10+ Years in the Top 500: How Chris Built a Co-Managed Powerhouse (MSP Titan #15)

[00:00:00] Hey, before we get into this interview, my team and I, we're going to be in person at the Grocon 2024 event in St. Petersburg, Florida. It's December 3rd through the 5th. We're going to be recording with amazing MSPs like you. And if sales and marketing is something that you need to be better at, and let's face it, all of us MSPs do, then this is the event you can't miss. So join me and my team there. And by the way, it's completely free.

[00:00:28] You've continued to be on the Top 500 list. Is there any secret or wisdom you would give?

[00:00:35] I would say pick your lane and stay in it. Don't go out there and just do everything for a dollar. Because if you do, you're just setting yourself up for failure. Because what you don't want is, hey, I got this brand new customer and I didn't have the resources of service and support him. And so then they got through the contract and they pulled the plug on it. So for every dollar you're bringing in, you got $2 leaving out the back.

[00:00:55] Culture trumps strategy for breakfast every morning. I don't think it gets enough visibility in a lot of organizations.

[00:01:02] Was that always evident to you?

[00:01:04] No, no, it wasn't. The bigger we got, the more I realized that culture is a big deal.

[00:01:12] Hey guys, Damian Stevens, host of MSP Mindset.

[00:01:16] Today, I'm continuing my mission to interview 100 of the top 500 MSPs on the planet.

[00:01:23] And today, I get the pleasure of speaking with Chris Vincent.

[00:01:27] Chris has done some amazing things.

[00:01:30] And one that interests me is his company is nearly entirely co-managed.

[00:01:35] So if you want to learn how he serves users from 250 to 40,000 users and maintains an amazing culture, don't miss our conversation.

[00:01:46] Chris, tell me about how you built your business and kind of that transition. Not everybody's got that family piece.

[00:01:54] Yeah, well, so when my dad's founded the company, I was really the second employee.

[00:02:00] So, you know, I grew up in the business and, you know, we built it together and, you know, we were a standard bar.

[00:02:07] I mean, this goes back to the days of like Lantastic, Novell and, you know, Windows NT.

[00:02:12] Okay. I mean, that just kind of shows my age a little bit.

[00:02:15] Token Ring Network?

[00:02:16] Yeah. I mean, Token Ring Networks, we weren't even Ethernet yet.

[00:02:19] We were FDDI and Token.

[00:02:21] If you had FDDI Network, you were badass.

[00:02:24] Yeah.

[00:02:26] So, and then, you know, things started progressing.

[00:02:29] You know, we used to do, we were doing voice over the network before Voice was cool.

[00:02:32] You know, so Data Race, you remember Data Race and Mycom and those guys, you would hang a bunch of TTY terminals off the back of that thing and, you know, access AS400s and do a 56K line.

[00:02:42] But a 56K line back in those days was $2,500 a site.

[00:02:45] Okay.

[00:02:46] Yeah.

[00:02:47] So, so we would put voice on because voice, you were paying 15 to 20 cents for long distance.

[00:02:53] Right.

[00:02:54] So if we could get rid of the long distance, then that helps justify the 56K line.

[00:02:58] Then it saves them, saves them money associated with it.

[00:03:01] So, you know, that's kind of like the, when we started doing networking, that's really kind of where we started growing up.

[00:03:06] Okay.

[00:03:07] Gotcha.

[00:03:08] And then we became like one of Cisco's first partners in the Gulf Coast and that really kind of just accelerated the business for us.

[00:03:14] And, and then we started to open up more offices along the, along the Gulf South and, you know, New Mexico and Texas and Oklahoma and Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee and Louisiana.

[00:03:27] So, you know, we had a regional kind of footprint and, you know, so as, as that business started to pivot in, in transition, if you remember, you know, like MCI WorldCom got into business, all the telcos started getting the business.

[00:03:40] And then any sort of margin just evaporated out of it because customers were just buying hardware and they were trying to do some of the implementation of sales.

[00:03:47] They were doing, you know, different pieces and parts and we were coming in and doing some.

[00:03:51] And then like in probably 08, 07, 08, we started, you know, building a strategy to transition the company from non-recurring revenue and implementation services into MRR or monthly recurring revenue.

[00:04:05] And, you know, the gift that keeps on giving.

[00:04:09] So this was around what year?

[00:04:11] 07, 08.

[00:04:12] So that was really early.

[00:04:14] Yeah.

[00:04:14] Yeah.

[00:04:15] This was all before all this was cool.

[00:04:16] All right.

[00:04:17] You know, so we, we decided, we made a decision that we were going to pivot the business and, and move away from, you know, from a low margin, you know, chasing low margin hardware is really kind of what it amounted to.

[00:04:30] And so, you know, when you, when, you know, some of the things that like you asked me from a question standpoint was, you know, what, what was your biggest lesson that over the years that you learned is being an MSP.

[00:04:41] Yeah.

[00:04:42] And, and it's invest heavy in, in people processing systems and understand it's not easy to convert a company from non-recurring revenue to, to monthly recurring revenue.

[00:04:51] So you got to focus and commit because I can tell you right now that, that companies that are, which is the sweet spot for all the MSPs now because they're SMB, right?

[00:05:00] So they're focused on that five to 50 users, right?

[00:05:04] And they built an organization associated to service a five to 50 user organization.

[00:05:09] I can't, like, I can't make any money doing it.

[00:05:12] And I didn't recognize that.

[00:05:13] So, you know, we're more of that, that enterprise MSP that focuses in on, on, you know, coexisting with their internal IT department in, in, in a hybrid solution for the customer.

[00:05:26] We take off all the burden, the heavy lifting burden on a daily basis.

[00:05:30] Okay.

[00:05:31] Allowing them to focus on a business and, and create, and create the, the IT solutions that, that service the business.

[00:05:39] And we take all the headache off of them.

[00:05:41] And so the heavy lifting.

[00:05:43] And so that's really where our, our, our, our spot is.

[00:05:46] And, and, and we're really going to play in that 250 user network on up.

[00:05:52] And, and that's where our sweet spot finds.

[00:05:54] I want to back up a little bit there, Chris.

[00:05:57] How did, like, that sounds great, but how did you arrive at that?

[00:06:01] Like a lot of folks, I think the five to 50 is just because there's a lot of them in an area.

[00:06:06] And so you just fall into the kind of, fall into it naturally.

[00:06:09] How did you determine 250 and up?

[00:06:13] Well, we were already servicing those style of clients, you know, in, in, in conjunction in partnership with Cisco.

[00:06:19] And so, so we just stayed in that client base.

[00:06:22] And then we started expanding our services offering.

[00:06:25] And then, you know, the labor market starts to tighten and customers are having a hard time finding, you know, all these engineers.

