James Davis the Director of the Pax8 Academy in Asia hosts Brendan Ritchie from Lightwire to discuss what it takes to expand into a new market Brendan talks us through the mistakes that were made and what he would do differently from the lessons he learned. He talks us through what was successful so we can be successful in our expansions.
[00:00:17] Hey everyone, it's James Davis from the Pax8 Academy down here in APAC again, and I've got Brendan Ritchie from Lightwire
[00:00:27] You're very welcome
[00:00:28] It's the first time I have been a guest on a podcast rather than hosting it so I'm
[00:00:32] I'm excited mate. It's a very different vibe but should be fun. I
[00:00:37] Think I still prefer being a guest so we'll see how you go. Maybe you'll get the itch
[00:00:42] compare notes after
[00:00:44] well, I
[00:00:45] Really wanted to get you on here because
[00:00:48] You know, we've obviously we've had a lot of conversations backwards and forwards and what really sparked my curiosity is the fact that you
[00:00:56] Expanding your business from base in New Zealand and expanding and I'm trying to grow it across the ditch here in Australia and I
[00:01:04] can see a lot of
[00:01:06] technology businesses
[00:01:09] Arriving needing to think about it or just at that point of thinking there could be an opportunity
[00:01:14] So I thought this would be a great time to have you on and
[00:01:17] Explore what's what's been the challenges?
[00:01:20] What's went right? What's went wrong?
[00:01:23] And just get your sort of wisdom to help people fast-track it so
[00:01:28] Wisdom is a scary term, but yeah, we'll give it a crack
[00:01:31] I'm happy to have to share my mistakes and and and the things we've done well
[00:01:35] I'm probably a smaller amount of those but yeah should be good
[00:01:38] Well, let's start with like what what made you want to expand out of New Zealand?
[00:01:44] That's a big step to actually think about it. Okay. Yeah, it's it's a bit cool
[00:01:48] So I think I'll have to give you I'll keep it brief no one wants to hear a big backstory in these podcasts and true
[00:01:54] So I'll try and keep it brief but to understand where I've come from I
[00:01:58] Had a role with another ISP that shall remain
[00:02:03] Nameless just in case they don't want to
[00:02:05] associate themselves with me anymore not sure but my parents are involved in that ISP and
[00:02:10] They actually for lifestyle reasons actually wanted to move from New Zealand to Australia and because of that
[00:02:16] They thought let's recreate what we've done as an ISP in New Zealand in Australia
[00:02:21] That was my first experience going okay. I'm an Australian resident working for a
[00:02:28] essentially a New Zealand ISP and
[00:02:30] that was up until the end of 2016 and
[00:02:34] It was probably only about a three year
[00:02:38] Period there where that was the case
[00:02:41] That might be wrong. I might begin my chronology wrong
[00:02:44] But the key point there is that particular ISP
[00:02:47] Completely changed their business model on the Australian side
[00:02:49] They moved away from being a company that worked with the channel to a company that actually tried to be the channel
[00:02:55] They tried to be an ISP slash MSP and then it never really worked
[00:02:58] so anyway, I left that company in
[00:03:01] At the end of 2016 and really didn't have too much for plans
[00:03:04] So I reached out to a man who had been a client of mine in my role at that company
[00:03:09] I called Andrew Johnson who is my boss now at Latwa and I said look I've sold you some fiber
[00:03:15] From Melbourne to Hamilton. We've met a few times for a coffee on my many trips to New Zealand
[00:03:21] Looking for a gig. I look at your website at that point was a rural
[00:03:25] Focus website with pictures of cows and farmers because they sold rural wireless
[00:03:29] But I knew they had business customers, but you wouldn't know it by their online presence
[00:03:33] And I said look I think we should expand to Australia should build a voice network. You should bring me on
[00:03:38] I don't want to leave Australia
[00:03:40] And I think we can have a whole set aside business brand and build that out and Andrew being Andrew
[00:03:46] He quickly said yes and flew me over a couple of days later to meet the team and the rest is history
[00:03:50] so it's been almost seven years now and
[00:03:53] Yeah, there's been a hell of a lot of learnings that I guess yeah we'll go through but but in terms of what made light-wire
[00:04:01] Tech that opportunity
[00:04:03] Andrew and I think just saw that it's a massive market. We're excited by the scale
[00:04:08] We we felt that probably what you
[00:04:12] Hinted at at the outset there is that when MSPs and telcos get to a certain size
[00:04:17] They actually have customer demand often drive that requirement and then you have a choice of going either
[00:04:23] We found that often join partnerships or we do it ourselves and
[00:04:26] Yeah, we Andrew saw the the sense into any of ourselves and and we took a punt and
[00:04:32] Yeah, yeah, it's been a big big six or seven years full of learning
[00:04:37] And look I you know the point of this podcast today
[00:04:40] Is this densibly to to talk about how to do the trans Tasman thing well?
