Sales and Cigars | Kyle McDowell | Transforming Sales Culture| Episode 181

[00:00:00] Hey everyone, Walter Crosby with Helix Sales Development, your host of Sales and Cigars. Today's episode was just a ton of fun for me to record. A great guest, Kyle McDowell, he's wrote a great book about sales culture and starting with we. I really, really recommend,

[00:00:19] and I don't say this a lot, really recommend going and getting this book. We have a great conversation that was not planned, it just kind of started around Marcus Aurelius and Stoicism.

[00:00:30] And it's just great. So if you really want to make an impact on your sales culture and change how your culture for your whole company and change how you lead, whether you're an employee or

[00:00:44] an entrepreneur, this episode can help you. So go grab a cocktail, grab a cigar, strap in for another impactful episode of Sales and Cigars. Thanks. So Kyle, welcome to Sales and Cigars.

[00:01:11] I appreciate you taking some time to join us today. Hey Walter, man, it's really great to be here. Thanks for having me. I've been looking forward to this one for a little while. And I appreciate that. And you're not feeling well, you're a little under the

[00:01:26] weather and I appreciate you being a trooper here and pushing through this. So thank you. It's the world waits for no one. And as you mentioned, I am not feeling great, but what are you gonna do? Look good. Well, thank you. Thank you. What are you gonna do?

[00:01:41] I'm actually on my third bout with COVID, which is no fun, but a good conversation might be the cure. So I'm happy to be here. Well, let's hope that works. So let's talk a little bit about a book. You wrote a book, we're gonna get to that.

[00:02:01] But a book that if an entrepreneur, you know, you're engaged with them and you want to like, hey, you should read this book. Is there one that stands out? Is there one that you gift a lot?

[00:02:11] Is there one that you read on a regular basis? There is. Actually, there are a couple. And I'm gonna go on a limb and say no one has ever volunteered either of these books

[00:02:22] as an answer to your question because they're not business books. I'm a really big fan of Marcus Surrealius Meditations because from the book I'm gonna get into it, but I spent nearly 30 years in corporate America. And what you got there? Right on brother. All right, man. Okay. So

[00:02:45] then let me just stop here. Has anyone given that answer as one that they gift in a business context? I haven't talked to Ryan Holiday, so no. I think that would be one of the

[00:02:58] ones he would talk about on top of his books. But no, you're the first. But doesn't it have everything to do with business? It's got everything to do with life. And I think for whatever reason, we kind of, I'll say the royal, we've gotten into this place where

[00:03:22] work and our personal lives are separate and distinct and never the tween shall meet, which I think is a real shame. And for me that book was really powerful because as I started to say a moment ago, I spent a bunch of years in corporate America leading

[00:03:36] really massive organizations. And the first 20 of those 28 years, I was the bang on the desk, arrogant. I had all the right answers. I didn't need your help. I didn't need you actually.

[00:03:50] You just filled a purpose of a teammate or a team member for me. But what that book did for me, and it wasn't like this sentinel transformation that this book kicked off, it just reinforced what I was starting to learn probably five or six years ago.

[00:04:05] And that is the role that ego plays in our lives and more specifically, the role that ego plays in our leadership lives. And it just, it clicked in me and it clicked for me in so many ways that you know, it's our journey's personal and professional are really,

[00:04:25] they should be grounded in how do we make the most impact? How do we help others along their way and not focused on how do I become the most powerful guy in the room? How do I

[00:04:36] increase my span or my sphere of influence? You know, it's, I found and it's so, it's so, it's so hard for many to grasp. But for me, after leading tens of thousands of people, the biggest transformation in my leadership journey was when I stopped caring about

[00:04:51] my own accolades, my own success and started focusing that energy on those around me. The results came, the impact came and most of all my fulfillment was so much greater than anything I had experienced prior to that. And Marcus Aurelius and Meditations,

[00:05:07] which I think is so cool you have it behind you, that was not planned. It wasn't. Not planned. It's, and that's a book that I read regularly, especially when I'm struggling with,

[00:05:19] you know, I do a lot of public speaking in their times, I, you know, get a little self-conscious or have a little imposter syndrome, go right back to that book, man, and it puts me right back where I need to be. And that's the emphasis on the content,

[00:05:31] the mission that I have, and then I'm on, not about me and the praise that I'm otherwise seeking. So it's a powerful book for me. That's a great story. And I, and I think it emphasizes what,

[00:05:47] what Aurelius was really doing because that was never meant to be a book, right? It was just, it was his musings to himself. And it's, what I've known about the book, because I've got,

[00:05:58] I got two, two different translations of it back there. And what I found is that I can't sit down and read the book like you would read a book normally. Like I go to it in

[00:06:12] a similar situation that you described, like if there's something troubling me, or there's like something's just not right, I'll go take a chapter that kind of speaks to what, it doesn't

[00:06:27] really matter. But one that sort of speaks to the issues I'm having and then just kind of read through a few pages of it. And it just kind of brings you back, grounds you again. Isn't that crazy? It's 2000 years old, Walter. Why would it, it's 2000 years old.

