Exploring ConnectWise's PSA Evolution, AI Integration, and Business Management with Jake Varghese

[00:00:02] Dave Sobel here at IT Nation Connect for a bonus episode of the Business of Tech. I'm talking with Jake Varghese of ConnectWise. Now, Jake, you're focused on the business management software, right?

[00:00:13] That's good, Dave.

[00:00:13] Alright, cool. So let's just for our listeners, let's do a quick summary. Like which products does that include?

[00:00:18] It includes seven products in the portfolio. It's the PSA, the CPQ, IT Boost, BrightGange, Smileback, Service Leadership, and our business industry.

[00:00:27] Okay, cool. So let's dive into that. I want to start-

[00:00:30] And then by the way, there's one more. We added Sidekick into the mix.

[00:00:34] Ah, see we don't want to miss out on the new acquisition.

[00:00:36] We don't want to miss out on that. So yeah, so there's Sidekick and you know, our partners absolutely love it.

[00:00:41] It's a cool integrated portfolio of stuff. Now, I kind of want to get a couple of pieces. The first is, I'm really intrigued to understand the way you're thinking about the PSA because it is in a way like the,

[00:00:52] it's the oldest, if you think about it from the ConnectWise portfolio. It's kind of the original OG product that's been around.

[00:00:58] Now that comes with both a positive intonation of like, it's been around, people understand it.

[00:01:03] But actually there's a flip side of that too, because it's been around for a little while.

[00:01:06] And oftentimes with products like that, there's some technical debt.

[00:01:09] Now what's interesting is you guys have made a really aggressive push to move to the ASIO platform to bring this all together.

[00:01:15] Now that comes with its own challenges. What I actually want to start is, is like, how are you envisioning success look like on that effort to move to the platform?

[00:01:26] To me, success is when our partners start using the new PSA in ASIO thin mass.

[00:01:35] Okay. And start deriving the benefits that we have envisioned.

[00:01:39] Right. Okay. It's not just the beautiful and delightful new experience that they've built, but all the additional stuff that we're adding on to it, the hyper automation,

[00:01:49] they're able to connect and finally realize the value of that integrated one single pane of glass within the ASIO platform.

[00:01:59] Okay. So we had RMM come in, Dave.

[00:02:01] And then we had security come in and our PSA is joining the party.

[00:02:05] Okay. So it's interesting. I want to unpack this a little bit.

[00:02:08] Please.

[00:02:08] And let's not, I don't think that time is the important factor. I think success is the important factor.

[00:02:13] And so I want to say like, one of the things that I noted in here is, is that we're looking at this, you know, the, the, at one point, either 3,200 was put up as a number of 5,000 on the platform.

[00:02:23] I know it's going to be significantly smaller. When we think about this from a PSA perspective, I could also look at connect wise is numbers of the city where we can say 25,000 and 45,000, depending on the numbers.

[00:02:34] What I'm actually looking at is, is let's define NMAS. Like how do we, how do we know you're reaching a critical mass with that? What does that MAS mean?

[00:02:43] And I would say, you know, I kind of, let's talk about it from a normal distribution perspective.

[00:02:48] Okay, great. There's the early adopters.

[00:02:50] Yeah. And there's the mainstream.

[00:02:51] Okay.

[00:02:52] And then there's the late stage adopters.

[00:02:53] Okay.

[00:02:54] What we've done with the approach that we've taken, Dave, is that you can continue to use your current PSA.

[00:03:00] Okay.

[00:03:00] No one's taking that away from you.

[00:03:02] Okay.

[00:03:03] In addition to that, we have this brand new thing that you, that we built that connects to your database.

[00:03:09] Okay.

[00:03:09] And continue to function.

[00:03:10] Then you get all these additional capabilities that become available that are native to ASU.

[00:03:15] Okay.

[00:03:16] Right. To me, it's like right at the middle of that distribution and the normal distribution curve, right?

[00:03:21] That midpoint to me is when I feel like, yes, we're getting folks to move over.

[00:03:25] Right.

[00:03:26] But the thing that I want to convey to our partners is I'm not taking anything away from

[00:03:32] Sure.

[00:03:32] It's really, really important.

[00:03:34] Why?

[00:03:34] Because Dave, you know, you've been in this space for a very long time.

[00:03:37] The PSA is the heart of their business.

