Sales and Cigars | Cameron Stack | Podcasting Proficiency | Episode 178

[00:00:00] Hey everyone, Walter Crosby with Helix Sales Films at your host of Sales and Cigars. Today's episode is about podcasting. Have you ever thought about running a podcast? Have you ever thought about starting one? Think you got an idea but you're not sure it's a good idea?

[00:00:14] Well this episode is for you. My guest is Cameron Stack. He runs a company called, and I love the name, Podcast Sins. And we talk a little bit about why somebody should and shouldn't start a podcast. It's a lot of work. There's a difference between consistency and frequency.

[00:00:32] We get into some of the intangibles about running a podcast, what you want to do. One big thread that came through here is to niche. Niche it down as far as we can to the smallest viable audience of people you want to talk to.

[00:00:47] And talk about one thing that really, really you can dig into and hopefully you have some passion for. It doesn't matter if it's fishing with a certain type of pole or for a certain type of fish, quilting, sales and cigars.

[00:01:01] It doesn't really matter if you have a passion and it's something that you can dig into. There's an audience out there and you can work with a certain person like Cameron Stack to help you build that audience.

[00:01:14] So go grab a cigar, grab a cocktail, strap in for another educational episode of sales and cigars. Thanks, Cameron. Welcome to the program. I appreciate you taking some time out of your schedule to come on and have a chat. Yeah, thanks for having me.

[00:01:44] I'm trying to remember, we had a, I always do a quick little interview, but trying to remember how we connected. You reached out to me. How did that happen? Yeah, so that was through the Podmatch platform.

[00:02:02] Yeah, that's how we got connected and it can be a helpful resource for some of the podcasters out there, depending on who you're looking to connect with and stuff. But yeah. Yeah, that's what I thought. But I'm giving a shout out to the folks over there.

[00:02:21] So let's jump in. The idea, I like to get a read on, is there a book that you read every year? Is there a book that you gift a lot or one that you recommend to business owners?

[00:02:34] Yeah, so I'm always trying to read new books and like expand my horizons in terms of that. So there isn't a book that I read every year, but one of the books that had a huge impact on me was The Richest Man in Babylon.

[00:02:53] I read that around age 16 and it just really, I just really like opened my eyes to some of those insights and like how you want to be thinking about business. And so, yeah, that book was just really game changing. There's another one called The Slight Edge.

[00:03:15] There are a lot of great books I've read out there, but I would say that one was like because I was reading that at an early age. I think that really did change some of the ways I thought about business and finances and stuff like that.

[00:03:31] Yeah, because it gets into finances. It gets into helping you build a business vacuum. Yeah. I do a lot of work with salespeople and when somebody doesn't have that ability to walk somebody through an ROI on their process,

[00:03:52] on their product, that is a book that I recommend that they go read because it gives them a pretty high level overview of the finance aspect of the business as well as a bunch of other things. But it gets them thinking about what a business owner is thinking

[00:04:12] about and what's important to them and some of the vernacular that's important. So that's a, Evan has somebody mention that book in a very long time. It's a good call. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about your journey.

[00:04:30] I always make the cheesy joke about like when we were 10 or 12 years old, I know I'm not doing what I thought I was going to be doing when I was 10 or 12 years old. How did you get to run a business helping people build podcasts and monetize?

[00:04:46] Yeah, so that is a really interesting story. It's very, very long, but I'll give you the short version of it. And basically, I've always been fascinated with business. I wanted to do a variety of different things, but I started out in social media management running social media consulting

[00:05:12] and management company back in the early days of Facebook. So this was like the early, early days when like Lay's potato chips Red Bull had Facebook pages, but not much else. Apple did, you know, so it was really early days for business

[00:05:28] on Facebook, obviously not early days for users, but for business. So that's how I got started. I started creating content, creating mean pages, seeing how I could monetize and make money off these Facebook pages. And that just led me down a rabbit hole of like learning about

[00:05:48] content creation, learning about business, learning about social media. But at the end of the day, it is impossible to stand out within like just broadly social media because everyone thinks they can do it. Like they think their nephew who has a Snapchat can manage social media.

