Sales and Cigars | Matt Anderson | The Competition Paradox | Episode 176

[00:00:00] Hey, Walter Crosby with Helix Sales Development, your host of Sales and Cigars.

[00:00:04] Today's episode is how to think different about marketing with my buddy Matt Anderson.

[00:00:08] And we're going to talk about the competition paradox.

[00:00:12] What does that mean?

[00:00:13] Well, that's what we're going to get into.

[00:00:15] But the way you think about your competition, the way you talk about your competition has

[00:00:20] a significant effect on your offers as a significant effect on how you're perceived

[00:00:27] by your prospects.

[00:00:29] It's really important.

[00:00:30] I mean, your competition isn't just the other companies that are selling something that is

[00:00:35] similar to yours.

[00:00:37] It's the status quo is probably your biggest competitor.

[00:00:41] So we're going to talk about those words that we use, how to fight for that space

[00:00:46] in our prospects mind.

[00:00:48] So go grab a cocktail, grab a cigar, strap in for another impactful episode of

[00:00:52] Sales and Cigars.

[00:01:16] So Matt, welcome back to Sales and Cigars.

[00:01:17] We appreciate you taking some more time today.

[00:01:19] Yeah, thanks, Walter.

[00:01:20] This is always a lot of fun.

[00:01:22] I think it's great to get some marketing people and salespeople together.

[00:01:26] We're all talking about how to persuade customers, but from very different

[00:01:31] perspectives.

[00:01:32] From different perspectives.

[00:01:33] And I was talking to a guy today, sort of a little tangent here, but I was

[00:01:39] interviewing the sales manager for a client and he said sales and marketing,

[00:01:44] marketing and sales, it's all the same thing.

[00:01:47] And I almost ended the interview at that moment because it's like they're not.

[00:01:52] They're completely different stages in the levels of engagement.

[00:01:57] We need to be congruent.

[00:01:59] There's a lot of things that we need to be able to play nice in the

[00:02:02] sandbox, but that's just dumb, a dumb statement in my mind.

[00:02:07] But what I was at a sales conference last week and they have their

[00:02:14] marketing person who does enterprise marketing and sort of that big

[00:02:19] level marketing stuff.

[00:02:21] And in the last couple of years, she has stated that her feeling is that

[00:02:29] marketing and sales are getting along better.

[00:02:32] We're sharing data.

[00:02:33] We're sitting at the same table and explaining, if you do that, we get this.

[00:02:38] Yeah.

[00:02:39] Because of that conversation that's happening internally, the outcomes are

[00:02:43] wildly better.

[00:02:44] We're going faster.

[00:02:46] Totally.

[00:02:47] Yeah.

[00:02:47] I, it's, uh, I think that, uh, the advent of modern CRM systems and then,

[00:02:54] uh, the marketing analytics software that has, uh, emerged over the last

[00:03:00] five or 10 years has really exposed, uh, in ways that we can understand

[00:03:07] what is actually happening in our sales and marketing processes.

[00:03:11] Uh, early in my career when, uh, CRM systems were less advanced and, uh,

[00:03:15] there was very little, uh, in the way of marketing automation software.

[00:03:19] Uh, most of my clients, uh, very often what would happen is there'd

[00:03:23] be a come to Jesus moment and sales would be pointed at marketing

[00:03:26] and saying, you know, our revenue is down because marketing is

[00:03:29] failing and marketing would be pointed at sales and saying, well,

[00:03:32] we're delivering to you all these leads.

[00:03:33] What are you doing with them?

[00:03:35] And they're all crap leads and they're not worth the time and

[00:03:38] blah, blah, blah.

[00:03:39] But I think that's the changing we do the technology doing to the analytics,

[00:03:44] but also just we're having the conversations.

[00:03:47] They're sitting at the same table.

[00:03:48] Everybody's wearing their big boy pants or big girl pants.

[00:03:51] Right.

[00:03:52] And they're willing to have open and honest and transparent

[00:03:54] conversations because when we do that as leaders, when we do that

[00:03:58] in a company, we get better.

[00:04:01] It's really simple.

[00:04:02] Just communication.

[00:04:03] Yeah, definitely.

[00:04:05] None of this stuff is rocket science.

[00:04:06] Uh, so often the path to get in what you want in terms of your sales

[00:04:11] and marketing is a lot of very simple blocking and tackling, uh, and

[00:04:16] solving one problem at a time until you have a message and a sales

[00:04:21] process that work hand in glove to attract the attention of your

[00:04:25] customers, persuade them that what you're offering is compelling

[00:04:28] and then calling them to action until they buy.

[00:04:31] Uh, and when you can see every step of that process, when you

[00:04:34] have the data that allows you to understand exactly what's going on,

[00:04:38] you can identify the weak spots in that messaging and in that

[00:04:41] sales process pretty quickly.

[00:04:43] And very often the solution is not that complicated.

[00:04:47] It's just, uh, you didn't realize you weren't addressing

[00:04:50] objections that the customer had, or you didn't see that there

[00:04:54] is a disconnect in one part of your, uh, your outreach approach.

[00:05:00] Or, uh, you know, Hey, in this particular meeting, most of our

[00:05:03] customers drop off.

[00:05:05] Is that because, uh, we brought in a bunch of customers that really

[00:05:09] shouldn't be buying anyway?

[00:05:11] Or is that because, uh, we're messaging something incorrectly?

[00:05:14] Or it was too early in the process, right?

[00:05:16] I mean, all those things are there.

