1 Hour Straight of SOLID MSP Business Advice, from a top 500 MSP (MSP Titan #18)

[00:00:00] If you could not leave your business, then you don't have a business. And I go, wow. And guess what? You've graduated. And guess what, Gory? You have not been in the business for nine months. Oh my gosh! And it changed the whole mentality. But it was the whole thing. It was kind of that Jedi mind trick. What happened?

[00:00:22] But what was cool is that those out of high moments was if you have to be in the business daily, then you don't have a business. You are the business. And if anybody wants to buy it, acquire it, or do anything else, they basically are acquiring you. And you're going to go get a job.

[00:00:37] Hey guys, Damien Stevens, host of MSP Mindset. And today I continue my mission to interview 100 of the fastest growing and most interesting MSPs on the planet. Today, I was blessed to be joined by Corey Kirkendall. And he is one of the only MSPs I've ever met that started his business by saying no. He said no to the wrong fit. No to the wrong niche. He knew what he wanted. He had the right core value.

[00:01:10] And he set aside the financial cushion to be able to say no from day one, which has allowed him to grow his MSP like no other. Now, he's also positioned since day one as a business guy that uses technology as a lever. So he's part of their board meetings. He's part of their level 10 meetings. And that has enabled him to say AI is a new lever. But I'm a business person. So I'm going to show you how to drive value with your business, just like I do with technology.

[00:01:40] But now with AI. So it makes him the first MSP that I've interviewed that is making real revenue with AI. If that interests you, don't miss out on our conversation today.

[00:01:53] Where were you working before you decided to start this business?

[00:01:56] Business. Yeah. So, man, again, man, I started out way back in 1990 working for IBM. Right. And I was just doing a healthy PC help desk kind of a deal. Right. And I was like, yeah, this is cool.

[00:02:13] I was doing the third shift, you know, kind of chilling and taking calls. And, you know, I loved it because I was three days on, three days off, four days on, four days off. And I almost felt like I didn't have a job. Right. It's like, oh, my gosh, I was home more than I was working.

[00:02:27] And then all of a sudden, you know, this PC thing and this computer thing came pretty easy for me. And I was like, all right, this is cool.

[00:02:34] So I started taking classes, getting into networking, started doing everything and left IBM and went to work for this little small company called Cisco.

[00:02:41] At the time, back in 94 and 90s, you know, Cisco was a small company. I remember when I was at IBM, it was big on token ring. They said that Ethernet stuff is never going to go anywhere. So they opted not to participate in that.

[00:02:55] And so I started out at Cisco and, you know, 17 years of career there and learning in various businesses inside of the Cisco.

[00:03:04] I learned a lot about big time enterprise support, service provider support, understanding about really, you know, ITIL and service management, things from that perspective.

[00:03:15] But I always had a passion. I knew I had this entrepreneur experience. I want to go out and start my own. I know what I want to do. Right. You know what I wanted to do.

[00:03:22] And so during that process, I went through and got went to an MBA program and I had to write a for my final project.

[00:03:31] That's right. A business plan. And I just happened to write a computer support services kind of a plan and wrote it out.

[00:03:39] And I was like, man, I got the coolest business mentors. It was all my professors and people who are all business minded.

[00:03:45] And they read it. It's like, yo, man, this is actually really good. You should go do something like this.

[00:03:50] I was like, OK. So I went out there and got one customer is my first customer.

[00:03:58] And still my customers to this day, 16 years later, still my customer.

[00:04:01] And and I was like, OK, then every time I went out there, I tried to kill it.

[00:04:06] It's like this was all good. It was a project. I don't want to do it anymore. It just kept going.

[00:04:09] And I got another customer that had another customer for a long time.

[00:04:13] It was my side hustle until I say, you know what, I can't serve two masters.

[00:04:17] I have to go put my effort into this thing. And so I decided to walk away from Cisco and walk away from corporate America and say, hey, I'm going to go do this full time and really do it.

[00:04:27] That was probably one of the best decisions I ever made is saying, hey, you know, I was able to go focus, put the effort to where I need to get done and grew the business to where we've been doing it for the last 16 years.

[00:04:37] And just kind of doing it. And it really came out of bringing large enterprise quality and support down to small, medium businesses to to to to allow IT to become their their superpower is what I always tell them.

[00:04:52] Right. It's like, you know, when you're doing things efficiently and your IT is in check and you're able to do things faster.

[00:04:57] I mean, you do have this hidden superpower.

[00:04:59] That's kind of when I go in and, you know, I do a presentation to him.

[00:05:03] I say, you know, kind of think of us as five case, you got in the back with the with the chest.

[00:05:08] Right. You know, I'm cool, collected.

[00:05:10] But when you need me, I'm able to boom, bust out and say, that's my superman over there.

[00:05:15] We're going to go through the thing. And that's kind of it is use IT as your superpower.

[00:05:19] That's kind of what we've been bringing. And it all starts 100 percent around relationship is a and that started for when I was at Cisco.

[00:05:27] I did an expat in Australia for three and a half years and in Singapore.

[00:05:31] And the Australian mentality is saying, man, you you Westerners, man, y'all just want to come in here and do business and be done.

[00:05:38] But they are really big on building a relationship and being a mate, being a friend, want to know who you are, how many kids you got when your birthday is happening.

[00:05:46] Do you like this? Do you like that? And before you even talk business, they want to know who you are, how you are.

[00:05:52] And they genuinely want to know how you're doing. And I think that was so infectious.

[00:05:57] I was like, man, I got to bring that back into whatever I do and say, you know what?

[00:06:02] That makes sense. Let's go in here and have this conversation about who you are, where you're growing, how your business, what you're doing, how many kids you have.

[00:06:09] Do you like football? Do you like baseball? What does that look like?

[00:06:12] Before we even break down that barrier of what's your problem? What are you trying to go down that path for?

[00:06:18] And I think that's been very fruitful for us and really, really stands out.

[00:06:23] This episode is brought to you by Servocity.

[00:06:26] I started Servocity because I was an MSP that lost data because I thought backup success meant I could recover.

[00:06:34] And boy, was I wrong.

[00:06:36] If you've ever been there or anywhere close, you know how much your stomach turns over the thought of not being able to recover any version of the data for your client.

[00:06:46] Now, naively, I set off to build a better mousetrap and build a better backup product until finally I realized it's all about the people and the process.

[00:06:57] So you have a choice to make.

[00:06:59] Do nothing and bury your head in the sand or level up your processes.

[00:07:02] Now, you can do that by either hiring Servocity or we'll take all the workload of managing backups off of your plate and test your backups daily, weekly, monthly and quarterly.

[00:07:11] Or you can keep the tech stack you have in place, your existing backup into your provider and steal my 18 years of knowledge and download that process and add that to your operational maturity today.

[00:07:25] So speaking of that, how many children do you have?

[00:07:29] So I have three kids.

[00:07:31] I have a 30-year-old, a 21-year-old and a 17-year-old.

[00:07:36] Wow.

[00:07:36] You don't think you're old enough to have a 30-year-old, Corey.

[00:07:39] I know, man.

[00:07:40] I know.

[00:07:40] They're making me old, man.

[00:07:42] It's like, yeah, my 30-year-old, he's doing well.

[00:07:45] So we're totally polar opposites.

[00:07:48] I am out there.

[00:07:50] I'm an engineer, very boom, boom, boom, boom.

[00:07:52] And he is a creative.

[00:07:53] He does video editing.

[00:07:55] We could not be on so par excerpt.

[00:07:57] You know, he's like, yeah, just let it flow.

[00:08:00] It'll happen when it happened.

[00:08:01] I'm like, no, it needs to happen today at 1 o'clock.

[00:08:06] So I'm learning to ebb and flow into his world when I need to.

[00:08:10] So it's been really cool.

[00:08:11] That's amazing.

[00:08:12] Yeah.

[00:08:13] And then how many MBAs did you end up completing while you're raising your kids?

[00:08:19] Two, man.

[00:08:20] I did two, man.

[00:08:21] So my people tell me I'm that quintessential overachiever.

[00:08:24] And so when I was in the school, I did an MBA in communication management and conflict

[00:08:31] and resolution management.

[00:08:33] They said, why do you do that?

[00:08:35] I said, because I believe that communication is key.

[00:08:38] I said, typically when any problem is happening, if you break it down to the communication and

[00:08:42] look at the standard background of where it's coming from and their different points of views,

[00:08:45] you can see why people get off kilth.

[00:08:48] It's because we assume that everybody's in the same place that we are.

[00:08:52] And that's just not true.

[00:08:54] You know, simple words of please, thank you.

[00:08:56] Yes, ma'am.

[00:08:57] And really genuinely showing that peace.

[00:09:00] I think what solved most of the problems in the world today, if we just had an opportunity

[00:09:03] to say, you know, hey, tell me what's up.

[00:09:05] Understand that, hey, you came from a point of view and I have one.

[00:09:08] And guess what?

[00:09:09] You're right.

[00:09:10] And I'm right.

[00:09:11] So how do we come to a common ground versus me trying to inflict my rightness upon your

[00:09:16] rightness?

[00:09:17] And you're going to flick your rightness upon my rightness.

[00:09:19] And it just causes what?

[00:09:21] Conflict.

[00:09:21] Right.

[00:09:22] And so that was really cool.

[00:09:25] So and I also did it when I was working because my kids are like, you know, I always want

[00:09:28] to show them like, hey, if I'm working full time supporting you and get an MBA, you could

[00:09:34] go to school and get good education, too.

[00:09:36] So it was also a learning experience for both of us.

[00:09:39] So it was good.

[00:09:40] There was a method to the madness.

[00:09:41] And it's been good.

[00:09:42] My kids are pretty smart.

[00:09:44] They do the thing.

[00:09:45] They said, but, you know, never challenge dad because he will always take you one up.

[00:09:49] So that's that's that's that's the one we're going to lose.

[00:09:53] I love that.

[00:09:54] I love that parenting lesson.

[00:09:57] Speaking of that, my family, when you left corporate America to say I'm all in on my own

[00:10:04] business.

[00:10:05] Was there fear there?

[00:10:08] Was that jumping off a cliff?

[00:10:11] Yeah, it was.

[00:10:12] So I knew what I wanted to do, man.

[00:10:14] So one of the first things I needed to do was I needed to, one, make sure I had enough

[00:10:19] capital on myself to make sure that I could support my family with no change in their behavior

[00:10:24] for at least a year.

[00:10:26] Oh, wow.

[00:10:26] I mean, they had to have funds to go do that so that it was no impact to them.

[00:10:30] They could continue to play sports.

[00:10:31] My son was in select soccer.

[00:10:33] He played the cello.

[00:10:34] They had they had they had some some expenses.

[00:10:37] I was like, OK, the wife had to have the same car.

[00:10:40] She had to drive.

[00:10:41] She wanted to be with one by a purse.

[00:10:43] She got to go buy a purse.

[00:10:44] It was my problem.

[00:10:45] I wanted to quit.

[00:10:45] It's hers.

[00:10:47] It's my problem.

[00:10:48] Right.

[00:10:48] And then I also wanted to make sure that when I did this, one of the most important things

[00:10:53] I got from school and MBA was I needed to have enough cash flow and enough initial capital

[00:10:59] that I was able to say no to customers that were not going to fit my model because they

[00:11:06] taught me that if I say yes to something, I'm going to say no to something else.

