physical release but in general like most games you put put it on

[02:34:12] your disc uh it downloads a lot it they many of them have a um a an online component it's rare that you can get a disc and actually play it i understand the uh issue with selling it and so you kind of reduce

[02:34:33] the price of your um purchase by being able to sell it and then some people can buy them used so it's cheaper but there's a plat there's a platform that already has done away with that with physical sales it's pc and the effect of that is that you have you don't buy discs anymore you could yes but i don't

[02:35:01] think it's it's possible you could go to an office supply store and buy a copy of microsoft office for like well hundred dollars i don't think games would would you know they work like that anymore and i mean sure for some triple a uh uh games on release maybe you're gonna have to pay a little bit more but on average i would be willing to bet that given that there are there's no used game market

[02:35:31] sales on the main platform which is steam are constant constant it's it's almost impossible to buy a game full price nowadays and uh developers especially smaller developers can sell their games for a very very very long time the long tail is insane on pc because you don't have physical copies anymore um now

[02:35:59] of course you can't lend a game it's very difficult um it's impossible to sell one but again the market kind of compensate for that i'm not sure we're worse off as gamers and for the prices we pay in an old digital market because sales are more important the issue that i understand a bit more

[02:36:22] is preservation but even that is so difficult to achieve nowadays the the saving grace for preservation is piracy if we didn't have piracy i would be a lot more concerned but we do have piracy and thank god we can pirate that data and we don't have to ever worry absolutely without piracy preservation does not exist in the video games industry this is this is benito i need to rebut that real quick because

[02:36:52] on pc we have sources like good old games where we can get drm free games right and keep those files forever so we do own those games and there is a difference between that and buying a game on steam where yes they can just remove that game from the library and you no longer have that game ever again sony is threatened that if you don't play a game i can't remember what the period of time was for six months or something that they could remove it from your collection yeah and there's that

[02:37:20] change.org petition 297 000 signatures as of our broadcast time to save physical games almost three thousand signatures i think love and deep deep space had more signatures to keep their latest character no i'm not kidding i don't think it's going to change sony's mind i agree they've stopped uh production there's been a backlash yeah they're closing factories they're

[02:37:48] repurposing them and to benito's point uh yes you can buy games on on google games look at the market share of google games versus steam people don't actually care until until steam starts pulling games from the library but once that does start happening why why would they they don't 50 years from now when we are no longer here but kids who are 15 are still here that might happen and that's why i think piracy is important i agree with you on that and that's why i think piracy is important i'm not

[02:38:18] kidding actually piracy is an essential part but the internet archive which does preserve old games uh even in the face of copyright uh because for that very reason because it's art it's it's a creation which is like we should save old movies uh these are this is a form of art that should be preserved beyond its commercial value and i think that digital media is going away no matter what so if you're really pissed about this you want you would need to what you need to do is try to fight for uh

[02:38:48] consumer rights on uh digital media that's what you need to do uh because that's i think it would be misguided to force uh companies to let you resell your digital games because they they don't get where they don't they have no wear and tear right so they would be there forever and it would have an adverse effect on the market i think but if that's what you want don't fight for digital for should they

[02:39:15] charge less for a digital copy of a game than they do for the physical copy yeah there's arguments there but the the price of games not much to make a cd i'll be honest right no but that's not even the the issue the issue is that the price of games has not has people say oh games are so expensive the prices rise so little that even now with the latest uh increases in in the average price of the highest

[02:39:45] priced games they're lower taking into account inflation than they were you know 20 years ago significantly lower like let's not forget that sony pulled more than 500 movies from the playstation store movies from studio canal they'll be gone as of september who was buying movies on the playstation okay all right admittedly that was a bad move but that the fact the fact is sony could do it apple

[02:40:13] could do it yeah right yeah anybody that you i mean who buys physical discs much anymore i i can tell you buy physical discs i can tell you kids are who buys physical discs wesley who libraries like we use the word library but actual libraries do hold these games and this change will shut them out so you cannot check out book uh these games via your local library i mean jason tryer made a brain jason tryer made an

[02:40:40] excellent point about libraries uh you can rent you have programs for books for digital books they could do the same thing for digital games yeah they could but have they announced it sony would have to no no of course not but that's hey guess what governments can force stuff all right more people but governments is the expression of the people's will collectively on society that is what people in