[00:06:11] And so it was really hard to stand out even though I had worked with 100 plus clients because everyone thinks social media is something that just anyone can do. And there's a lot that goes into managing say, company social media than your personal social media like Aunt

[00:06:31] Annie's or some of these food franchises. Like they have whole teams dedicated to their social media. They don't just have someone who just graduated from college managing it. So I realized there wasn't a huge career path in terms of that.

[00:06:47] So I started pivoting at really exploring business and like thinking about different types of content strategies and like business models out there. And then I started a podcast called Unscripted Startup. So we really looked into like the untraditional path businesses, ones that are self-funded, bootstrapped, crowdfunded.

[00:07:14] And I just loved podcasting so much that I decided with that podcast that I wanted to be more involved in the podcast space. I was getting a degree in film and media arts, so it tied in perfectly. And so then I just naturally used my skills.

[00:07:35] And once I graduated, started offering production and consulting services. So you follow the passion. You said you use the term going down a rabbit hole, but you really went in a direction. You realized it wasn't going to be something that social

[00:07:57] media management was going to be particularly challenging. So kind of pivoted, did a podcast and then just kind of just followed that and created a business out of that. And there's a theme that I see with entrepreneurs, especially younger entrepreneurs.

[00:08:19] And I just turned 16, so I've got to consider anybody under 40 younger at this point. I used to consider 40 old. That sort of changed as I ratcheted things up. But I just love this idea that you go after something that you really care about, that interests you.

[00:08:43] And it's almost like you're not working. Not every day is blissful and not every day is full of joy, but you're doing something that you're really excited about, you have passion for. So I see that more with younger folks.

[00:09:00] I have a daughter who's graduated college in a month. And she's been interviewing, looking at jobs and things. And I'm like, don't take a job that you hate. Don't take a job to take a job. Go find that thing that you really enjoy. And she's working through it.

[00:09:20] It's going to be, she's an equestrian and wants to run a rehab barn and such. But there's a niche that she likes. She's helping people take photographs and videos of their horses in cello. But it's something that she really is interested in.

[00:09:39] So she's taking classes and learned about it. And she loves it. So why not try to figure out a way to make money and support yourself doing something you love? And that's what you've done. So the name of the business, I thought, I love it

[00:09:57] because it's sort of like this negative reverse. It's a technique that I learned years ago in sales. But podcast sins, right? You're sort of implying that there's things that people do that probably shouldn't do that maybe not be the best idea.

[00:10:14] And I love that sort of little negative aspect to the name. Is that kind of what you were thinking when you named the business? Yeah, absolutely. There are a lot of things that people do right. But then there are also some very common mistakes

[00:10:33] that people continue to make that can sabotage their podcast. And so that was kind of the overarching thought behind the brand is like, we help you so you can avoid these mistakes and you don't have to go down the rabbit hole and stuff.

[00:10:51] There are things that are simple, but you wouldn't know them unless you're really in the podcasting space working with countless clients like I have or other people in space. And it's not to say that people who run their own podcasts are any less than that.

[00:11:11] It's just there are a lot of complexities that come with podcasting. And so that's why a lot of people that I work with value our services because they're able to weigh the opportunity cost and really realize that they are a genius in their space.

[00:11:33] So they're gonna focus on that and we can handle the technical and some of the strategic stuff. So it's a perfect marriage. So people are spending their time in what they can do best. And they don't have to focus on knowing

[00:11:51] all these hacks and all these tips to podcasting. So you can help somebody soup to nuts. Somebody's got this bright idea that they wanna do a podcast about acts and you can help them create that, flush that out and put a brand together.

[00:12:12] And then walk all through all the technical stuffs and then get them to be able to position themselves as they build a portfolio of episodes to monetize maybe not the right word but to leverage the platform to do other things. Is that fair? Is that a good description?

[00:12:34] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Leverage is a great word because everyone has a different goal behind the podcast and so we really create a tailored solution for them. And that's some of the DIY approaches out there. There are four generic paths for people to start a podcast

[00:12:56] but we always want to think of it from a completely customized perspective. So no two podcasts are the same, no two missions or goals for their show are the same. So the approach to building conception, launch and growth of the show shouldn't be the same either.

