The Business of Tech Lounge - Wednesday, March 27 2024

[00:00:00] It's Wednesday, March 27th, 2024, and I'm Dave Sobel. Welcome to the Business of Tech Lounge. Today on the show, new insights from Peter Kujawa of Service Leadership will focus on how the best in class performed versus the bottom quartile when it comes to the best in class performance.

[00:00:30] Fred Kerry on running your business and being extraordinary every day, Nick Larizio who discusses his MSP model and how he's approaching his business and Thomas Ryan on how AI is going to change the sales process. Plus coverage of AI enhanced cybersecurity tools, waste management and how AI might change diets.

[00:00:54] Now, I want to thank Sales Builder, our first Patreon sponsor who support makes this show possible. Focus on your IT sales workflow with the power of automation and visit them at salesbuilder.com. That's B-U-I-L-D-R.com.

[00:01:12] If you want to get your logo here and get a shout out, vendors you can do so with our vendor Patreon program. It's a simple monthly subscription and visit patreon.com slash MSP Radio to sign up. I can't do the show without support and thanks again to Sales Builder for theirs.

[00:01:31] Now, I do take questions and comments throughout the show so make sure to put them in chat. We'll have a dedicated question section in the show with listeners submitted questions. But first our top story.

[00:01:46] Enable shared its ecoverse vision to harmonize and transform the management of modern IT for MSPs at its empower event in Frisco, Texas. As part of this vision, Enable has announced integrations with Ruest and Halo PSA which will help automate workflows and streamline data and alert management.

[00:02:09] The ecoverse aims to reduce complexity and inefficiency by managing modern IT by seamlessly connecting disparate tools and delivering unified management, cybersecurity and data protection capabilities.

[00:02:22] The company also announced the collaboration with Microsoft to introduce Enable Cloud Commander, a multi-tenant solution for managing Microsoft 365 users, Azure resources and Intune devices.

[00:02:36] Cloud Commander streamlines Microsoft Cloud Management for MSPs offering efficiency across multiple tenants, streamlines service desk operations and monitoring of security scores.

[00:02:48] The collaboration aims to provide businesses with the ability to leverage the power of the Microsoft Cloud with efficiency and at scale.

[00:02:57] And also at the event, Halo PSA pledged not to take any outside investments from private equity or engage in mergers and acquisitions for 10 years.

[00:03:09] Now in December the company announced the ability for EnCentral, one of their two RMM products, to leverage generative AI to create scripts in a script automation package.

[00:03:21] I asked Enable about any other AI announcements at the event and Mike Adler, Chief Technology and Product Officer responded to me with this quote.

[00:03:32] Well, while we didn't make any additional product announcements with regard to AI, we did outline how AI plays a part in the Enable Ecoverse Vision which I spoke about during my keynote.

[00:03:44] AI will deliver intelligence and insights to help automate workflows, fueling increased interoperability and efficiency.

[00:03:53] So why do we care? First, my disclosures. I'm an Enable Shareholder. I also worked at the company under previous names from 2013 until 2019.

[00:04:07] If this was a set of announcements made in 2016, the industry would be very excited.

[00:04:15] In 2024, eight years later, I'm far less excited.

[00:04:20] Ecosystem as a strategy is well-worn turf with both connect-wise and auto-task leading heavily into that strategy in the late odds.

[00:04:29] You'll find comments from me online circa 2017 discussing then-solar-win MSP strategy at integration when I work there.

[00:04:39] But please don't look it up. My headshot is awful.

[00:04:43] Now, I'll take my licks personally for not delivering that to the community seven years ago when it was already late.

[00:04:51] But where I want to focus is what every company in this space should be thinking about and that's AI.

[00:04:58] Let's put some context here. Connect-wise, Eterra and Kaseya all have made AI moves.

[00:05:06] Connect-wise has a product in market, sidekick, and Eterra positions the entire platform as powered by AI.

[00:05:13] Cooper is part of Kaseya's strategy with their Cooper bots.

[00:05:17] Now, I'm not a product reviewer, so I will leave it in your capable hands to complete that portion of the analysis.

[00:05:24] I'm here to offer insights into strategy.

[00:05:28] This isn't a horse race, nor is time expired.

[00:05:32] And I'll offer that it's far too early to even consider winners or losers into the viability of their AI offerings.