[00:06:44] And it still has that impact on us. It's, but what's changed aside from some technology and, and cars, we still have the exact same problems that they had maybe a little bit for when I haven't as many plagues that they had, but COVID. There's, there's different, there's

[00:07:01] still strife in a Senate, there's still strife with different countries, warring people still don't like each other for reasons that aren't really important. Just this, this, this hate and social media has done the opposite of what it was intended to do. It's isolated us rather than

[00:07:21] brought us together. So I mean, I think it's a, you know, I also have the little coin that, that Ryan Holiday put on. For your audience, they might think we planned this. We did not

[00:07:36] We really, we really didn't. And my audience will like the look on my face when you said that, and I turned around to grab the book. They'll know that this wasn't a planned deal because it was,

[00:07:48] my expression was, surprised. So I know you may not want to spend a whole lot of time on this, but what's fascinating to me and for your audience that, for those that may not be aware,

[00:07:59] you know, this, this was Marcus Aurelis' journal from nearly 2000 years ago that he, as you mentioned, never intended for it to be public. But what's so fascinating to me is, and you kind of, if you were to juxtapose, imagine any leader today, leader of a country,

[00:08:16] you know, because back then he was arguably the most powerful, richest man in the world. He was for a while. Right? He would spend his day in battle or on the battlefield or, you know, doing whatever the emperor does. And he would come back in journal.

[00:08:32] And can you imagine the difference in today's content if any one of our leaders, you know, political affiliations aside, I'm not going there. Right? The content would be wildly different. Here's

[00:08:45] a guy who could buy anyone or anything 2000 years ago, but he spent his nights writing in a journal about the value of being eagerness and the importance of helping others. It's just, it's

[00:08:58] it's profound. It had a profound impact on me and a really quick story I'll share with you. So, when I first discovered this book was right around the time my book came out. And it's when I started

[00:09:10] my speaking journey, my speaking career. And I'll never forget a speech very early on. I was packing my gear up to run out to this office. It was a local architecture firm that

[00:09:22] I had scored a gig with. And the book was sitting on my desk. I grabbed my backpack, grabbed some other stuff. And I thought, you know, maybe that'll just okay, I'm feeling kind of

[00:09:33] maybe it's a little bit of a sign. I should just tuck this in my backpack. Not to read it or anything. Just let me tuck it in my backpack. As I tucked it in my backpack, I reached for

[00:09:41] it on my desk and I grabbed my thumb slit in and it opened to the most random page. And right there in the middle of that page was why be nervous. And it talked about

[00:09:52] the importance of just being authentic and being yourself and not being nervous about what other people think because their praise is kind of irrelevant. But it was just the moment that

[00:10:00] it was the right page, the right moment for me. And it was like almost like it was meant to be. It was really cool, cool thing. I ran out and showed my wife, I was like, look at this.

[00:10:09] And then I ran out to the architecture company. Well, they would call it the Stoics would call it Fortune, right? Yes. That's why that happened. And I think a lot of that, the thread that's connected you to the book is one of gratitude

[00:10:29] and being for what we have no matter what it is, whether you're emperor, because when he was growing up in the palace, he practiced wearing rough clothing and not participating in all of

[00:10:41] those. So he could take the riches and he could live without the riches. He knew that it didn't matter. But it was a, it's really about gratitude. And there's a gratitude journal out there.

[00:10:57] And I remember I had a plan where I wrote in this journal, you wrote in the morning sort of like kind of thought about what you were excited about or you're thankful for. And

[00:11:09] then at the end of the day, you did the same thing. And I started at the day after Thanksgiving and we always went away for Thanksgiving as a family. And I remember, you know, Thanksgiving

[00:11:22] morning, I got up and I handed it to my wife and I said, I did this for you. I did it for me, but I also did it for you because I don't share verbally some of the things that I think.