[00:06:31] And the complexity of, of implementing, you know, the, the routers and switch platforms and everything else was just getting, you know, uber complex and what the, what, what the needs of the customers were.

[00:06:42] So when you look at it, you know, today, when you, when you, when you kind of look at the whole, like, if you go and implement Meraki, for example.

[00:06:50] You know, I just built a new house and I put Meraki everywhere because it's just a good product.

[00:06:54] Okay. And it's easy. So you got a portal that you go into and, you know, you can, you don't have to be a network engineer whiz kid to, to figure it all out.

[00:07:03] So the, the, the, the implementation process of these systems became, became easier.

[00:07:08] And so the customers needed less and less certifications, less and less expertise.

[00:07:12] And then they're like, Hey, look, or do we even need to be in this space?

[00:07:16] Let's, let's, let's push this out to, to a provider and partner with them and, and get, get the service delivered 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

[00:07:26] So with you focusing on the two 50, I'm curious, is that mostly pure play managed services where you are the IT department?

[00:07:35] Is it co-managed?

[00:07:36] It's all co-managed.

[00:07:37] Something else.

[00:07:37] Okay.

[00:07:37] I don't think, I don't think I have a customer that is where we're doing the entire from desktop to server.

[00:07:43] Okay.

[00:07:45] So it's all going to be pieces and parts of it in, in what we deliver to that, to that organization.

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[00:08:54] Wow.

[00:08:55] So, I mean, all co-managed.

[00:08:56] That really makes you very different than there's so many folks that are just some have been in for a while and I think couldn't make co-managed work and others are just now waking up to co-managed.

[00:09:09] Yeah.

[00:09:10] So to be that, be your customer base, that's a big difference.

[00:09:13] Yes.

[00:09:14] And we started looking at it and, you know, early on we were buying SIP trunking from different providers.

[00:09:23] And this was before SIP trunking was cool.

[00:09:24] Everybody still had PRIs at this point in time and 1FBs.

[00:09:27] So we'd walk in and say, look, man, we could save you, you know, $20,000, $30,000 a month and here's how we do it.

[00:09:34] And then customers are like, oh, okay, well, let's talk about that.

[00:09:37] Yeah.

[00:09:37] Well, so we were doing it with partnerships and then we started looking at it and we're like, hold on, you know, we could go buy MetaSwitch platforms and deploy them ourselves.

[00:09:43] So we started buying MetaSwitch platforms and then we started doing hosted voice and we started doing SIP trunking.

[00:09:49] Before we were just doing, you know, SIP trunking termination where we put an IAD sitting in there and IAD would just convert it into, you know, a PRI or 1FB looking, you know, output to them, to the PBX.

[00:10:03] So we were taking legacy PBX and key systems and putting them on SIP trunking platform and saving the customers, you know, tons of money.

[00:10:10] So that MR, that was kind of an entry into more MR.

[00:10:15] Then, you know, we started getting into the transport space and then we were in the hosted voice space and then, you know, all those things continue to grow.

[00:10:24] So you kind of have this interesting background kind of from, at least from what I said, from computer, you builder to, you know, Cisco and maybe later Meraki, you know, network and, you know, all the telephony.

[00:10:40] And is that what drove or what did, because here's, besides being co-managed, another thing that's just very different is that you are not just in Lafayette.

[00:10:49] No, no, we're not.

[00:10:52] No, we do stuff nationwide.

[00:10:54] Our largest, largest customers got 40,000 connected workers.

[00:10:59] Wow.

[00:11:00] You know, thousand plus locations kind of deal.

[00:11:03] And, you know, we do quite a bit for them.

[00:11:05] But give yourself, tell everybody a little bit more there, Chris.

[00:11:08] You got to give yourself, you're selling yourself short a little bit, Chris, because I work with a lot of MSPs.

[00:11:13] These are like, we do business because, you know, what in reality they mean is we sell to our, in our one metro area.

[00:11:19] And then, you know, if they open a branch office, then we, you know, we do some business in another state.

[00:11:25] Yeah.

[00:11:25] But I think you've, you know, got at least offices, if not workers in quite a few areas.

[00:11:31] Yeah.

[00:11:31] I mean, we do stuff nationwide.

[00:11:32] So we do quite a bit in the healthcare space nationwide.

[00:11:38] For some reason, we got in the middle of plasma centers.

[00:11:41] It's kind of crazy.

[00:11:42] But so we have a whole team that specializes in plasma centers and the build out of them.

[00:11:48] So we could do rapid deploy on the plasma center within.

[00:11:51] It was typically taking our customers about six weeks to do a build on deploy.

[00:11:55] And we do it in two.

[00:11:57] Oh, wow.

[00:11:57] We just got a rapid, you know, deal that we do.

[00:11:59] And it's like, hey, here's a blueprint.

[00:12:02] Here's a playbook.

[00:12:03] And just get out the way.

[00:12:04] Hold my beer and watch this.

[00:12:05] Okay.

[00:12:06] So we just, and we just did it.

[00:12:09] And then they sold to somebody else.

[00:12:11] Then they sold to somebody else.

[00:12:12] And then every time we were just gaining customer base with it through the build process and then them selling.

[00:12:19] So there's a lot of M&A stuff going on with plasma centers all across the U.S.

[00:12:23] And understand that like there's only two countries that really people will buy plasma from.

[00:12:28] And plasma is, you know, becoming a very, you know, wanted commodity out there.

[00:12:34] And so it's Europe and the U.S.

[00:12:36] And so, you know, taking this plasma and they're spooling it up and injecting it in people's shoulders and backs and knees and everything else.

[00:12:44] But they're going to like Costa Rica.

[00:12:46] They're going to Panama.

[00:12:47] They're going to Mexico.

[00:12:47] They're doing these things where they take the plasma and they spin it up.

[00:12:51] But it's being actually used in third world countries, so to speak.

[00:12:57] Interesting.

[00:12:58] Yeah.

[00:12:58] So interesting market, you know, but it's big pharma getting into it from Europe and everything else.

[00:13:05] I love that you guys somehow figured out that process to take from six weeks to two.

[00:13:11] We, you know, we just, we went in and we did some.

[00:13:14] We did a retrofit on, that's what got us into it is like one company we did a retrofit for.

[00:13:20] And they're like, hey, we're going to sell this.

[00:13:21] And so we retrofitted everything, got them up to a standard.

[00:13:25] And then when they sold it, the company that bought it called us and said, hey, we want you to do this.

[00:13:30] And they sold two.

[00:13:31] Then they, then that company said, hey, we got 10 more.

[00:13:34] Would you come do these?

[00:13:36] We want the same standard that we have in these.

[00:13:39] So, yeah, it was just kind of interesting how it all developed.

[00:13:41] And, and we just kind of built up a name for ourselves in the plasma space.

[00:13:48] So what is, you've had all this growth.

