Why First Responders Are Against U.S. Calls to Ban Chinese Drones

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Welcome to Tech News Briefing.

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_05]: It's Tuesday, August 13.

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm Zoe Thomas for The Wall Street Journal.

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_05]: What time is it on the moon?

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_05]: It may seem like a straightforward question, but it's actually tricky to figure out

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_05]: and super important in the race to get humans back to the lunar surface.

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_05]: And then, efforts by Washington to ban Chinese-made drones are meeting resistance from police

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_05]: departments, rescue workers, and others.

[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_05]: They argue drones from U.S. competitors just aren't as good as drones made by Chinese

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_05]: company DJI.

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_05]: We'll tell you about the fight.

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_05]: But first, if you placed a clock on the Earth and the moon and started them at exactly the

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_05]: same time, after 24 Earth hours, the clock on the moon would be at least 56 microseconds

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_05]: ahead.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Because time is affected by gravity, and no matter where you are in the cosmos, navigation

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_05]: depends on precise timekeeping.

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_05]: NASA has been called on to establish a lunar timescale to make missions safer as space

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_05]: gets more crowded.

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Here to tell us more is our reporter Eileen Woodward.

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_05]: So Eileen, just how big a deal is it in lunar navigation to have your timing off by something

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_05]: like 56 microseconds?

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_04]: So I want to bring us back to the idea of GPS systems on Earth.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_04]: They use precise timekeeping to figure out where you are and when you're going to get

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_04]: to where you want to go.

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_04]: And a difference of just one microsecond can result in an error of more than a mile in

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_04]: the estimated position of an object using GPS.

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Part of the impetus for this call to action to establish a coordinated lunar time is that

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_04]: cislunar space, so that vastness of space between Earth and the moon, including the

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_04]: moon's surface, it's going to get more crowded.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_04]: All the activity in NASA's estimation within the next decade is going to equal or exceed

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_04]: all of the activity preceding this time period in this cislunar space.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_04]: So establishing basic infrastructure like timekeeping is imperative to safeguard missions.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_05]: So Eileen, I said this before, but time is affected by gravity.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_05]: Can you tell us why and what that means for sticking a clock on the moon?

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Scientists already know how time passes differently in different parts of space thanks to Albert

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Einstein.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_04]: So Einstein's theory of relativity has a couple of parts.

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_04]: And basically general relativity is this notion of how gravity affects space and time.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_04]: And general relativity says basically time moves faster the less gravity there is.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_04]: So with regards to the moon, it's more than 200,000 miles away from the strongest part

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_04]: of Earth's gravitational pull.

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_04]: So there's less gravity there.

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_04]: So time ticks differently.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_04]: And then there's also this wrench in the mix of something called special relativity that

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_04]: sort of stipulates that the faster an object is moving relative to the Earth, the slower

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_04]: time passes aboard that object.

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_05]: So what steps are space agencies like NASA taking to establish accurate timekeeping on

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_05]: the moon?

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_04]: The most precise timekeeping on Earth is undergirded by atomic clocks.

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_04]: So these clocks are based on the vibrations of atoms.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_04]: And they want to, at least the folks that I spoke with at NASA and the European Space

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Agency, one of the first steps to sort of attempting to establish this coordinated lunar time is

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_04]: sending atomic clocks up there, whether that's through maybe the future Artemis missions

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_04]: or incorporating these into missions from NASA that eventually may take astronauts down

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_04]: to the surface.

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_04]: The European Space Agency has their own lander mission scheduled for roughly seven years

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_04]: from now that may incorporate one of these devices, some of these devices.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_04]: That's really going to be a first key step here.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_05]: So tell us a little bit more about the why now part of this.

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_05]: Why is the White House asking NASA to figure this out at this moment?

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, part of the reason is that it needs to be a coordinated lunar time scale.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_04]: It needs to be something that all spacefaring nations and agencies can agree upon because

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_04]: if they don't agree on a standard, you haven't solved the problem at all.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_04]: And of course, anything with regards to space has geopolitical ramifications.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_04]: There is a space race happening.

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_04]: The U.S. and China and Russia and other nations are all trying to grow and develop their lunar

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_04]: operations.

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_04]: And so part of the challenge here is going to be to get all of these different entities,

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_04]: maybe with competing interests, to agree on the same standard.

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's going to take time.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_05]: That was our reporter Aylan Woodward.

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Coming up, the U.S. isn't ready to wean itself off Chinese drones.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_05]: We'll tell you why.

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_05]: That's after the break.

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, Prime members, did you know you could be listening to this show ad-free on Amazon

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Music?

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Prime members get access to the largest catalog of ad-free top podcasts.

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_02]: To listen to your favorite podcasts without ads, simply download the Amazon Music app

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_02]: or visit amazon.com slash WSJ.

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_02]: That's amazon.com slash WSJ.

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Drones made by Shenzhen-based DJI account for around 70 to 90 percent of the American

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_05]: commercial, local government, and hobbyist drone market.

