TWiT 984: Fifty-three Clicks - Bot Farms in Ukraine, LA Public Health Dept. Phished

[00:00:00] It's time for TWiT this week in tech. Great panel for you and Gadget's Devinder Hardawar is here Daniel Rubino from Windows Central and we celebrate Father's Day with an actual father, Father Robert Palacer, the digital Jesuit. Microsoft says what I don't recall.

[00:00:16] The Stanford Internet Observatory is being shut down for I think shameful reasons. How Apple found a path to Apple intelligence and the passing of a true computer pioneer, but a woman many of you have never heard of. I know I hadn't. It's all coming up next on TWiT.

[00:00:38] Podcasts you love from people you trust. This is TWiT. This is TWiT. This week in tech, episode 984 recorded Sunday, June 16th, 2024. 53 clicks. It's time for TWiT this week in tech. The show we cover the week's tech news. It was a very busy

[00:01:13] week so we've brought in the heavy hitters. Devinder Hardawar is back from Cupertino dressed in his, what is that? It's the clothes of my god, Kirby. Nintendo's Kirby. My kids got

[00:01:26] me a Kirby shirt for Father's Day. I love it. I'm here on live stream with it. So I remember when you first was born and you were a brand new father. How old is it? Five years ago. Five years, wow.

[00:01:39] Devinder of course senior editor of Engadget, one of our favorite people so much so he's often a fill-in when I'm out of town. Thank you for being here Devinder. We love having you on.

[00:01:47] Always fun. Yeah, happy to join you guys. Happy Father's Day. It's very nice of you to come on a Father's Day. It really is. It's great. That's the sacrifice. We had our celebration. The kids

[00:01:56] are sick of me now so this is perfect. Okay good. Great in that case. Great. Also here Daniel Rubino who is a dog father, editor-in-chief of Windows Central. Hi Daniel. Hello, thanks for having me.

[00:02:10] Great to see you. You've got Craig Federighi's hair. Did you borrow that for the show or? I'm getting there. I just, I gave up on getting haircuts. They're just uh they're too expensive. We Italians are known for our lush locks. That's all I'm saying. That's the

[00:02:25] other thing. Yeah like I'm getting to that age. I'm like you know what I still have it. I love it. I'm just gonna grow it out. Yes absolutely. You know it's gorgeous. It's actually gorgeous.

[00:02:34] So keep up the good work. Yeah and then there's another father on the show for Father's Day. Father Robert Balliser whose locks are not exactly blowing in the wind. They are not. Great to see

[00:02:47] you. I'm also wearing a Kirby shirt. This is Kirby in his later years. It's very dark. Kirby after he became a priest. Father Robert is in the Vatican right now and just a few stairs, a few steps below

[00:02:59] him Jason Howell who's visiting. He is visiting although I asked him to come up but he has an early morning appointment at the Colosseum tomorrow with his family. Oh fun. They just

[00:03:12] got off the plane and he's a little bit tired. Yeah it's a tiny bit. It's later. It's like 11 o'clock at night right? Oh yeah. Yeah so it's later there. Well that's great though that he

[00:03:22] could stay in the house with you and enjoy Rome. Rome is my favorite city. I adore it and I hope he has a great time there. We already have an appointment tomorrow. We were going to come up

[00:03:33] on the roof once the sun starts to go down and we're going to have wine and aperitivos watching the sun go down over St. Peter's. Oh so jealous. That is awesome. All right well I don't know where to start. I guess the week started with Apple's big event.

[00:03:51] It's funny how here we are six days later, seven days later and it's like what was that? It kind of wears off. I was there and I feel that way. Do you? Like oh wow what happened?

[00:04:03] Yeah I was there for three days. They did a two-hour keynote which we streamed live with Micah and first hour and a half do not mention AI but it's also really interesting because everything they're talking about seems to be or many of the things they're talking about seems

[00:04:22] to be AI driven. They're just not saying it and then they Sherlocked AI by saying you know what AI stands for? Apple intelligence and I thought that was brilliant. That was a very smart branding

[00:04:34] move. Did you get to play with anything afterwards Devendra? I mean they showed me things hands-off. I saw some demos like I saw you know I think I saw the Siri in action. Some of those features

[00:04:48] like it's cool. It looks really cool and having covered pretty much all the major like AI releases so far I think it's the most interesting one and the one that could be the most beneficial to

[00:04:57] actual consumers. So that's fun. I will point out though Leo I've asked a ton of people at Apple pretty much everybody I encountered like how do you shorten Apple intelligence? And as soon as I

[00:05:09] ask that question the programming in their brains just like shut down because they will not say AI. They don't want to say the word. They will not say artificial intelligence. So like the corporate

[00:05:16] command was clearly this is not AI. Don't say AI even though that those are the initials they stole basically. So I found that funny. I wrote that up in gadget but yeah Apple doesn't call it AI

[00:05:28] or anything shorter than Apple intelligence. That's the short version. Wow that's the short version. Somebody called it personal intelligence which is actually longer. So good job Apple. Yeah let's add a syllable. But I have to say I thought it was very smart of them. They had a

[00:05:44] we talked about this last week before the event and I was saying they've got a very narrow path here. They don't want to look like they're just saying copycats me too. But at the same time they don't want to look like they're laggard either because clearly the stock

[00:06:02] market is rewarding companies that have AI anywhere near them. I mean just look at NVIDIA. So they had to do something that was I thought challenging and maybe even not even possible but

[00:06:15] they did it. I thought I was very impressed. Now none of the things they showed are going to be available. They're not available even when it comes out in the fall. It probably is going to be

[00:06:27] later this year or maybe even early next year for for instance. That was the latest German report that a series especially the series stuff looks the coolest and maybe delayed a bit but I just

[00:06:36] want to point out like this is what Apple does right except at hyper speed. They weren't the first MP3s they weren't the first of smartphones and this kind of seems like that playbook you know

[00:06:45] in action. The last year must have been so frustrating though because these folks had neural engines in their processors since 2017 and now the phrase is AI PC because they've got MPUs

[00:06:56] but Apple's over there in the corner saying hey we've been doing this we've done it. We just didn't say those same things. So they were really like victims of the AI hype cycle as well I think over

[00:07:06] the last year. Those were the practice after Tim Cook finished the ad for Apple TV shows the completely superfluous having nothing to do with developers ad for Apple TV shows the almost the very first words out of his mouth were we've been doing this

[00:07:21] for a long time. It's true that Apple iPhones ever since Apple Silicon have had neural processors they call it machine learning dedicated hardware for machine learning. They're very well positioned Qualcomm's done that too though right Qualcomm's been there for over a decade using the same

[00:07:38] technology so they're all just part of that they're just they are trying to like kind of catch up to what is now become AI PC right this idea of like generative on a computer has become a little bit

[00:07:50] more interesting especially for video creation right. So this isn't because I thought the Snapdragon X architecture was the first to have NPUs you're saying Qualcomm is always in NPUs but on the phones right yeah but even even the Surface Pro 9 with the Snapdragon

[00:08:10] 8cx Gen 3 that has a an NPU that's as powerful as Intel's current processors on the market. Which is more something about Intel than it is about Qualcomm. Right yeah that chip was also awful like I reviewed that computer and I was so pissed off

[00:08:28] that Microsoft called that machine a Surface Pro 9 5G. Sir there is nothing pro about you you're slow you don't run as fast as the other Surface Pro it was very confusing to consumers

[00:08:38] and branding and everything and yeah that was super well this is one of the reasons features we held our breath when Qualcomm said wait till you see this is faster than an M3 blah blah blah

[00:08:47] because they have disappointed before but they now June 18th is the nominal day that we're going to see these you probably already have some data okay are you under embargo right now you probably

[00:08:58] can't talk about it. It's been a messy embargo let's just say that yeah and it has to do with Cold Pilot and specifically Recall has been screwing things up for reviewers that said yeah

[00:09:11] the 18th we will have coverage of some of these devices okay nothing I will say it's it's just like it's looking very positive you know like I think people are waiting to catch

[00:09:23] Qualcomm and a lie because they have done so many times before that's all they do yeah yeah and to be fit yeah well to be fair you know they were using ARM limited

[00:09:34] uh you know processor designs right and because ARM as a as a company who designs the chips couldn't design something that could compete with the M series they had no choice but to

[00:09:46] do the best they could with what they had them going and buying Nuvia. Ah Nuvia. Well they bought Nuvia yeah so now they're Nuvia being so Nuvia's ex-Apple engineers uh the ones that designed the

[00:09:59] A-series chips that led to the M-series and they started as a company building server chips that was their goal they were going to build ARM based server chips and from what I'm hearing this actual

[00:10:09] first design is a uh a server based design and I hear Gen 2 is actually going to be the bigger one the more interesting one because that's actually gonna be the real mobile first chip now they're

[00:10:21] not talking about Gen 2 at all because they want to get Gen 1 out the door but I'm already hearing great things about Gen 2 because I'm hearing like there's this question like is Gen 2 just gonna be

[00:10:30] like a spec bump right or is it going to be significantly something different and I'm hearing significantly something different I hear it's a no jump and it's gonna be a big performance increase

[00:10:39] too so um but now ARM is really upset so all these companies have been like kind of battling with this NPU stuff for a while it's just now we have a use for it you know and the usage uh cases for

[00:10:51] I think is growing exponentially. I think that's an Apple specialty here right like we've talked about Qualcomm's talked about NPUs Apple's had this stuff for a while too but even like back in 2017 like Apple it was applied to functional things like computer vision technology stuff

[00:11:05] happening in your photo library and now that's essentially where they've aligned all the Apple intelligence tools it's stuff you can use it's making Siri smarter, transcribing notes and voice memos, doing like a little bit of text cleanup in your email or something not like

[00:11:21] hey here's a search engine that can like write things for you or create images for you that is a part of it but Apple's like it's very far off and they could like cut that tether to open AI

[00:11:31] like whenever they wanted to so kind of a really smart implementation of AI so far. How's it very different is it much different though than Samsung's AI uh because like on the S24 Ultra

[00:11:41] like they have like I don't know like six or seven areas where it integrates with including does the notes and translation stuff. I mean it's all this all feel like yeah it's like co-pilot

[00:11:51] yeah but do you think like Apple has at least thought about it a little more it's like like thoughtfulness that we talk about I don't want to be a fanboy here because I cover and I use both

[00:11:59] Windows PCs and and Apple stuff too my main desktop is Windows and that's where I live most of my computing life but it is nice to see a company kind of like look at what everybody did over the

[00:12:10] last year like Microsoft just announced the the Bing chat and went all in on co-pilot and I think a lot of us were like what is happening why is Microsoft this company you know that is

[00:12:19] now invested like pretty much half into open AI leaning like putting all their stuff into this technology which is unproven and nobody's really asking for this um the Apple approach at least seems a little more thoughtful and slower and maybe they'll be criticized for it I think the

[00:12:34] stock market didn't like that but actually like wait a minute the stock market didn't like it day of yeah we're watching it because I mentioned this on Sunday I said watch how the stock market

[00:12:44] uh responds day of it was kind of up and down but mostly down the next day Apple had its best day in two years and and soared uh above Nvidia again uh I mean it was a very big I don't know

[00:12:59] what the latest is I didn't watch the rest of the week but it was clear that at first the market was suspicious but after they thought about it for a day they very much embraced uh the Apple approach

[00:13:10] father Robert do you have that's just the market you know yeah that's just the market that's just the market and I don't know if I believe in the wisdom of the crowd and all of that um currently

[00:13:19] Apple's down a little bit but uh let's look at the the five days so you can see the jump like that yeah they're significantly up though yeah oh yeah they're way up yeah yeah when we try to explain

[00:13:33] the AI the current AI craze to people who are are less tech savvy over here one of the things that we try to emphasize is all the NPUs from basically every manufacturer are good at one thing which is

[00:13:46] pattern and object recognition that's what they do there is very specialized processor even more specialized than a GPU now what you do with the pattern or the object that you recognized how you transform it how you correlate it to something else that's the secret sauce behind every

[00:14:01] manufacturer's AI approach but the core processing that object recognition that has to happen at the beginning they basically operate the same way across the industry now what Apple is doing and

[00:14:13] I think I actually kind of like their approach is rather than trying to focus on oh we do AI and it can do so many different things they're they're actually defining the objects that they're

[00:14:22] interested in that's actually a novel approach right now in the AI market which is you have a manufacturer who isn't just saying we might be able to do a bunch of really interesting things

[00:14:34] and then you've got Apple saying we want to do these six things specifically I kind of like that I also want to point out because uh mashed potato in our club twit discord is saying isn't it a bit

[00:14:45] early to declare Apple's AI a success that's really not at this point what we're talking about we're talking about marketing Apple's marketing seems to have trumped everybody else's whether they produce is a whole different story we haven't even seen these copilot plus PCs yet so we've

[00:15:03] seen but we have seen copilot in action for the last year and also copilot pro and open AI's chat and yeah a lot of like a lot of it's cool but it's like what am I doing with this cool AI generated

[00:15:15] what do I do with this how does this help my life but that's part of isn't that the part of the process within technology like this is the technology is invented now what do we do with it

[00:15:24] is you know we smashed the atom now what do we do with it it took a few years it totally is except like Microsoft within a year was like hey this is in Windows now this is an office this isn't

[00:15:35] everything we love copilot we love open AI six months ago well you know before that thing was announced nobody knew what this was it was very good for Microsoft stock it was good I have to

[00:15:45] point out that there has been now it is a uh mark on their escutcheon in fact there's a third step in the recall debacle first they announce recall something that takes a snapshot of everything you

[00:15:58] do on a copilot plus PC every few seconds saves it all for you for AI to search later so you can say hey what were we talking about last week or whatever security community goes ballistic

[00:16:10] Microsoft says oh sorry we're gonna make it opt-in and we're gonna add some nice you can't access it until you verify using our hello security and so forth and apparently that wasn't enough because

[00:16:22] they've now said never mind we're not going to ship it with a copilot plus PCs only for Windows insiders down the road this is to me this is a perfect example of and we've seen it in many other

[00:16:35] cases Google uh showing uh you know the black pope a lot of these companies have gotten in trouble well all the barred issues like the day they announced that thing was because they had to

[00:16:46] respond to Microsoft it hallucinated the day they released it yeah so uh Apple still hasn't released anything so there's not you know they have for instance a new image at app that's going to be on

[00:16:59] all your Apple devices that will make images you know we don't know day two it might start showing the founding fathers uh in in a different light you know they may it may be a declared woke

[00:17:10] we don't know so right now we're just rating the marketing and also like what they're saying I think there are things we're talking about like Apple saying like we have built our own like a

[00:17:20] small model that is on your phone our cloud model is supposedly secure and that they the way they've talked about their cloud model it sounds better or at least more secure than other solutions we've

[00:17:30] seen when they do work with open ai apple has said like it is anonymized to the point where it's like the most secure way of using chat gpt I don't think that convinced Elon Musk you oh we've all

[00:17:42] seen his his knee-jerk reaction was if Apple puts open ai on iPhones then we are going to ban iPhones from all of our facilities if you come to this if you come to the front door with an iPhone

[00:17:59] we will take it from you and put it in a Faraday cage until you leave um that might have been an little overreaction on Elon's part because he's not a fan of she sends like to be fair like it's

[00:18:12] not like Android it's known for the world's best security like I mean it already has it has Gemini on it has all this stuff so I just like I mean fair you know the media jumps on this we covered

[00:18:26] it too because it's kind of funny but that dude just says stuff all the time and doesn't do it he's not going to be an Apple product he's not right sometimes I don't know what's happening