[00:11:36] Okay. And, you know, kind of brings tears to my eyes, but it, like she was in tears, you know, flipping through the book and, you know, like you did this, like,

[00:11:50] yeah, if you go through and look at any page and look at the date, you'll see that it's relevant to something that was going on that day. And I just wrote, right? And I had it in

[00:12:01] mind that I was going to give it to her, but that wasn't the theme. And I tell you, the idea of being grateful for what you have no matter what it is, you know, if it's just a pile

[00:12:12] of crap, you know, you're still better off than some folks. You know, when I lived in New York, I would walk into my building or walk out of the building and there was always this one

[00:12:24] homeless man who would be there. He kind of looked like Santa Claus, right? He had big belly and he always let his belly hang out. And, you know, he wouldn't take anything like he

[00:12:35] wouldn't take food. He wouldn't take money. He was very grumpy. But like I always thought, no matter how crappy of a day I had, I'm going home to an apartment. I'm not living on the

[00:12:46] street. And I don't have that odor about me. But it's all about the gratitude. I think that's one of the things that comes out of the, really, your meditations. Perspective is a hell of a thing, right? And I don't disagree with what you said. Gratitude plays

[00:13:05] a tremendous part in that book. For me, it was more about ego. I think what stood in the way of me being a pretty good leader to being a really effective leader was setting that ego aside.

[00:13:18] And by the way, I think that's leadership aside. I think, well, like you mentioned, Ryan Holiday, ego is the enemy. And it's what it stands in the way of so many people's journey to excellence or a more impactful existence because we got to be right.

[00:13:38] And I still struggle with it. It's not a light switch, but I think that book played a huge role in my identification. That and I mentioned earlier there was two books. The second book

[00:13:47] is The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle, which was really, what do you think of that one? It, I find that I read it and I put it in the bookshelf in the house powerful but really like holding a mirror up to what you,

[00:14:09] of the things that you don't want to look at. Right? Because to me, ego, there's a fear in us that we have the ego, right, to protect something we're afraid of.

[00:14:20] And his book is just kind of like shines a light on a lot of that stuff that you don't want to look at. And like you said, whether it be business or at home, friends, family, all of these things

[00:14:38] go through that and when we can let some of that go. So when you give that book to somebody, what's the follow-up on that? Do they actually get through that whole thing? I don't usually follow up because I look at reading a lot like fitness or,

[00:14:59] well, I'll leave it at that. People know, we all know we need to be active. We know we should be active. We know we should burn calories. We know we should keep our heart rate.

[00:15:10] You know, we should be active. But you can't make someone do that until they find their own motivation. And I think these types of books are the same thing. Like, I'll never forget my best friend, Guy grew up, known since I was 10 years old.

[00:15:25] He was going through some, this is many years ago, he's going through some tough times, going through a divorce. And he said the power of now had a huge impact on him getting

[00:15:35] through some really tough times. And he gave me the book and I gave it about 10 minutes and I said, this is not for me. I'm not reading this. And only to circle back probably three,

[00:15:46] four, maybe five years later. And for now, it's probably top three most impactful books of my whole life. But I wasn't ready for it then. And you've got to be ready for you to be able to accept

[00:15:58] it and get into it. That's it. That's it. Otherwise, you come across like this whole year than now, I'm smarter than you. I'm more evolved than you, which alienates people, doesn't encourage them to reach for that book. So I just say, you know, take it.

[00:16:12] I give the backstory of what it is and the impact that's had on me, but I don't follow up because I don't, it's got to come to you on your own time, like you say. My daughter just graduated university last week. Congratulations.

[00:16:28] I didn't have a lot to do with it. She did all the heavy lifting. But I gave her three books. And I'm like, you're not going to be ready for all of these, but don't throw them away.

[00:16:45] Hold on to them. And, but it was just interesting that you said, you know, they got to be ready. And there's a couple of them that they're all impactful for her at a 22 year old trying to figure out what to do with her next move.

[00:17:01] And they would all, they would all help her, but she won't, she's not ready for all of those books. And it'll be too overwhelming. So she's, but she hasn't Would you give her? I gave her the 38 letters that

[00:17:17] John D. Rockefeller wrote to his son. I gave her how to raise your own salary. And Michael Gerber's the emeth. Because she started her own business as a junior to help finance her horse riding habit.

[00:17:38] We put a cap on it and she wanted more. So she figured out a way to get more. That's beautiful. Very cool. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. Kind of, I want her to be an entrepreneur. And, you know, all of those things will help her

[00:17:53] realize that she can do whatever hell she wants. You just got to be willing to to do what it takes to get there and not have to make all the same mistakes that her old man made along the way.

[00:18:06] Why do I need to read 38 letters? Cause that got my attention. He was a fairly successful fellow. I'll say misunderstood. One of the things that he talks about is, is how certain people are weak.