[00:11:09] And if I didn't have that that cushion or have that ability, then I would have probably

[00:11:15] took anything and everything.

[00:11:16] I would have went into residential because, hey, you know, you want to buy a computer?

[00:11:21] I can do that.

[00:11:22] I would have went into everything that was against where I needed to go to.

[00:11:25] I would have did it because it was not about staying true to my business plan and my values.

[00:11:29] It was about surviving at that point in time, which everybody does know if I'm wrong with

[00:11:32] that.

[00:11:33] But that allowed me to say no to the customers that didn't fit and say yes to the ones that

[00:11:40] truly were going to take us to where I need to go and made us stay true to the game.

[00:11:46] So in that situation, that's where it was really cool for me is to say, wow, I had the ability

[00:11:52] to do that.

[00:11:53] And that was mind blowing to some customers that you would walk in there and say, you

[00:11:56] know what?

[00:11:56] This is great.

[00:11:56] I think this would be a great relationship, but I don't believe I'm the right partner for

[00:11:59] you.

[00:12:00] Right.

[00:12:00] And you tell them no.

[00:12:01] They're like, hold up.

[00:12:02] How dare you tell me no?

[00:12:04] Right.

[00:12:04] It wasn't an ego thing, but it was just like I felt and I had the ability to say, man, if

[00:12:09] we're having a challenging conversation on $3.50, how am I going to charge you $300 when

[00:12:15] you need to buy that new machine or upgrade yourself and things that I can already feel

[00:12:19] it?

[00:12:20] And my spidey sense is going off saying this is going to be a hard conversation.

[00:12:23] This is going to hurt our relationship and I will never be able to get you to the place

[00:12:28] where I need to get you because we're already here and we're not even at that place yet.

[00:12:34] And so having that ability to do that was powerful.

[00:12:37] It was totally powerful.

[00:12:38] I want to keep going on that, Corey, because I think we all, you know, you came at this.

[00:12:45] What I really like is from this business perspective, but there's a lot of people that get an MBA

[00:12:52] and they don't really understand the real world.

[00:12:54] And what I love is that you use that to do the opposite of what most of us were.

[00:13:01] Most of us were like you interested in tech and you get started.

[00:13:06] And at some point I feel like you go now I can maybe start to say no.

[00:13:11] But when you get started, you know, there's that whole I'd like to eat this month thing.

[00:13:16] And so you end up taking residential, you end up taking Baffitt business clients.

[00:13:23] And then later you're going through the pain of trying to off board them and all the other

[00:13:29] things that that creates.

[00:13:30] So I think that's beautiful that you, you know, somebody poured into you or you had the wisdom

[00:13:35] to know that that was going to happen.

[00:13:39] And my question is, I think having that knowledge is half of it or a third of it or some, some

[00:13:47] percent.

[00:13:48] But then at the end of the day, you, you did have a, you know, a certain amount of capital.

[00:13:53] So like you said, maybe a year, but then every time you turn them down, there's that fear of

[00:13:59] missing out.

[00:14:00] There is that fear of, I imagine in the early days you were still burning cash.

[00:14:06] So even if you have it, you know, as a human, as another, as a tech guy that often took on

[00:14:12] the wrong business, I feel like even when, even if I had the capital, I would have been

[00:14:16] really tempted to say, well, you know, they're, they're pretty close, you know.

[00:14:22] Yeah.

[00:14:23] How did you manage to, to do that?

[00:14:26] Cause it's, it's still hard to say no, even if you have some savings in the bank.

[00:14:31] A hundred percent, a hundred percent.

[00:14:33] Right.

[00:14:33] And so one of the things, man, a very religious guy, man.

[00:14:37] So it was about faith, man.

[00:14:38] And just really trusting in where it comes from and believing and saying, here's what

[00:14:42] it looks like.

[00:14:43] I had in me that I wanted to grow and I wanted to be in a certain place.

[00:14:47] And so I knew that everything I went in there was going to be there.

[00:14:50] And so that litmus test, right.

[00:14:52] If it didn't pass the litmus test or the sniff test, then we didn't do it.

[00:14:56] Um, and you're right.

[00:14:58] There were some times like, man, I, I, I, if I just do one little thing, I can get them

[00:15:04] over there, that, that hump.

[00:15:06] Right.

[00:15:06] But in that, in that situation, a little guy showed up on my shoulder saying, no, Corey,

[00:15:10] he doesn't hit the meat.

[00:15:13] Think about it.

[00:15:13] And, and what's cool about this is that every time I said no, another door would open and

[00:15:19] the phone would ring and the right one would answer the call and say, Hey, I got this problem.

[00:15:24] And I think of myself, I'm like, man, if I'd have took that other one, I couldn't do this

[00:15:28] one.

[00:15:29] Right.

[00:15:30] There were some times where it was like, Oh my gosh, what's going on here?

[00:15:33] But I changed a truth to the game and really understand.

[00:15:36] That's why when I go into a customer and I look at the plan and I go down that path and

[00:15:40] I tell them, I say, look, this is a relationship, right?

[00:15:43] If you treat me like a contractor that you call me only when something breaks or it doesn't

[00:15:48] look like, and I'm not integrated, integral to your business, then this will not work.

[00:15:53] Right.

[00:15:54] If you're calling me when you're ready to move to your new building, after you signed

[00:15:59] the lease, this will not work.

[00:16:01] If you're, if I'm coming to you to have a meeting with you and we're asking that conversation

[00:16:06] about, Hey, how's it going with your customers?

[00:16:09] How are you acquiring customers this week?

[00:16:11] Are you growing?

[00:16:11] Are you doing this?

[00:16:12] And you're not willing to have that conversation with me now because I'm going to be in your

[00:16:15] business, but that's telling me that you're growing.

[00:16:19] You're going to be hiring.

[00:16:20] I need to be prepared for your growth.

[00:16:23] Then we're not going to work, right?

[00:16:25] If we're not pouring into each other to support and grow with each other, either you're going

[00:16:30] to be dissatisfied or you're going to think that I've grown too big and you're just too

[00:16:35] small and you don't matter anymore.

[00:16:38] That's both of those are wrong.

[00:16:40] Right.

[00:16:40] So we have to be able to have those conversations.

[00:16:43] So now I have customers who are doing EOS and who are doing everything.

[00:16:47] We are part of their level tens.

[00:16:48] We are part of their rocks.

[00:16:50] We are part of those conversations to make sure that we're there.

[00:16:53] We're at the table talking about their three, four, five year plan.

[00:16:57] I'm presenting in their meetings about their IT strategy and where they want to go.

[00:17:02] And we're talking to those guys.

[00:17:03] That's when it works because if I was your IT director on staff, I'd be there.

[00:17:08] There's no difference that I'm not there in there now.

[00:17:11] Right.

[00:17:11] And so having those conversations and going down that path and really being upfront of,

[00:17:17] Corey, if I hire you, how will this work?

[00:17:19] Well, if you hire me, it's just like I got an office down the hall.

[00:17:24] Unfortunately, it's down the road.

[00:17:26] But you got to sit down and say, hey, I'm thinking about this.

[00:17:29] Let's run this by our IT guys.

[00:17:31] Hey, I'm thinking about selling.

[00:17:33] Great.

[00:17:33] Have you done an IT due diligence on the new company or the company doing one on you?

[00:17:37] Hey, I'm thinking about getting X.

[00:17:39] Well, if I'm not in the front of that conversation and I'm an afterthought, then this is not going to work.

[00:17:44] Right.

[00:17:44] It's just not going to work.

[00:17:45] And so I really want to be in your business.

[00:17:50] Literally and figuratively in your business so that I can make sure that we are not the people who are causing you that delay.

[00:18:00] Right.

[00:18:00] I don't I don't need the IT tail wagging the business dog.

[00:18:04] I want to be lockstep with you and working on that path.

[00:18:07] And that's that's when the relationships really work is saying, hey, I'm thinking about a new computer.

[00:18:13] Great.

[00:18:14] Let's let's call Corey and see what this looks like.

[00:18:16] Where are we at on the reflex?

[00:18:17] That's the conversation that we need to have and working on that path.

[00:18:21] So those work.

[00:18:23] And that's what makes it very cool for us is that when we have those relationships, it's really simple at that point because they trust us to be in that manner.

[00:18:33] But then they also, you know, hey, we have that rapport and that going back and forth to what works doesn't work.

[00:18:39] But we're able to help them grow and succeed.

[00:18:41] What's really cool about that as well is we take what we do and we teach them how to use their IT superpower in part of their marketing and their grant writing.

[00:18:52] We support a lot of nonprofits and small businesses and say, here's all the things that we've done to secure ourselves because we have 5K.

[00:19:00] And this is what I can add to the grant and say, this is how we preserve your privacy and your data.

[00:19:05] And this is the extra stuff that we're doing.

[00:19:07] So now, even though we know we're costs, we're giving them tangible assets, which is real of how they're differentiating themselves from the next person.

[00:19:16] Right.

[00:19:17] Which is really cool.

[00:19:18] And again, taking what I've learned over time and say, hey, don't look at us as, oh, my God, I got Corey at check.

[00:19:25] Let's look at how I can go out there and say, yeah, we're an awesome personal injury lawyer.

[00:19:31] But we're a personal injury lawyer that takes your data security and your privacy to a next level.

[00:19:36] And we do that by this.

[00:19:39] Right.

[00:19:40] And all they did was cosign and say, here's all the stuff that we're proud of having an IT partner like you.

[00:19:45] Right.

[00:19:46] That's cool stuff right there.

[00:19:47] That is really cool.

[00:19:48] It's really cool stuff.

[00:19:49] Yeah.

[00:19:49] It's so core and it's so easy to miss.

[00:19:52] I think what I, when I, at my MSP, I was so busy and so kind of, for lack of a better way, rushing around.

[00:20:01] And I felt like I was trying to serve too many people.

[00:20:06] No doubt.

[00:20:07] Depth.

[00:20:09] So I really appreciate how you bring it back to that.

[00:20:13] How, what were your filters in the beginning and how they evolved?

[00:20:17] Because I'm curious how you had this vision and how you knew to filter and at what level when you started.

[00:20:24] It was, you know, really sitting back and, you know, I was talking about, you know, here in Dallas, right?

[00:20:30] Back in 2006, man, there was this group out there called MSP University.

[00:20:34] You probably remember, right?

[00:20:35] It was the Eric Simpsons.

[00:20:36] It was the Rob Rays.

[00:20:38] It was the Karl Palachuk, the Manuel Palachuk.

[00:20:41] It was all the guys, right?

[00:20:42] I called them the O-heads.

[00:20:43] So now when I see them, they're like, hey, man, you an O-head too.

[00:20:47] I'm part of the O-head crew, right?

[00:20:49] Like, oh my gosh.

[00:20:51] But what was cool is I sit back and watch, you know, the Michael Gerbers, right?

[00:20:55] All those guys, right?

[00:20:56] And say, hey, man, I learned and read and just consumed that information and said, man, let's figure out how to do it.

[00:21:02] And took a little bit of here, a little bit of there, a little bit of here and said, here's what that ultimately would look like if I wanted to go out here and do that.

[00:21:08] And I asked a lot of questions, man.