[00:18:37] with him yeah yeah he's not gonna be an Apple products he's not gonna make his own phone alternative either and if he does it's guaranteed to fail like it but we eat the stainless steel

[00:18:49] I mean who doesn't want to cut you when you go to use it every time you use it yeah it's great news copy though and I fell for it and I reported it sorry by the way no we did too

[00:19:01] his shareholders did give him his uh his bonus uh 40 I think it ended up being 46 billion dollars uh even though a judge in Delaware had said no Elon's there's no way Elon's worth that

[00:19:15] that was an unfair process the board voted it to him so he went to the shareholders and the shareholders said no no we love you keep the money so there you go that's the entire

[00:19:26] thrust of the Elon reportage please keep tweeting please keep saying the first thought in your mind without any resource whatsoever we love it there's billions tens of billions of dollars you know Leo uh there actually is another angle to the AI story from Apple intelligence and Microsoft which

[00:19:41] is basically what Apple's trying to do with Apple intelligence is what Microsoft was trying to do with recall which is to solve a very early AI problem that we brought up on the show multiple

[00:19:52] times and that's poisoning the well right all AI is susceptible to having crap information well what Microsoft was trying to do with recall was the silo information from a user so that that particular AI only learns from that user's data Apple's trying to do the same thing

[00:20:08] with Apple intelligence so at some point they have to explain that to people they have to say look the only way we can keep you from getting an AI that has gone insane or become racist is to train

[00:20:21] it only on your data they just haven't done a really good job of explaining that yet and that's where Microsoft screwed up here like I tweeted out even about how Microsoft's PR reaction when I

[00:20:31] was in Taipei and I was talking to companies off the record like they were all just throwing Microsoft on the bus on this they were just like they had a field questions from analysts and just

[00:20:42] people and it was just like I don't know how at Microsoft they just granted they said okay it's all processed locally it doesn't go to the cloud fair and that's a huge that's a huge thing right

[00:20:54] that may does make a difference but going into the details about the rest of the security and how it worked or didn't work was one of those things you know two days later day and a half

[00:21:04] later they had an FAQ page I kind of explained all this that should have been out day one in fact what they should have done is before they announced this they should have pre-briefed the

[00:21:12] media with like a whole hour deep dive into it explain how it works how the security works answer any questions so when media went to press they would have all those answers in front of them

[00:21:23] and be like yeah you may be concerned about the security but not always that localized but it's encrypted all the time it's only decrypted when it scans your face and like at least the media then

[00:21:33] would have done the heavy lifting now Microsoft is backtracking on this and trying to explain it and make up things and oh it's opt-in now and it just looks bad and I don't know how

[00:21:43] I don't know how that happened it's like it's like it's pure it's hubris isn't it it's like Microsoft thinking everybody loves us now we got co-pilot we got open AI everybody loves Microsoft

[00:21:56] here is the thing where if Microsoft had announced this five years ago we would have had like tanks pointed at Redmond or something like what are you what are you trying to do to our computers

[00:22:05] Microsoft you were totally right Daniel that they should have like pre-briefed people and also like had deeper conversations but they should have been talking to security researchers in depth as this thing was being built which it really sounds like again like that's something Apple literally

[00:22:19] said like hey the the software that they're using on the private cloud is out there for researchers to audit we only talk to those like approved servers so that's kind of a nice thing it is

[00:22:29] wild that Microsoft talked about this thing and Daniel I'm sure you were there at uh at their campus when the announcement was happening too when I talked about when I asked them questions

[00:22:37] about this they gave me like security platitudes like yeah we're taking this seriously I did ask like is it enabled by default and they said yes somebody had told me you could change that at

[00:22:47] the login process but apparently that wasn't the case so I think people were also confused at Microsoft it's a whole like it's a lot of like lack of preparation that got them into this mess

[00:22:56] it's pure hubris to me I indirectly blame Apple for this actually because what Microsoft is trying to do is be like Apple they're trying to feel bad they want to have these events when they announce like jaw-dropping new features and technologies that catch everyone by surprise

[00:23:12] even though we had kind of talked about this I'm going to set for months ago uh but like you know so they try to do that so they that's why they kept it all a secret they did the same thing on

[00:23:21] the Surface team they do this too and it's just because they they want to have those Apple moments and you know if if you get it right it works but when you get it wrong it's you know this is a

[00:23:33] major walk back now and Qualcomm isn't happy this was supposed to be their honeymoon period where they're going into this with their brand new processors which do look very good and it's

[00:23:42] going to be combined with these brand new features which I think we call is actually really awesome I'm really looking forward to it but I get the concerns around it and the concerns need to be

[00:23:51] addressed and people need to talk about that but uh I don't know the courses will be taught as they tweeted on this about how poorly Microsoft handled this whole whole thing I'm assumed to like within

[00:24:03] within like minutes by the way of Microsoft almost announcing it where that day researchers were using the early versions of it and we're like I can I can see this database in another account I didn't

[00:24:12] have to authenticate to see this I don't understand how that was even possible somebody like that's firing you send that person to the moon whoever allowed that to happen some of this honestly is

[00:24:22] that Microsoft doesn't have the level of trust these days that Apple does so no matter what had happened from either company Microsoft would have come under tougher scrutiny than Apple just because people look at look what happened to Brad Smith when he went to the Homeland Security Committee

[00:24:41] uh this week uh I mean the not that Congress is the arbiter of OPSEC or anything like that but Ron Wyden who's pretty smart Eric Schmidt from Minnesota uh were scathing and and Brad Smith ultimately said yeah um we could have done we could have

[00:25:06] done better um to be fair to Microsoft I mean part of their problem is they're so massive and successful so like yeah you know like Apple doesn't really have this issue like right Apple has

[00:25:19] does well in laptops and does some PC but it's still around what between 10 to 15 percent of the market depending on who you're looking at whereas Microsoft is just as they're just global they're an enterprise they're an education they're in hospitals and they do with their cloud stuff they

[00:25:34] do do business with China and it's like you can question that as we should but at the same time at the end of day they're a capitalist company who needs to make money and there's a lot of money

[00:25:45] to be made in China and so it's like yeah you know it was said years ago that let's do business with China they're our best trading partners now in the last few years things are getting like all right

[00:25:55] wait we gotta look at this China thing they're getting a little crazy over there and so now they're kind of backtracking and now it's like what are you guys doing so much business with China for

[00:26:03] and it's like well I mean it's what we do we're in business and this is an interesting question like do American corporations have obligations to the United States government and the citizenry for you

[00:26:15] know national security stuff like that's a weird area to get into but it's definitely one that's worth discussing. I think they do have an obligation to every user however to make sure that security is

[00:26:27] job one and Microsoft has said that they're going to do that many times I mean Windows XP was supposed to be the most secure version of Windows they'd ever made and even what's sad is this testimony

[00:26:41] is during the recall recall and Smith actually cited Microsoft's reversal on recall as an example of their revitalized efforts in security well oh so you just figured that out huh it doesn't

[00:26:58] it doesn't look good and and and it's why people are I think less trustworthy of Microsoft I agree with your defense Daniel I'm not saying you know of course yeah but at the same time these

[00:27:11] are real issues these are real issues this the Microsoft exchange issues I mean there's just been this continuous effect there's a story here I'm trying to find it about Microsoft refusing to fix the hack this is from ProPublica in SolarWinds and now you know we'll

[00:27:37] have to we'll have to vet this guy but Andrew Harris worked at Microsoft to 2016 he discovered a penetration that involved the company's cloud Azure and that the attackers managed to do without leaving any trace according to ProPublica he figured it out he focused on a Microsoft application

[00:28:00] and ensured users had permission to log in the product used by millions to log onto their work contained a flaw this is 20 remember this is five years ago more than five years ago eight years ago contained a flaw that could allow attackers to masquerade as legitimate employees

[00:28:19] he he had come from the defense department he knew about security he went to Microsoft and said we got a problem here flagged the issue to his colleagues according to ProPublica they saw it differently now this is Harris telling ProPublica the federal government was preparing to make a

[00:28:37] massive investment in cloud computing Microsoft wanted the business acknowledging the security flaw could jeopardize the company's chances he recalled one product leader telling him multi-billion dollar deal he please Harris says he pleaded with again again we this is one person's

[00:28:55] word somewhat credible but still he said he pleaded with the company for several weeks to address the flaw a ProPublica investigation is found but at every turn Microsoft dismissed his warning um and then of course he left uh yeah that's that's damning like there's no there's no like

[00:29:16] sugarcoating like how bad that seems for Microsoft it reminds me I don't know if you guys have been following the whole the British post office scandal thing but it kind of reminds me of that story too

[00:29:25] where this a massive institution somebody was like hey your stuff is messed up and it's actually making my life more difficult and the institution just failed to listen because they were so big and

[00:29:35] it would be inconvenient to actively to actually listen to the problems and Microsoft deserves all the blame Harris works for CrowdStrike now I should give I'll give you Microsoft's response because again uh this is just one guy and this is during ProPublica which is fairly credible

[00:29:51] but because it leans into what we already think about Microsoft it becomes a little more credible right this is this is a perception problem Microsoft's response to ProPublica quote protecting customers is always our highest priority our security response team takes all

[00:30:08] security issues seriously gives every case due diligence with a thorough manual assessment as well as cross-confirming with engineering and security partners our assessment of this issue received multiple reviews and was and these are weasel words if I ever heard heard them

[00:30:24] aligned with the industry consensus in other words we ignored it because everybody said yeah no big nobody cared enough yeah we should have cared about more what what product uh is this is this

[00:30:38] the uh what is it called uh envoy what is it it's uh part of Microsoft's that's a good question intra is this intra he's talking about I wonder they don't say in the ProPublica story and I

[00:30:51] thought maybe Daniel you might know no I suspect it's intra because I think the solar winds thing was an intra flaw anyway um I'm sure we'll hear more about this just yeah it's just Microsoft's continuing culture problems it's a culture they've improved over the years you know they

[00:31:10] they are trying but there is so a lot of legacy people there although surprisingly a lot of left over the recent years as well but you know this is a company that's just massive you know I kind

[00:31:22] of agree here with Zuckerberg's approach of trying to eliminate a lot of middle management I think you know that's a really good strategy and maybe I don't know Microsoft needs to do that but what

[00:31:32] you have are a lot of small independent departments who all are trying to accomplish their own tasks meet their own goals and sometimes it doesn't align with other companies or other areas within

[00:31:43] that company and I you get that competition and you know I think it's just prioritization they need to make money and inner corners get cut I think you know what Devin was talking about with

[00:31:53] a co-pilot you know Microsoft pivoted really fast on that it's true they you know laid off a lot of people and then they just pivoted completely towards it and they raced to get it out the door

[00:32:06] and it worked for them mostly but security definitely probably took a back seat to this stuff you know and it's going to catch up with them I think everybody who messes with AI will

[00:32:17] have a security issue but Microsoft needs to be a little bit uh a little bit more careful and although you know their trust with public is probably is not as good as Apple that's for certain I think

[00:32:27] it's definitely better than Google um yeah that's not saying much no no but like it is funny when as far as companies being dragged in front of like Congress and stuff like that Microsoft has

[00:32:39] been managed to really void most of the most controversies yeah uh by the way I found the name of the service hold on a second the service was Active Directory Federation Services ADFS

[00:32:54] and it was a SAML it was a SAML issue um and and that's what he pinpointed not Entra um it was a SAML attack and and and ProPublica agrees basically with what you just said Daniel it was a clash a culture clash a clash with the won't fix

[00:33:12] culture some people took it seriously but the people who mattered did not um they're trained here's a quote from the story by Dustin Childs who worked in the Microsoft uh RC uh in the years leading up to the saga they're trained because they're so resource constrained

[00:33:29] to think of these cases in terms of how can I get to won't fix that's that's a culture problem right that's all it is and maybe Microsoft which has said oh we're going to fix this

[00:33:41] we recognize the problem maybe Microsoft can fix this but you see this is where you get lack of trust because people read these stories and go yikes go ahead I'm sorry uh did you want

[00:33:53] to say something father yeah I was just saying that um Microsoft 100% deserves blame uh and yes it is a major culture program a problem but they have had a program for 21 years now called GSP

[00:34:08] which has allowed government agencies to actually look at their source code that's pretty good so while while that should not alleviate or ameliorate anything that Microsoft deserves for that cultural problem of terrible security I do kind of want to ask the question of if

[00:34:25] Congress has really really really wanted to do something about Microsoft security why are they not taking advantage of the GSP program and their own experts to actually comb through the source

[00:34:35] code for the services that they use uh that's NATO does it China does it Russia does it Poland does it so why isn't there enough manpower in the United States to actually have our experts combing over

[00:34:51] the code that they use talk about a culture problem that is our culture right we trust in in the United States we trust businesses more than we trust government we our space program is

[00:35:02] run by SpaceX and Boeing uh our you know our internet uh in the Ukraine is provided by Starlink this is a classic case of government going back to the Reagan era saying yeah yeah yeah we

[00:35:16] government's a bad idea let's let private industry handle this and obviously this is a case where both government and private industry failed Brad Smith said Microsoft accepts responsibility for each and every one of these issues cited in the Cyber Safety Review Board's report and I

[00:35:34] I believe him when he says we want to he's Microsoft's president he wants we want to turn this around but getting back to the original topic of AI this is this is a prop this this

[00:35:48] just engenders more trust issues yeah do you think business Daniel do you think business trusts Microsoft yeah you know it's kind of like interesting at least watching from this AI PC

[00:36:00] stuff um you know I talk a lot with the companies as well some of the ISVs they're so going hard in on this I think because they've they just see the productivity uh you know increases that it's going

[00:36:13] to be gained from this technology uh almost as an all cost it's like totally fine but they're embracing both these new arm PCs as well as this AI stuff really really hardcore I mean I know

[00:36:28] you know coming up in July some OEMs are going to be doing a lot more on AI with IS uh ISVs and Lenovo's got still big plans coming like they really are kind of going all in this they are

[00:36:40] going all in with Copilot uh I think they're upset with the way things have been handled so far publicly with Microsoft but I don't think their resolve is shaken mostly because of like your

[00:36:52] company like Lenovo or HP you've been dealing with Microsoft shenanigans for a very long time uh you you know these are the same companies that all signed on to Windows 8 released a bunch of

[00:37:02] new hardware for Windows 8 and then watch it completely get destroyed right so I think they're kind of you know used to this stuff and they see long term that what they're doing is on the right

[00:37:15] track and it gives them an opportunity uh for this new technology too because what you're going to see are a lot of these OEMs innovate around AI in their own ways to give add value to their own

[00:37:27] brands uh and they're going to do that through Microsoft. Yeah so the PC market yeah so far didn't the PC market kind of need something like this you think Daniel like it's sort of like

[00:37:37] starting a college club right like Intel was like hey AI PCs want to join the AI PC club and there's it was pretty quiet it was like a pretty not too many people kind of joining then Microsoft

[00:37:47] hey guys Copilot plus PC it's better than AI PC everyone's like oh yeah we're gonna build we're around this stuff yeah I think I think all of these companies have said to themselves look

[00:38:00] consumers are very interested in AI this could be the next big thing it's unknown still whether it is the next big thing but we better be there in case it is and I think every company Apple,

[00:38:11] Microsoft, Google, Amazon all the big tech companies are jumping on this bandwagon and all I have to do is look at Nvidia's yeah stock stock rise and say yeah the market believes in

