Sales and Cigars | J. Lesperance | Unpacking Intellectual Property with The Patent Baron | Episode 201

[00:00:00] Hey everyone, Walter Crosby with Helix Sales Development, your host of Sales & Cigars. Today's episode is a little out of character for us. I got a lawyer on, which is normally not something I do, and two, I don't normally associate myself with lawyers. But J. B. is affectionately referred to as the Patent Baron. And the reason I think this is important for everybody to listen to as a business owner is that you have intellectual

[00:00:29] property in your business that you may not realize is intellectual property. So it goes beyond the stuff you have in your head. So if you're using an NDA with your employees or you use an NDA with some of your vendors, there's something there that might need some IP protection. And we break down the difference between a trademark, copyright and registration, and what those mean and why you use them in different spots.

[00:00:58] And J. B. was an engineer that went to law school. So he really understands how to explain things. So he breaks it down real simple. So go grab a cigar, grab a cocktail, strap in for another educational episode of Sales & Cigars. Thanks.

[00:01:29] So J. B., I appreciate you taking some time out of your busy schedule to jump on the podcast and have a conversation.

[00:01:37] Well, happy to be here, Walter.

[00:01:43] So we've known each other a little while, so I kind of have an advantage on when I do these. Most of the time I haven't really talked to somebody. So it's always interesting for me to talk to somebody I've known for five or six years and try to have a conversation that's meaningful.

[00:02:03] And sometimes it's harder than it is when I really don't know the person. But we're going to try to fight through that.

[00:02:15] Okay.

[00:02:16] Or else screw up.

[00:02:17] No, no. Sounds good.

[00:02:19] So one of the questions that the audience likes, because it kind of gives them an idea of how your brain works.

[00:02:30] Is there a book that you reread once a year? Is there a book that you gift to people? Is there any book that kind of has an impact on you?

[00:02:45] Yeah. Well, it's funny you ask that because I think you'll get a kick out of my answer. So it's a book I'm sure you're familiar with, but it is The Greatest Salesman in the World by Augmandino.

[00:02:56] So it's an interesting book to say the least. You probably, there you go.

[00:03:02] There's one?

[00:03:03] That one.

[00:03:06] Yes. So I, you know, I was certainly aware of it and I rediscovered it, you know, more recently and been reading it.

[00:03:15] And I've recommended it to certainly several people within the last few months.

[00:03:20] I said, you know, really need to read this. It's an interesting book. You have to look at it from, you know, the perspective that it's being presented.

[00:03:28] But I think it's helped me and it's continues to help me. So that's, you know, probably one you were maybe not expecting to hear.

[00:03:36] It's one that I haven't heard before.

[00:03:39] I have a friend of mine who was working on writing it for children.

[00:03:47] So if you've read the book, that would make sense, right? Because it's not just about sales, right? It's about the essence of sales.

[00:03:58] Like how do we come better at it? And it's really about helping people.

[00:04:02] Right. And the more we help people, the more opportunity we have in our own life.

[00:04:09] So if you can put that into a message for the kid, right?

[00:04:15] Whether they read it themselves when they get to that age or it's a bedtime story where you read a scroll every night.

[00:04:26] I don't know. I don't know that he's finished that or not, but I think it's a that's a noble idea.

[00:04:33] Yes. Hopefully I just didn't give that away that somebody else takes that idea and run it with intellectual property, which we'll get to in a minute.

[00:04:42] Yeah.

[00:04:44] So you have to be kind of careful about doing that.

[00:04:47] I would imagine. But those principles are pretty, pretty standard.

[00:04:53] You could spin that into a children's book pretty easily.

[00:04:59] And you started giving it to clients or to people you met in networking groups?

[00:05:04] Well, people that I work with, you know, and people that I have worked with.

[00:05:08] So attorneys and I think, you know, I think I found it useful for me.

[00:05:15] And, you know, I don't know how, you know, if they take it to heart or if they actually do it.

[00:05:19] But I think it can help anyone.

[00:05:22] Like you said, it's not really just for salespeople, as it were.