[00:21:09] Hey, Eric, man, what about this?

[00:21:11] And he's like, yeah, this is what you do.

[00:21:12] This is how you do that.

[00:21:13] Hey, you got to have this.

[00:21:13] And he says, one of them asked me a question.

[00:21:17] He says, do you believe that you're in business to grow and to be successful and to have a client base, whatever it is?

[00:21:24] He says, great.

[00:21:25] If that's your case, then you should consistently live with that expectation that you're going to hit those goals.

[00:21:32] Right?

[00:21:32] And I was like, OK, if I believe I'm going to grow.

[00:21:36] So they said, go ahead and invest in the PSA and the RMM tools and the tools and the stack that's going to get you to that point.

[00:21:43] Because you're knowing that you're going to be successful and then you want to go down that route.

[00:21:49] So position yourself in that place of where you're already going.

[00:21:53] Kind of foresee that.

[00:21:54] Right?

[00:21:54] And that was really cool because, you know, when you're small and you're doing this, man, I got to go invest in a PSA.

[00:22:00] Yeah, I got to do an RMM.

[00:22:02] You know, I got to do this.

[00:22:03] I can do this on spreadsheets.

[00:22:05] I'll make this an email.

[00:22:06] I mean, you find all the ways to cut money.

[00:22:08] Yeah.

[00:22:08] But what was cool is where that business side came in is that I had to have expenses.

[00:22:13] I had to have some certain things to gauge to go and say, this is a cost of doing business.

[00:22:19] Right?

[00:22:19] And once I understood that this is the cost of doing business, I understand those costs were there.

[00:22:24] So I couldn't hide them because a lot of times you forget about those costs.

[00:22:28] And when they show up later, you're like, oh, I didn't account for those.

[00:22:30] Where did it come from?

[00:22:32] How do you go down there and do that path?

[00:22:34] And so I kind of knew that.

[00:22:35] So I hung out with those guys and asked a lot of questions.

[00:22:37] I was not the shy guy in the room.

[00:22:39] Like, how are you doing that?

[00:22:40] How did you do that?

[00:22:41] Let's figure that out.

[00:22:42] And let's go down that path and let's have some conversation.

[00:22:45] And then I also looked across the aisle to other business groups and said, how is the ice cream shop down the street doing marketing?

[00:22:53] And how did other guys who are doing B2B marketing?

[00:22:56] Because what I also figured out, even now, for some reason, we as MSPs think that we're unique in how we do business.

[00:23:03] Right?

[00:23:03] Right.

[00:23:03] We can't go in to do a chat bot because everybody else does.

[00:23:08] We can't do that.

[00:23:09] Right.

[00:23:10] I can't offshore and outsource my IT.

[00:23:12] I can't do that.

[00:23:13] Right?

[00:23:14] My customers will leave me.

[00:23:16] They don't understand that.

[00:23:17] But they're outsourcing and doing the same thing.

[00:23:19] It's like, hold up.

[00:23:20] This doesn't make any sense.

[00:23:22] We're trying to get our customers to outsource their core business, but we won't outsource anything.

[00:23:28] Right?

[00:23:29] You know, it doesn't work.

[00:23:31] Right?

[00:23:31] He's like, hmm, I do my own account and I'm not getting a CPA.

[00:23:36] Oh, I can do taxes too.

[00:23:38] I can do that.

[00:23:39] Oh, I can be my own service coordinator.

[00:23:41] I don't need to be that.

[00:23:42] But hold up.

[00:23:43] But we're begging the customer about, you know, you save money and time and you're getting what you need to do to outsource your IT.

[00:23:49] But guess what?

[00:23:49] I am not going to do any of that.

[00:23:53] Right.

[00:23:54] So I had to learn that.

[00:23:56] Right?

[00:23:56] And that's the key piece is that we're not unique.

[00:23:59] Our customers are accepting.

[00:24:00] We have to get on that train and do some of the things that we are doing as well.

[00:24:05] Because, again, that's just something that has to be done.

[00:24:08] And it's scary because you're right.

[00:24:10] Everybody's not doing, ah, never outsource my stuff.

[00:24:12] I got to have that hand touch IT stuff.

[00:24:16] Okay?

[00:24:16] But you call my, one of my biggest attorney clients, all of her paralegal stuff has been pushed offshore.

[00:24:24] So, but I'm telling her, hey, you need personal touch.

[00:24:27] Hand to hand.

[00:24:28] Right.

[00:24:28] That's what I want to get done.

[00:24:29] She's like, yeah, but all my stuff is in South Africa.

[00:24:31] What's the problem?

[00:24:36] She's like, you should do the same thing, Corey.

[00:24:37] I was like, ding.

[00:24:39] What happened?

[00:24:39] I almost had a VA, right?

[00:24:43] Yeah.

[00:24:45] Yeah.

[00:24:46] I think it's really cool to look outside of yourself and outside of our own industry.

[00:24:50] Right?

[00:24:51] Yeah.

[00:24:52] There's, as part of the reason I interview a lot of authors that aren't MSPs, just to say,

[00:24:57] hey, let's take a fresh look.

[00:24:59] There's other industries that can teach us things.

[00:25:03] 100%.

[00:25:04] Yeah.

[00:25:04] Offshoring.

[00:25:05] I think still even, even, ironically, even remote work.

[00:25:11] You know, there's this thing that like, no, no, no, that my client should do that, but I shouldn't or I couldn't.

[00:25:16] I mean, peer groups, right?

[00:25:18] They call them masterminds.

[00:25:19] We call them peer groups, man.

[00:25:20] You know, a good friend of mine who stalked me for a long time.

[00:25:24] We were friends.

[00:25:25] He does a peer group and we were sitting in the airport and he said, you know why you don't join a peer group, Corey, right?

[00:25:31] He says, why?

[00:25:31] He says, because you don't want to be open.

[00:25:36] You don't want to reveal yourself.

[00:25:38] You don't want to be out there.

[00:25:39] And I was like, man, I already don't like you right now.

[00:25:45] He said, you calling me out, right?

[00:25:46] So exactly what it was is that I did, I didn't want, I didn't want to show and expose because I was like, hey, I know what I'm doing, right?

[00:25:53] I wouldn't be doing here.

[00:25:54] But then the best thing has ever happened to me is they get in there and have a board of directors and other MSPs who are going through it.

[00:26:02] And people ask me, what's your peer group like?

[00:26:04] I say, man, peer group is like going to church, man.

[00:26:06] And one of us is just going into it, coming out of it, about to go into it, still in it, miserable.

[00:26:15] But we're all there to cry and hold it.

[00:26:17] That's my therapy session, right?

[00:26:18] I got to have that, right?

[00:26:19] I need that in my life.

[00:26:21] I need it in my life.

[00:26:22] Because if not, man, I don't know about you when you run your MSP, but none of my employees come in my office and be like, you know what, Corey?

[00:26:28] You're the best CEO in the world.

[00:26:29] I'm going to take care of everything today.

[00:26:31] I'm going to take care of payroll.

[00:26:32] I'm going to go sell this client right now.

[00:26:34] Guess what?

[00:26:34] I bought 10 new clients today.

[00:26:35] I'm going to go close them all for you.

[00:26:38] No.

[00:26:40] No.

[00:26:40] No, we're going to have to.

[00:26:42] I was like, so it gets lonely at the top, right?

[00:26:45] You know, I have a good friend of mine.

[00:26:47] She says, you know, hey, what's the deal?

[00:26:48] And I say, look, I said, being an MSP owner sometimes is like being the lion.

[00:26:53] He goes, what do you mean?

[00:26:54] He says, people need you, but they're scared of you.

[00:26:58] I said, I never see the gazelle walk up to the line and say, hey, Mr. Lion, how can I help you today?

[00:27:02] He said, no, because he's scared somebody's going to eat you or he's going to get you.

[00:27:05] I said, but you got to surround yourself with those lionesses, right?

[00:27:09] They take care of that guy, right?

[00:27:11] And you build yourself around and protecting you, making sure you want to get done.

[00:27:15] And what they'll find out is that lion is really a gentle giant, man, and really there to protect and do things.

[00:27:22] And you got to be around other lions to really understand that piece.

[00:27:26] And those where the peer group comes around, man, is because we're all lions.

[00:27:29] We all sit there, but we get around together, man.

[00:27:32] It's probably like a bunch of big babies, man.

[00:27:33] Oh, my gosh.

[00:27:35] What's going on?

[00:27:37] Yeah.

[00:27:39] Your growl ain't as big as you thought it was, huh?

[00:27:41] I was like, no, it wasn't.

[00:27:43] Yeah, that's right.

[00:27:44] Yeah.

[00:27:45] Yeah.

[00:27:45] Yeah, I think there's – I know when I joined peer group, there was a lot of those, right?

[00:27:50] First of all, it had to be open, like you said.

[00:27:52] Second of all, your team won't tell you things.

[00:27:57] No.

[00:27:58] They tell you some things, but they won't tell you everything because they're an employee.

[00:28:02] Like they're not going to tell you you're messing up.

[00:28:05] The strategy sucks.

[00:28:06] The new thing you're doing is wrong.

[00:28:08] You're, you know, but your peers, you know.

[00:28:11] They'll tell you.

[00:28:12] They'll tell you.

[00:28:13] You're a baby ugly, man.

[00:28:14] They said, man, Corey, you know what?

[00:28:15] You're a really cool guy, but your baby's ugly and his head is big.

[00:28:18] And he, you know, he got a face only your daddy would love.

[00:28:24] I'm like, oh, my gosh.

[00:28:25] What's going on?

[00:28:27] But you need that, right?

[00:28:28] Your employee's like, yeah, man, it's a beautiful kid.

[00:28:30] Oh, my God.

[00:28:30] That's an ugly baby.

[00:28:31] I ain't going to tell you, Corey.

[00:28:32] But, you know, it's what it is.

[00:28:33] You need the truth.

[00:28:35] You're 100% correct.

[00:28:36] You're 100% correct.

[00:28:37] Yeah.

[00:28:38] Speaking of metaphors, I feel like sometimes as MSPs we get stuck.

[00:28:43] And we won't go to a peer group.

[00:28:45] And it's like saying I'm the first person to have a kid.

[00:28:48] Yeah.

[00:28:49] And I'm just going to figure it all out.

[00:28:51] And you're like, that's a tough road.

[00:28:53] Like, you need other parents.

[00:28:54] You need your parents.

[00:28:55] You need other parents.

[00:28:56] You need others.

[00:28:57] So you can say, well, my kid comes to me with this.

[00:29:00] What am I supposed to do about this?

[00:29:02] Yes.

[00:29:03] It's kind of, I feel like, similar as an MSP.

[00:29:06] Like, we're all going to hit some of the same rough patches.

[00:29:10] Yes.

[00:29:11] The more I know, the more I know some people, they can tell me what I'm about to go through.

[00:29:15] Oh, for sure.

[00:29:16] Oh, no doubt.

[00:29:17] They can foresee it and tell it, man.

[00:29:20] And I was like, yeah, that's what you need is they've got your best interest in heart and mind.

[00:29:26] And they hold you accountable, right?

[00:29:27] And that's the key piece that needs that accountability as well.

[00:29:30] Hey, Corey, you said you was going to do this and I'm scared to go to the peer group meeting, man.