[00:38:23] it too there's money to be made here I will end this conversation with just a referral a reference to Cory Doctorow's piece in his pluralistic blog Microsoft pinky swears that this time they'll make

[00:38:37] security a priority if you enjoy Cory's acid wit you will very much enjoy this story you might not if you're uh if you live in Redmond however all right we're taking a little break we have much

[00:38:49] more to talk about got a great panel to do it our father's day panel with father Robert Balancer the digital Jesuit his new app Jesuit pilgrimage is a Jesuit pilgrimage dot app who's that for

[00:39:02] dot app uh so if you are doing any of the Ignatian pilgrimages through Spain, France, or Rome or if you're visiting Rome and you actually just want to see some of the interesting Jesuit sites that's

[00:39:15] basically why we created that app it started as just something that we talked about over glasses of grappa and then at some point oh that explains a lot code this right yeah a grappa inspired

[00:39:28] journey and we've been adding more and more languages I think now we have English, Spanish, Italian, French, Vietnamese, German, Polish, working on Mandarin, Korean, our users have wanted more so we just keep adding that's really uh that's very cool next time I'm in Rome I will definitely

[00:39:50] pull it up Jesuit pilgrimage dot app also with us Daniel Rubino editor-in-chief Windows Central it's a busy time for Windows Central lots to talk about I'm sure yeah yeah oh yeah yeah it's

[00:40:03] scouting times and uh and your reviews of some of these Copilot Pus PCs will be uh Tuesday some of them will be yes yeah some of them Tuesday will be a little bit later Tuesday's uh the 18th is

[00:40:18] ostensibly the day that these arrive you know what I actually want I want the uh dev kit the Snapdragon X dev kit I've got on the list have you seen you probably can't say anything so

[00:40:29] I'm not gonna ask any more questions I don't I don't have one I don't have I really want but yeah we'll probably get our hands on it eventually but yeah it's a really cool looking mini PC

[00:40:39] running there good price and to you and hardware yep yeah a great way to kind of try all this stuff out uh also uh with us it's always wonderful to have Devinder Hardwar who has his his feet in both

[00:40:52] camps as it were and and and his Kirby on his shirt my Kirby and all my Nintendo stuff yeah can I ask you um a really dumb question sure who's Kirby who's Kirby even I know Leo Kirby's awesome

[00:41:16] you play in Smash Brothers if you like being cheap that's who in Nintendo so he was an NES character but in Nintendo lore I think he is he's literally a god

[00:41:26] because he was the one who saved everybody when uh when the great evil came in the last Smash Brothers so Kirby's great love him so he's basically my spirit animal he's basically a pink

[00:41:35] blob that is in many everything in many many Nintendo games is that correct has his own game he absorbs powers if he eats if he eats something he absorbs the power of that thing it's a great

[00:41:47] character love it I have a switch obsessed with him yeah but it's not just for kids I mean I think you are all adults as far as I could tell and you you seem to all be in the Kirby camp so it's

[00:42:00] the only IP I like by Nintendo I do have a switch but yeah Kirby's awesome man like those are so the most fun platforms I have just because I don't know it's hilarious how he inhales people and then

[00:42:12] spits them back out and it's just kind of nightmare fuel if you really think about it but but yeah it's fun to play them but it's cute you should play the which one anyone on switch the return of dreamland

[00:42:23] I think it's kingdom oh not return to dreamland kingdom not return to dreamland the latest one that came out on switch forgotten land I think you enjoyed Kirby in the forgotten land

[00:42:32] all right I'm gonna download it on my switch and I will be with the Kirby's I feel so left out I feel well I guess I'm old that's all there is to it I never you know Nintendo was after my

[00:42:44] generation I had a Sega Genesis I had Atari but I don't somehow I missed the NES and the Mario and that whole thing I think I'm just I'm just a little too old for that anyway it's good to have young

[00:42:58] people on the show to remind me of what what it's like our show today brought to you by Zip Recruiter we've all heard the famous Abraham Lincoln quote good things come to those who wait actually I've

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[00:44:41] to hire it was Abe Lincoln didn't didn't he who said never trust anything you hear on the internet I think he said that maybe I may be wrong I may be wrong uh oh let's see so this was interesting

[00:44:58] too Daniel maybe you can clarify this I don't think it was ever formally announced but we I was always under the impression I know that uh Paul Theriot and Richard Campbell were under the impression that Qualcomm had an exclusive on Windows of some kind right Reuters seems to

[00:45:17] have confirmed that they now have a story that says Qualcomm's exclusivity is expiring and that means a lot of other companies are going to start doing arm personal computers for Windows yes this is late next year after Qualcomm's exclusive deal

[00:45:37] to supply chips for laptops expires is that accurate yeah that's what we're hearing uh that rumor has been going around for a couple years now uh and it did line up with 2025 that

[00:45:50] was what we heard back then and now Reuters seems to be confirming that uh it's interesting I don't know where we go from here so to set the you know the field you have MediaTek and MediaTek you know

[00:46:05] works very closely with arm uh the company that designs the chips now arm currently doesn't have any chip designs that could compete with Apple which is why as we discussed earlier Qualcomm

[00:46:19] bought Nuvia to get away from arm as an alternative and remember MediaTek sued those app former Apple employees who went to Nuvia they I think they eventually dropped the lawsuit but they claimed they had taken Apple proprietary information with them that their skill set you know but they're

[00:46:34] basically they're poaching but basically a lot of the people went to Nuvia came from Apple but basically it gave Qualcomm parity or at least that's the expectation in fact in fact I forgot the gentleman's name but the lead designer used to work for arm limited too

[00:46:49] uh so he has a real huge pedigree in terms of arms so he worked at arm design those chips and he went to go work for Apple and design their chip so he really uh you know that's why Qualcomm's

[00:47:00] doing so well Gerard Williams who Apple did sue eventually last year they abandoned uh that lawsuit I'm not sure why but they had sued him for breach of contract yeah they weren't they

[00:47:13] weren't happy about that at all but you know so MediaTek is going to rely on arm here and I don't know the good news is that they could come in where Qualcomm isn't right now which is the really

[00:47:25] more low-end market for these PCs that said Qualcomm could easily just scale down these chips right so they're already at 10 core there's no reason why they can't go down to an 8 core chip

[00:47:34] or even a 6 core to then lower its price but what MediaTek's going to have to do they're going to rely on arms chips which is what Qualcomm has been doing up until now so I don't know that doesn't

[00:47:45] seem like a real winning formula to me because we're going to get back to the chips are okay but they're not amazing right aren't Nvidia and AMD also doing this there I mean MediaTek is

[00:47:57] not known for high-powered chips it'd be more phone chips I imagine um yeah yeah and so but that's what they apparently want to do uh Nvidia is definitely way more interesting they actually

[00:48:08] have a long history with arm they made the first cortex processors used in windows rt devices back in the day oh and now of course they're yeah yeah Tegra you know all that you know what I still have

[00:48:22] a I love it an Nvidia shield with uh the is it the x1 with one of their and it's great it's amazing it's a great processor even though it's like five years old now it's pretty old

[00:48:34] yeah but you know you know Nvidia is a very different company today right and so you take their GPU abilities I think they're getting a little envious of the handheld gaming

[00:48:44] market that they don't have quite any uh play you know play in that right now well the switch is powered by Tegra so that's something right right yeah so they do have at least that uh

[00:48:55] but now you know they look at the pc stuff and they're like oh we can play there too so I think they are way more interesting I think they could attack the pc market from the high end

[00:49:04] which is something when you talk to Qualcomm right now they admit they're not really going after they're saying we're sticking with thin and lights and convertibles that kind of stuff but they're not going after gaming PCs 15 inch workstation 17 inch laptops I think they know

[00:49:20] Nvidia is going to probably come in from that end and I think they could be successful because I think as good as Nvidia will be they won't be as efficient as whatever Nubia and these Orion

[00:49:30] chips are going to be like so you have that then AMD yeah AMD needs to do something I don't know what they're they're doing well in the desktop market they're doing well in the server market

[00:49:43] and they have a lot of play there when it comes to laptops though I don't know where they're going everybody heard the same rumor uh here at Taipei which was their new um their new high-end laptop

[00:49:56] chip costs more than Intel's uh strict point which was weird I don't know why we were hearing that though and it's a weird thing to hear an AMD chip is more expensive than Intel I don't know how

[00:50:08] the PC market has two vendors running x86 when you have Intel who has so much more uh market dominance and they offer so much more to OEMs than AMD does I don't see how in the laptop market

[00:50:21] AMD competes unless they do something dramatic and team up with AMD oh sorry with Nvidia and do something with ARM um because I think Intel's new chips with Lunar Lake won't be as powerful or won't

[00:50:34] be as competitive um with Qualcomm's but it's going to narrow the gap enough that they're going to be really good chips too so I don't know where this leaves AMD though this I guess there's multiple

[00:50:46] levels to this conversation too because AMD's new chips which will support Copilot Plus PCs are coming soon they're coming in July and the Lunar Lake stuff Intel's like I don't know

[00:50:55] sometime in the fall uh maybe we hope so so Intel has been like delayed quite a bit compared to what AMD's been doing like AMD's put MPUs and laptop chips you know in their systems for a while too

[00:51:07] and weren't calling out AI PCs also a whole part of this is has Microsoft actually made the Windows on ARM experience any good and when I was in Redmond like I spent a lot of time basically just

[00:51:17] drilling Microsoft like guys I cannot trust you I cannot trust that you actually made this emulator better uh you know made app compatibility better the things that really killed the Surface Pro 9 5G

[00:51:29] and really every ARM based Windows PC I've ever tested um it's been a disaster so they're kind of promising us a miracle and especially after recall I don't know what I can believe at this

[00:51:39] point I'm not alone though I think consumers and it's not AI but I think they want the benefits of Apple Silicon in terms of battery life heat you know fans thin light uh I think Windows on ARM if

[00:51:53] they can if they can get it right and can compete with Apple I mean that's really what they're saying is we have MacBook Airs but they run Windows isn't it took four years to get there four years after

[00:52:03] the M1 MacBook Air right now so right yeah but yeah I believe it just given the timeline but man Microsoft really screwed us on like Windows on ARM experiences like they kept pushing

[00:52:14] it on us to the point where I was asking them like I know this computer isn't as fast as the other Surface Pro 9. Oh they were just oh they were awful they were just awful about it plus the software

[00:52:26] wasn't ready I mean they even some of the Microsoft's you know built-in apps weren't native but that's a disaster everybody says that's all changed isn't it hasn't it Daniel I mean

[00:52:37] when I run Windows on ARM on my Mac it runs quite nicely under parallels I like it yeah no it runs really well now you know part of their problem has always been the fact that they said

[00:52:47] they would support ARM not replace with ARM so like Apple's like we're replacing with ARM we're going to get rid of all our Intel stuff we're switching over developers you need all get on board because

[00:52:58] that's the next thing right Microsoft said no we're going to support ARM and so they knew it was gonna be this long journey there and Qualcomm as I mentioned earlier was beholden to ARM

[00:53:09] limited on their chip designs to come up with something that could compete with Apple and so far they haven't right luckily Qualcomm did this Nubia thing and I think that's why I will say this

[00:53:20] is this shift right now with ARM I've never seen this many OEMs on board this enthusiastic I'm seeing enterprise mostly small business small to medium businesses really on board with it it really feels different I mean Slack just this week announced that their app is now ARM compatible

[00:53:39] it's like you have you know Slack you have Chrome like these were apps that they could have done this years ago and now they're all doing it right before the 18th which I think is super telling so

[00:53:50] I think it's gonna be a big difference I think the the you only it's going to really hold back these devices and I don't think it's a real argument is gaming you know Qualcomm is kind of

[00:54:00] where Intel is right now with its ARC GPUs where it has a platform it's developing it they're releasing drivers constantly and improving things but it's going to take them a while to get there

[00:54:12] Qualcomm already promised that they're going to do monthly updates for the GPU and they got to constantly build it up but it's going to take them time so if you want to buy this to game you know

[00:54:23] that's probably not ideal but then again I could say the same thing about Macs right so yeah and there are other ways around this but I think the GPU performance is going to be one of those things

[00:54:32] where it's going to it's going to take a month before that gets to really where they want it where does this leave Intel are they are they history no I think Lunar Lake is actually looking

[00:54:45] really promising and listen you know you know Intel's been hitting their marks they said uh was it five years four nodes they're building fabs like they're you know every year they're hitting a cadence with a new chip and they're switching architectures Lunar Lake is a significant

[00:55:02] shift from Meteor Lake and Meteor Lake was already a significant shift from the previous generation like they're doing I've seen way more innovation from Intel than I am for AMD in this market interesting and Lunar Lake and Lunar Lake should definitely be more efficient now I don't think

[00:55:16] it's going to be ARM efficient but there was an interesting paper I retweeted it was from an analyst talking about this discussion between x86 and ARM64 you know like the belief is ARM is inherently more efficient because it's a risk design but there's a lot of disagreement about

[00:55:35] that saying no that's not actually the case there's actually no fundamental difference between the two it's just historically the way they've been developed has led them down kind of different paths but Intel I think they're doing some really good stuff I think Lunar Lake is going

[00:55:48] to surprise people uh DevJer was making the the point about the release yeah so it wasn't scheduled to it was supposed to come out in limited release by the end of the year that was always their goal

[00:55:58] they've been very public about that and then you only see mass production in 2025 that's been shifted now now they're trying to get some out the door by September with more production by the end

[00:56:08] of the year that's because they're feeling the pressure from Qualcomm there was a lot of counter programming by Intel at and Taipei at Computex to sort of like be like oh we're doing all this

[00:56:18] stuff too and our NPU is going to be as powerful if not more powerful than what Qualcomm has like I said I don't think it's going to be the same I think Qualcomm's going to have the edge here for

[00:56:29] efficiency maybe even at least some performance but Intel's chips are going to be you know I've always mentioned this in laptops if you if you can get 18 hours of real world battery life and another laptop gets 16 hours of real world battery life like is that a substantial difference

[00:56:43] anymore just get all right now between six all day that's all I need yeah if we're talking five hours and 12 hours like that that's that makes a difference you know so there's a point of the

[00:56:53] mission returns on this stuff uh and I think you're right right all all Microsoft needs to do with Qualcomm is get to the point of like we're as good if not better than Apple's M3 where it's

[00:57:04] at today and I think for a gen 1 that's really impressive and like good enough it's got a frost apple just a little bit though that all these companies are succeeding because they're basically following in Apple's footsteps father Robert explain to me CISC risk uh efficiency cores

[00:57:23] performance cores how has I know you you pay attention to this the world of processors has changed dramatically over the last few years oh yeah I mean come on the CISC versus risk debate

[00:57:36] goes back to when I was a kid uh when the very early days of fighting it out in the uh in the uh the chip market of either you do reduced instruction sets much faster or you do complex

[00:57:49] instruction sets more slowly but you can do more at the same time now when you look at modern architecture and and the pedals are dead on on this one the difference between what we used to be

[00:58:01] consider risk and what we used to consider CISC is almost non-existent anymore yeah it's it's completely blurred there's no chip on the market that you can say oh that's definitely a risk infrastructure or that's definitely a CISC uh infrastructure especially when you start

[00:58:17] integrating things like NPUs and you start adding GPUs which are very very interesting I want to call them risk architecture type chips that are doing a very specific instruction set

[00:58:32] so to try to say that it comes down to architecture I think is it's a non-starter what it does come down to is efficiency how well do you move instructions into your buffer how well do you