[00:03:40] Right.

[00:03:40] They use it to manage their business and I do not want to impact any sort of business continuity.

[00:03:46] And I think that-

[00:03:47] I want them to be so comfortable if I didn't want to, sorry.

[00:03:50] Oh no, absolutely.

[00:03:51] And in fact, the reason I wanted to, what I was about to say is this, I actually think that message is incredibly clear.

[00:03:55] And I'm glad you reinforced it to the audience.

[00:03:58] And one of the reasons I wanted to explore this is because in order to get to that comfort level, there's often a need for understanding.

[00:04:03] What you said in there, there's an interesting power to the ability to connect to the same database.

[00:04:10] Now, that's actually really powerful because it opens both the new and the familiar at the same time.

[00:04:17] Right.

[00:04:17] I also know that there have to be some challenges in balancing that because that is, you know, if we're, if we're, if I'm riffing a little bit, right?

[00:04:26] Like it's a, it's a database structure that may have existed for a very long time, or there may be legacy piece of that that is to contend.

[00:04:33] Talk to me about the challenges that you think about in addressing the piece that's hidden from the partner.

[00:04:39] Right. We, so the challenges almost have to do with, um, honestly, the database piece was just fine when, okay.

[00:04:47] Some of the scaling challenges that I've heard when it get to the root cause of it.

[00:04:50] Yeah. It had to do with the user experience.

[00:04:53] Imagine if I tried to manipulate 10 records or trying to manipulate 10,000 records.

[00:04:59] Sure.

[00:04:59] It's not just an order of magnitude, several order of magnitude problem.

[00:05:03] So the user experience had to evolve to address that need.

[00:05:06] So we took care of that.

[00:05:08] Okay.

[00:05:08] The second thing was when you go across disparate files here, it's not just the PSS, PSS CPQ, like the user management, the authentication and the authorization, not having access to that uniform data layer.

[00:05:20] That constituted problems.

[00:05:22] Yeah.

[00:05:22] I mean, you can imagine what that is.

[00:05:23] Very much so.

[00:05:24] That cognitive dissonance that happened.

[00:05:27] So all of that we're addressing as well.

[00:05:29] At the same time, as we're making this move, and by the way, this is with the existing database,

[00:05:33] we're constantly figuring out how to re-architect the data structures in there.

[00:05:39] And that evolution has continued to happen over the 20 years that the PSA has been in existence.

[00:05:45] I mean, you said, yes, it's been around for 20 years.

[00:05:48] I look at it also the other way, which is it has been around for 20 years.

[00:05:53] Oh, right.

[00:05:53] Yeah.

[00:05:53] That means it's lasting and it is a product that actually works.

[00:05:58] And a lot of our partners use it day in and day out.

[00:06:02] And then, you know, there's 700,000 users that are using it concurrently.

[00:06:07] You wouldn't have that if the product did not work for 100%.

[00:06:09] To me, I have to shepherd that into this new evolution.

[00:06:12] What's interesting is because you're exactly right.

[00:06:14] Like nothing is binary, right?

[00:06:15] So we know that it's not a bad or a good.

[00:06:17] It's actually, it is.

[00:06:18] And we have to analyze it.

[00:06:20] Give me a, I'm sure you've addressed this.

[00:06:21] Give me a kind of example of the kind of decision that, for example, may have made a ton of sense.

[00:06:26] Some, let's go back in time, 18 years.

[00:06:30] So I had an early product decision.

[00:06:31] That's one that you had, that you reexamined.

[00:06:34] Is there like a classic example that you can help make a crystals for the partners?

[00:06:38] I'll give you an example right now.

[00:06:39] So one of the things that our partners love a lot is with the PSA, it is incredibly flexible.

[00:06:46] Yeah.

[00:06:46] And manly will end the way that people love it.

[00:06:48] But certainly UX patterns are a little bit older.

[00:06:51] So for example, if you want to open something, you'll see a bunch of tabs open up over the top, just like a browser.

[00:06:59] Right.

[00:06:59] And the problem is, you know, they kind of, you have to switch context when you go and you can't see everything on a tab.

[00:07:04] So what we've taken is, we've taken the main UX, taken all the things that go along with the UX based on the usage information that we have.

[00:07:13] And we made that as quick access.

[00:07:15] Okay.

[00:07:15] It's right there.