[00:29:36] Like, oh, my God, they didn't do it.

[00:29:37] They're going to get on me.

[00:29:39] They got me like terrified.

[00:29:40] Oh, my gosh.

[00:29:42] How am I going to tell them I didn't do this?

[00:29:44] But, you know, that accountability piece is good.

[00:29:46] We laugh together.

[00:29:47] We celebrate together.

[00:29:48] We do a whole lot of cool stuff together.

[00:29:50] And, you know, we really look forward to that therapy session and where it goes through, man.

[00:29:55] We become very close.

[00:29:56] And at the end of the day, we're all driving our businesses to the next level.

[00:30:01] We're there to support one another, man.

[00:30:03] And that's what it's all about.

[00:30:05] It's truly a therapy session.

[00:30:07] And I encourage all MSPs, you know, big, small, one-man band, 30,000 people, however many you are, is that you got to have somebody holding you accountable.

[00:30:18] You got to have somebody outside of your organization looking in that's going to give you some good advice for your best interest to continue to grow.

[00:30:26] And, you know, sometimes it's like, yeah, I may be looking at employee situations and where it is.

[00:30:30] And, like, Corey, that's not an employee situation.

[00:30:32] That's a cultural situation you need to go and address.

[00:30:34] Like, oh, man, I didn't think about it like that.

[00:30:36] Hey, that's not what it is.

[00:30:37] You need to do this.

[00:30:38] And it's like, okay, I need that.

[00:30:41] And so it was really cool stuff to make happen from that perspective.

[00:30:46] What's a peer group you would recommend?

[00:30:49] So currently right now I participate in MSP Ignite with Steve and the crew.

[00:30:55] Very good group, man.

[00:30:57] You know, it works it through.

[00:30:59] We focus on financials.

[00:31:01] We focus on everything.

[00:31:03] Secure outcomes on how you're getting yourself in order.

[00:31:05] But, yeah, really good group of guys to go work through that piece.

[00:31:09] Yeah.

[00:31:09] It's always good when you, I think, when you have to expose your financials.

[00:31:13] You've got to lay it out there.

[00:31:14] You can't hide.

[00:31:15] You can't say.

[00:31:17] You can't show up and be like, I had a good quarter.

[00:31:21] No, we put our numbers up there, man.

[00:31:23] And they pick it out.

[00:31:25] And they're like, well, what happened here?

[00:31:26] We're like, oh.

[00:31:28] You've got to know it.

[00:31:29] And it forces you as the owner.

[00:31:31] Because, you know, you made something, a point earlier in the conversation was,

[00:31:35] most MSPs start from turning the wrench and being technical on that side.

[00:31:39] The business side doesn't come first.

[00:31:41] And the financial side is what really, really gets you.

[00:31:44] It's like, hey, as long as I, you know, if I'm charging $20 to go do something,

[00:31:49] it only costs me $10.

[00:31:50] Hey, I made $10.

[00:31:51] Woo-hoo, I'm good.

[00:31:52] But I forgot about all the other costs.

[00:31:54] I'm like, oh, my gosh, what happened there?

[00:31:57] And then, you know, it's really cool to really get a good understanding of what that looks like.

[00:32:01] Knowing where you are.

[00:32:03] Knowing where you fit.

[00:32:04] And knowing when the rainy days and the storms are coming can really handle.

[00:32:10] Cash flow is real.

[00:32:12] Absolutely.

[00:32:13] Cash flow is a real deal, man.

[00:32:15] It's a beast.

[00:32:17] You either love it or you hate it.

[00:32:18] But, you know, we want to make sure it's working for you.

[00:32:21] Why do so many of us in the industry, I feel like, obsess over?

[00:32:25] You mentioned, you know, it is a big investment to your PSA, to your arm and your first,

[00:32:29] getting your first set of tooling around.

[00:32:31] But I feel like whether it's that or the back of a DR or whatever it is,

[00:32:35] I feel like it's easy to obsess over those costs.

[00:32:39] Because, you know, those are maybe a direct per unit cost, right, per seat cost.

[00:32:43] But then I feel like we miss the labor costs.

[00:32:49] Yeah.

[00:32:50] Yeah.

[00:32:51] Yeah.

[00:32:51] You know, one of the things I had early on, man, we used to call it our fully burdened

[00:32:55] labor rate spreadsheet, right?

[00:32:58] And when you didn't understand what that was and how that really worked, what your true

[00:33:03] costs have been, right, all in, you're always missing it, right?

[00:33:08] If you don't know that piece, you're all in.

[00:33:11] And so once we figure out, we call it our break-even point, right?

[00:33:15] So it's when our managed services and our MRR is really supporting the business.

[00:33:20] It's 100%, right?

[00:33:21] You're running your business based off your monthly recurring contracts or everything.

[00:33:25] That's the nirvana, right?

[00:33:26] It's where you want to be.

[00:33:27] And everything after that is all gravy, right?

[00:33:30] And so if it wasn't for the old heads, the old Gs out there that really taught that and

[00:33:36] really understood what that looked like to say, here's what that is and what that gets down

[00:33:41] to, I probably wouldn't be sitting here from that perspective to say, hey, here's what

[00:33:47] that looked like.

[00:33:47] The true cost of one of my guys or two of my guys or three of my guys costs to go out there

[00:33:53] and do that.

[00:33:55] And understand that here's where I need to be from an MRR to do that before I hire somebody.

[00:34:00] Does that address where it comes from?

[00:34:03] Is that going to be someone who's different from hiring someone who's in sales versus someone

[00:34:07] who's in support or someone who's an admin, right?

[00:34:11] What does that look like?

[00:34:13] And so having a true understanding of what that looked like was just pivotal, right?

[00:34:19] And not everybody gets that, right?

[00:34:22] They come in, they use what I call personal finance accounting to run their business.

[00:34:28] Not bad.

[00:34:29] It just don't work in the business world.

[00:34:32] You know, it just doesn't work.

[00:34:34] There's a whole lot of extra stuff in the background that you have.

[00:34:38] Explain that part, the personal finance business part where it's a fully burdened labor.

[00:34:43] Yeah.

[00:34:44] So again, it thinks about it as, hey, if I make 50 bucks and technically on some piece of

[00:34:53] navigation says it only cost me 20 bucks to do it.

[00:34:55] So technically, theoretically, I should have made $30.

[00:34:58] Well, but after I go and look at time, labor costs, electricity, time on my computer and

[00:35:04] all that good stuff, I probably lost $100, right?

[00:35:08] I didn't understand that.

[00:35:09] I didn't understand what that was.

[00:35:10] And it's that same conversation that we have with our customers is that if I don't understand

[00:35:14] the business side and I go to a doctor who can bill at $450 an hour because he's a plastic

[00:35:19] surgeon and he thinks it's better for him to patch his own machine and run a wire across

[00:35:26] his office, it doesn't work.

[00:35:28] Yeah.

[00:35:29] Right?

[00:35:30] I'd rather, he's blowing cash out the door for every hour that he's spending where he

[00:35:35] could have spent on me.

[00:35:37] $450 versus my 125, he wins all day.

[00:35:40] Yeah.

[00:35:41] But if I can't have that conversation because I don't know it myself, then he's never going

[00:35:46] to, I'm a smart guy.

[00:35:47] I can do that.

[00:35:48] But I'm like, yeah, but think about it.

[00:35:50] If you take the average of the cost of you doing it and you're doing this three times a

[00:35:54] week at whatever it is, dude, this is really a no brainer for you to outsource your stuff,

[00:36:00] right?

[00:36:01] But if I don't know my cost and where it comes from and have that same business conversation,

[00:36:06] business owner to business owner, it doesn't make any sense.

[00:36:09] It's the same thing, right?

[00:36:11] I cannot run my business, be my marketer, be my accountant, be my CPA, be all that good

[00:36:18] stuff and say, hey, I'm a big, no, it doesn't work.

[00:36:22] So part of that is, is that I can, being an engineer coming from IBM, they also taught

[00:36:29] me something called the RACI model, right?

[00:36:31] Who was responsible and what did I need to get done?

[00:36:34] So I can be responsible and have accountability for it, but I don't have to do it.

[00:36:39] I need to know who I need to tell about it and who I need to inform about it.

[00:36:42] And so what I learned a long time ago is that, hey, someone has a full responsibility for

[00:36:47] it and some people is accountable for it.

[00:36:49] Some people I confer to and some people I just need to inform.

[00:36:53] So if I'm responsible for it, that means I'm responsible for it to be completed, but I

[00:36:58] don't necessarily have to be the doer.

[00:37:00] Right.

[00:37:02] So, so great.

[00:37:03] I'm responsible for financial, for my financial stability of my company, but do I need to

[00:37:08] be the CPA and the accountant?

[00:37:09] No, but I do need to trust, but verify that they did what they need to get done to make

[00:37:14] sure I got numbers and payroll and everything else needed to get done.

[00:37:18] Once you understand that piece and say, all right, I get that piece.

[00:37:21] So now I got to go down that path and say, hey, how do I go and install that back?

[00:37:25] And that means that I had to get out of the way.

[00:37:26] And then a lot of us say it's a cost, right?

[00:37:29] Man, it, man.

[00:37:30] Yeah, I can do that myself.

[00:37:32] Right.

[00:37:33] One of the things we do, if I go get a new computer in my company, I will say, hey, I

[00:37:37] need a new Mac.

[00:37:38] It goes through the process of acquiring it, getting it through.

[00:37:41] My guys go set it up, bring it back to me and bring it in and say, hey, Corey, here's

[00:37:43] your new laptop.

[00:37:45] Just need to sign in and go.

[00:37:46] Well, most IT guys like, hey, I went and got my Mac.

[00:37:49] I set it up.

[00:37:50] I put my own RMM tool.

[00:37:51] I hold up all my stuff.

[00:37:52] I did what I got to get done.

[00:37:55] Oh, yeah.

[00:37:55] By the way, I missed three sales appointments and I did not go get that customer.

[00:38:00] But I saved myself all that money.

[00:38:02] No, you did.

[00:38:03] And you lost, dude.

[00:38:04] You lost big time.

[00:38:07] So those are pieces that you got to go down that path and say, how do I change my mentality

[00:38:11] and change that piece?

[00:38:12] Right.

[00:38:13] And it's the same thing we preach to our customers, but we're probably, you know, do

[00:38:16] as I say, not as I do.

[00:38:17] Right.

[00:38:18] Right.

[00:38:19] Right.

[00:38:19] Yeah.

[00:38:20] Yeah.

[00:38:21] I think even, I don't know, it took a long time for me to realize I can't, you know, when

[00:38:28] I'm thinking about the labor cost, you're not going to get 40 billable hours a week.

[00:38:33] Yeah.

[00:38:33] You know, not without burning yourself out, not without working overtime.

[00:38:36] Yeah.

[00:38:37] And then especially it took me even longer to apply that to myself.

[00:38:41] Right.

[00:38:41] It does.

[00:38:42] It does.

[00:38:43] Because it's a complete mind shift away from what it is.

[00:38:48] You believe for whatever, you're free.

[00:38:50] Like, hey, man, I do it.

[00:38:51] It don't cost me nothing.

[00:38:52] Right.

[00:38:53] Yes, it does.

[00:38:54] It costs you a lot.