[00:58:43] pull them out and push them into the bus how how power efficient are you per cycle per instruction that you process and that's where uh Apple hit the sweet spot there's a lot of people who look at

[00:58:54] Apple's architecture their their M1 through 3 and they say oh they they created something that didn't exist before that's not the case remember they took the arm architecture they took those

[00:59:05] arm engineers and they created something so for them to cry foul and say no no one else can do that that's just I don't think that's happening I don't think that's no I'm I'm saying it I was

[00:59:16] saying maybe in their hearts are going your guys are just copying us but no it's a good point this it's a good point yeah yeah it's a great thing I just want to say like we're talking about this

[00:59:24] back and forth but we want these companies to like be pointing guns at each other and be like we gotta make our stuff better because uh there we want them to be sweating bullets so we get the

[00:59:33] hard I want them to get better though not by copying each other I want them to innovate in their own way so that we have real competition if everybody just says you've just opened a whole

[00:59:42] can of worms Leo I don't know Intel just added on board memory to the to lunar light right just like Apple has done so it's like but what what is innovation what is copying like where where do

[00:59:52] the lines blur at least right now it doesn't seem like people are directly copying except for the whole on-board memory thing but I want that competition if you find a truly better way

[01:00:01] it would make sense that others would copy it because that's the best way to do it that's evolution yeah and and and so then and then at that point you could differentiate on top of

[01:00:11] the basic innovation it is really interesting that you're seeing NPUs everywhere now that you're seeing performance cores and an efficiency course everywhere now you're seeing on chip Apple calls it unified memory I don't know what Intel calls it is it is it the same thing

[01:00:26] it's basically on chip yeah on the package yeah um although I have to say uh a monoculture isn't always a good thing Intel at one point uh I think was this is the Israeli uh Intel uh uh pirate venture discovered that speculative execution could make a huge performance

[01:00:48] improvement but now Intel is is deeply regretting that and everybody else did the same thing by the way Arm also did speculative execution and as a result they're all being bit by these

[01:01:00] Spectre meltdown style uh bugs I mean it happens like Meteor Lake I had a design element that made that run a little too hot I believe Intel's like backing away from that hyper threading they're

[01:01:12] not they're not doing hyper threading anymore but you know yeah they stopped hyper threading they said hyper threading is inefficient I don't that was like the big thing it was a big thing

[01:01:23] like 20 years ago I remember when I came out and yeah I remember going to my task manager being so happy I saw more cores whoa double the cores so we're gonna see there there's this

[01:01:36] there's this weird feeling I get sometimes that we're bolting on innovation to dying architecture that well actually I think that's for sure true right right right but I mean it's sort of like

[01:01:47] okay if we were to wipe everything out what would we create both hardware and software what kind of architecture do we think would be most efficient for the type of computing that we do today

[01:01:57] and Apple has a much cleaner start but then they also have the ability to change everything at once that's Apple right they're willing to cut off legacy and that's what Microsoft has never

[01:02:07] been willing to do and and they couldn't do it I mean if they tried to do that they'd be crucified right and rightfully so it's their business is absolutely in their business they're right

[01:02:16] to say you know if there's if there's a guy selling chipotles in New Delhi that's running an x86 pc on Windows 7 we're gonna make damn sure that his machine continues to work I think that's

[01:02:30] superpower yeah yeah that's their superpower it's also their Achilles heel um and Apple because they're a tiny fraction of the market is willing to just every few years just say yeah sorry guys

[01:02:43] your machine's no longer gonna run um it's a fascinating world we live in so June 18th supposedly you you went to Computex Daniel yeah so you saw all those new PCs June 18th Samsung Acer Asus Lenovo HP all are gonna ship Dell these new copilot plus PCs

[01:03:10] this week yes give or take I think some of the dells might be a couple days behind but yeah I mean that's the goal everything should be coming out and look what they're saying 18 hours

[01:03:19] 26 hours 22 hours battery life I mean amazing battery life 27 hours um we don't know I seen yeah the numbers I saw from one OEM and I don't have reason to doubt them right of course we

[01:03:37] got to test it and back up but like they were very explicit in their testing how they did it because they want us to repeat it that's the reason why they're doing that right they showed

[01:03:46] compared to Apple's M3 and the MacBook Pro 14 inch and there was no doubt going by their numbers the efficiency gains that Qualcomm has over Apple it is in other words a much more efficient chip

[01:03:58] because this laptop definitely got more battery life in hours even though its battery was significantly smaller than what you find in the MacBook so I think it's gonna be really good I

[01:04:10] think there's a little bit of confusion that will happen and I'll predict this right now which is you're going to see benchmarks a little bit all over the place because technically there are four

[01:04:19] chips there's the x elite and everybody knows the x plus but within the x elite there's actually three skews and the x plus is just one by here there's at least another one coming um are they

[01:04:31] bins are they all just binned versions of the same chip probably yeah so it's the x elites are going to be 12 core but they can vary the lowest skew of it doesn't have turbo and it doesn't peak

[01:04:45] as high in terms of speed uh also its gpu is less powerful so it's 12 core um 3.4 gigahertz no dual core boost and a 3.8 point 3.8 tele tele p flops for the gpu but the highest goes to 3.8 gigahertz

[01:05:03] with a boost to 4.2 gigahertz it has a 4.6 teraflop uh gpu so you're going to see and then oems within that chip can then choose different tdp levels for the power drop I've seen some as

[01:05:18] low as 18 watts on well I would consider most mainstream laptops you'll see will be around the 18 to 20 watt range but some can go as high as 45 watts so the issue is vivid book

[01:05:28] vivid book is supposed to be 45 watt even though they're using a lower tier chip so you're going to see benchmarks a little bit all over the place and it's important to interpret that because it's

[01:05:38] going to be uh but I think they'll all be as fast as the macbook uh air m3 you know at least that speed which which is an older system now based on an older chip too so it's like yes if you're

[01:05:52] releasing something soon qualcomm it better be faster than when apple showed off you know this is a four nanometer process they're made by uh yes we think they're made by samsung we don't know

[01:06:03] who probably probably you know i don't know well they've actually actually uh cristiano said that they're one of the few very openly about that they dual source their chips from tsmc and samsung but

[01:06:15] there's not a lot of capacity from tsmc because apple buys up all the tsmc chips those are the three nanometer uh node apple i think looking in the rear view mirror saying oh crap and has

[01:06:28] jumped to m4 a new three nanometer node that is better apparently um so a lot of this is yeah basically measuring yourself against apple's previous generation or soon to be previous

[01:06:42] generation the only m4 right now is an ipad so it's not comparable but it's kind of if they can match the m3 that's still that's fine i'll still take i spent a lot of money on m3 max laptop which

[01:06:55] i'm feeling like maybe i shouldn't have done that i thought that was gonna be ones are totally fine with m1 yeah i think the problem with apple and i said the problem with apple it's not really a

[01:07:06] problem but like i think people were expecting each generation of the m series to be a substantial jump in performance and it's not even the no jump between the m2 and m3 only resulted around i

[01:07:19] think it was a 10 to 15 performance gain in cpu power which is fine but that's like intel stuff right that's like it's not doubling or tripling which they had done when they went from intel to

[01:07:30] yeah apple silicon and the chips are so they can either clock the chips higher again like what intel does and then you're going to reduce you know get more heat and then you're going to reduce

[01:07:39] battery life or you got to shrink the node again but then the node you know that that's not easy and you're dependent upon tsmc to be able to manufacture that i will say what apple's been

[01:07:51] doing really well and is the fact that they've been focusing on their gpu and making their gpu much more powerful and so that's the route that they're going down now i think actually qualcomm is going

[01:07:59] to follow this same pattern actually i think we'll see a significant jump with gen 2 for uh the snap dragon x elite but then i think you're going to really start to see them focus on their gpu

[01:08:09] performance and try to get that because right now they even admit their gpu it's there uh they're happy to do things with it but their real focus was efficiency and performance and trying to match

[01:08:21] what's out there uh and i but you know i don't think we're going to see like the m4 you know i don't feel like oh great you know qualcomm's out but now the m4 is coming out but like i don't

[01:08:29] think the m4 is going to be this like game-changing performance jump i think if anything their gpu might be better and that'll be the interesting story and their npu is finally going to get up

[01:08:39] to what 38 tops i believe is the rumor uh which still behind qualcomm but it's a big jump from where i believe i think they're at 18 tops right now so uh they'll have a lot more power there but

[01:08:49] that gets back into the apple intelligence and what devices it can run on right because now you're getting to that issue where oh turns out a lot of the older hardware can't run this stuff no they're

[01:08:59] requiring a problem the new iphone the iphone 15 or later although i did see pro too i think pro that's right i did see the difference between pro and non-pro is ram and i did see people say

[01:09:13] that's the 16 gigs ram versus 8 gigs ram you need a lot more ram as well also the plain iphone 15 runs the older chip not the not the new one so that's the whole thing yeah i you know we pay

[01:09:24] attention to all these details we're geeks i don't think real people what are they looking for i don't what do they do they even care what tops device does or any of that oh that's why apple is like

[01:09:37] smart see your computer yeah apple is smart to focus on functions as opposed to any of the rest of it precisely and they blew me i have to say they blew me away and i cannot wait

[01:09:48] to get my hands on the new calculator i was wondering when someone was going to bring that they were very good one note done that forever uh doing that for years not that not that what

[01:10:03] the ability just to write out equation to convert them they but it's like a spreadsheet you write out an equation it produces the answer in your handwriting and if you change a number in the

[01:10:12] equation it updates the result like a spreadsheet that's pretty impressive i don't know about the updating part i don't think one note does that they have handwriting but well okay but it solves

[01:10:24] problems it solves problems for you right yeah again you know even explain the steps or even explain the steps of how it got there this is all marketing until we actually get our hands on the

[01:10:34] thing but uh i like the co-creator stuff that's i know i think apple's doing this too but microsoft has it where you can um draw something and then tell the ai what you want it to be yeah yeah and

[01:10:47] then the ai will draw it for you and you can control like i think that i think it's gonna be a little rough out the gate but you know for people who can't draw it but want to create images

[01:10:56] for either presentations or their own artwork i think that's super cool actually well and even take it to the next step because you can draw it you could draw a web page and not only will it

[01:11:06] create the image it'll make create the functionality and and make it real uh that's an open ai feature that's pretty darn impressive i have to say we've been using that a lot over here uh for icons like

[01:11:19] religious icons to make copyright free versions of icons yeah where we can sketch out what we think it should look like and then we'll we'll ask co-pilot to give us 10 different versions

[01:11:31] of this place you know what's nice is when the muslims take over they could just erase the faces in software it'll be so much easier i'm kidding i'm kidding i'm joking please don't start a holy

[01:11:42] war on them what are you doing no i remember going to the hagia sophia and there's these it was it's gone through several it's a it's a mosque now but it was a it was a cathedral for a while and they

[01:11:54] and they because they're not allowed in the mosque to have faces human faces they took the icons and they scratched the it's different kind of icon though scratch the faces out so that we're

[01:12:03] faceless i mean this is history it's just fascinating to me but anyway let's take a break we're going to come back and talk about more while the religious war rages around our heads uh sorry father have you ever heard this before forgive me father um

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[01:15:04] week in tech great panel here Devinder Hardwar from Engadget senior editor Kirby Fan now i know what that is uh great to have you also on father's day happy father's day Daniel Rubino who dog the dog father editor-in-chief of windows central and the actual father padre

[01:15:24] sj father Robert Balaserre the digital Jesuit Jesuit pilgrimage.app is his latest thing all right so we've talked about Microsoft we talked about Apple oh there is some bad news for Apple by the way just came out in the financial times yesterday apparently according to three

[01:15:45] people in the know Brussels is about to call Apple to the mat Apple you may remember under the digital marketing act changed the way its app store worked according to the financial times the

[01:16:00] EU has determined Apple is not complying with obligations to allow app developers to steer users to officers outside to offers outside its app store without imposing fees upon them this will be the first charges brought against a tech company under the DMA meta apparently is next Apple uh

[01:16:21] meta and then maybe alphabet they're still under investigation you may remember that Apple's solution let's do okay you can have your own app store we're still going to charge you 27 percent uh and and they really it was they they were malicious compliancing it drag in their heels

[01:16:41] uh regulators though have only made preliminary findings Apple still has a chance to correct its practices but we kind of saw this coming didn't we Apple was doing the minimum to see what

[01:16:52] they could get away with any thoughts I mean we saw this back back go ahead back during Epic Games the Epic Games saga with Apple yeah they did the least they could do we knew yeah exactly and

[01:17:06] we all looked at that and we realized yeah you're right you are a gatekeeper and as a gatekeeper you have an obligation to make sure that all of your publishers aren't penalized for publishing on

[01:17:18] your platform and that's essentially what the DMA is trying to do is trying to say look we will grant you a functional monopoly however you can't use the power of that functional monopoly to further

[01:17:29] expand the monopoly um it's over here the press that is getting on this side of the pond is yeah this is this is a government that is rightfully taking a big tech go get them to go get mad yeah

[01:17:41] for acting in bad faith Apple introduced this core technology fee which is 50 cents per user on developers with apps that have more than a million users for every first installment by user Apple also charged an additional three percent fee to app developers that use its payment

[01:17:57] processors they did cut the fee from 30 to 17 for digital goods and services paid but the EU is apparently the commission has apparently decided that's that's insufficient I mean certainly seeing how Apple has responded to like it seemed like every week they were kind

[01:18:18] of changing the rules for for developers in terms of what was allowed outside the app store the whole thing about them finally like being like okay uh emulators emulators can be on our

[01:18:27] app store now because they were threatened by stuff outside of the app store um all that is just like dragging Apple to some sort of like compromise it makes sense it makes sense that the EU is not happy

[01:18:39] about this yeah uh Meta of course is in trouble uh because of its so-called pay or consent model where users pay a subscription fee for an ad-free Facebook and Instagram otherwise Meta continues to collect every bit of information it can

[01:18:58] apparently the EU is not real happy about that either also the EU is expected to add a second investigation focusing on the Safari choice screen remember remember the Windows ballot the browser ballot Apple's doing that with Safari

[01:19:16] the EU is less than pleased so Microsoft is still doing that too they still do the browser well if you not the ballot but if you go to like hey I'm searching for Google Chrome you will get

[01:19:28] pop-ups in Edge saying hey you still you got a great browser right here why do you need to go to Edge they're all doing they're all doing it yeah yeah Edge they do that in the US good luck

[01:19:38] trying to download a you know Chrome you gotta go through a barrage of Edge ads um another problem this isn't Microsoft's problem but it kind of related to it VS Code which is Microsoft's free code editor that so many people use it's also open source you can

[01:19:56] use it as Visual Codium but VS Code is of you know comes from Microsoft and there is Microsoft runs an extensions market for it called the Visual Studio Code marketplace and apparently researchers showed how easy it is to put malicious software on that marketplace

[01:20:17] they uh they're one of the very popular dark themes is called Dracula you would think people would stay away from that but no they love it so three researchers create an extension to typo squat the Dracula official theme the the fake extension was called

[01:20:35] Darkula which I think is actually a good name they registered a matching domain at darkulatheme.com they became a verified publisher there it is on the VS Code marketplace it actually incorporates code from the legit Dracula theme but also includes a script that collects system information host

[01:20:56] name number of installed extensions devices to domain name in the operating system platform and then sends it to a remote server via an HTTPS post request none of this is malicious it's just to demonstrate that malicious code can be run the malicious code was not flagged by the

