Sales and Cigars | Nate Tutas | NLP in the Sales Toolbox | Episode 174

[00:00:00] Hey everyone, Walter Crosby of Helix Sales Development, your host of Sales and Cigars.

[00:00:04] Today my guest is my buddy Nate Tudis.

[00:00:07] You've listened to this program at all in the last year, you've heard him a few times.

[00:00:11] Today we're going to talk a little bit about NeuroLinguistics programming and how it helps salespeople build rapport and handle resistance.

[00:00:20] So we don't go deep into NLP but we talk a little bit about the things that we can observe,

[00:00:25] the things that help us do sales and build rapport and deal with resistance a little bit more effectively and go a little faster.

[00:00:32] We're not looking here to become an NLP master but we talk a little bit about why it might be helpful for you to get to the next level.

[00:00:39] So go grab a cigar, grab a cocktail, strap in for another exciting episode of Sales and Cigars.

[00:00:46] So Nate, welcome back to Sales and Cigars. It's been a minute.

[00:01:11] It has been a minute, such a minute that you've got your new book out and you just hit Amazon, what is it, fastest seller?

[00:01:22] It's a new release, hot bestseller.

[00:01:26] New release, hot bestseller.

[00:01:28] I didn't pay you to say that but I appreciate it, thank you.

[00:01:31] Congrats.

[00:01:33] By the time this airs, we should have, the book should be fully launched and we should have bestseller status in a couple of categories.

[00:01:43] So thank you.

[00:01:44] It's a scale your sales and it's available wherever you get books.

[00:01:51] Except Barnes & Noble probably.

[00:01:55] Well, Barnes & Noble is fine if you order it online but if you need to go to their brick and mortar bookstore and pick up a book, best of luck.

[00:02:03] Unless you're looking for a romance novel.

[00:02:06] Luckily this will air later. I probably will get a bad note from Barnes & Noble.

[00:02:12] So let's jump into the NLP and let's put it in the context of neuro linguistics programs, put it in the context of sales.

[00:02:23] And like the beginning part of sales, whether you're doing Sandler, baseline selling, Challenger, there's some element of building some rapport, building some trust, getting something going to get some commonality with the person that you're setting up to relate as a human.

[00:02:42] And I think one of the things that you and I have talked a lot about offline is NLP's ability to help humans, not just sales people but anybody, listen better and put, you know, just be able to create that trust in the rapport.

[00:03:03] So I mean, I think there's two things I want to cover and I'll let you kind of drive us here but the rapport and reducing resistance is something we talk a little bit about in baseline selling.

[00:03:13] So let's start with rapport. How does NLP get us there quicker?

[00:03:19] Well, it's basically understanding the nuance of language and both verbal communication and nonverbal communication.

[00:03:27] So there are linguistic programming for people that don't know what specifically it is.

[00:03:33] If you think about just the three words, the neuro or the neurology in our brains, the linguistics, the words that we actually use, it's basically about how the words we use connect to the neurology and then can develop programming within human behavior.

[00:03:47] Right? So NLP is...

[00:03:51] Our brain is basically a little computer and we're helping it put a better program together and fix all the spinning around and waste of time.

[00:04:02] Yes, and I wouldn't even say it's a little computer. It's probably the greatest supercomputer on the planet that no one's even figured out how it actually works.

[00:04:11] Yeah, I think that's true. I think that's demonstrated on a regular basis by people. They don't really know.

[00:04:17] Well, there's no program. There's no manual that comes with it to tell us how it operates. We have to kind of figure it out.

[00:04:22] And that's where kind of NLP comes into play is we figured out how the brain actually functions and how you can use the language that you use both internally for yourself and then also externally that you speak to process the world around you and then program.

[00:04:37] That's a big distinction we could probably spend a couple of times talking about the conversations we have outward, what we're having with other people.

[00:04:46] But the ones that are the most scary are the ones we have with ourselves.

[00:04:49] Oh, many times, many times. Absolutely.

[00:04:52] All right, so we got a it's helping us with language. It's helping us understand words make matter and we need to be able to neuro-linguistic programs can help us connect with somebody by it's not just matching.

[00:05:06] Right. It's understanding. I'm going to I'm going to stop guessing and you tell me.

[00:05:12] Well, it's a combination of all of it really because you do have what's known as polarity responders, which are people that no matter what I say you're going to do something different just because that is your pattern.