[00:13:16] Some people want massive shows and mass appeal and some people want those very loyal audience who are willing to do anything for them. And so we really build shows that are custom tailored to their needs on all facets so that they can leverage their thought leadership space

[00:13:43] or they can leverage selling a physical product or they can get more opportunities within their space or whatever their goal is, we help custom fit it to that so that they can understand what metrics they should be chasing after,

[00:14:05] what type of results they should be trying to reach and really help them understand that. Maybe you don't need 100,000 downloads, maybe you just need a thousand core fans and so really tailoring it to that. Yeah, it becomes what is it you're trying to do, right?

[00:14:24] It's a community, trying to build a community that's going to support you but you need to serve that community on a regular basis. I know my wife is into quilting, that's her thing that she likes to do and every night before she serves her wind down deal

[00:14:47] she'll watch some, usually a woman not always but usually a woman teaching them some technique that they're talking about and they're not all the same. There's a ton of people doing that. I have a friend who does, she's into knitting. This is like a 28, 29 year old woman

[00:15:16] who makes seven figures a year traveling around the world talking about knitting. Yep, selling patterns. But she guests on podcasts, she goes around on stages. So is it fair to say that if you have an idea about something that you're passionate about you're probably not the only one

[00:15:40] getting to that audience and sharing value is a reason somebody might talk to you in the podcast since, Jean? Yeah, so the thing I really love about podcasting is there's really nothing that is too niche. Everyone always is like, oh, that's too niche.

[00:15:58] I want to be more broad or whatever. I have not found example of something that is too niche. If there is a topic out there or an interest there is a podcast for it or there will be a podcast shortly.

[00:16:13] So take, for example, the most niche sports you can think of. So like cornhole, if you can think of a hobby or a somewhat athletic sport there is either a league for it or there is content creators. But I love the cornhole example

[00:16:35] because no one thinks it's a real sport. But there is a- They have it on ESPN. They have it on ESPN. Yeah, they have a professional league. But like a lot of these things people don't take them seriously because they're like, oh, it's a joke.

[00:16:52] Another one is Kanama or Yo-Yo or like these are just within the hobby space. But if we go back to your example of quilting there is a humongous town in- Well, not a humongous town. A small town in Missouri that has basically revived like this ghost town

[00:17:12] into like the Walt Disney or like the Disney World of the quilting community. So like this quilting company has kept the town alive and like employs everyone and it's basically a tourist attraction for quilting enthusiasts. So like there are so many ways that like,

[00:17:33] first of all, business thrives within the niches and also content. So if you can provide value and you know who you're delivering it to and who you aren't delivering the content for then you'll be able to provide much more value than catering to everyone.

[00:17:56] I always say with podcasting you want to be an inch wide and a mile deep opposed to a mile wide and an inch deep because you can always get more broad as you get a mass appeal. And this is something that you see common

[00:18:13] with content creators and podcasters. Once they start getting like a million, two million subscribers then they become a little more broad. But you shouldn't be broad at the beginning or like business. You should really hone down on one product and really become the industry standard

[00:18:34] for that thing, whether it's gardening, quilting, knitting, whatever that is. Then you can expand but you should never start broad and then like because that's a lot harder to first target an audience and a community. You don't know who you're talking to

[00:18:52] and I think the thing that causes that trouble whether it be podcasting or sales of a company trying to message their product to a particular audience, people are fearful of niching down to that, Seth Godin calls it the smallest viable audience. That might be 100 people,

[00:19:17] it might be a thousand people but it's not necessarily a million people. I mean there are businesses that need that kind of volume but for most small businesses they can handle a very small niche and what they do is they confuse their audience

[00:19:38] by trying to be too many things talking about multiple things. I think that's really sound advice not just with podcasting but with business in general. Let's try to be as niche as possible and so if we look at it, if we look at podcasting

[00:19:58] and somebody wants to talk about like so my theme is sales and cigars right those are two of my passions and sometimes it mixes, sometimes it doesn't but my audience is usually an entrepreneur. They're usually male, not always but usually they have some pension for cigars

[00:20:19] but they're growth-minded business owners and the guests that I have on this podcast are usually tied to help people in that space learn something of value that they can try to go implement in their business or go implement in their life, one or the other.