[00:13:50] You're, you're in multiple states, it seems like with offices.

[00:13:56] And is it that you're focused in co-managed?

[00:13:59] Is it focused on a vertical?

[00:14:00] Is there something else that, because it's just, it's a terrific business, right?

[00:14:05] But it's, it's also kind of interesting because you, from my perspective, you broke the traditional mold.

[00:14:10] You're not the normal SMB, you know, normal MSP, because you're not really doing much true managed.

[00:14:17] You're doing co-managed.

[00:14:18] You're also not selling to SMB.

[00:14:20] You're not staying in your one GO.

[00:14:22] Like you're breaking all the rules, which I love.

[00:14:23] Right.

[00:14:24] So how did, how did you figure out this?

[00:14:28] And is there any other part of that that you think is kind of key to your guy's success?

[00:14:33] Well, I would say that we focused on our targeted customer profile.

[00:14:36] We defined that early on.

[00:14:37] All right.

[00:14:38] So we knew what we wanted.

[00:14:40] Okay.

[00:14:41] And, and when we go into an account or get brought into the account, or we're chasing an account,

[00:14:47] if we can't create some MRR revenue in the first six months, then it's like, hey guys, what are we doing here?

[00:14:52] Like this doesn't make any sense.

[00:14:53] This doesn't fit our mold.

[00:14:54] Okay.

[00:14:56] And like I said, early on, you know, we, we were taking, you know, whether it be like Cisco platform,

[00:15:03] you know, IP telephony way back when, when it was Celsius and all that other stuff.

[00:15:07] And then traditional PBXs.

[00:15:09] And we're saving these companies, you know, an anointed amount of money by transitioning over to SIP trunking.

[00:15:15] And it gave them tons, tons of flexibility because their, their, their trunking wasn't tied to brick and mortar.

[00:15:21] It was, it was more, more of a virtual component.

[00:15:23] So they moved, they didn't really have to move, move a PRI.

[00:15:27] They just move transport.

[00:15:28] And once transport's there, then, then we could reroute, reroute the trunking to them.

[00:15:32] So that kind of put us in a different, I guess, playing field.

[00:15:37] And then, so we, we, we, you know, we wanted customers that are multi-location.

[00:15:41] They could really take care of, of, of trunking.

[00:15:44] And, and, or we wanted a customer with a lot of trunking.

[00:15:47] So a large corporate, you know, let's say a hospital, you know, they can, they can utilize that kind of solution.

[00:15:55] But it, it becomes, you know, a better savings when, when you've got a multi, a multi-office organization.

[00:16:04] Because you can truck for the enterprise, not just the location.

[00:16:08] So that's part of what pushed your decision to be larger market.

[00:16:12] Yeah.

[00:16:13] That wouldn't, that wouldn't make a difference or wouldn't make much of a difference in SMB.

[00:16:16] I mean, you've got to save a little bit, but you're not going to save a bunch.

[00:16:19] And, and just, we're just, we didn't build a, build a company to service that SMB space.

[00:16:25] I mean, we would be going down market and it would just, we have a set of resources and, and, and professionals that just, we just, it's, it's hard for us to service somebody that's really small.

[00:16:38] Interesting.

[00:16:40] I want to go back to the part where, you know, I guess somewhere around 2007 or 8, managed services as a term was either not around or brand new.

[00:16:53] And you decided to somewhere around there to start making that transition, which, you know, hindsight, right one, recurrent revenue.

[00:17:02] Amazing.

[00:17:02] Right.

[00:17:04] But what got you thinking that way?

[00:17:07] Well, so I looked at the market space and I looked at one vertical being the energy sector.

[00:17:12] We call it energy, but it's all a gas.

[00:17:14] It's upstream, midstream, downstream.

[00:17:16] You know, where they're, where they're drilling for oil is very remote, hard to reach locations.

[00:17:23] And so what we did was we looked at that whole market space and we were like, hey man, there's an inflection point here.

[00:17:30] They've got your traditional communications and service providers out there that are servicing these customers.

[00:17:35] But they're only delivering the transport and they're only delivering voice.

[00:17:40] They're not delivering any of the IT services and support.

[00:17:43] And so we looked at that market space because, I mean, obviously we're rich in oil and gas down here in Texas and Louisiana and, you know, kind of the Gulf Coast thing and offshore.

[00:17:53] Sure.

[00:17:54] So we focused in on that, on that vertical itself and said, okay, what are the deficiencies in this vertical and how can we address them in what we deliver and how we deliver it?

[00:18:05] How do we make ourselves very unique in that market space compared to other providers?

[00:18:11] And so, and that's, that's really where the transition started to happen.

[00:18:15] And so that, that market, we went after that market space and it really ramped very fast for us.

[00:18:21] And, and then we, we, we built out some teleport operations and, and satellite operations.

[00:18:27] And then we had LTE services that were servicing these, these places because they're ever moving.

[00:18:32] And so we need, we need things that are, that are, that are movable.

[00:18:36] And so we built that market and built that business and that kind of bled into, you know, the other pieces and parts of what we were doing, the other verticals.

[00:18:43] So then we just kind of took that, that mindset and that, you know, that same ideology and we moved it into other verticals.

[00:18:54] Was there, was that a quick shift to managed versus project work?

[00:19:03] Or hardware, or was that a multi-year?

[00:19:06] It was, I would say it's a multi-year.

[00:19:08] I mean, it didn't start out like gangbusters right at the beginning, but once we got some momentum, it, it got some customer base in there.

[00:19:16] Then obviously it, it, it started, you know, growing on its own.

[00:19:20] What were some of the challenges?

[00:19:22] Cause you were really early in that.

[00:19:23] And so when you, you know, now people buy that way, but then that was a, that was a new thing to say, like pay me every month.

[00:19:32] Right.

[00:19:32] Whether it breaks or not, that was a different pitch back then.

[00:19:35] Well, they were buying the, you know, the buying style was different and what these other providers were delivering was different.

[00:19:42] Okay.

[00:19:42] So they had more of a legacy system and we were, we were delivering an IP based system and they were still in, you know, time slot kind of, kind of mentality.

[00:19:51] And it's like, Hey man, no, no.

[00:19:53] Like we're going to just bring you one big pipe and we're going to slice and dice it up and we're going to deliver all your over the top services with it.

[00:19:59] So it was just a transition of technology and then a transition to the way we sold and the transition to the way they bought.

[00:20:06] Hmm.

[00:20:07] That's quite a few transitions there.

[00:20:08] Yeah.

[00:20:09] Right.

[00:20:10] And you got to make them all work.

[00:20:14] Was the transition on the customer side or the, or your team kind of culture side and how you deliver, which one was more challenging?

[00:20:21] Oh, customer, obviously.

[00:20:22] Absolutely.

[00:20:22] Cause they were used to, well, I got to change.

