How AI Is Helping ‘Fake Candidates’ Land Jobs

[00:00:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Welcome to Tech News Briefing, it's Thursday, September 12th.

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm Zoe Thomas for the Wall Street Journal.

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Virtual reality headsets are not just for gamers.

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Companies are turning to the immersive technology for employee training on everything from talking

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_04]: with clients to changing a truck battery.

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_04]: We'll tell you more.

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_04]: And then, for years, companies have been relying on software that automates various

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_04]: aspects of hiring.

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Now candidates are flipping the script, using artificial intelligence to tailor their

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_04]: resumes and bots to fire off applications in quick succession.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Our reporter Katie Binley will tell us what recruiters are doing to find the person with

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_04]: the right skills in a sea of applications.

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_04]: But first, virtual reality was all the rage in tech circles a few years ago, partly

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_04]: because of excitement around the metaverse, an immersive online world where people can

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_04]: interact as though they're in the same room.

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_04]: The hype around it has fizzled, but for some companies, VR headsets have found a

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_04]: space as a tool for employee training.

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Here to tell us more is reporter Isabel Bousquet from our CIO Journal.

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Isabel, what kinds of training are companies using VR for?

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_03]: You see really broad range actually.

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_03]: You see some companies like Volvo and UPS and they're using them for these

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_03]: scenarios that are sometimes hard to replicate with an in-person training.

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_03]: So Volvo, for example, changing the battery on an electric truck is kind of a tough

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_03]: thing to train people on because you have to get them all in one place.

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_03]: You have to get the truck.

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_03]: You have to get the instructor.

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_03]: It takes time.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_03]: It takes logistics.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_03]: And if you can do that in VR, you're saving a lot of time and money.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Same thing with UPS.

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_03]: You could put a driver in training in the passenger seat of an existing driver

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_03]: and make him sit there all day just kind of observing.

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_03]: But there are some scenarios that may not happen on that day.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_03]: And so with VR, you can be a lot more targeted and you can say put this person

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_03]: in a scenario where they're fending off a dog attack or they have to stack

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_03]: packages in the trunk in a certain way.

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_03]: But then also you have VR being used to train soft skills as well.

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_03]: So things like how to interact with customers or how to show empathy.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_03]: St. James Place, which is a finance company based in London, is using it to

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_03]: train its financial advisors on things like say a couple comes in and are

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_03]: working with them, did they spend more time talking to the man in the couple

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_03]: than the woman and can they be better about that?

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_03]: It's kind of a broad range.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_03]: So some companies are building their own scenarios and they're doing the

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_03]: production and it's kind of a steep investment to make there, although some

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_03]: would say worthwhile and then they can also outsource it from third parties.

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_03]: There is a handful of startups in this space, but the idea is that even

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_03]: if you're sort of going with a third party content provider, you're still

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_03]: going to have to personalize it or customize it to a certain extent.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Like Walmart, for example, doesn't want a generic training.

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_03]: They want the training to look and feel like you're in a Walmart store.

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_03]: So there's an investment associated with that.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_03]: One analyst told me it's a minimum six figure investment required to get

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_03]: started here between the hardware and the software and then marrying that

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_03]: all together and making it work.

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's not cheap, sometimes cheaper than the actual training and sometimes not.

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_04]: That was CIO Journal reporter, Isabelle Bousquet.

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Coming up to weed out imposters and sift through a firehose of AI fueled

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_04]: applications, companies are adding new steps and more humans to the hiring process.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_04]: That's after the break.

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[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_04]: A few years ago, jobs in tech were more plentiful.

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_04]: To help hiring managers find the right person, companies use technology

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_04]: to sift through piles of resumes.

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Now businesses say they are overwhelmed by the number of applicants as new AI

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_04]: tools help job seekers tailor their resumes and apply to more roles.

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_04]: AI and other tech tools are also leading to the rise of so-called fake candidates,

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_04]: adding another challenge to the tech labor market.

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Our reporter Katherine Binley covers work and culture in Silicon Valley,

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_04]: and she's here to tell us what tech companies are doing to combat this trend.

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_04]: So Katie, how are AI tools helping job seekers?

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Companies I've spoken with have said you've got a lot of people looking for work at once

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and then you've got these new tools at their disposal.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_01]: What candidates can do is basically use generative AI tools to build them a custom resume for

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_01]: each job that they're applying to.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So it might be building off of keywords that are in the job posting and then it

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_01]: can shape your resume to highlight parts of your experience that are most aligned

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_01]: with what the company is looking for in a candidate.