[00:38:55] Yeah.

[00:38:56] But you have to understand.

[00:38:57] And part of that reason, you know, as part of the MBAs, you know, I love learning a business

[00:39:01] and things.

[00:39:02] So I went through the SBA Emerging Leaders and I went to the Goldman Sachs SB10K, which

[00:39:07] really taught me how to focus on the business, not in the business.

[00:39:12] Right.

[00:39:13] And what I really loved about that program was, is it took me over nine months, but they

[00:39:18] took me deliberately out of the business and away.

[00:39:22] I had to go on site.

[00:39:23] I was away.

[00:39:24] And man, that freaked me out.

[00:39:25] I was like, oh my gosh, is it going to survive while I'm not here?

[00:39:28] And guess what?

[00:39:29] It did.

[00:39:31] And what it taught me was, and the magical thing was, it was like this aha moment.

[00:39:36] It goes, so if you could not leave your business, then you don't have a business.

[00:39:42] Yes.

[00:39:43] And I go, wow.

[00:39:45] And say, and guess what?

[00:39:46] You've graduated.

[00:39:47] And guess what, Corey?

[00:39:48] You have not been in the business for nine months.

[00:39:54] Oh my gosh.

[00:39:55] And it changed the whole mentality.

[00:39:57] But it was the whole thing.

[00:39:57] It was kind of that Jedi mind trick.

[00:39:59] What happened?

[00:40:01] But what was cool is that those aha moments was, is that, you know, if you are, if you

[00:40:05] have to be in the business daily, then you don't have a business.

[00:40:09] You are the business.

[00:40:11] And if anybody wants to buy it, acquire it, or do anything else, they basically are acquiring

[00:40:15] you.

[00:40:17] And you're going to go get a job.

[00:40:19] Yeah.

[00:40:19] And so those are the conversations that, that was key, but it was getting, I didn't go get

[00:40:25] another technical degree.

[00:40:27] I went, went to business school because it was formed by, you know, Babson College, right?

[00:40:30] It's one of the best business schools, right?

[00:40:33] Formed by, you know, Harvard Business College, right?

[00:40:35] All those things are out there.

[00:40:36] So it was getting an MBA, another MBA in nine months.

[00:40:39] But it was really cool because it hits you in that perspective.

[00:40:42] They brought in financials and lenders and all these people that came in and really worked

[00:40:46] your business over marketing, sales and all kinds of stuff.

[00:40:50] And it's like, that was pretty cool.

[00:40:51] So always learning from this.

[00:40:52] So it's not just the technical side of becoming the next MC certified expert.

[00:40:58] It's really learning the business side.

[00:40:59] And that's what changed the game for me as well as continue to, to nurture that piece.

[00:41:04] Now I can sit down and have that true CEO, CXO, CMO conversation about business, not the

[00:41:14] technical side, right?

[00:41:15] The only person on the technical side is, is the IT director we run into, or there's somebody

[00:41:20] who wants to geek out a little bit and challenge you.

[00:41:23] But the bottom line is, let me show you how we're here to help your business grow, to help

[00:41:28] you reach your goals.

[00:41:30] So what are your goals, Mr. Customer?

[00:41:33] What are you talking about?

[00:41:34] Well, we ain't going to never get nowhere because I'm telling you about all the IT goals and

[00:41:38] you don't have business goals.

[00:41:39] So if your business goals are not in here, there's no way you're going to pay for the

[00:41:42] IT, right?

[00:41:43] It's not going to happen.

[00:41:45] Unless you just say a really good guy and say, you know what?

[00:41:46] I love you, Corey, so much.

[00:41:47] I'm going to go take out all these loans to support you.

[00:41:50] Great.

[00:41:51] But that's not reality, right?

[00:41:53] So if you don't have business goals and culture and things like that, how do we know

[00:41:57] we're a good fit, right?

[00:41:57] So you got to do a lot of dating and say, hey, how do you fit?

[00:42:01] And say, tell me what your business goals are.

[00:42:03] What do you see yourself in three to five years?

[00:42:05] Because that's what it's telling you is, are they building up to be acquired?

[00:42:10] Did I have to change and have to figure out this?

[00:42:12] Are they growing to acquire customers?

[00:42:15] Are they looking to double in the next three to four years?

[00:42:17] Because it's helping me set my business strategy of how much time and effort I put to

[00:42:21] them.

[00:42:21] And if they're telling me, hey, we're very aggressive, we're going to grow by 10% over

[00:42:25] this, paying to hire XYZ employee.

[00:42:27] What they're telling me is, Corey, you're going to grow by 10 to 25% and hire for more

[00:42:32] coverage, whatever.

[00:42:33] But they go, uh, I don't know what you got.

[00:42:38] So then there's no way I can establish an IT goal to a company that don't have true

[00:42:42] established business goals.

[00:42:43] It just won't happen.

[00:42:44] It just will not happen.

[00:42:45] That's right.

[00:42:46] So that's why those important conversations have to happen up front.

[00:42:48] What was, do you feel like this mindset shift can happen really at any scale or size?

[00:42:56] Or do you feel like it was kind of dovetailed with, oh, once I started to hire some leadership

[00:43:01] team, then I realized I could step outside of the business.

[00:43:06] When did that happen for you?

[00:43:08] Man, I believe that it can happen at any given time, right?

[00:43:12] It's not about hiring the leadership goal because a lot of us, I mean, most of the MSPs that

[00:43:17] are out there are sub one million, right?

[00:43:20] That's the majority of, right?

[00:43:21] Hitting that one million mark is a hard thing to hit.

[00:43:23] Hitting the one to three is a hard three to five.

[00:43:26] It gets even harder.

[00:43:27] And that's when you're stern.

[00:43:28] So you got to look at, I love, I've always go back to the operational maturity model from

[00:43:32] service leadership, right?

[00:43:33] Is where do I want to go and what I want to get through?

[00:43:36] So you always have to be thinking about where you want to grow and where you want to be

[00:43:39] when you grow up, right?

[00:43:42] But you always got to go back to that racing model is that I may not have that goal, but

[00:43:48] I always had an org chart of where I wanted to be.

[00:43:51] Even if my name was in there one or two goals, my goal was is that as I grow, how do I get

[00:43:56] my name out of that box?

[00:43:57] Mm-hmm.

[00:43:58] But what that did was that said that just because nobody's in that seat yet, that's an

[00:44:03] important role that needs to be paid attention to so the ball doesn't drop.

[00:44:09] So if my goal is saying, hey, I need a service director, well, that's great.

[00:44:14] But if I don't have an IT person or a help desk person, why would I get a service director?

[00:44:20] I need to go figure out.

[00:44:21] Maybe my next goal is an assistant.

[00:44:23] I need to go figure out who's got the work going.

[00:44:26] Mm-hmm.

[00:44:27] Then I can go ahead and put some seats in that box.

[00:44:28] But that was driving my growth.

[00:44:30] It's like, hey, I need to hire an assistant.

[00:44:32] Well, in order to hire an assistant, I need to get this.

[00:44:35] Okay, go out there and hit those goals.

[00:44:37] Now you're starting to build it out.

[00:44:38] But I think that mind shift has to be early.

[00:44:42] I say hit up your local SBDCs and your SCORE organization, people who are ex-CEOs, CFOs,

[00:44:48] who are mentoring small businesses, and let them have that bigger, grandiose, pie-in-the-sky

[00:44:54] conversation with you.

[00:44:55] Mm-hmm.

[00:44:56] Because this is free, right?

[00:44:58] They do this and just say, hey, let me just sit down and talk about where I want to go

[00:45:02] as a business and have those conversations about, hey, when I talk to other MSPs that

[00:45:08] are small, I say, well, tell me what kind of business you want.

[00:45:10] Are you going to be in a lifestyle business?

[00:45:13] Do you want this to acquire and give it to your kids later on?

[00:45:16] Do you want to just hang out and you're going to hold on to it forever?

[00:45:20] Or are you looking for somebody to buy you?

[00:45:22] Because depending on how you answer that, it's depending on where your goals are going

[00:45:26] to be.

[00:45:27] Mm-hmm.

[00:45:27] If it's a lifestyle business and, hey, it allows me to drive the car and live in the

[00:45:31] house I want with three or four customers, so be it.

[00:45:34] It can do that.

[00:45:35] Mm-hmm.

[00:45:35] If it's something I want to have as a legacy to give to my kids or whatever it is, I mean,

[00:45:38] I have a strong process, strong whatever it is, build a legacy in there and go down

[00:45:43] that path and go down there.

[00:45:44] Very different business model.

[00:45:45] Hey, if there's something I know I want to grow real fast and get rid of, very different

[00:45:50] business model.

[00:45:50] You know your numbers, right?

[00:45:51] What EBITDA is and what all the rest of that stuff is, right?

[00:45:55] If I'm a lifestyle business, I can care less about EBITDA, right?

[00:45:57] Hey, long as he's paying my rent, I'm good.

[00:45:59] Okay.

[00:46:02] Right?

[00:46:03] So having those conversations about where you want to be when you grow up and being around

[00:46:08] other MSPs who have those conversations.

[00:46:11] And I'm saying that every MSP out there or everybody out there has your best interests

[00:46:16] in mind.

[00:46:16] So you have to pick and choose your relationships wisely.

[00:46:20] But having those conversations so you do know, hey, man, I got a lifestyle business.

[00:46:24] Is something wrong with that?

[00:46:25] No.

[00:46:26] It does what I wanted to get done.

[00:46:27] I don't ever want to work with somebody else.

[00:46:29] And as long as I maintain these five clients at this much money a month, I can live the

[00:46:33] lifestyle I want.

[00:46:34] Hey, man.

[00:46:35] Works.

[00:46:35] Have it.

[00:46:37] So same conversation is being able to do that.

[00:46:39] But I think at any level, you should be thinking about what you want to do and where you want

[00:46:43] to do.

[00:46:43] But you got to kind of figure out, hey, what do I want to do with this thing as I grow

[00:46:48] up?

[00:46:48] Because if I want to be a lifestyle, then I don't care about M&A out there.

[00:46:52] I don't care about all the other stuff out there.

[00:46:54] I don't care about it.

[00:46:55] I got my clients.

[00:46:57] I maintain my relationship.

[00:46:58] I'm good.

[00:47:00] But if I am looking at something bigger than that, yeah, now I need to understand what

[00:47:03] does the M&A look for?

[00:47:05] What is an EBITDA?

[00:47:07] What is bottom line?

[00:47:09] What is top line revenue?

[00:47:10] What does that look like?

[00:47:12] Totally different conversation, right?

[00:47:15] So I think you just got to figure that out.

[00:47:16] And the only way you got to figure it out is you got to go talk to others and say, what

[00:47:20] are you doing?

[00:47:21] How are you doing?

[00:47:22] How did you get to where you are?

[00:47:24] And those who care will share.

[00:47:27] Those who don't, won't.

[00:47:29] So what's your answer to that one?

[00:47:31] What's your focus, Corey?

[00:47:32] Right.

[00:47:35] So long term, man, is for me, man, my kids have no desire to hold a business.

[00:47:39] So legacy business is not there.

[00:47:41] They like IT stuff?

[00:47:42] Heck no.

[00:47:43] I just call them a dad, right?

[00:47:44] They don't want no part.

