Invest in Yourself Before You Blame the Company

[00:00:00] I hired a coach immediately and it was expensive and I didn't really have the money. At the time I was going, there's a lot of money and I didn't really have it to invest, but I thought, okay, I'll try it out. I can't calculate how many times over that has repaid me the ROI and that's off the charts. My biggest piece of advice to salespeople, Walter, is invest in yourself. Don't complain and say, oh, my company never trains me. They don't do this. They don't do that. Well, guess what? Nobody cares about your career as much as you do. And if your company's not investing you in training, invest in yourself.

[00:00:30] Go buy some books. Go get a coach. Get a mentor. I mean, you've got so many options today that you never used to have. It was never this easy. So there's no excuse because at the end of the day, like I said, nobody cares about your career like you do. Welcome to Sales and Cigars, the podcast for entrepreneurs where the only smoke we blow is cigar smoke. I'm your host, Walter Crosby with Helix Sales Development.

[00:00:56] My guest today is a fellow podcaster, Sales Pop, and Chief Strategy Officer for Pipeliner Sales. It's a great CRM for that mid-market space. This episode is one of those episodes where I ask one question and then I realize 30 minutes later, we've had this amazing conversation about sales leadership, spin selling,

[00:01:17] being a lonely business, being a sales leader and an entrepreneur, and just being able to reach out and find a coach and a mentor no matter where you are in your career. It's just a great conversation about leadership. So go grab a cigar or cocktail and strap in for another fun episode of Sales and Cigars. Thanks.

[00:01:50] So, John, welcome to Sales and Cigars. I appreciate you taking some time out of your busy schedule. I'm delighted to be here, Walter. Thank you so much for inviting me. This is great. I love the whole setup you have. I appreciate it. I've been a guest on your podcast and this was a little overdue, so I've been looking forward to this.

[00:02:14] I'd like to start off with a question that helps the audience kind of get a sense as to who the guest is. And I get a lot of positive feedback on this. So is there a book that either you reread or you gift a lot in a business set? Yeah, absolutely. It's been selling by Neil Rackham. It's one of the oldest and the best-selling business book of all time.

[00:02:41] And I was fortunate to take over Huthwaite at one stage, which owned the spin-selling IP, which Neil Rackham had originally set up that company, then been bought by a couple of different people. And so that book is profound. But also I got to meet Neil and talk to Neil and do some projects with Neil.

[00:03:03] So kind of a deeper understanding. And I think while there's new methodologies and things have changed, what I like about spin-selling is that it just reinforces at the end of the day that if you ask good questions, if you dig deep, if you really want to uncover what the other person is going through, it's a great model. And it's just a great reminder that great salespeople are great questioners and great listeners.

[00:03:32] Yeah. And in almost equal proportions. Yeah. Because if you don't, if you ask a question, it's sort of like the sideline reporter at a football game. Yeah. They get three questions they want to ask. They're not listening to the answer. They're just waiting to start to talk. Exactly. Unfortunately, salespeople do that too, right?

[00:03:51] I mean, that's yeah. And one of the things about that's been selling book, one of the nicest things is just about teaching you to be patient and remember everything, you know, you know, you're not carrying a hammer, right? So everything isn't a nail. You know, you're trying to sell a product or a service or whatever. And that is not jumping too quickly. Like if I'm having a conversation with you, Walter, and you mentioned something that I have a solution to, I don't dive immediately into providing the solution.

[00:04:20] I dig a little deeper because oftentimes the first thing you come up with may not be the most important, maybe something you could live with. Maybe something you don't, you just happened to mention. Meanwhile, I'm gone into total, you know, selling mode here trying to get it and I'm wasting my time because that's not the compelling reason that you're going to buy. It's sort of the definition of consultative selling, right?

[00:04:42] Is to be patient, to dig into that, go past that surface level pain, go past the you got to get three or four layers deep. Yeah. And it's literally slowing down and listening to what and reacting to what's being said and having a conversation. And active listening, I mean, that's a skill. It's hearing is just a physical thing that happens. You can hear.

[00:05:10] But listening and understanding and processing and validating and asking the person like validating and follow questions. That's the active part that you really need. And I think sometimes, you know, I think virtually it's become another issue, too, is that some salespeople fear silence. Right. So if I ask you a really good question, Walter, and you pause to think, pause to think about it, I just asked you a really good question. Why would I interrupt your thoughts?