[00:04:46] I would have felt you know just being vulnerable and honest here
[00:04:49] I would have felt somewhat of a fraud coming on and talking about that maybe a year or so ago
[00:04:53] When I felt like we'd fired a lot of bullets and not a lot of them had necessarily landed and it's only been in the last
[00:05:00] Yes, six to 12 months where most days we have an inbound lead that sales qualified from the type of client
[00:05:04] We want and I feel that I can now start to speak with some
[00:05:09] Authority on at least what is working and certainly with some authority on what definitely hasn't worked
[00:05:14] So so yeah, just just let me know what you want me to kick off with
[00:05:19] Let's start with the challenges
[00:05:21] Well, what are some of the biggest challenges you've had overcome in that time to start to get it to work and
[00:05:28] Brand definitely so Australians in my experience
[00:05:32] There's that they used to be and it is changing a little bit
[00:05:34] But there was always that no one ever got fired for buying from Telstra. Yeah, I've tell just screw up
[00:05:38] It's not your fault. You chose Telstra everyone's gonna choose Telstra
[00:05:41] So so that was always just a safety piece that we found it really hard to get past and
[00:05:46] almost well, why would I buy from you when I can buy from Telstra and
[00:05:49] That was if you're going direct. That's the problem. The next one is if you're in the channel
[00:05:54] Everyone knows everybody. I mean, you only have to meet, you know, I don't know Ryan's Blaine Wayne small Nigel Moore like
[00:06:01] All these people you you know, everybody everybody knows everybody, right?
[00:06:05] Like the first time you and I caught up you introduced me to like a bunch of people and next thing
[00:06:09] You know my whole networks biggest so so you have to you're an outsider who doesn't know anyone and that's that's ultimately the biggest challenge
[00:06:16] So you've got to
[00:06:18] Prioritize building a network and ingraining yourself in the fabric of that market
[00:06:23] And I definitely didn't do that very well. So that was that was huge
[00:06:27] You know issue on my part
[00:06:30] The other one is is geographic or perceived geographic focus things like domain names
[00:06:36] Dot-co dot NZ anything looks terrible in the Australian market.com.co, okay
[00:06:41] Probably not all but but you know anything this comm that are you looks terrible in reverse
[00:06:45] so you have to get away from any perceived geographical bias and
[00:06:49] That also means ideally having an office we didn't have an office for the first
[00:06:54] four
[00:06:56] Maybe four and a half five years of being in Australia and it made a big difference when we got one
[00:07:00] You know
[00:07:01] You can only do so many job interviews and meetings in cafes, right and having a having a base that's nicely designed
[00:07:07] Even if it's barely used it gives you legitimacy and a sense of permanency in the market
[00:07:13] What else has been things we've had to overcome regulatory environment understanding it particularly as an ISP
[00:07:18] You know the intercept laws are very different country to country
[00:07:21] the
[00:07:23] The obligations around even network builds
[00:07:25] You know you have to notify particularly in New Zealand around network builds in a certain way that isn't the same in Australia
[00:07:31] But Australia has intercept laws that are quite
[00:07:34] Quite hard to get your head around as a New Zealand when you first coming over here. So there's definitely that
[00:07:41] Yeah, I would say the language as well like that the the language was hard because the Australian ISP space used weird terms like
[00:07:50] Metroethanet E-line like I know that their terms that are used sort of globally but in New Zealand you've got
[00:07:54] Just as a compare and contrast right we've got UFB BS 1 2 BS 3 HSNS
[00:08:01] Hyperfiber now over here. You've got you know, NBN TC for NBN EE you got Telstra EA
[00:08:05] You got all these things that that neither exists on both sides of the Tasman
[00:08:09] So you really have to take the time to understand it and ideally employ smart people locally who can educate you and the rest of the
[00:08:15] team on it
[00:08:16] And I guess there's just the financial overhead
[00:08:19] If you're funding it from New Zealand, you're going to cop the exchange rate
[00:08:23] You are going to find that you are shifting a lot of money over as you take time to build up and so
[00:08:29] another barrier really is the cultural or
[00:08:33] the willingness barrier from a business perspective to
[00:08:37] to
[00:08:39] Value the endeavor the effort enough to offset that cost and I'm doing a lot of talking
[00:08:44] Sorry, but one thing I did want to say is in terms of that that particular barrier that the
[00:08:50] The break even barrier it's so hard to know when you've hit that because it's not as simple as our
[00:08:55] P&L right we're bringing in so much money in Australia. It's costing us this much
[00:08:58] There's deals with one in New Zealand where if we didn't have an Australian presence
[00:09:01] We simply wouldn't have won them and they're worth, you know million plus a year to us and and when it was us versus
[00:09:07] Other competitor, you know our client has told me years later
[00:09:11] Hey, that was the defining factor, you know everything was even we liked all the people are dealing with but you're in Australia
[00:09:16] And that was it so
[00:09:18] That's all building NZD right we don't see that on the Australian ledger, but but without it the entire group would earn a lot less so
[00:09:26] just it's not necessarily a barrier I suppose but it's a
[00:09:29] it's a
[00:09:31] Mindset that says we're gonna look past just the straight numbers for a period of time and allow ourselves to
[00:09:36] To have some wiggle room around how we justify the endeavor and then whether or not it's worthwhile
[00:09:43] That sort of that sort of mindset things very interesting
[00:09:47] And it would go against most small businesses wouldn't that natural
[00:09:52] You've got got control of your
[00:09:54] You know, let's just say it's that typical 40 to 70 person small business is usually when people start to look to go to go across ditch
[00:10:04] We're still not that mature in the way that we probably run our finances
[00:10:09] on our own entity in our own country led alone then that mental shift to
[00:10:15] Think about it differently in a different country