[00:07:16] So I always think, Dave, in terms of how many minutes, how many seconds, how many milliseconds can I shave off with each and every action that one of our users is taking?

[00:07:30] Right.

[00:07:30] Because what happens is, in the world that we live in, that one action multiplied by the number of people and the number of times that you do it in a day, it adds up to be a lot.

[00:07:39] Okay.

[00:07:40] So when I talk about the business management suite, even internally and externally, I say, I constantly talk about saving time and saving money for MSPs.

[00:07:50] Right.

[00:07:50] Okay.

[00:07:50] So when we make product decisions, or you've been a product person, I know, when we make product decisions, that's what's constantly resident in my mind.

[00:08:00] How do I make that happen?

[00:08:02] In addition to this, and I keep using this term a lot, you know, sometimes people make fun of me is that delightful experience.

[00:08:09] Yeah.

[00:08:09] When we build something, you just want to play with it.

[00:08:13] Right.

[00:08:13] And that's the kind of delightful experience it was.

[00:08:15] Gotcha.

[00:08:15] So I'm going to ask kind of a bit of a strategy perspective in the way that you, so you've got a really interesting portfolio of things, right?

[00:08:22] And you can, some of them it's clear is obviously from acquisition.

[00:08:26] Right.

[00:08:26] And so give me a little bit of the way that you're thinking about how that should be balanced as you move toward a platform, but that's the vision to move towards a platform.

[00:08:36] But at the same time, you talk about it as products, like some feel like they might make more sense to move into the, into a single product.

[00:08:46] They become part of the platform.

[00:08:47] Other, it sounds like they might be separate.

[00:08:48] Talk to me about the way you're thinking about addressing that.

[00:08:52] So from a strategy perspective, everything within the business management portfolio.

[00:08:56] Right.

[00:08:56] Let's start with that and they'll go to the platform piece.

[00:08:59] It has to do with helping an MSP run their business.

[00:09:03] Right.

[00:09:03] All the way from acquiring a customer, getting them onboarded, right?

[00:09:09] And then you're getting paid.

[00:09:10] And then there's a bunch of stuff that we do in between to make it operationally efficient.

[00:09:14] Yeah.

[00:09:14] That's simplistically, that's what we do.

[00:09:16] Okay.

[00:09:17] And then what I'm trying to figure out is let's get this big behemoth of a product, which I'll now start referring to as a solution.

[00:09:26] Okay.

[00:09:27] Or a service.

[00:09:28] Yeah.

[00:09:28] In the ASIO platform.

[00:09:30] Let's get that moved over because once again, the piece is the heart and everything else we're going to start bringing in in 2025.

[00:10:04] Okay.

[00:10:06] So you could go to market with a single, this is everything.

[00:10:10] And you would be 100% right at the end of the day.

[00:10:13] Right.

[00:10:13] Or you could also go to market with a portfolio of things.

[00:10:17] Tell me how you approach that decision making, like in terms of how it's divided up.

[00:10:23] I mean, when I think about decisions like that, I think about what's going to be best for our partners.

[00:10:29] Okay.

[00:10:30] How do they conduct business?

[00:10:32] Right.

[00:10:33] And the second thing that I think about is how do I offer value to those partners, to those MSPs, to those TSP's.

[00:10:40] Right.

[00:10:41] And you're right.

[00:10:42] The beautiful thing about bringing everything as a service into the platform is I can evolve it based upon the evolving needs of how our partners do business.

[00:10:51] Okay.

[00:10:51] You're right.

[00:10:52] This entire thing is, you know, the need to cash story.

[00:10:56] It could be one thing and I'm trying to understand how we think about how we're thinking about it going.

[00:11:00] Yeah, potentially.

[00:11:01] And then you could turn stuff on.

[00:11:03] You get a base stuff that you get, and then you can turn stuff on by entitlements.

[00:11:07] Okay.

[00:11:07] The powerful thing with our platform strategy is that we continue to be an open ecosystem and others can continue to plug it, plug it.

[00:11:16] Okay.

[00:11:16] Right.

[00:11:16] So that, I know I might not be giving you the perfect answer that you're looking for as binary one way or the other.

[00:11:21] My point is because of our approach, we get a chance to evolve based upon the needs of our partners and based upon the needs of the industry and the business.

[00:11:29] Makes sense.