[00:05:25] You prefer to respond polarity wise if I say, you know, clean the kitchen, you're intentionally going to go in and make it even more filthy and dirty just because you're polarity responder.

[00:05:36] It's just the way that my father.

[00:05:39] Not necessarily, but I've met many people like that.

[00:05:42] But that's that's an example of if I know that someone's a polarity responder and I'm trying to build rapport with them all intentionally.

[00:05:49] Some would refer to it as reverse psychology, but I'll intentionally apply reverse psychology type techniques because I know if I'm trying to get them to do a certain behavior, that's how I would get them to do it because they respond with polarity from that.

[00:06:02] But you're not going to directly say like, you know, you don't want them to ride the tractor.

[00:06:07] You're not going to say don't you're going to say go ride the tractor.

[00:06:10] You're going to do something that's a little bit different than that.

[00:06:12] You're not going to just give them the opposite direction.

[00:06:15] Correct. Correct. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:17] I mean, if to use the riding the tractor example, if we're trying to get to a destination and for some reason, the tractor is our mode of transportation.

[00:06:26] If I want them to ride the tractor, I'm probably going to go, you know, we probably should either walk, get a bike or something else.

[00:06:32] But a tractor is probably not really going to get us to where we need to be.

[00:06:35] And they're going to go, oh yeah, watch this and go hop on the tractor and do it.

[00:06:38] Right. So it's understanding what motivates the individual and then helping to guide them in that decision process.

[00:06:46] So it's first it's gone.

[00:06:48] We go back to understanding and we can use NLP to understand our prospects because we're going to keep this in the sales context, but it's going to help us understand and respond in a way that makes that person feel comfortable.

[00:07:07] Am I headed down the right path?

[00:07:10] If comfort is what we want.

[00:07:12] Sometimes we don't always want want the person to feel comfortable.

[00:07:15] But if we're building rapport, yes and no.

[00:07:21] I mean, a lot of people think that rapport is just us being buddy buddy and friends and stuff like that.

[00:07:26] But you can have rapport with someone that there's a mutual level of respect because you're both a player, so to speak.

[00:07:34] And you understand that there's a give and take back and forth between how you how you manage that particular conversation.

[00:07:40] So, you know, some people, especially in a sales context.

[00:07:44] I know a lot of salespeople that think in order to build rapport, they have to go in and be submissive to the other person that they're communicating with.

[00:07:51] And that isn't necessarily the case because you may lose respect from that person where they may be nice to you.

[00:07:57] They may be cordial to you, but they're never going to buy anything from you because they don't respect you.

[00:08:01] Because you've gone in as a lesser than you don't feel that you're in the same same level.

[00:08:08] But I've also seen salespeople go in and think they have to be smarter than and they have to demonstrate how much knowledge they have.

[00:08:15] And that puts people off, too.

[00:08:17] Yes. Yeah.

[00:08:19] And that's we talked about this before we were starting the podcast.

[00:08:23] But one of the things that we say is the greatest skill in NLP that anybody can learn is actually calibration.

[00:08:30] And so it's your ability to walk into a room, to start a conversation, to get on a Zoom and immediately start calibrating to the other person you're communicating with.

[00:08:39] If it's a group, it's calibrating to the entire group to be able to sense they're either tracking with me or I've lost them.

[00:08:46] And I need to get them back from if you're doing public speaking and things like that.

[00:08:50] If you're talking a direct sales conversation, then it's immediately starting to calibrate to that other person to understand how they're processing the world around them and starting to get into some of the NLP techniques and things like that.

[00:09:03] So let's think about it.

[00:09:06] Let's think about it. I'll give you a situation and maybe we talk through how somebody with your skill set because you're using use the right term master practitioner,

[00:09:20] master business practitioner, and then also a licensed trainer and a trainer coach as well.

[00:09:26] So you know your shit.

[00:09:28] Enough. Enough. I know enough to be dangerous.

[00:09:34] So if we got a salesperson and they're sitting in their car in the parking lot, they're 10 minutes early.

[00:09:42] So they're off to a good start and they're doing this little self-talk thing about what they want to do, what they want to accomplish in this.

[00:09:50] Like what's a home run for this meeting? What's a base hit for this meeting? What's a double?

[00:09:54] Like how do we define what we're looking for? How do we define success?

