Sales and Cigars | Patrick Kagan | Sell The Difference | Episode 170

[00:00:00] Hey everyone, Walter Crosby with Helix Sales Development, your host of Sales and Cigars.

[00:00:04] Today's episode, I've been looking forward to this because I had a great conversation

[00:00:08] with Patrick the first time we chatted.

[00:00:10] It was two sales guys who have a lot in common and we just hit it off.

[00:00:18] He's got several books that he self-published.

[00:00:23] We're going to talk about one of those called Sell the Difference.

[00:00:26] We get into some really unique coaching ideas that Patrick brings to the table.

[00:00:32] Being able to draw things out, he tells a great story.

[00:00:36] He's from Chicago so he tells a great story about Phil Jackson and Michael Jordan

[00:00:40] and how that epiphany happened where Jordan can be like,

[00:00:43] oh I'm part of a team that all wants the same thing.

[00:00:45] That was part of the downfall of the Pistons when that happened.

[00:00:48] So we talk about that, we talk about coaching.

[00:00:50] Go grab a cocktail, grab a cigar, strap in for another impactful episode of Sales and Cigars.

[00:00:57] So Patrick, welcome to Sales and Cigars and thanks for taking some time to jump on the program.

[00:01:24] Thank you Walter, I'm glad to be here.

[00:01:27] We do a little conversation before this a few weeks ago and you were kind enough to reschedule for me

[00:01:37] because I had a personal challenge so I really appreciate that.

[00:01:39] But I'm excited to have this conversation because that conversation flowed so naturally.

[00:01:45] I've been looking forward to this.

[00:01:47] Yeah, me too.

[00:01:48] So let's start off with is there a book?

[00:01:55] Is there something that you recommend to business owners or to people that ask you?

[00:02:03] Is there something that you recommend that they read besides one of yours?

[00:02:07] Yeah, I'm not the only book out there so there's an author that I'll recommend, Sean Akers.

[00:02:15] All of Sean Akers stuff is really good, big potential, the happiness advantage.

[00:02:21] I don't know him, is it Sean with a SH or SEAN?

[00:02:25] SH.

[00:02:27] And then also there's an author, his name is Kevin Keppel, K-E-P-P-L-E.

[00:02:32] And he's got a book that just came out, it's called Unlocking Your Freedom.

[00:02:36] And this is just a really good, easy read with a lot of information that's both strategic and tactical at the same time.

[00:02:47] So Kevin Keppel, K-E-P-P-L-E, Unlocking Your Freedom.

[00:02:51] Yeah, I saw some of your social media promoting that and I started poking around.

[00:03:01] It's a phenomenal read, it's so worth it, it's really power pack, I love it.

[00:03:06] I like books that are just cut to the chase and give you some value

[00:03:11] and that you don't have to go searching around with a stick to find the value on it.

[00:03:15] Well, and you know what I like about Kevin's book is that it's relatable to a lot of folks but you can reach this guy.

[00:03:22] So you have a question, you can reach him and he'll reach back.

[00:03:25] So it doesn't happen with authors.

[00:03:28] So it's very helpful in every way.

[00:03:32] It does happen but it's rare.

[00:03:36] I've reached out a couple of big time authors and they didn't call me back two minutes later

[00:03:46] but they got back to me in a few days because I posed a question that they thought was interesting.

[00:03:50] And those are always fun conversations.

[00:03:55] Absolutely.

[00:03:56] So those are two, the author and both of those authors will put those in the notes too to share.

[00:04:03] Perfect.

[00:04:05] And we're going to get to your books in a minute but let's talk a little bit about your journey.

[00:04:12] It's interesting, I don't have to go back to kindergarten but

[00:04:16] let's talk a little bit about how you got to where you are and why you wrote your book.

[00:04:21] Yeah, well I mean the point that stands out in my mind is being 17 years old

[00:04:29] and joining the army back when Be All You Can Be came out.

[00:04:35] And so I grew up in very humble household.

[00:04:42] When I look back now we were pretty poor is what it was.

[00:04:46] We didn't know right?

[00:04:47] We didn't know.

[00:04:48] I thought everybody was like that exactly.

[00:04:50] And so I was paying a lot of the household bills.

[00:04:54] I went to Paral Kill School so I paid the tuition for myself and my sisters.

[00:05:00] They got to the point where it was time to go to college and I didn't have anything saved because I was

[00:05:06] contributing to what was right in front of me.

