Did Amazon Just Kill Hybrid Work?

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[00:00:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Welcome to Tech News Briefing.

[00:00:21] [SPEAKER_03]: It's Monday, September 23rd.

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm Zoe Thomas for The Wall Street Journal.

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Some parents want their kids' schools to ditch tablets and laptops for paper and pencils.

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_03]: We'll tell you why parents who want to opt their kids out of screens at school are meeting opposition.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And then, from the classroom to the workplace, we'll explain what Amazon's decision to

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_03]: call workers back to the office five days a week could mean for the company and the

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_03]: rest of the tech sector.

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_03]: But first, school cell phone bans are taking effect in big districts across the country,

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_03]: including Los Angeles and Las Vegas.

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_03]: For some, the next question is, what about the other screens?

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_03]: But the fight to get rid of laptops and tablets in schools isn't so easy.

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Here to tell us more is our family and tech columnist, Julie Jargen.

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Julie, for those of us who aren't in classrooms or who don't have school-age kids, how much

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_03]: of a role are screens playing in teaching these days?

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Screens are playing a huge role.

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not uncommon for kids as young as pre-K to be given iPads and other tablets.

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_00]: In middle school and higher, kids are taking their Chromebooks from class to class and

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_00]: working on them all day and then into the night as they're doing homework.

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_03]: So screens are around a lot in schools.

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Why are some parents pushing back against this?

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of parents are just feeling like it's too much and they're wondering, is this screen-based

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_00]: learning better for kids?

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Should they go back to pencil and paper?

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And so parents are now pushing for a return to the way school used to be.

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And they're asking to opt their kids out of school tech.

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_03]: What have some of the reactions from school districts been to that request?

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a pretty big ask because so much of school is screen-based these days.

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, a lot of schools just don't have workbooks or even textbooks anymore.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So how do you replace what you're offering on a screen with a pen and paper option?

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of schools have pushed back and said this is the way of the future.

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_00]: So parents are having a hard time convincing teachers and school districts to accommodate

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_00]: their opt-out requests.

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_03]: How does going screen-free in classrooms affect teachers in particular?

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it creates a lot of extra work for teachers because if most of the coursework is posted

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and completed and submitted online as well as the tests, creating a whole other set of

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_00]: materials for students who are trying to opt out of that is really a duplicate workload.

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And right now we're dealing with a teacher shortage.

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Are there any set rules in the U.S. about opting in or opting out of screens in classrooms?

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_00]: No, there's no one sort of federal law around this.

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Different states have different rules around what they're willing to let parents opt out of.

[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Then school districts don't really have a legal obligation to allow parents to opt out

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_00]: of using technology.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_03]: And so for parents who do want to opt their kids out of using screens all the time in

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_03]: classrooms, what steps do they tell you they're taking in order to get there?

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Some of these parents are actually offering to do some of the legwork themselves, to make

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_00]: photocopies of things, to find textbooks and workbooks.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_00]: It does take a dedicated parent with the time and resources to step up and do that.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Even so though, there's some parents who've offered to say I'll find the materials, I'll

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_00]: duplicate this on my part, and they're still being told no.

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Some schools argue that it creates an equity issue if you've got a whole classroom that's

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_00]: doing something on a computer.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_00]: If they're waiting for one student to go to the library and do some research, it may hold

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_00]: up the rest of the class.

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_03]: All right. That was our family and tech columnist Julie Jargon.

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Coming up, it seems like hybrid work had become the norm, especially for tech.

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Amazon just changed that.

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_03]: We'll find out how other companies are reacting to Amazon's return to office policy after

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_03]: the break.

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[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Amazon sent business leaders and workers a buzz last week when its CEO Andy Jassy announced

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_03]: that staff would need to return to the office five days a week starting early next year.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Until Jassy's memo, it may have seemed that companies, especially in the tech world, had

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_03]: accepted the reality of hybrid work.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_03]: But as the labor market has cooled, the balance of power between workers and bosses has shifted

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_03]: and company leaders have more leverage to demand in-office work.

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Here to tell us more is our Deputy Bureau Chief for Careers and Workplace, Vanessa Firmans.