[00:05:27] And at any, you know, at some level, we're all providing a service, you know, where we have to do something for others.

[00:05:36] You know, whether you're an engineer or an accountant or a football player, you know, you still are doing things, you know, for others.

[00:05:45] And, you know, you want to make yourself better.

[00:05:49] You know, as a human, right, Daniel Pink talks about that in his books.

[00:05:55] Essentially, we're all salespeople because we're all looking to share ideas, sell ideas, or we're part of an organization where we need to tell the story and live those, live values and such.

[00:06:08] So, I mean, I think it does speak to just being a solid human being.

[00:06:15] Yes.

[00:06:15] And doing the things, doing the right things for the right reasons when nobody's looking is kind of a real test.

[00:06:26] But we're getting too, getting too philosophical.

[00:06:32] So, you know, I know your background.

[00:06:35] And I think you got a cool story where you're, you know, what you did in the past really informs what you do today.

[00:06:45] Okay. So why don't you let you walk us through, you know, how you, you know, how you, how you navigate, how you got to where you were.

[00:06:53] Because I would imagine when you were 10, you weren't thinking you were going to be an IP attorney, did you?

[00:07:00] No, no.

[00:07:01] So, I, you know, I wasn't really aware of intellectual property that much, you know, except for things you might see in advertising or branding, you know, like Coca-Cola or, you know, registered U.S. patent office kind of things.

[00:07:15] But no, no, I started out, well, I'm a big car guy, as you know.

[00:07:19] So I, you know, my general thought was to be involved in the auto industry at some level.

[00:07:25] And I started my undergraduate program in mechanical engineering, although I had really thought about architecture too.

[00:07:34] But I got to thinking that there's just a lot more opportunities for engineers than architects.

[00:07:39] And luckily, the school I was attending, Lawrence Tech, in just outside Detroit in Southfield, Michigan was, you know, had good engineering and architecture programs.

[00:07:49] So it was easy for me to just change my major and focus on engineering.

[00:07:55] And that transition, once I finished into an automotive career and I worked for a number of suppliers.

[00:08:02] And as we were talking earlier, before we started the podcast, I was a contract engineer at Ford Motor Company for a short time.

[00:08:11] So you went through the, you know, I'm one of the few people who live in the Detroit area who has been able to avoid working for a supplier or an OEM, you know, in the auto industry.

[00:08:32] And even tangentially, you know, some of my clients will sell to people that sell to, but I've been able to avoid it myself.

[00:08:41] So you went, you walked towards the, the breadwinner, the fire.

[00:08:46] Yes, yes.

[00:08:47] Well, again, a lot of it was from enthusiasm, you know, coming from always liking cars and things.

[00:08:53] And then once you get involved in it, you see that it's just, it's a lot more complex, you know, than it seems.

[00:09:01] And there's just certainly many levels and so forth.

[00:09:05] And that's really what led to my first real exposure to patents.

[00:09:09] When I was working in a supplier, I met their patent attorney where the department I was working in had developed some new equipment that they wanted to patent.

[00:09:19] And so I started thinking about that.

[00:09:21] I thought, oh, that's an interesting career because, you know, I like to write, which is a little bit unusual for engineers.

[00:09:28] And one of my professors in undergrad suggested that I might want to go to law school, too.

[00:09:34] So I had a few things kind of working on my mind there and having the opportunity to work on other things and not be so tied to the auto industry, which, you know, again, even the time that I was in it, I could see that it was a cyclical industry.

[00:09:49] And, you know, perhaps, unfortunately, engineers, as they get older, oftentimes their experience isn't appreciated like it is in other professions like medicine and law and aviation, to name a few.

[00:10:07] Engineers can sometimes be, you know, priced out of a position and just based on that and not on their experience.

[00:10:14] So I didn't want to be a kind of middle-aged engineer, you know, in that situation looking for work, where as a patent attorney or even just as an attorney, I can have more work flexibility.

[00:10:28] I can work on my own or work in a variety of organizations within, let's say, firms or corporate counsel and just have more career flexibility, not just even tied to the area.