[00:05:18] That data is there.

[00:05:19] And I think that that segues us to where we want to go where

[00:05:23] I'm holding up the book again.

[00:05:24] Um, you know, first fix your message.

[00:05:27] I think this helps us get all of those pieces right.

[00:05:32] So if we, if we do a little bit of that work on the front end and we really

[00:05:36] understand who we're talking to, why we're talking to them, what their

[00:05:39] fears are, what their desires are, you know, what they really give a shit about,

[00:05:43] you know, to put it in plain vernacular.

[00:05:45] Um, then we can craft the right words to, to help them get there.

[00:05:49] Um, most recently when we talked, we talked about offers.

[00:05:53] Um, we talked about what was important there.

[00:05:55] Um, and, you know, so we're kind of jumping around the book a little

[00:05:58] bit based on, on my whimsy maybe.

[00:06:02] But, um, I want to go back to, um, page 40 in the book and early in the book,

[00:06:10] there's a great little triangle that you've broken into, um, different shapes.

[00:06:16] And I think the, the, the competition paradox is, is the

[00:06:21] right way to look at that.

[00:06:22] Can you talk a little bit about that?

[00:06:25] Yeah.

[00:06:25] So, so we were talking about how most of these problems, uh, in sales and

[00:06:30] marketing often have, you know, simple answers to them.

[00:06:35] And one of my goals in this book is to give people who read it, uh, and,

[00:06:39] and it's written explicitly for sales managers and entrepreneurs, uh, to

[00:06:43] give them frameworks they can use to think about marketing productively.

[00:06:47] And what I'm trying to do is take away the jargon and the complexity

[00:06:51] and the, you know, you need this funnel and you need this digital, uh,

[00:06:56] uh, advertising strategy.

[00:06:58] And, uh, you know, so much of the conversation around marketing

[00:07:01] these days adds complexity to it.

[00:07:03] And that we can get lost in the weeds.

[00:07:06] Uh, and so that pyramid is really an attempt to visually present the

[00:07:12] kind of key things that drive your marketing success.

[00:07:15] And so, you know, this messaging pyramid says that the, at the

[00:07:18] foundation, at the base of the pyramid are the insights that you have as an

[00:07:22] entrepreneur or as a sales manager into what your customer wants, what your

[00:07:26] competitors are offering and the unique features of your product and service.

[00:07:31] Right?

[00:07:31] If you don't have an understanding of what you're selling, who you're

[00:07:35] selling it to and the competition that you face, uh, odds that you're

[00:07:40] going to get your marketing right the first time are fairly low.

[00:07:43] And then we move up that pyramid.

[00:07:45] Those insights get, then get transitioned into a core set of stories

[00:07:50] that you tell that message what your product is, why the customer wants to

[00:07:55] buy it, why the customer should buy it and why the offer is compelling.

[00:08:00] And then at the very top, once you have your message nailed down,

[00:08:04] then you can begin to translate that into all the different assets

[00:08:08] that you need to get that message in front of your customer, whether

[00:08:11] it's your ads or your landing pages, your website, brochures, trade, uh,

[00:08:16] trade show, booze, uh, collateral, all of that stuff.

[00:08:19] Those are assets that are vehicles for communicating parts of your

[00:08:24] message, uh, in a particular sequence with particular timing, uh, so

[00:08:29] that it gets in front of your ideal customers.

[00:08:31] Um, so, uh, is that, is that tracking with you, Walter?

[00:08:35] Oh, I mean, but the pyramid is constructed from the foundation and

[00:08:40] we get, we build that and we go up from there.

[00:08:43] And the, the, the pretty stuff that everybody realizes the collateral,

[00:08:47] the, the, the vehicles, as you say, um, those, those are the output

[00:08:52] from doing the, the, the work of making sure we understand what it

[00:08:57] is we're selling and how we should talk about it.

[00:09:00] Yeah, exactly.

[00:09:01] And one of the things that one of the kind of the key insights in

[00:09:05] messaging pyramid is that, uh, the job of the entrepreneur, uh, is to get

[00:09:11] the insights right and to contribute to getting the message right.

[00:09:15] Uh, and this is one of the big mistakes that people often make when

[00:09:18] they approach their marketing is they just assume that, uh, they'll kind

[00:09:22] of vomit a bunch of input at their marketing people, and then it's

[00:09:25] the job of the marketers to go and make it sound good and be pretty.

[00:09:29] And, uh, the advertising industry has really done, uh, I think

[00:09:33] a disservice to its clients over the years by downplaying the role of

[00:09:38] what the client actually contributes and claiming too much for what they're

[00:09:42] able to do in the absence of a commending message from the customer.

[00:09:46] So, uh, the ideas in this book really come out of my having an

[00:09:50] epiphany early in my career that when our advertising campaigns failed,

[00:09:55] they failed in part or largely in part because we didn't do a good job

[00:10:00] of extracting the message from our customers.

[00:10:03] And so, uh, you know, while we might've done a great job making the

[00:10:07] message they did give us, uh, look good or sound interesting, uh, when

[00:10:12] that message wasn't fundamentally compelling to start with, uh, we

[00:10:15] weren't going to be successful.

[00:10:17] Uh, and so this book is really the product of 15 years of thinking

[00:10:21] about how to help my clients, uh, extract what they already know

[00:10:25] about their customers and their market, uh, and be able to fashion

[00:10:29] that into a message, uh, that begins to get effective.

[00:10:33] And I think we can't, uh, we've talked about it in several episodes.