[00:20:25] Yeah.

[00:20:26] Okay.

[00:20:26] And, and, and the problem was, was that you had people that were making decisions on, on the communications, but the IT department was kind of disjointed and disconnected.

[00:20:37] And what we're able to do was go into that customer and bridge that gap form and make IT more strategic to that, that very remote, hard to reach location.

[00:20:49] Hmm.

[00:20:50] And then bring it, then, then take and bring all the corporate resources that you have, whether it be applications or systems or process or whatever, and push it all the way out to the edge.

[00:21:01] So if you've got, you, it sounds like you're niched with maybe not within one, but within energy and healthcare.

[00:21:08] So it sounds like there's a few, for lack of a better way of saying, maybe a few verticals.

[00:21:12] Mm-hmm.

[00:21:12] Um, but with, if you have any, as small as 250 users, all the way up to 30 or 40,000, uh, users, how do you, um, how do you deliver on such a interesting variety?

[00:21:31] Uh, and kind of, I guess when I'm backing into, what does that mean from a culture and hiring and a team perspective, if there's such disparate environments, you know, from a remote oil rig all the way to maybe a huge healthcare system or something like that?

[00:21:44] Well, I mean, first and foremost, you can't throw bodies at it.

[00:21:47] You gotta have processes and you gotta have playbooks and you gotta have systems that support the whole effort because otherwise you can't scale.

[00:21:53] Then you're, then you're trying to throw bodies at it and, you know, people make mistakes.

[00:21:56] So then you're going to be, you know, then your level of service or your customer sat is going to probably take a hit.

[00:22:02] So really we, you know, we, we, we got some great people in the company that really understand the, the operational operationalization of, of, of the organization of a product or delivery service.

[00:22:15] And, um, and they came in and, and we just built all the systems and wherever we're always continuing to improve process and continuing to invest in our systems, um, internally.

[00:22:25] And that's where the, the, the, the, the gap starts to widen because if a customer wants to go out there and, and build the same kind of system that we have, that's a major investment on their part.

[00:22:37] They got to go buy all the, all the, all the applications, all the database platforms, all the servers, all the infrastructure associated with it.

[00:22:44] And it's like, guys, you know, do you really want to invest in all of this?

[00:22:48] Okay.

[00:22:49] All the maintenance and then the upgrades and all the stuff that you got to do every year, or you can just buy the service from us.

[00:22:55] And then you've got access to it all.

[00:22:58] So that was kind of a little bit of a transition and, and, um, you know, with the customer base.

[00:23:03] And, and so once we can create that value proposition associated with the systems, people and processes and tools, then, you know, the sky's the limit because you can scale easily.

[00:23:12] Yeah.

[00:23:13] Yeah.

[00:23:14] That's what I was, was, was getting at.

[00:23:16] And I love to hear that from you, Chris.

[00:23:19] So obviously I agree with you people and process are key or, or you are just throwing bodies at it.

[00:23:23] Yeah.

[00:23:24] And it doesn't work.

[00:23:25] We know it.

[00:23:26] I could tell you, we screwed it up.

[00:23:28] Okay.

[00:23:28] Tell me about that because it's, it's still hitting some of us, some of it.

[00:23:32] And I'm, and I, and when I got some of it, then I, I feel like I mess up the next part.

[00:23:36] Yeah.

[00:23:36] Well, it's, it's, it's really, you know, you gotta have, you gotta have the ability to scale because what you can't have is like high end, um, resources sitting on the front desk, the front line.

[00:23:49] Okay.

[00:23:49] Cause it, your costs are, or just to absorb it.

[00:23:53] Okay.

[00:23:54] So if you can resolve that first 80% of the first calls with your front line support.

[00:23:59] Okay.

[00:24:00] Now you got something.

[00:24:01] Hmm.

[00:24:02] So, and like with AI and everything else, the end of the ability to go in and then search all the tickets, you know, on the fly and try to get as much data in the hands of that frontline person as fast as possible to where they can support that customer.

[00:24:16] Your customer sack goes through the roof.

[00:24:17] Your profitability goes through the roof.

[00:24:19] And then you can continue to refine and work on the business and in the business on, on your, on your processes and tools.

[00:24:27] Were you always a process oriented person?

[00:24:30] No, I'm terrible at it.

[00:24:31] I really am.

[00:24:32] But I got some, I got some people in the organization that are phenomenal with it.

[00:24:36] Okay.

[00:24:37] And I'm like, Hey, that's not my sweet spot.

[00:24:40] Handle it.

[00:24:40] In the earlier days, maybe when you were smaller, were you able to find folks that you could lean on that were more process oriented before you maybe built out leadership team?

[00:24:49] Uh, a little bit.

[00:24:52] Okay.

[00:24:52] I mean, it got us through what we needed to get through.

[00:24:56] Um, did we do it with, you know, with grace?

[00:24:58] Probably not.

[00:24:59] And did we break a lot of stuff?

[00:25:01] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:25:02] Like I said, my, my strong suit is not processes at all.

[00:25:06] And we bring in third parties.

[00:25:08] We bring in consultants to work with us and try to improve our processes and everything else.

[00:25:12] And then, um, then, you know, then we got some, some, some people that came to the team that, that really understood it and, and really were very good at it and had the, had the, you know, the methodology to, to really get in there and figure out how to build a whole process associated with it.

[00:25:30] And then automate that process.

[00:25:32] So we're always looking at, at, if, if, uh, if a team member does X, Y, and Z, and it takes them this much time, Hey, put it on the table.

[00:25:41] Let's talk about it.

[00:25:42] Let's look at it.

[00:25:43] So we're always forever, like looking at a process in our system of, Hey, we're doing this manual or we might start doing a manual, but we know we're going to automate that.

[00:25:52] So really that culture has come in, has, has, has had the trickle down effect in the organization because a lot of these employees are seeing like, seeing that, Hey, we were impacting how they work, live and play.

[00:26:04] All right.

[00:26:05] So when they show up to work, they're like, Hey, well, I used to have to do this and it was so mundane.

[00:26:09] And it was so, you know, um, it was kind of crazy that we were doing this manually.

[00:26:14] And, and, but then we came in and automated.

[00:26:16] They're like, Oh, wow.

[00:26:17] Now I can go focus on this next level of, of, of effort in, in servicing the customer.

[00:26:22] So that was, that was a big deal for us.

[00:26:25] That was a cultural kind of component that changed in our, in our organization.

[00:26:29] I think that culture has got to be there or you lose that.

[00:26:32] It can't just be one person's job, right?

[00:26:34] Culture Trump's Trump strategy for breakfast every, every morning.

[00:26:37] Yeah.

[00:26:38] It, it, it, I don't think it gets enough, um, visibility in a lot of organizations.

[00:26:45] Was that always evident to you?

[00:26:47] No, no, it wasn't.