[00:20:43] As I've gone through this I've tried to get in my business and in the podcast I've tried to be more discerning. FF, is that something that you guys talk about with your clients about trying to really, really get that tight little audience and then because if you

[00:21:01] this is my theory, tell me if I'm right or wrong. If you don't know who you're trying to reach then there's you don't your message will be off track it won't get to where you need to go. You won't sound, you won't resonate with the right people.

[00:21:15] Hey thanks for being part of Sales and Cigars. I wanted to share a new project that we just launched. I wrote a new book called Scale Your Sales. It's written for the CEO. It's a short powerful book that explains the seven critical mistakes

[00:21:30] that CEOs make with their sales organization. It provides actionable steps that you can take to fix those problems in your business today and it might even help you get out of the sales seat yourself. So appreciate you listening to Sales and Cigars.

[00:21:46] You can find this book on Amazon or wherever you buy books. Yeah I think that is completely true. You need to, you need to know who you aren't targeting just as much as you need to know who you are targeting because yeah people are so fearful

[00:22:04] of me niching down. They're like oh well what if no one listens or what if it's too niche or whatever. I've never heard of a case where someone is like too niche whereas like there are countless podcasts. It depends on which platform you gauge it on

[00:22:22] but around four million podcasts and most of them died because they weren't seeing traction because they were way too broad. They wanted to be everything to everyone and then they ended up being nothing to no one. You really want to niche down, have that core messaging align

[00:22:40] with those people that you are trying to target because then they'll be your brand ambassadors and they'll share the podcast to other like minds but if you are just like I'm the Joe Rogan of pop culture it's like everyone in the brother is trying to do that.

[00:22:57] You need to stand out and be like I talk about tornadoes that come through you know America or you know I talk about shark attacks or something you have to be like very specific who you are targeting, why they should care

[00:23:17] and really so that when people do find your content they're like oh I resonate with that so much not like oh I just saw 10 other podcasts who talk about the exact same thing. It's like when you're starting out small

[00:23:33] you don't have a lot of assets that you can rely on but niching down and becoming an expert within a really specific space will allow you to open so many doors and opportunities that you wouldn't think is possible just by being that expert in said space

[00:23:57] and it doesn't always have to be a professional space it can be a hobby, it can be a craft, it can be food but you need to be niche at this point like some of the popular podcasts they got where they were because they were early days

[00:24:15] or they had existing audiences or other factors but if you want to succeed in 2024 there is no way other than being very intentional about your messaging and being very niche and there is a really great book on this it's done by Pat Flynn

[00:24:34] it's called A Thousand Truths for Anz and basically it talks about you know like you can have a huge audience but if none of them care then what's the point? And to make that example I did a talk about this and basically the two examples

[00:24:55] or there are a few examples but one of them was a TikToker with 1.6 million followers I believe and she obviously she had like her audience might have not been in the US or whatever but she scheduled a meetup at the YouTube convention conference

[00:25:20] and like no one showed up and so like just because you have a big audience doesn't mean they're going to show up another example is someone with almost 3 million Instagram followers couldn't sell 36 t-shirts via her Instagram so like you would think someone with 3 million followers on Instagram

[00:25:40] would have like it couldn't sell at least a couple hundred but she wasn't able to and obviously this isn't all her fault it's just you know how we have been you know pushed to think that oh we need these high vanity metrics and we need like countless onlookers

[00:26:04] and we just need all this social praise but in reality it's like you want those intentional buyers you want someone who when you decide to put something up for sale do a course offering do something that those people will jump

[00:26:22] and be like you have provided me with so many insights so much value I want to support you I want to share this I want to talk about your podcast and you really don't get that with these mainstream you know things unless you're a media publication essentially

[00:26:46] or have been in the space for countless years Which is what Rogan has done I used his turn and there's only one of them and we don't need 12 Yes. So you know I think it's follow your passion niche it down just like in business right

[00:27:05] the smallest viable audience that people really give a crap about what it is that you're doing paying attention you're speaking to them you're resonating with them I think that works across the board so I mean if somebody's crazy enough to go start a podcast

[00:27:20] right because it's a lot of work It is. You know because I've had people like you know should I start a podcast and then I'm like hey B are you ready to have you know put in a lot of work and a lot of time

