Sales & Cigars | Provide a Pathway, Not a Call to Action with James Hipkin | Episode 220
Sales and CigarsMay 20, 202537:2934.31 MB

Sales & Cigars | Provide a Pathway, Not a Call to Action with James Hipkin | Episode 220

Welcome to Sales & Cigars, the sales podcast, where the only smoke we blow is from cigars. In this episode, host Walter Crosby is joined by marketing professiona James Hipkin to discuss common marketing mistakes business owners make and how to better align marketing strategies with customer needs. To begin, James emphasizes that a company’s greatest growthengine is its current customer base. By understanding and nurturing relationships with existingcustomers, businesses can drive referrals and scale more effectively. Marketing should startwith a deep understanding of these best customers and aim to attract more like them. Jamesalso notes that great marketing cannot create demand where none exists; rather, it should meetcustomers where they are and speak to their desires and fears. James critiques the common practice of relying on superficial marketing tactics, like simply having a website or shouting “calls to action,” which often reflects an "inside-out" approach. Instead, he suggests a shift to an "outside-in" mindset that invites prospects into “people like you pathways,” allowing customers to self-identify and choose their journey. To help smaller businesses apply these principles without the massive budgets of large brands, James developed a cost-effective process using structured interviews with ideal customers and AI toolsto generate detailed customer avatars and buyer journey maps. This method enables tailoredmessaging that resonates deeply, improves sales scripts, and fosters collaboration betweenmarketing and sales for more powerful, aligned strategies. Effective marketing strategy helpspre-qualify prospects so that sales conversations become more natural and effective. This is made possible by understanding the customer deeply through tools like avatars and buyerjourney maps, allowing for the right message to reach the right person at the right time. Whendone correctly, customers feel understood and develop trust through each stage of the process. However, James warns that even well-designed marketing can be undermined by poor sales execution, which ultimately disrupts the buyer’s experience and can drive them away. James also shares insights from his extensive experience working with companies to improve loyalty and customer retention. A flawed sales process, he notes, is often the root cause of loyalty problems. He stresses the importance of a buyer-first, outside-in sales approach that walks alongside the customer rather than leading or dragging them. Listening, asking thoughtful questions, and embracing silence are crucial skills for salespeople to truly understand and help their prospects. James’s toolset, Marketing Sage Advantage, is designed to help businesses gain clarity on their ideal customers, messaging strategy, and measurement. He frames marketing as a three-legged stool—audience, value, and measurement—and underlines that success comes from aligning all three. Key Points: •Biggest problem with Marketing is a lack of strategy •Primary purpose of website isn't conversion •MarketingSageadvantage.com tool set •Audience, value you bring, measurement •Listening to conversations Find more episodes of Sales & Cigars here. Learn more about James Hipkin. James’ book Jame’s company Red8 Interactive, Inc. launched Inn8ly to help small business owners take full advantage of a modern website without being bogged down with all the complexities of a modern website. Our 3 Keys to Success for Small Business Owners: ◉ Customer-centric design ◉ Efficient build ◉ Secure hosting •Outside in conversations

[00:00:07] Hey everybody, Walter Crosby with Helix Sales Development, your host of Sales and Cigars, the podcast for entrepreneurs where the only smoke we blow is cigar smoke. Today my guest is James Hipkin. The topic is marketing strategy and the big mistakes that business owners and CEOs make that cause their great product or service just not to land with your ideal audience. James is an entrepreneur and offers up some tools for free that will get you on the right path to aligning your vision with marketing and sales.

[00:00:37] The golden nuggets that he drops in this episode are many and really valuable to help you scale. So go grab a cocktail, grab a cigar and strap in for another insightful episode of Sales and Cigars. Thanks. James, welcome to the program. I appreciate you taking some time out of your busy schedule to have a conversation.

[00:01:00] Hey, I am so so glad to be here. I'm looking forward to sharing some thoughts with you and hopefully bring in some value to your audience. Well, that's the idea and value to the audience value to you and for me to learn something and have some fun. Those are the three big goals. Fun is good. Fun is important. If you're not having fun, you're working. And to me, even when I'm working with clients, if I'm not enjoying those conversations and working with those people, it doesn't last very long.