[00:05:40] I'll just question whether the headline is something from last decade or investing in the future.

[00:05:47] The key question to consider is what your provider will look like in the next two to three years and which platform investments

[00:05:56] will the vendors be to help get you there?

[00:06:01] Do not fall for the fallacy of sunk cost.

[00:06:05] Your investment previously got you to where you are now and will not guarantee future results.

[00:06:13] Pass performance is not an indicator of future success to borrow from our colleagues in finance.

[00:06:20] For Halo, ask or what?

[00:06:25] The company is pledged not to engage in outside investments or M&A for 10 years.

[00:06:30] So, or what?

[00:06:32] What would be the consequences if it violates this pledge?

[00:06:36] The company says the pledge is written into contracts with MSPs.

[00:06:40] Find out what the consequences are.

[00:06:43] If the consequences are nothing, then the pledge's value is also nothing.

[00:06:49] The company doesn't have a press contact on their website.

[00:06:53] So, when I reached out, I couldn't find anyone to contact.

[00:06:56] So, if you know what those terms are, I'm distinctly listening.

[00:07:01] Because unless the benefit of the contract language is part of the value, it's all just marketing.

[00:07:07] Now, I want to observe that the instinct to hate on private equity is unproductive and done for headline value.

[00:07:16] Not all private equity is created equal, and it's critical to understand the investments thesis of the PE player.

[00:07:24] Comparing services private equity versus those on the product side is very different.

[00:07:29] As it's a strategy of various players within each sphere and they have each a different strategy.

[00:07:35] MSPs and IT services companies need to ignore the hype put out by M&A players who will always say there's an upside.

[00:07:43] Yet also be warned against the idea of considering a single PE playbook.

[00:07:49] I'm guilty of this too, and understand that it's about understanding the thesis of the investor at how it aligns with the goals of the organization.

[00:07:58] Because if the leadership of a company like Halo PSA could align with an investor that believes in their vision, I'm confident they'd take that deal as any savvy business owner would.

[00:08:11] Got a question or comment? Put it in chat if you're watching live.

[00:08:16] Now, I want to take a moment and revisit our interview with Fred Carey from the weekend. Let's hear from Fred.

[00:08:24] Start with a headline because anybody who's got a cool model like fuck average B legendary, that feels like a great place to start.

[00:08:32] Talk to me kind of how that came about and how you apply that philosophy.

[00:08:39] And by the way, it's a registered trademark, the trademark office thought me worthy of having that probably because I swear so much well done.

[00:08:48] It came about really trying to find it in your face way of telling people what it takes to make.

[00:08:57] We have so many of us want to have extraordinary lives.

[00:09:00] We will not have the best of everything, be able to travel when we want work as little as we want, have the best house, the best art, the best white or husband and fall all this kids and a great dog that isn't barking people.

[00:09:15] But the reality is to have that extraordinary type of life you got to do extraordinary thing.

[00:09:21] And most of us go through every single day not doing anything that's out of the ordinary.

[00:09:26] We live in what I call a quick sample of our comfort zones, which was anything but and we need to step outside of that.

[00:09:35] And so my challenge to people with that statement, if you want to be legendary, find one extraordinary thing to do every day.

[00:09:43] It could be like a little extraordinary thing.

[00:09:46] I always wanted to be somebody in tech, but I don't have any training whatsoever.

[00:09:53] I take the first pair of things to do something to move your life along so you can have that extraordinary life.

[00:09:59] And so the birth of that phrase came from that.

[00:10:05] You're going to do every thing every day and you're going to have it in average.

[00:10:10] You've clearly done a bunch of things.

[00:10:11] You've found it more than 10 companies.

[00:10:13] So I would feel like there's a pivotal moment in your journey that shaped your approach.

[00:10:18] What would you like to say?

[00:10:20] That's the moment.

[00:10:21] And what do you bring out of it?

[00:10:23] Failure repeatedly.

[00:10:26] Try to do something that had never been done before and not getting you right the first time.

[00:10:33] Elon Musk, three SpaceX failures, betting the farm still on the fourth one would have never heard of Elon had the fourth one killed.

[00:10:44] And just continuing to go for it was the realization that pain is part of the process.

[00:10:49] So Fred, I think a lot about failure and I really appreciate you focusing there because in a way like the best thing that could happen is somebody be successful.

[00:10:58] That's the best.