[00:10:39] Although, you know, I still live in Southeast Michigan, but, you know, to have that flexibility to be able to practice pretty much anywhere is nice.

[00:10:51] So how long, how long between, how long were you playing in the engineering world?

[00:10:58] How long were you working in that space?

[00:11:01] Yeah.

[00:11:01] It was about six or seven years and I actually started law school in a part-time while I was an engineer.

[00:11:08] So there was, I guess, maybe a little overlap at that point.

[00:11:11] But it got to the point where I needed to transition and, of course, study for the bar exam and then the patent bar exam, too.

[00:11:19] So there was a time when I stepped away.

[00:11:22] But it was, there were some aspects, too, that were nice because I was, you know, I had a good paying job with benefits and things.

[00:11:29] And that helped with, you know, law school expenses and all that.

[00:11:35] Yeah, school's cheap.

[00:11:37] Right.

[00:11:39] So, so the, the, the, the engineering thing, understanding how to read a drawing, understanding what goes into the mechanics of engineering helps you informs what you're, what you're doing when you're looking at certain types of patents.

[00:11:57] Right.

[00:11:58] That are like you and I are working on something.

[00:12:01] You're helping me with a trademark that is, is got nothing.

[00:12:08] There's no mechanical aspects to it.

[00:12:09] Right.

[00:12:09] It's just the intellectual property.

[00:12:13] But, you know, aside from those kinds of things, I would imagine having an engineering degree helps you, you know, sort through somebody who's trying to take a product that actually has moving pieces or components.

[00:12:25] Right.

[00:12:25] Right.

[00:12:26] Right.

[00:12:26] And I think, you know, just from a bigger perspective, it's the problem solving approach, you know, engineers are problem solvers.

[00:12:34] And as attorneys, not just patent attorneys, but, you know, that's where, what we're asked to do.

[00:12:39] You know, we're asked to find solutions to problems and whether it's a patent or a trademark or a civil dispute.

[00:12:45] You know, I think engineering training has helped me in law school and helped me analyze and be able to process and present information to individuals, to judges, to juries about what the issues are, what needs to be resolved.

[00:13:03] So I think it's helpful.

[00:13:04] Most attorneys, you know, don't go through engineering as a pre-law type of program.

[00:13:10] They choose other degree programs.

[00:13:15] So it helps you be able to break down an argument to help explain a particular, the nuance of a case, but breaking it down into component pieces.

[00:13:28] So it's easier for, you know, dumb people like me to understand.

[00:13:31] Well, right.

[00:13:32] Yes.

[00:13:32] And don't sell yourself short, you know, Walter.

[00:13:35] But, but yes, I think that's the, that's the challenge that as attorneys, you know, we, or even engineers where we can be so involved in a particular matter that we have our, you know, it can be difficult to step back and say, how do you explain this to someone just walking in off the street?

[00:13:51] Who doesn't know what, you know, and walk them through the elements of a claim, the elements of a case, what needs to be proven, has it been proven and so forth.

[00:14:03] And, you know, again, like breaking it up so that, you know, again, kind of an instruction manual approach.

[00:14:08] And that's a lot, that's a good way to describe what a patent application is.

[00:14:11] It's showing someone how to make and use the invention.

[00:14:14] And that's part of the, the bargain of, of a patent is that you have to show the public how to make and use it, but you have exclusive rights as long as the patent's in effect.

[00:14:25] Afterwards, anyone can make and use it.

[00:14:30] Yeah.

[00:14:31] So one of the things that we met at a, at a networking group and we've been in a couple of different networking groups together.

[00:14:40] But one of the things that occurred there was you, the day you were, you were kind of doing the education component.

[00:14:49] You, you broke down, like, I think this is something that most people, especially my audience,

[00:14:56] doesn't understand the difference of the registration, the registered and the TM, right?

[00:15:02] I mean, I'm just, if you're thinking about this, the R with the circle around it and the TM.

[00:15:07] So can you use your breakdown engineering law school ideas to like explain the difference and then why they're appropriate?