[01:21:14] endpoint detection and response tools VS Code is treated with leniency due to its nature as a development and testing system the Darkula became very popular it was mistakenly installed by multiple high value targets including a publicly listed company with a 483 billion dollar market cap

[01:21:37] major security companies and a national justice court network oh what is the IT within these organizations what are they doing there's there's a very easy joke here uh of course of course this is happening Microsoft doesn't know what it's like to run a successful app store

[01:21:55] like the security's not there they don't know what to do uh wow so fortunately it was just researchers but they showed how easy this was and how many people downloaded it because it's

[01:22:08] Darkula who wouldn't want Darkula wouldn't want it who wouldn't so I you know Microsoft has yet to respond bleeping computer I got this article from Lawrence Abrams great website has contacted Microsoft to ask if they plan to revisit the studio marketplaces security and introduce

[01:22:26] additional measures but has not received a response by publication time the security is like one guy in a closet what uh like betting all of them I'm sorry I'm working on solar winds I cannot be

[01:22:36] bothered this was back in June 9th I don't know if they responded since then uh okay amazing just you know what this is not just a problem with Visual Studio Code PiPy which is the the library

[01:22:50] of useful uh libraries for Python has thousands of malicious projects there I mean it's just it's a mess these supply chain attacks are very difficult to thwart apparently but you think Microsoft would would be a little better than like open source projects you know like would take a

[01:23:11] little more care I don't know but I mean would they be I mean the whole idea of having a marketplace is so that you could develop applications at record time by using snippets that other people have

[01:23:20] created well I mean there's no way to make that safe surely but certainly somebody ways to make it just anybody using the service would be like hey that looks weird and report this like it should

[01:23:30] that should happen yeah right so where does that go I mean yeah that means that you're going to be investing in people who are actually going to be reviewing this these code snippets and looking for

[01:23:40] weird send offs and weird post requests uh that's not my business and they wouldn't be good at it either the solution here is going to be AI I'm really looking forward to the uh no the idea of

[01:23:53] AI using it to sniff out it's just sophisticated machine learning to go through people's code and look for things at the very least it could just flag things so a human then could go through

[01:24:05] it and verify I think this area of security is going to be massive I've already talked about you know with email and phishing attacks phishing is like you know we used to get mad at like

[01:24:16] downloading executables through edge or you know internet explorer back in the day uh or browser helper objects right but now the real threat is phishing you just got to click a link to

[01:24:26] and enter in your information and you just gave it all to the hacker right I think you know using AI I already know companies are working on that and to and they're going to leverage these new

[01:24:36] NPUs to be able to do that so I think you know that area of AI is going to be super interesting as capacity rolls out to be able to improve uh this kind of stuff because to be fair humans

[01:24:48] not only cost a lot of money to employ they're fallible right if you if you're just hired and you're reviewing code like it's pretty easy to overlook something so oh absolutely I think

[01:24:59] this stuff will help out a lot this reminds me of something you actually brought up earlier in the episode Padre that um that certain certain projects Microsoft was doing are transparent

[01:25:07] and open like for governments to look at that is often a thing that is critiqued you know like when a company says oh yeah you go take a look at our code it's all totally safe it is almost like a false

[01:25:18] security move because no few people actually have the resources to do that or the time like so yeah you'd expect maybe the American government can go in and go look into this stuff but it's kind of

[01:25:27] like one of those things that Microsoft can say hey we're being good but also the actual you know motivation to take them up on that offer isn't always real so that's a whole other you know it's

[01:25:39] all kind of related. Daniel's right, AI could finally provide them with the resources to go through that to actually take them up on the offer of running the source code and saying okay well

[01:25:48] where are the problems going to end up I actually love that idea I've already worked with a company that has created AI honeypots for trying to stop call scammers and it works exceptionally well I was

[01:26:02] not able to tell that I was being I was in a virtual environment that did not actually exist I thought that I was penetrating a network and I was seeing all the things I should see if you're

[01:26:13] penetrating a network and it turned out that it was entirely a fantasy I mean that's actually a very cool application. Yeah well a boy can dream Kenny. I like this story I don't like it but I like

[01:26:27] it phishing attack hits LA County Public Health Agency jeopardizing 200,000 plus residents personal info you put this in here Father Robert how did they how do they do this? Okay so the first thing

[01:26:42] you have to realize is this actually happened back in February and they did not say when it stopped so this was probably a very long-running exfiltration. Did they just discover it? They just announced it but they didn't say when they discovered it

[01:27:01] slash stopped it and with that breach that's over 200,000 people's records of personal identifying information and that personal identifying information includes things like social security and name financial information health history prescription history it's bad it's and any financial information that have might may have been tied to that person

[01:27:25] through the Department of Health so this that's one of the worst breaches I've seen in a while not in terms of numbers but in terms of the type of information that was exfiltrated. As you say between it happened back in February employees received a phishing email

[01:27:41] they clicked on a link in the body of the email thinking they were accessing a legitimate message and then that's that it's not clear according to Yahoo News when officials became aware of the incursion this department spokesman did not immediately provide answers to questions this

[01:27:59] is actually from the LA Times so yeah but you know I it's so funny I'm so inured to these I don't I see them every day and I don't report on them because it's happening all the time now

[01:28:13] and it wasn't just one employee it was 53 different employees clicked oh they all clicked oh maybe they actually clicked on the link now that's really the failing of the LA County Health Department because you're supposed to do we do training with your employees

[01:28:30] so that they're aware not to click links in email 53 did it oh god but like Devendra said I mean human I mean someone in the organization is going to make that mistake wow but 53

[01:28:46] must have been well crafted that was a well-crafted phishing attack my my company sends out phishing like attempts and I fell for one the other day did you so that's it yeah and I'm pretty

[01:28:59] good at this stuff that's a walk of shame yeah yeah they used to do it wasn't even yeah it was like it was just uh it was saying someone was trying to access my accounts

[01:29:09] and if I didn't just click this link to report it ah so it wasn't it wasn't like to me that seemed like legit clicking there I got you I'm like myself I mean it goes to show you embarrassing yeah

[01:29:25] so we're so vulnerable to this but you guys were talking about like how AI could potentially help prevent security issues but I'm more worried about like what the AI tools will do against

[01:29:33] when they're actually yeah yeah being used to attack us too so like it's gonna go definitely it's yeah back and forth it'll be a back and forth between the two so the AI will click

[01:29:43] every single link that's what it's going to do so you also had this story Robert that you put in here from the register that it turns out Russia was pairing two pro-Russian residents of Ukraine

[01:29:56] to operate a sim farm attacking Ukrainian phones what is a sim farm so sim farm is just uh you've set something up so that you can have multiple actual sims either e-sims or actual sims and send

[01:30:12] out a mass of messages or a mass of whatever it is that you're trying to payload to a bunch of different numbers hoping that one or two will click on them and this sim farm was actually

[01:30:23] targeting Ukrainian soldiers now if they click the link which was sent via SMS they were the sim farm would get root access to the phone and that means anything that on the phone they would

[01:30:37] have access to that's the microphone that's the camera that's the GPS system so imagine you're trying to do a secure operation in the field and some hacker has just managed to land themselves on 15 different phones in your platoon because someone clicked the link that said uh here's a

[01:30:56] dating service or here's oh look at this video uh and it it worked it worked and this was a small one by the way they found another one that was running what 15,000 this this one was only running

[01:31:08] 600. That's a modern warfare isn't it I mean if you're uh in a war and you can convince uh the enemy soldiers to click on a link on their phone I mean there's nothing no rule it's not there's

[01:31:24] no Geneva Convention preventing that kind of cyber attack maybe there ought to be but there isn't right I mean you you should be telling your soldiers not to have phones well that's what's interesting about Ukraine in fact we've had we've had people on the show

[01:31:39] several times who said that's really what's scary about this Ukraine-Russia war is that it's it's a testing a proving ground for modern cyber warfare technologies and that including drones including drones and that this these technologies are going to seep into warfare everywhere soon

[01:32:02] you know yeah because they're so cheap and they're they're asymmetrical I can send a ten thousand dollar drone and destroy a 14 million dollar tank right I mean who's not going to do

[01:32:14] that if you're if that's your business all right let's take a little uh break I want to tell you about a business that uh is very cool I talked to them the other day in touch

[01:32:23] CX now I'm an idiot I said what's the CX stand for they said Leo customer experience I said oh I'm not really up on this enterprise stuff but I do know that companies small and large companies

[01:32:38] like ours the the relationship to your customers is everything right in touch CX knows a major goal of your company is to give your customers an excellent customer experience but how do you do

[01:32:51] that well there are some really interesting techniques and in and and the most modern are used by in touch CX I can't there's so many I can't I get you just have to go to the website

[01:33:02] and look at them they work with brands around the world they use AI they use smart automation to automate the customer experience not to automate away customer touch points but to make them better to make them more efficient to do triage for every touch point across the entire

[01:33:18] customer journey it's really an interesting technique they train your customers make it better for customer service reps make it better for customers make it better for your company to provide a great customer experience you've got to depend on a combination of talented people

[01:33:35] efficient processes and innovative technology that technology supports these people in doing their job but you but it only works when you've got the right mix of these things working together and most companies I'm sorry to say you probably one of them are dealing with

[01:33:48] outdated complex systems because times have changed that makes it hard to meet your customers needs hard to retain your customer service agents because they're frustrated they want to support your customers customer interactions have got to feel smooth for both sides for your customers

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[01:34:53] they'll create a tailored customer support strategy that includes this ai and smart automation customized specifically for your business that's in touch cx.com slash twit in touch cx.com slash twit we thank them so much for supporting this week in tech maybe you can explain this to

[01:35:16] me uh devendra because i didn't get this at all this is from reuters nokia ceo makes world's immersive phone call do you have any idea what they're talking about here we we have not reported any i was surprised by this link leo because yeah we have not

[01:35:34] reported on this as being like a major thing happening but i think it's more like whoever the nokia ceo now just like wants uh wants headlines do you think it's just a press

[01:35:44] release that got somehow got turned into a reuters dispatch we have demonstrated the future of voice calls says peca lundmark ceo of nokia which by the way as far as i know no longer makes phones

[01:35:56] hmd makes nokia branded phones but nokia doesn't they make tires nokia is just a brand now um i think this was maybe a press release i don't know the full story here but the technology does

[01:36:08] sound cool if it if it is a thing it's supposedly uh yeah they're calling immersive audio and video so like the sort of like thing you get from dolby atmos surround sound phone calls ladies

[01:36:19] and gentlemen well more like specifically like directional you know like if uh i think like maybe if like two people were sitting in front of you uh on a voice call or something like maybe

[01:36:28] you would get like the actual spatial awareness of where they were it sounds cool but i'm not gonna i'm not gonna be super excited about this at all and also it's not it's not voice calls that we

[01:36:38] want these days nobody wants to do voice calls we want to do that's true that's a good point you're innovating in last century technology well it sounds like nokia also you know yeah don't don't most phones try to cancel out any other noise other than the person

[01:36:53] who's speaking do i really want a three dimensional positioning of the car driving behind the person the the people at the next table at the starbucks i'm not sure if that's something i need maybe it's

[01:37:04] positioning like the person or something or if like you had your phone up and maybe the right direction of the audio would like follow your phone or something um this just reminds me of

[01:37:13] like my first ces and i was like maybe 2010 i think where i had steak with the folks at nokia and how blissfully unaware they were about the throw of the iphone or android or anything they're

[01:37:25] like no no we have flip phone everybody wants flip phone it's a great everybody wants nokia's and uh a couple years later they're gone they're gone so um the technology is part of the upcoming

[01:37:37] 5g advanced standard so it is in the standard uh nokia aims to get licensing opportunities which would likely take a few years to be available widely so forget i even mentioned it

[01:37:50] i'll let you know when they get here the technology we need is for when um when folks of of a certain age are taking their speakerphone calls we need that canceling information all over the audio for external i'm walking behind i mean look i'm 67

[01:38:08] but i can call her a little old lady she's probably younger than me talking like this i blame kim i blame the kardashians because they because on reality tv you use the speakerphone like that so that the camera can pick it up but for some reason it's

[01:38:21] gotten into the culture people are talking on the phone like this and you hear the localized audio yeah what the hell yeah it's uh i'm seeing it all over the place too are you yeah it's uh oh yeah yeah it's terrible i blame my generation we boomers

[01:38:38] from a user last time i visited my parents yeah the as the last time i visited my parents in uh in las vegas um my uh my mother was doing that so she had the phone on the table at a starbucks

[01:38:51] with the speakerphone on having a conversation and the people at the next table they were doing it too and then the people on the other lines of the two speakerphones actually started talking to each

[01:39:01] other wait who's that who's that oh my god airpods were invented for what the heck the other thing i'm seeing a lot more of these days is people who just play tiktok videos or youtube videos on

[01:39:14] their phone oh at last at the airport and just watch everywhere yeah stop it like we need like headphones audio yeah i will say like the usability reason for it makes sense like if you

[01:39:26] get i just have to hold up my phone not to my ear because nobody holds up phones to their ears anymore but just like talk to the person quick quick conversation i think that makes sense but

[01:39:35] we have not solved for the externalities of people using their devices like that and it sucks i think part of the mistake putting it to my ear you do because it tells people leave me alone yeah you

[01:39:45] just walk like this you don't actually talk to anybody like a normal human being i'm on a phone call also i don't know what the other person's going to say like why don't they say something

[01:39:57] really salty like that's true sorry everyone you know look if i get a phone call i'm assuming it's because someone's on fire or has been in an accident if it's not that text me yeah yeah

[01:40:09] there is that my two-year-old is now doing like pretend phone calls i'm like where did you nobody's picking up phones and holding them to your their ears anymore where did you learn that

[01:40:18] and turns out my wife is she's a bit of an oldie when it comes to tech so she still does that and she doesn't use her airpods for phone calls so that's where he's picking it up from but nobody

[01:40:25] else nobody else i see is taking phone calls like that anymore are we the harbingers of the future because we don't even do phone calls anymore i mean is that going to be in a few years people

[01:40:36] this won't be called a smartphone it'll be called something else your your data device or your hand it's your real personal phone but yeah and you'll still and you'll still say i'm gonna dial a call

[01:40:47] even though yeah there's been no dials 50 years they'd be like why do they call them smartphones anyway and it's like well back in the day i was just like how we explain words now yeah it's like

[01:40:56] we explain you know the origin of words by doing that right well back in the day the original usage of it was like oh i had no idea oh that was funny yeah they won't change before telepathy leo we still

[01:41:05] use a floppy disk icon for the save button save right yeah well it'll be around for a while is uh is it still a handset yeah it's still a handset on the iphone nobody's had one of these

[01:41:18] handsets what's that why does it look like that daddy well that's a kidney that's how much i had to pay for this what is that you know i don't you don't see phones like that anymore maybe you do it

[01:41:31] in office eventually it'll just all be facetime either facetime audio or facetime video you know and then the facetime audio calls will be rarer what a world what a world what a world we live in

[01:41:45] uh so elon musk who is really salty over open ai going all profit and all that and said you should let me run it to which opening i said but uh apparently he sued them earlier this year he's

[01:41:59] now withdrawn his lawsuit every the day before a hearing was scheduled in san francisco i think he did not want to face the judge with this but as blatantly nonsensical lawsuits since there was

[01:42:13] there was no contract no formal written agreement so it's all like well your honor he said he was he's turning into donald trump of tech like i think he's just every time he yeah something