[00:27:34] because what's the statistic that you know they fail within 10-15 episodes that they don't continue on because people stop making episodes Is that what's the number that Um I don't recall the exact metric because it changes every so often with how many shows are coming out

[00:27:58] but over 50% of people release less than six episodes and then almost I would say I don't know the exact metric because obviously it's changed but if you can make it past 20 episodes you're doing way better than like eight out of ten people

[00:28:25] nine out of ten people who start a podcast It's all about consistency Podcasting is definitely one of the hardest mediums out there but also it's one of the most beneficial because you can control your audience You're not beholden to algorithms on platforms like Instagram, TikTok, YouTube

[00:28:48] but then it is a lot of work It's long-term commitment Yeah so it really depends on you know why are you doing this and what's the purpose behind it because like a lot of people are like should I start a podcast or should I do Facebook ads

[00:29:08] Obviously those are completely different night and day If you just want instant sales then do Facebook ads but if you want to cultivate a long-term audience who really cares about your community and you want to add value and you want to be known as

[00:29:29] someone within the space for the next 20 years then start that podcast but you're not going to see instant results like with a Facebook ad Some of the intangibles that a podcast I mean we've got at the time this year is we'll have over 175 episodes

[00:29:49] that are out produced and in the world So what are some of the intangibles that somebody can let's just say they get to 100 episodes What is that We've talked about some of them but what are some of the intangible benefits of running a podcast

[00:30:08] Yeah so it really depends on the podcast and the space because the opportunities and things vary but a good example is I helped someone within the niche sports space build a podcast They were an unknown player basically this community is very closed off

[00:30:29] and they just basically started a podcast and said we want to elevate your voice We want to elevate your knowledge and expertise within the space And this basically brought them to the table of being someone within the space because they were just elevating other people's voices

[00:30:53] within the community and they went from being like no one to being an actual brand that people all thought about and stuff within the space And so that's like one of the intangible benefits is you can really brand yourself as a leader within the space

[00:31:13] by elevating people's voices and sharing their opinion Obviously this works a lot better in niche spaces but then like you can get speaking opportunities job offers depends on how you position it but like in the podcast I started unscripted startups offered me so many intangible benefits

[00:31:38] Kickstarted my career and I received speaking opportunities podcast opportunities just from doing it So like there are a lot of both tangible and intangible benefits that maybe you can't track with a ad pixel but you know that they came from the podcast

[00:31:57] or that you know that they came from being putting yourself out there on the internet I mean one of the things that I've noticed which speaks to what you just said is it is much easier to become a guest on a podcast that when you have a podcast

[00:32:18] I mean you have to have something to say and you have to have some level of expertise and add value to an audience but because you have some podcasting experience there's an assumption that you can deliver on your topic of choice or your topic of expertise

[00:32:40] and I think that is that's almost more important than having a podcast I think is being able to get to be on other people so it's like explain this the other way to a guy I think I wanted to do a podcast and it's like a boat

[00:32:56] you want a friend with a boat you want a good friend with a boat and you get on the boat and go out and have fun but you don't have to go to the gas station there or get at the marina and fill it up

[00:33:08] and you don't have to maintain it you're not paying insurance right you go out and guest on spots and have some fun and add value to people is that I mean I've kind of tongue in cheek with that but I don't think I'm wrong

[00:33:21] because it's an investment of time and resources to run a podcast yeah it definitely is and depending on how niche your podcast is you know you have to be pretty selective about the process so yeah people with podcasts are more likely to interview

[00:33:43] other people with podcasts or other creators because they know that content creation is hard and you want to you want to curate it and you want to actually be adding value and in 2024 there are so many people who just want to come on podcasts

[00:34:00] pitch their product and not really add any value there are countless PR agencies who have sprung up who just you know like pitch people like I'll get you on a podcast and people are inundated with these requests because I manage so many podcasts

[00:34:18] and like it doesn't matter what type of podcast you are you have at least one episode published you're going to get emails of like can I come on your podcast can I come on your podcast my CEO would be a great fit for you blah blah blah

[00:34:34] and it's like this has happened to even like podcasts who have been like inactive for two years or like you clearly know they don't review the podcast beforehand or listen to the episodes so yeah being a podcaster or some other type of content creator