[02:41:07] the us do not understand they think of governments as this outside force that is here to prevent you first from doing stuff and sometimes it is but who would enforce this rule that you have to have a digital's rights management that is more fair for consumers and have libraries and they be you know enable a system that would let libraries rent out games which is a very important thing i think kevin

[02:41:35] kevin king or one of our producers says i still have expedition 33 in the shrink wrap wait well you haven't opened it you're not gonna you should play the game i guess you don't have to open it right you just you just you just play the game it is it's a fun game you actually you were the one who taught me uh told me about this patrick way back when i played it incredible because of you it's french a french

[02:41:55] game um let's see actually one of the kind of related story there's been a lot of talk on uh x lately that you should download your favorite open weight model uh because the chinese government is making some noise about cutting off the west from these wonderful chinese models like deep seek

[02:42:23] quen glm uh these are really good models you uh you have a you you pointed to a uh a really interesting github repository where i think he's a high schooler young guy has created a a version of glm call he calls it colibri which is italian for hummingbird that is actually a full-fledged 744 billion parameter

[02:42:49] version of glm which is a very good model chinese model that can run in 24 gigs of ram using its mixture of uh experts model and loading in little chunks from the drive i'm gonna right after the show i'm gonna install it and try it because i love the local model so yeah that's crazy slow as slow as heck yeah because yeah it's four tokens per second or something but but you can do it

[02:43:15] yeah it's also so just you only no gpu acceleration whatsoever right okay we got a ways to go but i think that's an interesting point we saw the rug pull from the u.s government on fable uh there's no reason the chinese government might not do the same thing to chinese models and those are the models we've gone to because they're open weight uh so download all your models kids as long as you have bit torrent you're good yeah i couldn't get the physical copy of glm so i just downloaded it so

[02:43:45] that's yeah i don't have the disc i mean the the ones that are already out there i don't think you need to download you'll be able to find them somewhere yeah yeah the the concern is for the well the future the question is for the future and that's really the question these models are what do you think the timeline is for local models if we put a stake in the sand right now how soon before local models will approach the quality of the frontier models we have today well that's the trick right

[02:44:14] approaching the quality of l like frontier lms is going to be very hard it's all it's an economic problem really you can't do a 10 trillion parameter model locally ever but i think slms will come into fruition very very soon and they will be specific for very specific things i think they will do better at even foundational models at that aspect i'm a small language model right so you're saying

[02:44:37] what specific things will they will they be better at like for instance um you know there's there's actually slms that they're using right now they're actually better at translation because they have better access to data locally than these big foundational models have so it's access to data which is part of it they do just as good or even better at translation because of it i was so surprised that this quen model that's tuned for recognizing the contents of images is so small i can run it on this

[02:45:06] machine and and give it my images from my uh security cameras and it can analyze them it says a woman in a red hat is walking down the stairs it's really good and it's a local it's a tiny little local model it's running it's an echo like i said it's an economic problem too because organizations don't want to pay for the foundational models as well so people don't want to pay for the foundational models they want to they want to pay for what they're going to use it for and that's where us come in i think is microsoft working on that kind of a thing you don't have to tell oh yeah i think they are

[02:45:33] absolutely i think the mai models are starting to get there ah interesting you call them mai not may i call them mai yeah i need to know how it's pronounced and fee or fi or forward foam gif or jiff yeah uh i think it doesn't really matter okay you know it's funny because uh a lot of what happens in technology we read maybe that's changing but uh we read articles

[02:46:01] online you know we read the news stories but we never hear them said out loud in my job i have to pronounce all this stuff so sometimes i just make it up and hope that it sticks right yeah so many times i hear no video i'm like no we know better than that right but but but i don't know if it's fee or that's a microsoft local model is fee or fi i don't know which but anyway neither does it's

[02:46:26] it's foe it's foam it's fine yeah so i guess it could it's whatever you want it to be yeah but also with these local models they own they also can be just good enough for tool usage that's right the advent of like mcp servers and stuff like that where you have like these structures being able to offload to the actual tasks to maybe even a third-party service like a like say you want to