[01:42:26] happened every time something happens he's like i want to sue them and it's just like all right then it's like the lawsuit gets dropped he loses it like he's barely he doesn't win a lot uh

[01:42:37] the open ai thing is hilarious who remembers when he called for a moratorium on ai and so we can get the safety meanwhile and then immediately he was raising money he bought a lot of hardware yeah

[01:42:48] immediately yeah i mean behind the scenes he's trying to build up his own company and it's just going in full steam ahead building ai like what happened to the dangers oh we're we're different

[01:42:58] you know it's like are you you know and him calling out safety and security for money and i'm you know with tesla it's just like and i have a model 3 like i like tesla right but my car

[01:43:09] literally has a camera on the inside looking at me that has no function it was supposed to be for the robo taxi that was going to come at any moment but like i just take it for granted that tesla is

[01:43:21] not recording me and people are like well in my car it works like you could do it through the app and i'm like yeah that's great it doesn't in mind though so like what am i supposed to do why would

[01:43:31] you want a camera recording you because the only thing that that could be used for is an insurance company saying see your honor he wasn't looking at the road it's it was supposed to be for robo

[01:43:41] taxi so that when people damaged the inside of your car you had it recorded that was the original they then converted it so that if you're doing um uh full self-driving you know which

[01:43:53] just around the corner paying attention you're dozing off you're falling asleep which is a cool thing mine doesn't do any of that probably because it doesn't have their actual hardware i don't know

[01:44:01] i'm taking their word for whatever reason but i don't know it's just weird i like you i forgive elon for all of that as long as he holds up to his word to fight uh zuckerberg in a cage match

[01:44:12] whatever happened to that right whatever yeah well remember he had to have shoulder surgery oh yeah that was right oh yeah what happened there you know again it just i might have to

[01:44:24] have shoulder shoulder surgery so we're gonna call it off for now and then like did you ever have the surgery no do you think you think like the only reason that we know this is because

[01:44:32] of twitter and stuff like alexander graham bell and thomas Edison we're gonna have a cage match too but nobody knew because there was no twitter at the time and that the only real difference the

[01:44:43] billionaires have always been nuts but we just now know it is that i mean i think like there was a lot written about the crazy things Edison yeah exactly he's dead you know it was just the medium

[01:44:54] the medium at the time was it Edison who killed the elephant or was it i can't remember who killed the elephant yeah i forgot which one but yeah it was Edison yeah Howard Hughes went out of his mind

[01:45:03] i mean come on he was wearing at the end he was wearing Kleenex boxes on his feet to keep the germs away maybe billionaires shouldn't exist because it just melts your brain or maybe musk

[01:45:12] was always like that who knows we know we may never know he made Zuckerberg look normal i mean he made Zuckerberg a human yeah we're all like you know Zucks ain't so bad anymore

[01:45:24] we're just like a hell of a position to be in in 2024. TechCrunch did have an article last month on Mark Zuckerberg's makeover midlife crisis or carefully crafted rebrand i guess both world's best therapist i think that's what it is it's like he had somebody who could really

[01:45:46] help him talk out his life's problems while also like compartmentalizing all the problems his companies have produced apparently his wife for his 40th birthday convinced him to do a series of photos this is his childhood bedroom where he learned to code and he's wearing

[01:46:05] a t-shirt that says and i only know this because i had a good classical education Cartago de Lenda Est which is the at the end of every was it whose speech was it Cicero at the

[01:46:17] end of every speech would say Carthage must be destroyed now why Mark Zuckerberg is wearing a Zuckerberg is wearing a t-shirt and by the way a very fetching gold chain that says Carthage must

[01:46:29] be destroyed well that's just an exercise we'll leave for the reader here he is in the same t-shirt in a very small room is this he says it's in bicycle and basketball with an elderly gentleman

[01:46:44] this is his dorm room it's like when they were in college they were three feet tall i don't understand what and there's a this is a hobbit what's going on and there's a lava lamp which is

[01:46:56] an on uh for some reason this is Benito that looks like an AI picture you think that's fake it's not it does but it really does it does look like one it's like very being John Malkovich like oh you're

[01:47:09] in a small room all of a sudden what is this little teeny weeny sofa that Bill Gates is sitting on in basketball shorts give the man pants yeah well they both went to Harvard remember

[01:47:21] neither graduated but and Zuckerberg really looked up to Bill Gates like Bill Gates was a big role in this case he's looking down at Bill Gates because yeah that's true tiny sofa uh this is

[01:47:32] his first office Carthage you know what they okay now I get it these aren't real they built little sets they built little sets they built little sets for this photo shoot the bedroom one looks

[01:47:45] real it could be real but first apartment with just a mattress no but it's little look at the size of the chair yeah this is his uh the childhood bedroom one oh that looks real yeah

[01:47:54] because he's a child so he's full size there's something going on creepy as hell yeah here it is office lockdown where we worked all day and night to fight off competitors again it's a diorama you can go there and it's all the same t-shirt too here's Pinocchio's

[01:48:16] pizzeria where I basically lived in college now this is his wife and his kids there's Priscilla Chan and his two children happy father's day Mark by the way this is the like what lucky kids my

[01:48:27] girls this he's showing his kids the room where he grew up with tiny furniture I don't I don't did he wear hey we're talking about it so yeah yeah yeah oh my god he looks happier he looks

[01:48:43] happier now so is he happier now is he I don't know I mean I don't know it seems like a guy that's finding control he feels centered in a way but I do think it's like it's either a combination

[01:48:57] of therapy or something but it's like he has totally like cut off all the harms and all the things people were like blaming him for or what Facebook did and it's just like focusing on life

[01:49:07] in a weird way and I find that honestly I find it a little disturbing as much as like we're talking about it being a glow up it is it's weird he's not like actively like dealing with the and then

[01:49:16] he was at a wedding in India recently where he wore an Alexander McQueen suit and followed up the following day with the luxurious organza shirt from Rahul Mishra here he is in in this in this

[01:49:32] suit do you think he's he still looks like a robot by the way uh he's smiling he's smiling never gonna go away yeah he's tanned and smiling what the hell twitter he's got he's got dragonfly

[01:49:47] suit dragonflies we need the twitter suit guy to like deconstruct all of this this is the Alexander McQueen suit oh there there is he this is him it's Mark's Derek guy if you like the shearling

[01:49:56] he's wearing you can check out the shot b3 acne and valve star jet well this is the whole thing it's a well-cut seat well cut suit from Derek guy yeah oh look at that shearling coat straight out

[01:50:09] of succession wow eating a bagel or burger or something at McDonald's burger oh yeah it's McDonald's Mickey D's okay he's a girl yeah still looks like a weird nerd we the real news is the

[01:50:27] stuff happening to the Sanford internet observatory by the way which is uh freaking heartbreaking okay let's talk about let's talk about that but first a word from our sponsor then we'll talk about it

[01:50:37] I agree it's very sad thank you for take getting us back on track for bender harder war we appreciate that's why he's the big guy at Engadget senior editor over there just a guy just the guy just

[01:50:48] the guy the big guy is Daniel Rubino editor-in-chief eic at windows central and of course father Robert Ballester who talks to the big guy daily the digital Jesuit our show today brought to you by panoptica panoptica is Cisco's cloud application security solution and it provides end-to-end

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[01:52:45] panoptica.app to learn more p-a-n-o-p-t-i-c-a panoptica.app and we thank panoptica so much for their support of this week in tech was it the panopticon was that uh ben was jeremy bentham's plan for a prison where prisoners would be observed but they didn't know when

[01:53:11] so they could be being observed at any time and they'd have no idea we all live in that well it's it's a panopticon is just an architectural design in which the control of the whatever

[01:53:23] it is the facility is part of the architecture so if you build something that's designed to observe the rest of the building that's a panopticon here is bentham's original oh no this is uh willie reveley's drawing of jerry bentham's original design you can see the prisoners had no

[01:53:43] idea if they're being observed at any time but they could be which i the idea was well that encourages good behavior which is why there's a camera on every corner of every street in america

[01:53:55] all right now let's talk about the stanford internet observatory which sad to say is no more uh its former director alex stamos was a regular on our shows very smart guy i guess the writing

[01:54:08] was on the wall when stamos uh left a few months ago but the interesting story is why stanford is closing its internet observatory it was designed to watch for misinformation in particular for

[01:54:22] attempts to affect uh elections from outside uh nations i think a very provided a very important uh information for the last two elections but just in time for the 2024 election it is

[01:54:42] being dismantled why is this such a big story to vendra first of all this can be great folks this election year is going to be um terrible no no misinformation there no one will attempt to affect

[01:54:53] this election it's gonna be fine it's uh i mean so first of all uh stanford says that the work of the sio is going to continue in in other forms is what they're saying but i i just remember seeing all the

[01:55:08] um basically all the conservative pushback against this uh this organization i believe they were sued three times and and worse in the lawsuits the names of students as well as staff were revealed were doxed uh and that's a big deal um these conservative groups alleged that the sio's

[01:55:32] researchers colluded illegally with the federal government to censor speech when in fact what they did is provided the government and platforms with information about misinformation disinformation campaigns from other nations particularly russia stanford was forced to

[01:55:47] spend millions of dollars to defend its staff according to casey newton and zoe schiffer in the platformer news newsletter i feel like that that's the reason is that it was um probably too successful at what it was trying to do and the the pushback especially big money conservative

[01:56:03] pushback was probably too much for stanford to deal with um it's a shame because i thought this was such a necessary thing you know coming basically after the 2016 elections and we have not even fully reckoned with how misinformation and disinformation shaped that whole that whole

[01:56:19] period um we're still living with kind of the outcomes of that today i'm just yeah a little terrified of what we're walking into with this election i i don't uh you know i am always trying

[01:56:30] not to be political not succeeding very well because i mean paying attention if you pay attention life is but life is politics right pay attention you might be a little political uh but let me read

[01:56:39] this paragraph from platformer in parallel to these lawsuits by the conservative groups republican house judiciary chairman jim jordan and his orwellian subcommittee on the weaponization of the federal government have subpoenaed documents at stanford and other universities selectively

[01:56:58] leaked fragments of them to friendly conservative outfits and misrepresented their contents in public statements and in an actual weaponization of government jordan's committee has included students both undergraduates and graduates in its subpoena requests publishing their names

[01:57:15] and putting them at risk of threats or worse so thank you jim jordan and the subcommittee on the weaponization of the federal government um i think in years to come this will be viewed very much like uh senator mccarthy's house un-american activities committee uh was viewed

[01:57:35] um and it's it's quite shameful the uh but the support the support for it now is also far greater than i think that was at the time yeah maybe you're right yeah i don't know it's an institution like

[01:57:46] stanford with deep pockets and with a good reason to keep doing this finally pulled out and said it's too much no more i mean what smaller group would be able to pick up the mantle from the sio

[01:57:58] and continue this work there's nothing out there well uh you remember harvard uh had a similar uh disinformation group at the berkman center which they've basically shut down um there is pressure across the board on institutions not to investigate disinformation not to investigate

[01:58:18] collusion and foreign government interference in our elections i wonder why and i wonder who that's coming from no reason no reason no reason it's just a chance yeah yeah just a coincidence

[01:58:29] it's a wild nothing to see here nothing to see here just move on uh in our in continuing to point out perfidy in all its guises t-mobile you may remember offered a lifetime price lock back in 2017 they literally said t-mobile will never change the price you pay

[01:58:51] john broadkin writing in ars technica says guess what happened next by the way every time the federal government steps in to prevent a merger as they did with t-mobile and sprint for the longest time uh as as comcast universal i mean go on and on and on

[01:59:11] in every respect these companies and every time say oh no no no this is not going to we're not gonna what we wouldn't increase prices we wouldn't fire people we wouldn't oh no no this merger is

[01:59:25] has nothing to do with that and every single time every single time it does um and there's no penalties and there's no penalty they get away with it of course yeah uh t-mobile uh now says uh well it's first of all there were some weasel words

[01:59:46] because in the faq that they published in january 2017 when they promised not to raise rates ever again what happens here's the question what happens if you do raise the price of my t-mobile one service t-mobile said well really the only guarantee is we'll pay your final month's bill

[02:00:05] if the price goes up and you decide to cancel that's it uh the uncatch fact is our commitment that only you can change what you pay and we mean it to show just how serious we are we've committed

[02:00:18] to pay your final month's recurring service charges if we were to raise prices and you choose to leave just let us know in writing within 60 days talk about like great uh marketing campaigns by the way like the whole uncarrier thing um i was covering mobile and t-mobile quite

[02:00:36] a bit like when that started that was like 2013 but uh it was all stuff that sounded great in headlines right and i don't know how much of it has actually uh survived well this is the problem

[02:00:47] the media doesn't they only cover the the headline and then after three years later when it all falls apart they don't say anything well no i mean come on the media like this is media you're reading

[02:00:58] covering this okay you're right i mean mainstream media i mean mainstream for sure you're right i mean you guys uh are i mean look the tech industry is actually getting pretty good about calling

[02:01:10] these guys on their bluff i mean tech criticism has is much stronger now than it was a decade ago too so i feel like yeah people are people are like actively looking for it it's just funny

[02:01:21] like searching for this i see a story from 2017 and gadget talking about t-mobile retiring their free data for life i've had remember that yeah started in 2012 i believe for 2013 so you know nothing is for life from a from a tech company no and be suspicious when they make

[02:01:37] offers like that and um yeah when the ceo looks too young for his age be suspicious i think this is why though people are increasingly wanting more government intervention ironically even people don't trust government with this stuff but it's just because there's like okay they'll get

[02:01:56] some bad press from this some people may switch or drop them but probably not but like i said there's no repercussions for doing it you can just kind of go out there say these things and they'll

[02:02:06] just take the hints the hits but they'll just continue going on so it's like uh you know the telecom stuff is ridiculous and especially how all the mergers have happened and you have three

[02:02:17] choices now and even mint mobile got swallowed by yeah they got purchased our sponsor mint mobile got purchased by t-mobile although thank goodness they're still offering the deals i really what how does that work with an mvno how come an mvno a mobile virtual network operator like t-mobile

[02:02:34] whether company owned or not can sell the same service for less i don't priority ah it's because they don't get priority on the network but i have never noticed a slowdown on on mobile i mean it's not right it's more a theoretical but then there's also right

[02:02:51] yeah there's also like silly stuff like when i fly delta you get free wi-fi for t-mobile but i'm on mobile but t-mobile owns mint mobile that's what happened to answering my phone number i don't get

[02:03:00] it you know so it's just like you know it's a good point so there's all those like sub i don't get the free disney plus subscription bundle i don't get that yeah so so quick quick life hack for

[02:03:11] anyone who's flying delta you don't need to be a t-mobile subscriber you just need to know someone who uses t-mobile oh and then what you get free in their phone number oh and that's it i do notice

[02:03:25] it's interesting on uh was it on jet blue you could still send text messages even if you don't sign up for the free stuff right they get yeah like you have some connectivity which is weird they're

[02:03:36] doing that more and more yeah yeah i mean i was just on a couple delta flights and it was just like hey t-mobile is giving everybody free internet and there was no like walking with

[02:03:45] your t-mobile it was just well so it was an ad and everybody got internet it wasn't bad so yeah yeah this is it feels like um we were talking earlier this is a continuation of the same thing

[02:03:56] where the billionaires can say bs and just walk away from it and the companies apparently can do the same thing it's just to say it's two sides of the same coin i'm happy to see the ftc taking a

[02:04:09] stronger hand in some things now like people are complaining that maybe they're going a little too far but uh i don't know i think all these companies we should be looking extra close at