[00:01:29] I'm still in touch with clients that I worked with 25 years ago. So got to have some perspective. We do lots of stuff with lots of moving parts and custom software and crap breaks.

[00:01:42] And clients will call up in a panic. And my standard response is, so are any puppies going to die? That stops them every time. And they're like, no. Okay. Something broke. We'll figure out what broke. We'll get it fixed. Nobody will remember in 24 hours.

[00:02:01] That's a great line to get somebody. I call it lowering resistance, right? We just get everybody back down to like this emotional state where we can have a rational conversation. Yep.

[00:02:13] For the most part, we're not brain surgeons. We're not surgeons. So there's not an emergency. I mean, there's things that need attention, obviously. If we miss something by an hour or there's an issue, nobody's dying and puppies aren't going to die either. People get their drawers in a bunch. Let me start off like I often start off. Is there a book that you reread or that you gift often to your business colleagues?

[00:02:42] Yes, there is a book.

[00:03:12] And the value that your current customers are your number one driver of growth. And it's often overlooked because everybody's in a panic about, you know, sales funnels and marketing and advertising. And I've got to get people in and all that. The most powerful engine of growth is your current customers.

[00:03:40] And the loyalty effect was written and proved it like he had the data. He wasn't just esoteric rambling. He had the data and he proved it. And I took a lot of his ideas and have used them throughout my career. And I have reproven a lot of those ideas with work with companies like Wells Fargo and Visa and where I had access to the data.

[00:04:07] It's powerful stuff. And it really informed so much of where I'm at and the successes I've had in my career. I've been that concept of start with your customers. I agree with that. And I love a book that I haven't heard of that I can go get now and read. But I like especially a book that I like the premise is something I believe in.

[00:04:37] If we're taking care of our existing customers, we should be getting introductions and referrals from those folks on a regular basis if we train them properly. Right. And we earn it, basically. You got to earn it every day, every week, every month.

[00:04:55] And there's another huge benefit. When you really, truly understand your best customers. And I chose my words carefully there. Because all your customers are not equal. 80% of your revenue is likely coming from 20% of your customers. The parallel principle exists for a reason.

[00:05:15] Yeah. And another principle that's important in marketing is the best marketing in the world won't change a customer's need state. If they don't need what you're selling, they're not going to see your marketing. Doesn't matter how good it is. They don't need it. They're not going to see it.

[00:05:37] People are overwhelmed with the noise. So understanding your best customers and what makes them tick can really be a powerful engine for your sales efforts. If you understand what your current best customers are all about, then you start to craft your marketing to attract more people like them. It starts to build on itself and it takes all that power and multiplies it.

[00:06:05] Yeah. And because you're working with people that understand what they need, you're working with people that you understand them. I had a guest on the other day who shared that it's cheaper to go get new business, right? And he had data, statistics to back it up.

[00:06:22] I think that if you really understand the psychological profile of your buyer, you care about, you understand what they desire and what they fear, what motivates them. And you can tap into that language and you're able to niche into that. But if you don't model that and you're not clear about why they're buying from you, if you just ask, it's weird. All you have to do is ask and they'll tell you.

[00:06:52] Yep, they will. One of the things when I audit digital marketing programs, when I audit websites, when I look at the work, there's one problem that is common almost in every situation. And that's an absence of strategy. There's a whole lot of what I call checkboxism. I'm supposed to have a website. I got my nephew to make me a website. Look, there's a website. Check the box.

[00:07:21] But they don't know how to use it with the rest of their marketing, the rest of their sales effort. They're not making sure that the marketing message is congruent with the sales message. Right. And if we confuse our buyer and that transfer, we're done. And that's strategy because strategy is the backbone of your marketing plan. It's the thing that everything hangs off of.

[00:07:47] And it's the thing that gives your marketing plans strength. So our audience is that small to midsize business, right? Not the billion-dollar companies. I mean, you've worked with a lot of those folks. But in terms of that smaller and midsize, so they have that issue, probably even more so than the bigger companies.

[00:08:08] How do you get them to think differently about that strategy and connect it to their buyer, to their marketing message, to their sales message? I've got a couple of ideas. And a little controversy can go a long way. And it gets people's attention. And one of the more controversial things that I like to say to people that tends to get their attention is, I want you to stop saying call to action. Right?