[00:10:40] Um, I've talked, I talk about it with clients all the time that,

[00:10:44] you know, what is it, how are you differentiating is how I use

[00:10:47] it from a sales vernacular, right?

[00:10:49] How are we differentiating ourselves from our competitors?

[00:10:51] What does that sound like?

[00:10:53] What does that look like?

[00:10:54] But when, when they start, when they first go to have those

[00:10:58] conversations with me, it's about features and benefits, right?

[00:11:02] They haven't really thought about what that, what that person is moving

[00:11:06] towards or what they're moving away from, right?

[00:11:08] They don't really truly understand that they're taking things for

[00:11:11] granted and we're as a, as an entrepreneur, we're thinking that

[00:11:15] our marketing person is going to figure all that out.

[00:11:19] And I think some of that's on both parties, right?

[00:11:21] We have to be able to tell them, but the advertiser, the marketing

[00:11:25] people should be able to say, Hey, we can't.

[00:11:27] And that's what you've done with this book.

[00:11:29] We can't do the work we need to do without the data, without the

[00:11:33] information, without what's inside your head.

[00:11:36] So you need to go jam a straw in your ear and suck out all the goodness,

[00:11:39] right?

[00:11:40] And separate the wheat from the chef.

[00:11:42] Yeah.

[00:11:42] And when you talk about clients that are overly obsessed with their

[00:11:45] features and benefits, I think you've really put your finger on the problem.

[00:11:49] Uh, the temptation or the tendency by, you know, the way people have been

[00:11:53] trained in business school or business classes to think about marketing is

[00:11:57] uh, you know, you, you use the features to sell the benefits.

[00:12:01] That's one of the core insights that people take away from that.

[00:12:04] But what they forget is that marketing and sales really takes place.

[00:12:08] The battlefield is the mind of your customer.

[00:12:11] It all takes place in your customer's mind.

[00:12:14] And that's really what that base of that pyramid is address

[00:12:18] is, is designed to address, right?

[00:12:20] It's those fundamental insights.

[00:12:22] And I think what you're pointing to in that question is something

[00:12:25] that I often call the competition paradox, which is that, uh, you know,

[00:12:29] customers either, uh, my clients that I've seen throughout my career, either

[00:12:33] often think too little about their competitors.

[00:12:37] You know, they say, well, I don't have any competition.

[00:12:39] No one does exactly what I do.

[00:12:40] No one has exactly the features and benefits that I offer.

[00:12:43] I have a unique offer, right?

[00:12:45] And then the other side of the coin is that they think too

[00:12:48] much about the competition and everything that they're doing is,

[00:12:52] uh, designed in terms to differentiate themselves from what competitors,

[00:12:57] uh, their competitors are doing.

[00:12:59] Even though their customers may not even be aware of those

[00:13:02] competitors exist and they may not be aggressive with shopping the category,

[00:13:06] but, uh, they're having a conversation that does not align with what's

[00:13:10] happening in their customer's mind.

[00:13:12] I mean, I want to go back to what you said.

[00:13:14] I mean, all of that is, is profound, but the battle is in the mind of

[00:13:19] the, of your, of your customer and your prospect, right?

[00:13:22] Trout and Reese talked about that 30, 40 years ago, right.

[00:13:25] In that the battle for the mind.

[00:13:28] I forget the exact name of their book, but yeah, I think it's, uh,

[00:13:32] Oh, uh, I just think of it as the positioning book because that's really

[00:13:36] kind of the core idea in that book that, uh, and it was revolutionary at

[00:13:41] the time, um, that you're going to succeed at marketing to the extent

[00:13:46] that you position your product or service, uh, inside your customer's

[00:13:50] mind relative to what your competitors are doing.

[00:13:53] Um, and that was very effective when you had means of distribution

[00:14:00] that were, uh, very constrained.

[00:14:03] Uh, so if you think about your, uh, retail store, there were only

[00:14:07] so many different kinds of toothpaste on the shelf, right?

[00:14:10] So you had the toothpaste category, which is the shelf of toothpaste.

[00:14:14] And then you had a few products that were competing for that purchasing dollar.

[00:14:19] And in a world like that, you can actually very accurately position your

[00:14:24] product relative to your competitors.

[00:14:26] Take another, uh, consumer good as an example, uh, laundry detergent

[00:14:31] is a great one, uh, and it's one that Trout and, uh, Reese use, uh,

[00:14:35] in the book, uh, to great effect, right?

[00:14:37] Tide was the color safe, uh, detergent that gets your clothes really clean.

[00:14:44] Right.

[00:14:44] But then, uh, and I'm going to mix up the brand names, but, you know,

[00:14:48] cheer was about, uh, making your colors vibrant and keeping them vibrant.

[00:14:53] Right?

[00:14:53] Those are two different goals that are messaged slightly differently.

[00:14:58] And it turns out that difference in emphasis was enough to build

[00:15:02] billion dollar brands, uh, you know, $2 billion brands in

[00:15:06] the laundry detergent category.

[00:15:08] Hey, thanks for being part of sales and cigars.

[00:15:10] I wanted to share a new project that we just launched.

[00:15:13] I wrote a new book called scale your sales.

[00:15:16] It's written for the CEO.

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[00:15:22] that CEOs make with their sales organization.

[00:15:25] It provides actionable steps that you can take to fix those

[00:15:29] problems in your business today.

[00:15:31] And it might even help you get out of the sales seat yourself.

[00:15:35] So appreciate you listening to sales and cigars.