[00:05:41] Yeah, it's it's such a it just it's like nails on a chalkboard to me. Right. When I when I somebody asks that good question. And and often the the person you're speaking to will say, wow, that's a that's a good question. Right. And OK, but still shut the hell up. Exactly. Don't step on the question. Let them let it marinate. Right. Exactly. Let them struggle with it.

[00:06:09] It's it's part of the it's part of the process. It's a really, really great point. I was I was doing a coaching call this morning with a salesperson. And it's like when you get into the call, stop thinking about scripts. Stop thinking about all of the stuff. Just listen. And react and have a conversation. Yeah. And just remember, you're talking to human beings with their own.

[00:06:36] You know, they've got the business needs, but they've also got their own. And, you know, they've got their own stuff going on. Who knows how they're tied to this project or whatever it is you're trying to, you know, sell into. So I think you have to you do. You have to listen and be discerning and understand and be empathetic and not not be so focused on yourself. Oh, yeah. It's not about us at all as a salesperson. Right. Curiosity, skepticism, empathy and active listening. Right.

[00:07:01] You bring those four things to a conversation and, you know, spin selling, gap selling, baseline selling, Sandler. Right. They're all great. Yeah. Whatever. Yeah. My only issue with Challenger is it's so fucking hard to do. Get somebody to understand it. Yeah. That's the that's really but it's still the basis of asking the right questions at the right time. It is.

[00:07:31] And that's why I always say, I mean, if you're in sales and you've never been through a training, you've never learned a methodology or whatever, like just pick one. It doesn't really matter. Just pick one. And and don't you don't have to learn it like so you rigidly. It's not a it's not something that has to be executed rigidly. But just learn how to put together how to have a process for how you engage, have a process for how you communicate and have a process for how you conduct, you know, discovery calls, etc. I think it's just a good discipline to have.

[00:08:01] And then you can modify it to your own to your own circumstances. But if you've never if you've never been through training, you never had my my biggest piece of advice to to salespeople, Walter, is invest in yourself. Don't wait around for don't don't complain and say, oh, oh, my company never trains me. They don't do this. They don't do that. Well, guess what? Nobody cares about your career as much as you do. And and if your company is not investing you in training, invest in yourself. Right. Go buy some books. Go get a coach.

[00:08:31] Get a mentor. Take some training on. I mean, you've got so many options today that you never used used to have. Right. It was never this easy. You've got to. So there's no excuse because at the end of the day, like I said, nobody cares about your career like you do. And if you want to get ahead, you've got to be a continuous learner. And I think if you look at the best, best salespeople in the world, they're constantly educating themselves. They're reading books. They're doing things. They're not sitting.

[00:08:58] They're not sitting on their laurels or they're not sitting around waiting for somebody else to give them something. They're doing it for themselves because they know if they want to be the best, then it's up to them to invest in themselves. It's so true. And I hadn't really thought about that in a while. You know, it used to be you buy a book, $15, $20, and you can gain some knowledge and get ahead.

[00:09:20] But today, between YouTube and AI tools, there's so much that you can do for yourself. I mean, sure, a company should. Yeah. They should care. They should be supporting you. They should be coaching. They should be providing training. Absolutely. But it's your career. Yeah, exactly. It's your revenue. It's your income.

[00:09:43] And, you know, if you do that, you're going to be more valuable, whether it be with the company you're with or the next company. And as I would say to people, Walter, is I guarantee you have a hobby, right? I guarantee you have some kind of hobby. And whether, you know, maybe you play golf, maybe you pick a ball, you know. I do martial arts, whatever. I guarantee you invest money in that hobby, right? You know, maybe you get a coach for your golf swing.

[00:10:12] Maybe you're getting, you know, pickleball lessons, whatever it is. That is never going to put bread on your table. Right. Right. But you're prepared to invest in it because you want to be better. But then ask yourself, why aren't you prepared to invest in the thing that does put bread on your table? That's such a good point, right? Especially like golf or tennis or pickleball or whatever. I mean, martial arts. I mean, you could, I mean, it takes a lifetime to master. Exactly.

[00:10:43] To truly master. Well, you never master. You're always a student. That's true. That's why it is a practice. And, you know, I was, I do meditation and I use an app to do that. And it's practice. Yeah. It's never, you're never there. If you get a couple of minutes out of it, right? Where you actually create the environment that you're looking for, that's a win. Yeah.