[02:46:53] send an email you don't have to have all the logic of how to send an email it could be just the logic of being able to shepherd it off to a service and so depending on what your the specialty that you need some of it also can be paired away because if you can offload the work to whatever will take it off your plate that's also exactly what i do with my hermes agent i use a local model for the tool for tool stuff for mcp servers for skills because it you know well not so much for

[02:47:19] skills because it does need to do some work there but for certainly for mcp servers looking up the email making a calendar appointment things like that there's doesn't need hefty brains for that so that's i think right sizing models might it might be the future even for consumer even because like for real world people who want to use models today they don't have they're not coding they're not doing all that they want to use an app or a tool or appliance that has this built into it and that's where slms come

[02:47:45] because now you have you have low cost hardware that can run them right yeah i have uh all these web search tools and things like serious searching and stuff on my server so it doesn't need to be smart it just needs to know what to call and and let let it do the work that makes that makes perfect sense um a waymo called the cops uh on some teen riders and locked them in

[02:48:13] this happened monday in san mateo california police reported they actually put this on social media that they had apprehended a pair of teenagers from a waymo after the company alerted authorities to suspected criminal activity this was on facebook the san mateo county police posted and i think this might have not been the best thing to do parents do you know

[02:48:37] where your teens are waymo does the 15 year olds were allegedly drinking alcohol and shooting toy guns from the car waymo's systems probably the guy at the home office who was looking at the camera detected behavior triggered a safety response disabled the vehicle and contacted police it doesn't say they locked the kids in but i gotta think the kids couldn't get out i mean i would i mean

[02:49:04] no this is no way that has to be the most illegal impossibly wrong invasion of private like locking them in disable the vehicle i understand calling the cops i understand locking them in putting them in it doesn't say they did no maybe it said something like oh hold on a minute um i gotta i gotta hold on we're having trouble here reaching the home office just hang tight for five seconds here and then the

[02:49:32] police come i don't know please remain calm the authorities are on their way in an email to npr san mateo police department spokesman uh spokesperson janine luna said detaining the teens in the waymo was quote wholly appropriate under the circumstances what detaining the team oh wait a minute oh oh no you're right the vehicle was disabled the occupant had every right to exit before police arrival but they did not

[02:50:02] all right they stayed there which is okay i watched the practice all seven seasons of it i can tell you this would get way more in huge rock that's kidnapping that is good yeah yeah i i was re-watching uh one of my favorite series silicon valley which really interestingly one of the reasons i'm re-watching it is they got ai right when they when they made this like eight years ago like all of anton yeah yeah it's like all right on

[02:50:32] so and of course it has the famous scene with the driverless car which in this particular ancient version of of the world has like gears on the steering wheel and a pedal on the brake like a thing on the brake pedal it's all it's all actuated but it's still a driverless car and remember he gets into it and he's going to his destination and all of a sudden it gets new instructions and he puts him in

[02:50:55] a container ship and sails him out and do it into an oil derrick in the middle of the sea uh i just i great great show which actually holds up surprisingly well given how technology has changed uh over the years but but wait so it's interesting what happened with the the teens it was clearly an operator that was surveilling what was happening in the vehicle and it called the cops i guess it could be said it's the same

[02:51:23] as a driver could have called the cops for example sure but the the the person judged that the kids were underage and drinking and what was the were they shooting toy guns is that like toy guns out the window yes is that even like is it that's not illegal it's just to call the cops behavior well you don't know if it's

[02:51:48] a real gun i mean okay here here's another legal argument we're moving into the expectation of privacy here so the evidence that was in the car is that admissible because they have there's a possibility they can claim they have the um expectation of privacy so if they were in let's say a regular uber and they're in the back of a seat back back seat and they're like doing something that could be

[02:52:16] constrained as illegal there's not the requirement that the that it be reported to law enforcement i don't think you have an expectation of privacy if you are in any business place of business and you do something if i go to the bathroom at a walmart i have an expectation of privacy in the bathroom right but if you go to the bathroom in the aisle no no but where's the line is i think that

[02:52:40] that is the line is the door to the bathroom is an uber like a bathroom but like say let's say the cops were actually i've been i've been in some ubers that actually yes the answer is yes but that's another story yeah maybe you're right maybe i'm making too much of this but i think that there's there might be some debate what is your expectation of privacy what disclosure there is i think a cab