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Vanessa, we've got this announcement from Amazon.

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_03]: What does the company say is the reason for this move?

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_01]: In short, it really wants to reinvigorate Amazon with some of its original startup culture,

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_01]: which Amazon was founded in the late 90s.

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's quite a long time from now.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Today, Amazon is a behemoth with over a million employees.

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Jassy, like a lot of CEOs out there, still thinks that in-office attendance is a big part of

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_01]: what drives innovation and collaboration.

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_03]: So last year, Amazon told some workers they may have to move to what the company called

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_03]: main hub locations like its headquarters in Seattle or offices in New York or San Francisco.

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_03]: What else did Amazon do to lay the groundwork for this return to the office announcement?

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, they have been toughening in-office requirements for some time.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Last year, they made the call that everyone needed to be back in the office at least three days a week.

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_01]: They did start tracking people to make sure that they weren't just swiping in for, as we say, a coffee badge.

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's unclear what the compliance was, but clearly Amazon or Jassy wasn't satisfied with that.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_03]: How are Amazon workers reacting to this news?

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_01]: From what we can see, not well.

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_01]: By and large, a lot of employees, and this goes for people outside of Amazon,

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_01]: even if they like going into the office, they like having the choice.

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_01]: But a lot of workers have since recreated their lives around being able to work from home.

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_01]: That's child care, that's family duties, that's commute time.

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Some people have moved.

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_01]: If you take a look at LinkedIn or any social media site, you will see a lot of angry reactions.

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Some employees have already declared they are looking for work elsewhere.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Some have called this tantamount to a layoff announcement since they predict that a lot of employees will leave.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_01]: The cynic take is that Amazon wants more people to leave, although Amazon is denying that.

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Do we know what other employers are making of Amazon's announcement?

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_01]: It has certainly caught a lot of attention.

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_01]: CEOs we've spoken to say they are buzzing about it.

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_01]: They're hearing from other CEOs about it.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And they're also hearing from their workforces asking,

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_01]: are we going to follow suit?

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Are we going to have to do this?

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Amazon is seen as such a bellwether for a lot of companies, including the way they set wages,

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_01]: other types of workplace policies.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_01]: We also have a poll out from KPMG, which regularly surveys US CEOs.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And the number of CEOs at this time around who said they expect in three years

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_01]: full-time office attendance was nearly 80 percent.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was only 34 percent just in April.

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's take a step back from Amazon for a second.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Tech companies really led the way in working from home during the pandemic.

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_03]: What are some of the possible challenges tech companies could face as they call workers back into the office?

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you're right.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_01]: The tech industry actually introduced some of the most liberal remote work policies.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And part of it was because so many of their tech staff worked on the coasts in high-cost cities.

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And the moment that they had the option to work somewhere else,

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_01]: many of them moved to other cities, not just to the suburbs, but to Boise, Idaho or Salt Lake City.

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's already been a lot of upheaval for some of these tech staffers who have been called back to at least three days a week.

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_01]: But in the meantime, a lot of them say five days is just too much.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, a lot of this comes down to productivity.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Are workers better off collaborating in person or having the flexibility to work remote?

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Do we have any data on who's right about this?

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, the data is really all over the place.

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Certainly when you look at the broad data and in terms of productivity,

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_01]: remote workers really don't seem to be any less productive than in-office workers.

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, there's data that suggests that they are actually more productive

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and that they spend more hours at their computers when they're at home,

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_01]: in part because they don't have those commutes.

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_01]: But there is other data that show that younger workers, more junior workers,

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_01]: people straight out of college and so forth who are really still getting the hang of corporate work life and their jobs

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and all of that really struggle with being purely remote or remote mostly

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_01]: or simply not in the same city as their manager.

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_03]: That's Vanessa Furman, Deputy Chief of our Careers and Workplace Bureau.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's it for Tech News Briefing.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Today's show was produced by Julie Chang with supervising producer Catherine Millsop

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_03]: and deputy editor Chris Zinsley.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm Zoe Thomas for The Wall Street Journal.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_03]: We'll be back this afternoon with TNB Tech Minute.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for listening.