[00:10:20] And the exchange rate would be interesting because that that would impact you
[00:10:25] You're basically paying more money to come across here than the other way around. It's probably easier to come from Australia
[00:10:31] You go to New Zealand
[00:10:33] Absolutely, it is the other way
[00:10:35] Definitely just on that sort of maturity piece so
[00:10:38] Andrew
[00:10:40] Hits up a group called London Green Group and there's a couple of other companies in that group
[00:10:44] And so even though at the time that I joined like why we only had about 20 people
[00:10:50] It it was running a very efficient and mature way
[00:10:54] And Andrew has always been very good with his financial management. So
[00:10:59] You know, we were lucky in that while like while look like a small company really it was run as a
[00:11:04] Slightly bigger more mature way and now we've got 65 staff with with like wire and
[00:11:09] You know the same thing remains true today, but we did have a slight advantage there because you're right
[00:11:13] Yeah for a 20 person company, typically it would be quite a big endeavor to take on all that additional overhead
[00:11:21] Going back to what you said earlier on about like building the network and having
[00:11:26] Investing a lot more in
[00:11:28] Local knowledge like if you were to do this again
[00:11:31] How would you how would you go about it? I
[00:11:35] Would start the podcast from day one
[00:11:38] Honestly, it's been it's been ridiculous. So it sort of gets into a slightly different
[00:11:43] I think this would be true of of
[00:11:45] Any podcast I think if it's done well where an unintended consequence is the people who you have on as guests who are just good people who
[00:11:53] You know are just happy to share their knowledge and introduce you to other good people and you know
[00:11:58] People didn't really know who we were
[00:12:00] To any great degree until we started the podcast and then you know
[00:12:03] I'd finish a conversation like with you and you said hey
[00:12:05] I think this is people should talk to and then they say hey
[00:12:06] There's some people we should talk to and then when we have you on we have Nigel more
[00:12:11] We the latest episode has him on you know when you've got
[00:12:15] Hundreds of MSPs as clients and that's our target market and they see us essentially talking to influences really which is what it is
[00:12:21] Right's influence of marketing and and they suddenly go okay
[00:12:25] Well, they can't be complete bullshit because they're right next to those people we trust to know and and so legitimizes the brand far faster than
[00:12:32] Individual meetings or adwords campaigns or you know stall at a at a conference or whatever
[00:12:38] It's actually seeing oh, I think I kind of know that person because I've seen them talk about stuff enough times
[00:12:43] They're talking to people I trust
[00:12:45] That person who I trust is promoting the episode they're in with them. It just it really creates that network. So
[00:12:53] That would be the the one thing I would have done way faster
[00:12:56] and
[00:12:59] Yeah, I actually had someone
[00:13:03] Guy mark the CEO of that cello in organization in New Zealand which which telco which hasn't come over here
[00:13:08] And he was saying to me the other day when I met with them that
[00:13:11] The Australian
[00:13:13] Telco landscape is littered with the corpses of New Zealand businesses that tried to come over here
[00:13:18] And he's absolutely right
[00:13:20] But I do think that is because they came over as New Zealand businesses
[00:13:24] If you if you put your feet on the ground and you go, I'm in Australia
[00:13:27] I'm in the Australian market
[00:13:28] I need to get to know it and I want to be a part of it not compete with it necessarily
[00:13:32] But be in it and be a part of it. I just think that's that's the mindset
[00:13:38] I'm curious like
[00:13:41] Obviously, it's trying to deal with very closely aligned culturally but
[00:13:47] You did mention a few times there are some there are differences obviously in the language of specifics, but
[00:13:53] What other what other cultural differences are there?
[00:13:58] We are quite similar
[00:13:59] I don't I don't know how many countries you'd find that are as similar as we are but I think that
[00:14:03] People are pro kill and you find that between Queensland, New South Wales, Victoria, right?
[00:14:07] And then in Christchurch, New Zealand, I find that particularly pro kill. That's again a market
[00:14:12] We're doing well and now because we have someone on the ground who went to school there who knows the people and you know
[00:14:16] Elliot does a great job down there
[00:14:18] but I
[00:14:20] Don't know if there's it's actually a similarity and that both sides are pro kill and somewhat defensive of their patch
[00:14:26] You know so quote unquote, whatever that is
[00:14:29] but that in itself makes each each
[00:14:32] territory quite unique and I mean your dad and Tessie right and
[00:14:36] And you've got people in different markets. You must see the same thing. It's it's very
[00:14:41] Yeah, tighten it little communities
[00:14:43] It is it says the who you know, it's yeah
[00:14:47] If they're mates of mates then well, they must be good type type of attitude against back to the network of
[00:14:54] and
[00:14:55] No knowing people and and building that sort of credibility
[00:14:59] Yeah, I do think there's a presence thing
[00:15:02] It's not just a throw throw your product product out to market people
[00:15:07] genuinely want relationships
[00:15:10] They do but I think I think
[00:15:13] One one difference is probably what I touched on before though is they do think New Zealand business people
[00:15:19] For whatever reason, maybe it's that whole number eight wire mentality that we like to think of ourselves as having in New Zealand
[00:15:25] But uh, a less risk averse they will go with a new brand. They will try a
[00:15:31] Smaller business if they feel that the people are legitimate and the product is a good fit
[00:15:35] In Australia, I just find that and again, I think this is changing a bit and I don't want to over generalize but but certainly
[00:15:41] Historically, I think there has been a preference to stick with the the known the tried the true kind of thing
[00:15:47] Which has made it harder for new interest to come in and get that sort of initial
[00:15:52] purchase
[00:15:53] In the territory they're trying to nail
[00:15:55] Did you think that's true?