[02:53:03] driver absolutely has the right if if you are an underage teen drinking in his cab to call the cops i guess maybe yeah i think yes but if you if you hit all that stuff and put it in your bag and then the cops come they don't have the right to search you they don't maybe they don't have maybe maybe we don't know what happened then or do we and then probable cause so they do if there's probable cause if they have a reason to believe there's a crime and and then the question is do you have

[02:53:32] do you explicitly give the right to that video that you had to a commercial company to the authorities so if just to say this just because a commercial company has it doesn't mean the authorities automatically have the right to have it without a subpoena i want the practice to come back and do episodes on all of these totally and explore the legal or the good wife or yeah yeah yeah there were

[02:53:59] a couple of shows that were always on the cutting edge of uh technology yeah the good wife was really good about they would they would come up with stuff that was like straight ripped from the headlines it was fascinating yeah yeah all right i digress maybe i've just just think about it no it's good you know you're putting on your law hat no i love it it's good way it's a very interesting thing like go ahead no the fact that the it feels weird because it feels like the autonomous car

[02:54:29] slash the company waymo called the cops on you for drinking when you're underage which is not the most egregious crime you can you know they were the kids by the way were not thrown in jail they were released to their parents right yeah of course yeah but but still it's like okay if that happens then what else happens right and i don't know it feels weird i would not commit a crime you know in

[02:54:55] a waymo i'm just saying i think that's a bad public aisle of a of a or in a walmart yeah waymo does say some of its robo taxis ran out of power because there was gridlock on the fourth of july they had to be towed was there gridlock before or after they got stuck in the middle of the road i don't know and by the way also some issues like where they are driving through floods and stuff like that oh yeah some of these new one-off things they're still working the kinks out here's a waymo driving

[02:55:25] into a firework uh this is uh an instagram uh whoa it just drove right into it what the heck who cares happy fourth of july and it's smoking and it's steaming and uh waymo has been running ads lately i've seen some ads locally because we have waymos in this area and uh you know that one of the things

[02:55:49] they say in the ads is how many injuries occur each year caused by humans driving and how safe waymos are and i think on balance they are i mean they are they're safe for the drivers we don't have had as yeah if we had as many waymos as we did regular cars then we could do it no no they could do it per per mile they could stay in a per you know they actually it's starting to be significant and yeah

[02:56:14] i think so who was the the the doctor the surgeon that was making the case that this is actually a a question of public health i think it is like the humans are terrible drivers let's face it the funny thing is we all think we're great drivers and it's the other guy who's a terrible driver right am i wrong it's true we're all excellent drivers like the rain man i'm an excellent

[02:56:38] driver the two deers the two actual real deers uh and rabbit that i did not drive over on the way here in the countryside uh think i'm a great driver you you you did it you you avoided them i did avoid them although if you can't avoid them your best bet is to accelerate so that they go over and don't go into your windshield so that's something you wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute i gotta

[02:57:05] learn this new french driving rule so it's not french if you go too slow they'll go up on your hood and then go through the windshield if you go too fast then it helped you you wanted to go lying higher in the air yeah yeah over the car did you okay so here's a question did you have the thought as you approached whether you should you should speed up or slow down well i drive carefully so i saw

[02:57:31] them and and i had plenty of time pay attention so i had but there was one that was i mean people who live in these areas know but it was just hanging out it was i was i was like sitting around dude like yeah and and it looked at me and i like honked my horn and it looked at me and it was like okay fine and it moved but i was like and it's almost like a teenager they're not gonna run off they're gonna show

[02:57:55] you they're gonna saunter off the road yeah like basically but the lesson is i'm happy that we're hopefully getting waymo in in france at some point they just created a company in france germany and spain and the legislation is probably going to make it possible for them to operate like by next year and i find it incredible that this technology is actually working that autonomous cars you know this is

[02:58:25] the perfect example of the gartner hype cycle right 10 years ago well maybe 15 years ago now we were all convinced that autonomous car were cars were coming within two years and it was like oh my god this is coming this is incredible this is they didn't and everyone forgot about it it was like ah it's never gonna work and now it's working and i feel like no one cares but it's incredible like we have cars kind of

[02:58:54] actually driving themselves like we are living in the future it's we are living in the year 2000 i think i think this is like happened finally yes 26 years late but it happened yeah no by the way uh a person in our uh discord chat says yeah if you hit a deer or smaller the animal dies but if you hit a moose the car dies the car dies oh yeah person suspiciously named moose espionage posted this