[00:05:08] And the infantry offered that they would pay for college if you joined the infantry.

[00:05:15] The reintroduction of what used to be the GI Bill.

[00:05:18] Yeah, yeah.

[00:05:20] So I joined the military and you know what's interesting is it's a great environment to

[00:05:28] help bring out the bass to the people.

[00:05:31] And it was at a time when Ronald Reagan was the president and there were a lot of hot zones in

[00:05:35] the world and there's a lot of fear as a 17 year old going off to war.

[00:05:40] And so there was a lot of fear of that but there's also the greater reward I get to go to college.

[00:05:45] And the nice thing was that the military put me at a young age in charge of platoons,

[00:05:53] lots of expensive equipment, lots of weaponry, lots of people.

[00:05:58] And I learned a lot about working within a group of folks and then also leading people through

[00:06:05] situations where lives are on the line.

[00:06:09] It's good that in corporate America that isn't the case.

[00:06:11] Right.

[00:06:12] And so it was great to reinforce that the harder you work, the more you'll move up and

[00:06:18] the greater things that can happen to you.

[00:06:21] But it also as time goes on, as you fast forward and you make it through college

[00:06:25] and you get on with your life and you get into corporate America,

[00:06:28] you learn that it's more than just hard work that advances you.

[00:06:33] And so the lessons I learned earlier that it's what you do that gets you further

[00:06:39] became more about it's what you do differently that can advance you further.

[00:06:45] And that's really where everything began, where the lessons were being taught.

[00:06:50] And what led me on my journey.

[00:06:52] You mentioned my book, the title of the book is called Sell the Difference.

[00:06:55] And I just found that I was learning lots of lessons about differentiation,

[00:07:00] how important that is in leadership, how important that is in communicating with groups,

[00:07:05] and how important it is just being a father or a brother or a neighbor or a differentiation

[00:07:11] is really what makes the world go round.

[00:07:13] So that's really the starting point.

[00:07:15] That's what I learned to carry forward.

[00:07:17] There's a dichotomy there though, right?

[00:07:19] If you started off 17, 18 years old and joined the military to be all you could be,

[00:07:25] they didn't embrace difference in the military.

[00:07:29] The military doesn't embrace difference.

[00:07:31] The military has uniformity.

[00:07:33] So I was learning uniformity rules that that higher achiever I was the higher I moved up the ranks,

[00:07:41] then that doesn't always translate into corporate America.

[00:07:44] And that's what I'm saying when I moved out beyond the military into corporate world.

[00:07:48] I had to relearn.

[00:07:49] I had to look back at what I did learn and realize that it wasn't just

[00:07:53] what I accomplished that moved me along.

[00:07:55] It's what I did differently.

[00:07:57] And then it was a definitely it was growing pains because you try to apply what you were

[00:08:02] doing as a soldier and it doesn't work.

[00:08:05] And you either keep trying that, you keep running into the wall hoping it turns into a door

[00:08:09] or you stop and reevaluate reassess and say, you know what?

[00:08:13] When I did things differently, when I made a difference, when I became a category of one

[00:08:18] to that person, better things happened.

[00:08:21] And so I started relooking at the fact that you can be a high achiever and do it

[00:08:27] through your differentiation.

[00:08:28] So no, one did not translate to the other.

[00:08:31] You're absolutely right.

[00:08:33] And that I mean, first off, thanks for your service.

[00:08:38] That has to be a it was there are a lot of hot zones around the country.

[00:08:44] There wasn't huge, huge conflicts, but there were significant conflicts

[00:08:49] that needed to be dealt with and Ronnie dealt with them.

[00:08:54] You guys had resources, I would think probably more so than other times.

[00:09:00] Was that was that accurate or is my interpretation way off?

[00:09:06] I mean, your interpretation of us having resources and Ronald Reagan the handling

[00:09:11] correctly.

[00:09:12] I would say historically is correct.

[00:09:14] I mean, you have to, you know, you'd have to take yourself back in time.

[00:09:17] The Internet didn't exist.

[00:09:21] This was 1983.

[00:09:23] We're at the height of a different Cold War was Russia.

[00:09:27] They were a superpower.

[00:09:29] Lots of fear around.

[00:09:32] And, you know, the whole concept of where the biggest top on the black America North America

[00:09:40] puts you in a position where you're expected to answer many different calls to action.