[00:34:55] is like one of the levels that it's like oh I'm not 100% sure they'll deliver value but I know they're not just one of these people who just wants to promote their service because you know that's one of the layers

[00:35:10] that you go through with a lot of my clients we do screening calls too to make sure you know it's the right fit and so there are other ways to go about it it is very hard to get on a podcast of substance

[00:35:27] unless you do have something of value to offer so whether you have a channel that you can promote it on or you're an industry expert so like say you've been in the medical field for 30 years then you're not going to have a hard time getting on a podcast

[00:35:44] but if you were just you know the run-of-the-mill you know med student with no audience then yes you would kind of it would kind of be hard to get on it because you have to you have to add value especially with all the competition this year

[00:36:03] I added a 15 minute pre-interview just for what you describe make sure there's a fit here's my audience here's what they care about what are we going to talk about that's going to add value to them and that's after screening you know people pretty carefully before we get there

[00:36:27] and you know I probably if I talk to five people in a pre-interview you know there's probably three that that make it through and there's two that we pass on it's hard but it's you know I don't I don't want somebody just coming on pitching

[00:36:43] I want somebody to add some value to help people yeah so like you know we've talked about podcasting at a very high level we've talked about podcasting as to the value we can bring the good the bad of it that it's hard work

[00:36:58] that you can do it on your own but it probably makes sense to get some help and you know so if there's anybody in the audience like my friend Greg who's thinking about doing one you know this is a valuable episode tool

[00:37:13] so you know if we're going to have all of your contact info in our show notes but you know what's the best way for somebody to reach out to camera and say hey you know you saw you on on sales and cigars

[00:37:26] or heard you on sales and cigars and I'm kind of kicking this idea of you know I'd love to chat like what's the best way for them to reach out yeah the best way would just to be email me at hello at podcast sins.com

[00:37:40] obviously I'm on social media and you can connect on LinkedIn but the easiest way is just to reach out via email and be like hey I have this idea is it worth you know starting a podcast

[00:37:52] because one of the things I really like to do with my clients well one of the things I really like to do with my clients is is expectation management because a lot of people have different ideas of what a podcast is

[00:38:06] but in order for it to be worth my time and your time we got to manage those expectations and like help you realize like is it a good fit is it not a good fit because sometimes it isn't a good fit

[00:38:20] I mean I'm slightly biased I love podcasting but also if you're not going to be consistent with it there's no point in getting started because it's all about being consistent and it's all about that long-term investment like if you want to make money in business

[00:38:38] and you're committed to long term you would start a business but if you just want a quick buck there are other ways than starting a business to you know turn a profit so like that's how I kind of think of it if you want something quick

[00:38:55] social media is there Facebook ads are there but if you want a long-term committed audience and you want to develop deep ties within your niche or industry then podcasting is the right move for you and you're going to help them think about

[00:39:13] all of the things that they need to do the amount of what consistency means because it doesn't mean doing one eight times a month it could be twice a month it could be whatever the cadence is but if you don't deliver on the cadence that you promise

[00:39:33] you lose credibility so if you're thinking about a podcast and you think you have an idea or you're not sure if you have the resources or the time to put in I would you know recommend having a conversation with Cameron to figure out

[00:39:51] you know he's gonna give you the straight scoop it's hard work but it's also a lot of fun I started this because I wanted to meet interesting people and learn some things and just have a good time and I've accomplished that each time I've learned something

[00:40:12] I think it would be hard for me to go back and look at the episodes and not and find one that I didn't learn something maybe early on I had guests that didn't bring tons of value but for the most part I'm always learning something

[00:40:30] and I'm meeting interesting people my network expands so we'll have all those notes in the show notes so go reach out to Cameron last question Cameron relationship with cigars past or present I don't really have a relationship to them yeah it's not uncommon some people don't find

[00:40:56] they'll find it as a hobby or a passion so I appreciate it all right dude I thank you for the time I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and ideas and hopefully this helps you find a couple of clients yeah absolutely

[00:41:12] because my two big passions are business and podcasting so I'm pretty happy to chat about it because yeah it's what makes business fun if we're doing something we love well we're not really working thanks man