[00:08:36] And people go, wait, what? Because they've been told since day one that they need to have a call to action. But think about it. A call to action is a marketer shouting at a customer and telling them what to do. Customers don't want to be shouted at, and they don't want to be told what to do.

[00:08:56] If you start thinking in terms of, I'm creating a people like you pathway, your audience probably has two or three sub-segments that are key to your business. You're going to call out to them, have them self-identify, and have them choose a pathway. Now, functionally, a call to action and a pathway, exactly the same thing. It feels different.

[00:09:24] It's the mindset shift is very important because the call to action is what I call inside-out marketing. It's the business owner standing on the roof of their building shouting at the world at large, you need to do these things because I am awesome. Right? The world at large doesn't give a damn. Meanwhile, a pathway is you, a customer, are awesome. And you are special.

[00:09:53] And I recognize you, and I'm going to give you this pathway that you can follow to find and get the information that you're looking for. And when they choose that pathway, two very powerful things have happened. They've told you exactly who they are because it's a people like you pathway. And they've given you permission to give them more information. They've chosen to be there.

[00:10:22] How awesome is that? If you're in sales and you get somebody who's like, I really want to talk to you about this. Does that not put you on the edge of your seat? Like, oh my God, this is awesome. I'd still be a little skeptical. But that is exactly what we're looking for. Right? We want somebody to self-identify and feel comfortable that we as a seller or a company understand their concerns.

[00:10:50] We understand the world that they live in. We understand what's coming at them on a regular basis. And that isn't pitching. That isn't, you refer to it as a call to action. It's making people feel comfortable like, oh, he gets me. Right? Or they get me. I want to learn more about what this is because I'm drawn to it. Right? And that makes the whole sales process. Right? Because we still need to qualify those folks and make sure that they are a fit.

[00:11:19] If you're looking at it from that outside in piece, and that's how I refer to it, is outside in. We need to be able to, it makes our life easier. Because the people that are like, oh, that's not me. And they go someplace else. Yay. That's a win. Another principle of marketing is it's as important to repel the wrong customers as it is to attract the right customers.

[00:11:46] And this concept of pathways accomplishes that. It's a simple concept to get somebody to understand. Then they have to go execute on it. And this is where the rubber meets the road. When I was working with large brands and multi-eight-figure budgets kind of thing, it was nothing for us to spend the money on the research required to do customer avatars and build the buyer's journey maps. And using research and focus groups.

[00:12:15] And this was business as usual. And it's one of the ways that the big brands differentiate themselves from smaller businesses is that they can afford to do this and the smaller business can't. So they do a lot of guessing. And they end up with a lot of inside-out marketing versus the outside-in marketing that's practiced by the bigger, more strategic brands.

[00:12:37] You know, one of the things that we've been doing is trying to harness the power of AI to bring some of this thinking and make it accessible to these smaller businesses. Doing research with AI? Well, it's not research, no. What it is, is I partnered with an old colleague of mine, much to my wife's amazement. People who work with me like me. They keep coming back. She and I developed an interview guide that we give to clients.

[00:13:06] And the clients go and they find their best customers and they interview them. And they record the interviews. It's a structured guide so that we're getting all of the information that we're looking for, but we're getting it in the customer's own language. We're getting it as they talk about it. And then we take those six to ten interviews, the audio files, and we put them into a custom GPT that we created.

[00:13:35] And it's got all of the knowledge files attached to it and the insights from myself and from my colleague and from secondary research that we've done. And it analyzes the transcripts from the interviews and generates an avatar of your ideal customer. And it generates the buyer's journey map that describes what caused them to become aware of the need for the category. What process did they go through when they were researching?

[00:14:05] What were the decision factors involved when they were prospecting and trying to decide between this option and that option? And then what were the final drivers for the purchase decision? And that mapping of that journey map allows you to craft your marketing so that you're not shouting at people. You're supporting the journey that they're on because you know what they're looking for.