[00:47:46] Eventually, man, they get to a point, man, probably will shed it to give it to somebody who cares

[00:47:51] about our customers, have the same mentality.

[00:47:52] But for right now, it's fun.

[00:47:55] I enjoy what I'm doing.

[00:47:56] So I have no short term goals from that perspective.

[00:47:59] I just enjoy taking care of my customers I have right now, educating back, and ultimately,

[00:48:05] man, probably getting more on the consulting side and just having those conversations.

[00:48:08] But for right now, it's still kind of fun.

[00:48:12] So acquisition, sell it, pay up more.

[00:48:15] You know, it's kind of up in the air.

[00:48:16] But I do spend a lot of time working on numbers, financials, what that looks like to always know

[00:48:21] what my options are.

[00:48:23] We're past the lifestyle side right now, man.

[00:48:26] You know, the family's like, yeah, we're good now.

[00:48:28] We didn't even worry about that.

[00:48:31] But it's to set it up for fun.

[00:48:33] If the right person comes along and says, hey, man, we love what you're doing.

[00:48:35] Here's what it looks like.

[00:48:36] Hey, we can have those conversations.

[00:48:38] And we can have those conversations, right, wrong, or indifferent.

[00:48:40] And sometimes having those conversations often to know where you are because they say, I

[00:48:49] believe, hey, man, this thing is worth $15 million trillion.

[00:48:52] And the real person goes, yeah, you know what, man, I can give you $2.50 for it.

[00:48:57] Which is happening.

[00:48:58] So you have to sit down and have those conversations because that helps you set the goals as well

[00:49:03] to really say, hey, man, this is great.

[00:49:05] Your top line is awesome.

[00:49:07] You're making great on MRR.

[00:49:08] But your expenses is out of whack.

[00:49:09] You need to go fix that.

[00:49:12] Okay.

[00:49:13] And talking about, you know, chargebacks and what are you doing?

[00:49:16] Are you running things to the business?

[00:49:17] How are you keeping it clean?

[00:49:18] How are you doing those things?

[00:49:19] How are you having those things?

[00:49:20] Having those conversations is big because you won't know until you get to the end.

[00:49:26] And then you're going to be solely disappointed because you could have fixed and did better

[00:49:30] than that a long time ago by having the right conversations.

[00:49:34] And not be embarrassed for someone to really call you.

[00:49:37] And that comes back from my programming day.

[00:49:38] I used to hate being a programmer.

[00:49:40] You're going in like, hey, man, what the most awesome code, man?

[00:49:42] They come in and rip it apart.

[00:49:43] You're like, ah, I can't believe you just did that.

[00:49:46] I worked three weeks on that.

[00:49:48] Oh, yeah, it sucks.

[00:49:49] Your subroutines are awful, man.

[00:49:51] Your variables didn't come up right.

[00:49:52] And this is the worst piece of crap I ever see.

[00:49:54] Oh, my gosh.

[00:49:57] That's why I'm not a programmer today.

[00:49:59] That's awesome.

[00:50:01] Yeah.

[00:50:02] Where's all your comments on the code there?

[00:50:05] Yeah.

[00:50:05] Like, what's up, man?

[00:50:06] It's like, oh, dang.

[00:50:10] How does this translate to your relationships are a big deal to you?

[00:50:14] How does this translate to your team?

[00:50:17] You're talking about that.

[00:50:19] Yeah.

[00:50:19] How you hire, how you purchase, sort of things.

[00:50:22] Yeah.

[00:50:22] So, you know, for me, I believe in this situation, I want to come in here and look at you and base it off the right attitude, right?

[00:50:29] So if you got this go-get-it attitude, man, that wants to learn, is hungry, I could teach you the technical side.

[00:50:35] That's the easy part, right?

[00:50:36] But I cannot teach you respect and attitude and go get them in a hunger.

[00:50:39] That's either you have it or you don't.

[00:50:42] So the team, man, I spend a lot of time working with the team to understand whether I got football fans.

[00:50:47] I got a guy on my team who is learning Latin to really become a priest.

[00:50:53] And, you know, we support him in that area, right?

[00:50:55] He's like, hey, what's up?

[00:50:56] It's like, I don't know how I do IT.

[00:50:57] And then I was like, I get it.

[00:50:59] But that's what he wants to do.

[00:51:01] And we support him.

[00:51:01] I have different cultures, men, women, African-Americans, Muslim, you name it, they're on the team.

[00:51:07] And it's great because I think that diversity and that thing makes us a better organization because they bring different points of views of where it comes from.

[00:51:15] And the biggest deal, man, I never asked my team to do something I wouldn't do myself.

[00:51:22] And I'm either the first one in with them, charging their hold with them or out and making sure that they got what they need and how it works through it.

[00:51:30] And always trying to figure out how to make them better personally, professionally and where it goes.

[00:51:34] And they asked me when they come in, it's like, Corey, you know, if we had to come in here, what's up?

[00:51:38] I said, man, I don't expect you to be with me forever.

[00:51:40] But as long as you're here, I'm going to treat you and we're going to do this thing together.

[00:51:43] We rise together as 5K and we die together as 5K, right?

[00:51:46] And I said, but when you leave, I want whoever you go to to be like, man, if everybody like that at 5K is like you, I'm going to go steal all of Corey's employees.

[00:51:56] Right?

[00:51:57] And that comes from just that relationship back of how do we do it?

[00:52:04] One, we try to figure out what makes it stick and we know each other's families, right?

[00:52:08] You know, we get into that piece of really understand because they sacrifice the time for them to come when they're on call and they're at a birthday party or they're out trying to take a vacation or take a trip.

[00:52:19] And a mercy comes in.

[00:52:21] They got to sacrifice that.

[00:52:22] So I wanted to tell the family, thank you for allowing them to be a part of our family and to go things from that perspective.

[00:52:30] And giving back to the community.

[00:52:32] I'm probably out there from Special Olympics with my middle son who is high function.

[00:52:36] I actually play flag football with him and coach his basketball team.

[00:52:41] So I'm the old man out there.

[00:52:43] I'm living.

[00:52:44] The old people got somebody on their tie, right?

[00:52:49] Giving back to the community.

[00:52:50] I love going out there and teaching and encouraging as many people as I can to go out there and chase their dreams no matter what.

[00:52:59] And that's where it's really good.

[00:53:01] And the team is a part of that as well.

[00:53:02] We go out there and talk a lot.

[00:53:04] A lot.

[00:53:06] Tell me about your team and gamification.

[00:53:13] Tech guys are just challenging.

[00:53:15] They like the competition, right?

[00:53:16] So when it comes to customer sad and certain things like that, we're always trying to figure out who gets the most, who gets the best, how we're doing, what that looks like, and where it comes from.

[00:53:25] Got guys who are avid bowlers.

[00:53:27] When it comes down to Final Four, right now football season is on.

[00:53:31] One of my guys is a big Steelers fan.

[00:53:33] I'm a big Cowboys fan.

[00:53:34] And we know what just happened the other night.

[00:53:37] We barely won, but we won.

[00:53:40] So we ain't really talking to each other right now.

[00:53:42] He ain't got nothing to say to me right now.

[00:53:43] He's a little shady right now.

[00:53:47] But we try to have a good time and come to that perspective.

[00:53:50] And I tell everybody, people respect what you inspect and have that mutual respect.

[00:53:56] And so, again, when we're out on the board of saying, hey, I'm in, I'm out, here's what I'm doing, here's what's going on.

[00:54:02] And I tell you, the fish stinks on the head down, right?

[00:54:05] So if I'm not willing to do it, they shouldn't be willing to do it.

[00:54:10] So I was saying, hey, I'm leading by example.

[00:54:12] Say, hey, here's where it is.

[00:54:13] Here's what's going on.

[00:54:14] And I'm not above that piece in that perspective.

[00:54:16] So, yeah.

[00:54:18] And I had to learn, too.

[00:54:20] What's been tough for me, because I'm a tech guy by chance as well, is to learn how to stop turning the wrench myself, right?

[00:54:26] I had to step back and say, I really want to go and build that DC really bad, but probably not the best place for me to be, right?

[00:54:37] And really giving that to my team and saying, hey, you know, you guys go knock this out.

[00:54:42] I trust you guys to go make that happen.

[00:54:44] I really appreciate how you tied that together, because I feel like I was confused that being willing to do it and be part of the team and not ask them to do anything.

[00:54:53] I wouldn't meant I still needed to turn the wrench some.

[00:54:57] And I really love how you connected actually stepping back, trusting them.

[00:55:02] It's how you can help.

[00:55:05] Yeah, it had to be that place where we had to, you know, you don't have to be in there doing it.

[00:55:11] You don't have to go out there and work it out from that perspective.

[00:55:15] You're there to support them, right?

[00:55:18] That's important, is being there to support them.

[00:55:21] And we do the same thing, you know, when it comes.

[00:55:24] I tell them all the time, it's like, you know, I'm not responsible for your plans and where you want to grow.

[00:55:28] I'm there to remove the barriers to get you to where you want to go, to make sure the class is available for you, to make you have the options to go do that, the time to go do that.

[00:55:36] But I can't tell you, you have to go and take psychology one on one because you want to do X.

[00:55:41] No, you got to go lay out what you want to do.

[00:55:43] My job is to go and enable you to go out there and get there.

[00:55:47] And part of that is, is for them to grow and sit there and show that trust to them to go out and build it.

[00:55:52] That I can't grow the business and take it to where they want to go and provide bonuses if I'm sitting there turning wrenches with you.

[00:55:59] Because if I'm in the boat with you turning wrenches, who's selling and having that conversation, right?

[00:56:07] I got to be over there because you're fully qualified to do this.

[00:56:11] And we have, I try to give nuggets of the business side to them as well as saying, at the end of the day, if you cost a hundred bucks and I cost $200 and we're both doing it, but we only charge the customer $100, the customer is getting $200 worth of free labor that we're not getting paid for.

[00:56:30] Yeah.

[00:56:31] So therefore it doesn't behoove us for me to be in there turning the wrench with you, right?

[00:56:38] It doesn't even behoove the wrench of you not doing it and me doing it myself because I undersold.

[00:56:42] So when the light comes on, I go, oh, okay, that makes sense.

[00:56:46] It's not me saying I'm too good for that.

[00:56:48] It's just that from a business perspective, you want that bonus at the end of the year.

[00:56:52] You know, 10% of zero is zero.

[00:56:58] Right?

[00:56:58] Right?

[00:56:59] It's just past tax, right?

[00:57:01] Hey, when I sit down and calculate, my CPA comes down and says, all right, how much is in the kitty to do what you got to get done?

[00:57:07] And if it ain't positive or zero, it is negative.

[00:57:11] I guess there ain't going to be no bonuses this year because it ain't like, I don't have anything to give it.

[00:57:17] And I tell them all the time, I said, if you're doing it the right way, it will take care of itself.

[00:57:22] And that's the piece where I have to make that big decision and say, hey, we're not going to do that.

[00:57:27] Or, hey, I'm not going on site from that perspective.

[00:57:29] Oh, no, you're going to do that yourself.

[00:57:33] I'm here to support you.

[00:57:34] You can call me, have everything else.

[00:57:36] But no.