[00:09:58] So doing that little pre-call plan and then they got to walk into the room and they sit down in the conference room and they're waiting for the CEO,

[00:10:09] let's say, to walk into the room. And that's their prospect.

[00:10:13] So you're at somewhat of a disadvantage because it's not your home turf.

[00:10:20] You don't even get to see the CEO's office because you're in a sterile conference room or there might be some things on the conference room walls that you can dig into.

[00:10:32] So that's the scenario.

[00:10:35] So if we talk about what these tools would help that salesperson, kind of help walk through what that first looks like when somebody's trying to shake hands, have that first initial calibration.

[00:10:52] Well, it's a little bit everything and it all processes very quickly.

[00:10:57] And some of it is going to be based on the salesperson's prior experience.

[00:11:02] So one thing that we talk about from an NLP perspective is we all have different filters that we process the world through.

[00:11:09] In NLP, one of the things that we try to do is not be assumptive though.

[00:11:12] So for instance, if the CEO walks in and he's walking at a very fast pace, walks in, shakes my hand real quick, sits down and says, all right, what do you got to tell me?

[00:11:21] Or if he walks in, shakes my hand and sits back and crosses his arms and says, OK, what are you here for? What are we talking about? Blah, blah, blah.

[00:11:30] There's some people out there that will tell you, oh, their arms are crossed. That means they're closed off.

[00:11:36] It means that they're not open to new information. They're not open to new ideas, things like that.

[00:11:40] And NLP will tell you they could be cold. That could be their preferred mode of just sitting.

[00:11:48] They could have a shoulder problem and they're actually trying to support their arm a little bit because they hurt their arm golfing the weight.

[00:11:55] They could feel a little chubby that day and they're trying to hide the chubbiness by putting their things together.

[00:11:59] Yeah. So so the first thing is we don't necessarily make assumptions, but we're going to we're going to calibrate to that initial state that the person's in.

[00:12:07] And then we're going to start asking questions and seeing does that state change? Are they excited? Are they more docile in character?

[00:12:16] What is it? And we're going to start matching and mirroring that behavior a little bit.

[00:12:19] If they're more excited and speak fast, we're going to start speeding up our pattern of speech so that we're speaking at a similar not necessarily the exact same speed,

[00:12:28] not necessarily the exact same rate, but we're going to speed up or slow down based on who we're communicating with.

[00:12:33] I used to do that. I can remember this is pre NLP. I just kind of did it naturally.

[00:12:39] But I used to work all across the country. So I'd be in the north up in New York where they speak nice and fast.

[00:12:45] And then literally that same day I could be on a plane and be down in southern Alabama talking to someone that just talk so slow you want to you know,

[00:12:54] goddamn slow. Yeah. Yeah. And I would slow my rate of speech down and I would start communicating with them.

[00:12:59] And we had other guys on the team. I can remember that were like, I can't understand that person to save my life or that person to noise the crap out of me.

[00:13:07] I can't communicate with them like someone else go deal with them. But it is it is a it is a very general sense.

[00:13:14] Even outside of NLP, we need to bring whatever they are who they are. We need to adjust to them.

[00:13:20] It's our it's our job as a salesperson to adjust. NLP is just given us more tools to do that.

[00:13:27] Correct. Okay. So that I mean, I think I think we're tracking along along this line is something that's going to help us speed that process up sometimes.

[00:13:36] Mm hmm. Yeah, definitely. It'll most of the time it'll speed the process up and it also gives you the ability to check that you actually have report or not.

[00:13:45] So for instance, if I think I'm speaking at the same rate of speech as someone else and I want to check, I might change my rate of speech to see if they follow me.

[00:13:54] So it's referred to it's not just pacing, but it's pacing and then leading.

[00:13:58] So I may pace the person for a little while and then I may lead them in a slightly different direction just to check to see if I actually have report.

[00:14:06] Lead them in a different direction with other other than pacing them.

[00:14:11] Yes. So it can I mean, there's multiple different ways that you can actually do a check.

[00:14:16] You can literally scratch your ear and if the other if you're in true rapport with someone, they'll feel an itch.

[00:14:23] We're literally connected neurologically that way that they'll all of a sudden feel an itch and they'll they may not scratch their ear the exact same way that you did, but they may brush their chin or rub their nose or whatever.

[00:14:33] It's a natural intuitive thing that happens between between humans.