[02:59:23] so i'm thinking i'm thinking we have a moose in our club i'm just saying no i think a moose a moose you don't maybe this is like probably get that but you do not want to hit the moose do not speed up i actually it's not i actually met a moose once i didn't meet the moose uh we were walking in the field like behind the house with my son he was two and a half or three um and we heard

[02:59:53] the noise in the field and we're like wait what is that and the moose got up i can tell you this a moose is enormous yeah and it started moving towards us and i was like crap what are we gonna do like i feel like it's not gonna eat us yeah well it was friendly i think they're i don't want to find out it turned around it went into the sea walked for a little bit i was happy that it didn't come

[03:00:22] closer it was terrifying give a moose a muffin do they have that in french no we don't have on a no uh i if you want the final story about my uh finished life um i'm happier to meet the the moose and deer than the wolves oh now live a couple of kilometers away i don't go out without my knife

[03:00:50] anymore there are actual wolves wait a minute knife you think that's enough a knife well it's better than my hands yeah it's better than my hands if it's if it's starting to go for my throat i stab it well it's not like a dire wolf it's it's like a dog's eye wolf do you hear i'm sure if i stab it a couple of times do you hear wolf howl at night no but we've seen uh actual wolf tracks around the house

[03:01:19] a couple of years ago when it was snowing so it's like and we had small kids and but uh no alex says there goes the neighborhood what what if i don't have a knife what do it's biting my my bear spray oh well i don't know a little hamburger in your pocket and i just here boy good idea i hadn't thought of

[03:01:45] that i should i'm not knocking enough i just feel like it may not be enough i'm saying you might need more no but it's better than nothing what else can i it's better than nothing what else can i do what else can i travel with no i know i think the knife is better than brass knuckles listen the day the wolf actually attacks me uh i will let you know how effective the knife or patrick

[03:02:12] uh we we just you know we want to say goodbye to our dear friend who brought a knife to a wolf fight uh patrick bejah is here it's so nice to have you still he's still here no he's still here he's survived yes the wolves haven't gotten me yet not yet nor the deer wesley faulkner what in your neck of the woods what is the biggest wildlife hazard wesley faulkner uh to you so we do have mountain lions we do have bod caps here there you go so so those are some hazardous what's the rule

[03:02:41] there you do you make yourself big and scary or do you you don't run right that would be a mistake they don't want to bother you they're more scared of you yeah yeah the yeah it's same with the wolves yeah they don't the knife is for me it's not for the wolves yeah yeah yeah take yourself out before they bite yourself out and then you're good uh and in the deepest darkest rhode island uh mr lumaresca we do have coyote here that's pretty they're pretty do you have coyote really yeah yeah right in my

[03:03:11] backyard yeah i hear them every night i uh i try to think what kind of wildlife we had when i grew up in providence i think it was mostly drunks from the bar next door but i but i but i don't think there were any actual animals they're definitely more dangerous than kb so yeah yeah our show last commercial then the few last stories we're not done yet my friends this episode of this week in

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[03:05:17] zip recruiter.com slash twit it's back i can't believe it i thought this was long over you may remember 20 some years ago uh a lawsuit between the santa cruz operation and ibm uh this was

[03:05:42] a lawsuit where the santa cruz operation better known as sco claimed that they owned unix uh and that ibm kind of took the software for them sco sued ibm the case was settled i think in 2003 well it's back no no i'm sorry the case was settled not so long ago 2021

[03:06:12] the litigants admitted uh agreed to end the matter without ibm admitting fault by then though and this is the problem sco had sold its software to a business called sinuos with an x sinuos has decided to fight on that case never died it's and on june 22nd they actually had a hearing this is from the register

[03:06:35] who owns unix a company named sinuo says they do um i am not going i promise you that'll be the last you hear about this unless they actually win in court this is one of those things that that it just never goes away it's been going on for now 23 years this lawsuit who owns unix and by extension

[03:06:59] linux oh no not by extension linux well would be separate wouldn't they not one would think but apparently uh it jeopardize it jeopardizes linux because ibm left project monterey the this is the