[00:10:59] And the second best thing would be failing fast because you can move on.

[00:11:03] But the worst is when you fail slowly.

[00:11:07] And you may not even know it's happening to you.

[00:11:10] How would you know?

[00:11:13] How do you know failure to make sure you know it's happening and you go job?

[00:11:18] Yeah.

[00:11:19] Recognizing failure begins with recognizing your own clause and understanding that just because you believe something the market may not agree with you.

[00:11:29] The people that have these long slow burn failures that end their careers are people that can accept the fact that

[00:11:38] they were wrong in the way they decided to go for something.

[00:11:43] And so the fast failure happens when you're flexible enough, when you can have it best enough to follow that flow of the market river if you will wherever it leads you.

[00:11:55] Chelling to do that means that long slow burn failure leads to eventual death.

[00:12:02] Well, we don't want to end up in the state of death.

[00:12:06] But we have to ask why do we care?

[00:12:08] And there are two points that I want to emphasize from that discussion with Fred that I thought were particularly valuable.

[00:12:13] The first we were talking about is that's idea of failure.

[00:12:16] The one thing that is worst in this environment is the idea of slow failure.

[00:12:21] Success obviously spectacular and what we're all shooting for.

[00:12:25] But second would be fast failure when something doesn't work and we get the feedback very quickly.

[00:12:31] The worst is something that's seeming to plug along and is slowly fail because you may want to adjust and keep trying to pull up that particular problem and see if you can course correct and it takes too long.

[00:12:45] And couple with that was some of what Fred thought which I thought was particularly interesting was this idea of positioning as memorable and doing one incredible thing every day.

[00:12:55] Because ultimately when you can string large numbers of successes together that builds the right trend line of what we're looking for in our businesses.

[00:13:04] And for me those two were the elements that I took away as things I wanted to think further about and pass on to MSBs and IT service providers.

[00:13:12] And it was why we end up be a carry.

[00:13:15] A reminder we are taking questions and I'm watching that chat will have an ongoing dedicated section for that later in the show.

[00:13:23] But I want to catch up on a few trends in investments that I think we can learn from.

[00:13:29] First, Saira a cyber security startup is raising around a funding worth nearly 300 million dollars led by Kato to address the growing demand for AI enhanced tools in enterprise data protection.

[00:13:44] The funding round is expected to triple Saira's valuation to $1.5 billion dollars.

[00:13:50] The startup focuses on creating accurate pictures of data usage in organizations networks and aims to help companies identify and address potential breaches of their own internal intellectual property and data protection policies.

[00:14:08] MyGug a food waste management startup based in Westcork, Ireland has raised over 900,000 euros in a seed funding round led by BVP and with participation from enterprise Ireland.

[00:14:22] The funding will support the expansion of myGug's market reach in Ireland and beyond.

[00:14:27] MyGug provides a food waste disposal system that converts waste into biogas energy for cooking and liquid fertilizer for gardening.

[00:14:37] The investment will help the company deliver its innovative solution and contribute to the fight against climate change.

[00:14:43] A study underway at 14 clinics including LSU's Pennington Biomedical Research Center and LSU Health New Orleans aims to develop a first of its kind algorithm to predict individual responses to diets and exercise.

[00:15:00] The study will create a rich database of how people's diet interacts with their overall health and lifestyle using data from 1 million Americans.

[00:15:09] The project is funded by 170 million dollar national institutes of health grant and is expected to provide personalized dietary prescriptions by 2027.

[00:15:20] So, why do we care?

[00:15:23] What interests me about the Siaira technology is that it's a technology addressing data usage and understanding what data an organization has.

[00:15:32] It's a precursor to AI and valuable even without.

[00:15:38] Now, I included myGug because there's a space of climate change customers that I wanted to highlight.

[00:15:44] While I'm skeptical of green IT type investments, there will be companies investing in addressing climate change and it's an interesting emerging market.

[00:15:54] Finally, one of the promises of AI is that personalization and bringing some examples like personalized diet healthcare is an area of growth.

[00:16:04] Examples like these give the indicator of where the real value is when we consider AI hype.

[00:16:10] Look for applications such as this one for your customers.

[00:16:15] Let's also hit up a product announcements I wanted to cover.

[00:16:18] Bitdefender has launched Gravity Zone Cloud MSP Security Solutions, offering advanced endpoint protection and managed detection and response services or MDR.