[00:18:26] And when you read a sentence that he talks about, you know, people are a certain group of people are weak. If you have the whole context, it's like, oh, and he thinks that

[00:18:38] people that are really wealthy and have much abundance about them, but don't use it in a productive fashion. Those are the worst people on the planet. Amen. And he was trying to get his

[00:18:55] son to realize that you're starting ahead of the game than most people in this country. And you need to act like you have an advantage and respect that advantage and go out and, you know,

[00:19:14] give more than, than you think you should. And he was just trying to, it goes back to meditation. So it's about certain virtues that rockfellers and have them as simple, but it's, it's very similar to the stuff that Andrew Carnegie was, was his philosophy, those 17 rules.

[00:19:37] I mean, it's all, it's all intertwined. Right. And you know, she has that book as well. It's a, it's interesting to me, like when, the reason I like to ask that question, and normally we don't go 18 minutes into the conversation, but that's fine because it

[00:19:57] really helps me understand and helps the audience understand how this person thinks. Right. By the books that they read, the books that they give away. And I mean, you shared a lot, I appreciate that.

[00:20:11] And it speaks to, you know, your journey as to how you were a younger guy and, you know, I don't need you, you're just filling a spot was paraphrasing your line. But it's informed

[00:20:25] how you've, you've gone to a different leadership style. So I think that's a great place to go and talk about the book, right? It's over your right shoulder. Let's, let's get into it because we

[00:20:39] talk a little bit about culture. You know, why it's always an interesting reason like why did we write the book? And what did you, what do you want people to, you know, take action on? And how do you see this impacting them?

[00:20:55] Hey, thanks for being part of sales and cigars. I wanted to share a new project that we just launched. I wrote a new book called scale your sales. It's written for the CEO. It's a short,

[00:21:06] powerful book that explains the seven critical mistakes that CEOs make with their sales organization. It provides actionable steps that you can take to fix those problems in your business today that might even help you get out of the sales seat yourselves. So

[00:21:22] appreciate you listening to sales and cigars. You can find this book on Amazon or wherever you buy books. Yeah, so maybe for your audience, a bit of context. I spent nearly 30 years leading really massive organizations inside of corporate America. I worked for three fortune 10 firms.

[00:21:41] I've led tens of thousands of people for some context, my last two roles before I stepped away from the corporate world. I led north of 30,000 people for names that you are familiar with. And gosh, it was probably right around 2017 where I hit a wall that the whole

[00:22:05] corporate America engine had just worn me out. One word to describe me at that time was apathetic. But I had it all, man. Air quotes. I had it all. I had the fancy titles. I had the really cool

[00:22:18] corner offices, sometimes multiple offices around the country with the couch in my conference room and all the things that were the signs to me that I had made it. But I started to loathe

[00:22:31] the very environments that I was creating. And I had this moment where my health was failing. I had a pending divorce. I just wasn't a very happy guy. And I stepped away from

[00:22:47] corporate America and I really had no plan. I didn't know what I was going to do next. And I got a phone call a couple of weeks after stepping away, which proved to be really

[00:22:56] serendipitous that I was open to the idea of leading this organization of about 14 or 15,000 people that I was warned had a bit of a dysfunctional thread through it and maybe even bore it on toxicity.

[00:23:15] And I told my, I made a promise to myself, if I was going to go back into the corporate fray, it was going to be under my own terms. In other words, I wanted to be the leader

[00:23:24] that I'd never had. I wanted to lead differently. I didn't know what that meant at the time. I just knew that. But you knew you wanted something different. That's right, brother. And what's that definition of insanity? Right? Do the same thing over and

[00:23:37] expect a different result. I was at least smart. I'm not the smartest guy in the room, not even close, especially now in this room. I knew I needed to try something different. So

[00:23:49] and to really be careful what you wish for moment. I took the role, fast forward about 60 days into the role. I had requested that the top 40 or 50 leaders of my organization all come together because that was going to be my moment to share with the team

[00:24:05] what the road ahead would look like. It's my first time meeting many of them. I needed them to kind of see me. I needed to see them. We had to start a relationship. And

[00:24:14] the night before I was to meet with them, Walter, I was terrified. I had no idea what I was going to say. I just knew it had to be different. And I knew it couldn't be the classic

[00:24:25] I'm here to save the day, look at my shiny shoes and my start shirt and my fancy NBA from the number one business like that's that's I knew that would be not well received. So

[00:24:36] the night before I'm in my hotel room in Lawrence, Kansas, I had had my laptop in my lap. And I said, let me put a PowerPoint together. A couple hours later with with no pre-planning,

[00:24:49] all I had was 10 sentences and each one of those sentences began and still do begin with the word we. And because I'm not all that creative, I said, okay, well, I got the 10 weeks.

