Why a State Department Office Battling Disinformation Abroad Is Facing Closure

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[00:00:18] Welcome to Tech News Briefing. It's Friday, November the 15th. I'm James Rundle for The Wall Street Journal.

[00:00:24] When lithium-ion batteries explode, they can burn hotter than a blowtorch. Clusters of batteries can present a significant safety risk, but some companies believe they have the problem cracked.

[00:00:35] And then, US officials warn that disinformation threats are more rampant and dangerous than ever before.

[00:00:41] So why is a State Department office, built to combat disinformation threats from Russia and China, facing closure?

[00:00:48] Our national security correspondent, Michael Gordon, joins us to discuss.

[00:00:55] But first, lithium-ion batteries are a mainstay of modern technology, powering everything from laptops to industrial machinery.

[00:01:03] But when they catch fire, it can become a huge problem, especially when dozens are placed close together.

[00:01:08] How are companies trying to prevent that from happening?

[00:01:11] By adding water. Millions of dollars have been poured into the problem, but solutions aren't as easy as it sounds.

[00:01:18] Here now to explain some of the challenges around the tech is WSJ reporter Stuart Condie.

[00:01:23] Stuart, how common is it for lithium-ion batteries to catch fire within these industrial settings?

[00:01:28] And how much of a problem can this cause?

[00:01:30] Well, it's not common. That's the first thing to say.

[00:01:34] It is generally very safe technology, but the problem is it does happen.

[00:01:39] And when it does happen, these fires burn super hot and you often can't put them out with water.

[00:01:46] So, in fact, spraying water on them can make the situation worse.

[00:01:50] Lithium will split water into oxygen and hydrogen, its component parts.

[00:01:57] And hydrogen, of course, is a highly explosive gas and oxygen burns.

[00:02:03] So you actually end up adding fuel to the fire.

[00:02:07] Quite literally.

[00:02:08] It burns that hot that it actually separates them into a component?

[00:02:11] Yes, that's correct.

[00:02:13] So what happens with these lithium fires is often it's about containment.

[00:02:18] Firefighters will make the surrounding area cooler.

[00:02:21] They will add water to surrounding units or surrounding infrastructure and just let the fire burn out,

[00:02:27] which is what has happened in fires in both the US and Australia.

[00:02:31] So what are some of the solutions that people are coming up with?

[00:02:34] Well, lithium is small and light, but it's also expensive.

[00:02:39] And as we say, it doesn't respond well to high temperatures.

[00:02:43] So if your battery doesn't need to be small or light, you can use heavier metals in your battery.

[00:02:50] And if you're using these heavier metals, this also allows you to use water,

[00:02:54] which, of course, is non-flammable, making batteries even less prone to fire risk.

[00:02:59] How challenging of an engineering problem is this?

[00:03:01] Well, it's not actually that challenging, given that this technology has been around for a long time.

[00:03:08] Car batteries have water-based electrolytes.

[00:03:12] The issue is that batteries have been focused on becoming smaller and lighter for portable use

[00:03:18] in your telephone, in your electric bike, in your scooter.

[00:03:22] But now we have the need for batteries in large-scale storage projects for solar, for wind.

[00:03:31] We can actually look at making them larger and building the capacity rather than making them portable.

[00:03:37] Can you give us an example of a company working on this tech?

[00:03:40] The technology is sufficiently attractive for Australia's largest power company to take an interest.

[00:03:47] Origin Energy has taken a 5% stake in Allegro Energy here,

[00:03:53] and is in the process of installing one of its batteries at a coal-fired power plant that is due for closure.

[00:03:59] The idea is that they're going to test out the battery while the plant is operational,

[00:04:05] and if it is successful, then potentially roll out elsewhere.

[00:04:09] In your story, you detail the challenges that a number of companies who have developed this tech are facing,

[00:04:14] but there is keen interest from government, from industry.

[00:04:17] So why is it a challenge for companies to get to a point where they can produce this tech in an economically sustainable way?

[00:04:23] It boils down to the same thing as it does with a lot of technology,

[00:04:27] is that you need to prove the use case first.

[00:04:30] You need to get a project built and operational before commercializing.

[00:04:35] No one's going to plough money into a project while there are cheaper or better-approved alternatives.

[00:04:43] Basically, it boils down to competition.

[00:04:45] But these companies are hoping that, such as with Allegro Energy,

[00:04:50] being backed by Australia's largest power producer,

[00:04:54] that they can get these test cases out there and generate interest that way.

[00:05:00] That was our reporter, Stuart Condie.

[00:05:02] Coming up, Generative AI is supercharging propaganda efforts from Russia, China and Iran.

[00:05:08] We'll find out why a State Department Office is set up to counter disinformation as facing closure.

[00:05:13] That's after the break.

[00:05:17] We'll find out why a State Department Office is set up to the next day.

[00:05:36] We'll find out why a State Department Office is set up to the next day.

[00:05:55] Government officials have warned that disinformation from Russia, China and Iran is at an all-time high.

[00:06:02] The advent of generative AI has also increased the ability of foreign information operations

[00:06:07] to reach scales not seen before.

[00:06:09] Against this backdrop, the Global Engagement Center,

[00:06:12] a State Department Office established to counter precisely this threat,

[00:06:15] may shut down just weeks before President-elect Donald Trump takes office.

[00:06:21] WSJ national security correspondent Michael Gordon tells us about the reasons behind its possible closure

[00:06:26] and why this is happening at a crucial time.

[00:06:29] Michael joins us now.

[00:06:30] During the election, of course,

[00:06:32] U.S. officials warned that the public is now facing a deluge of disinformation and misinformation threats.

[00:06:38] Given that, why is the Center facing potential closure now?