[00:14:37] That's a real allergy that they're actually called mirror neurons that that fire off in people.

[00:14:42] Hey, thanks for being part of sales and cigars.

[00:14:45] I wanted to share a new project that we just launched.

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[00:14:51] It's written for the CEO.

[00:14:53] It's a short powerful book that explains the seven critical mistakes that CEOs make with their sales organization.

[00:14:59] It provides actionable steps that you can take to fix those problems in your business today.

[00:15:05] And it might even help you get out of the sales seat yourself.

[00:15:08] So appreciate you listening to sales and cigars.

[00:15:12] You can find this book on Amazon or wherever you buy books.

[00:15:15] Thanks. That happens when somebody is in sync when there is some rapport where that's being built.

[00:15:22] It wouldn't happen if they weren't lining up.

[00:15:26] Lining up.

[00:15:27] Correct.

[00:15:28] Okay.

[00:15:29] Correct.

[00:15:30] You'd have to have some level of rapport for that to actually take place.

[00:15:34] But if somebody if you did that, if you did one of these things or whatever, right?

[00:15:39] You're and they didn't do that.

[00:15:41] That doesn't necessarily mean you're not in.

[00:15:45] Rapport.

[00:15:47] Is there a way to not necessarily I might do a different check.

[00:15:51] So another way that you establish rapport with people isn't only matching their rate of speech, but it's actually matching the rate of breathing.

[00:15:58] That's actually one of the one of the most effective ways to get into rapport with someone else as you breathe at the same rate that they do.

[00:16:07] And when when you do that, you can actually just pause and then keep going.

[00:16:13] And they will you'll see them.

[00:16:15] They'll actually hold their breath for a moment and then release it.

[00:16:19] It actually happens.

[00:16:20] You'll experience it if you've ever watched a movie that does one of those kind of cliffhanger moments and everybody seems to be on the edge of their seat.

[00:16:27] It's because you're in such for lack of better terminology, we'll call it rapport with the film.

[00:16:33] You're in it.

[00:16:34] You're in it.

[00:16:35] So you experience that same like oh, oh, and then you experience that the same thing happens with humans when we start breathing at the same rate.

[00:16:43] Interesting.

[00:16:44] All right.

[00:16:45] Is there any other way to check?

[00:16:49] I mean, we don't have to do like 30 of these, but curious.

[00:16:54] Another way that you can check is we all speak in one of the five modes of communication.

[00:17:01] So we all speak in one of the five senses visual terminology, auditory terminology, kinesthetic, olfactory or gustatory olfactory and gustatory, smell and taste.

[00:17:13] So if somebody is visual and audio like we understand they're hearing things, they've seen things, if they're aesthetic, they're feeling things.

[00:17:23] How the hell does smell come into the conversation?

[00:17:26] And have you ever heard the phrase that smells fishy?

[00:17:30] Which can be tied to apparently Riverside has heard that one.

[00:17:36] I just got the random thumbs up.

[00:17:38] Timing was great.

[00:17:39] I'm in rapport with Riverside.

[00:17:41] Riverside is locked in.

[00:17:43] That's funny.

[00:17:44] The fifth one.

[00:17:50] Sorry.

[00:17:51] I found that funny.

[00:17:52] Gustatory.

[00:17:53] So it's the taste.

[00:17:55] And in the sales context, what the hell would be?

[00:17:59] Does this taste good?

[00:18:01] No.

[00:18:02] Well, I would say what's the there's actually like a common phrase that the taste of success.

[00:18:11] Okay, I see what you're saying.

[00:18:13] So typically the we typically say it's VAC language, VAK, visual auditory kinesthetic because most people aren't going to speak in olfactory or gustatory.

[00:18:23] You're going to hear that randomly.

[00:18:26] And then in business a lot, you'll hear what's known as digital, which is there's no there's no sense that's actually applied to it, which actually is one of the things that we hear.

[00:18:38] Which is actually applied to it, which actually is one of the things that if you want your language to be more impactful, you take it out of that digital realm and you get it into one of the sensory modes of communication.

[00:18:49] So is that is it a generational thing?

[00:18:54] Is there is there any NLP tricks for boomers talking to a Gen X or or millennial?

[00:19:04] Kind of in a way we refer to it as parrot phrasing.

[00:19:08] So sometimes you'll hear that you should paraphrase what someone says they say something and then you should rephrase it in a way and say, you know, I think what I heard you say was blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and change it slightly.