[00:24:59] I stepped out the next morning to share the 10 weeks with my team, my new team. And I was very clear by the way, the whole presentation was in black and white. I said, because these are the principles that are they will define who we are. And number one,

[00:25:14] they dictate and they kind of govern how we treat each other first. I'm not worried about the customer yet. I'm not worried about external validation, not worried about anything other than our behavior

[00:25:24] towards one another. And I got really stern at one point of the presentation. I said, make no mistake, I will hold you accountable to these principles like it's and if you don't think

[00:25:35] you can live them, put your hand up now or come see me later. I'll help you find another role, but you're not going to be on this team. And I can be this direct because I expect you and

[00:25:44] I mean it. This is not lip service. I mean it. You must hold me accountable as well. And when you see me deviate from any one of these principles, I didn't even call them principles at the time.

[00:25:53] I think I just said the wheeze, any one of these wheeze. I literally said, grab me by the ear and say, Kyle, you're being hypocrite. And what transpired or unfolded in the next 18 to 24 months was really transformational business results reached all time highs and nearly

[00:26:12] every measurable. I watched people transition from bosses to leaders and the impact that these principles, not me, but these principles had on that organization was so strong. I haven't worked

[00:26:26] there in north of five years. I still have one on ones with a number of people that I worked with while I was within that organization, which is really, I think rare. All right, long story

[00:26:37] short, I leave that organization, go to join another company where I thought I could really evangelize these same principles and it's a bigger organization. I thought I could have a bigger impact and I was smack in the face and learn that sometimes an organization's

[00:26:48] of toxicity is just too ingrained in the DNA. So I gave that about a year and I stepped away once and for all from corporate America. And I started to get phone calls

[00:27:00] from my previous team, the team before that and say, okay, you're on the bench. You got this non-compete. It's time to write your book. And I said, write a book. What are you talking about?

[00:27:09] I'm never going to write a book. Are you kidding me? Well, I ended up writing the book and it became a USA Today in Wall Street Journal bestseller and it's called Begin With We.

[00:27:18] And the whole foundation of the book is those 10 principles. And at the end of the day, the bumper sticker is we give a lot of time and energy into training people how to do their job.

[00:27:30] We don't spend a lot of time and energy in instructing or setting real high expectations on how we treat each other, how we behave behind the curtains. And I'm just convinced that when it happened, the more high functioning we are behind the scenes,

[00:27:46] we take care of each other, we look out for each other. We're not just focused on our own success. But when we're focused on the we, the collective we, the results just come, man.

[00:27:56] They come so much easier. And the fulfillment is so much greater. So that's the back story. And that's kind of my mission today is to evangelize these principles as wide and far

[00:28:06] as I can because I believe in them so strongly. And I've seen, since I've been doing it like on my own now for the last couple of years, I've seen organizations transform that I'm

[00:28:16] not even a part of, but having watched them adopt the 10 ways has been kind of the epiphany that they they needed to shot in the arm and how to approach one another that they didn't have before. Great story. I don't know how you did 28 years in corporate America.

[00:28:36] That scars the brother. I'm sure you do. It has a negative effect on you. As you said, your health and personal relationships and they're not always how do I say the virtues are different than what we've talked about earlier in this session. Well, that implies there are virtues.

[00:29:01] I was being generous. Bear generous. But you're right. You're right. It doesn't have to be this way. And that's where I'm like a broken record with that. Why do we lose humanity when we step into the workplace? Why do we care? We're wired to help one another.

[00:29:18] Right. It's in our biology. It is. It truly is. And when we fight it is when we start to have this internal conflict and then that creates conflict with other people. So I mean, I got a question from that story.

[00:29:33] You sat down in a hotel room in Lawrence, Kansas and wrote a PowerPoint in black and white with 10 we statements. Were those part of you or was that where it was born? It's where I was born. Yeah, no muse on my shoulder either, man.

[00:29:55] I pressure it was your muse. Yeah, maybe that was it. Yeah, you're right. You know, a quick parenthetical to that story is one of the fellows in the room came up to me afterwards and was so moved by it.

[00:30:09] He said, I really want to share this with my team. Can you send me that presentation? I said, of course, Nick, absolutely. And I would love for you to evangelize these, you know, but by the way, I didn't force the principles on anyone.

[00:30:18] I just said, this is how I'm going to treat you. And I expect you to hold me the same. But if you want to create an 11th week, a 12th week, that's up to you. But here's how here's who we are.