[02:04:19] them i got in a big fight with paul thurotte because he was mad at the ftc for slowing down the activision blizzard acquisition by microsoft and that really helped all those workers at

[02:04:31] activision yeah who immediately got fired yeah yeah but i i you know i said don't knock the ftc don't knock lena khan because that's the last that's the last stand against these people

[02:04:45] no one else is stopping them yep now maybe maybe activision blizzard i mean in the long run the acquisition went through were you in favor of that daniel did you care about that i was in favor

[02:04:58] of it but like i thought her arguments like i'm all for her looking at tech and close her eye and i was okay with them looking at the case but i thought their argumentation against the

[02:05:08] acquisition was ridiculous because microsoft is although xbox is there they're they're in a distant right behind nintendo and sony and sony is still doing very very well uh and sony does a lot of stuff like getting exclusives like sony drives the whole exclusive console advantage thing and

[02:05:30] you know this wasn't going to give microsoft an unfair advantage especially since microsoft was going out of its way to make deals and say we'll give you call of duty for 10 years you know we're not going to take it off your platform like they were making these public

[02:05:45] promises and signing contracts i thought it was a little like i just thought it was one of those they thought would be an easy win publicly uh but and they were and they were isolated all the rest

[02:05:58] of the uh regulatory agencies around the world signed off on it right now it's fine it was the uk uk had some issues they wanted to offload some of the cloud stuff that was confusing because

[02:06:10] there isn't even a business in cloud gaming so to protect the non-existent business of cloud games want to pick something they just wanted to pick something but microsoft was like

[02:06:20] fine fine we'll do that too you know like so i just thought it was a weird thing i'm happy with them and not because i think you know it's like but google apple looking at their market practices

[02:06:30] i think is good too and it's not because oh it's not microsoft but uh you know apple has come into a very dominant position uh i don't necessarily even blame apple for doing what they're doing

[02:06:41] because especially with the app store stuff i understand it because iphone sales are kind of flattening out we all have iphones if anything their market share has grown especially united

[02:06:51] states but the only consistent source of revenue for them is going to be from the store and so they don't want to reduce stats because it hurts their stock like so i totally understand why but is it

[02:07:03] good for the market so this is this is the and maybe you guys can help me because this is the conundrum i deal with on the one hand i don't think it's good for companies to become that big

[02:07:12] i think that a free market only works if there's free competition that everybody's striving to produce the best product to succeed in the marketplace that's when a free market works

[02:07:22] and once a company becomes as big as almost all of our tech companies are they that that kind of breaks the whole model i don't like i don't think there's any legal grounds for saying microsoft

[02:07:34] shouldn't be able to buy activision blizzard that was a really big deal but that's a consolidation in a way that i think doesn't probably help the game community or the game industry but i don't

[02:07:46] think that they couldn't have argued that like that's the unfortunate thing yeah go ahead yeah because it's not against the law to i mean to be big is not against the law so but but on the other

[02:07:56] hand the other side of me says but unless you're of a certain size nowadays it takes hundreds of millions of dollars to do a triple-a game title yeah right you can't know there's nobody in his

[02:08:07] garage going to make a triple-a game title uh app only an apple could create a vision pro spending tens of billions of dollars over a decade to make a product nobody wants only a big company

[02:08:21] could do that um so so uh innovation in some ways innovation does require that size that scale so that's why i'm conflicted i don't know it's uh i mean that's i feel like it's multiple arguments

[02:08:36] here but specifically when it comes to the gaming industry there's a ton of consolidation like it engaged what we have been tracking like how much how layoffs have been just like going throughout

[02:08:46] the entire you know industry i believe in this year we've already surpassed the amount of layoffs that happened throughout all of 2023 and the consequence of that is that you don't see innovation in games you see sequels you see more of the same first person shooters you don't see

[02:09:03] innovative interesting games so much because these big companies can't afford it no no i think you're wrong about that leo so like i've covered games for benito gonzalez our technical producer i gotta introduce him so everybody knows who that voice from nowhere is

[02:09:16] and benito used to cover gaming right yeah i used to work for game spot as a you know as an editor anyway um what you're saying is exactly right and wrong at the same time that's my problem

[02:09:28] it's saying because you're saying that only only triple only these giant corporations can make triple-a games and that's just not true and first and also it doesn't mean that triple-a games are

[02:09:37] any better than all the other games triple-a games right now are actually quite terrible i agree but that's because it can solve no that's not because of consolidation that's because the giant companies can't take risks anymore because okay because they're giant because they're giant companies

[02:09:49] right it's the same thing in the movie industry right you you still have small art house movies but they're not many and and you have an awful lot of dc and marvel it's a very crowded market

[02:10:00] space yeah i mean i i personally i do steam i have game pass steam's incredible steam yeah game pass is great and i i do it because i there's a lot of indie games that i hear this

[02:10:11] kirby game is amazing yeah which i would play if it was on steam because nintendo don't play that nintendo is all about its own platforms but yeah i mean to the core argument here though like

[02:10:25] i personally was like really ambivalent about this deal and kind of didn't want it to go through for microsoft and activision because there is already too much consolidation that was my position yeah yeah the acquisition also means a lot of people are going to lose their jobs

[02:10:37] basically because of uh redundancies within a single organization what microsoft has shown is also they're releasing these games and immediately killing the studios producing these games too um award-winning high-selling games yeah award-winning big selling games a

[02:10:53] hi-fi rush was like one that was a small game that did really well that studio was killed even though it was super successful and microsoft executives went on and said we need to make more you know

[02:11:05] smaller games that are you know cheaper to buy and easier to make and they went ahead and killed that studio that made that same type of game so to be fair because i did i love that game that

[02:11:15] studio was amazing from what i understand it wasn't so much about the studio per se it was their location yeah so this has to do with when you consolidate i think everybody forgets too

[02:11:28] when you buy companies sometimes everybody thinks the company you're buying is a plus across the board most efficient everything right sometimes you buy a company and then you open their books

[02:11:36] and you go through things and you're like oh okay we got some issues here just like if someone bought microsoft i'm sure it would be like microsoft has some issues and and so where that studio was

[02:11:46] in terms of location and timing made it really difficult for them to organize uh games and schedules and testing with microsoft back and redmond so it was sort of the same issue with

[02:11:58] nokia i hate to say it you know based in finland they bought them and they're like all right guys you can come to seattle and you know because it just wasn't going to work with them all being

[02:12:07] in finland uh different hours and stuff so sometimes it's just a strategic decision it wasn't like a personal thing i know that's a crappy answer if you're like one a developer that worked there or

[02:12:17] two you really love the game but unfortunately these are the realities you're in one of the businesses that's ultimately like you you are an inconvenient part of this organization now bye-bye and i think

[02:12:27] that's i just think that's deeply unfair and it stinks it just like stinks so that's i don't think the gaming industry or gamers or anybody really benefited from microsoft buying this company game

[02:12:38] pass is going to benefit you know call of duty is going to be on game pass and microsoft didn't think about that before they bought this the company like they knew where they were located

[02:12:46] right did they not know where they were located they probably didn't know that's one small studio you know it was a very small part of it yeah i'm sure they saw some stuff and had some ideas but

[02:12:55] once it was acquired then they had to make some decisions and you know it's tough running a business you know like i i know a lot of our own writers are very much against all these layoffs

[02:13:04] and no one likes to see it but you know this is the system that people subscribe to right and it's just like this is what happens when you have massive corporations whether we should is a separate

[02:13:16] issue maybe they're too big well that was that's kind of the fundamental question because on the one hand obviously giant corporations are less responsive their customers less creative less innovative more protective uh less likely to take chances on the other hand it takes a lot of money

[02:13:32] a lot of capital to make this happen to make things happen especially nowadays you know look at creating an llm is not as a non-trivial process requiring huge amounts of compute um

[02:13:43] you're not gonna do that in your garage so i mean some would argue maybe we shouldn't be creating you know some of these i agree i agree with the points being made by the panel

[02:13:52] but can i play devil's advocate if if not you who how how does that work so all right i i understand i don't want people to lose their jobs especially at indie studios that are creating some incredible

[02:14:05] content i want them to be able to innovate and what they have that larger studios and larger platforms don't don't have is they have less inertia the larger you are the more that you can

[02:14:16] spend on development but it also means you move slowly in these studios are small and they can move quickly they can fail quickly and then move on but to say that nothing is gained by microsoft

[02:14:30] gobbling up a smaller studio i think reduces it too much because there is something there and that is the ecosystem of indie studios not every indie studio was going to become a microsoft not every indie studio was going to become a huge studio but what it can contribute

[02:14:45] by selling itself is value for the initial investors in that studio probably value for some of the i'm not talking about indies slash investors no we're talking about activision we're talking about activism the reason so that and bobby connick sold activision is because he didn't it was

[02:15:00] not going to be pretty oh no i i understand that but i mean we also folded in this idea that well microsoft buys small studios as well and there's there's nothing to be gained by letting it swallow

[02:15:11] up smaller studios right i think you can make a stronger argument that they shouldn't be allowed yeah yeah they shouldn't be swallowing up all of them but that's but that's where the incentive

[02:15:23] don't you draw that line that's uh and while we're yeah why would doing devil's advocate i mean the reason why microsoft wanted to buy activision is because they don't have enough strong ip that

[02:15:37] they can exclusively release on xbox to compete with sony like sony makes a lot of these in-house games they uh or they sign exclusive deals and they're really good at it now if sony didn't do

[02:15:50] that because even like nadella has come out and said like we don't like doing exclusives for our platform we wish that didn't exist so if there was this like blanket rule that you can't have

[02:16:00] exclusives to platforms which would be pretty hard to enforce and make happen but uh you know you wouldn't see you wouldn't see this happening with companies buying studios because that's what they're doing they're trying to buy these studios so like they don't make stuff exclusive to their

[02:16:17] platform as a game like call of duty but they do make it exclusive for game pass which is part of their next selling point for users and so you know if we could get away from this exclusive stuff

[02:16:30] and this battle then you wouldn't see this problem with uh companies by it because ideally these sony and xbox should just be making the hardware they shouldn't be publishers at all right but this gets

[02:16:42] into that bigger discussion of who controls let's not forget they also got uh and i think they needed this to mobile gaming uh they didn't really have a right play mobile gaming and they they got king

[02:16:52] right and that that was a more like viable like yes we we are big businesses we don't have this component in our business let's get this but microsoft certainly had a lot of like big budget

[02:17:02] studios like they've had big ip it's just they keep failing especially with this generation of consoles like halo infinite was delayed for far too long like a lot of the things that they built

[02:17:13] um you know starfield was another thing that they've been hyping up for a while kind of came and went and died so it's it's just also like a series of failures i was so excited about starfield

[02:17:23] it was so disappointing it was kind of us yeah it's too bad hey let's take a break and i want to i do want to ask you what games you guys are playing and we have some final thoughts in just

[02:17:32] a little bit you're watching this week in tech with a great panel father robert balaser who it's getting late in beautiful rome the the sun has gone down a little bit the bells are ringing the

[02:17:42] pigeons have left saint mark's square oh no that's venice never mind uh anyway it's great to have you thank you for being here i appreciate it and also with us from uh windows central he's the editor

[02:17:53] in chief daniel rubino lovely to have you when did you get back from computex not recent i hope you're over your jet lag yes i'm just kidding oh yeah i got back wednesday i got out of there as soon

[02:18:06] as i could but i love taipei it is an amazing city always wanted to go and it's just great yeah you'd love it beautiful yeah i hate getting there though yeah it's a long flight it takes me

[02:18:17] it's about 25 hours of actual travel time to get there yeah it's just that's awful it's brutal it's brutal and devinder hardware just back from the brutal trip to cupertino california

[02:18:29] i mean it was a brutal flight back because coming back from the west coast to the east coast is a pain but i miss computex that's a great i miss the i even miss the like plane trip because it was

[02:18:37] like a whole day of just like to yourself you know i always get an invitation to go as a junket by various groups and i've i feel journalistically i just can't accept it but maybe maybe i'm after

[02:18:50] after i'm out of all this i can do it because i really want to go it looks like it's so much fun uh maybe next maybe next year maybe our show today brought to you by bit warden love these guys

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[02:22:06] who i just read some uh somebody was breached because the developer put an api key on uh committed it on a git commit i'm trying to remember who that was

[02:22:19] it happens a lot right it's easy to do by accident i just i almost did that once oh i can't laugh too much right yeah but it's very there there are very simple ways to encrypt them before you do

[02:22:30] that it's just a bit warden supports the secrets like that um all right what game are you playing father robert ballester are you still doing the factorio uh a little bit but uh so i i've gotten

[02:22:43] back into the rust of survival you were a big rust guide yeah i was big for a while and they've done a lot of updates so i'm sort of just poking around but what i'm spending most of my gaming

[02:22:54] time is on a another playthrough of the entire bioshock collection i know it's all of that no kind of love that story i've done it twice i i know exactly what you mean it is such an

[02:23:04] yeah innovate there's an example of it was a trilogy and such an innovative different feeling and look and i just loved that those games they were fun to play that's fun that that was the

[02:23:18] first game i ever played where they included that sort of emotional moral choice as part of the game and i actually i could not choose the kill the sisters choice oh wow even when i wanted to i

[02:23:32] yeah couldn't do it did you throw the baseball at the guy that was no that is the most useless weapon that does not work at all that is terrible a little b thing yeah oh the

[02:23:46] the mind control ball the mind control ball there you go it's on steam i got a question real quick did you did you shoot the civilians and no russian uh no and you don't

[02:23:59] have to you can you you can just sit there and walk until the uh the you get to the end of it that's what i do what game is that call of duty there's a there's one seat like the big controversial

[02:24:10] scene where you you play a russian terrorist and you're supposed to gun down a whole airport every time i play i play call of duty it's so it's it's so hairy the minute you enter

[02:24:21] that it's like ah that's just multiplayer yeah i suppose if i were playing a campaign it would be different the same thing with fortnite like the only good thing about fortnite is you die

[02:24:32] i would die immediately but at least i could watch the game continue not good at it actually leo can i ask you a question yes thinking of your steam account your steam library how many games are in

[02:24:44] your steam library that you've never played a lot because every time you recommend a game oh no i do have a massive steam library with a lot of yeah yeah i buy stuff on sale yeah yeah yeah they go on sale i figure someday i'll play

[02:25:03] whatever i can log in i just it's a big process to log in let me see if i can do the qr code recognition because i'll show you how many games i have there was one really for me big announcement

[02:25:16] there were so there were three announcements at the apple event that i thought were undercovered one was that they're going to rcs in the fall which means that finally apple messages users will have encrypted conversations with android users they can have group conversations and they can send

[02:25:35] full quality video and audio that's huge so that was apple apple itself barely mentioned that by the way it was barely cap for ios 18 they're like oh by the way there's rcs it was in the bento box and

[02:25:46] they mentioned it it was in the end what they really didn't mention and i thought this was even bigger was you're going to be able in ios 18 to rename siri you can call her any name you can

[02:25:59] you can call her anything you want that's huge that's going to be problematic that's going to be an issue yeah seriously uh you know what this was a feature of the moto x 10 years ago

[02:26:11] and i love the moto x so yeah my my trigger on the moto x said hey goog was help me obi-wan kenobi and i thought that was really useful because no especially in public right yeah unless you're

[02:26:25] at a star wars convention then it maybe wouldn't be so good but siri gets triggered all the time easily and then the third announcement which only i noticed was that valheim which is my game is