[00:26:48] The bigger we got, the more I realized that, that culture is a, is a big deal.

[00:26:54] Is there, was a certain size at this many heads or, or something that, that hurt worse?

[00:27:00] I know some folks, they feel like culture's kind of not a big deal when you're a little

[00:27:04] smaller.

[00:27:05] And then they, you know, it seems like sometimes there's just a, there's an aha moment at

[00:27:08] some time in your growth.

[00:27:10] Yeah.

[00:27:11] I, I'd say culture is, is really, you know, it starts at the infancy stage.

[00:27:16] You know, it starts when you're five people.

[00:27:18] Okay.

[00:27:18] Cause you can, there's, everybody knows everything at that point.

[00:27:23] And then as you get to, you know, 10, then it's like, oh, well, not everybody knows everything.

[00:27:28] Then you get to 15 and then 20, then 30, then four, then a hundred, then 200 and, you

[00:27:32] know, so forth.

[00:27:33] Have you been able to glean anything from that and how you hire for culture versus just

[00:27:41] skill?

[00:27:42] I mean, obviously we use a lot of data points, um, with, with surveys and analytical tools

[00:27:49] that, that we, that we work with, um, predictive analysis and disc profiles and, you know, all

[00:27:55] those pieces and parts.

[00:27:56] Um, because we all know that, that a bad hire is, is uber expensive.

[00:28:03] Number one, number two is it just puts you that foot, that further behind.

[00:28:07] So we want, we'd rather take a little bit of extra time and, and ensure that we have the

[00:28:12] right person with the right fit.

[00:28:14] Then, um, then making a bad hire just to fill, fill a head count.

[00:28:19] I totally get that.

[00:28:20] I can definitely relate to that and doing it wrong.

[00:28:23] Yeah.

[00:28:24] We did it wrong for a long time now.

[00:28:26] You know, and then now we've got a great, um, HR leader and she does a phenomenal job

[00:28:31] for us.

[00:28:32] And what size did you decide to, this makes sense to have like somebody leading HR?

[00:28:37] We always had an HR person, but I think that, you know, the current person that's in there,

[00:28:43] she's been with us a long time and really she's, she's, she's really taken it to the next level.

[00:28:48] And, and really she keeps a very good pulse on the company from a culture standpoint and,

[00:28:53] you know, feedback.

[00:28:54] And, you know, we take a lot from our employees and, and we invest a lot in our employees, not

[00:28:59] just our, our systems, but also our employees.

[00:29:01] So, you know, they need to be trained on the latest and greatest, you know, services and

[00:29:06] equipment and everything else and understand our tool set that we use to, to, to automate

[00:29:10] with.

[00:29:11] And, um, so it's not just investing in the systems, it's investing in the people also.

[00:29:16] I feel like that is usually some hat the owner ends up wearing for quite a while.

[00:29:21] Um, is there any advice you have?

[00:29:24] If it sounds like you had somebody forever using your words, uh, that was looking out

[00:29:28] for culture or HR?

[00:29:30] Well, it, like I said, she grew, she grew it into it.

[00:29:35] It wasn't from day one and, um, and she did, she did a great job.

[00:29:39] So yeah, it's, it takes a little, it takes a little time and a little energy, but it's,

[00:29:44] it certainly has a dividend payback.

[00:29:46] I wanted to just ask, so what's you've continued to be on the, the top 500 lists and so many other

[00:29:53] lists, Chris, is there, uh, I don't know if it's a secret or a pattern to how you guys

[00:29:59] are able to continue to, cause sales growth is one thing, team growth and culture growth

[00:30:03] and systems like you've got to keep all this.

[00:30:06] Is there any, uh, words of wisdom you have for other aspiring, you know, MSPs that are,

[00:30:11] you know, some of them are at, some of them are maybe your peers, but some of them are

[00:30:15] at five or 10 employees and they're just, you know, I know sometimes that that's us.

[00:30:19] That seems like there's already enough to do, um, any, any secret or, or, uh, or, or

[00:30:25] wisdom you would, you would give?

[00:30:29] Uh, you know, let me think about that.

[00:30:32] So I would say pick your lane and stay in it.

[00:30:37] Okay.

[00:30:38] Meaning that don't, don't go out there and just do everything for a dollar, because if

[00:30:45] you do, you're just setting yourself up for failure and it takes, you know, it, it, it,

[00:30:50] it takes somebody kind of with on the throttle of, Hey, yeah, let's go.

[00:30:53] Let's hold up.

[00:30:55] Let's, let's move this forward.

[00:30:56] Because what you don't want is, is, Hey, I got this brand new customer and I didn't

[00:31:00] have the resources of service and support them.

[00:31:02] And so then they got through, you know, the, the, the, the contract in, in, they pull

[00:31:08] the plug on it.

[00:31:09] So you got, so for every dollar you're bringing in, you got $2 leaving out the back.

[00:31:12] Okay.

[00:31:12] Or every dollar you bring it in, you got a dollar leaving out the back.

[00:31:15] So the churn component of it is a big deal.

[00:31:18] And, but focus in, understand, you know, what's your lane and stay in it and, and, and, and

[00:31:25] fix your tech stack.

[00:31:26] Okay.

[00:31:27] If you say, Hey, well, I'm, I could do HP Juniper, you know, Cisco, this, that, and the

[00:31:32] other, like you're not going to be your master or none.

[00:31:36] Yeah.

[00:31:37] And so pick your tech stack.

[00:31:40] And then when you've got a customer that's not in that tech stack, figure out how to get

[00:31:43] them in that tech stack, because that's where you're going to maximize your profitability

[00:31:47] and you're going to maximize your customer set.

[00:31:49] Do you have any advice from a practical perspective of how much leeway, you know, they don't fit

[00:31:55] my tech stack exactly, but maybe they're in the niche.

[00:31:58] Do I give them forever?

[00:31:59] Do I give them a certain amount of time?

[00:32:01] Obviously there's hardware and budget.

[00:32:03] So it's, it's working through, everyone's different.

[00:32:05] So you got to work through the hardware and the budget.

[00:32:07] Okay.

[00:32:08] Hey, this is what we're going to do first.

[00:32:10] And, um, you know, a lot of times we just go in and we just wrap a whole deal deal together

[00:32:14] and just say, Hey, Mr. Customer, we're going to do a tech refresh for you.

[00:32:18] And it's, it's all included in this more than monthly price.

[00:32:21] And, you know, after the contract's up, if you want to re-up it at another three years,

[00:32:25] then we'll do a whole tech refresh for you at that point in time.

[00:32:28] And that's all included in the price.

[00:32:31] So it's very predictable, um, for the customer and we achieve, we achieve moving them in our

[00:32:38] tech stack and we get a customer, a customer sat associated with it.

[00:32:41] Yeah.