[00:11:30] The other area I really wanted to spend a little bit of time understanding is, is kind of the way directionally you think the, broadly, AI is going to go.

[00:11:37] I'll go with that.

[00:11:38] Like you guys were an interesting first mover on sidekick.

[00:11:41] That's right.

[00:11:42] It's a, you know, it's a chat bot.

[00:11:44] I don't think any of us think the chat bot is the final form of this interaction.

[00:11:49] I think we can kind of all as technologists probably say this is, we're figuring out directionally where this is going to go.

[00:11:56] How do you kind of see the vision of that playing out as a direction?

[00:12:00] To us, we think of, um, AI and automation as being pervasive.

[00:12:05] Right.

[00:12:06] When we introduced sidekick last year, it was a digital assistant.

[00:12:10] Yeah.

[00:12:10] It's someone smart that you can talk to 24, 7, 3, 6, 5.

[00:12:14] Doesn't judge you and gives you good answers.

[00:12:16] Right.

[00:12:16] Right.

[00:12:17] But that was just the first step.

[00:12:19] And soon we're building, that's why we built sidekick and hyper automation into the heart of the SEO.

[00:12:25] And it's making its way into all of the products as well.

[00:12:28] Okay.

[00:12:28] But now you heard about, you know, agentic way of thinking where agents are coming over and going to do work.

[00:12:34] Our point is that evolution is going to continue.

[00:12:38] Right.

[00:12:38] Okay.

[00:12:39] And the best thing about that is it's all aligned with our mantra of operational efficiency.

[00:12:45] Well, if you're doing things today that is unnecessarily taking your time, how about delegating that to an agent so that, you know, the classic shift left.

[00:12:56] That's going to happen in this space as well, so that you can work on higher quality problems and offer extraordinary service to your customers.

[00:13:07] So our point is, and I've said this last year, is we view hyper automation, including AI, as enabling you to do more with the talent that you have.

[00:13:18] Okay.

[00:13:48] And what's your grandfathered into with the capability to send it.

[00:13:51] Yeah.

[00:13:52] The reason I've been asking the question that I am is, is to get a little bit of insight is, is, I think we all understand that it's moving forward and it will evolve.

[00:13:59] I think what we're all struggling with is a little bit of understanding where it's headed.

[00:14:02] And I'm not, I'm not saying I necessarily think that I have to have that.

[00:14:06] We all have like the same bit, but I think the uniqueness of the visions is what we're all trying to understand of where that headed is to.

[00:14:12] I'll give you one example, please.

[00:14:14] Right.

[00:14:14] So one of the things that we're doing is today, the user has to earn the software.

[00:14:23] Right.

[00:14:23] Would you agree?

[00:14:24] Sure.

[00:14:24] Right.

[00:14:24] I mean, so we have all the certifications that we need to go to.

[00:14:27] We spend countless hours.

[00:14:29] And now we're finally at a stage where the software has to understand the rules.

[00:14:35] Okay.

[00:14:36] So now one of the interfaces is as opposed to, let's say, using SQL to query something.

[00:14:42] I will query something using English or any other language that I'm proficient in.

[00:14:47] And the software figures out the context, figures out what it is that I'm asking, figures out where should I go from a data store, assembles the results and supplies a set of visualization.

[00:14:58] Let's say Brad Gage is an example.

[00:15:00] Yeah.

[00:15:01] Supplies the visualization in this particular form.

[00:15:03] Right.

[00:15:03] That is a fundamental shift.

[00:15:05] All right.

[00:15:06] In the way that we interact with, let's say, software based servers.

[00:15:11] Sure.

[00:15:11] That is something we think a lot about and starting to bring into our stuff.

[00:15:15] Now, in order to get to this place and you're already on the journey.

[00:15:19] So I think you've got some experience here.

[00:15:20] I'd like to get a little bit of insight into the way that you think about kind of data governance.

[00:15:23] And what I'm going to set the stage a little bit is, is like we all know that if we just throw data at most large language, either language models, particularly through something like a sidekick, where unless we've told it parameters, it might give out company secrets to everyone.

[00:15:39] Or, you know, they didn't, it won't necessarily no context or it'll come back with, with, with the wrong information in order to make it effective.

[00:15:46] You have to actually do a pretty good job with data governance.

[00:15:49] You've got to do some proper tagging.

