30 Year MSP Shares His Tips For Your Success, with Alan Crowetz (MSP Titan #3)

[00:00:00] I had to give a speech to my staff. It's my fault. And I actually had to go to them in

[00:00:04] our last staff meeting and said, look, when an Allen event comes up, that doesn't mean

[00:00:08] stop everything else. You know, just I may have something I'm gonna bring up like that.

[00:00:11] But trust me, taking care of the clients handling our backup management handling dot

[00:00:15] our portals. That's more important. Unless I specifically tell you this is an emergency,

[00:00:19] you know, please because I kept catching people and you know, they're trying to

[00:00:22] please me and they're trying to do the right thing. And then I realized like,

[00:00:25] I'm the problem. Stop, you know, disrupting their workflow.

[00:00:34] Hey guys, Damien Stevens, host of MSP Mindset. Today, I got the pleasure of speaking

[00:00:40] with Alan Croetz. We got to talk about how he spent over 30 years building his MSP.

[00:00:48] If you'd like to get the wisdom of how he gets out of his comfort zone and build

[00:00:52] something in a different area that he's uncomfortable with, the lessons he's

[00:00:56] learned from building a team and keeping that team for so long, and the secret

[00:01:01] talent that he developed even as a tech guy that most of us never get around to.

[00:01:06] Don't miss out on our conversation. So tell me.

[00:01:12] So, you know, I've always been education oriented in the family I grew up in

[00:01:16] grew up without very much money, but new all about hard work and success.

[00:01:21] And so in my mind, I always had a roadmap, you know, what's next?

[00:01:25] You know, if you finish high school, you go to college. All right.

[00:01:27] What's next? If you finish college, you go to graduate school.

[00:01:29] That what's next? And back when I was doing it, the economy was going

[00:01:33] through all kinds of change and, you know, difficult times for people.

[00:01:37] And my goal was to get into a Fortune 500 company in some kind of executive

[00:01:42] training program that puts you on a roadmap.

[00:01:44] So then four or five years, you're in some kind of, you know, executive

[00:01:47] position and moving on up through IBM, which believe it or not, that was

[00:01:50] a big company back in the day. Oh, I hope I can with IBM or AT&T or,

[00:01:54] you know, Microsoft who's, you know, they're they're small.

[00:01:57] You know, so there was a lot of, you know, goal for that.

[00:02:01] And when I got out, all the big companies were laying off, you know,

[00:02:04] the economy was in a downward, you know, spiral to a degree.

[00:02:09] And so I found work as an accounting, you know, I would get a job

[00:02:13] in accounting, for example, and they would quickly see I had good skills.

[00:02:17] So I always did kind of, you know, IT, you know, was very

[00:02:19] fascinated by it, enjoyed it on the side, got to be good at it.

[00:02:22] And so they would quickly figure out is that, hey, I would take

[00:02:25] three weeks of work and get it done one a day because I would automate

[00:02:29] something as simple as Lotus 123 for anybody who even remembers what that is.

[00:02:33] You know, I'd make macros and shortcuts and I'd find out like this is

[00:02:36] real repetitive. Let me see if I can, you know, oh, I can dump right

[00:02:40] from the accounting program. Every keys is in manually.

[00:02:42] Why don't I dump it in and then clean it up and, you know, whatever.

[00:02:45] So next thing you know, I'm like, that's done.

[00:02:46] Like it's impossible that's done.

[00:02:48] And they realize, you know, you got, you know, you're making things

[00:02:50] better, show other people.

[00:02:52] And of course, you know, and I was young and naive, they weren't.

[00:02:55] They would wrote me right into it, you know, into the IT world.

[00:02:58] I'm like, no, I want to use IT as a turbo booster.

[00:03:01] I don't want to use it as my career.

[00:03:03] I am a firm believer even then if you're in accounting and you have

[00:03:06] computer skills, you're a better accountant.

[00:03:08] If you're a lawyer and you have good computer skills, you're a better lawyer.

[00:03:11] You know, it amplifies vice versa.

[00:03:13] If you're bad in IT, it probably hurts your career to a degree.

[00:03:16] So I want to use it as a booster.

[00:03:18] But if I go on IT, it's no longer a booster.

[00:03:19] It is my profession.

[00:03:21] So I left, went to a financial planning firm and real quickly, same kind of

[00:03:28] thing happened, started to do this financial plan.

[00:03:29] I loved it.