[00:15:38] You can find this book on Amazon or wherever you buy books.

[00:15:41] Thanks.

[00:15:42] Today it's a, it's a completely different, uh, environment to operate in.

[00:15:46] Right?

[00:15:46] I mean, totally.

[00:15:48] You talked about toothpaste, the toothpaste I use as a kid.

[00:15:51] It's not on the market anymore.

[00:15:53] They don't make gleam.

[00:15:55] Right?

[00:15:55] That was the place that my mom thought was whatever landed in her mind.

[00:16:00] But when we talk about battling in the mind today, it's way more complicated.

[00:16:04] And we don't, I think entrepreneurs need to think about like what's

[00:16:09] going on in their mind.

[00:16:11] How do we, how do we go put a position in their mind and then what have all of

[00:16:15] our options to do that?

[00:16:16] And that's what you're doing in the book.

[00:16:18] And that's what you're doing with this, this triangle, this diagram is,

[00:16:22] is mapping that all out for us to start to rethink, right?

[00:16:26] Because we're not selling laundry detergent, um, for the most

[00:16:30] of the people listening here.

[00:16:31] They're not a, you know, big procter and gamble company.

[00:16:34] We're, we're, you know, smaller mid-sized organizations that have

[00:16:38] a complex B2B product.

[00:16:40] So we don't really, we think we know what's important, but we really need

[00:16:45] to start to analyze that and think about it and do the work to get there

[00:16:49] and talk to professionals in a way that we're, we're using the

[00:16:53] proper tools to get there.

[00:16:55] I'm sorry.

[00:16:55] Yeah.

[00:16:56] So you, I think you're, you put your finger really on the problem

[00:17:00] and that is that positioning theory is, is less and less directly

[00:17:05] applicable today.

[00:17:07] Uh, and yet most advertising agencies, that's still the tool they reach for

[00:17:10] when they try to do marketing strategy.

[00:17:13] Uh, so I think I've told the story before I was working for a time

[00:17:16] with a company that, uh, had spent a quarter of a million dollars

[00:17:20] with one of the top Silicon Valley marketing firms, uh, in

[00:17:23] marketing strategy firms.

[00:17:24] And that quarter of a million dollars got them a positioning

[00:17:27] statement and an elevator pitch.

[00:17:29] And a really compelling pitch deck about why the particular words

[00:17:32] they chose were going to position the product, uh, using this, uh,

[00:17:36] positioning theory called market.

[00:17:39] In the minds of their ideal prospects.

[00:17:41] And the problem was that, uh, it didn't really align with how

[00:17:46] customers were thinking about, uh, the product that they were offering,

[00:17:51] uh, before they had actually experienced it, right?

[00:17:53] They w one of the things that the firm had done is they

[00:17:56] talked to customers, uh, who had been using the product for a long time.

[00:17:59] And then they finally understood what it was about.

[00:18:01] Uh, but when you started messaging at that level, people really didn't

[00:18:04] understand what you did or why you wanted it because you hadn't built a

[00:18:08] bridge between what the customer already understood and what they need

[00:18:11] to know in order to buy the product or service.

[00:18:14] But then the other problem is that in most markets today, there are just

[00:18:18] too much, too many competitors to be able to know which alternatives.

[00:18:23] Your customer is actively considering, uh, if you think about what

[00:18:27] the internet has done, it has made it profitable to sell products that

[00:18:32] are increasing, that are increasingly, uh, to increasingly smaller niches

[00:18:36] because you can ship the product direct to the customer.

[00:18:38] You don't need to have a large enough market to succeed at retail.

[00:18:43] And you can target your messaging with pinpoint precision.

[00:18:46] Uh, so, you know, to take your example of a toothpaste, uh, there

[00:18:51] are toothpastes that use a particular kind of active baking soda for, uh,

[00:18:56] people who have particular health concerns.

[00:18:58] And, uh, those companies can sell millions of dollars at that toothpaste,

[00:19:03] but it never would have succeeded on a retail shelf.

[00:19:06] But as a result of that, um, what I'm convinced we need to do today in

[00:19:12] order to succeed with our marketing is to craft a message that is robust

[00:19:17] to what competitors are saying, but that is compelling on its own.

[00:19:21] That's not just compelling in comparison with what your

[00:19:24] competitors are saying, but that, uh, you know, explains in a trustworthy,

[00:19:29] compelling, uh, engaging manner, the outcome that you deliver to your

[00:19:33] customers, why they want to purchase the product and that creates the

[00:19:37] trust that they need, that you're actually going to deliver the

[00:19:40] outcome you promise.

[00:19:41] If you can do that, you're going to sell a lot of your product or

[00:19:44] service, uh, even if, uh, you're not, um, you know, optimally

[00:19:49] positioned against every, you know, competitor on some

[00:19:52] three-dimensional chessboard.

[00:19:54] Uh, and so I really, I really think that, I mean, that, that point you can

[00:20:00] niche, we can, we can dial into who we're looking for.

[00:20:03] We can sell to that person who's got that one little concern and that's all

[00:20:07] that they really care about.

[00:20:08] And we can, you know, it happens in politics.

[00:20:10] It happens in consumer goods, but in the B2B complex sale world, um,

[00:20:15] what I see is confusion, right?

[00:20:18] We, you know, our, our biggest competitor often is the status quo.

[00:20:23] Yeah.

[00:20:24] It's way safer to do nothing.

[00:20:25] I'm not going to lose my job, um, because we were staying with the people that

[00:20:29] we have, cause we know who they are, right?