[00:09:46] So as a 17 year old who, you know, like I said, grew up

[00:09:51] in a humble household, this is a whole new world for me.

[00:09:55] And there was definitely fear that this would happen.

[00:09:59] And when you look back, the avoidance of all the Star Wars and all the

[00:10:05] things that could have happened was good and it turned out to be okay.

[00:10:10] So, you know, I was fortunate that I didn't have to go and fight in a different country

[00:10:16] or even my own country in that respect.

[00:10:20] So, you know, I would say that.

[00:10:22] Go ahead.

[00:10:23] I'm just, there's a dichotomy there, but there's something similar to the differences you

[00:10:28] encountered in corporate America.

[00:10:29] And I don't want to go too deep and I don't want to give into politics, but I'm the same age,

[00:10:35] right?

[00:10:36] And I sort of, I didn't join the military almost became a Marine, which would have been

[00:10:42] probably bad for them and me, worse for me.

[00:10:45] But because at that age, I was not good with confines and given lots of direction and,

[00:10:54] you know, being told what to do basically.

[00:10:57] So it probably wouldn't have been a good fit.

[00:10:59] But my point is, is that you learn the things that you needed to learn to learn how

[00:11:06] to manage people and deal with people and conduct that kind of business.

[00:11:11] But while that was going on, there was politics being handled at a higher level

[00:11:18] to position the country in a different way so that there was no long-term conflicts.

[00:11:24] Like we're just going to agree that we both can take each other out and let's maintain

[00:11:30] that.

[00:11:31] And then when you get into corporate America, you have to go play that game.

[00:11:36] And I'm just wondering if there was a moment in that corporate world where you realized,

[00:11:41] oh, I got to be who I need to be in that moment to be able to do what I need to do to grow.

[00:11:47] Was there a particular moment or was it just a sort of seep along?

[00:11:52] I think it's seeped along and it's a better way of putting it the way you said it.

[00:11:56] Because, you know, you don't know what you don't know when you first enter

[00:11:59] the workforce.

[00:12:00] I mean, I don't care if you were in the military or not.

[00:12:03] Like there's still the dynamic of the people around you, the people above you,

[00:12:08] the shareholders.

[00:12:08] And you have to learn, you know, you have to be able to play nice in the sandbox

[00:12:13] and collaborate and listen actively.

[00:12:16] And it isn't commanding an infantry unit.

[00:12:20] And if you can't grow beyond that, you shouldn't be in that role.

[00:12:24] I mean, that's as far as you're going to go.

[00:12:26] So self-limitations are exactly that.

[00:12:28] They're self-limitations.

[00:12:30] And if someone doesn't have the capacity to listen, learn, adapt and grow,

[00:12:35] then that's as far as they're going to go.

[00:12:36] You know, you're defined by what it takes to discourage you.

[00:12:39] And discouragement means you stop your momentum.

[00:12:41] You stop moving.

[00:12:42] So whether it's a corporate job, whether you have your own business,

[00:12:46] whatever it may be, you know, you're going to seek your own level.

[00:12:49] And if you keep expanding your knowledge and your growth and your

[00:12:54] experiences, then you never reach that level.

[00:12:56] So that's, you know, there was several points where I learned that lesson.

[00:13:01] But it, you make a really, really strong point that we're sometimes our own

[00:13:09] worst enemy.

[00:13:10] I mean, we could say this lots of different ways, but, you know,

[00:13:14] the joke is that the longest distance on the golf course is the eight inches

[00:13:17] between our ears.

[00:13:19] And I think it applies to corporate America.

[00:13:23] It definitely applies to sales, because if we have these non-supportive beliefs

[00:13:27] that are going to limit us to adapting and trying to get better and just being

[00:13:34] nimble enough to maneuver, we will not grow.

[00:13:40] We will create problems and you will stagnate and lose jobs a lot of times.

[00:13:47] But I think that's a really important point.

[00:13:50] The skills that we need for a role can be taught.

[00:13:55] Like the military does that really well.

[00:13:57] They can teach skills to do things.

[00:14:00] But the thing that you do with it, that are part of your books that you're

[00:14:04] coaching people, you know, a lot of the time we spend coaching people,

[00:14:08] it's about what they're believing and trying to help them see if they

[00:14:12] have a chance to do something.

[00:14:14] And that never seems to happen in one big poof.

[00:14:17] At least for me, I've had epiphanies, but there's something that stood out

[00:14:23] after I got smacked in the head five or six times.