[00:32:42] No, you're not selling a service contract.

[00:32:45] Yeah, no, it's got everything.

[00:32:46] You're delivering an outcome at that point.

[00:32:49] And that's, and that's way different than just delivering managed services to a customer.

[00:32:53] Cause at that point you're owning all the hardware and everything else associated with it.

[00:32:56] And so you got to service it, support it.

[00:32:59] And if, if it breaks, it's on you.

[00:33:02] Yeah.

[00:33:03] So is that, has that been your history?

[00:33:05] It's kind of own everything.

[00:33:07] Yeah.

[00:33:07] The whole, the whole stack.

[00:33:09] Cause the whole stack.

[00:33:11] A lot of people do computers, but I don't think a lot of people made the transition to owning the, you know, we'll, we'll order it, but they don't always own the, uh, what you call Dell or HP.

[00:33:22] You're, you know.

[00:33:23] Yeah.

[00:33:23] Yeah.

[00:33:24] You gotta have, um, you know, you gotta have the balance sheet to do it.

[00:33:28] You gotta have the working capital to do it.

[00:33:29] So not everybody can afford to do it.

[00:33:31] And a lot of these, you know, 74% of the MSPs out there are less than $5 million in revenue.

[00:33:36] So really how much room do they have on a balance sheet to go order hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment and get paid back over a three year period of time?

[00:33:43] Yeah.

[00:33:44] So most of them can't afford it.

[00:33:47] So when we, you know, when we look at it, it's just a different, that's just the nature of doing business.

[00:33:52] It's capital intensive.

[00:33:53] Yeah.

[00:33:54] I mean, but if you're betting, if you're making that kind of bet on them, then, uh, then that, then that's gonna, it's going to make it easier for them.

[00:34:00] But you know, you're really, if I hear what you're saying, Chris, you're putting your money where your mouth is.

[00:34:04] Right.

[00:34:04] You know, you're not just saying I'm going to sign you to three year contract and then I'm going to try to upsell you and resell you and change your hardware and do that.

[00:34:12] And then with all these extra fees, because I maybe couldn't differentiate and I had to compete to win.

[00:34:18] And so I sold you the contract and barely eked in.

[00:34:22] That's not really kind of a place that we play, you know, it's just, we're going to be very selective about what we're going to chase.

[00:34:29] And, you know, if we, if we, if we're not creating the value for the customer and they're not, they don't see that value, then either we're doing a poor job of, of setting ourselves up in the account or the customer is just not getting it.

[00:34:40] And maybe they're not a good fit for us.

[00:34:42] I wanted to, to switch gears for a moment.

[00:34:45] Um, and you've been doing this for quite a while and I'd love to know if there was one thing you could do over.

[00:34:53] What would that be?

[00:34:55] I don't really do do overs because I just look forward.

[00:34:59] Seriously.

[00:34:59] Like if, if we screw it up and we look, we make mistakes.

[00:35:01] We're human.

[00:35:02] Okay.

[00:35:02] Sure.

[00:35:03] But it's make the mistake, do it quickly and fix it fast.

[00:35:07] All right.

[00:35:08] And, and just continue to move forward.

[00:35:10] So if I, I just, I can't dwell on the past, you know, it's like, Hey, we made mistakes.

[00:35:16] Hey, we screwed that one up.

[00:35:17] All right, let's fix it.

[00:35:18] And let's ensure it doesn't happen again.

[00:35:19] And this is how we're going to do it.

[00:35:20] And this is how we're going to take care of the customer.

[00:35:21] Or, or this is how we're going to fix this internally.

[00:35:25] Yeah.

[00:35:25] And I'd love to ask you this, but that sounds like that bleed that permeates into your culture.

[00:35:31] Absolutely.

[00:35:32] Cause it's, it's, if a, if a, a director or executive makes, makes a decision, then, Hey,

[00:35:38] I'm going to hold you accountable to it.

[00:35:41] If you screwed it up.

[00:35:42] Okay.

[00:35:42] What are you going to do to fix it?

[00:35:44] Yeah.

[00:35:45] And we all learn from it.

[00:35:46] Yeah.

[00:35:47] That's the key, right?

[00:35:48] All learning from it.

[00:35:49] Right.

[00:35:49] I know there's a lot of folks that sometimes will share, I made this decision and then,

[00:35:53] you know, it really costs us a ton, either a team member, a client dollars, whatever.

[00:35:59] Oh yeah.

[00:36:00] I've done them all.

[00:36:01] Right.

[00:36:02] We all done that.

[00:36:03] Yeah.

[00:36:03] I've done them all.

[00:36:04] Yeah.

[00:36:06] What's a common myth about running an MSP that you'd like to bust?

[00:36:11] That it's easy.

[00:36:13] It's not.

[00:36:14] It's not.

[00:36:15] There's a lot of moving parts with it.

[00:36:16] It seems easy.

[00:36:17] Well, Hey, let's get a couple of computers and a solar winds and throw a couple of bodies

[00:36:20] at it and let it rip.

[00:36:22] But it's just, you know, to scale them and build them.

[00:36:25] It's, it's, it's not an easy deal and it's not easy running, you know, transition to cut

[00:36:30] a company from a non-recurring kind of VAR, VAR atmosphere to an MRR managed services atmosphere.

[00:36:37] It's, it's a hard transition and you got to get it right.

[00:36:41] And it's, it's, it's a bumpy road because as soon as you start seeing the revenues start

[00:36:46] to dip because the hardware is going away and the services are coming up, you know, everybody

[00:36:51] freaks out and runs back to the, to the hardware.

[00:36:53] That's right.

[00:36:54] Yeah.

[00:36:54] It's easy.

[00:36:55] When you got a $200,000 hardware, it's great.

[00:36:57] And then, but when you sold a $5,000 a month contract, that that's a big difference in revenue

[00:37:01] for quite a while.

[00:37:02] It's a big difference.

[00:37:03] So you got to get it right.

[00:37:06] It's, it's not an easy transition.

[00:37:07] We did it and we did it early on and it was a, it was a little bit difficult, but we made

[00:37:14] it.

[00:37:15] So, and there's probably a lot of companies that won't make it out there.

[00:37:18] Well, speaking of that, we've talked about so many different things.

[00:37:22] What is it that you're looking forward to the most?

[00:37:24] What do you see in the future, whether it's your business or the industry?

[00:37:27] I would say that, you know, there's a lot of hype around AI and everything else, but

[00:37:31] I really want to see the impact of what it's got, what is going to happen in, in kind

[00:37:36] of the self-service component of this thing and how it's going to enable people to adapt

[00:37:42] technology and platforms very easily.

[00:37:47] Because, you know, now it's becoming that self-service piece of, Hey, I need X and it

[00:37:52] gives you Y.

[00:37:53] Okay.