[00:03:30] I learned a lot.

[00:03:30] I was doing really well with it.

[00:03:32] And but then real quickly like, wow, we really want to use some of the

[00:03:35] things you're doing in the IT world.

[00:03:37] Let's get you over there.

[00:03:38] So long story short, I had side clients.

[00:03:42] I want to say my first client was I had to give a speech in college

[00:03:47] and about computer technology or whatever it was.

[00:03:49] And some of the class worked for a funeral home.

[00:03:53] And after the speech came up to me and said, Hey, my boss is freaking out.

[00:03:56] The state requires certain documents for a funeral, blah, blah.

[00:03:59] He lost them.

[00:04:00] He doesn't have these documents on a funeral or a death.

[00:04:02] We're in real trouble.

[00:04:04] You know, it's like walking distance from here.

[00:04:06] You know, do you think he could help me out?

[00:04:07] Be happy to help him.

[00:04:08] And I went over there used, and this is really dating me,

[00:04:11] Norton uninstall to recover a deleted file from like ancient days.

[00:04:16] The guy was so ecstatic, so relieved because he was in so much trouble.

[00:04:20] He gave me like a $50 bill, which in the time I'm talking about,

[00:04:24] he may as well have handed me a Lamborghini.

[00:04:26] That was the reaction on my face when he gave it to me.

[00:04:28] So I'm like, all right, maybe there's something to this when I'm making,

[00:04:30] you know, minimum wage, you know, when I was in school was nuts,

[00:04:33] nuts and nothing.

[00:04:35] So I started picking up stuff on the side here and there.

[00:04:38] And so after a couple of corporate jobs that kind of kept roping me to IT,

[00:04:42] I'm like, if I'm going to go into IT, I'm going to do my own thing.

[00:04:45] And so I just started deciding to take the leap and go into my own clients

[00:04:49] and build them up and go from there.

[00:04:51] And it was a good decision.

[00:04:53] So I'm curious, for a way of listening, like how did you

[00:04:57] go from one guy giving you 50 bucks to now I'm going to start a company?

[00:05:02] Was it what did you just the next day?

[00:05:04] I mean, were there a lot of things in between?

[00:05:05] No, I think what happened was is the word that was my side.

[00:05:09] I had no interest in, you know, that was not it.

[00:05:11] I'm going to go work for IBM as a executive and who knows where.

[00:05:16] And I was really gunning for it.

[00:05:17] I remember downloading the top five, you know, the Fortune 500 companies

[00:05:20] and they're who to send the resumes to for them.

[00:05:22] But on the side when you're making, you know, this trivial, you know,

[00:05:26] I think the minimum wage back there was like 380 or something

[00:05:29] like the $3.80.

[00:05:31] And someone's, you know, and like, I'm going to charge $20 an hour.

[00:05:34] No one's going to do this.

[00:05:35] No one's going to pay for me.

[00:05:35] And like people were just like, you know, every time they would hear about it.

[00:05:38] And this is kind of thing.

[00:05:39] You you're an elevator after helping somebody out and someone's go,

[00:05:42] what do you know, you talk, what do you do?

[00:05:43] And like, hey, we have a problem.

[00:05:45] And in those days, it was the easier.

[00:05:46] Now now it's hyper competitive for sure.

[00:05:48] But in those days, you couldn't find IT people, you know,

[00:05:51] there was brand new to companies for the most part, you know, practicality.

[00:05:56] And, you know, friends knew I did it, you know, and so invariably it would come up.

[00:06:00] And so I had no idea about marketing, no idea how to do this.

[00:06:03] But I would pick up more and more clients and their beautiful thing

[00:06:06] about our world is it's recurring.

[00:06:09] You know, if they have one problem one day,

[00:06:10] they're going to have more problems down the road and call you more.

[00:06:13] So I stumbled into all this.

[00:06:14] No, no brilliance behind this at all.

[00:06:16] Just walked right into this.

[00:06:17] And so after my second career, you know, professional job and the economy

[00:06:22] was still doing very bad and I kept getting roped into IT.

[00:06:24] I finally decided to do it.

[00:06:26] Now, admittedly, that was a huge leap to go from a small salary.

[00:06:31] I mean, I was still new to my career, so it wasn't a giant salary to drop

[00:06:34] that down to your career.

[00:06:36] What's that?

[00:06:37] What was that?

[00:06:38] That was the financial planning was the last company I worked for.