[00:15:59] Because we pack states a challenger right
[00:16:02] Yeah, like I think um
[00:16:04] Look, I think both both of us are both very innovative cultures
[00:16:09] I think New Zealand being smaller is a lot more open to new things
[00:16:14] But on a global scale
[00:16:16] Australia and New Zealand are way ahead of trying given something to go
[00:16:19] Compared to like the u.s. Or the me or that kind of thing
[00:16:23] So I think in like as you get microcosms
[00:16:26] I do see New Zealanders are much more more innovative than Australia
[00:16:31] Probably just because of the bigger market
[00:16:33] We've got that there's more impacts to just diving in and give something a go compared to um, New Zealand because you have to
[00:16:42] Be more innovative. I think that's what drives the same difference from us to like a me or to
[00:16:47] To to North America as well
[00:16:49] I wonder if that's a byproduct also of just the size of the economy a lot of New Zealand businesses even our
[00:16:55] Big businesses for New Zealand are actually quite small
[00:16:58] You know the definition of enterprise has to be different between the two countries because we just don't have enough of those big ones
[00:17:03] The bigger the company the more bureaucratic the more boxes need to be ticked
[00:17:06] That that doesn't necessarily it does slow things down a bit
[00:17:09] But it probably also puts a different lens on a and a more risk-averse lens on a decision to choose a vendor
[00:17:16] I think so I did a um little thing the other week around the business the numbers of businesses
[00:17:22] between Australia and New Zealand and I think there's only like
[00:17:27] I can't remember off my top of my head, but there's only like two two thousand eight hundred businesses in New Zealand or above 100 people
[00:17:34] Wow, okay. Yeah. So, okay. I feel I feel my points validated, which is good. I think um
[00:17:40] Oh, actually just slight change your subject
[00:17:42] Just um, I wrote down a couple things here that actually go back to your point
[00:17:45] What challenges do you have to overcome?
[00:17:47] Two more one travel budget because holy crap you do a lot of travel
[00:17:51] The amount of times when I was running and I still we've got big enough now that I've got some great people doing a lot of
[00:17:56] the running around over in New Zealand for us, but um, I
[00:18:00] For the last probably 17 years
[00:18:02] I've been in New Zealand one month a one week out of each month on average
[00:18:05] Right and that that adds up so you're gonna have a travel budget
[00:18:08] And the second one is time of day coverage when you're trying to cover everything from w a through to blumen and vicargual
[00:18:14] Albeit New Zealand's got the one time zone. So I don't know why I said that
[00:18:17] Uh, you really have to think about your scheduling where people are based time of day coverage
[00:18:21] So that is that is something that gets harder. You you have to um,
[00:18:25] satisfy the customer service expectations of more people in more places. So
[00:18:30] Yeah, that's that's from time to time being a tricky proposition
[00:18:34] That's a big investment, isn't it? Like it's a this it's high risk high reward
[00:18:39] I guess if you don't
[00:18:41] If you don't get it right because you like like you said, well all of a sudden you're extending the support hours that can be
[00:18:48] That could help you get a lot more deals
[00:18:50] Like you highlighted before or before you get you've got some clients in New Zealand signed up because there's Australian presence
[00:18:57] It allows you to provide more coverage all of that kind of stuff
[00:19:00] And that's probably intangible
[00:19:02] He says you do that intangible data that you can't quite
[00:19:06] Quite represent just from a PNL. Yeah, but also it's like you throw more people at it. It costs a lot more
[00:19:15] It's be the chicken and egg thing and that's probably the difficulty for smaller businesses to think about
[00:19:22] Extending over the ditch either way
[00:19:24] I think people can smell bullshit too, right?
[00:19:25] If you say I'm in Australia as a New Zealand business and you have a PO box somewhere out on your website
[00:19:30] People like yeah, sure buddy
[00:19:32] Yeah, I won 300 number and a PO box does not an Australian business make
[00:19:36] So you really do need to invest in the people the offices the capabilities the
[00:19:42] All of that right?
[00:19:43] And one thing we said from the outset was we're going to ensure that we have uniform capabilities across both sides of the Tasman
[00:19:49] So if we have a person from Australia or New Zealand come to us saying can you do you see can you do, you know
[00:19:55] Trans Tasman protected fiber. Can you do, you know?
[00:19:58] Intermetro
[00:20:00] Predict it back all the answers. Yes. So we just we didn't want to have to have awkward sales conversations based on location
[00:20:05] So you're right. It's an investment if you want to do it well
[00:20:10] I also think though there's an opportunity to be smart about it, which I definitely
[00:20:14] Didn't think about earlier enough. I kind of hate myself for this because it's so kind of obvious and retrospect
[00:20:20] but don't come to a market and
[00:20:22] Go the smartest players to compete head on with everyone who's already doing this particular thing
[00:20:26] Think about as a county coming in from a different place. What can you offer in that market that isn't currently offered there and easy to say?
[00:20:34] how does it do I guess I'll give an example where
[00:20:38] as a
[00:20:39] telco in the Australian market would be stupid to go
[00:20:42] Hey, you know what we can do beat all the Australian telcos in Australia where they've had a 10-year head start
[00:20:47] They've got DCs in every place
[00:20:49] Amazing, you know tier one nbn poise
[00:20:52] 121 nbn poise like we're not going to beat that. So what can we be the New Zealand supplier of choice for Australian telcos?