[00:57:38] And if you need help while we're going through the scope, let's scope appropriately so that if you do need to pull in that resource, we've accounted for that resource.

[00:57:47] And then we can do that piece.

[00:57:49] And that's why I need your help on the side.

[00:57:50] So what went wrong on that last server build?

[00:57:53] Well, it took long and I could have needed some help.

[00:57:56] Okay.

[00:57:56] In the next server build, let's add what you didn't need that you should have brought to last time.

[00:58:00] So now we're covered.

[00:58:03] Oh, yeah, that's a good idea.

[00:58:05] Yeah, that's it right there.

[00:58:07] But so really talking to each other and having those open conversations to sit there and say, all right, we all rise together and we all fall together.

[00:58:16] And part of that conversation, we need to tell me what's right.

[00:58:19] Don't sit back and wait and say, well, I was going to tell you, but I knew that was going to work.

[00:58:23] I didn't say anything.

[00:58:24] And then it didn't work.

[00:58:25] I told you that don't do nothing for us.

[00:58:27] We need to tell me now, let's go fix it so that we come out looking like rock stars on the other side.

[00:58:35] And that's what's up.

[00:58:37] I want to switch gears.

[00:58:40] What's the biggest lesson you've learned over all your years in business?

[00:58:45] Man, biggest lesson, man, is always it is truly a blessing and a curse to be an entrepreneur.

[00:58:58] It's fun.

[00:58:59] And I always say, man, I don't need to work for nobody.

[00:59:03] But actually, I got a whole lot of bosses that are called customers as well as employees.

[00:59:08] So that doesn't true.

[00:59:10] The biggest lesson, man, is always be humble, man.

[00:59:15] And this is where it comes from.

[00:59:17] Humility is a big deal.

[00:59:19] Humility is be thankful for where you are and grateful for where you are and never take anything for granted.

[00:59:25] Because just as quick as you get it today, it can be gone tomorrow.

[00:59:29] And in our industry, that's huge because there's cybersecurity people out there.

[00:59:34] There's threat actors that are always waiting to get at us.

[00:59:37] There's lack of training of employees or disgruntled employees that are always waiting to get at you.

[00:59:41] Because America is such a they're very, very, very quickly to sue or do certain things.

[00:59:47] There's always a legal case somewhere hanging out there waiting to get you.

[00:59:50] There's always something.

[00:59:52] There's budgets.

[00:59:52] There's elections.

[00:59:54] There's everything that's always coming at you.

[00:59:56] But be humble and open to listen and surround yourself with great people is probably the biggest deal, man, is that you are not the smartest.

[01:00:10] If you were the smartest person in the room, you need to go find a new room.

[01:00:15] You need to go find a new room, man.

[01:00:17] It's not the one for you anymore.

[01:00:19] That's right.

[01:00:20] And that's what's up.

[01:00:21] I think that's the biggest deal is be humble, man, is do that.

[01:00:25] Be that.

[01:00:27] What's what's one thing if you could do or you would?

[01:00:32] Probably if I if I could do it earlier, man, I would probably start my business a well earlier from that perspective.

[01:00:37] It's been so much fun, man.

[01:00:38] Just the ups and downs.

[01:00:41] But I think it would have been there would have been some places where I probably would have hired sooner and made some different decisions on that side and build out certain staff from that perspective.

[01:00:55] I would definitely would have joined a peer group a lot earlier.

[01:00:59] Don't wait to wait a long time for that.

[01:01:01] And but it was it was cool from that perspective.

[01:01:06] And then I probably would have said in that in that early growth is take more time for yourself and your family and just go go make vacations a mandatory.

[01:01:19] You got to go do that.

[01:01:21] Because, you know, I mean, when I first started, man, I look up and it has been 10 years since we've been on vacation.

[01:01:26] What happened?

[01:01:27] What's going on here?

[01:01:29] Yeah.

[01:01:30] And it's because there's always something to do.

[01:01:32] There's there's always something in an MSP.

[01:01:35] Right.

[01:01:35] There's always something.

[01:01:39] That's probably the key is is is prioritize and do a little bit things different when it comes to family.

[01:01:45] Getting my employees out with their families and say, hey, man, go take care that business will be there.

[01:01:50] It will come.

[01:01:52] I love I love that you learn that and you're in your you're also shaping your team that way.

[01:01:58] What's a myth about running MSP that you'd like to change?

[01:02:02] The myth about MSP is managed that we know have the answer to everything.

[01:02:06] It's not true.

[01:02:09] And I try to tell my guys, I says, you know, if you if you believe that or you allow that to happen, then you're taking a bunch of responsibility for something that you have no control over.

[01:02:21] Says you got to speak the truth and be honest and open as transparent as you possibly can.

[01:02:28] But we don't know everything, but we do have the resources to go find the answer.

[01:02:34] And so the answer is to get back to what they need to get done.

[01:02:38] And so you don't have to answer it right away.

[01:02:40] You don't have to sit there.

[01:02:42] You can let it marinate a little bit.

[01:02:43] You can go find the answer.

[01:02:44] You can come back and give the precise answer or give a better answer.

[01:02:47] But once you come up with it, good, bad or indifferent, you got to share the answer.

[01:02:51] Truth is, you know what?

[01:02:54] Yeah, that machine ain't going to work for you.

[01:02:56] Yes, I understand that it's the third one.

[01:02:59] Yes, I understand that we didn't do this right.

[01:03:01] We're going to make it right.

[01:03:02] And this is what we're going to do to make it right and go make it right.

[01:03:05] But I think that's the biggest myth is that when I hire an MSP, they are technical experts and they know everything about everything.

[01:03:15] And that's just not a true statement.

[01:03:17] Yeah.

[01:03:17] Not a true statement at all.

[01:03:19] We're going to miss and we're going to miss.

[01:03:23] But when we miss, I'm going to be there to to help fix it and to make sure I make it right.

[01:03:31] And you can trust me to go out there and do that.

[01:03:33] Just like you're going to miss in your business.

[01:03:34] You're going to miss an order.

[01:03:35] You're going to miss a sale.

[01:03:36] That's that relationship coming back.

[01:03:38] You're going to miss an order.

[01:03:39] You're going to miss that call.

[01:03:40] You're going to miss that appointment that you thought was on your calendar.

[01:03:43] It wasn't on your calendar.

[01:03:44] And now they missed a client.

[01:03:45] That customer is going to be like, oh, my gosh, you know, all my ice cream melted.

[01:03:48] You should have been there at 12 and you didn't show up until two o'clock.

[01:03:51] You got to have that conversation.

[01:03:54] But you can only have that conversation and it won't be it's going to be hard, but it's not as hard when you have that relationship.

[01:04:01] Right.

[01:04:02] That's what's key is that is that you don't have to know everything about everything.

[01:04:07] But you do need to know and have those relationships to be able to go find out and to report back right, wrong or indifferent, be honest and open.

[01:04:17] Mm hmm.

[01:04:19] In business or industry, what's something that you're looking forward to right now?

[01:04:25] So I've been spending a lot of time over the last couple of years.

[01:04:27] I mean, last year for sure is doing the whole.

[01:04:29] I love it, man.

[01:04:30] AI has been really cool.

[01:04:31] And everybody's like, oh, my God, I got that AI thing again.

[01:04:35] But I'm actually speaking tomorrow at a trade show for a couple of days.

[01:04:39] And so the biggest thing I love about this is I believe this is this is truly a game changer for everybody.

[01:04:47] Mm hmm.

[01:04:48] And I truly believe one of the things I've been working on, I believe that it's going to directly have a profound effect on our industry.

[01:04:56] Mm hmm.

[01:04:56] And so and I started looking at this a couple of I spent a lot of time with Dell and HP and all the other guys.

[01:05:03] I said, man, if you look at what they've done, they said, hey, now we have the CPU and a CPU and then we have the AI chip that's totally separate.

[01:05:12] And so now the machine knows and basically do everything that a level one tech can do.

[01:05:17] It can patch itself.

[01:05:18] It can talk home.

[01:05:19] It can phone home.

[01:05:20] It knows everything it needs to get done.

[01:05:21] So why am I going to pay you for what the machine can do for itself?

[01:05:27] Mm hmm.

[01:05:27] Right.

[01:05:28] I mean, you can look at what Chad GPT or some of the other pieces.

[01:05:31] I can take a picture of an error message and it will really tell me what there is and give me 13 steps to fix it.

[01:05:37] Right.

[01:05:37] Why do I need to pay Corey to do that?

[01:05:40] Right.

[01:05:40] All the challenges that we had about why we're important, where it is now, they've taken all our knowledge that's out there and all the things we've done and actually can now use it against us.

[01:05:50] Right.

[01:05:50] So what's the next step?

[01:05:51] Right.

[01:05:54] Boom.

[01:05:54] Business model has to change.

[01:05:56] Right.

[01:05:56] Because now it's out there.

[01:05:59] And so what we're seeing now is this whole thing for us has been really cool is to go in there and transform how businesses are leveraging the AI to change their business.

[01:06:11] And the only reason we've been able to be successful with this is the relationships we had.

[01:06:15] We're not talking to the IT guys.

[01:06:17] We're in their sales department.

[01:06:19] We're in their marketing department.

[01:06:20] We're in their HR department.

[01:06:22] We're in their manufacturing engineering department talking about what challenges are you seeing every day that keeps coming up over and over and over and over again that we can help you solve.

[01:06:34] And we're going in there and we're helping them like for the sales guys.

[01:06:37] They're like, man, I hate having to update the freaking CRM every time I get off a call.

[01:06:42] I can't sell.

[01:06:43] And you tell me I gave my quarter.

[01:06:44] I gave what it is.

[01:06:45] And this was a nigga.

[01:06:46] So wouldn't it be nice if I hopped off of a Teams call or a Zoom call or whatever call?

[01:06:50] And there's a complete summary of who was on the call, who said what?

[01:06:53] And it summarized everything and it dropped it into my CRM.

[01:06:56] And I'm off to the next one.

[01:07:02] See how I'm going with that?

[01:07:04] Great.

[01:07:04] We can make that happen for you.

[01:07:06] What?

[01:07:08] So now they can sell more.

[01:07:11] They can do more.

[01:07:11] The notes are up to date.

[01:07:12] Everything that comes from now I can take that resource.

[01:07:15] And now it's increasing their bottom line and where it comes from.

[01:07:18] And we're having a real conversation.

[01:07:19] Man, I hate having to go through 100 resumes looking for certain things and looking for criteria, what it is.

[01:07:25] Hmm.

[01:07:26] Is there a tool out there that can look at resumes and filter out and say based off the resume, based on what they're hiring, what they're acquiring, how long they stayed at the last job, what they need to get done, how does it look like?

[01:07:35] What they're seeing out of the industry and search and come out and says, hey, out of the 100, here's 10.

[01:07:40] That meet where you want to get based on your benefits, based on what we've seen, based on what's out there.

[01:07:45] You should interview these 10.

[01:07:47] There's a tool for that.

[01:07:49] You see what I'm saying?

[01:07:50] Mm-hmm.

[01:07:51] Now taking that same concept and bringing that concept back into the MSP is what we've been able to do now.

[01:07:56] It's like, man, my guy, I got one guy who's doing Latin, who's very eloquent in how he writes.

[01:08:01] I got one guy who can care less.