[00:16:28] The solution aims to help MSPs incorporate security services into their offerings and strengthen overall cybersecurity posture.

[00:16:36] The offering comes in three tiers providing tailored security protection based on the specific needs and budgets of MSP customers.

[00:16:45] We'll be taking questions and continue to do so you can still submit any time in the chat window or submit for next week if you're watching the recording sending to question at mspradio.com.

[00:16:59] Today, we'll be doing some extra previews of interviews that come out next week.

[00:17:06] I'll be off next week and you'll be getting a series of interview episodes to explore a number of topics relevant to providers.

[00:17:13] The first one is Thomas Ryan and he's focused on AI sales. Let's hear a bit of that interview.

[00:17:20] You're a guy that is a ton of time thinking about the sales process.

[00:17:23] What I want to square for me two statements you've just made because on one hand, you said we're going to eliminate a whole bunch of people but at the same time in real life is going to be coming incredibly important in the sales process.

[00:17:36] If you can't trust anything that you see online but you've additionally moved the sales process online and you can't trust it.

[00:17:45] And the buyers are looking for more in real life. How do you square those two competing tensions?

[00:17:53] So I think that there's going to be a lot more in real life because people are going to crave it. People are going to crave that human interaction.

[00:18:01] They're going to want to know who they're dealing with because you can program the computer and say anything.

[00:18:08] You can use whatever voice you want, you can use whatever techniques you want but they still want to look someone in the eye and shake their hand

[00:18:15] and know who they're dealing with on the other side if you're doing a big multi-million dollar deal.

[00:18:21] I mean, if you look at how insurance companies work. They want to know you for years before they do a lot of major work with you.

[00:18:29] If you're a side on the board of the Locom10 and it's company.

[00:18:33] And I remember they were looking at pricing from insurance companies.

[00:18:37] And these guys process was three or four years. They said, they're not sure if they're going to quote this year, maybe they'll quote next year.

[00:18:48] I mean, it was unbelievably long and I was shocked with me to this day how long that sales process took and it was because they didn't want to get burned.

[00:19:00] So, you know, I think it's going to be important from that standpoint.

[00:19:05] I do see the AI being hyper persuasive over time just having perfect information.

[00:19:10] And I see just improving everyone's life in general.

[00:19:13] So it might not improve the life of the guy in the Philippines who's going to lose a job, right?

[00:19:18] But it's certainly going to improve the life of every person who has to call that customer support place.

[00:19:25] You know, if you're calling Comcast and you sit on hold for a half hour to have how have your life gone usually during business hours when you're busy, right?

[00:19:34] Is you're trying to get something done and then you get the run around.

[00:19:38] You have a slightly automated system for 20 minutes, get through to someone, usually they don't know what they're talking about.

[00:19:44] At least that's been my experience.

[00:19:47] So to have perfect information, you know, or pretty much perfect information to have it know all of the technical data to be able to have all of the most up-to-date offers, be able to answer that stuff instantaneously without having to look through notes.

[00:20:04] It's going to be super powerful. It can improve how people feel about it, right?

[00:20:11] People are going to they're going to like it better than talking to someone in India or Pakistan.

[00:20:15] They just talk. They're going to like getting perfect information.

[00:20:18] They're going to like not having to wait on hold for 5, 10, 20 minutes.

[00:20:21] You know, not having to talk to three agents. I talked to Apple last night.

[00:20:25] I talked to three different agents, right? You know, I was on the phone with them for 28 minutes.

[00:20:30] Not a good process and that's the norm.

[00:20:35] So we have to ask the question why do we care? Thomas brings invested in AI sales into slight with his thinking of the way real life will be impacted here.

[00:20:47] I think it's going to be a fascinating interview for you to dig into because he's someone who is very invested in making that work very well offers a product in the space.

[00:20:56] But he highlights the conflict between trust and automation, the more the inability for people to understand what those technology,

[00:21:07] the more in person and person to person may become more valuable.

[00:21:12] And I think there's a real insight there to be found in the way that we approach our businesses when you can be faked online,

[00:21:20] there becomes additional value to that real life interaction.

[00:21:25] That's one of the key takeaways I want you to think about as you go into that interview which will be releasing next week.