[00:20:57] Build them an a ud if they want it and zd if they want it, you know
[00:21:00] Be super flexible with how we do it have people on the ground who can meet with their people who understand the market provide
[00:21:06] Really quality content that talks them through exactly what the New Zealand market is like what each acronym means
[00:21:11] You know, what is the tc4 equivalent the nbn a year equivalent?
[00:21:15] You can own that right and I don't think there's a lot of other in New Zealand businesses doing that
[00:21:18] Well, at least that I've seen and I'm definitely biased so take that with a great assault
[00:21:23] But you know, that's an example of where you can come into a new market
[00:21:27] Succeed and again wish it did earlier, but it's paying off now and and and
[00:21:33] Work with the market rather than against it and and not be seen as someone that everyone needs to kind of fob off
[00:21:38] So um, yeah, that's that's a key learning
[00:21:42] I think that's a very very important one because
[00:21:46] Yeah, I suppose as you
[00:21:48] Expand not just an expansion. Yeah having to take in scale into account as well
[00:21:53] It's like what actually is your
[00:21:55] You know usp
[00:21:55] Goodness and what value you're providing because you might have that smaller market and you've taken that's how we built from but
[00:22:04] Maybe that's someone's going to take you to the next the next level of business growth either
[00:22:09] Yeah, and I think when you when you do have that sort of usp you can create
[00:22:13] Far more compelling content and I think you know content marketing and growth marketing general
[00:22:18] Which I think relies on that sort of demand gen
[00:22:20] Content play it's so much easier to stand out from the crowd when your content focuses on a niche
[00:22:26] And and you know, again, you're not trying to be everything to everyone and what is already a fairly saturated market. So
[00:22:31] Um, and you know, even ad words, right? What what what search terms you look into capture gets way easier
[00:22:37] lower cost, you know, you're not fighting for nbn is a search term, you know
[00:22:41] Uh, you're looking for nz wholesale or something or a u wholesale for nz searches or whatever
[00:22:47] So, yeah, there's definitely some um some advantages to doing that and it's it's far more cost effective for businesses on a limited budget
[00:22:54] Um, I would say though that we've already done that so probably any other tokyo listening. Don't worry about it now
[00:22:58] It's done. So yeah
[00:23:03] That's it. Yeah pro monopolies like why
[00:23:07] Yeah, so if you were to um, you know, if you were to open up another branch trying to get into a
[00:23:13] Into a market like you yeah starting in Australia again
[00:23:17] Spoken about that boots on the ground the parochial type stuff
[00:23:22] What sort of people would you start off having in?
[00:23:26] In that presence
[00:23:28] um, I
[00:23:31] I guess I I think you've got to have
[00:23:34] Two really, I don't know which one I'd pick first really but I think you've got to have someone who can meet
[00:23:39] in a pre-sales technical capacity to talk with some confidence around
[00:23:43] um, you know
[00:23:45] Customers are quite honest the problem they're trying to solve and how this this actually scope it is this fit for purpose
[00:23:50] And that just builds so much trust like again. We're we're a channel focused entity
[00:23:54] So so the people we're talking to are smart. They they know bullshit
[00:23:58] They already know quite a lot about the products what they're looking for is just that step up
[00:24:01] Okay, I know the features yet, but my customers requirements are x in this case
[00:24:05] Well that particular feature cut the mustard and you need someone who can have that conversation in person
[00:24:11] And then the second one is someone who is likeable uh a good salesperson
[00:24:16] They don't have to be technically brilliant, but they have to do what they say they'll do when they say they'll do it
[00:24:21] Be reliable and likable and and they are the people who ultimately will go and make sure the relationships are sound because people buy from people
[00:24:29] Um, and also that that pre-sales technical person ideally shouldn't be a decade either
[00:24:32] Obviously no one should be uh, it's important that when you're a company with very few people the people you have
[00:24:38] They need to be likable and they need to be invested and they need to be motivated
[00:24:41] And how you do that as a business is obviously up to you
[00:24:43] But there's a whole range of ways to do that through incentives of various kinds
[00:24:47] You know, I think we you know that sort of what you're talking about
[00:24:50] We've like someone that's building the network for something more sales
[00:24:53] Relationship side and that sort of technical that technical person
[00:24:57] And from my experience, I think you need to invest in both to start like I don't yeah
[00:25:03] I think you're 100 right like you could start with this the salesperson then
[00:25:08] Build all this network and there's no one to back them up
[00:25:11] Or you've got to be very clever in the way that you back them up
[00:25:15] Um
[00:25:16] On the flip side if you've got that more technical person, they're not going to build the networks
[00:25:21] So you're relying on a lot of people to come come to them
[00:25:24] and without that
[00:25:27] Marketing and the sales a clever sales approach
[00:25:33] You you'll probably get limited amount of people coming to you. I think that's
[00:25:37] That's probably the mistake. I see a lot with
[00:25:41] Businesses expanding into new regions. They lead with one or the other and not realize actually it's both
[00:25:47] Yeah, and I think um
[00:25:49] I think I understand why businesses do it in that they might have a
[00:25:54] A likable sales type going out and trying to leverage the resources they already have in another jurisdiction
[00:26:00] but but they really
[00:26:03] You can't really go past even though I know we do a lot on
[00:26:05] And it sounds like a pre-covid approach
[00:26:07] But I know we do a lot on teams and zoom etc
[00:26:09] But I still think in person first meeting