[00:06:41] And so to leave that paycheck and to go with my clients were hidden

[00:06:46] myths, you know, just side stuff, you know, little things here and there.

[00:06:48] I might go a couple of weeks with no one calling me and decide,

[00:06:51] all right, I'm going to dive into this.

[00:06:53] I had an MBA, so at least I was familiar with marketing

[00:06:55] and getting the word out there.

[00:06:56] And some of the business practices which helped.

[00:06:59] But, you know, when the clients fell in my lap, that's not such a big deal.

[00:07:03] But when you have to realize like, look, I'm not going to pay

[00:07:05] the electric bill, let's go find some.

[00:07:07] You know, that was a very new experience and, you know, terrifying experience.

[00:07:10] But fortunately, within a year, I, you know, was back making my salary.

[00:07:14] And then from there, just, you know, kept going up and it grew.

[00:07:17] And I learned more about, you know, what to do and what not to do in starting

[00:07:21] info stream.

[00:07:23] Hey guys, today's episode is sponsored by Cervosity.

[00:07:28] I created Cervosity because I was an MSP that lost data.

[00:07:33] Then I had to go in front of my client and tell them I can't recover.

[00:07:37] If you've ever been there or worried that you would be there, then you may

[00:07:42] want to take a look at Cervosity.

[00:07:43] We do two things that nobody else is crazy enough to do.

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[00:08:10] So 30 years is quite a, quite a 10 years still going.

[00:08:15] If you had one thing to change, if you don't have 30 years,

[00:08:20] if you're doing it differently, what would that be?

[00:08:22] I think, believe it or not, it's kind of what you're doing with this video.

[00:08:26] I wish I had done more peer to peer,

[00:08:29] you know, meetings and reviews and got together with people.

[00:08:33] In the early days, I saw everybody as my competition,

[00:08:36] as my competition, big surprise.

[00:08:38] And I didn't want to share trade secrets.

[00:08:40] I didn't want to network with them.

[00:08:41] I didn't want to, you know, whatever.

[00:08:42] I mean, that wasn't rude, but it wasn't like my goal.

[00:08:44] And I realized now, no, successful people, even competitors,

[00:08:48] love helping other successful people.

[00:08:50] And then if you sit down with them and you're open and sharing what you can

[00:08:54] share and helping them and whatever, it comes around really well

[00:08:58] with those who get it, not everybody gets it.

[00:09:00] And I think I would have had a much more exponential growth

[00:09:04] if I had started doing that earlier, you know,

[00:09:07] finding out what other people are doing, you know, sharing, you know,

[00:09:10] everything from the employee handbook to your contract to how do you solve

[00:09:14] this problem? How do you hire?

[00:09:15] If I had done that in the early days, I think I would have had much more growth.

[00:09:20] Yeah, we all have the same problems.

[00:09:21] Yeah.

[00:09:22] Right.

[00:09:22] When we humble ourselves and realize we're all struggling with some of the

[00:09:25] same questions.

[00:09:26] Yeah, 100 percent.

[00:09:28] And I seriously doubt the trade secrets in your contract.

[00:09:32] Yes, exactly.

[00:09:33] Or your handbook.

[00:09:35] I had to give credit to one of my competitors did that to me.

[00:09:38] We ended up being, you know, best friends now for, you know,

[00:09:41] I don't know, 15, 20 years.

[00:09:42] And one day he called to lunch.

[00:09:45] I never met the guy with four or five competitors.

[00:09:47] And I thought, oh, this guy, well, he's going to take four or five

[00:09:50] competitors at the light.

[00:09:51] He must be selling something.

[00:09:52] What's what's going on here?

[00:09:53] And I had a pure curiosity that went with him.

[00:09:56] And half the group didn't get it.

[00:09:58] Some of the group did get it.

[00:09:59] And I, him and I, for some reason, clicked and this guy was like,

[00:10:02] hey, you know my contract?

[00:10:03] Here's my contract.

[00:10:04] Like, you're going to give me your contract that you paid, you

[00:10:06] know, $5,000 for the attorney to get done.

[00:10:08] Just give it to me.

[00:10:09] And he did.

[00:10:10] And then I was like, well, then I'm I'll give you my marketing,

[00:10:13] you know, book or whatever the case.

[00:10:14] And, you know, he took that.

[00:10:15] And it's been very, very fruitful relationship.

[00:10:17] But I see lots of that in this industry.