[00:21:31] Now make sure to put any questions in the chat. We're going to be taking them. Remember bring your questions live and you'll get a live response.

[00:21:40] I really do enjoy taking questions or of course, submit them ahead of time if you're interested in getting a live response or record what?

[00:21:49] Let's take our first question of the day.

[00:21:52] Can an individual effectively navigate the transition from a technical role to a managerial position such as moving from an IT specialist to a project manager within an MSP, especially considering the impact on mental health and work life balance.

[00:22:09] Oh I love this question because this is one that that really hits at a key issue that we talk a lot upon the show on a regular basis.

[00:22:18] One of the things that I always highlight is that being an individual contributor versus being a good manager is a different set of skills.

[00:22:26] And one of the reasons I've spent as much time talking about things around remote work and remote work environments is the need for individuals to be really good managers.

[00:22:37] I think taking advantage of those capabilities requires good managers and that's a skill that needs to be acquired.

[00:22:45] So the number one thing that I'm going to tell someone who's thinking about transitioning from being a technician to more of a leadership and management role is understand that management is a skill itself, managing people communicating effectively and doing management of projects is different than just doing it.

[00:23:04] It is a very learnable skill but do not assume simply because of execution as an individual contributor that you have the ability to do that and spend time being very deliberate about your management style management system and how you communicate.

[00:23:25] Because that transition there is the most important element of success in the way you will be a manager.

[00:23:33] So I think that more than anything is more important my second piece as a follow on to that would be understand that that is an ongoing investment in that skill.

[00:23:43] And there is a skill that you continually need to practice and make sure that you do well on an ongoing basis.

[00:23:50] Well, I love taking questions, do make sure to submit them both in chat when you're here live or submit them online at question at mspradio.com.

[00:24:00] Now next up a preview of what's coming this weekend.

[00:24:04] Nick Larizio positions as a next generation msp let's hear a preview from Nick.

[00:24:11] What's the core idea behind the stupid technologist like what's the why of what you're doing?

[00:24:18] Well, I saw I saw a number of problems with legacy msp's that are 20 to 30 years old and that's why a lot of them are selling right.

[00:24:25] A lot of them kind of spun off as you know around the dot com boom and haven't really changed their service model set.

[00:24:31] Right, it's still a lot of especially when you're at that 20 to 30 person.

[00:24:35] It's still a lot of break fix still do hourly billing they do that right.

[00:24:40] It's a very kind of old model.

[00:24:42] I saw a number of challenges first being there's not really an aggregator or a good one that I could find that took the 20,000 msp's and kind of pulled them together.

[00:24:52] It's still a lot of like channel sales.

[00:24:55] You know, if you Google most msp's you already even see many Google reviews right it's a lot of word of mouth a lot of long term contracts a lot of long term business deals.

[00:25:04] So I saw that as a first issue second I saw a lot of like the gig economy exploding right services like Uber where I could go to a fiber dot com and contract out maybe even overseas.

[00:25:17] A network engineer at an hourly rate so I saw that those opportunities were there for people who are in purchasing power to kind of outsource and leverage other places to to get it assistance.

[00:25:31] So I saw I noticed those two things and then I notice a third major problem which is all of these msp's now we started as help desk or you know maybe they're augmenting a company that doesn't have an in house or they're doing a function of the company.

[00:25:46] So I saw that a lot of these helped us essentially who became and they went to the cloud.

[00:25:58] Who went to when managed services became big which was the start of a SaaS model right so they went through all of these changes over this 20 to 30 year period and now they're all trying to be security companies.

[00:26:14] So I'm going to start with a problem with a lot of AI now automating things like the past regrets or where's my pay, where's my file or imaging of computers you know at the factory as opposed to having to send somebody on site.

[00:26:30] So I noticed a tremendous amount of change happened really rapidly and I said now is a great time to start a new and build a new service model.

[00:26:40] I have to ask why do we care. One of my working theories is that a generation of msp owners is coming up that's building approaches that push back against traditional approaches.

[00:26:52] That's why I highlight Nick to help get in the minds of these new generation owners notice premise specifically to be different from existing legacy msp's that's why I think you're interested in this interview and I look forward to feedback coming from you as you listen to me.

[00:27:09] But as a reminder my patreon supporters already have this video and you can get all my interview content early as a supporter.

[00:27:19] Visit patreon.com slash msp radio and get access to that right now.