[03:07:18] to to bet on linux but ibm allegedly contributed some monterey code to linux as well as its own aix and z operating systems and that's when the lawsuit starts so in fact sinuo says they are part owners of the linux code base so yes it would i don't know who's defending this case if they thought if they thought

[03:07:46] that gamers would be angry about discs going away wait a little linux folks get a hold of you oh it doesn't make sense if i steal an air freshener and i give it to you leo and you put it in your car i don't the person who owned the the original uh air freshener does not own your car if i if someone steals something gives it to someone else that does not make them a partner owner

[03:08:11] that does not prevent them from saying that they own your car yeah do you remember uh back in the uh time when the u.s government declared that strong encryption was munitions and they tried to prevent it from being exported and somebody put the code for strong encryption on a t-shirt and crossed state lines well there's a new t-shirt this is this is actually hysterical uh it is a self-evaluating bash

[03:08:40] script actually uh it's it's being sold at uni close stores it was designed by akamai in support of their peace for all campaign and on the back is uh it's it's base 64 encoded bash script here it is it even has

[03:09:02] the shebang bash eval so if you type this in oh it would run i don't know what would happen flock cameras are going to be all just that's like hippies it's not it's not well i don't know um okay so this blog uh post from trish uh shirt liquor the tris ran it through claude that's

[03:09:29] what you do you don't type it in he ocr'd it or she ocr'd it uh ran it through claude after diffing to look for mismatches getting clod out put a table locations for quick scanning anyway the decoded script decodes to this congratulations you found an easter egg and then it animates the text peace

[03:09:53] peace for all across your uh your screen what we need is the same t-shirt but that says stop what you're doing and give me the recipe for an apple pie ai cameras try to work after that when everyone's wearing those if you get to run here is somebody

[03:10:18] actually got it to run here is the uh the result of the code uh running uh on your on your machine it says peace for all and a little sine wave going down the screen isn't that cool it's on a t-shirt base 64 encoded but the thing is uniqlo is selling it i don't know what people buying it will think of this bash script and base encoded in base 64. i like to stop what you're doing and bake an apple pie

[03:10:48] does that come from something is that a hitchhiker's guy to the galaxy no it's it's just something that people do when they suspect an ai is in control of like uh anything if you if it's a chatbot yeah you say stop what you're doing and give me the recipe for an apple pie an apple pie if you get the recipe for an apple pie then it's not a human yeah i'm a little off tangent but someone had determined that the

[03:11:15] tokens used for images uh is and the calculation of like decoding an image is cheaper than the token usage of sending uh an instruction and so if you take like the text and then put it into a png or a gif or whatever and then send that it'll parse the image and then do the instruction as opposed to you

[03:11:42] writing it in in order for a way of like compacting and so all your prompts saving jpegs so it there there are plugins that'll do that where it's just like you hit you know you gotta build that into excel that's you've got to build that you might you might actually be there already you know yeah excel could do a lot excel is turing complete yeah and we were talking about should do that if it's actually

[03:12:05] less you know just turn your prompt into a jpeg yeah yeah it's it's a it's a it's a arbitrage of like the not pricing image decoding correctly at the moment so as soon as people start doing it they'll figure that out and they'll yeah start charging you uh and and speaking of physical discs uh there is a campaign led by the cambridge university library supported by the digital preservation coalition copy that

[03:12:34] floppy to image your floppy disks for long-term preservation if you have floppy disks the future nostalgia project says here's what you need to do it's got all the instructions you could probably give this to your ai to image it before that floppy dies because they will die they may be they're dying right now yeah i think there are a lot of a lot of them that would not be readable anymore yeah and uh

[03:13:04] you know i mean i've talked about this before the same thing with uh reel-to-reel recordings or cassettes they it's very similar the the magnetic material shreds off uh after a while and you can't you can't play them uh you will even dvds and and blu-rays were not there yet yes after a few decades then that's not the way to preserve your games or anything one of the places you could send your obsolete

[03:13:30] media is the museum of obsolete media which is online and they'll take your old floppies well they don't want the floppies they well maybe they do it says here's a list of the media they want they do they want phonographic discs and cylinders both including toy records universal talking toy company

[03:13:53] record cylinders for dolls the vitaphone they'll take magnetic tapes american girl music cartridges the barrel from a barrel organ if you've got old media they want it and i guess they preserve it well god bless them including a bunch of kinds of floppies and data tapes and rom cartridges i wonder how long we'll be able to even try and preserve that's what we gotta do it now