[00:10:20] And like you said, everybody has the same, you know, type problems.

[00:10:23] For example, I worked, you know, we're mostly small business

[00:10:27] consulting, you know, IT consulting like that.

[00:10:30] But somehow, I don't know, 15, 20 years ago, I formed a weird niche

[00:10:35] where CPAs who audit larger companies, organizations, cities,

[00:10:39] states, whatever, they have to sign off on the on the IT side of things.

[00:10:42] So they have to, in addition to all the financial statements

[00:10:44] that are saying are legit, they have to say that the company

[00:10:47] has proper IT practices in place that no one can scan them.

[00:10:51] So firms reached out to me and said, we'd like you to do that for us.

[00:10:53] We're going to go and do this giant financial audit for the city of whoever.

[00:10:57] And there's a bunch of famous cities down here that I do it for.

[00:10:59] We want you to go in, do the IT side and sign off on it.

[00:11:03] And what one of the funny things that struck me with that is

[00:11:06] is that I would go into them and you know, working with

[00:11:09] 20 different companies every season and I would go into them like, oh, you know what?

[00:11:13] They're, you know, we have water based sprinkler system in the server room.

[00:11:17] We got to do something. We got to do something. What do we do?

[00:11:19] And I'd be like, oh, you know, did you look into FM 200?

[00:11:22] Like I have no idea what FM 200 is, but nine clients in a row suddenly

[00:11:26] are having the same problem. I'm like, you guys don't talk to each other.

[00:11:29] You know, if you guys talk to each other, so everything's I'm like this incredible

[00:11:32] municipal guru for large companies, you know, and next year would be like,

[00:11:36] hey, we are mandated by the state to do this and what are we going to do?

[00:11:39] What are we going to do? Well, I just heard nine of those

[00:11:41] and I would share that advice.

[00:11:43] And so they all saw me as this expert and literally I don't know anything

[00:11:46] about running a city's IT department or government IT department is they all had

[00:11:50] the exact same problems, but somehow nobody was calling the neighbor, you know,

[00:11:55] five minutes down the street in collaborating. It was the strangest thing.

[00:12:00] Yeah. And obviously they're not competitive, right?

[00:12:02] So there's a little lower barrier, right?

[00:12:05] And it's funny because you can have a person in the IT world

[00:12:07] spend six months of vetting, 10 vendors, troubleshooting,

[00:12:11] and you call him in five minutes, they gave you six months worth

[00:12:15] of the solution that took them six months to get to.

[00:12:17] So why would you not do that?

[00:12:20] Absolutely.

[00:12:21] So did that lead you to to narrow down

[00:12:26] the niche within any way?

[00:12:29] Not so much. I'd say over time it did.

[00:12:30] You know, in the beginning I was too hungry.

[00:12:32] I wanted everything other than residential.

[00:12:34] Everybody learns that that one pretty quick.

[00:12:36] You don't want to do residential work.

[00:12:37] But yeah. So no, not until much later that I, you know,

[00:12:40] in the marketing really kind of drove that let's focus more on

[00:12:43] your professional firms and accounting firms and things of that nature.

[00:12:47] OK, gotcha.

[00:12:50] And I related to that.

[00:12:52] I know you mentioned marketing a few times, you know,

[00:12:55] not that folks aren't smart and didn't go to school, but I would say

[00:12:59] a lot of folks are a little less business minded, a lot of MSP owners,

[00:13:03] more technically minded.

[00:13:05] What I'm one thing I want to ask about is you've seemed to get

[00:13:08] on your local stations.

[00:13:11] You seem to get out there.

[00:13:13] Tell me, tell me how you do that.

[00:13:14] That it seems like most of us haven't.

[00:13:16] Yeah, I think I kind of honestly, I wish I could tell you the secret formula.

[00:13:19] I do remember something one day in some class somewhere that says,

[00:13:22] hey, there's two ways of getting media is one is you pay a fortune

[00:13:26] and you're not seen as an authority, which is an advertisement.

[00:13:28] You know, you're not every skeptical of advertisements and you pay a lot.

[00:13:32] The ideal way is if you can be on as an expert, it's free.

[00:13:36] And you have way more authority behind it,

[00:13:38] way more people are going to listen to what you have to say.

[00:13:41] And so I did a story or two.

[00:13:44] I think they ended up reaching out to me.

[00:13:45] There wasn't a lot of IT firms.