[00:11:12] You know, even two minutes out of 15 is a win. Absolutely. And you mentioned earlier being on a coaching call with somebody. And that's what I would really recommend is for salespeople is go hire a coach. And yeah, you may say, oh, well, you know, that's a lot of money and everything. But I can tell you from my own experience, like my first executive level job, when I first got onto an executive team at VP level, I hired a coach. I hired a coach immediately and it was expensive and I didn't really have the money.

[00:11:41] At the time I was going, this is a lot of money and I, you know, didn't really have it to invest, but I thought, okay, I'll try it out. And that has, that I can't calculate how many times over that has repaid me the ROI. And that's off the charts because, because the minute I started engaging with the coach, the coach asked me at the time, so what do you want to be? And I said, I want to be the best VP on this team. Right. And, and she goes, well, why don't you want to be the CEO?

[00:12:06] And I said, well, I said, well, yeah, she goes, don't you think you could do that job? And I'm like, yeah, well, I could, I do want to maybe at some stage. And she goes, well, that's what we're going to aim for. Okay. And anyway, long story short, I was CEO of two companies, you know, subsequently to that. But that's the value. And today, you know, hire a coach or at least go find a mentor. I mean, that's the thing I would say, at least go find a mentor. Yeah. And, and they're, they're available.

[00:12:36] I mean, there's a difference between mentors and coaches, but I mean, it's doing something for somebody to push you, um, uh, mastermind groups are, are another thing that, that are, um, uh, popular available. Um, and the right one, it's aligned with what your objectives are, are I, I did, uh, I remember

[00:13:00] I was, I was probably 12 years into my career and I would hear the same commercial on the radio on, when I'm going out to make sales calls, right? I would just hear the same, same guy. And one day I was just like, that discovery call didn't go the way I wanted it to. And I said, screw it. I'm calling Jerry. Right. And I spent money similar to you that I didn't really have.

[00:13:30] And in three months, I mean, I realized that, that ROI in three months and it's just been through the roof and he's still a coach, right? I owe him a phone call as of right now. He called me yesterday to check on me. Um, I mean, it's, it's that thing that, that we do when we're, when we're trying to get better. Yeah. Sharpening the saw. Right. Um, and you know, calculate the money that you spend to get better.

[00:14:00] And there's always an ROI on that. If you're serious about it, right. If you're just doing it to say you're doing it. Um, but it's a, it's a really, it's a really powerful message. No, no, a hundred percent. And it applies to, it applies to sales leaders. It applies to salespeople and it applies to CEOs. I mean, absolutely. Absolutely. Because they're often on an Island. And I think that's, I think that's really an important part of it too, is like whether

[00:14:28] you're a bag carrying, you know, salesperson, their sales leader, CEO, it is, all of those are, are relatively, are lonely positions in many ways. You know, I mean, the, the sales persons out there and they're on there, they're often the only, the only role in the organization where a significant amount of their, uh, compensation is variable. So, um, you know, other people in the company are sitting around you or whatever, virtually they're there. They know their income is predictable, right? They know what's coming next month.

[00:14:58] Maybe there's a bonus at the end of the year, whatever. Most salespeople, their income is not predictable. Uh, so it's a lonely place. So I would say absolutely go find somebody to help you. Sales leaders, true. How many sales leaders are top salespeople promoted into that position and then who struggle? Because again, most companies don't invest in, in management training, not even sales, forget sales leadership training, just basic management training, even, you know, to be able to, um, you know, transition.

[00:15:27] So again, it's a, it's a lonely place. And as you said, CEO, so having these outside people who they don't carry the baggage of having of somebody inside your organization, they don't have any, you know, biases or whatever. Their job is just to help you and a sounding board for you. And it's a great way to be able to talk about things that you can't talk about internally in the organization, but that you need to bounce off somebody. And, and like I said, salesperson, sales leaders, they're all relatively lonely positions at the end of the day.

[00:15:57] Yeah. Lonely is a, is a good descriptor. Um, and having somebody that challenges your thinking, um, is I'm, I'm lucky. I have, I've always had coaches and mentors. Um, and, but I've, I've curated that, um, and they come from the weirdest places when you're not expecting it. Um, but the, the, I, I'm lucky because my wife understands what I do.

[00:16:26] She thinks I'm crazy. Um, she doesn't understand how you can, you know, do what we do, right? Where you, you go out and you have to create something every day. Um, there's no consistency to it, right? Unless you're consistently prospecting. Um, but, but she understands the mindset in the sense that she appreciates what I go through.