[00:14:26] It's like, oh, that's what they meant.

[00:14:27] Yeah.

[00:14:29] Whether it be sports or business,

[00:14:32] it's not a big deal.

[00:14:33] It's not a big deal.

[00:14:34] It's not a big deal.

[00:14:35] It's not a big deal.

[00:14:36] It's not a big deal.

[00:14:37] It's not a big deal.

[00:14:38] It's not a big deal.

[00:14:39] It's not a big deal.

[00:14:40] It's not a big deal.

[00:14:41] It's not a big deal.

[00:14:41] Whether it be sports or business, like, oh, that's what that guy meant,

[00:14:47] or that's what she meant by telling me that, or, okay, now I can go forward.

[00:14:51] And if we're not willing to look at that, I think that that's how we kind of

[00:14:56] sabotage our own growth, especially if we're not looking to grow.

[00:15:03] Right.

[00:15:04] Right.

[00:15:04] Now, I agree.

[00:15:05] I think that you can't discover something for somebody.

[00:15:09] And if people don't recognize that they have pain in their role,

[00:15:16] then they never look to soothe that pain.

[00:15:19] Right.

[00:15:20] So the folks that I work with when I do coaching, I always explain to them that,

[00:15:24] you know, if I'm going to tell you how to do it, then I'm that, you know,

[00:15:28] let's call that teaching.

[00:15:29] I'm just, I'm preaching, teaching.

[00:15:33] But if I'm coaching, so let's use a different term,

[00:15:36] I'm going to take a look at what you're doing naturally.

[00:15:38] I'm going to try to amplify or enhance what you're doing,

[00:15:41] even if you use the analogy of golf, even if your golf swing seems unnatural to me,

[00:15:47] if it's natural to you and you think there's only one thing you have to modify,

[00:15:51] but you become the best golfer on the tour,

[00:15:54] then what does it matter if it's picture perfect?

[00:15:56] The outcome is really what you're thinking about.

[00:15:59] When people embrace that idea, I'm really after the outcome.

[00:16:03] And Patrick's only here to look at the process and coaching is really looking

[00:16:08] at what I'm doing naturally.

[00:16:10] And I always try to take bite-sized pieces,

[00:16:12] let's pick one thing and work on it.

[00:16:14] And when that becomes better, we pick the next thing we work on it.

[00:16:18] And then we move forward that way.

[00:16:19] And actually that is something I learned in the military

[00:16:22] because, you know, the military gives you a good outline of how to do things,

[00:16:26] but you have to bring your own self into it.

[00:16:29] And I always work with people down in the trenches very, very well

[00:16:32] because I carry the machine gun, I carry the M16, I carry the radio,

[00:16:37] I commanded the squad, I had done it all.

[00:16:40] So I could appreciate the pain they'd gone through.

[00:16:43] And that made me a better leader.

[00:16:46] And so that is something I did carry with me from the military

[00:16:49] into the corporate world is that, you know,

[00:16:51] you have to appreciate what people's pain points are

[00:16:54] in order to help them.

[00:16:55] They have to appreciate the help you're trying to give them.

[00:16:57] If they don't want it, you can't help them.

[00:16:59] Hey, thanks for being part of Sales and Cigars.

[00:17:02] I wanted to share a new project that we just launched.

[00:17:05] I wrote a new book called Scale Your Sales.

[00:17:08] It's written for the CEO.

[00:17:09] It's a short, powerful book that explains the seven critical mistakes

[00:17:14] that CEOs make with their sales organization.

[00:17:16] It provides actionable steps that you can take to fix those problems

[00:17:21] in your business today.

[00:17:23] And it might even help you get out of the sales seat yourself.

[00:17:26] So appreciate you listening to Sales and Cigars.

[00:17:29] You can find this book on Amazon or wherever you buy books.

[00:17:32] Thanks.

[00:17:33] And I think that's a delicate situation.

[00:17:37] Go ahead.

[00:17:37] Like, you know, you use the phrase,

[00:17:39] you can't discover something for somebody, right?

[00:17:43] You can't help them want it.

[00:17:47] And the way I phrased it to people is,

[00:17:49] I can't want this more than you do, right?

[00:17:52] And that being their growth.

[00:17:56] So I've always struggled with the person who just like,

[00:18:01] I'm fine, don't need any help.

[00:18:03] You know, leave me alone.