[00:26:12] Second meeting whatever after a scope and call go see them in person create that that sense of buy-in that sense of trust
[00:26:17] Particularly again where it's a recurring business model packs. It's the same right you guys are in there for the long term
[00:26:23] With your clients who need to have that that establishing and retaining
[00:26:28] A relationship off a solid base. We're the same if you're doing transactional sales
[00:26:32] Okay different probably and I'd be open to push back on that but but certainly for relationship based selling there
[00:26:38] Is that need to go look we're not sort of phoning in support as we need it from some other place
[00:26:42] You're never going to meet this person. I just think there's the need to be there in person
[00:26:47] You know, I am like we're using packs aid as an example because obviously we're the large and we're in the whole region
[00:26:55] We are investing in having local presence around the different states and major cities
[00:27:01] Um, because it's that you need some form of relationship
[00:27:06] And I think you probably don't need to worry about having too much expertise locally
[00:27:12] Like he's made as an example. I always I can always be flown in if it's that important to go see a partner
[00:27:19] And I think that's the there's that sort of balanced approach of finding what
[00:27:24] What's the base level of presence you need and then
[00:27:28] and then work at how do you manage the
[00:27:30] the other
[00:27:32] communication and interactions in the business and
[00:27:36] Like you touched on earlier
[00:27:38] travel budgets are super important
[00:27:41] And they're not small. I actually think the other thing I didn't touch on is just culturally within your own business
[00:27:46] When I joined light wire, it was a business of roughly 20 people all in one office in hamilton
[00:27:52] Since I've joined light wire. We now have people across two countries in about eight cities
[00:27:56] and trying to keep a sense of
[00:28:00] cultural
[00:28:01] Alignment people actually knowing who the hell they work with in a company where we deeply care about that
[00:28:05] That's that's being difficult as well
[00:28:07] Not difficult to the point that we haven't overcome it. But for example head office when when I started we had a
[00:28:13] A gym on site and a full-time PT
[00:28:15] That that people got to use during
[00:28:18] During business hours, you know andrew as a business owner has always been very focused on on
[00:28:23] Culture and well-being so he's done a lot of quite
[00:28:25] Progressive things
[00:28:27] So then people when I started in australia was like, okay, we'll pay for your gym remotely
[00:28:31] And we'll introduce a well-being allowance and stuff
[00:28:33] That's all great that aligns people makes no one feel like they're missing out because of where they're based
[00:28:37] That's kind of a big tech. But the next one is
[00:28:40] You know, do people actually ever see each other? Do they know who they're working with?
[00:28:43] I've worked with people for a long time and I've liked them. That's fine
[00:28:46] But when I met them in person for the first time
[00:28:49] Over a coffee over a beer whatever I felt like I actually connected
[00:28:52] And and I think that's super important and we try and get everybody together twice a year june christmas
[00:28:57] We have light-wide days when we get everyone there where we have a couple of days with a particular focus
[00:29:02] Last time it was the the five dysfunctions going through what they mean how we avoid them
[00:29:06] Doing sessions with I think it was about 15 to 20 people at a time led by scott our chief operating officer and I
[00:29:12] And and you know that that that's super important
[00:29:15] And and it is a challenge and it does take constant focus
[00:29:18] And it does cost money because you got to fly people around and put them up and all that kind of stuff
[00:29:21] But made it so you can't get around it
[00:29:25] Yeah, and that too having multiple people everywhere goes back to the time zone challenge
[00:29:31] To family got limited time where most of your team crossover to interact with each other on virtually
[00:29:38] So you gotta be very deliberate about
[00:29:41] Hold formal meetings and things like that and and not
[00:29:46] Not going into that sort of time creeper people working long hours to cover
[00:29:51] Time zones because that's the only time you can talk to each other. That's a good point too
[00:29:55] I actually work. I've always worked somewhere between 6 30 and 7 starts and I finished you know three or three thirty
[00:30:01] To make sure that I'm keeping in touch as best I can with people on both sides
[00:30:05] But yeah, we've definitely got um, yeah
[00:30:08] Dale looks having sucks. Basically. It's so confusing
[00:30:11] Every every meeting we've got so yeah, that that is a challenge
[00:30:14] And I don't even think we've nailed that you know because you're constantly adjusting or balancing between customer requirements
[00:30:20] team communication requirements the fact that people enrolls like mine like a head of service and provisioning over here
[00:30:27] Um, uh, one of our new work architects based over here over here obviously being southeast Queensland
[00:30:32] Uh, you know, they have a responsibility for clients on both sides
[00:30:35] There are bdms in the south island that will be like hey
[00:30:38] I need this new work architect to be on a call at this time. Well, okay
[00:30:42] That turns out that's 7 a.m. Brisbane time. So you're right. That's that's a challenge and and honestly, you know
[00:30:47] It's a it's a work in progress to be honest
[00:30:50] Yeah, I've been doing for a long time in my role and it's
[00:30:55] Every year daylight savings hits and
[00:30:58] Yeah, just if Queensland could just get it together and stop worrying about the curtains fading or the cows going to the milk
[00:31:04] The way of the issue is or just everyone stopped doing it. I don't care which just pick a lane and do it. That'd be great
[00:31:10] I think as our economies evolve we're probably gonna have to get a lot more aligned
[00:31:16] between especially between Australia and New Zealand at least let alone south east Asia because yeah
[00:31:21] It's not just time zones with daylight savings. So also public holidays, right?