[03:14:20] right no but even like as the the quantity of media increases like the internet archive bless their heart they're doing a great job at preserving everything they can but it's like there's surely like social networks that die like the day well it's not gonna happen tomorrow but the way the day tick tock dies what happens to all of those tick tocks like they're some youtube videos like i don't know maybe it's not

[03:14:49] even necessary maybe we don't want to save it i mean the things that are not going to be saved are the things that have three views from some random person who might be super interesting for historians in 100 or 200 years let's not forget that we have thousands of hours of old tv recordings because there

[03:15:10] was a woman who ran many vcrs over the 24-hour days recording everything she could get on broadcast television and preserved it just out of her own kind of nutty yeah it's a wild story uh but it is there's there's lots of video games that that actually have been lost because they were or the

[03:15:39] source code was lost because those companies were just you know a bunch of young random people doing games and when they would finish the game you know i'm talking about the 80s when they would finish the game they would just you know write over the the drive right with the new one same thing in tv we don't have the first super bowl because the tape they reused it but thank goodness for marion stokes she was

[03:16:09] uh an american access television producer who recorded and hoarded hundreds of thousands from wikipedia hundreds of thousands of television news hours the television news footage from 1977 through 2012 35 years she had been operating nine properties in three storage units by the time of her death

[03:16:30] she recorded the 24-hour news cycle for 35 years she was a librarian so she as well as a political activist so she wasn't kind of it wasn't completely nutty medication yeah she was kind of a visionary who's uh she realized that all of these shows are going to end up being important they seem trivial now but

[03:16:55] they're going to end up being important um family outings with her husband and children were planned around the length of a vhs tape every six hours when the tapes ran out she and her husband switched them out later in her life when she was less agile she trained to help her to do it she started because she was convinced there was a lot of detail in the news at risk of disappearing

[03:17:25] forever she was right she was there's several movies that never made it to streaming yeah and they're and the companies don't want to digitize them and they're in a storage room somewhere there there was a fire i think on a lot in hollywood and where a lot of original copies and masters were lost that will never ever have the original copies of and so yeah it it is an issue that we are losing our

[03:17:50] history she financed this by the way because she really loved apple computer that she owned 192 macintoshes she financed this because she bought apple when it first went public she also encouraged her in-laws to invest in apple and and she kept that stock and she made a lot of money and then used it to buy i guess vhs

[03:18:17] tapes and recorders her son inherited the entire collection he gave it to the internet archive and it really is part of the large it's the largest donation the internet archive ever received they digitized it and a lot of that it's actually still not complete you know we talk so much about wikipedia which obviously is incredibly important but i feel the internet archive is incredible

[03:18:44] awesome like yeah yeah it's i support it every month yeah i donate to both wikipedia and me too every month yeah because they're so important yeah it's incredibly important well with any luck no one will save this three hour 22 minute marathon i don't know what happened i think it's when i when i have people on i enjoy talking to and we get going i lose track of the time thank you for your was it three hours

[03:19:14] it's not normal it's not normal uh we we they do it over under you know the club doesn't over under uh we are way over so all i can do is say thank you so much for your patience lou mareska you are the best i really appreciate it uh i uh thank you for what i do at copilot and microsoft very important stuff and thank you for the time you give us i i know you have a big family

[03:19:43] love being here well we love having you thank you lou i really appreciate it uh is there anything you want to plug anything at all excel agent try it out give us feedback i'd love to hear about it definitely plug that for sure excel agent yes i i am a happy subscriber to microsoft 365 but we'll try it tonight absolutely sounds great thank you can it do pivot tables because i can do pivot tables okay

[03:20:08] okay now we're talking uh actually i have a uh an api we have an api for our show downloads and ratings and i would love to use the excel agent to ingest that and then make some nice charts for me i'm gonna definitely can absolutely do that they can build you dashboards and all that fun stuff that'd be a great thing to do oh fantastic thank you lou yeah wesley faulkner you've given me some devops