[00:18:06] And you know, you can poke around there and it's like,

[00:18:09] you know, we're not asking you to completely flip the apple cart.

[00:18:12] We're asking you to just look over here at this one thing.

[00:18:16] This will help you be more effective.

[00:18:18] It'll help you be more, you know, and it's amazing how I think it comes down

[00:18:24] to just this idea of I'm fine.

[00:18:26] I don't want to get better.

[00:18:28] But it really, it's really, they're afraid.

[00:18:31] Of something.

[00:18:32] Yeah, well, you're not wrong.

[00:18:33] And like my favorite story and again being from Chicago,

[00:18:36] I like to refer back to one of our greatest athletes, Michael Jordan.

[00:18:40] And there is nobody who wanted the championship more than Michael.

[00:18:45] And the years leading up to the Bulls run of championships

[00:18:49] were very exciting to watch.

[00:18:51] Really compelling games against some great adversaries.

[00:18:55] And as they were on the precipice of becoming these world champions for multiple years,

[00:19:04] there's a story that Phil Jackson tells where Phil Jackson, the coach,

[00:19:08] kept saying to Michael, who's open?

[00:19:11] Who's the open man?

[00:19:12] And Michael took the team upon his shoulders and Michael kept trying to score

[00:19:15] and Michael kept getting shut down.

[00:19:17] And every time there was a time out or a break,

[00:19:19] Phil would say, Michael, who's the open man?

[00:19:22] And he had the mentality, give me the ball.

[00:19:24] I desire this.

[00:19:27] Finally, one time Michael says, John Paxton's open.

[00:19:31] He says, okay, didn't tell him what to do.

[00:19:33] Just made Michael recognize you have a team around you.

[00:19:37] John Paxton's open.

[00:19:39] So Michael then began to drive the lane, get four people on him,

[00:19:43] throw the ball back to Paxton, three pointer.

[00:19:46] And something opened up inside of Michael Jordan.

[00:19:49] His mind opened up that, oh my gosh, the path forward has to do with making the other

[00:19:56] leaders around me leaders.

[00:19:57] They there's not followers on this team.

[00:19:59] There's other leaders that recognition now that it's not that Michael Jordan doesn't

[00:20:04] know this in the heat of the moment.

[00:20:07] What you're doing naturally is not helping us win a championship.

[00:20:11] And it's not helping you with anything.

[00:20:13] That's what you desire.

[00:20:14] So nobody could discover that form.

[00:20:16] Phil Jackson just kept asking who's the open man?

[00:20:19] He couldn't say Michael.

[00:20:21] Packs is open.

[00:20:21] Let's design this play you charge in, they cover you, you throw it back.

[00:20:25] He couldn't have done that.

[00:20:26] He could have, but he was a good enough coach and a good enough psychologist to

[00:20:30] know that he couldn't do that.

[00:20:32] Correct.

[00:20:33] Correct.

[00:20:33] And so because he discovers this, he can go on to other teams like the Lakers

[00:20:38] and do the magic that he does because it's not magic.

[00:20:41] But it's allowing people to discover something.

[00:20:44] The value that comes out of somebody else's learned lesson on your team

[00:20:48] is more valuable than anything you could ever teach.

[00:20:51] And that's the power of influence and that's really what leadership is.

[00:20:54] And that's really what effective sales is, is understanding that you can influence

[00:20:58] others to understand how you see their situation, but you can't do it till

[00:21:04] they're ready to see it.

[00:21:05] Yeah.

[00:21:06] And sometimes we, you know, people in a development role or a coaching role,

[00:21:15] we lack the patience to give them that space because of other factors going on.

[00:21:22] Absolutely.

[00:21:22] But the other thing is, right?

[00:21:25] So I grew up in the Detroit area.

[00:21:27] So when Jordan figured this out, you know, John Daly and Isaiah Thomas

[00:21:33] in the Pistons like, oh, shit.

[00:21:35] Yeah, that was a great team to watch.

[00:21:38] Yeah.

[00:21:38] They were great teams to watch, you know, go against each other.

[00:21:43] I think there was, despite the antics, there was respect.

[00:21:48] Absolutely.

[00:21:49] And it was a time that there were leaders all over that floor, right?

[00:21:56] And there were a couple of followers at least on the Pistons.

[00:21:59] They weren't really leaders, but there's talent everywhere.

[00:22:04] And they just need to figure out how to work it together.

[00:22:07] And that's Daly's job and Jackson's job to pull the team together.