[00:15:17] Sure.

[00:15:17] No problem.

[00:15:18] So I don't want to, don't want to sound like a professor, but I'll, I'll just, I'll go through it briefly.

[00:15:23] So that it clears up any, any issues people have.

[00:15:28] So the circle R indicates a federal registration of a trademark at the United States Patent and Trademark Office.

[00:15:35] And that means it's gone through the entire examination process.

[00:15:40] It's gone through any opposition by others thinking that the mark was confusing and it has passed all of those thresholds and allows you to have exclusive use of that mark in whatever classes it's registered in.

[00:15:55] And I think, you know, as we, as you've learned, there's their 45 classes of goods and services.

[00:16:01] And you, there are people that have the same mark registered for other things.

[00:16:06] Delta is a great example, Delta faucets, Delta airlines and so forth.

[00:16:10] So they each have it registered in different classes.

[00:16:15] And you can, uh, you can, uh, before you apply for a mark.

[00:16:18] And if you, if you don't indicate anything, it, you can use the TM next to a mark to show that you're using a word phrase or logo or a combination of those as a trademark, but that you either have registration pending,

[00:16:33] or you're just using it as your trademark and you are just asserting the common law, right?

[00:16:39] A trademark on that particular configuration, whatever it happens to be.

[00:16:45] Uh, that's is, uh, it does give you some rights, but not nearly enough as federal registration does.

[00:16:53] And so it's a way to protect, uh, the use of it.

[00:16:57] So if I'm, if I'm registering or if I, if I'm trademarking, uh, the sales integrator, let's just say, um,

[00:17:05] that gives me protection in Oakland County, the state of Michigan, the United States, the planet, the universe.

[00:17:12] Well, at least the United States.

[00:17:14] So, uh, it would at least extend it there.

[00:17:16] So yes.

[00:17:17] And, you know, just take a step back.

[00:17:19] There are state trademarks.

[00:17:20] Uh, there are not state patents, but there are state trademarks and, uh, even the state of Michigan and other states will issue them.

[00:17:29] Um, it's something that certainly people have done in the past.

[00:17:31] I think more and more people are just bypassing that and seeking federal registration because of the internet and how it can reach people from coast to coast and beyond.

[00:17:43] It allows people to have a single location, but attract customers throughout the world, but with certainly, certainly within the U S.

[00:17:52] Now you can seek international trademark protection.

[00:17:56] And that involves, you know, going into different countries and following their procedures.

[00:18:01] So it can get quite complicated beyond that.

[00:18:04] But, uh, and you can also bring a foreign trademark into the U S for example, and say it's been used in Italy for a number of years.

[00:18:13] And then you can seek to register it in the U S.

[00:18:17] So that can be another approach, but just to kind of keep things a bit, um, you know, simplified for the sake of the discussion, we'll focus on the U S and it does allow you to, um, and I was just, there was just going through a webinar recently where that was restated.

[00:18:36] But how the U S customs and border protection can use, you can use those services to protect your trademark to prevent infringing goods from coming into the U S.

[00:18:47] And there's all sorts of, uh, you know, equipment that the government has to help you with that.

[00:18:54] But, uh, that is something that can really help, particularly when you're talking about goods, not so much with services, but particularly with goods.

[00:19:05] Okay. So, um, that's, that's helpful. And I think that's informative to, uh, those of us who are like, you know, what's the difference in, and you sort of broke it down that so that, that we, we under, we understand that.

[00:19:16] So if, if you're, uh, um, you know, a business owner and I don't know, you could be a manufacturer, uh, you could be a distributor of, of other people's products.

[00:19:29] Um, it could be some sort of an agency that, um, that, that has a particular process, um, that you're, that you're using.

[00:19:39] Interesting. So I, I, the point I want to make, and I'm going to lean on you to help how we talk about it, but what should the, what should the business owner be thinking about that?

[00:19:54] That they should, they have intellectual property that they might not realize. So how do they figure out if they have something, take, take their logo off the table for a second. Right.