[00:31:26] Like each state has their own different public holidays. New Zealand Australia have different public holidays
[00:31:30] We just say king's birthday yesterday. We're recording. Well, what's the day today? Tuesday the something uh the
[00:31:34] 7th is that the 7th day?
[00:31:37] 6 6 there you are it's close. Yeah, so yesterday was the king's birthday in new zealand, right and not here
[00:31:41] in in in Australia, so
[00:31:44] Yeah, we had pretty much most of the company off um and that's another thing too if the if
[00:31:48] There was genuine like domestic
[00:31:50] Travel between the two countries that would make a lot of people's lives easier
[00:31:54] It would be so much more efficient for so many people in so many businesses. So I think that genuinely is something that needs to be looked at
[00:32:03] So you've been doing you've been doing this and you know, like you said, you know, probably in the past six to 12 months
[00:32:09] you've been
[00:32:10] being a lot more confident and
[00:32:13] Probably starting to reap the rewards like what now you're on the other side of
[00:32:19] A lot of challenges. There's always going to be challenges
[00:32:22] What do you see? How do you see that you you're going to grow and leverage that?
[00:32:28] The the fact that you're across tassel
[00:32:31] um
[00:32:32] What we're finding is that we have fairly large australian clients now that
[00:32:38] You know don't have the scale to go full into fully into new zealand. They're looking for a partner
[00:32:42] We've got a lot of that and vice versa
[00:32:44] Being the australian partner australian supplier of choice for new zealand entities and that that's obviously a nice natural fit
[00:32:52] We we've actually got better in recent times and
[00:32:56] Just simplifying our messaging too, which is really making it easy for people to find us and understand what we actually think we do well
[00:33:02] So yeah in terms of how we're going to leverage it and what we're going to do
[00:33:06] I see us being very busy. We're having
[00:33:09] Most days now i've got several inbound leads. Um, a lot of it coming from australia to be fair, which is fantastic
[00:33:14] um
[00:33:15] I think we're going to to see
[00:33:18] Um people looking to do things as efficiently as possible in a tough economic environment and our job is to
[00:33:25] explain to people why
[00:33:27] Operating on both sides of the tasman with our assistance is the smartest thing to do or is a smart thing to do
[00:33:32] And how we can make it um as profitable and low risk as possible
[00:33:36] So yeah, that that's the the focus over the next six or 12 months and obviously, you know
[00:33:42] Keeping uh keeping parity around the um around the products base. There's there's still a lot happening everyone
[00:33:48] Particularly in the uc spaces is moving pretty quickly. So gotta make sure we don't rest on our laurels there
[00:33:53] um, but yeah
[00:33:55] Yeah, it's it's a tough it's a tough one at the moment because everyone keeps talking about this looming recession
[00:33:59] But I don't see any sign of it. Um in terms of purchasing patents from from clients
[00:34:04] Um, and I see a lot of people signing a lot of uh, you know new terms and new services and
[00:34:10] Don't know
[00:34:12] Did I see a question? Was that the question you're asking?
[00:34:15] Okay, good. Good. Good. I just started talking then and sort of kind of forgot what I was talking about. So sorry
[00:34:20] You're used to asking the questions
[00:34:22] Yeah, I mean out of my comfort zone. This is not my space
[00:34:25] Uh, but you're right. It's it's I actually think I don't know. I think it's easier
[00:34:28] It's weird. You sit at the outset. It's easy being the guest
[00:34:30] I think it's easier being the host because as long as you've read done enough research to ask the questions
[00:34:34] Then set them free by being a guest you feel
[00:34:37] less like you've got to say something smart weirdly because
[00:34:42] You're assumed to know what you're talking about because you've been asked the question. I don't know. It's a weird
[00:34:46] It's a weird space. I'm still still figuring it out
[00:34:49] Oh
[00:34:51] We we could talk a lot about this and this is very much a subject that i'm very keen on because I can see
[00:34:57] not just um
[00:34:59] Australian Australian and New Zealand companies going each way over the ditch
[00:35:03] I do think both Australian and New Zealand need to look a lot more into southeast Asia
[00:35:07] um
[00:35:08] Singapore is a really interesting market
[00:35:12] Singapore Thailand in Indonesia
[00:35:16] Philippines Malaysia
[00:35:18] They're all massive markets. They're all bigger than Australia and New Zealand combined except for Singapore
[00:35:24] Or their GDP is obviously a lot larger, but in terms of population sizes
[00:35:30] We've so we've got a lot of opportunity and like you said, we do a lot of innovation
[00:35:35] So I want to see I want to sort of build this um thought process up and
[00:35:40] This ecosystem across packs eight to get
[00:35:43] Our business is bigger across the region
[00:35:46] but if you were to
[00:35:49] Now looking back in your crystal ball and knowing what you know now
[00:35:54] If you were to start up in a in a new region
[00:35:57] How much how much would you be budgeting to invest in into doing into doing it properly?
[00:36:04] Like forgetting money is an issue and you just said I had x amount of money to start realistically
[00:36:09] What would that what would you think you'd need to do that?
[00:36:13] Uh, you mean you'd be looking at better part easy, you know 300k for salaries year one
[00:36:17] You'd need to presuming you're in a telco type environment the infrastructure, right?