[02:26:36] coming to mac os game yeah valheim so what's interesting about apple silicon is because essentially the iphone the ipad and the mac all run the same processors and it's very similar operating systems games will run on all three platforms they run pretty well yeah because of

[02:26:56] that gpu so assassins creed is going to be available day and date on all three as well as windows which is i thought very interesting but valheim is my personal favorite that's the one where

[02:27:07] it's like minecraft for vikings you're you're you're a viking you know leo i i have valheim we could do some co-op oh i wouldn't mind i'd like to do that with you yeah we could build a

[02:27:18] little hut together you and me yes sir your twitch channel i get killed by everything though so you yeah i streamed i know i'll protect you i streamed valheim uh for a little while on twitch yeah and

[02:27:31] it was fun i mean you know i got five followers it's not what are you playing these days daniel so i do stick to mostly indies uh and so i'm playing a game called anomaly agent which is

[02:27:48] available on steam yeah it's a uh well its description is a cyberpunk action adventure featuring fluid combat uh time bending story quirky characters and a catchy synthwave soundtrack oh it's a really funny game it's a platformer it's very interesting yeah it's a platformer

[02:28:06] it's got a real sense of humor to it it's got some weirdness to it uh it's just different i'm just such a fan of like growing up in the 80s i love the whole cyberpunk synthwave uh well

[02:28:18] yeah we're kind of going through again and by the way 8-bit platformers are very very popular rogue-like games and so forth which is good because that's the kind of thing indie studios can

[02:28:28] do you don't need a giant team yes to make this you just need some good gaming ideas some puzzle ideas things like that cool yeah it's a fun game it's it's casual you can just pick it up and play

[02:28:41] um it's just i don't know it's one of those games that'll make you smile and it's got a cool soundtrack uh so yeah i just give them a plug good good uh we keep mentioning pentiment which

[02:28:54] seems to me like something father robert should actually be playing because you're a medieval monk wandering around oh that's my day job i don't want to be that and it doesn't have a synth soundtrack it has more like a gregorian chant

[02:29:12] soundtrack so so it's the halo the halo soundtrack basically i've been waiting to buy pentamid on sale or something like that actually i was gonna say my game pass the big game yeah oh yeah so i'll try it's on sale right now for 12 dollars 40%

[02:29:28] no excuse oh big father's day sale i gotta get it there yeah the big game i'm waiting for it i'm super excited about is the new doom dark ages oh yeah that looks really really good yeah they showed

[02:29:40] that last week at the uh xbox event yeah that looks really new doom games have just been so extraordinarily good uh and it's been a while since you know doom 2 the last one came out

[02:29:55] but i've been this announcement and the where they're taking it i think it's just awesome like it's just such a creative uh direction for the character it's also the middle middle ages right you're also medieval times yeah yeah doom yeah it's got the medieval

[02:30:10] times how how great is that yeah it's just it's insanity when you watch the trailer like he has a gun that he wears on his wrist where it crushes demon skulls and then shoots the bones out man

[02:30:21] bring that to the catacombs that's all right let's do that let's rock all right did i ask you davindra what are you playing these days not yet but i i do have to

[02:30:33] say father forgive me i'm playing a lot of hades too so hades is hot we talked about this last week yeah it's fantastic i've been playing with my daughter like we basically do a little bit of

[02:30:43] game time as like story time and she's getting really into greek mythology because of it too and she enjoys watching me play it and it's a fantastic little game how old is your daughter

[02:30:53] he's five years old he's playing she's like she she wants me to explain like what's what's up with these gods why do they all hate each other that's pretty cool i've always been interested and there

[02:31:02] are actually a lot of great kids books that simplify the stories take a lot of the worst parts out or the uh the most adult aspects out um and we're reading those and she's she just digs it

[02:31:13] is it fun go ahead is it fair to call super giant an indie they're absolutely yeah that is true indie but uh and i've loved every single game that they've made too so they're fantastic

[02:31:25] and another indie thing that has gotten really popular is animal well which is a cool like i've been dying to play this you playing it's cool it's great oh i really want to play this one

[02:31:37] i just love the format of 2d side scrolling like that's what i grew up on and i love that indie studios are just kind of all it's a really easy you know format to make um i love metroidvania

[02:31:48] type games too so hades and you know this sort of thing hades is like an evolution of that with like you know different directions and whatnot but i i love 2d that is where my heart will always be

[02:31:58] again this is a individual developer this is a very one guy did everything yep the engine the music everything i believe what it shows really is despite the attention paid to engines and

[02:32:11] graphics and you know all of this that the gameplay is what really makes a game this is what i was saying about triple a games yeah they may look gorgeous but if there's no gameplay who

[02:32:20] cares but then there's baldur's gate 3 right benito well there there you go i wasn't even that into that he likes dwarf fortress talk about indie games bilateral actually do you remember do you

[02:32:32] remember cuphead yeah i had looked it was visually stunning hardest game ever it was too hard it was too hard it was hard to tell what was happening because of the animation so fast uh my our 21 year

[02:32:44] old has beaten it three times wow wow that guy's cuphead isn't that hard really isn't the cuphead super mario one even super mario one was harder than cuphead benito benito benito

[02:33:01] your ign is showing but you know yeah before we go uh i like to i don't like to but i often want to end shows by marking the passing of pioneers in the industry and a little sung but very important

[02:33:16] pioneer passed away pat this past week lynn conway she wrote the book on a very large scale integration vlsi uh taught vsli courses in 1978 but very sadly she invented the super scalar architecture at ibm

[02:33:32] was fired in 1968 after she revealed her intention to transition ibm said you what no and uh now 52 years later ibm formally apologized to her in 2020 um she despite being fired from ibm continued her research in vlsi she got the 2009 i triple e computer society pioneer award

[02:34:02] she was truly a pioneer not just in technology but also as a trans uh engineer who paved the way for many others so uh r.i.p lynn conway age of 86 um amazing story i love hearing um i mean

[02:34:23] these reminiscences of very influential people that we don't we don't really talk about we don't know about even i mean i think people know vlsi and they know how important that is still is

[02:34:34] important uh even you know in bitcoin things like that um but probably don't know the woman who created it uh who did the research who shaped the way chips are designed for 50 60 years

[02:34:50] um and and it's in a tragic story that ended up uh happy she had left uh ibm went to xerox park and then on to darpa she taught electrical engineering computer science until her

[02:35:01] retirement in 1998 um so i think yeah worth mentioning yeah glad to hear that ibm apologized also by the way for the way they've treated her but uh did ibm ever apologize for the whole nazi

[02:35:16] thing oh the nazi thing no the nazi thing you know we're just gonna let that go yeah it crows business yeah yeah that was just business although if you go to the computer history museum

[02:35:27] they have a whole section devoted to what ibm did for the for nazis in the beginning of the of the nazi era they pulled out i think when we went to war with uh germany but before that's

[02:35:41] interesting i think the most interesting recollection i've ever seen of like nazi not quite memorabilia but of the influence it had in berlin uh i believe there is a it's a it's a museum about the history of movie making i forget what it's actually called but

[02:35:57] they have a whole separate section where it's all just nazi propaganda film and it's all like locked away in a way so you can watch it but also it is very much like presented in a way like this

[02:36:09] is a dark memory that we live through as a as a country and as the city yeah so yeah ibm i don't know i would love to see something eventually because every time i'm reminded of that it is

[02:36:19] disappointing well there's another one uh volkswagen celebrating its 75th anniversary there's always volkswagen when in fact they're a little older than 75 years but they'd probably not want to remember those first 10 uh yeah yeah we're celebrating our 75th anniversary

[02:36:38] that's the anniversary of volkswagen in america uh they have a history that predates that a little bit that's all they're going to talk about that's all they're going to talk about you know what i

[02:36:46] don't really blame them that that was a different time and different people yeah i mean america didn't even join that war until that's a good point i mean come on that's a good point but

[02:36:55] let's not forget uh lynn conway uh rip there's a great picture of her later in life professor emerita of electrical engineering and computer science this is the obituary from the university of michigan engineering department where she taught for many years uh that is it for this show

[02:37:13] we got games in we got movies in we had some fun did we get any movies in what are you doing on slash film lately i saw you know i was watching uh you still do slash film right davendra i still do

[02:37:25] i will not slash well it's the film cast podcast film cast not a slash film not no longer part of slash film because it was funny because i was watching you know sometimes they have those

[02:37:35] movie yep ads blurbs the blurbs and i saw you know something like you must best see movie of the year and it was slash film and i thought oh you couldn't get the new york times in there okay

[02:37:45] fine i mean listen whenever i see those i just see friends of mine from the the film podcast or film journalism world so i always love pointing and saying we will never be there because i never

[02:37:54] feature podcasts in those blurbs but you know what uh go check out furiosa it's in theaters and i cannot believe garfield of all things killed that thing at the box office oh no furiosa is

[02:38:04] incredible i've seen it twice i hope to go back again really i haven't seen it oh you gotta go just go yeah yeah support real artistry yeah yeah i saw fury road three times in the cinema i did

[02:38:18] like 12 times on video yeah so like i'm a big fury road fan if furiosa is in some ways a better movie simply because it has like a real story to flesh out with characters in it and it's just um

[02:38:32] but it still has all the insane imagination of miller that like yeah i'm watching my best friend we just kept looking at each other like wow this is incredible how does it think of fury road is

[02:38:43] amazing just some i mean i'll never forget the guy with the flaming guitar and the truck and you know there's so many moments in that uh movie that you just never forget all right i will if he

[02:38:52] has a lot of great moments too i will i will go see uh furiosa episode 776 of the film cast uh don't listen to it until after you see the movie is that right devendra well we do a spoiler

[02:39:04] section so you can listen to half the review and we tell you when to stop um but yeah everything else we reviewed since then hitman's on netflix is incredible oh the richard linklater film yeah

[02:39:13] really sexy um that was fun we don't really see movies like that very often and i really like the newest bad boys i cannot believe that they're making bad boys movies and they're still

[02:39:23] good and fun and silly in the way like the original the first two were yeah is uh will smith in it oh will smith is in it and he gets slapped of course he gets slapped okay i'm here

[02:39:34] they know what they're doing okay that might redeem it okay that might redeem it thank you devendra devendra hardware when he's not on the film cast podcast his editor at and gadget and it's always a

[02:39:47] pleasure having you on good luck with the kirby happy father's day dad thank you i remember when you became a dad oh i mean i remember seeing stories about your kids on uh on tech tv when

[02:39:58] they were little like i had them on there were a little they're 32 and 29 now amazing henry's book is coming out it's already a bestseller it's just amazing it really is so great yeah they were this

[02:40:11] big um it happened it happens fast somebody said the days are long but the years are short remember that because it's over before you know it enjoy every freaking moment of it i'm sure you do

[02:40:23] you seem like you seem like you really are that's great thank you devendra thank you to uh dog dad and good friend it's always great to have daniel rubino on editor in chief of windows

[02:40:34] central thank you for being here daniel anything you would like to plug how about the windows central podcast yeah we do that on occasion uh it's not as regular but we're still doing it uh

[02:40:46] yeah other than that yeah pay attention to the site in terms of uh reviews are coming ipcs yeah it's gonna be a very busy summer yeah so we're uh very excited to see do these pcs live

[02:40:58] up to the hype and which one is the best one i think they're all gonna be kind of cool but surface pro 11 i'm really intrigued by because of all the smaller changes they did and will it

[02:41:08] actually last you know a day uh that's gonna be i think the most important thing um yeah and as far as uh movies you have furiosa i also say i'm watching dark matter on apple oh that's pretty

[02:41:18] i watched the first one it's interesting yeah interesting yeah yeah it's if you like you know deep sci-fi kind of stuff although that is the worst title i don't know why they

[02:41:29] called it dark it's a bad time there's nothing to do with that was a book title yeah oh was it but like they could just call it supposition yeah but um joel agerton is just he's really good

[02:41:41] i like him as an actor yeah jennifer connelly elise braga yeah great yes a great cast yeah and it's just um cool stories and that's uh really kind of keeps you guess i'm actually like

[02:41:53] they make it hard for themselves with the plot twists i'm like wow okay i didn't see that coming um but it's good it's good and our jesuit pilgrim himself father robert balaser who

[02:42:04] stayed up late just to be with us i really uh i'm grateful to you jesuit pilgrimage.app is his new app at home on a journey available on android and ios what else you want to plug father robert

[02:42:19] uh not much it's been relatively quiet over here uh just a lot of the background work for getting out content for uh the my for my big boss uh i will be doing a couple of projects i've got like

[02:42:32] three or four different irons in the in the fire right now but they're not anywhere near releasable um i i am i'm starting to discover all the things i miss about having the twit production team behind

[02:42:45] me because now i have to do everything by myself i know i know we're trying to keep the production team together that's why we have club twit we're trying to it is it is kind of a tough situation

[02:42:56] right now for uh all all media i guess i just saw i heart media facing severe bankruptcy you know they managed out to get out of chapter 11 a couple of years ago and now it's looking like chapter 22

[02:43:10] is around the corner why i mean this is the biggest radio group in the country why advertising is off it's down for everybody podcasts especially in fact for most advertisers uh the first campaign

[02:43:23] they cancel if if times are tight is the podcast budget so we're on the unfortunately on the receiving end of that which is why thank goodness we started the club a couple of years ago club

[02:43:34] twit is seven dollars a month it's not much and for that i think you get a lot you get ad-free versions of all the shows you get video from the shows that we only put out in audio including hands

[02:43:44] on windows hands on macintosh ios today the untitled linux show home theater geeks a lot of twit plus bonus content events we got the book club coming up we did that was fun we did an escape

[02:43:58] box that was really fun and of course you get access to the discord where club twit members hang not just during shows but all the time uh talking about things geeks are interested in

[02:44:08] there's a lot going on in the club twit discord get ready here come the animated gifs every time i show the discord they go wild so but the real reason it's not all of those benefits we like to

[02:44:21] give you something for your money but but but but the real reason is because that seven dollars makes the difference uh in keeping the shows going keeping our staff employed keeping the lights on

[02:44:34] we are probably uh because of a shortfall in q3 going to close the studio in a month uh and send everybody to work from home we hope to keep people employed but um the studio is a big expense so we're probably shutting that down

[02:44:49] i don't want to go backwards so so if you can help us out i'd appreciate it twit.tv slash club twit and for those of you who are members my deepest thanks it makes a huge

[02:45:00] difference in uh in our future uh so we thank you thanks father robert thanks daniel uh thanks to vindra great to have all three of you on thanks to all of you who watched the show today we do it

[02:45:13] every sunday 2 to 5 p.m pacific that's uh 2100 utc 5 to 8 p.m eastern time you can watch us we stream everything we do uh while we're doing it you can watch on youtube at twit.tv i'm sorry

[02:45:27] youtube.com slash twit slash live after the fact you go to twit.tv our website to download shows audio or video there's also a dedicated channel for most shows on youtube so you can watch the

[02:45:38] video they're a great way to share clips from a show uh if you want to tell somebody about why bit warden's so great or what show they should be watching tonight you can just clip that out on

[02:45:48] youtube and share it with them of course the best thing to do is subscribe because that way you get every podcast the minute it's available in its audio or video form uh just go to your favorite

[02:45:59] podcast player and subscribe 20 years we've been doing this i want to do it for another 20 more and with your help we can but as we say at the end of every show and i have been since 2005

[02:46:11] another twit is in the can thanks everybody bye-bye oh there's the can it's cream of mushroom tonight father robert's pulling an andy warhol thank you robert i appreciate it