[00:22:12] And that's a great story and really, really powerful.

[00:22:16] But sometimes when we're dealing with a sales team, we don't have that talent, right?

[00:22:25] We don't have the professionalism of all the 5, 10, 12 guys that are all trying to get to the ring

[00:22:35] or get to the championship.

[00:22:37] And sometimes they don't even have that on those teams, right?

[00:22:39] Those guys don't care.

[00:22:40] That's correct.

[00:22:41] That's the challenge.

[00:22:43] And it's really the coach's responsibility to figure that out.

[00:22:47] And that's a really great lesson.

[00:22:51] So you wrote the books and the thing that attracted me to this conversation was sell the difference.

[00:22:59] You know what?

[00:23:00] I think it's a great lesson.

[00:23:02] The thing that attracted me to this conversation was sell the difference.

[00:23:06] You know, why?

[00:23:09] Like I wrote a book and I know why I wrote it, but what motivated you?

[00:23:14] Like what was your driver there?

[00:23:18] Well, a lot of it came down to the sales teams I had led in the past.

[00:23:27] And just a combination of helping others again go through this process of

[00:23:34] becoming better than they even thought they were themselves.

[00:23:38] I enjoyed it.

[00:23:39] It's flat out I enjoyed it.

[00:23:41] So I enjoyed the coaching and the development of my sales teams.

[00:23:47] I also enjoyed I coached my daughter's basketball team from when she was kindergarten

[00:23:51] up through a travel team in high school.

[00:23:54] I learned more about leadership and sales from coaching little girls in kindergarten all the way

[00:24:00] through.

[00:24:03] And so, you know, yeah, you, well, I think you can draw lessons if you're paying attention,

[00:24:07] your life is presented to you to give you lessons to make you better along the way.

[00:24:12] And so I really embraced the idea of servant-minded leadership.

[00:24:16] And that's what got me going with sell the difference.

[00:24:20] Um, because it is about sales.

[00:24:23] It is about profits, but it is about customer satisfaction, client satisfaction.

[00:24:27] And so my whole thing is to if you can sell from the customer's point of view,

[00:24:34] and you can solve the problems that are on their mind or they're not even aware they have

[00:24:38] then you've created for yourself a category of one.

[00:24:41] So imagine if you compete with nobody, that's the goal.

[00:24:45] Now, you're going to make your upper six figures from reading this book, but it's not

[00:24:50] a get rich quick.

[00:24:51] It is a process because like you mentioned, the big majority of sales people are not

[00:24:57] world-class athletes.

[00:24:58] They're not at that caliber.

[00:24:59] They might not even want to be in sales.

[00:25:01] They might not have even had training.

[00:25:03] People have gotten rid of onboarding in the corporations.

[00:25:06] So you imagine a sales force that they maybe are bringing with them habits they

[00:25:11] have from their previous parts of their life that don't fit into this culture.

[00:25:15] And then they repeat them.

[00:25:16] So this is really taking you back to a framework of listen to understand and approach

[00:25:22] things from the customer's point of view.

[00:25:24] And there's a lot of strategy that I break into pieces that help amplify what

[00:25:28] people are doing well and help give ideas to people who maybe aren't even doing that at all.

[00:25:32] So it stemmed from having sales teams that became better than they thought they

[00:25:40] could become.

[00:25:40] And to this day, 30 years later, these folks stay in touch with me and talk to you about

[00:25:45] how I influenced your career.

[00:25:46] And I thought, you know, this would be a good thing to bring out to the world.

[00:25:50] And that my wife actually encouraged me, you need to write something because you've

[00:25:53] helped a lot of people and this could have a bigger reach.

[00:25:55] So that's what got me going.

[00:25:58] That's awesome.

[00:26:00] Those moments that a sales person calls you, it could be like while you're

[00:26:06] working with them, it could be a couple of years later.

[00:26:09] But those are the moments like we don't want to get paid.

[00:26:11] That's important.

[00:26:13] But that's a form of compensation that I don't know how you put a dollar amount on

[00:26:17] when somebody calls you up and say, you know, we were working on that thing.

[00:26:21] Yep.

[00:26:21] Well, I tried it.

[00:26:23] Yeah.

[00:26:23] And it worked.

[00:26:25] And the conversation flowed and they're so excited, right?

[00:26:29] Yeah.