[00:19:20] We actually say you should just parrot it back to them because one of the things that I say when I do NLP trainings with people a lot is that everybody has their own personal dictionary.

[00:19:30] So when I say we want our sales numbers to grow and I leave it vague like that, I grow to mean might mean 10%.

[00:19:39] It might mean 50%.

[00:19:40] It might mean 100% grow to you.

[00:19:43] I mean, I've analyzed this business.

[00:19:45] I know that you could be doing 200% more than what you're doing right now.

[00:19:48] So when you say grow, I think we're talking 200%.

[00:19:52] When I say grow, I may be thinking that I want to grow to that point over a 12 month period of time.

[00:19:58] And you may be thinking we can do that in six.

[00:20:01] So that one word alone needs to be defined and taken out of that so that I know what that word actually means for that person.

[00:20:10] And that in and of itself, if I say if you say, you know, we want to grow the business and I go, oh, so you want to increase revenue?

[00:20:19] No, I want to grow people.

[00:20:23] Right. You may go, no, that's not what I said.

[00:20:26] So we want to we want to parrot phrase.

[00:20:29] But they can take you out of rapport, right?

[00:20:31] And create resistance.

[00:20:32] Absolutely.

[00:20:34] So we need to be so that's why you don't paraphrase.

[00:20:39] That's why you give back or you ask a more clarifying question.

[00:20:44] Correct. So I may I may say, you know what?

[00:20:46] That's great, Walter.

[00:20:47] So when you say grow, you want to grow the business.

[00:20:50] What does grow mean specifically for you?

[00:20:52] Which I mean, that's that's NLP.

[00:20:55] But that's also like good consultative clarifying question.

[00:20:59] Right.

[00:21:00] So there's there's a there's a there's a lot of commonality with somebody being and I'm moving my hands around here and I know that means something.

[00:21:09] But it's there's there's commonality with the language and the outcomes and what we're trying to accomplish.

[00:21:18] And I think what the toolbox of NLP gives us some some advantage.

[00:21:23] Yes.

[00:21:25] So a leg up, if you will.

[00:21:27] Yeah, because another way that people refer to NLP is it's the study of excellence.

[00:21:32] And so.

[00:21:35] NLP has a lot of things that we've developed our own technology around, but we've also taken and and I say we Dr.

[00:21:42] Bannister and John Grinder were the two that developed NLP.

[00:21:46] I was going to say you're going to stop there, dude.

[00:21:51] When that technology was was developed, what they did was they looked at the best in the business.

[00:21:57] So they looked at the best in the business at building rapport.

[00:22:00] They looked at the best salespeople and they said, what is it that these people are doing differently that other people aren't necessarily doing?

[00:22:06] And so sometimes it wasn't necessarily a major difference.

[00:22:09] It was the sequencing of things.

[00:22:11] It was that they were parrot phrasing back to the person and the other person was paraphrasing.

[00:22:16] It was that one person was changing the language.

[00:22:18] The other person was going deeper.

[00:22:20] Right.

[00:22:21] So it's understanding those things and then putting the nuance behind it.

[00:22:24] So we figure out what actually creates the best result.

[00:22:28] Because sales in and of itself is a you know, John Russo talks about it's a slight edge business.

[00:22:36] Right.

[00:22:37] It's just that one little thing that can that can take you over the top or that can win it.

[00:22:44] I was I was listening to somebody the other day.

[00:22:46] They were they were responding to a UPS RFP and there were they the guy the guy won and he got a chance to talk to one of the people.

[00:22:59] And it's like, you know, how many people were in this and how did we get there?

[00:23:03] And it's a longer story.

[00:23:04] But there were three and then immediately got that knocked down to two.

[00:23:09] The third up the third company that was pitching this rather large deal.

[00:23:16] They threw out their envelope without even looking inside it because they sent a FedEx package to UPS.

[00:23:27] Right. And somebody didn't do that on purpose.

[00:23:30] Somebody didn't do that intentionally, but somebody didn't maybe think about that one little thing.

[00:23:39] So a slight edge sales is slighted business.

[00:23:42] NLP is going to give give us a an ability to build rapport.

[00:23:46] So let's talk a little bit about how we can maybe fight through some resistance.

[00:23:52] Is that calibration component?

[00:23:54] Is that going to help us there at the same thing?