[00:14:32] You're getting it straight from your ideal customer. You're getting it straight from your ideal customer and then using extrapolating from that out into the marketplace in totality to attract more people like your ideal customer. A study like that and using traditional techniques with focus groups and the rest of it might cost you 50 grand. This process is a fraction of that cost. The ROI on that is huge. Oh, yeah. Massive.

[00:15:01] Because that goes beyond. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but it goes beyond a website. It goes about product pieces and how your sales. I mean, that can be translated as in how your salespeople talk about. Absolutely. Scripting. All kinds of things. Because you know who you're talking to. And you know what they're like. You know what they're looking for. You know the kinds of questions they've got in their heads. And you can start to recognize. I relate everything to sales.

[00:15:30] And I think sales and marketing need to play more friendly in a sandbox, right? We got to stop kicking sand at each other and actually be proactive because the information when it's combined is incredibly powerful. And that's what you're talking about. Getting that it's so much easier to listen to somebody in a sales call and they start asking questions about this thing over here. And that's not what we do. So it's so much easier to say we don't have a fit.

[00:15:59] This isn't what we're doing isn't isn't good. But that's going to happen so much infrequently. You're attracting the right people and repelling the wrong people. Exactly. There's an old direct marketing adage, which is one of my foundational principles. I didn't invent it. It's been around for a long time, but it's no less valid today than it was when it was first coined by whoever said it first. Get the right message to the right person at the right time.

[00:16:29] But that combination of the avatar and the buyer's journey map allows you to understand who's the right person, what's the right message, and the journey map helps you understand what's the right time to deliver that message. Because what you say to somebody at the top of the funnel, when they're just recognizing that they have a need, is not going to be the same as what you say to them when they're trying to make a decision. So am I going to pick this person or am I going to pick this person?

[00:16:59] But if you've taken them through that journey, right, and you've taken them down the pathway you're talking about, and they've self-discovered, oh, that is something that we have. And you're going through, you're changing the conversation as you're traveling through this path. They're naturally going to be, you get me, right? You fight like with the old Sally Fields when she won the Oscar thing and got all like, you finally get me. That's sort of what's happening when this is working.

[00:17:28] You're building trust, you're building relationships all through the marketing process so that when the sale is happening, it's not so much a sale as the next logical step in their journey. And they're going to take that step with you. If the sales guy doesn't screw it up, that's sort of the challenge because they have a tendency. I've told this story before, but I've had, I knew I wanted to buy a particular type of air conditioner and furnace, right? I wanted a particular combination.

[00:17:57] I knew what the size was. I knew what the brand was. I called the people that said that they had the brand come out and I'm like, all right, you have this and this. Yep. Okay. I'm ready to go. Let me walk you through. You're not listening. I'm ready to buy, write it up. And he couldn't help himself. I've been taught to do this pitch and to make you sure that you understand that the, and I don't care. I've already done my research.

[00:18:26] What you're talking about is that somebody, you have to have that receiver, like, you know, the, you're winding up and you're pitching from the pitcher's mound. And that catcher's got to be ready for the curve ball. So, but that's already been decided and you're ready to receive it. That's what the salesperson is able to receive that buyer where they are and make the confirmation. And then the sales is about helping somebody. If you walked them down this pathway and you have a solution that's going to take away some fear or it's going to help them get to where they want to go.

[00:18:55] It's a win for everybody. It really is. And it's, and it builds on that topic we were talking about at the beginning about the importance of, and the value of your existing customers. Earlier in my career, I was at an agency in Chicago and we got hired by a large telecommunications company to help them with their loyalty. They were literally losing customers faster than they were gaining customers.

[00:19:19] We sponsored a research study into loyalty to understand what the thriving factors were. I don't remember any of the details from the research itself, but I do remember a sentence that was shared by the guy who led the research and his company specialized in loyalty research. He'd done loyalty research across every category you could imagine.

[00:19:44] And he said in his preamble, in his experience, 90% of loyalty problems can be traced to a flawed sales process. And that one sentence is informed so much about what I've done over the course of my career. It's the idea behind what I've been talking about with avatars and journey maps and all that sort of thing.

[00:20:07] If you can build a sales process that supports the journey that the customer is on, by the time they get to the purchase, they've convinced themselves it's a good idea. That's how it's supposed to work. You're just helping them take the rest of the journey. You're helping them through the process, answering those questions that they might have.