[00:06:42] It's important to note that what the Center does is it focuses exclusively on disinformation efforts abroad

[00:06:50] and encountering them.

[00:06:51] So what it's targeted at foreign audiences, not at American audiences.

[00:06:56] And it works hand in glove with the National Security Agency,

[00:07:00] which is one of the premier U.S. spy agencies,

[00:07:03] which gathers the information and declassifies it so the State Department Office can use it.

[00:07:08] This office has a budget of about $60 million and about 130 employees.

[00:07:15] It's minuscule compared to the Goliath-like efforts that are being undertaken by China and Russia.

[00:07:23] So, yes, it works with the U.S. intelligence community, which is well-funded,

[00:07:27] but this is kind of a David and Goliath situation where the U.S. has stood up this activity

[00:07:32] and to fight a pretty focused and determined campaign on the part of information campaigns

[00:07:39] and the part of its adversaries.

[00:07:41] But the reason it's controversial is in American domestic politics,

[00:07:45] there have been debate about whether efforts to curb Russian disinformation in the United States

[00:07:51] may inadvertently trend into censorship and curb free speech.

[00:07:57] And we're identifying platforms, say, on X that are carrying Russian information,

[00:08:03] whether it's useful to shut down those particular accounts

[00:08:07] or whether shutting them down is an act of censorship.

[00:08:11] The Global Engagement Center doesn't delve into that,

[00:08:14] but because it's involved in the broader enterprise of fighting disinformation,

[00:08:19] it's been caught up in that political debate.

[00:08:21] And it requires reauthorization, correct?

[00:08:23] Yeah, it was authorized for seven years.

[00:08:26] Its mandate expires on December 23rd.

[00:08:29] And unless Congress reauthorizes it, it's going to have to shut its doors there.

[00:08:35] And there's an effort afoot in the Congress to work out the compromise,

[00:08:38] but it's not clear whether one will be reached.

[00:08:41] This is also happening a few weeks before President-elect Trump takes office.

[00:08:45] Has there been any indication from his transition team as to

[00:08:48] what they think about the center and whether they want it to be reauthorized?

[00:08:51] No, there's been none.

[00:08:53] I reached out to them and they didn't respond.

[00:08:55] Elon Musk has been critical of the center in the past.

[00:08:58] And we reached out to X and we reached out to Musk,

[00:09:02] but he generally doesn't respond to increase for comment.

[00:09:08] And he didn't in this instance.

[00:09:10] On the other hand, there is Republican support for it in the Senate

[00:09:14] because the Republicans played a role in creating the institution in the first place,

[00:09:20] first and foremost, because they see the need to counter Chinese disinformation

[00:09:24] and other foreign information warfare.

[00:09:28] The next few weeks are going to be decisive and seeing whether the mandate will be extended.

[00:09:34] Is this coming at a dangerous time for disinformation globally with the advance of generative AI

[00:09:39] lowering the barrier for entry, allowing adversaries to increase their output and everything else?

[00:09:45] Yeah, I mean, technologically, social media, AI has enabled Russia and China to propagate their disinformation,

[00:09:55] which really has a long history on the part of those adversaries,

[00:09:59] and to spread it very efficiently around the world.

[00:10:02] I mean, here's a recent example.

[00:10:04] There are a number of Western-funded public health projects in Africa,

[00:10:08] which are intended to prevent Africans from getting malaria and other diseases through vaccinations.

[00:10:16] Moscow, through its disinformation efforts involving African organizations and front companies it set up,

[00:10:23] spread the disinformation that these are diabolical Pentagon biological warfare experiments,

[00:10:30] and that they should be shunned.

[00:10:33] So this is an activity that not only was intended to create propaganda about the United States,

[00:10:41] but also dissuaded Africans from getting the public health care they need.

[00:10:46] And so this is the kind of threat that the U.S. is up against in Africa,

[00:10:51] in the Balkans, in South America, and elsewhere around the world.

[00:10:56] Have there been any notable successes from the Center in exposing this kind of information,

[00:11:00] or influence operation in the past?

[00:11:02] Exposure is sanitizing in and of itself.

[00:11:05] The way Russian disinformation works is they don't do it in their own name.

[00:11:10] They create a front organization, a publication.

[00:11:13] They find a local outlet.

[00:11:15] Let's say in a Spanish-speaking country, it would be a Spanish news outlet.

[00:11:20] They propagate these assertions through them about secret biological warfare labs,

[00:11:27] or whatever they're pushing.

[00:11:29] And when you expose the hidden hand behind it,

[00:11:32] that these are really not repertorial efforts by local journalists,

[00:11:37] but really directed activity from Moscow, Beijing,

[00:11:41] that obviously diminishes its effectiveness.

[00:11:43] This office, by the way, existed and did some significant work under the first Trump administration

[00:11:49] when Mike Pompeo was Secretary of State.

[00:11:53] And in fact, during that period, it did work on efforts by the Russians

[00:11:56] to suggest that the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines intended to counter COVID-19

[00:12:04] were somehow untested and dangerous to use.

[00:12:09] That was our national security correspondent, Michael Gordon.

[00:12:12] And that's it for Tech News Briefing.

[00:12:14] Today's show was produced by Julie Chang.

[00:12:16] I'm your host, James Rundle.

[00:12:18] Additional support this week from Cordelia James.

[00:12:21] Jessica Fenton and Michael LaValle wrote our theme music.

[00:12:25] Our supervising producer is Catherine Millsop.

[00:12:28] Our development producer is Aisha Al-Muslim.

[00:12:31] Scott Salloway and Chris Zinsley are the deputy editors.

[00:12:35] And Philana Patterson is the Wall Street Journal's head of news office.

[00:12:38] We'll be back this afternoon with TMB Tech Minute.

[00:12:41] Thanks for listening.