[00:20:31] To go do something different is risky.

[00:20:33] Right?

[00:20:33] So if we don't, if we're not crystal clear about what and why and how

[00:20:38] that we're going to deliver something meaningful, we're going to save them

[00:20:42] time, we're going to mitigate their risks, we're going to make them or

[00:20:46] save them money, if we're not crystal clear about that and what that looks

[00:20:49] like, our marketing is basically worthless.

[00:20:54] Right?

[00:20:54] Yeah.

[00:20:54] We're confusing people.

[00:20:56] Totally.

[00:20:57] When I was editing the book, I ended up, uh, removing an extra diagram

[00:21:01] because, uh, I got some feedback from early readers that it was, uh,

[00:21:05] complicating things more than I wanted to, but you can think of your

[00:21:08] message as the intersection of a Venn diagram and that Venn diagram

[00:21:13] is made up of three different parts.

[00:21:15] There's what's in your customer's mind in terms of, uh, what they want,

[00:21:19] what they need and what they believe about the world.

[00:21:22] Uh, that's the battlefield of persuasion, so to speak.

[00:21:26] Uh, but then another part of that is, uh, what's your offering, right?

[00:21:31] Your message has to be true to what you're offering and it has to

[00:21:34] intersect with what the customer wants and needs, uh, and it has to

[00:21:38] be congruent with what they believe about the world, but then that

[00:21:41] last part is what we've been talking about today and that's the competition.

[00:21:44] Now, you know, the competition is also something that's in your

[00:21:47] customer's mind, right?

[00:21:48] It's the, uh, things that they're aware of that are alternatives for

[00:21:52] delivering what they, uh, what they want.

[00:21:55] But so your message, uh, it's kind of like a filter that you would

[00:21:58] apply to your message to just make sure that it's robust relative

[00:22:02] to what your competitors are saying, that you can explain why you're

[00:22:06] different and why those differences matter.

[00:22:09] And, uh, you know, if your message sits at the intersection of those,

[00:22:13] uh, you're going to have something that is pretty compelling regardless

[00:22:17] of whether your customer is actively shopping the category and obsessed

[00:22:21] with your competitors or whether they're just encountering your

[00:22:24] solution for the first time.

[00:22:25] And they don't know the first thing about those competitors.

[00:22:28] But as a business owner, we need to be, uh, aware of and be

[00:22:33] responsible about do we have a bunch of competition that people

[00:22:36] are comparing to us?

[00:22:37] Are we selling something that's commoditized?

[00:22:39] Because if we are, then we need to deal with that.

[00:22:42] But if we're selling something that is better than and truly

[00:22:46] better than right.

[00:22:47] I have a client who sells, um, uh, a product that, uh, extends

[00:22:52] the life of asphalt roads.

[00:22:54] Right.

[00:22:54] And they have tons of competitors that call themselves the same

[00:22:58] thing.

[00:22:59] And, but they do something completely different and they actually

[00:23:02] damage the road.

[00:23:04] So what we're switching with the way we talk about our product

[00:23:07] is we're not selling the product.

[00:23:09] We're helping educate about a high level thing called

[00:23:12] preservation.

[00:23:13] And then we're talking about how we do that.

[00:23:16] And now here's where you get to make the decision, Mr.

[00:23:19] Prospect.

[00:23:20] You get to decide if you want to do it this way or that

[00:23:23] way or that way.

[00:23:25] But here's here are the facts and we can talk about it

[00:23:28] in a very high level, um, uh, manner without just without

[00:23:33] without being rude, without being disrespectful, but like

[00:23:35] we're making you you're getting educated on this.

[00:23:38] And then you decide what's important.

[00:23:41] So it's really an education process initially for this

[00:23:44] client, even though they have competitors that are 30%

[00:23:48] less in price.

[00:23:50] But the value isn't there.

[00:23:52] So we talk about it from a high level there.

[00:23:54] So it, but if we don't understand that as a business

[00:23:57] owner and we don't understand how we're really truly

[00:24:00] positioned and then your marketing doesn't have a shot

[00:24:03] because you could go off in a direction that, you know,

[00:24:07] we're not commoditized when you really are, then your

[00:24:10] marketing message will be completely off.

[00:24:12] If it's something you need to direct it directly,

[00:24:15] a direct address it and sometimes you can

[00:24:17] tangentially address it.

[00:24:19] Yeah, no, exactly.

[00:24:20] You've said I think several important things that I'd

[00:24:22] like to highlight so that listeners don't miss this.

[00:24:26] The first is you you've given a great example of what

[00:24:29] I was talking about where today because of things

[00:24:32] like remarketing and more extensive sales processes

[00:24:35] and the ability to do email sequences and stuff like

[00:24:38] that, you can make a more robust argument for your

[00:24:41] product or service and actually educate your

[00:24:43] customers so that they're prepared to be good clients.

[00:24:46] You know, in the days of retail where that was

[00:24:49] the primary method of distribution, you all you

[00:24:52] had was a slogan, right?

[00:24:53] You know, tied is the thing that gets your clothes

[00:24:55] clean and, and you know, you the whole goal of

[00:24:59] marketing was to boil it down to a catchy slogan.

[00:25:02] Today, you can actually engage customers more

[00:25:05] comprehensively in a way that actually brings them

[00:25:08] up to the point where they can understand a

[00:25:11] much more nuanced sales message like you described.