[00:30:28] This is going to be our, we will be known for this. And he said, man, I'm so excited to share this. Well, he was, he was man enough to admit days or weeks later, I don't recall now that he only wanted that PowerPoint because he wanted to check

[00:30:41] the properties to see if I was the one who created the file. He thought I stole it from somewhere. Seriously? So yeah, man, we're great friends today. And I was quick to be offended, but it lasted about 10 seconds. And then I realized, wow, okay.

[00:31:01] What is that expression Walter? Like imitation is sincere form of flattering. So it occurred to me that it resonated with him. He just didn't want to give me the credit for it. And that was part of my ego separation.

[00:31:12] It was like, I don't, you don't have to think I birthed these. That's fine. They're not going away. But it was, it was not, it was all new to me. And in the caveat I always give, whether on stage or when I'm talking

[00:31:24] to folks, even in a personal basis is they are very simple. These principles are very simple, but simple does not mean easy. Right. Not close. Simple sometimes is hard because it's so simple. Right? We don't have any room to wiggle out of it. It's so right there.

[00:31:46] I want people to get the book and read it, but pick one of the wheeze if you would, if you wouldn't mind that would have impact because we have a lot of entrepreneurs

[00:32:00] that are interested in sales or sitting in a sales seat and they're trying to get out. They can get the book and get the whole, the whole package, but can you share one of those that might have impact on a sales organization or leading a sales organization?

[00:32:18] I mean, I'm being a little selfish, but it's your show. You can do that. Right. But my answer is going to be the same, whether this is a sales show or whether it is a bowling show, any team.

[00:32:34] My answer would be the same and whether it's a high school football team or a group of executives that are a part of a team, it's we number eight and that's we challenge each other.

[00:32:45] I think challenge has such a negative connotation in so many environments and it is usually associated with one direction. In other words, the boss is the only one allowed to issue challenges, lower, increase the budget or increase your quota rather.

[00:33:06] I'm going to challenge you to do more with less however you want to frame it. But we challenge each other. It was written under the auspice of peer to peer, challenges are a must, team member to leader, challenges are a must.

[00:33:23] And this is part of it's kind of an interesting way that we started this conversation because part of my evolution was setting aside that ego had I not done that, I never would have been open to challenge.

[00:33:35] And it's patently impossible that one person leading an organization of any size has all the intel, has all the answers. And the only way we get to the right answer or the best way to get to the right answer is by being open to challenge.

[00:33:50] So if I walk into my favorite example is this, when our organization became ripe with challenges and now I see it all the time in my coaching business, my favorite place to see this in action is staff meetings.

[00:34:04] I remember my staff meetings when I first joined that organization, I'd sit at the end of the table like everybody else. We'd have a few people around the table go around the table, give their updates. And while one person speaking, everyone else in the room is

[00:34:16] you know, praying to their phone or they're over here on their laptop. They're not even paying attention. Why? Because historically, that's a I'm giving the boss information, the boss hears something, he challenges back and they go back and forth.

[00:34:28] And that no one else in the room feels as if they are even allowed to say, whoa, wait, hang on a second. I was at another organization and we had a similar problem we were trying to solve. We took this approach. You guys are taking that approach.

[00:34:41] We should probably think about something different here. And I'm being generic on purpose, but the point is, the more voices at the table, those that are not allowed but obligated. Now, to be very fair and be very clear, a challenge must be grounded in either data or experience.

[00:34:58] Otherwise, it's your opinion. We all have those and you know how the rest of that cliche goes. So that for me, especially in a sales environment, being open to challenge allows us to find the ideal outcome, the ideal solution. It gets the best ideas on the table.

[00:35:15] It also gets the worst ideas on the table. So we have an inventory from which to choose. And I just think the more that we can all be, oh, and by the way, we number nine, the one that follows it immediately is we embrace challenge

[00:35:28] because one without the other is a recipe for chaos. But I think it's all connected to what we talked about earlier, brother, and the importance of ego, the role that ego plays in allowing us to be open to challenges.

[00:35:40] It really creates an environment where others can be heard. The best idea is when we have a meritocracy of sorts. And it just creates a connection between team members and leader that I don't think is there otherwise. Otherwise, I'm just I'm managing not leading. I'm just barking orders.

[00:35:57] I'm telling you what to do instead of being open to challenging me on what we should do. The idea to me when you said challenge and you said it had a negative connotation, I had to think about that for a second because I think about a challenge.

[00:36:15] I mean, even when I do a sales call and you go through a discovery process and you're asking questions, one of the phrases that I use is a prospect will make a statement or a customer will make a statement. And I'm like, that's interesting.