[00:20:32] There'll be some detail, but it's confirming everything that we've talked about in the past is the same. Is it going to really fix this problem? Well, tell me about that problem. You just don't say yes. Let's make sure. Make them comfortable that you're not just giving them the yes. That process has to be outside in as well. It's got to be, you know, we call it a buyer's first sales process, right?

[00:20:59] Because we're thinking about having the right marketing and having the right conversation with that person who's self-identified. And you can screw that up six ways to Sunday in that way. But if we're not continually helping them, walking with them through this path, not in front of them, not pulling them, not pushing them, walking alongside them, seeing the same landscape as they have from your perspective. And what do you see? How do you see that working? Where do you see the trouble?

[00:21:29] Salespeople are afraid to ask those questions that the salespeople need to hear that help them say, yeah, that's going to work. You sure? Like, you have this problem and that problem. Yeah, but we can do this. When they start to describe how the solution is going to work, then they're really, they're engaged. They're not confused. They're engaged.

[00:21:52] I spent a lot of time during my career training account executives and working with clients and that sort of thing, which is in many regards. One of the hardest things for them to learn how to do and one of the most important things for them to do, stop talking. Yeah, there's that. There is that. You got to listen. Think about it from the perspective.

[00:22:18] If you watch a football game at halftime, the coach is running off and then they get the sideline reporter to ask three questions. They never listen to the answer. They're just waiting for them to stop talking so they can ask the third question because the producer's in their ear. That's what salespeople do. They step on there, even if they ask a good question, they don't stop talking. They try to help them, like, just ask the question.

[00:22:44] And silence is your friend because if you take a pause and you make some silence and you make an opening, it's amazing. The client will tell you all kinds of information about what they're struggling with, et cetera, et cetera. I remember four years in or so when I was working with this telecommunications company, an executive from one of the other advertising agencies came up to me in the hallway and said,

[00:23:14] you know, James, you need to write a book. I'm like, what? He said, you need to write a book. He says, really? What do I need to write a book about? He said, you've been handing us our lunch for four straight years and we all still like you. That says about how you deliver. It says about that you're actually helping them and it helps them understand.

[00:23:40] The guide that you're talking about to interview their customer. That's an amazing tool to help somebody really start that strategy component of their business. That's just one of the pieces that you've dropped here today. What's the best way for people to dig in a little bit more? We'll get more James, get more, you know, in your company. Where would you send them to gather more data to start to understand?

[00:24:09] I learn a great deal by sharing conversations with people and hearing their perspective and recognizing the challenges that they're facing. The gray hair is quite legitimate. I've been doing this a long ass time. There's very little that somebody is going to tell me that I haven't heard before.

[00:24:31] But I'm able to distill a lot of that experience down into principles and down into things that people can relate to that just make common sense. I'll be talking to somebody about a website and I'll ask them, so what do you think the primary objective of the website is? And they'll go on about all the things they want the website to do. And then we'll have a conversation around the definition of the word primary. There can only be one.

[00:24:59] And typically they'll land on conversion. And it's almost always wrong. Conversion is clearly part of it. But the primary job of the website is confirmation. You used that word earlier in this conversation and I loved it when I heard it. You also talked about outside in and I love that because I use the same words. I talk about outside in marketing versus inside out marketing all the time.

[00:25:27] So I love talking to business owners about the challenges that they're facing and helping them get some clarity over stuff that they should do. Because when it gets right down to it, marketing is not that complicated. It's a three-legged stool. Who's your audience? What are they looking for? What's the value that you bring to that audience is the other leg.

[00:25:55] And the third leg is measurement. Are you measuring what you're doing? Do you know what your audience is engaging with and what they aren't engaging with? Do you know what's creating value for your customers, which ultimately will create value for your business? You get that three-legged stool working in harmony, you'll have success.

[00:26:22] VIP chat with James if you want to talk to me about this stuff. That'll get you to my calendar. You can book some time. We'll do a virtual coffee. Love to hear what people are struggling. So you just love having these entrepreneurial conversations about marketing. I've been doing this a long time. I'm supposed to be retired. My wife keeps telling me when are you going to retire.