[00:15:50] You've got to put some context around it, do analysis.

[00:15:52] Now, it doesn't have to be like a perfect, you know, old school, everything in a cell data, but you have to have done some work.

[00:15:59] Can you give me some insights into the lessons that you learned about addressing data governance for sidekick?

[00:16:05] You know, one of the good things and one example I'll give you is right from the start, we published our principles, right?

[00:16:10] And this is how we're going to govern data.

[00:16:12] And, um, Jason McGee, uh, in isolation secure 2023, stood up and says that this is how we're going to, we're going to govern ourselves, right?

[00:16:22] Govern your data.

[00:16:23] This is the partner's data.

[00:16:24] We're just stewards of that data.

[00:16:27] And we have strict guardrails where we do not cross pollinate across partners with any of the learning.

[00:16:33] We're saying that this is your data and we've established those guardrails and we continue to emphasize that whenever we build any solution that use the AIR, we are hyper, hyper conservative when it comes to data governance and data.

[00:16:48] That's it.

[00:16:49] And this is a real lesson here for solution providers.

[00:16:51] Cause one of the things that I think there's a big opportunity for them is to go out and do data governance for their own customers.

[00:16:56] So that's really incredibly powerful to have the principles put out and published that way.

[00:17:01] Like what does it mean internally?

[00:17:03] Like with your development teams or your data team, like how does that happen internally?

[00:17:08] The good thing is that, I mean, that sets the stage and you have to abide by that.

[00:17:13] Okay.

[00:17:13] Right.

[00:17:13] And there's, there's ongoing meetings where we come in and ensure that on an ongoing basis, are we abiding by that?

[00:17:20] Right?

[00:17:20] So there's first time, you know, it's all about clarity as leaders.

[00:17:25] We have to establish the character saying thou shall operate in this manner.

[00:17:28] Right?

[00:17:29] So every team before they embarks on doing something, they understand the principles.

[00:17:33] And then each of the leaders is, has to ensure that those are consistently enforced.

[00:17:39] Okay.

[00:17:39] Because we don't, we don't want leakages.

[00:17:41] Right?

[00:17:41] I mean, that's right.

[00:17:42] It's, it's very, very important that we operate in a high integrity.

[00:17:46] Gotcha.

[00:17:47] Okay.

[00:17:47] So it's, it's that process of, of managing it ongoing through the teams that is enforcing it.

[00:17:51] It makes it tense and sad.

[00:17:52] So the other thing I sort of, in a way, like I'm going to play a little bit of a game here

[00:17:56] is just like, so what in a way is the thing you want me asking about in say two years?

[00:18:00] Like, what's the thing that you want me thinking about as I'm probing success?

[00:18:05] Like what should I be thinking that far out?

[00:18:06] To me, you know, by that time, as you said, right, all the solutions are on ASIO.

[00:18:12] Okay.

[00:18:13] Like Jake, what other new capabilities are you unlocking now that you have hyper automation,

[00:18:19] everything on ASIO, right?

[00:18:21] What's the next evolution?

[00:18:23] What's the next paradigm that is coming in and that's enabled by ASIO?

[00:18:27] Though that, that's the conversation.

[00:18:29] Okay.

[00:18:29] I'm looking forward to.

[00:18:30] Guys, at this time, folks are still wondering, wait a second.

[00:18:33] You have this little piece of software, you've been talking about ASIO for a little bit.

[00:18:38] When is it coming?

[00:18:39] And now with ITNHC Connect 2024, they actually could see it in action.

[00:18:43] And I'm starting to provision partners for PSA and ASIO.

[00:18:47] I hope you would have brought a keynote where I watched the email repress.

[00:18:50] And I said, dude, that is what I'm trying to get to because Dave, I'm a huge fan of AI.

[00:18:56] And it's not a fact, it's not going away, but I think the type of solutions that it's going to unlock and the type of creativity that is coming.

[00:19:05] I think it's unprecedented in our lifetime.

[00:19:08] So I'm, I'm so excited.

[00:19:10] So that's what I want to talk to you about.

[00:19:13] Okay.

[00:19:13] In two years is like all the learning that we've had and what else are we doing to help the community?

[00:19:18] Well, we'll simply put it on the calendar because I actually will tell you, I'm exactly with you on the excitement level.

[00:19:23] What I'm finding that we need to do is we need to make that tangible for the solution provider conversation.