[00:36:35] You mind if I push back on that idea just a little bit? And then I share a different perspective where it's not you're wrong. Yeah. It's like, this is how I see it from my vantage point. What am I missing?

[00:36:52] And I don't think it's exactly what you're talking about, but it's really, I've always thought of it as like I'm trying to get someplace better than where I am. And if you get three people in a room and you can get four or five ideas out of that,

[00:37:08] one of them, two of them combined, three of them combined are going to be better than the one that the leader, the boss came in with an idea thinking that they're not open to listening

[00:37:24] to their team. Then why do we have a team? It's sort of the issue. It's simple, but getting people to feel comfortable enough to push back is often a challenge. Simple is not easy, right? Like we said, simple is not easy.

[00:37:42] And what it did for me and those that I worked with in the last couple of years trying to really push this principle is it allows, as I mentioned, the best ideas to come, but it also creates, so I'll just give you the straight on example.

[00:38:02] So Walter, let's pretend you and I, you report to me, you're on my team and your sales numbers are down enough so that we need to have a conversation. Now, you've already subscribed to the 10 Wies. You're on this team and you're living them

[00:38:17] and you're helping kind of cascade and evangelize them throughout the organization. And since you're struggling and you've already admitted that these are the principles by which we operate, it's so much easier for me to say, hey, Walter, listen, man,

[00:38:29] we challenge each other. Right? And you know, because we've talked about this, it's coming with data or experience. I'm not going to be, it's not personal. It's not. It's not. And it just creates a safe, and I watched it happen so many times.

[00:38:44] It creates a safe space. And you did it, by the way, because you're a savvy sales guy. You mind if I push back on that a little bit? That's your version of, hey, we challenge each other. Right? Because I don't have an agreement with that prospect

[00:38:58] at that point. And I'm just getting them to agree that it's okay for me to challenge. And you'd be surprised very rarely does somebody tell me no. Of course. I don't want to hear.

[00:39:09] Of course. The other side of that coin is the absence of challenge, the boss says, they don't even give that kind of caveat or disclaimer before they go in. They just say, here's what we're doing or you're wrong. Let's go this direction.

[00:39:21] But entering the conversation, even the awkward and difficult ones by saying, hey, we challenge each other. Right? It disarm you. Right? Yeah. Just brings it back like, oh yeah, this is okay. We agreed to this.

[00:39:36] And I'm in a spot where I could use a little help and support here. And by the way, I would go a step further and tell my teams if you are on the receiving end of a challenge and you cannot connect that challenge to data or experience,

[00:39:49] you are not obliged to listen. Walk away because that's someone's opinion and that's not helpful, especially in business. If you can't back that opinion up with data or experience, then you're just complaining. There's no, there's no value.

[00:40:03] I love it. I love it. So best place to get the book. Do you got it on your website? You got it in Amazon? Where do we get the book? Wherever books are sold, my man. We are, I have to do a selfless, a selfish plug. We

[00:40:18] just crossed 10,000 copies sold, which is mind bending to me, man. That's awesome. So yeah, it's wherever books are sold. I think Amazon's probably the easiest, but it's at Barnes and Noble Target. You know, essentially anywhere you buy books, it's out there, but Amazon is clearly the quickest.

[00:40:33] Well, I would, just based on this conversation alone and the research I've done, this is something that I'm going to pick up a couple of copies and share with some people. Thank you. I think could use some help, support around these ideas.

[00:40:52] And it's interesting because I guess I was doing this. I had a job where a toxic kind of place and a boss who was very bossy. And I remember I screwed something up badly.

[00:41:13] And I went into his office and I said, hey, I think I screwed up and it's going to cost us some money. And he had his back to me, he was on his computer and he goes, cost us some money?

[00:41:25] And I'm like, yeah, you're going to take it in the shorts on some equipment and I'm not going to get a commission. So we're in this together. So he said, it says, you know,

[00:41:33] sit down and we had a 45 minute conversation where we figured out how to get the five back and another 10 in an ethical way. And had I not done that and tried to hide it? Right. But that was really, really hard to do because of the environment.

[00:41:55] Right. And I just felt it was the right thing to do. Like if I screw up, I want to be the first person to own it and go tell the boss that, hey, I screwed this up so he

[00:42:04] doesn't hear about it from somebody else. I got respect and got all the other things that come along with that. But I think if people had courage, isn't the right word, belief in themselves maybe

[00:42:18] to go and even when you have a difficult situation to go engage with that. I think you can be a leader in your role no matter what the role is. Amen. And have a positive effect on the organization.