[00:26:42] I still just get such joy and satisfaction about helping businesses use marketing to create value for their customers and create value for themselves. And I see so many of the same mistakes being made. And that's really, I can really help people get clarity on the stuff they're doing right and the stuff that, hey, really? I don't care what your nephew said. Yeah. You shouldn't be on TikTok.

[00:27:11] Every social media thing isn't where I've had somebody tell me, you need to be on TikTok. Me. And I'm like, okay, that's never going to happen ever. And if my ideal client is on TikTok, then I need to find another client because that is not me. I can't be authentic in that space. So people should go to their website and dig in and try to get a conversation with you over a virtual coffee. Absolutely.

[00:27:39] And if they're interested in the tool set that I just talked about, marketing, we call it Marketing Sage Advantage. And it's sage like the smart person, not the stuff you burn in California. You can go to MarketingSageAdvantage.com. And we've got a whole landing page there about what the product is and how it works. But we've used it. We've got a bank client that's using it. We've got a manufacturer of women's skincare products.

[00:28:07] Clients have just, it's just made a huge difference to the quality of their messaging. Because if you think about it, I use the wheel analogy a lot when I talk about marketing. Where the website is the hub and the digital marketing channels are the spokes. And the content and messaging strategy is the rim that holds it all together. You've probably heard about hub and spoke before. It's that rim thing.

[00:28:36] Because the power doesn't come from the bits and pieces. It comes from the connections. And holding it all together. Yeah. That's what brings it all together. And Marketing Sage Advantage is the tool set to give you an objective understanding of who your customers really are demographically, what they're like as people, what is the pain that they're struggling with, and what is the transformation that they're looking for.

[00:29:06] Super, super, super important to building that content and messaging strategy. Otherwise, it's like a bowl of spaghetti. Everything just kind of flows together and you don't know which end is which. And everything's equal. And that's the measurement piece of it helps you understand that everything isn't equal. It is not. So I'll have the marketingstageadvantage.com in the show notes so people can go there, check that out. So my last question, Jim, past or present, any relationship with cigars?

[00:29:35] I'll tell you a funny story about cigars. I was working. I'd been transferred to South America and I was working in South America with Pillsbury. We were launching Green Giant canned vegetables in Latin America. And I was the liaison between the consumer packaged goods people at Pillsbury and the local agencies in South America. It was a fascinating three years of my life.

[00:30:00] Partway through, we were heading back up north to go home to take a bit of a vacation and a deep breath and et cetera. And since we were flying, we were living in Venezuela. And since we were flying over the Caribbean, we decided, well, let's stop at one of the Caribbean, the islands in the Caribbean and have a like three-day, four-day weekend just for us. Because, you know, going home was much of a vacation because you had to visit everybody and parents and all the rest of that stuff.

[00:30:28] So we landed in Puerto Rico and we got in a little puddle jumper. And the pilot came on and said, I'm sorry, there's going to be no in-flight service because of the hurricane. And we're like, wait, what? So we landed on Antigua. We were on the windward side of the island. The resort owner came to our door. You can't stay here. There's a hurricane coming.

[00:30:56] We've made arrangements for you to be, to move across to the leeward side of the island. There's a resort there. They have a casino that's also a hurricane shelter. You'll be safe. So we packed up, drove across the island, which is another different story, which I won't bore you with now because we had an adventure on that just on the trip.

[00:31:15] So I spent the night with my wife, sleeping on the floor of the casino with 35 of our closest friends, sitting out on the balcony, smoking cigars and drinking gin and tonics while Hurricane Hugo rolled right over the top of us. We were safe. But when the eye of the hurricane were over, went out there smoking cigars and drinking gin and tonics in the beautiful starlit sky because that was the eye of the hurricane.

[00:31:45] That's a hell of a story. But you grabbed cigars and thought that was a good idea. Yeah. Was it the gin and tonics that helped you make that decision? I think it was just, hey, we can't do anything about this circumstance. We're safe. Might as well enjoy it. That's what we all did. You can say that you lived through a hurricane smoking cigars. I don't think I've ever heard a story comparable to that with cigars and hurricanes.