[00:26:32] And then now they're in and they're going to be able to,

[00:26:35] you know, they're going to be able to grow.

[00:26:39] Like I've had that happen to me when I've had like a really shitty week

[00:26:44] and the sales guy calls me on Thursday evening on his way home from a week on the road.

[00:26:51] And he's all excited.

[00:26:53] And it just fixes the whole thing for me.

[00:26:57] It's like, oh, that's why I do this.

[00:26:59] You know, it's funny because back in the day was we had hate track players

[00:27:04] and then when they moved to cassette players, right?

[00:27:06] So my sales team, we would, I just, you know, we just had Friday morning meetings, right?

[00:27:11] That's what we call it.

[00:27:11] Friday morning meeting.

[00:27:13] And we would play Brian Tracy sales tapes on a cassette.

[00:27:17] So we graduated from ATREX and we would listen and then we'd stop and we'd talk

[00:27:22] about how that applied to our jobs.

[00:27:24] What we did.

[00:27:25] And I would do this with my sales team.

[00:27:27] They take notes, they go out and they do things.

[00:27:30] And it wasn't a Monday morning kickoff.

[00:27:31] It was just Friday, Fridays because, you know, that's what worked and they kept people

[00:27:36] in a more productive mode.

[00:27:38] I bought them breakfast and so they got to the office early on a Friday.

[00:27:42] So 30 years later, salesperson who he's, you know, a multimillion dollar producer

[00:27:47] of the company he's at now.

[00:27:49] He calls me.

[00:27:50] I hit to the phone.

[00:27:51] I don't know the number and I recognize his voice.

[00:27:54] He says best made a driver head.

[00:27:56] I'm like, John, what's going on?

[00:27:57] And he's like, I still have all my notes from our Friday morning meetings.

[00:28:01] And he's like, I still use that.

[00:28:02] You know, you taught me the three step sales approach and I'm like, holy cow.

[00:28:06] That's great.

[00:28:06] I'm glad to hear it.

[00:28:07] He goes, no, I wanted to call you.

[00:28:09] I wanted to thank you because I've made a great living because of you.

[00:28:11] I think he would have done well without me, but it was really like he said,

[00:28:14] nice thing for him to say made me feel like, wow, that's why I go to work every day.

[00:28:19] Yep.

[00:28:20] And but it also says something about his character.

[00:28:24] Okay.

[00:28:24] He didn't have to pick up that phone.

[00:28:26] He could have had that thought and let it go.

[00:28:28] Absolutely.

[00:28:28] He felt compelled to make that call.

[00:28:32] And that's the connection.

[00:28:35] That's the power of what we do.

[00:28:39] So we'll have this stuff in the show notes, but where's the best place for somebody to go grab the book?

[00:28:47] Amazon?

[00:28:48] We can help.

[00:28:49] No, I don't work through Amazon.

[00:28:51] So the hardcover books are self-published.

[00:28:54] You go to pksolutionsgroup.com.

[00:28:56] That's my website.

[00:28:58] And there's a book about differentiation in sales called sell the difference.

[00:29:02] So then there's a book about differentiation and leadership called create the difference.

[00:29:06] And then the audio books, I've linked some of my website or any platform where you can get an audio book.

[00:29:12] Both of those books are on audio book.

[00:29:15] And then my newest audio book is called clear leader, kind leader.

[00:29:19] And it's a short, it's a very short leadership book under $7.

[00:29:24] You can get it on Spotify, you can get it on Google Play, you can get it on Chirp,

[00:29:27] wherever you go for your audio books.

[00:29:30] So if you prefer to read a book, you've got it hardcovered.

[00:29:33] If you prefer to listen to it, then we have them on audio book as well.

[00:29:36] You have a bundle too, right?

[00:29:39] Yeah, I've got a bundle package.

[00:29:40] So if people want to buy both the leadership and the sales book, they can get it.

[00:29:44] And if they message me, I'll get them a coupon code so they can get a discount

[00:29:49] on the bundled set.

[00:29:50] Yeah.

[00:29:51] Awesome.

[00:29:52] So folks, if you're out there, it's in my queue.

[00:29:56] I honestly haven't read it yet, but it's queued up for me to read.

[00:30:03] So I'm looking forward to that.

[00:30:05] So if somebody has a desire, they just message you on the website and you'll hook them up with a code.

[00:30:11] They actually go to the website, they can buy it right there.

[00:30:14] They can buy it right there and then it'll ship to them.