[00:20:03] That, um, you know, that's pretty straightforward. They should protect that, um, if they can. Um, but, but what other types of like engineering processes or service process, if you're a marketing company, um, if you're a provider of some engineering service, what, what might they have that is worth having a conversation with somebody like you?

[00:20:29] Right. Right. Well, I think the, the big question you can ask yourself is, is this something that you would want your competitors to have?

[00:20:38] And, and, you know, if the answer is yes, then there's a good possibility, you know, you don't want them to have it, that it is intellectual property.

[00:20:47] And that, that can extend to, let's say trade secrets would be a good example of that.

[00:20:53] That can be procedures and customer lists and other things, know-how things that you've learned or your business has learned that makes your company, uh, perform better, gives them an edge.

[00:21:08] And that's why you can seek to protect that with non-disclosure agreements with your employees and your contractors and so forth, because you don't want someone to leave your business and then open up competing business and, you know, take all of that information that might not fit into the box of a patent or a trademark.

[00:21:28] So if you're using an NDA, it might not touch on those. Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

[00:21:36] So if somebody is using, yeah, if somebody is using an NDA, that might be an indication that there's some value there that they should contemplate.

[00:21:44] Right. I think it's, it's a, it's a red flag or at least, you know, brings note to something that, okay, you know, this is a more serious thing, whether you're, you're talking to a potential supplier or subcontractor, someone you're partnering with on a joint venture, things like that.

[00:22:01] Um, non-disclosure agreements are, um, non-disclosure agreements are really a good thing to have.

[00:22:05] But, uh, as I was just advising a client yesterday, you know, I certainly would seek to protect it with patents, trademarks, copyrights, and, you know, whatever fits into that situation in, in, along with a non-disclosure agreement, you know, if possible.

[00:22:25] Uh, if you're developing a prototype, for example, you would want to think about filing a provisional patent application at the very least before you turn over those drawings CAD and so forth to a prototype manufacturer and then have them sign an NDA as well, because then they're on notice that this is a patent pending product, but also you have the non-disclosure agreement to reinforce that.

[00:22:52] Um, because again, the goal would be to get that patent approved and granted so that you would have those legal rights in addition to the rights that the non-disclosure agreement, if it were violated, would offer you.

[00:23:09] Right.

[00:23:09] So protection.

[00:23:12] So if it's not a widget, if it's not a thing that you're building or prototyping, you have a, a particular way of helping a client.

[00:23:23] And it's, it, there's multiple steps and you call it something and you always do it the same way.

[00:23:31] Is that intellectual property that's worth?

[00:23:35] Well, I think so.

[00:23:36] And, and, you know, just to expand on the widget, you know, analogy, you know, methods are something that can be patentable.

[00:23:43] You know, it's, it's hard to say if a particular method of, let's say, you know, sales training and so forth, you know, might be patentable that way.

[00:23:52] But there are methods, for example, on how to make a particular composition, let's say a chemical composition of mixing a variety of chemicals in certain ratios and heating or otherwise processing them to get a certain product.

[00:24:09] So it's not just restricted to widgets, but to add to what you were saying, it could be something that would fall into a trade secret.

[00:24:17] It could be something that could be included in copywritten material so that if we're, it were reproduced by someone, let's say they removed your letterhead and put their letterhead on it.

[00:24:28] But you can show that the contents are essentially the same.

[00:24:32] There could be, you know, copyright violations.

[00:24:35] So, you know, there are other, you know, I wouldn't say it's a one size fits all situation, but you can use certain elements of intellectual property to help protect pretty much any idea.

[00:24:47] So it's worth, it's worth thinking about if you have a process, a methodology that you use that is consistent and provides a specific result.

[00:25:04] It's worth having a conversation to determine if it is something to protect.

[00:25:10] And you just mentioned something else, though.

[00:25:13] The C with the circle around it, right?

[00:25:15] Copyright.

[00:25:17] Is that, how is that different than the TM other than?

[00:25:21] Right, right.

[00:25:22] So a trademark identifies the source of a good or service.

[00:25:26] So if you're looking at, let's go back to, I think we mentioned Coca-Cola, but I always use Coca-Cola as an example.