[00:25:15] But the other thing I'd like to point out is

[00:25:18] that you've put your finger we've spent a lot

[00:25:20] of the time today talking about the side of

[00:25:23] the competition paradox where we're too obsessed

[00:25:24] with competition, which is what I'd say the

[00:25:28] focus on positioning theory today often it does

[00:25:32] it says the start of your marketing strategy is

[00:25:34] understanding your market and your competition.

[00:25:37] Well, that's one part of it, but it's not even

[00:25:39] the most important part these days.

[00:25:41] But the other part of it is thinking too little

[00:25:43] about your competitors.

[00:25:44] And I know from talking with you offline about

[00:25:48] this particular client that that's a problem

[00:25:50] they maybe fell into before they started

[00:25:52] working with you because no other asphalt

[00:25:55] company preserves roads in quite the way

[00:25:57] they do.

[00:25:57] They thought they didn't have any competition.

[00:26:00] And when you another framework that I think

[00:26:03] is helpful is to kind of group your competition

[00:26:05] into three different buckets.

[00:26:06] You know, there's direct competitors who solve

[00:26:09] the problem exactly the way you do right.

[00:26:11] And, you know, so your client would say,

[00:26:14] well, I don't have any direct competitors

[00:26:16] because no one else puts small team back

[00:26:18] in the asphalt.

[00:26:19] Well, yeah, that's true in a sense, except

[00:26:23] that you're forgetting the competition takes

[00:26:25] place in your customers mind.

[00:26:27] And so to the degree that your competitors

[00:26:29] are messaging that they preserve roads and you

[00:26:32] say you preserve roads, those competitors are

[00:26:35] a direct competitor to you in the customer's

[00:26:38] mind by virtue of the messaging they're using.

[00:26:42] Right.

[00:26:43] And the understanding of the market.

[00:26:45] But then, you know, once you understand

[00:26:46] who your direct competitors are, you also

[00:26:48] have to consider your adjacent competitors,

[00:26:50] which are people who deliver who try to

[00:26:53] deliver the same outcome, but they do it

[00:26:55] in a different way.

[00:26:56] So I was doing this with a client yesterday.

[00:26:59] We're in the middle of a strategy process

[00:27:00] with them and they're an asset manager

[00:27:03] financial planning firm.

[00:27:05] And so while, you know, most of their

[00:27:07] big competitors don't do exactly what they

[00:27:09] do, they don't provide the kind of comprehensive

[00:27:11] financial plan and all the kind of bells

[00:27:14] and whistles that they do brokers and

[00:27:16] insurance agents and things like that,

[00:27:20] you know, big wealth management firms

[00:27:22] and robo advisors, they all try to claim

[00:27:25] to grow your assets and take care of your

[00:27:27] money even though they don't do exactly

[00:27:29] what you do.

[00:27:30] And so you have to take into account those

[00:27:33] as possible alternatives that your

[00:27:34] customer is considering and make sure

[00:27:36] your message is robust against that.

[00:27:38] And then finally, you have indirect

[00:27:40] competition, which is, you know, several

[00:27:43] different things.

[00:27:43] Sometimes it's just doing nothing,

[00:27:46] right?

[00:27:46] Or doing it yourself, not seeking help,

[00:27:48] not making a purchase.

[00:27:50] That's one thing.

[00:27:50] But then also, we all face competition in

[00:27:54] whatever we're selling from where else

[00:27:56] the money could be dedicated.

[00:27:58] So if you have a company that's

[00:28:00] considering whether to invest in a CRM

[00:28:02] system and they're considering whether

[00:28:04] to invest in machinery to upgrade their

[00:28:06] manufacturing line, at the end of the

[00:28:08] day, budgets are constrained.

[00:28:10] And so money that goes to upgrade the

[00:28:12] manufacturing facility might mean that

[00:28:14] you can't afford the CRM system.

[00:28:16] And so that's also a different kind

[00:28:18] of competition.

[00:28:18] And so you have to keep that in mind

[00:28:21] and make sure that you're messaging

[00:28:22] the importance of what you are

[00:28:24] addressing for the customers so that

[00:28:26] they prioritize that over everything

[00:28:29] else they could be spending their

[00:28:30] money on.

[00:28:31] I mean, in that one piece right

[00:28:33] there, we could spend 30 minutes

[00:28:35] talking about, you know, is this

[00:28:37] funded?

[00:28:38] Right?

[00:28:38] Is this project that we're talking

[00:28:41] about funded?

[00:28:42] And, you know, that's where sales,

[00:28:45] you know, there's a nuance with sales

[00:28:47] and marketing, right?

[00:28:48] As soon as you said financial advisors,

[00:28:50] financial management, right?

[00:28:51] Something pops into my head, right?

[00:28:53] That I have an image.

[00:28:55] So that message goes to my brain and

[00:28:59] then I have to be convinced that

[00:29:00] this is something different.

[00:29:03] And if we, if we're as business

[00:29:05] owners, if we're not honest

[00:29:07] with ourselves and honest with our

[00:29:09] marketing people about what that

[00:29:11] landscape really looks like,

[00:29:13] we're just going to be pissing away

[00:29:15] money in marketing and it's not

[00:29:17] going to work and we're going to get

[00:29:18] frustrated and we're going to keep

[00:29:19] spinning the wheel around.

[00:29:22] If we just stop and go back,

[00:29:24] read your book, understand those

[00:29:27] underlying fundamental steps, the

[00:29:29] blocking and tackling as you've said

[00:29:31] before, that then we have a real

[00:29:33] shot of for that battle in the

[00:29:36] mind of our prospect.