[01:08:03] Like, hey, man, if I could put two words together and text it in three words and say thank you very much, we're good.

[01:08:08] Now I can say, no, when we put a note back in the case or create an SOP, wouldn't it be cool if I told it what was the problem and what happened and here's what it was?

[01:08:15] And it's summarized in the way that Corey wants to communicate to his customers consistently every time, no matter who said it.

[01:08:23] Mm-hmm.

[01:08:24] There's a tool for that, right?

[01:08:25] And it's transforming the opportunity now is that we're getting consistent, better documentation, better messages, and it's improving the morale and the productivity of everybody who's involved.

[01:08:37] Mm-hmm.

[01:08:37] Very, very cool stuff.

[01:08:38] And so that's the conversation we'll be having over the next couple of days is how we can bring this stuff into us and actually show them.

[01:08:45] So when the customer says, you know what, I don't really trust this AI stuff.

[01:08:48] It doesn't really do anything for me.

[01:08:49] Hey, Mr. Customer, your IT guy has been providing you AI and you've been using it because, remember, every time you ask,

[01:08:54] that little thing on the bottom, it says, hey, here's what's up, and it comes back with four things in it.

[01:08:59] Guess what?

[01:08:59] That's not a human.

[01:09:00] That's AI that we've told you to do to serve you.

[01:09:03] Mm-hmm.

[01:09:04] Mm-hmm.

[01:09:04] Hey, this is what we're doing in here.

[01:09:06] It's like, hell, you've been using it and it's been working for you.

[01:09:10] So now I can tell you how we have debunked that, right?

[01:09:13] It's like, all right, that stuff is fake.

[01:09:15] No, no, no, it's real.

[01:09:16] But here's how you can use it to improve your business.

[01:09:19] Trust but verify, but it's an assistant.

[01:09:21] And if you train it up and say, if you throw it out there and say, hey, go out there and you're an expert on building a network

[01:09:28] and you've never touched it, I'm fresh out of college, he's probably going to fail.

[01:09:31] So you treat AI in the same way.

[01:09:32] You go out there and give them the beast, put the temporary mode, and then you come over there and critique it and get it right.

[01:09:39] It did 85% of the work.

[01:09:40] You just need to work on the 15% to take it over the goal line.

[01:09:44] And that's the things we're teaching customers and thinking that I believe that this is truly the game changer for everybody.

[01:09:51] And if you're not on board, and I tell them all the time, say, if you're not talking to AI to your customers, that's cool.

[01:09:56] Don't worry about it.

[01:09:57] I will.

[01:09:58] And I'll take your customer.

[01:10:00] Yeah.

[01:10:01] Fair conversation.

[01:10:02] Yeah.

[01:10:03] And they go, wow, that's pretty arrogant.

[01:10:05] I said, no, it's the truth.

[01:10:06] I said, because they're already hearing it.

[01:10:08] You're not talking to them either because you're scared to adapt or don't want to.

[01:10:12] I'm going to come in there and have a conversation with AI.

[01:10:15] Oh, yeah.

[01:10:15] By the way, what are you doing for this?

[01:10:19] All I need is the opportunity to peek behind the curtain and you're giving it to me.

[01:10:24] So very simple.

[01:10:26] So just got to have those conversations.

[01:10:27] And I believe that's going to, I think this is probably not just for us.

[01:10:31] It's going to be the most disruptive thing that we all have seen no matter what.

[01:10:36] It opens the door for security conversations.

[01:10:38] It's opening the door for everything that we've been begging and crying to get our customers

[01:10:42] to do because they want that AI shiny ball.

[01:10:45] The answer is yes, when?

[01:10:49] Yes, when?

[01:10:51] I will do DLP.

[01:10:52] I will do all the cybersecurity stuff, but when can I get the AI thing?

[01:10:55] I want co-pilot, but when can I get the AI?

[01:10:57] When can I do this?

[01:10:59] So all that, no, maybe, nah.

[01:11:03] Yes, when can I get this?

[01:11:05] So now we actually have a problem because we have projects that is holding up how we

[01:11:11] get to the AI thing.

[01:11:12] It's like, we should do the DLP thing a long time ago.

[01:11:17] And so it's like, ah.

[01:11:18] The answer is yes, so when can I get the AI thing?

[01:11:21] It's like, I wasn't expecting that, yes, but uh-oh.

[01:11:26] So it's a pretty cool conversation that's happening right now.

[01:11:28] So you guys actually making money with AI with your customers today?

[01:11:34] We are.

[01:11:35] Very much so from an assessment perspective to creating custom LLMs for them, to really coming

[01:11:42] in to show them how it transformed their business.

[01:11:46] So we're becoming business consultants to them on AI of how it helps drive their business.

[01:11:51] Right?

[01:11:51] It's not a technical conversation.

[01:11:53] It's really, let's look at the bottom line of taking all this data.

[01:11:57] Because I mean, that's what it wants.

[01:11:58] Like, hey, let me take this spreadsheet, this spreadsheet, correlate it, and spit out a report

[01:12:04] that I don't need Julie to do anymore.

[01:12:07] Now take Julie, go put her on something that's more tangible.

[01:12:09] Well, let me use this digital labor that's almost free to go do this.

[01:12:14] And like, oh my gosh, I didn't know how we could do this.

[01:12:17] Yeah.

[01:12:17] Yep.

[01:12:18] So now I gained an employee and a half.

[01:12:21] He's pretty cool.

[01:12:22] If you think about it, like, isn't that what we're supposed to be doing?

[01:12:26] AI.

[01:12:27] 100%.

[01:12:27] Right?

[01:12:28] 100%.

[01:12:28] But again, we get taught up in the speeds and feeds, bits and bytes, that we don't talk

[01:12:35] about conversation, right?

[01:12:37] We don't talk about the real stuff.

[01:12:39] We're talking about how many packets per seconds and the VPN packets we can get done

[01:12:43] and how we're DNS filtering 14,000s and our EDR and our XDR and our MDRs are doing whatever

[01:12:49] the customer's like.

[01:12:52] Right.

[01:12:53] Okay.

[01:12:54] Yeah?

[01:12:55] Yeah.

[01:12:55] Yeah.

[01:12:56] Yeah.

[01:12:56] None of that makes a business impact that they can measure.

[01:12:59] Yeah.

[01:13:00] Yeah.

[01:13:01] What's the number one book you would recommend?

[01:13:06] Man, I always go back.

[01:13:08] I love to read all the time.

[01:13:10] One of the biggest ones I always go back to is a book called Who's Got Your Back by Keith

[01:13:16] Ferrazzi.

[01:13:16] Hmm.

[01:13:17] Hmm.

[01:13:17] And what it's all about, man, is that you're not in every room, but you need somebody wearing

[01:13:24] your T-shirt in every meeting that you don't have an opportunity to be inside.

[01:13:29] And I take that literally because I tell my customers and I tell my office manager and

[01:13:33] my service director, I say, look, every morning our customers are having a huddle and guarantee

[01:13:39] you 5K is on the topic list.

[01:13:41] And I said, we need to make sure that at least five people in that room got a 5K's T-shirt

[01:13:48] on that's cheering us on because we can't be there.

[01:13:53] And I say, and that's the mentality that you need to be thinking about is we didn't know

[01:13:58] who was wearing our T-shirts and get us in those rooms to have those conversations and

[01:14:04] listening and having us participate even when we're not in the room.

[01:14:08] And that's really cool.

[01:14:09] So that's an old book, man.

[01:14:11] But that's really, really cool book is Who's Got Your Back?

[01:14:15] I give that to all my mentees.

[01:14:16] I give them to anybody that I'm talking to or anybody who's struggling.

[01:14:20] I said, if you figure this out of how you get people to wear it, whether I'm meeting

[01:14:24] with chambers, whether I'm having a sales conversation, I just did a big presentation

[01:14:29] and they got to take it back.

[01:14:31] You need to make sure that person has a full-blown signed T-shirt with your name on

[01:14:36] this one.

[01:14:36] They say, man, we need an IT company that can do X.

[01:14:39] And they go, we need a company that can do this.

[01:14:43] Right?

[01:14:44] Mm-hmm.

[01:14:45] That's what we got to make sure that's happening in that situation.

[01:14:47] It's a very cool book, man.

[01:14:48] It's an old school book, but man, it hits and checks all the boxes.

[01:14:53] Who's Got Your Back?

[01:14:54] By Keith Ferrazzi.

[01:14:55] I remember reading Never Eat Alone by him as well.

[01:14:59] Yeah.

[01:15:00] That's it.

[01:15:00] Yeah.

[01:15:01] Yeah.

[01:15:01] It's very cool.

[01:15:02] Got some really good books there.

[01:15:06] I feel like I could ask you so many more questions.

[01:15:09] I know that I want to be a good steward of your time, Corey.

[01:15:12] For everybody that's listening, how can they find your company?

[01:15:16] How can they reach out to you, connect with you online?

[01:15:20] Yeah, man.

[01:15:21] Corey Kirkendall, 5ktech.com.

[01:15:24] And people ask all the time, man, what is that 5K?

[01:15:26] Man, do you cost $5,000?

[01:15:28] Do you run 5K?

[01:15:29] Do you whatever it is?

[01:15:30] Nah, not me, man.

[01:15:31] So part of that conversation I had about making sure I was building out and making sure my

[01:15:36] people and my family was a part of that.

[01:15:38] So the thing about it is me, my wife, and my three kids, 5K.

[01:15:43] Yeah, I kind of like it.

[01:15:44] But the other piece is that in marketing, as you go down that path from a business perspective

[01:15:49] is if you look at any list or anything that I show up of, the only thing that will ever

[01:15:54] be above 5K is 0, 1, 2, 3, 4.

[01:15:57] Right?

[01:15:58] Because number five will always show up before A, B, C, D, E, or G, anything else from that

[01:16:03] perspective.

[01:16:03] So it was a marketing conversation as well.

[01:16:05] So it was a lot of thought and effort that went into that piece and where it comes from.

[01:16:09] Located here in Allen, Texas.

[01:16:10] You can always hit me up on LinkedIn.

[01:16:12] I'm always available out there.

[01:16:14] I love to talk and just chat.

[01:16:16] You know, and if you ask me a question, you know, you can always hit me back.

[01:16:19] I will come up with you no matter what.

[01:16:20] Nothing is off limits, right?

[01:16:21] The only stupid question is the one you don't ask.

[01:16:24] I'm open book and I'm here to learn.

[01:16:27] I just say, hey, let's make it serious.

[01:16:29] And I create your time as my time is valuable because that's exactly what it is, man.

[01:16:33] But I'm always willing to give back.

[01:16:35] And you'll see me out there talking or something.

[01:16:38] Come up to me, man.

[01:16:39] I'm a very personable guy, man.

[01:16:41] And we have a good time for sure.

[01:16:43] Yeah, there's no doubt about that.

[01:16:45] Well, thank you for being an open book.

[01:16:47] Thank you for being so giving.

[01:16:48] This has been tremendous for you to, you know, give first.

[01:16:53] It's been a gift to me and a gift to everyone listening, I believe.

[01:16:56] Thank you for being on MSP Mindset from the bottom of my heart, Corey.

[01:17:00] This has been a ton.

[01:17:01] Demi, I appreciate it, man.

[01:17:02] Thank you.