[00:23:56] Are they kind of parallel to each other?

[00:23:58] Yes, absolutely.

[00:24:00] Because the thing is, if you start your calibration right at the very beginning

[00:24:05] and you start calibrating, you start matching and mirroring the other person and pacing and leading and applying those those basic basic skills.

[00:24:13] I mean, the thing is, those skills are it's almost I would I would compare it to like dribbling a basketball as an example.

[00:24:23] Dribbling a basketball is so simple that most kids when they get halfway decent at being able to dribble, they want to stop practicing.

[00:24:31] They want to stop drilling and they want to say I'm good enough.

[00:24:34] But if you look at the pros and you go to an NBA game and you watch some of these guys warm up and they're dribbling,

[00:24:39] they're dribbling at a level that blows fundamentals out of the water.

[00:24:43] They're able to dribble where the ball barely even gets half an inch off the off the deck and it's already hit.

[00:24:51] It's part of their warm up.

[00:24:53] They go through a routine.

[00:24:56] And that's that's the basics.

[00:25:00] Kobe used to talk about how he would literally shoot.

[00:25:03] I think it was a thousand shots a day.

[00:25:05] He would get done with a game and it didn't matter what time it was.

[00:25:08] He went back in the gym and he shot another hundred shots.

[00:25:11] Jordan spoke about a very similar process where it was just they they practice the fundamentals over and over and over and over again to the point that when they were in the game,

[00:25:21] it was second nature.

[00:25:22] They didn't have to think about it.

[00:25:24] And a lot of salespeople are like, oh yeah, rapport.

[00:25:26] I know how to do that.

[00:25:27] I shake the guy's hand and make sure I look him in the eye.

[00:25:30] I smile, you know, make some comment about something that's on their desk or a picture on their desk for their kids or whatever.

[00:25:36] And cool.

[00:25:37] We're in report.

[00:25:38] Well, when you're calibrating, you start matching language patterns.

[00:25:43] Right. So you start if they're speaking in visual terminology and they're talking about images and things like that, you speak in images and use whether whether you prefer to speak an auditory or kinesthetic or whatever.

[00:25:54] You match the way that they're speaking because if that's their preferred mode of communication and their brain is processing and images and I start speaking an auditory language.

[00:26:05] Well, now their brain I just created resistance because their brain has to start ping firing neurons across the brain to figure out.

[00:26:14] Well, do I even know what they're talking about?

[00:26:16] Can I connect it?

[00:26:17] You know, all those different kinds of things where if I stay in that lane, we don't go outside it.

[00:26:25] And all those things happen like I don't know milliseconds is probably not even fast enough, but those things happen quickly.

[00:26:34] And the one thing that I take away from this conversation and other conversations that we've had is you're focusing.

[00:26:46] You got to be really good at knowing your product and you got to be really good at understanding what you do.

[00:26:53] And you're watching that other person, right?

[00:26:56] And you're paying attention.

[00:26:58] And I was trained 30 years ago to be whoever I needed to be for that prospect.

[00:27:07] And we didn't think about it in the terms of pacing and calibration.

[00:27:11] But it was like, well, if he's talking faster, like when I lived in New York and worked there, it was like boom, boom, boom, boom.

[00:27:17] And when I moved to Atlanta, I was like, holy crap.

[00:27:20] Right. I had to downshift like three.

[00:27:23] And, you know, there's a reason they drive pickup trucks with three on the trigger.

[00:27:27] Right. But it was a difficult thing.

[00:27:33] And I think that it adds another layer of our ability to be better.

[00:27:40] So, you know, we talk about learning the fundamentals and dribbling a basketball and shooting the shots and taking the shots from the different spots where we normally shoot on a basketball court.

[00:27:49] But it's the same thing with sales.

[00:27:52] If we're not trying to get better, if we're not looking for that slight edge to help us understand.

[00:27:58] And, you know, we're not going to teach people NLP here, but we're helping them see that there is an opportunity for them to get better at reading people and understanding the rapport.

[00:28:10] And because rapport leads to trust.

[00:28:13] Right. And that's something that takes a little bit more time.

[00:28:17] But you can get there faster if somebody is using these tools.

[00:28:23] And I think it's, you know, some people like NLP that's like brainwashing.

[00:28:28] No, it's not. You obviously don't understand.

[00:28:32] It's really refining communication and getting in sync with somebody.