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_05]: But Congress sees the company as a national security risk and wants them outlawed.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_05]: The U.S. government has already placed tariffs on the drones and largely prohibited federal

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_05]: agencies from using DJIs.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_05]: But bills from the House and Senate take that further.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_05]: A bill that passed the House prohibits new models of DJI drones from receiving the license

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_05]: necessary to fly on American communication networks.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_05]: And the Senate has introduced its version of a Chinese drone ban, which also covers

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_05]: another Chinese drone maker.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Here to tell us more is our reporter Heather Somerville.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_05]: Heather, who in the U.S. is using DJI drones and what are they used for?

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Everybody from cops to sheriff's offices, fire departments, utilities companies, those

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_03]: who need to inspect dams, inspect power grids, agricultural workers, and then just your hobbyists

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_03]: and everybody in between who may have a reason to have a camera flying up in the sky.

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_03]: By and large, they are using DJI drones.

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And there's a couple of reasons for that.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_03]: One, they're the easiest to get.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_03]: You can get them from Best Buy, from Walmart.

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_03]: DJI manufactures these things in huge, huge quantities and ships them out all over the

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_03]: world and there are vendors everywhere.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_03]: American drones by comparison, really hard to get.

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_03]: The other reason is they're good.

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_03]: They're really good drones.

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And then the third reason is they're pretty affordable compared to other drones.

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Where does U.S. drone tech fall short compared to DJI?

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_03]: The people I talk to who have used both Chinese drones and American drones, they will say that

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_03]: American drones don't have nearly as good cameras.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_03]: They don't have quite as good radios, so they don't have good communication systems that

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_03]: allows people to fly the drones really far or behind obstacles like big trees or mountain

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_03]: peaks or big buildings.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_03]: They don't have very good payload systems, so they aren't as capable of carrying large

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_03]: quantities or payloads that weigh a lot.

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_03]: And there are some other sort of glitchy things about American drones, speaking very generally.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Now American companies will say that their technology is on par with DJI, but they will

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_03]: acknowledge that their drones are much more expensive and they're much slower at building

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_03]: them.

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_05]: Is it likely that that time and cost gap is going to be closed anytime soon?

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_03]: No, and this is really the concern here when we think about a world in which DJI drones

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_03]: are effectively banned, which is what Congress is proposing and very likely moving forward

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_03]: to do, is there needs to be a significant amount of time and investment, probably private

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_03]: and public investment in the US drone sector to get these companies to a place where they

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_03]: can manufacture at scale, which of course is necessary then to bring the costs down.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, so let's talk about those efforts to potentially ban DJI drones.

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_05]: Republicans, Democrats, military officials, federal regulators, they call DJI a national

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_05]: security risk.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Why?

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Going back several years, there's a few different threats that members of Congress, that members

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_03]: of the national security apparatus will say DJI presents.

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_03]: There's a data security risk.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Many people believe DJI is capable of collecting sensitive data through these drones and sending

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_03]: that data back to the Chinese government or the Chinese military.

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Then there's also the dependency argument.

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_03]: We are as a nation extremely dependent on China for drones.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_03]: And if there is to be a conflict with Taiwan, a conflict of any kind that involves China,

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_03]: they cut off the supply chain, the US would be left in a very difficult place.

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And then there's the war zone factor that in Ukraine and to a lesser extent in Israel,

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Chinese drones have had a huge presence.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_03]: So there is a concern about giving China this kind of power if the US is to enter a conflict.

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_05]: What has DJI said about this?

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_03]: DJI has consistently pushed back against these accusations.

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_03]: They say their drones are safe.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_03]: They give reasons such as you can fly DJI drones without connecting them to the internet.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_03]: DJI says that the US has never presented any real evidence about any sort of nefarious

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_03]: data collection.

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_03]: And so they reject all of these claims and the people who fly the drones, whether it's

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_03]: the firefighters or the search and rescue workers, say what's the big deal?

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_03]: It's stuff that I can see from Google Earth.

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_03]: And in the case of like a police department, well, that information is available through

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_03]: public records requests.

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Some states have already passed bans on these drones.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_05]: What impact has that had?

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_03]: So there's at least seven states that I found that have passed a law that does something

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_03]: to prohibit publicly funded agencies from using DJI drones.

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Florida last year put into effect an immediate ban on using DJI drones, which meant the police

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_03]: departments, the sheriff's offices that I talked to, they suddenly had nothing to fly.

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_03]: They were all using DJI drones and they had to get rid of them and they couldn't afford

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_03]: the American drones.

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_03]: The American drones were like five months wait time to get them.

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_03]: And many of them, including the Miami-Dade Police Department said, well, we have a couple

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_03]: of new American drones now, but our capabilities fall far short of what we had with DJI.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_05]: All right.

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_05]: That was our reporter Heather Somerville.

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_05]: And that's it for Tech News Briefing.

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_05]: Today's show was produced by Julie Chang with supervising producer Catherine Millsop.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm Zoe Thomas for The Wall Street Journal.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_05]: We'll be back this afternoon with TNB Tech Minute.

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks for listening.