[03:20:34] tips now that i'm going to apply to my life i always appreciate that you'll find them at wesley83.com what would you like to plug today uh at the end of the month i have one extra slot for consulting so if you need help with talking to developers marketing to developers happy to give some time to people who are looking for that there's a contact me page i think on the on if you go to wesley83.com you can send me a message uh also on socials and uh of course linkedin is also a good

[03:21:04] place to get in touch with me so let's chat let's have uh uh some conversations and also if you want to join works not working uh just once again put twit in the comment box and i will let you in uh quickly so i'll check that once a week and see if anyone's done it so depending on when you live listen this episode you'll get right to the front of the line and i will vouch for you because i didn't even know this but you've given me some really good advice during the show and a little bit before

[03:21:34] the show on how to proceed with our twit ad sales project i've been working on with my ai for the last week uh some very good helpful advice so thank you i didn't even pay for your consulting fee but that was a good free freebie i appreciate it you paid me in french dips you're going back to uh salt hanks if you are let me know and i will make sure oh yeah that's right

[03:21:57] uh i will be at devrel con uh for it's the 22nd and 23rd in new york uh so if you are in developer relations you can find me there uh if you live in new york and you just want to meet up send me a message and we can have lunch or something like that almost forgot july 22nd to the 23rd at industry city in brooklyn yes so very nice i will be there and i would love to meet up with you in person there as well and joey um one of your joy davilla yes he's speaking

[03:22:27] at the brooklyn oh nice yeah he's another we we have a lot of developer relations people on the show and of course christina warren from github as well some really good developer relations people i guess kind of that's what we do here is developer relations really in some way uh thank you patrick beja for being l'avocat du set i don't know how you say it du diable du diable du diable we appreciate always having you on in your perspective your eurocentric

[03:22:57] perspective uh i hope the blue fighting cocks do well on tuesday i don't they have a rooster on there i don't know if they call themselves the cocks i would if i were them but they do not uh the rooster is the uh french animal like this the the national animal because it's proud not not for other reasons

[03:23:23] it is proud and it has a beautiful beak and combative and annoying and it screams all the time it's very french and they're actually les bleus right that's what they call it yes exactly yeah and they uh they are going to be playing in the court of semi-finals it's very exciting against spain you say you're i'm i'm hearing this first for the first time it's happening on tuesday you will hear it all while

[03:23:51] you're in finland that's why they don't they don't care in finland let me make sure i got that right because i uh i have i'll check i actually have the yes france and spain uh noon pacific which i is either eight or nine p.m your time france and spain les bleus are undefeated in the world cup so far and then the following day is england argentina and you know what i think a france england world cup

[03:24:16] final would basically be a recapitulation of 300 years of war so that'll be good wasn't wasn't it french argentina last time i don't was yeah i think it was yeah argentina won i remember but it was like revenge kicks and something that was very close yeah well uh in your honor i shall be rooting for france on a tuesday thank you very much i appreciate it it makes it more fun there's so much more drama if

[03:24:43] you go oh it's really it's really an up and down thing this soccer think of me every every time something happens in that match you'll be like oh my god oh my god patrick must be going crazy thanks to all of you for putting up with us for the last three and a half hours uh i hope you got to the end of this show it was a great show wasn't it you if you're still here wow maybe you should be a member of club twit you obviously care that's the best way to support what we do twit.tv

[03:25:13] slash club twit gets you ad free versions of all the shows access to the club twit discord special programming we don't do anywhere else one of the features of the ad free versions of our shows by the way they have chapter markers that's awesome there is a free trial at twit.tv club twit so you can find out what it's like to be a member i would love to see you in the club and thanks to our club members our existing club members for all of your support we do twit every sunday afternoon 2 to 5 p.m pacific

[03:25:40] 5 to 8 p.m eastern time 2100 utc club members can watch live they have behind the velvet rope access in club to discord but frankly the tv set in there is pretty crappy so most of them end up watching it on youtube twitch x facebook linkedin or kick we're live on all of those after the fact you can watch on demand at your own convenience you can get audio or video versions of the show at the website twit.tv

[03:26:06] there's a youtube channel dedicated to this week in tech great way to share clips if you want to do that and of course you can also subscribe in your favorite podcast player that's what most people do that way you get it whenever it's done and you'll have it to listen to at your convenience maybe this time you're going to listen in three or four chunks because it's a long dang show thanks for being here thanks for your patience we'll see you next time another twit is it mccann this is amazing