[00:28:36] I mean, it could save a marriage. It could save a deal.

[00:28:39] It could save a relationship with a sibling or a child.

[00:28:45] So I think, you know, I wanted to make sure we dispel all those stupid rumors.

[00:28:51] I'm sure there's people that can use it in a nefarious way.

[00:28:54] But like, let's there's evil people out there no matter what.

[00:28:57] There's there's salespeople that do bad things as well without NLP.

[00:29:01] Like Uncle Ben from Spider-Man says with great power comes great responsibility.

[00:29:05] And so it's it's the exact same concept.

[00:29:10] You can you can manipulate, if you will.

[00:29:15] But manipulation can also be a good thing because we all pay a chiropractor to manipulate our joints and whatnot to get us back into alignment.

[00:29:22] So yeah, and that's what it is, is aligning things so that you have a shot at if you got a crappy product and you can't really solve somebody's problems, it doesn't matter.

[00:29:33] It's not going to you're not going to sell something because you've got crap.

[00:29:37] You're not selling snake oil. It's not going to help you with that.

[00:29:40] But if you're looking for an edge, it's something that can can get us there.

[00:29:45] So, you know, I think the question and don't tell me to read Dr.

[00:29:51] Bailen's book because it's.

[00:29:55] It was like a textbook.

[00:29:56] But if somebody wants to learn more, like they can talk to you and we'll get to that in a second.

[00:30:00] But if somebody just wants to go out and try to understand a little bit more about how this could help them as a salesperson, is there a resource out there that would make sense?

[00:30:09] Yeah, there's there's NLP Eternal, which is where that's an online program that NLP has created.

[00:30:18] The society of NLP has created.

[00:30:20] That's literally the recordings of majority of Dr.

[00:30:23] Bandler's trainings that are out there.

[00:30:24] So persuasion engineering, which is the sales course that I took.

[00:30:27] There's a recording of that on there and you can you can experience that.

[00:30:32] There's a number of different recordings on there of some practitioner trainings and things like that.

[00:30:36] There's some some basic skills trainings that are on there.

[00:30:39] That's a great resource for people who want to watch and listen to content and consume it that way.

[00:30:46] Otherwise, yes, you obviously have a whole series of books that are out there.

[00:30:51] And there's some of them are a little bit more complex or a little bit more technical.

[00:30:56] Dr. Bandler came out with one recently that's a little bit more direct, I would say, with with patterns for problem solving the new structure of magic.

[00:31:06] That's a new one that he has out that that really dives into the meta model, which is one of the core fundamental pieces of NLP that really, really changes the way you communicate with other people when you understand that model.

[00:31:21] OK, so I mean, there's things out there people can go look at Amazon.

[00:31:26] It can go Barnes and Noble if they want.

[00:31:29] They can Google it.

[00:31:31] And but one of the ways to really dive in and if they're serious and they want to learn more your website, there's a there's a page like can you will have it in the in the show notes.

[00:31:43] But can you kind of direct them where they go to just mind vault LLC.com?

[00:31:48] There's a contact us form on there and you can just fill out that contact form and then we can have a conversation about what the right next best steps would be for you.

[00:31:56] And is it is it right for everybody?

[00:32:00] I don't think it's wrong for anybody.

[00:32:05] OK, fair enough.

[00:32:06] Is it if somebody is really not serious about it.

[00:32:11] Can they kind of screw around with it and have have or do they really need to try to understand the fundamentals?

[00:32:21] It's actually a really good question.

[00:32:24] You'll learn things from from starting to go through the process.

[00:32:29] You'll learn things.

[00:32:30] You'll learn things about yourself.

[00:32:31] You'll learn things about others.

[00:32:33] You'll learn things about the world around you because it's it's understanding the way that the brain processes the world around us.

[00:32:40] However, if you're asking, can you be a dabbler and be good at it?

[00:32:46] Not I wouldn't say so.

[00:32:48] I mean, there's there's a reason that when when you get licensed, you get licensed as a practitioner of NLP.

[00:32:54] You get licensed as a master practitioner.

[00:32:56] It means that we practice it.

[00:32:58] We study it.

[00:32:59] We apply it and we do.

[00:33:02] Yeah, we do it.

[00:33:03] We use it.

[00:33:04] And that's that's really what it all is about is using it to help other people.

[00:33:10] So and it can help yourself if you're if you're willing to.