[00:16:52] So, and she thinks differently than I do, right? I'm a live on the edge kind of guy and she's more of like risk adverse. So I can, I can say things to her and get a perspective that balances me out. That brings me closer to the, to the middle that maybe brings me off of that edge. Like maybe that's, it's a little too crazy of an idea. Right.

[00:17:17] Uh, and, but not everybody has a spouse that, that you can talk to like that. So I consider myself lucky there. Um, but you gotta have somebody in your space to, to be able to, to work with. Yeah. Yeah. No, I was going to say, and the other thing I would say today is, um, to really be up on your business acumen because I mean that that's a really important part. I think today is that you can have really good quality business conversations and you can

[00:17:45] be a business equal of whoever you're talking to because you're bringing knowledge from you, from whatever you do, from customers you serve and all of that, but really understanding the business of business and the business of your customer. Because I think once upon a time, some salespeople could get away without really being that savvy about business. You know, it was all about just close new. I don't think you can't get away with that today. You need that business acumen. You, you really do it. And I don't, you don't need an MBA. No, no, no.

[00:18:15] And you don't need to be high finance, but you need to understand how business operates and you need to, especially a sales funnel and then how that impacts finance, how that impacts manufacturing and operations and service and, and, and the like, and, and be able to navigate those conversations. And again, if you do that with a certain amount of curiosity, you really get to learn each

[00:18:41] time you, you, you, you engage with a prospect or, or a customer, because you're going to get a different perspective from a, maybe a different industry or an adjacent industry. And then you start to be a sponge. Exactly. And that's where you become valuable because if I talk to you, Walter, and I've talked to 10 of your competitors and I know what's going on and I've gotten their different perspectives, I have something of value to share with you. Something that you don't have, because you probably most likely have not had the same type of

[00:19:10] conversations with 10 of your competitors that I may have had. And that's where I think people need to be more confident. That's why I say about being a business equal, like you're coming, you're coming with the product or service to solve a problem or to create an opportunity, but you're also coming with real insights that you've gathered and that are valuable. So even your initial conversations should, you should look on those as, as very valuable. You know, you are bringing value to the equation. And it's almost a mandate these days, right?

[00:19:39] Anthony Aireno talks about doing an executive briefing. And I love the perspective in, I forget which book it was, but it's like, what keeps you up at night? That's not the question, right? Here's what should be keeping you up at night and sharing with them what's around the corner, right? Like you've talked to their competitors. This is what's going on in the world, right? You don't have to name names.

[00:20:08] Giveaway secrets, but this is what's happening. And if you can provide that insight, right? That doesn't guarantee you business, but you get credibility. You get them to listen. And then maybe there's something else that you can add where they have a problem that you can help them solve. But that's so it's, it's, it's definitely the 1970s and eighties, right?

[00:20:34] You know, the salespeople had all the information and the prospect had to come to you. It's not the case anymore. No, but I have a great story to tell you though. This is this little outline thing. So as I said, I was fortunate enough to run Huthway and I was fortunate enough to be able to have Neil Rackham every so often, like I would just contract him and I would say, come on, help me with something. And one of the things that he's off, he says in his speeches all the time, or he used

[00:21:01] to always say is that if you're, if you're, you should be able, your sales call should be of such high quality that the other person would actually pay you for the call, not for the service, right? And I always thought that was a really, a great way of putting it, right? It was a great way of putting it, but I always considered that somewhat conceptual, right? So there was one of our, one of our largest customers, a global brand, I'm not going to

[00:21:26] name them, had, when I was at Huthway had contacted us and they were, they were having big issues between sales and marketing. And so what I suggested was, I said, I'll come, I'll bring Neil with me. We'll just meet you for an hour or two with both, with the sales and marketing group. We'll just have a, we'll just have a conversation. We'll see where it goes. Right. And so Neil and I traveled, uh, and the CEO had the, you know, the executives in marketing, the executives in sales.

[00:21:55] So there's about 20 people in the room and Neil, Neil and I. And so we go through this process and we, we kick off the, we kick off the call and immediately it just descends into your fault. No, it's your fault. No, it's your fault. Your leads suck. No, you can't sell. Well, yeah, and this kind of stuff. And so we, pretty quickly, the, the issue was there right for the CEO to see, right? So complete misalignment, distrust, et cetera.