[00:13:47] Someone reached out to me and said, hey, we have this,

[00:13:49] you know, breach or breaking news and can you comment on it?

[00:13:52] And every has their strengths and weaknesses.

[00:13:55] Me being in front of a camera is not a big problem for me.

[00:13:59] I have other ones though, but plenty of other ones.

[00:14:02] But yeah, I understand like now I got super nervous when I started

[00:14:06] in this and now it's really natural.

[00:14:08] And you know, you clearly are at ease here, but you know,

[00:14:12] it's everybody's got their own strengths.

[00:14:13] And so by the way, that is it.

[00:14:14] I tell people who are afraid of everything that I'm busy

[00:14:17] and I've given my competitors, hey, there's a story.

[00:14:20] They'll put your logo on the website.

[00:14:21] They'll put a link to your website.

[00:14:23] They will.

[00:14:23] You can talk about some key things that people need to know

[00:14:25] that drives them to you.

[00:14:27] All these things for free.

[00:14:28] And a lot of people are like, nope, I want nothing to do with it.

[00:14:30] But as you do it, it becomes it's nothing easy, you know,

[00:14:34] and they want to make you look good.

[00:14:35] So the news would happen with me is I call her once or twice

[00:14:38] and reporters, believe it or not, are desperate for experts.

[00:14:43] So as soon as you do a decent job and help them out, whatever the case,

[00:14:46] you're going to go there and they're going to share it

[00:14:47] with all their other workers.

[00:14:48] And then after a couple of years, I stumbled on a weird situation.

[00:14:51] Or maybe not in that life, maybe within a year.

[00:14:55] There was a big breaking story and a couple of new stations called me

[00:14:58] because the world was kind of, you know, getting out of they saw things.

[00:15:00] And so I had like three news vans.

[00:15:02] It was after hours.

[00:15:03] So I said, I'll do it on the condition you come to my house.

[00:15:06] I'm not going back to the office, whatever.

[00:15:07] And I threw on some clothes.

[00:15:09] They came to my house and there was like three news trucks, you know,

[00:15:11] one interviewing me and two waiting.

[00:15:12] So the big station in town, which actually happens to do two different,

[00:15:15] you know, affiliates said to me, like, we don't want that.

[00:15:18] We don't want you on other stations.

[00:15:19] We don't want, you know, whatever.

[00:15:21] What do you what can we do to get you exclusive to us kind of thing?

[00:15:24] And all I cared about was at the time SEO is backlinks.

[00:15:28] You know, I want this.

[00:15:29] I want my bio on your page as your IT expert.

[00:15:31] I want a link in every article back to me.

[00:15:34] I'm like, done. That's all free.

[00:15:35] Yeah, for sure. You got it.

[00:15:37] You know, and they've been extremely accommodating.

[00:15:39] You know, if I talk about, you know, the target credit card breach

[00:15:43] and I want to give a checklist of what businesses should know about,

[00:15:46] you know, which is really self promotional.

[00:15:48] Like, yeah, put the link in the article.

[00:15:50] We got you, you know, your name, your title, use it wherever you want.

[00:15:53] So it's been very, very fine and good and interesting.

[00:15:57] The only downside to the TV stuff is is they're very, very accommodating.

[00:16:01] Incredibly so. Very nice people, very professional to work with

[00:16:04] is that when there's breaking news, they don't want to wait.

[00:16:07] So with the crowd strike thing that happened recently, I woke up.

[00:16:11] It was interesting.

[00:16:12] I woke up to like eight missed text messages,

[00:16:15] you know, missed emails, missed phone calls, missed, oh, I don't know what's going on.

[00:16:19] But it's something's not good going on.

[00:16:21] And literally they were like, you know, how quick can we get you on the air?

[00:16:24] And I knew nothing about the problem even, you know, that this had happened yet.

[00:16:27] That's the only downside is that it can be fast paced.

[00:16:29] I can't tell you how many times I've been on TV in shorts with a dress shirt on

[00:16:33] more than I've been on with dress pants, literally.

[00:16:39] Yeah. Now, nowadays we do things remotely

[00:16:42] in a Zoom or a Teams or whatever.

[00:16:44] But but you say you were on TV then, does that mean they dispatch

[00:16:47] your reporter to your house?

[00:16:48] You typically go in even then.

[00:16:50] I don't remember doing much Zoom then.

[00:16:52] They would frequently come to me, my house or the office.