[00:37:54] So I really think that it's, it's going to be a whole kind of the next internet revolution.

[00:38:01] And, and I want to see the impact of it in, because it's going to transition our business

[00:38:05] in a, in a, in a very large way.

[00:38:08] The thing is, is that, you know, you got to have some controls on it.

[00:38:12] You just can't let it just, you know, you know, lay in the wind and whatever happens,

[00:38:17] happens.

[00:38:17] Let's see where the cards fall.

[00:38:18] That's right.

[00:38:19] So when I look at it, at the, the AI and what's going to happen in the, in the space,

[00:38:25] I mean, customers need tons of help in there because the, you know, you start deploying

[00:38:30] it and all of a sudden I say, Hey, well, what's Chris's payroll?

[00:38:33] Boom.

[00:38:33] And it's, it's, it's all front and center.

[00:38:35] Hey, what's, let me show me all these HR records, you know, and the next thing you know,

[00:38:39] you've got, you know, different compliance violations and everything else in, in HR issues

[00:38:44] and HR laws and all this other stuff that, that kind of evolve around it.

[00:38:49] Yeah.

[00:38:50] So.

[00:38:51] But used correctly, I think it's, I think it is a game changer.

[00:38:54] You're more, are you seeing that more impacting your business in terms of efficiencies or opportunity

[00:39:00] to help the client?

[00:39:02] Oh, both.

[00:39:02] It's, it's a, it's a definitely both.

[00:39:07] How, how do you, um, I agree with you.

[00:39:10] How do you, uh, where are we now from your opinion with AI?

[00:39:15] Is this something we can actually help with our clients with?

[00:39:18] Is it something we need to wait on to mature?

[00:39:21] It's maturing at a rapid pace right now.

[00:39:25] And so first and foremost, what we do as a company is, is we want to implement it internally

[00:39:31] first.

[00:39:31] We want to screw it up as much as we can on us.

[00:39:33] Okay.

[00:39:34] Yes.

[00:39:34] We like to operate on us first.

[00:39:36] Okay.

[00:39:36] Hey, we never took out a gallbladder.

[00:39:38] Okay.

[00:39:38] Let's try one of us.

[00:39:40] See if we snore off.

[00:39:41] Yeah.

[00:39:41] Hey, we made it.

[00:39:42] Okay.

[00:39:43] Yeah.

[00:39:44] Um, so yeah, we want to do it first on us, then, then push it out to the customer.

[00:39:49] Then we'd say, Hey, listen, it's, it's new.

[00:39:51] It's early on.

[00:39:52] This is what we did internally.

[00:39:53] And this is the results that we found.

[00:39:56] Okay.

[00:39:56] Well, let's, let's start a pilot with you guys in this area.

[00:40:01] And this is what it looks like.

[00:40:04] And so you just scratch the surface with it.

[00:40:06] Then, then it continues to grow and scale.

[00:40:09] Well, where's your best guess where you think that might be?

[00:40:11] Oh man.

[00:40:13] I, you know, I would think in the next, you know, 24 to 36 months, it's going to be, you

[00:40:18] know, it's going to start to become that mainstream.

[00:40:21] Yeah.

[00:40:23] But it's going to be self-service, self-serving.

[00:40:27] So, you know, you could have a, um, an AI, uh, um, recording engine just say, Hey, uh,

[00:40:35] you know, call ABC.

[00:40:36] Then after that, when we hang up, call this guy, call it, you know, so it's just, it's

[00:40:40] voice activated.

[00:40:41] You can just run it, run it off of that.

[00:40:43] I mean, we're already using it from, you know, meeting notes to, uh, a variety of different

[00:40:48] things out there.

[00:40:50] Do you, do you feel strongly it'll impact one area of the business over another or not?

[00:40:54] Across the board.

[00:40:55] Yeah.

[00:40:56] Every facet from HR to sales to operations to, I mean, cause sales, okay, I want to, I need

[00:41:03] to write, um, an intro letter.

[00:41:05] Okay.

[00:41:06] Boom.

[00:41:07] It just spits it out and you can, it gets you 90% of the way there.

[00:41:11] Yeah.

[00:41:11] All right.

[00:41:12] Then starting from zero.

[00:41:13] So 90%, then you just tweak it and send it.

[00:41:17] I love that.

[00:41:18] And then from the operational standpoint, Hey, I need, I need a playbook to do an implementation

[00:41:22] of a plasma center.

[00:41:24] Boom.

[00:41:24] Here's our whole playbook available to, to any, any employee.

[00:41:29] Yeah.

[00:41:29] And obviously incredibly powerful if you can leverage all the knowledge you already have.

[00:41:33] Absolutely.

[00:41:34] Oh, but it's, it's, you gotta have, if, if you got junky data, bad data, you're going

[00:41:39] to get a bad outcome.

[00:41:41] I'm so glad you said that.

[00:41:42] I think there's a lot of MSPs that are missing that part because they're, their data house

[00:41:46] is not in order.

[00:41:47] Right.

[00:41:48] And you're going to, you're going to be a little behind if you're, if your house isn't in order.

[00:41:51] Then you got to clean it all up.

[00:41:53] Yeah.

[00:41:53] Every bit of it.

[00:41:54] And that takes quite a bit of time.

[00:41:55] It does.

[00:41:56] Yeah.

[00:41:57] It really does.

[00:42:00] What's the, what's the number one book you would recommend?

[00:42:03] What's made a big impact on your life?

[00:42:05] Oh, uh, you know, I just, um, I just read one and, um, it's by Jennifer.

[00:42:12] Jennifer bleem and it's simplified cybersecurity sales for MSPs.

[00:42:18] Nice.

[00:42:18] Jennifer's got really good stuff.

[00:42:20] Yeah.

[00:42:20] So when you look at it and I'll listen to it, uh, you know, I'll listen to it in the gym

[00:42:25] in the morning and, and it's, it's, it's a, not a long list.

[00:42:28] And it's like, you know, maybe two hours, but she really like her approaches is, is, is,

[00:42:34] you know, she has some Sandler approach in there.

[00:42:36] She's got some tech strategy approach in there.

[00:42:39] She's got, you know, so, um, but overall it's, uh, she, she nails it.

[00:42:44] And, and I really liked the way that she kind of puts it together and you know, how she, how

[00:42:50] she handles the rebuttals and different things of that nature.

[00:42:52] And I think that, that, you know, sales reps today have kind of lost some of the art of

[00:42:57] selling through COVID.

[00:42:58] Okay.

[00:42:59] They, it kind of made them, I hate to say this lazy a little bit.

[00:43:02] Okay.

[00:43:03] They don't want to be hunting as hard as, as hard as they used to hunt anymore.

[00:43:06] And they want everything kind of hand delivered or spoon fed to them.