[00:29:38] Yeah, I think one of the reasons

[00:29:39] the strategy process that's in this

[00:29:41] book and that I do with clients is

[00:29:43] so successful is because we start at

[00:29:45] that insight level.

[00:29:47] We make sure that we're covering

[00:29:49] the entire playing field to start

[00:29:51] with. And what that enables us

[00:29:54] to do is try to avoid that

[00:29:56] competition paradox, right?

[00:29:58] We don't ignore the competition.

[00:30:00] We make sure we have an accurate

[00:30:02] understanding of it and that

[00:30:04] we're taking into account who

[00:30:06] our competitors are and what

[00:30:07] they're saying.

[00:30:08] But we're not on the other hand,

[00:30:10] we're not obsessed with it.

[00:30:11] We're not starting there and

[00:30:12] focusing on it the way that

[00:30:13] positioning theory does.

[00:30:15] And the result is that we can

[00:30:17] develop a well-balanced message

[00:30:19] that works from first principles,

[00:30:22] beginning with the customer

[00:30:23] psychology and building out from

[00:30:24] there to create a message that

[00:30:26] attracts attention and persuades

[00:30:28] them to buy and then translate

[00:30:30] that finally into the marketing

[00:30:32] assets.

[00:30:33] And I'm convinced that if you're

[00:30:37] having marketing problems, the

[00:30:39] reason is usually the case that

[00:30:41] you've started with the wrong end

[00:30:42] around.

[00:30:43] You know, it is so often to work

[00:30:46] with your marketers from a

[00:30:48] starting point of I need a

[00:30:49] website or I need to run some

[00:30:51] ads that do this, that and the

[00:30:53] other thing.

[00:30:54] And you treat it as a creative

[00:30:56] exercise because that's what

[00:30:57] most marketers like to do.

[00:30:58] They're creatives.

[00:30:59] They like to write and they

[00:31:01] like to design and they like

[00:31:02] to create videos.

[00:31:03] And they're all about the

[00:31:04] creativity of the asset but

[00:31:06] they forget that the engine

[00:31:08] that drives the results, that

[00:31:10] attracts attention and creates

[00:31:12] conversions is all what's

[00:31:13] happening inside of your

[00:31:14] customer's mind.

[00:31:15] And that begins with

[00:31:17] understanding the real state

[00:31:19] of play and making sure that

[00:31:21] you've got those differentiated

[00:31:23] insights as a starting point.

[00:31:25] When you have that and you

[00:31:26] can start to formulate your

[00:31:28] message the way that I

[00:31:29] describe in the book, your

[00:31:31] marketers are going to be many

[00:31:33] times more effective than they

[00:31:34] are today because they're

[00:31:37] actually going to be starting

[00:31:38] with the raw ingredients that

[00:31:40] produce the outcomes in the

[00:31:41] first place.

[00:31:43] And I think that's a great

[00:31:46] place to land.

[00:31:46] But so my advice to the

[00:31:51] business owners that are out

[00:31:52] there, it's the same as

[00:31:54] by the book.

[00:31:56] Read through this.

[00:31:57] Understand these principles.

[00:31:58] And if you want to go fast

[00:32:00] and you want to fix this,

[00:32:01] truly want to fix this quickly,

[00:32:03] call Matt and get a

[00:32:06] conversation going where you

[00:32:08] go through his facilitation

[00:32:09] process to get your

[00:32:11] marketing fundamentally headed

[00:32:14] in the right direction that's

[00:32:15] going to give all of those

[00:32:16] other creative people the

[00:32:18] right tools to work with.

[00:32:19] Give them the right message,

[00:32:21] the right targets, the right

[00:32:22] words to get to where you

[00:32:24] want to go.

[00:32:25] And then I think the other

[00:32:26] thing, I'll just tease this

[00:32:28] idea is that we're developing

[00:32:31] something that we take that

[00:32:32] same style of getting your

[00:32:35] marketing right and taking that

[00:32:37] to the sales team, be able to

[00:32:39] give them the things that they

[00:32:41] need to address that.

[00:32:43] And one of the things that I

[00:32:44] mean, I'll just land it here.

[00:32:46] The message that we were

[00:32:49] talking about with my client,

[00:32:51] with the asphalt, we've got

[00:32:53] them to a point where I sat

[00:32:54] in a meeting the other day

[00:32:55] and the guy's like, yeah,

[00:32:57] but we're just looking at

[00:32:59] this product over here, the

[00:33:00] competitor, they do the same

[00:33:02] thing.

[00:33:03] They increase viscosity.

[00:33:05] Like they do.

[00:33:07] And the guy looked at me

[00:33:08] because you agree.

[00:33:09] I'm like, they do.

[00:33:10] But how?

[00:33:11] How do they do it?

[00:33:13] And he's like, what do you mean?

[00:33:14] I'm like, how are they changing

[00:33:17] that viscosity?

[00:33:18] Right.

[00:33:18] It's a technical thing.

[00:33:19] But how is it important?

[00:33:20] And I was able to ask him

[00:33:21] enough questions for him

[00:33:22] to realize I don't want that.

[00:33:24] Right.

[00:33:25] Oh, oh, OK.

[00:33:27] Well, then how is that really

[00:33:30] apples to apples here?

[00:33:31] That's apples and soybeans,

[00:33:33] actually.

[00:33:35] It's not the same thing.