[00:32:15] Those usually don't go together. It's an awesome story. Yes, true story. I had a friend who we were in New Orleans for a conference. There was a hurricane coming through. My plan was to get the hell out of Dodge because I know how New Orleans is built and water always wins. His plan was to have the drink a hurricane in O'Brien's on Bourbon Street during the hurricane. There you go. That was his plan.

[00:32:44] And he had had enough hurricanes to get it. And he did it. They stayed open. There were a bunch of crazy people sitting in there drinking hurricanes during the hurricane. It wasn't an original idea, apparently. There were no cigars involved. So I love that story. Thank you for sharing. And I'm glad it worked out. No, our little four-day weekend on Antigua turned into 10 days because the airport was completely destroyed and they couldn't get planes in or out. And it was an adventure.

[00:33:13] We've had a lot of adventures over the course of our lives, and we earn it, basically. Well, the thing is, in Venezuela, because of its geographic location, the weather is always the same. They don't even talk about the weather in the news because it's always the same. But in the Caribbean, in the fall, there's hurricanes. But not in the south, down on the top of South America, which is where Venezuelan is. It all happens north of them. So they don't talk about it.

[00:33:41] I remember I was on a sailboat, and I had made friends with the captain. And he was like, you know, tonight's going to be rough. It was like our last night. And I'm like, well, what do you mean rough? Like dinner's going to be tough? And he's like, no, no, no, no, we're not going to have dinner. And I'm like, why not? He's like, because we're trying to beat the hurricane to get back to Barbados. And I'm like, what do you mean you're trying to outrun a hurricane? Yeah.

[00:34:10] I'm like, seriously? Can't we turn? Can't we do something? He goes, no, no, we'll be fine. I'm like, we'll be fine. He goes, yeah, it'll be a little choppy. People will be uncomfortable, but we'll be fine because we're just going to use the wind to get us to get there faster. And I remember that sailboat was, it couldn't have been at a 30 degree angle, but it was pretty listing to the side. And he was hauling ass.

[00:34:37] I don't know a lot about sailing, but he knew what he was doing. I saw him the next, because you weren't allowed to leave your cabin. You couldn't go up on a deck or anything. I saw him the next morning because I had made friends with him earlier. And he's like, I told you it was a piece of cake. No big deal. Boat's fine. Everything's wonderful. And I'm like, yeah, okay. Next time I'm checking. Well, I don't take sailboat cruises in October and November anymore. It's a little, it's a little sketchy.

[00:35:05] So James, I appreciate all of the insight. It's some really good marketing advice for the audience. If you're running a company and you want to improve your marketing and you do want to improve your marketing, get ahold of James, marketing, sage advantage.com. You're going to get some tool sets and then go grab a virtual coffee with James. I think there's some little nuggets there that people can solve some big problems. So thank you. My pleasure. Thank you for the opportunity.

[00:35:37] So how was that? I mean, James really dropped some great nuggets about marketing strategy, what your website is and what your website isn't. The three-legged stool with your audience, the value that you bring, and the ability to measure things. And one of the things that we talked about off screen that I think is important here that we can add to this conversation. I mean, James was an artist, right? He played the tuba. He was a classically trained tuba player that went into the rock and roll area.

[00:36:06] He had some great relationships with bands like Rush. And he got to know certain people. And they gave him this permission to go out into business and add value using his skill set that he had learned being as a roadie for some great bands. But this outside-in marketing conversation is something that I talk about in sales, that we need to be outside-in oriented.

[00:36:31] I have a lot of EOS clients, and they're really focused on this idea that everything is all about them, their vision, their strategy, their three uniques. Your customers don't give a shit about that. They care about what you're going to do for them. And this is where this outside-in idea for marketing, the outside-in for salespeople, taking them on a buyer's journey that's going to help them self-discover that you're the right fit. So I hope this adds some value. Go back and listen to those pieces.

[00:37:01] Check out the show notes. He's got marketing, sageadvantage.com. Go check that out. There's some things that you can download there. Thanks for listening. Appreciate it. This is all about you guys, adding value to you guys. I'm having fun. I want to learn things. But we're trying to add value to you, the business owner and the sales leader. Thank you.