[00:43:09] It's like, no, you got to get out there and, and, and you got to mix it up, you know,

[00:43:13] cause if you don't, somebody else is.

[00:43:15] And so what she's saying is that, um, you know, the discovery process is more about the

[00:43:20] customer than you.

[00:43:21] And, and, and that's absolutely right because, you know, whether you call it discovery or

[00:43:26] heat mapping, or there's probably some other terms associated with it, you know, through

[00:43:30] the sales process, understanding what your sales process is and being very true to it and

[00:43:35] holding your standards high associated with it and establishing and understand, like, if you're

[00:43:39] at step two, you can't go to step four, you got to go to step two, three, four, five, six.

[00:43:44] Okay.

[00:43:45] To get to that close point.

[00:43:46] Otherwise by skipping a step, you're only wasting your time because a customer will come

[00:43:52] back and say, well, well, yeah, give me, you know, and a rep will get happy years.

[00:43:56] And, and cause they want to hear is say, oh, the customer asked me for a proposal on this.

[00:44:00] Well, they run and go do a proposal.

[00:44:01] They waste all those solutions, architect time, their time, inside sales time.

[00:44:05] You know, the most expensive thing you need to do is put a proposal together and then they

[00:44:08] go back to give, deliver to the customer and the customers move to Afghanistan and live

[00:44:12] in a cave.

[00:44:13] They can't find them.

[00:44:14] Okay.

[00:44:14] So it's like, dude, why did you wait?

[00:44:17] You had no upfront contracts.

[00:44:18] So why did you waste all the time with this customer, you know, or prospect when they were

[00:44:23] not even anywhere near ready to buy?

[00:44:25] You didn't talk about budget.

[00:44:26] You didn't talk about outcomes.

[00:44:27] You didn't talk about like all the things that are extremely important prior to building

[00:44:32] a proposal and having an upfront contract with a customer.

[00:44:35] Yes.

[00:44:36] And detect a little Sandler training maybe in your.

[00:44:38] Oh, yeah.

[00:44:39] We, I mean, I've been through, through, you know, numerous of them.

[00:44:42] We used Sandler from the beginning and then we moved to tech strategy because it was more

[00:44:46] industry kind of focused and she's doing the same thing.

[00:44:49] It's so she's kind of more aligned in that, in, in our vertical space.

[00:44:54] And so it was just interesting to listen to, you know, to her book.

[00:44:57] What's the biggest thing you would share with

[00:45:01] yourself from 10 or 15 or 20 years ago?

[00:45:05] I don't know.

[00:45:06] I mean, you know, like I said, there's so much that's changed.

[00:45:09] I mean, COVID really kind of flipped our whole industry on upside down.

[00:45:13] And so it's kind of hard to reflect back 10 to 15 years and say, okay, how do you apply

[00:45:16] that today?

[00:45:17] All right.

[00:45:18] And then the technology has done, has gone through leaps and bounds in these major

[00:45:22] shifts in transition.

[00:45:23] And we're about to go through a major shift in transition.

[00:45:25] You know, it's been pretty quiet since COVID and, and everything up to now.

[00:45:30] But I think that, that this whole AI is going to accelerate a major track transition

[00:45:35] that that's coming down the pipe for us.

[00:45:37] And when there's, when there's transition, there's winners and losers.

[00:45:40] That's right.

[00:45:41] Okay.

[00:45:42] And you've got to position yourself to be a winner.

[00:45:45] And, and what are you doing to prepare today?

[00:45:47] What's your strategy?

[00:45:49] What tech stack are you going with?

[00:45:51] How are you going to integrate it into your customers?

[00:45:53] How are you going to deliver it?

[00:45:55] Do you have the right resources to deliver it?

[00:45:56] Do you need a partner to deliver it first?

[00:45:58] Okay.

[00:46:00] And you know, there's some companies out there that are just, that's all they are is

[00:46:03] just an AI company.

[00:46:04] And that those might be, you know, organizations you want to partner with.

[00:46:08] That way you can bring them in.

[00:46:10] You learn from them.

[00:46:11] You do the first two or three with them.

[00:46:13] Then you can kind of go out on your own and do it the way you want.

[00:46:16] Yes.

[00:46:17] I think a lot of people, maybe some of the smarter ones, approach cybersecurity the same

[00:46:22] way.

[00:46:23] Yeah.

[00:46:24] So, I mean, we got into cyber business years ago and, and you know, we were on a 24 hour

[00:46:29] day, seven a week security operations center, which is separate from our network operations

[00:46:33] center.

[00:46:33] That's all they do is handle security.

[00:46:35] They're not okay.

[00:46:36] Well, Hey, I got a hosted voice, you know, problem coming in.

[00:46:40] I'll take that.

[00:46:40] You know, no, all they do is just security.

[00:46:43] That's it.

[00:46:44] So we, we specialized all those resources in, in that area and they're kind of, you know,

[00:46:49] almost firewalled off, you know, from, from our network operations center because that's

[00:46:53] all they deal with is, is security.

[00:46:55] Yeah.

[00:46:56] Yeah.

[00:46:56] You got to keep that separator.

[00:46:58] You'll miss something.

[00:46:59] Yeah.

[00:47:00] And it's, it's, it's a huge liability.

[00:47:02] It's a huge asset and, you know, you can't make mistakes.

[00:47:08] You got to do it right.

[00:47:09] And if you got a problem, you got to raise your hand.

[00:47:12] Yeah.

[00:47:12] Yeah.

[00:47:13] Yeah.

[00:47:13] I love that.

[00:47:14] Coming back to the culture though.

[00:47:16] Sounds like it's, it's really deeply ingrained in everybody there.

[00:47:20] Absolutely.

[00:47:22] Well, Chris, I have thoroughly enjoyed this.

[00:47:26] If, if you're open to it and what folks would love to learn more, other peers would like

[00:47:31] to connect.

[00:47:32] What's the best way for them to find you?

[00:47:35] Yeah.

[00:47:35] I mean, LinkedIn.

[00:47:36] Okay.

[00:47:37] Yeah.

[00:47:38] Send me, send me an invitation on LinkedIn.

[00:47:40] Okay.

[00:47:41] Pretty much most of them.

[00:47:43] Awesome.

[00:47:43] All right.

[00:47:44] Don't make, don't miss out that opportunity to connect with Chris.

[00:47:47] So many different things I've learned today and so many different ways that you're approaching

[00:47:51] business.

[00:47:52] I love the different lens you have on it.

[00:47:54] Um, and I, I'd love to keep you all day, but I won't.

[00:47:58] So, uh, really, really appreciate this today, Chris.

[00:48:01] Yep.

[00:48:01] Same here.

[00:48:02] Thank you for being on MSP Mindset.

[00:48:03] Yeah.

[00:48:03] Thanks for having me.

[00:48:04] See ya.

[00:48:05] Bye.