[00:19:30] And I, that's one of the reasons why I'm asking the questions that I am is, is I think those of us that are, that are thinking and planning on this may not necessarily be doing a great job of translating the vision out to the listeners.

[00:19:41] And so working on that continually is going to be something I'm looking forward to.

[00:19:44] We should talk more about this.

[00:19:46] The beautiful thing about getting a little bit older, Dave, is that, you know, you have the benefit of experience.

[00:19:52] And, you know, if you think about it, the benefit of wisdom, I said, look at all, all that has happened in our lifetime.

[00:19:59] The web, the cloud, mobile, right?

[00:20:03] You know, packet software to SAS way software, unprecedented disruptions.

[00:20:08] And something's coming along.

[00:20:10] That's more than any of these.

[00:20:12] And it just blows my mind.

[00:20:13] But I keep going back to the web and I keep talking about Amazon.

[00:20:17] No one could have predicted that Amazon would have emerged.

[00:20:20] And that's a, that is the type of disruption that is going to happen as a result of the, I'm kind of bubbling with excitement because of all the things that we could do because we made the investment years ago to go down the supply chain.

[00:20:34] Yeah.

[00:20:35] Now I'm going to, I'm going to end with sort of a counter because I am so glad you went to that parallel because I think about it in the same terms, but I will also observe that in each of those transformation, there was a period of confusion.

[00:20:47] So those conversions, while people figured out the practical applications, there was a period of confusion.

[00:20:52] We can go all the way back to the internet.

[00:20:54] Well, we had a bunch of internet companies that didn't make it because there was confusion.

[00:20:58] When we did mobile, there was a bunch of apps that didn't make it because there was confusion.

[00:21:02] Cloud, there was a bunch of stuff that, and there was confusion.

[00:21:05] And you're a hundred percent right.

[00:21:06] But what we're trying to all navigate is, is we're on the cusp of another one with AI.

[00:21:10] I think many of us can see what's coming, but we also know there's a period of confusion.

[00:21:16] And jointly, our job is to help navigate the confusion.

[00:21:19] Here's the, here's the one constant in all of that.

[00:21:21] Yes.

[00:21:22] ConnectWise.

[00:21:23] ConnectWise was around during the entire time.

[00:21:26] Sorry to say that, but you know, I personally feel that it is our job to help navigate the community successfully during the spirit of ambiguities to the other side.

[00:21:39] The good thing is ConnectWise has been around for some of those previous highly disruptive events.

[00:21:45] Right?

[00:21:45] And that's why, that's, honestly, that's one of the reasons why I'm here.

[00:21:49] Okay.

[00:21:49] This company's been through some of those, and I so wish that we can continue this conversation because I really enjoyed it.

[00:21:55] Because, you know, I like the way you think.

[00:21:57] And I really would be open to input from you as well.

[00:21:59] So that as we jointly help Shabbat this community together, you know, we do right.

[00:22:04] Well, Jake, I appreciate it very much.

[00:22:06] It's on video so everyone can prove that it happened.

[00:22:08] And Jake, I look forward to further conversations with you on this.

[00:22:10] Thanks for joining me.

[00:22:11] It's interesting.

[00:22:22] Thanks, Dave.

[00:22:42] just $500 per month, making our packages a fraction of typical event sponsorship costs.

[00:22:49] Be a part of the conversation that matters to IT service providers worldwide. Join us at MSP Radio

[00:22:57] and amplify your message where it counts. Visit MSP Radio dot com slash engage today

[00:23:03] to explore all the ways we can help you grow.

[00:23:09] The Business of Tech is written and produced by me, Dave Sobel, under ethics guidelines,

[00:23:14] hosted at businessof.tech. If you like the content, please make sure to hit that like button

[00:23:20] and follow or subscribe. It's free and easy and the best way to support the show and help us grow.

[00:23:27] You can also check out our Patreon where you can join the Business of Tech community

[00:23:31] at patreon.com slash MSP Radio or buy our Why Do We Care merch at businessof.tech.

[00:23:40] Finally, if you're interested in advertising on the show, visit MSP Radio dot com slash engage.

[00:23:47] Once again, thanks for listening to me. I will talk to you again on our next episode

[00:23:52] of the Business of Tech.

[00:23:56] Part of the MSP Radio Network.