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Then you can just send out so many more resumes than you otherwise would have been able to.

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So what's happening is companies are just getting inundated with resumes.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_04]: You report that companies say they're getting fake candidates.

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_04]: What does that mean?

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is really interesting and something that feels relatively new on the scene.

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_01]: What you have is there's this ubiquity of the remote interview where

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_01]: you're having your first phone call with the company over Zoom or whatever.

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So what companies are finding is that some people have made up a bunch of experience

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_01]: on their resume.

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_01]: The resume will look quite good and then they get on the phone with the person.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_01]: The person seems to be knowledgeable and has the right answers to the questions

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_01]: that they're asking.

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_01]: They might even be taking a coding test and perform well on the coding test.

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And then for some companies what they've experienced then,

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_01]: according to recruiters I've spoken with, is the person starts the job

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_01]: and they don't really know what they're doing and the company can then tell that

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_01]: work product is not up to the standards that it would be if the candidate had not

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_01]: lied about their experience and then they end up doing more research

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and finding out that the person is not who they say they are.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so the person is real, the skills are fake.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_01]: The skills are fake, exactly.

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_01]: But for some reason everyone's decided to call these people fake candidates

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_01]: because they're not being truthful about their experience or who they are.

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_04]: What technology are companies using to help weed out some of the maybe

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_04]: fake or unqualified candidates that they're getting in the age of AI?

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_01]: One company I spoke with is called Bright Higher and they have software

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_01]: that does various things among which is recording interviews.

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Companies will basically use the software, they'll record the interview

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and then they can go back and scrutinize how the candidate was behaving

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and in some cases they're noticing that the person's eyes have gone off the screen.

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_01]: They're no longer making eye contact when they're answering a question

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_01]: they suspect that's because the candidate has been looking up the answer

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_01]: with chat GPT and is going off of that.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the other thing is they're adding more human review in some respects

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_01]: to try to suss out whether people are who they say they are.

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_01]: So in some cases that might mean just doing extra research when they see

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_01]: someone's resume.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Did they actually go to the school that they said they went to?

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_04]: How do companies feel about candidates using chat GPT, say, during a skills test?

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Because somebody who works for them might use AI tools like that for their work.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I was sort of expecting that a lot of founders were going to be like,

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_01]: no we don't want you to use any sort of assistance

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_01]: while you're taking a technical test but it turns out they're like

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_01]: you would be able to use chat GPT if you want to, if you get this job.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_01]: What they do want though is for someone to still be able to take them through

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_01]: why they made all the decisions that they did.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Why did they use this tool here and make sure that they have

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_01]: strong enough knowledge base versus just relying purely on gen AI.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm just going to take a moment to mention that News Corp, the owner of

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_04]: the Wall Street Journal, has a content licensing partnership with OpenAI,

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_04]: which is the creator of chat GPT.

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_04]: But Katie, how can recruiters and job coaches tell if a candidate

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_04]: is using chat GPT or a similar tool?

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't know that they always can.

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_01]: One thing that's coming up in interviews is they feel like

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_01]: candidates are all starting to sound the same

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_01]: because they are but they're using chat GPT both for interview prep

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_01]: but then also possibly during the interview.

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_01]: One flag is like, hmm, is your answer pretty generic?

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Are you really being super specific about your individual work experience

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_01]: or are you speaking more broadly?

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Companies have been using technology to weed out candidates

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_04]: and it can be frustrating to put in a resume

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_04]: and then feel like no human ever looks at it.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_04]: So why is it a problem now if job candidates are doing the same thing,

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_04]: if they're relying on technology to get them a bit further in the process?

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_01]: It totally makes sense that people are using what tools are at their disposal

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_01]: to help expedite the process of applying to jobs.

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_01]: What ends up happening though, the result that is an issue

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_01]: is that the volume of applications is so large

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_01]: that the companies are then saying that they are having a hard time

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_01]: sifting through candidates and they believe that they might be

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_01]: missing out on really good candidates because of the volume.

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So it'll be interesting to see, okay, is more tech the solution

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_01]: or is it going to be like, wow, we really need actually more human review

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_01]: as the solution.

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_01]: We're still sort of figuring out which one is going to win out on that front.

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_04]: That was our reporter, Katherine Binley.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's it for Tech News Briefing.

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Today's show was produced by Julie Chang

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_04]: with supervising producer, Katherine Millsop.

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm Zoe Thomas for The Wall Street Journal.

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_04]: We'll be back this afternoon with TNB Tech Minute.

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for listening.