[00:33:36] But if we don't have that

[00:33:37] connection to our marketing

[00:33:38] and we don't draw that threat

[00:33:40] all the way through,

[00:33:42] we still can lose.

[00:33:43] Right.

[00:33:43] Yeah, totally.

[00:33:44] I mean, from the sales

[00:33:45] team.

[00:33:45] So often the answer comes

[00:33:47] only once you see the entire

[00:33:50] chessboard, so to speak.

[00:33:52] And that's really what

[00:33:53] the process, the facilitation

[00:33:54] process you talked about is

[00:33:55] designed to do is to expose

[00:33:59] all the moving pieces in a way

[00:34:01] that you can, with really

[00:34:03] targeted precision, figure out

[00:34:05] exactly what you need to say

[00:34:06] at exactly the right time

[00:34:08] to overcome your customer's

[00:34:10] objections, get them interested

[00:34:12] and ultimately get them off

[00:34:13] the fence and ready to buy.

[00:34:15] And what you just described,

[00:34:19] we've been talking about

[00:34:19] this client offline for,

[00:34:21] I think, almost a year now

[00:34:23] is you've had to work with

[00:34:26] them step by step

[00:34:26] through that process.

[00:34:29] But if we had been able

[00:34:31] to bring that client

[00:34:32] through the kind of

[00:34:33] facilitation that you

[00:34:34] described that I offer

[00:34:36] as a starting point to my clients,

[00:34:38] you probably would have been

[00:34:39] at that point 12 months ago.

[00:34:40] Oh, yeah.

[00:34:41] I just have to get them

[00:34:42] in a headlock and get them

[00:34:43] in the room and get them

[00:34:45] to answer the questions.

[00:34:45] But that's a story for another day.

[00:34:48] Yeah, totally.

[00:34:49] But I mean, you've been

[00:34:50] through the facilitation

[00:34:51] process for yourself.

[00:34:52] And I think you can attest

[00:34:53] that once you actually get there,

[00:34:55] it's not that painful.

[00:34:56] It goes really fast.

[00:34:57] And it's actually quite a bit of fun.

[00:35:00] But it makes us as a business owner,

[00:35:02] once you go through it,

[00:35:03] it makes us be like,

[00:35:04] holy shit, I didn't realize

[00:35:06] that's really what I need to be saying

[00:35:08] because I thought it was

[00:35:10] what I was saying.

[00:35:11] Right.

[00:35:12] It's that what's the term

[00:35:13] you use about knowledge?

[00:35:16] The the knowledge.

[00:35:17] Yeah.

[00:35:18] Yeah.

[00:35:19] And we have it as business owners.

[00:35:21] So go buy the damn book

[00:35:23] and then call Matt

[00:35:24] and get this done

[00:35:25] and get it right.

[00:35:26] I have I have Matt on here

[00:35:28] on a regular basis

[00:35:29] because I think this is going to change

[00:35:32] a small business,

[00:35:33] a mid-sized business.

[00:35:34] It's going to get you

[00:35:35] to where you want to go faster.

[00:35:37] Yeah, totally.

[00:35:38] But, you know,

[00:35:40] one of the things

[00:35:41] that is really gratifying to me

[00:35:43] about these tools is

[00:35:45] I've had people

[00:35:46] in Fortune 500 companies

[00:35:48] find this really eye opening.

[00:35:50] Often the problems

[00:35:51] are really simple there too,

[00:35:53] but they get lost

[00:35:54] and all the complexity

[00:35:55] all the way down to startups.

[00:35:58] This really is just

[00:36:00] a very small set of tools

[00:36:02] that you can use to

[00:36:03] think about what your message needs to be

[00:36:05] and then to identify

[00:36:07] what your marketing needs to look like

[00:36:08] as a result of that.

[00:36:10] And so, you know,

[00:36:10] I just encourage you to,

[00:36:12] you know, if you haven't started already,

[00:36:14] get started today

[00:36:15] because once you start

[00:36:17] thinking about your business in this way,

[00:36:19] you're going to have

[00:36:21] a whole new perspective

[00:36:22] on what you need to be doing

[00:36:24] and how you can grow.

[00:36:26] And if somebody's listened to

[00:36:28] the last episode,

[00:36:30] that was a call to action

[00:36:31] asking to make an offer for you

[00:36:32] to actually go do something.

[00:36:34] So go do something folks.

[00:36:37] Knowledge is useful,

[00:36:38] but it's entertaining,

[00:36:40] but it's not useful until you apply it.

[00:36:42] Absolutely.

[00:36:42] You got to take the action.

[00:36:44] Thanks, man.

[00:36:45] Appreciate it.

[00:36:45] Thanks a lot, Walter.

[00:36:46] Talk to you soon.

[00:36:47] Thanks for being part of another

[00:36:48] fun episode of Sales and Cigars.

[00:36:50] Let me ask you a question.

[00:36:52] Are you tired of struggling

[00:36:54] to hire sales talent

[00:36:55] that's going to move the needle

[00:36:56] for your company?

[00:36:58] Well, maybe you should attend

[00:37:00] my sales hiring secrets program

[00:37:02] and discover the number one mistake

[00:37:04] that business owners are making

[00:37:06] with hiring sales talent

[00:37:07] in their organization.

[00:37:08] The details are in the show notes.

[00:37:10] Click on the page.

[00:37:11] It gives you all the details.

[00:37:13] It gives you everything you need to know

[00:37:14] to solve the problem

[00:37:16] of sales talent on your teeth.

[00:37:18] Thanks.