[00:25:32] But when you pick up a can of Coca-Cola, you have a very good confidence that that's an authentic Coca-Cola product.

[00:25:40] And, you know, maybe it's hard to imagine, but certainly in other countries, this is more of a problem with counterfeit goods.

[00:25:47] So you could pick up a can that looks like a Coca-Cola can that maybe reveals very similar, but it's not bottled by a licensed Coca-Cola bottler in that country.

[00:26:00] And I think you, you know, you may recall or scenes where people have something that's very similar to McDonald's in other countries, but it's not McDonald's.

[00:26:09] So we're, you know, in this country, we're, we don't have to, I guess, navigate that as in other countries because of the strength of our IP laws.

[00:26:18] But, you know, you know, you know, that's an authentic Coca-Cola product, a Nike shoe and so forth.

[00:26:31] Whereas copyrights protect original works.

[00:26:34] And I just saw a new story about, I think Mr. Musk was getting into some issues with his recent robo taxi introduction and some Blade Runner materials and things.

[00:26:47] So he, so there, there's a brewing IP battle there.

[00:26:52] So, so any original work could be a movie in this case, Blade Runner.

[00:26:57] It could be a sculpture, a photograph.

[00:27:00] A lot of people get into trouble with grabbing photos off the internet and not seeing if they, you know, are copywritten.

[00:27:07] Sometimes they're free, but you have to look.

[00:27:10] And that depends how you're using them too.

[00:27:12] If you're using it for educational purposes, you could argue fair use.

[00:27:16] But if you're using it as a commercial, you know, part of your commercial activity, then you don't have that protection.

[00:27:23] So there's plenty of services out there just for photographs.

[00:27:31] There are plenty of them.

[00:27:33] It's really, you know, people are searching through, trying to find something for a newsletter or whatever the case may be.

[00:27:38] They can get in a lot of trouble if they don't investigate that.

[00:27:43] But if you go out and you take a picture of, you know, fall scenes, you know, at this time of year and, and put it on your website.

[00:27:49] You know, well, you know, you took that photo, you know, it's on your computer.

[00:27:53] You can prove when it was taken.

[00:27:55] You're the original artist.

[00:27:57] So it's free for you to use it.

[00:28:02] And even if you cite who give credit to the, in certain cases, you still get trouble.

[00:28:10] You can.

[00:28:10] If it's a commercial use, you could still get into trouble.

[00:28:13] If it's, I would say, a professor, you know, using a photo of something to illustrate something to students or, you know, really in an educational, whether it's a non-commercial aspect.

[00:28:25] You know, that's the thing.

[00:28:27] And it's just, it's good to err on the side of caution and not get in.

[00:28:31] There are places, like you said, where you can get stock photos that are free or you can sign up.

[00:28:36] Or if you have permission, you know, you can go through other Getty and other agencies to have an account where you can use them.

[00:28:41] But, you know, of course, there are costs involved.

[00:28:47] Sure.

[00:28:47] Yeah.

[00:28:48] And even the stock photos that get the free ones.

[00:28:50] I mean, I use a service that provides me lots of access to photos that don't have a restriction on them.

[00:29:00] But, you know, I pay for access.

[00:29:02] Plus, you have the AI component of that.

[00:29:04] So, I think there's a, I think we broke down the basics.

[00:29:10] I think we broke down the, you know, the reasons why, right?

[00:29:16] There's, even if it's, even if you're not sure, it's worth having, you know, a consult with you to talk about, you know, what you need to do to protect it.

[00:29:29] If it's worth taking the time and effort to do it, what the upside, what the downside is.

[00:29:35] And I think so that you've shared those issues.

[00:29:41] What, what's the best way?

[00:29:43] We're going to have your, your contact information in the show notes.

[00:29:48] But where would you direct them to say, hey, you know, JB, I want to, I want to reach out.

[00:29:53] I have a question.

[00:29:54] Well, you know, I do have a website.

[00:29:56] It's patentbarron.com.