[00:42:35] So it is going to appear as if we planted this just like the meditation's conversation, but you just point and use the same words to, man. We number five is we own our mistakes. Hmm. Okay. You just, you took us there. I didn't plant that.

[00:42:52] And no, nobody is going to own a mistake unless they feel as if they're in an environment where what you described is what happens. Someone's going to reach a handout and say, all right, you blew it. Now, there's no place for mistakes that are connected to malice.

[00:43:10] Right. Most mistakes are really from an effort to do something good. And those are opportunities for us to learn. I don't think people judge by mistakes. I think people judge by how quickly we remedy the mistake. If we repeat the mistake,

[00:43:24] but people are going to stumble. I don't know about you, man. When somebody, when somebody airs and it impacts me, but they run like hell to remedy that mistake and to assure me it never happens again, I'm more loyal after that

[00:43:36] than I was before the mistake ever happened. Judge me by not that I made a mistake, but how I handled fixing the mistake. Right? That's it. That's it. None of this happens without the leader establishing this place where people

[00:43:50] feel comfortable. And I tell the story in the book about a $10 million mistake that a guy on my team, coincidentally, is the same fella I mentioned earlier that asked for their PowerPoint to prove that I was the creator. He made a $10 million mistake.

[00:44:03] And he owned it. He called me one evening. We fixed it. And that type of mistake never happened again. And he's better for it. We were better off for it. Our client

[00:44:12] was better off for it. So you said it, brother. You need to be able to own them. That's right. All right. Last question, Kyle. Relationship, pastor, president with cigars? You know, I live in Tampa and you being the expert that you are,

[00:44:32] I bet you can connect those dots of the cigar market or the presence of cigars here in Tampa is serious. Ebor City is a little bit of a hub. I can see it from my balcony actually. I could walk to Ebor City.

[00:44:50] You know, I enjoy a cigar maybe once or twice a year. One of my best friends, can I follow these dots if you can, but one of my best friends, his father-in-law, I spend most of my holidays with this family and every year on these big holidays,

[00:45:07] usually Christmas and Thanksgiving, he'll pull out a handful of cigars that he identified earlier in the year and you save them for Kyle, Kevin and whoever else is on hand and wants one. I wouldn't

[00:45:23] say that I'm a fan but I'm also not negative or dislike cigars. What I like is the camaraderie and the connection that comes while enjoying them. I just feel like it disarms people and it

[00:45:35] just makes us like in this conversation, dude. I say you puff on it. It makes, I don't know, it disarms me. It's just a very comforting thing and I enjoy the smell as well.

[00:45:43] I just don't do it very often. Yeah. Well, I mean, you're a healthy guy and they're not exactly the healthy activity but we all have our vices. Yeah. And I think for me to tag onto your story,

[00:46:01] those are moments. I had a guest once like, I don't smoke cigars all that much but my sons, they both enjoy them. They're both veterans and they came back with enjoying cigars and it was

[00:46:15] meaningful to these kids who were in Afghanistan and Baghdad when they could enjoy a cigar with with their friends. I mean, it was a respite from what they were dealing with. So he took up this like when they get together, they come over for dinner,

[00:46:34] they come to watch a game, they go out on the deck and the three of them, his two boys and him would enjoy a cigar for similar reasons. It's just a chance to really connect and be grounded for 45 minutes. What's better than that? How much?

[00:46:55] It's a moment. Maybe it's an old guy thing that I've developed in the last few years but I'm trying to collect experiences, not things and that's when you ask a question. I think it's immediately

[00:47:08] where my brain went is Ryan, Kevin, Kyle and Eddie, two eddies hanging out puffing on a cigar. I don't know what the hell I'm smoking. Couldn't tell you anything about it. I just know it relaxes me and I enjoy the camaraderie and conversation that it comes

[00:47:25] that comes with it. Awesome. Great story. Yeah, I appreciate it. So people can go grab the book, like give us a title one more time and we can get it at Amazon, Barnes and Noble. Anywhere you buy books, begin with we 10 principles for building and sustaining a culture

[00:47:44] of excellence. It's a good one. I really encourage everybody out there that this is going to be something that can be impactful to your business and to your life in general. So I appreciate this was fun. I'm glad you suffered through the COVID. You shined even though you're

[00:48:06] a little under the weather. So thank you. Yeah, I so appreciate the opportunity, Walter. You're a good dude. I enjoyed the conversation as well. It made the COVID feel,

[00:48:16] well, I didn't feel it the last 40 minutes or so. So thank you. All right, go back to bed. Thank you.