[00:27:26] Now one more preview for you and this one many msp's already know the guest Peter could jawa with service leadership always brings the best data and he joined me to talk about the new

[00:27:38] service leadership compensation report. Here's a preview of our conversation some questions so I want to hit a couple of the highlights with you and I noticed so 420 23 you noted that the top performing technology solution providers provided lower compensation increases compared to the bottom

[00:27:58] and then you said indicating a difference in compensation strategy. I feel like difference in compensation strategies is doing a lot of heavy listing there.

[00:28:07] Give me a little bit of insight into what you mean by the differences in the strat.

[00:28:12] Yeah, it's a great question so this generated a lot of buzz last year and it generated a lot of we'll say constructive feedback from employees who whose takeaway was that

[00:28:25] you're teaching my msp to pay me and first of all that's not the case so there's a couple of ways that best in class pay their people on average less.

[00:28:39] And by the way we saw the data again this year. So number one is is typically best in class providers are much better at using data to make business decisions.

[00:28:51] So we saw the evidence again this year that once again the bottom portal paid the biggest increases last year and we're planning on paying the biggest increases this year.

[00:29:03] And the same thing holds true the opposite holds true for the best in class the best in class called the line the most and their increases last year and they were planning on doing it again this year.

[00:29:14] So so definitely data plays part of the decision of it. If you're not sure what to pay your people and maybe you're responding to a number that you heard from one of your employees who have heard it from a recruiter or some other source that's not necessarily reliable data.

[00:29:31] You're not necessarily going to make the best decisions on compensation.

[00:29:35] So that's certainly one factor. The second factor is that the best in class are in a much better position to bring in less experienced employees particularly into staff positions get them trained productive and up and running faster.

[00:29:54] And as a result they have a higher percentage of level one text and level one engineers etc. So when you look at the best in class paying less it doesn't mean that every single person who works at a best in class shop is making last might.

[00:30:13] So what it means is on average across the category they're paying less. So let's take an example hypothetically you let's say you have a best in class shop and they're paying exactly the same amount during heavy one two and three tax as the bottom quartile shop just for sake of discussion.

[00:30:33] But the best in class shop employees half of their tax are level ones 30% of their tax are level two's and 20% are level three's the bottom quartile shop has maybe 20% level ones 50% level twos and 30% level three's.

[00:30:53] Well, if you're paying the same amount and you add all of those people up put them into a bucket and divide it by your FTEs on average you're paying more at the bottom quartile and less at the best in class.

[00:31:06] So there's a lot of things that feed into it but there is definitely a distinct difference between how the best in class and the bottom quartile pay their people once again.

[00:31:16] Another big difference is an incentive pay the best in class or tying about 2X as much of total compensation to incentive or performance pay for staff positions and about 3X as much for a manager positions as the bottom quartile.

[00:31:36] So there's radical differences in what we see in the data.

[00:31:41] We have to ask why do we care although it should be reasonably obvious as business owners you want to make sure that you're taking your most expensive line item and spending the money effectively.

[00:31:53] Note there's some real subtlety in what Peter is talking about there what the difference is is not necessarily that they pay less that those best in class performers are actually able to use more junior resources for more of the work.

[00:32:08] This discussion is wide ranging Peter and I talk about a number of different issues including remote work effectiveness and how you can continue to leverage this kind of data in your business.

[00:32:20] This one will be releasing next week I look forward to getting feedback from you the listeners.

[00:32:26] Now I want to thank sales builder our first Patreon supporter who support makes this show possible.

[00:32:33] Focus your IT sales workflow with the power of automation and visit them at salesbuilder.com that's B-U-I-L-D-R.

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[00:33:10] And you can support directly on patreon with our give what you want model you set what you think the content is worth and give to support the show we can't do it without listeners like you.

[00:33:22] And if you have a question you're listening to the recording send it in at question at mspradio.com we take those questions regularly now I'll be off next week but you will get lots of additional content during that time.

[00:33:36] One of the episodes is my appearance on slow smoked business where the tables are turned as I'm interviewed by host Jared Morgan and we smoke some meat together.

[00:33:48] We'll make sure that you follow the podcast on whatever podcast you in platform you enjoy your podcasts on or subscribe on YouTube and hit that notification bell.

[00:33:58] Thank you for joining me on the business of tech lounge and I will see you next time.