[00:29:58] So, that's a place where you can learn more about me and my experience.

[00:30:02] And there's contact information there.

[00:30:04] So, you can reach out to me through the website or you can give me a call, all that information there.

[00:30:10] And that's probably the best way to, to reach out to me.

[00:30:14] And then you can, you know, we can set up a consultation and talk about, you know, how to put a lock in your ideas as part of my tagline.

[00:30:25] Yeah.

[00:30:26] I like that.

[00:30:27] Lock in the idea.

[00:30:27] So, I would really encourage you, if you, even if you think about, if you're doing NDAs and if you're worried about your competition having,

[00:30:36] I think that's a really good distinction.

[00:30:39] You really wouldn't want your competition to have a look under the hood of the thing that you're talking about.

[00:30:45] That might be worth protecting.

[00:30:46] And you might not be able to do it, but there might be a way to reposition it or make some modifications to put it in a better light to give you some protection.

[00:30:56] And it's not, it's not really expensive to take the precaution to put yourself in a better spot.

[00:31:05] So, I would encourage you to reach out to the patent baron here, J.B.

[00:31:13] So, my last question is always the same, J.B.

[00:31:17] Any relationship past the present?

[00:31:19] Well, nothing with the present.

[00:31:20] You know, I do recall my grandfather, I think, would smoke a cigar from, you know, time to time.

[00:31:27] So, I do have that memory of it.

[00:31:29] So, and yeah, I think, you know, I knew you kind of prepped me for that question.

[00:31:33] So, but yeah, I think that's kind of, you know, I can visualize him, you know, dressed up as most people were, you know, years ago in old photos and things.

[00:31:43] And, you know, having a cigar and things.

[00:31:47] So, that kind of fit with his, you know, my memories of him.

[00:31:56] There's been a few guests who've talked about the grandfather or the uncle where the cigar is sort of like that.

[00:32:05] You smell it and it takes you back to that person, that moment.

[00:32:10] And smell is really the thing that can immediately, that sense pulls you back someplace.

[00:32:17] Yes, I agree.

[00:32:17] Snaps you back really fast.

[00:32:20] And the smell of cigars is somewhat unique.

[00:32:26] I can say this.

[00:32:28] I was once walking.

[00:32:31] My wife and I will go for a walk.

[00:32:33] You know Heidi.

[00:32:35] We'll go for a walk and I usually take a cigar and, you know, try to make sure the smoke's not broken.

[00:32:40] I don't know what it is.

[00:32:41] I don't know what it is.

[00:32:42] But we were out one day and she's like, you know, that cigar smells different.

[00:32:46] And I'm like, how so?

[00:32:50] And she's like, well, it smells like my grandfather's cigars when we go for a walk in the woods in Germany.

[00:32:56] And I said, well, did your grandfather smoke Cuban cigars?

[00:33:00] Because that's what this is.

[00:33:03] And what blew me away was, because we talked through it and it was probably a Cuban that her grandfather smoked because they were in Germany.

[00:33:10] And then I said, but she could tell the difference.

[00:33:16] From pedestrian or like I smoke the drones on a regular.

[00:33:21] Like that's a, you know, the store you can buy anywhere.

[00:33:27] It's really consistent.

[00:33:28] But she could take she could smell the difference between that and the Cuban cigar, which to me, if anybody ever is wondering whether or not that's a there's a real difference.

[00:33:36] That's a good story.

[00:33:38] I like that.

[00:33:38] My wife could smell the difference.

[00:33:42] Yeah.

[00:33:43] So I appreciate you taking the time.

[00:33:45] If you got any kind of questions around patents or intellectual property, I really recommend, you know, giving JB a call.

[00:33:55] He's happy to help you through the process.

[00:33:59] It's just it's a lot of a lot of dotting I's and crossing T's and putting things in the right boxes.

[00:34:08] It's not something I want to do.

[00:34:10] Yeah, it's happy to help with that.

[00:34:12] That's why the engine in law school helps.

[00:34:16] You're welcome.

[00:34:16] Thank you, Walter.

[00:34:17] Appreciate it.