[00:16:55] It was after hours.

[00:16:56] You know, it was a lot of times it wasn't unusual to have it out in front of my house.

[00:16:59] The joke in my neighborhood was that I was a serial killer because all the news

[00:17:02] vans were always in front of my house.

[00:17:04] But and then now I will say it's probably

[00:17:08] 90 percent teams in Zoom and occasionally they come to my office, maybe five

[00:17:14] percent of my office in five percent of just a big thing.

[00:17:16] I'll go to the studio.

[00:17:17] So like every now and then they'll have I remember like the target

[00:17:19] when I mentioned earlier, hey, we want you to come in.

[00:17:21] There's three half hour news segments, five, thirty to six, six to six,

[00:17:24] thirty, whatever.

[00:17:25] We'd like you to come in and we're going to have a Q&A.

[00:17:28] If anyone wants to call in and they made it like the whole news that day was like,

[00:17:32] you know, this little nurse, but then back to this target story,

[00:17:34] little news back to the target story.

[00:17:36] And so I was on, you know, live all evening.

[00:17:39] So that happens now and then.

[00:17:41] So tell me about where your business is now?

[00:17:43] Where do you need to be spending your time now?

[00:17:46] And what's the next kind of evolution?

[00:17:48] Very good question.

[00:17:49] So the last several years, I tried to shift my business,

[00:17:53] my role in the company to 90 percent sales and marketing,

[00:17:57] only because of two reasons.

[00:18:00] It's my weakness.

[00:18:01] You know, it's like you mentioned earlier, IT people, you know,

[00:18:03] they're very analytical, they might be very good with tech.

[00:18:06] We don't exactly have a strong reputation as public speakers and,

[00:18:10] you know, you know, sales type people or whatever,

[00:18:12] though they're out there, I've seen some extremely good ones out there.

[00:18:16] And so I wanted to not let that weakness hold me back.

[00:18:20] And then two, it's what drives the business.

[00:18:23] I hate to admit it.

[00:18:24] You know, you can be the best engineer on the planet,

[00:18:26] but if you're not getting the word out there and showing the value to people

[00:18:29] and, you know, whatever, it's not going to go anywhere.

[00:18:31] So I've been doing that.

[00:18:32] I think I maybe the pendulum is going a little too far.

[00:18:35] You know, I spent so much time on that that I really need to get back to more,

[00:18:37] you know, making a solid,

[00:18:39] you know, making sure the business is solid and prepared for growth.

[00:18:43] Amazingly, after all three decades,

[00:18:45] the pace of the changes in our world is faster than it's ever been.

[00:18:50] You would think back in the 80s when technology or 90s

[00:18:52] when technology is really kicking in, that would be the time.

[00:18:55] But I find now, you know, it's much more difficult

[00:18:58] and not just the technology, but running the business.

[00:19:01] The business world itself seems to be changing so much faster than it did

[00:19:05] even five years ago.

[00:19:07] Tell me more about that.

[00:19:08] What's the I think we can all grasp with the pace of technical change.

[00:19:11] You know, that seems like I mean, you could talk about it.

[00:19:14] But I think that one is easy for me to understand what what's the business.

[00:19:17] I'm not sure exactly what it is.

[00:19:19] And I won't even go back 10 years.

[00:19:20] I go back even since covid, you know,

[00:19:22] we suddenly had the huge shift of working at home.

[00:19:26] You know, hiring has always been very difficult,

[00:19:28] but now it is next to impossible.

[00:19:31] And the method for vetting and keeping people is completely different.

[00:19:35] What drives people is completely different, you know, in employees and things like that.

[00:19:40] I am constantly, for lack of a better word,

[00:19:43] rattled by some new things that come out.

[00:19:44] Hey, you're not doing this.

[00:19:46] You should be doing this.

[00:19:47] Well, you haven't been doing that for the last six, but no, let me dive into that.

[00:19:49] And soon as I get the dust cells,

[00:19:51] three months later, everybody else is saying, look, you're not doing this.

[00:19:53] You need to be doing that.

[00:19:54] And so it's constantly feeling like, you know,

[00:19:56] there's more that you should be doing.

[00:19:58] And if you're not, you're lagging the competition, which may not be true,

[00:20:01] but it's just so rapid and fast paced.

[00:20:04] And then, of course, in our world, we support all these other businesses.

[00:20:07] So they're going through that.