[00:33:20] To put in a little time, it's it's sort of like sales training in the sense that if you if you go through the motions, you're not going to get anywhere and you're in your you're just not you're not going to make progress.

[00:33:33] But if somebody is serious and they're trying to get to that next level right there, they want to get past President's Club.

[00:33:39] They want to they just want to get to earn another hundred grand a year.

[00:33:44] This could give them a bit of an edge to to get there.

[00:33:50] It's not guaranteed.

[00:33:52] There's no guarantee with anything.

[00:33:53] You get what you get out of it.

[00:33:54] So just just for my own personal experience, I mean, I'm not trying to toot my own horn.

[00:34:00] But before I learned NLP, I was a pretty good salesperson.

[00:34:04] Just what I would refer to as naturally or instinctively.

[00:34:06] I grew up with a dad that was a VP of sales.

[00:34:09] I was kind of always around it and understood it.

[00:34:12] I was enacting.

[00:34:13] So I knew how to model other people very easily.

[00:34:16] I could throw on an accent if I needed to, if I needed to throw a little southern draw with someone that spoke slow just so that they understood me better.

[00:34:25] I knew how to do those things intuitively.

[00:34:27] What NLP really helped me especially with was realize what it was I was doing that was making the difference that I was doing intuitively and had no idea at a conscious level that I was actually doing it.

[00:34:41] So once I brought it up to my conscious level, then it was like, oh, I can actually leverage this skill.

[00:34:46] I can double down on it.

[00:34:47] I can get even better at it.

[00:34:49] Not only that, I can teach other people how to do it so that they understand what it is that I'm doing differently on the sales call than they're doing consciously competent with intent and purpose.

[00:35:03] Yeah.

[00:35:06] And it's a and I think some people have tried different things and tied conversations with people that tried to use the tools, but they weren't really good at it.

[00:35:20] So if you've had a bad experience, that doesn't necessarily mean that you throw the baby out with the bathwater thing.

[00:35:29] You really need to dig in a little bit and find the right coach, if you will.

[00:35:35] Part of the part of the challenge, I would say with NLP overall is it wasn't for various reasons.

[00:35:44] It had a time frame.

[00:35:46] I think it was in the mid 80s where it wasn't very highly regulated.

[00:35:51] So there were a lot of people who were able to claim NLP as theirs because just the legal processes hadn't been put in place to protect it, protect the technology legally.

[00:36:03] So there's you can if you Google NLP, you can find that you can get a seven dollar certificate that says you're an NLP practitioner.

[00:36:10] I've bought those just to see what it is because I'm curious because I'm like I paid a heck of a lot more than that to go learn in person.

[00:36:17] Right. And I can tell you that you would be very hard pressed to learn what you can learn in person visually working with someone applying the skills, applying the tools, applying all that kind of stuff and learning how it actually works.

[00:36:32] And then changing to the next person and seeing how you have to calibrate again to a different person because the technology changes depending on who you're working with, so to speak, because each person processes the world slightly differently.

[00:36:44] Learning that online, not saying you couldn't get really, really good at it, but it would be tough, at least for me anyway.

[00:36:55] Well, it's sort of like reading a book and reading baseline selling.

[00:37:04] Right. It's a you can get the principles, you get to understand it, but you're going to have to study it and use it and practice it.

[00:37:11] And you're you get really good at it when you have somebody coaching you through the processes and understanding the components.

[00:37:18] So and NLP is no different.

[00:37:22] So last word, anything that you want to add to this?

[00:37:26] Ah, geez, that's a good question.

[00:37:28] I think I think the only thing that I would add is just explore it.

[00:37:32] It's a technology that's actually been out there since I think the mid to late 70s.

[00:37:38] It's well known in some circles.

[00:37:40] In my experience, it's gotten a bad rap in a lot of other circles.

[00:37:44] Sales being one of them, the field of psychology being another.

[00:37:48] But it's really it's a tool that's designed to help people use their brains more effectively.

[00:37:54] And my personal opinion, we all could use that.

[00:37:57] So let's land it there again.

[00:38:00] I appreciate the insights and maybe we talk a little bit more about NLP as it relates to a sales process down the line.

[00:38:11] So thanks, man.

[00:38:12] Appreciate it.

[00:38:13] Thanks for being part of another fun episode of sales and cigars.

[00:38:16] Let me ask you a question.

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