[00:36:21] You've got to actually have some DCs that easily be smashing 10k a month and rack fees cross connects
[00:36:27] transit then you got to get your certification presumably or your your msa's in place with your
[00:36:34] Vendors over there. So whichever market it is. So
[00:36:37] I hate to think I mean if you do that within being here, you that's that's
[00:36:40] Several hundred thousand and probably six to nine months and that's probably just to get your first poi
[00:36:44] live so yeah, I mean
[00:36:47] Uh
[00:36:48] You'd you'd burn through
[00:36:50] You'd burn through a million thinking your first year or so. I don't know
[00:36:54] It'd be significant and again, it's going to vary by market by by industry segments
[00:37:00] By your ability to
[00:37:02] To relocate existing people to a new market while they continue to fulfill functions in the market
[00:37:07] They just came from you know because you can't move people around we've actually done that quite a lot
[00:37:10] In Australia, I think we've got one two three
[00:37:14] Three or I feel like I'm missing out someone at least three people who now live in Australia that were with us in New Zealand
[00:37:21] Oh that we have a fourth plan. So that's right. So so very much that that helps a lot if you if you want to decrease costs
[00:37:27] But yeah, look it's it's absolutely a
[00:37:30] A burning pit of money year one
[00:37:33] The the thing is well, okay
[00:37:35] That's fine. No one minds spending money as long as there's a return and so how quickly can you can
[00:37:41] Convince yourself that that return is going to come there and and again, I just go back to
[00:37:46] Engraing yourself in the market
[00:37:48] Um legitimize your brand as best you can
[00:37:50] Don't take on the market head on find a niche
[00:37:53] And and then you know create content that that that establishes you as an expert within that niche and
[00:37:59] It makes it easy for people to find you and educate someone the problem that you
[00:38:03] Uniquely can can solve and they may not have even realized they had yet. I'll give you one example. So the other day I um
[00:38:09] I met with a guy. Oh, I won't drop names because you know him but but just just in case you just want me to say um, but you know
[00:38:17] He he said to me look we we've had so many opportunities in New Zealand
[00:38:20] And I just didn't even know where to start and he's like so now this makes that easy, right?
[00:38:24] And and this is a company with like a hundred plus people a hundred plus staff
[00:38:28] well established
[00:38:29] You know quality operator, but it's just
[00:38:32] When you have opportunities incrementally coming to you. Oh, here's a new zilla opportunity
[00:38:36] Yeah, not too hard. Don't worry about that things. I went. Oh, yeah, too hard. Don't worry about that
[00:38:39] But if you actually take them bit by bit, it's a huge it's a huge opportunity. You're missing but people again don't know where to start
[00:38:44] you can
[00:38:45] By going and having lunch and dinner with people and not trying to compete with him head on but saying what problem
[00:38:49] Can I help you solve? Here's something we do that others don't
[00:38:52] Man if I had my time again, that would have been my focus day one just just that
[00:38:57] I had some gold no bias and
[00:38:59] the budgeting thing just
[00:39:02] Brought that up to sparks and thoughts from people of it probably is going to cost you a couple million
[00:39:07] so there's two ways to go about it is
[00:39:10] Food, strap it and work it out
[00:39:12] The other thing is acquisition. It seems to be something that we don't think about
[00:39:17] Maybe if I'm an msp in Australia, maybe I just acquire a New Zealand msp
[00:39:21] And I've already got local presidents and obviously that comes with its own challenges
[00:39:25] But that's a different way to
[00:39:27] Go to market very very legitimate absolutely absolutely
[00:39:31] And I do think if you ask about trends earlier on when I didn't get to as I do think we're going to start to see
[00:39:39] NZ
[00:39:41] MSPs and telcos and we're probably seeing the MSP space to be fair the telco space less so but certainly the telco space
[00:39:46] I think we're gonna start to see Australian telcos buying up New Zealand ones and New Zealand telcos buying up
[00:39:52] small to medium-sized
[00:39:54] Australian ones as well because you're right. That's a way a good way to get existing revenue solve a problem go for
[00:40:00] But I do think the multiples at the moment are still relatively high. So
[00:40:04] yeah
[00:40:06] well
[00:40:07] Wrapping it up. What's if if you could leave everyone with
[00:40:12] A final thought what's the what's the thing you'd most want people to take away from this conversation today?
[00:40:18] What would that be?
[00:40:20] What works in one place probably won't work in the other?
[00:40:23] No one cares about what you do in the other country in our case. No one is really cared about what we did in New Zealand
[00:40:29] They care about what you can do here. So go talk to people understand the market
[00:40:35] Listen learn don't come in with guns blazing thinking that you know
[00:40:38] What is going to work and what you're best to do
[00:40:42] Set time aside to to listen and educate yourself that would be and also by the way
[00:40:47] Probably don't be as young as I was when I first started doing it because I definitely thought I had all the answers
[00:40:52] Or just didn't want to admit that I didn't have all the answers. So being older and
[00:40:55] And so at least a little bit wiser is also a good thing
[00:40:59] Oh, that is that's some sage advice and
[00:41:02] I really appreciate you jumping on brendan and no doubt we'll have another conversation in the future and
[00:41:08] learn from more lessons that you've had in the
[00:41:12] In the future, I'll have to get you back on our podcast next. It's my turn, but no it's been fun mate. Thank you for having me on
[00:41:18] Thanks very much