[00:22:21] So we talked through all of this and every, and we came to a good, uh, outcome and, you know, and, and to progress and all of that. And then at the end of the, at the end of the meeting, I just had a thought for a second. I thought, you know, I'm going to do an exercise here where I'm going to test the thesis. Right. So I said, I just looked at Neil and I said, Neil, I'm just going to test something that you say all the time. And he was kind of looking at me going, what are you doing? And I turned to CEO in front of everybody, I turned to the CEO and I said, has this been

[00:22:50] a valuable exercise for you today? And he was saying, oh yeah, very valuable. This is great, you know, and everything. And I said, okay. I said, if we sent you an invoice for this meeting, would you pay it just for the meeting? And he stopped for a moment and then he was like, you know, I probably would. In fact, no, I would. And so I turned to Neil and I was saying, there you should see, I just proved your, your thesis in real time. So, but that just shows you that if you, you can, if you, you, that should be your goal

[00:23:20] to create that much value in, even in a discovery call or whatever, that that person that literally, you know, you could almost charge for it. Sure. Yeah. I love that. That's a great story. And getting like, when you get all those people in the room and you can, you can make everything obvious and then facilitate out like what needs to happen. There was great value there. I'm not going to pay you a million dollars for that, but. And it was a fun, I know.

[00:23:49] And given the industry and everything, it was a fun, it was a very lively, shall we say, discussion. And it was in the Northeast of the state. So there was a lot of people who were used to expressing their opinions very vocally. So it was a fun, it was a, it was something quite fun to moderate. Yeah. You just have to make sure there's no sharp objects in the table. Exactly. Thankfully the table was wide enough so nobody could like throw punches across it or anything. Yeah. Or reach across.

[00:24:17] I've actually, I mean, I won't get into the details, but I was in a meeting in New York City. I brought a tenant to a meeting with a landlord to look at space. And let's just say a gun was pulled in the meeting. Probably the most, probably the biggest objection I've ever experienced in a meeting. I should have known better.

[00:24:45] But I love that. That's a, that's a heck of an objection. It's nowhere. I don't think that's in any of the objection handling books. Is it what to do when somebody pulls a gun on you? Well, he didn't pull it on me. He pulled it on the landlord because he didn't like what he said. Oh yeah. And I had to like step in between to kind of like calm things. And, you know, it was a, New York was a little grittier back then. And it was, it was tense.

[00:25:15] It's a good story for a couple of weeks. But, you know, Crosby's going out for another meeting. Let's see if he comes back with a bullet hole in him. It was, but it, it, I think, you know, going back to the, to the point of our job as a salesperson to be valuable. And that doesn't mean give away everything, but I like to think of it this way.

[00:25:41] And maybe this fits in with what Rackham would talk about, but making them think differently about a particular problem or get them to look at it from a slightly askew angle so that they see something that they didn't see before. And if, if you can get them to, you know, go back to that, like, wow, that's a good question. Right. And not step on it. Then, then we've really created value, but we've also created credibility for ourselves.

[00:26:08] And that's really a challenge for many salespeople who just want to be transactional and, and don't, and don't see the, they're not playing the long game. Yeah. They're not, they're not willing to, they're not willing to push back. Yeah. And, and, and they're not willing to give away anything. I mean, is in terms of give away too much because they think like, I need to, you know, instead of sharing and be willing to share ideas and insights and, and have confidence

[00:26:35] that you have a lot more behind that, some people are very reticent to share too much. And I think that's a mistake. It is a hundred percent. I mean, I wrote a book that I can give to somebody who's like, you want to do this, read the book and implement. You can do this yourself. You don't need me. No, I don't always believe that, but it's all there. They can, are they want, are they willing to do the work?

[00:27:05] Or do they want to go faster? Yeah. Those are the two variables. And I still have pause. If somebody says that really, you know, they're not willing to do the work because then we're not, they're not going to do the work no matter what to, to make the change because changes, you know, requires effort. It's hard. It does. It does. And if it was easy, I mean, I literally say this to people, if this was easy, you would have already done it. Yeah.

[00:27:32] And the thing, Walter, is I was, it always fascinates me about just human nature from all of us. Like, I mean, people fear change. They hate you and they like the status quo. They like all of that. But we live in, we live in constant change. Everything is in constant flux and change, but we try to control it all the time instead of, instead of saying, no, we're like, we need to learn how to flow with it. Yeah. Yeah. Get on the river and, and navigate it. Right. Don't just run into the trees and the, exactly. Exactly.