[00:30:17] If they want the coupon code, they can message me through contact us

[00:30:22] or if you contact me, the best way to contact me, you're getting in touch with me.

[00:30:27] You can go to my LinkedIn profile, send me a message, say you heard this on sales and cigars

[00:30:34] and you'd like the coupon code, you get the bundled set, I'll get it to them.

[00:30:38] Awesome.

[00:30:39] So there's a benefit of listening to the podcast folks.

[00:30:42] Absolutely.

[00:30:43] One of these days, one of your guests will say the book to read is one of my books.

[00:30:46] It'll come full circle.

[00:30:48] I'm working on an episode where I talk about some of the books that influenced me

[00:30:58] and I have a couple of books that I've had, authors that have guessed that not all of them,

[00:31:06] but there's a couple that I'll have included.

[00:31:09] And I think yours might be one of those that I'll just talk about.

[00:31:12] Here's some resources if you're sales and you're trying to put good stuff in your brain

[00:31:16] while you're driving or while you're sitting around drinking a beer,

[00:31:20] here's a list of books to do that.

[00:31:24] Absolutely.

[00:31:25] That'd be great.

[00:31:26] I mean there's a ton of books in my e-books and things that I have out there that I recommend

[00:31:32] for people, but I think I'm about doing an episode like that.

[00:31:35] So last question, Patrick, past or present?

[00:31:40] Relationship with cigars?

[00:31:41] So I got a funny story.

[00:31:44] I don't smoke cigars, I don't smoke anything really, but in my days of golfing with clients,

[00:31:51] I had a client, he did like to smoke cigars on it and so we always made sure we had cigars

[00:31:56] for this gentleman and he would smoke the cigar, throw it on the ground,

[00:32:01] hit his ball in the golf course, pick up the cigar and keep going.

[00:32:04] And the funny story is that they had sprayed fertilizer and he got a lactic reaction

[00:32:08] and his lips swelled up so big, but it didn't happen quickly.

[00:32:13] It happened over the course like three or four hours, so we kept looking.

[00:32:16] I thought he was having a stroke because it was getting numb

[00:32:19] and finally I looked and his lips were swollen so big I said,

[00:32:22] I think you're having allergic reaction to something and it was the fertilizer in the

[00:32:27] car so he got some better drill, he was five, but that's my funny story.

[00:32:32] I have not witnessed that, but that's one of the things that when I see a guy

[00:32:41] toss the cigar on the ground, I'm like dude, here and I give him this little thing I have

[00:32:49] in my pocket where they stick it in the ground and it holds the cigar.

[00:32:52] Yeah, it's like a tea for your cigar, yeah.

[00:32:54] And there's lots of ways to do it, right?

[00:32:57] You can clip it to the golf cart, you can put that thing down,

[00:32:59] but putting a cigar on the, you have the fertilizer issue, you have dampness, you got

[00:33:07] bird, penguin.

[00:33:11] You never know what's running around a golf course, right?

[00:33:13] And people are walking all over the place and you're going to pick that up and put it in

[00:33:16] your mouth and you usually only have to say that once to somebody and then they're like,

[00:33:20] oh yeah, give me one of those.

[00:33:22] And I always had an extra one in my bag to share with somebody.

[00:33:27] Give somebody.

[00:33:28] Because it's a, that's awful, but Benadryl hooked him up and he was good.

[00:33:33] Hooked him up, yeah, you should put your lobo on that and give it to people.

[00:33:38] I haven't played golf in about five years, but that would have been a smart thing to do.

[00:33:46] Patrick, I appreciate you taking the time here.

[00:33:50] I'm going to look forward to reading the book and we'll talk soon.

[00:33:55] Thanks.

[00:33:56] Always a pleasure, Walter.

[00:33:57] Thanks.

[00:33:57] Thanks for being part of another fun episode of sales and cigars.

[00:34:01] Let me ask you a question.

[00:34:02] Are you tired of struggling to hire sales talent that's going to move the needle

[00:34:07] for your company?

[00:34:08] Well, maybe you should attend my sales hiring secrets program and discover the

[00:34:13] number one mistake that business owners are making with hiring sales talent in their

[00:34:18] organization.

[00:34:19] The details are in the show notes.

[00:34:21] Click on the page.

[00:34:22] It gives you all the details.

[00:34:23] It gives you everything you need to know to solve the problem of sales talent on your team.

[00:34:29] Thanks.