[00:28:02] Learn to navigate and steer. Okay. So as I, as I suspected, I've asked none of the questions I intended to ask you, but we had a great freaking conversation. Yeah. Um, and there was a lot of value, right. That, you know, from a, from a leadership perspective. Um, so let's talk a little bit about John, what you do, the company, how people can get

[00:28:29] ahold of you, what, you know, what the situation might be where you can add value. Yeah, no, absolutely. So I am currently the chief marketing strategy officer with Pipeliner CRM. Um, and I host SalesPop, the podcast and the online sales magazine. Uh, you can find me on LinkedIn. Uh, if you're interested in, on our CRM, pipelinersales.com. If you're interested in SalesPop, which has got great content, Walter's on there.

[00:28:58] Um, it's salespop.net, or you can find it on the YouTube channel or on any of the podcasts, you know, Spotify, Apple, all of those ones as well. Uh, and in a, you know, we try to bring as much, I like to look at things through a more of a revenue lens today, Walter, than simply a sales or marketing, because I think it's really important that I I'm big on a marketing and sales alignment as, as we mentioned from back in even the Neil Rackham days. I think it, I think it's, it's so critical that those two elements are so aligned.

[00:29:27] Um, I've got an advantage because I've done both, right. And I could do both and I've, you know, led organizations. So it gives me a, a particular insight that sometimes other people don't have. But yeah, yeah. If, if you're interested in, in, in CRM and you're a mid-market company, you know, reach out if you're just, if you're interested in, in just discussing sales, marketing alignment or anything like that, you know, reach out. I'm always happy to have conversations with anybody.

[00:29:55] All of the, all of your links will be in the show notes. Um, for the people that, that want to learn a little bit more, like who's, who's really a good fit for pipeline or it's not everybody. Um, well we really focus on the mid-market. So, um, we, we focus on, uh, cause we're a process engine as well. We focus on teams of 10 and above, right? So if you've got less than 10 salespeople, probably not the solution for you.

[00:30:23] 10 up to, you know, we've got some with, with thousands on it, but, but you know, the tens, twenties, fifties, hundreds, those areas. If you believe in process because, uh, you know, sales processes is, is key, right? So if you, if you care about sales process, if you've organized sales teams, all of that, then we're, we're a great fit for you. Um, it's, we've got AI embedded. It's very visual. It's easy to use. It's built from a salesperson perspective.

[00:30:48] First, it, it, um, unusually a lot of sometimes CRMs are great for hunters, but they're not great for account management and farmers. We've built both, both, uh, capabilities into our system. So it's great for hunters. It's great for farmers. It's great for customer success and building, you know, those relationships as well. So if you're a mid-market company, um, you, you are, you're, this is a sales CRM. We don't do the other stuff. We do sales.

[00:31:13] So if, uh, if, if you're interested in that then, and you have process and you have a significant sales team, then we're the people for you. Awesome. So in, in sales pop, um, it's a, it's a, it's a fun, fast paced, um, podcast. Um, you know, you're, you're, you're dropping little nuggets, um, um, and you have interesting guests aside from, you know, maybe you're silly. Um, but I mean, I had fun, right. Right.

[00:31:43] And to me that I do a lot of guest spots and sometimes they're not, and they're boring. And, uh, our conversations were fun. And this has been fun. And the other thing too, is we're bringing that content into the CRM too. So what our next iteration, just, uh, I don't want to get ahead of dance, but we're trying to bring to help, not just have a CRM that helps people execute, but also a CRM that helps

[00:32:08] people become better at selling because we give them insights and tips and tricks and stuff from folks like yourself. Awesome. Last question, John, past or present, any relationship with cigars? Um, yeah, I've smoked an odd cigar here and there never really been my thing. Um, I do remember being in Guatemala one time and, uh, at a, at a sales conference and, uh, the folks from Columbia brought this crazy bottle of a few bottles of tequila.

[00:32:36] And I just woke up in the morning with the Cuban cigar burning in the ashtray beside my bed. So there you go. That's really my experience with, with cigars. Who goes to Guatemala for a sales conference? Um, it was a regional conference. Um, yeah. All right. Cause that's a, uh, it's an interesting venue. Oh, it's a phenomenal venue actually. Antigua, Guatemala. It's the, it's the old city. It's not the, you know, not the, it's the old city and it's beautiful.

[00:33:06] Yeah. Awesome. Okay. All right, cool. Um, again, thank you. I appreciate the insights. The audience will, uh, if you have, you know, interest in another, another podcast, that's really revenue focused and, and, and helps the entrepreneur think about revenue. Sales pop, uh, look that up and get it wherever you get podcasts. John, thanks again. I appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks a lot, Walter. I appreciate it too.