[00:20:08] I have the CEO's panic calls.

[00:20:10] What do I do about this?

[00:20:11] You know, how do I handle this?

[00:20:12] Or, you know, from a technological point of view,

[00:20:14] and we're being pressured to do this.

[00:20:16] And, you know, there's just lots of that kind of stuff.

[00:20:18] But in the MSP world, I feel it is just moving and changing faster

[00:20:23] than it did, you know, even five years ago.

[00:20:25] And it's certainly faster than, you know, 10, 20 years ago,

[00:20:28] which kind of I would have thought it'd slow down if anything, but it didn't.

[00:20:31] Right. You think it would.

[00:20:33] A lot of times people say the market will mature.

[00:20:35] Yeah.

[00:20:36] Which usually means, you know, the pace changes.

[00:20:39] So you mentioned a topic that's near and dear to my heart,

[00:20:42] which is hiring and keeping the right people.

[00:20:45] What else have you seen that you feel like this is the new thing?

[00:20:50] This is another thing because I can relate to several.

[00:20:52] I'm curious what you're saying.

[00:20:53] A bunch of them, you know, you've got obviously a very high interest in work remotely.

[00:20:58] So, you know, I get a large number of people applying from out of state

[00:21:00] and we do need boots on the ground here periodically.

[00:21:04] So even though the bulk of our job could be done remotely, for example,

[00:21:08] in my company, everybody works from home on Friday.

[00:21:10] Same job, same everything, whatever.

[00:21:12] But if a client's XYZ is broken, sometimes you can't fix it remotely.

[00:21:17] We need someone to run on site.

[00:21:18] So you still have to go out.

[00:21:20] So, you know, but everybody's like, look, I want to work completely from home.

[00:21:23] Is that possible?

[00:21:25] It can. But generally for us, it's better if we have someone more flexible.

[00:21:29] The job longevity is what kills me.

[00:21:32] You know, in the old days, you know, people would work, you know,

[00:21:35] for 10, 15 years, as long as you did your part as the boss, you know,

[00:21:38] make sure there's raises and bonuses and take care of them and give them

[00:21:41] opportunity, you know, they're going to be loyal to you forever.

[00:21:44] In fact, one of the key criteria I had 20 years ago on my little report card

[00:21:48] for hiring people is what's their job longevity, you know?

[00:21:51] Or another bullet point was strangely, have they had a bad boss?

[00:21:55] Like, hey, I was here. I got burned so badly.

[00:21:57] I don't ever want to go through that again, which tells me if I do a good

[00:22:01] job, they'll probably stay with me.

[00:22:03] And now it is very hard to find talent that isn't job hopping so much

[00:22:07] that it's not even worth it to me.

[00:22:09] In my company, I my belief is that if you leave within one year

[00:22:14] of being hired, I almost didn't make any money.

[00:22:17] You're almost it was worth it.

[00:22:19] I shouldn't have done it, you know?

[00:22:20] It's not the one year that you start really fitting in and, you know,

[00:22:24] in cranking out, you know, productively.

[00:22:27] Yeah, yeah, it takes time to ramp up.

[00:22:29] It takes time to understand your culture, your clients, your processes.

[00:22:33] That's exactly it.

[00:22:35] Yeah. So would you say a lot of the business is it business model

[00:22:37] change or compliance? Or is it mostly just the I suggest,

[00:22:41] but all the different dynamics around?

[00:22:43] Yeah, all the dynamics around people, you know, I yeah,

[00:22:46] that's the I would say the bulk of it.

[00:22:48] You know, it's just so difficult finding, you know, I always said

[00:22:51] even years ago in my world, the IT world, the unemployment is

[00:22:55] almost negative. You know, this is a long time ago.

[00:22:58] You know, you're not going to find in the higher the level

[00:23:00] of skill you want, even more so.

[00:23:02] And it's gotten I wouldn't bet money.

[00:23:05] It could have gotten worse. It's gotten worse.

[00:23:06] I mean, the only way I get what I call a level three is

[00:23:09] to steal one is to actively go after somebody and not

[00:23:12] even looking for someone who's dissatisfied.

[00:23:13] They're happy.

[00:23:14] They're in another job and somehow try to lure them over to us.

[00:23:19] You know, I mean, it's that competitive and that aggressive.

[00:23:24] You're not the only one here say that.

[00:23:26] Give this a sense for how many folks you have or how many

[00:23:30] you're out in a year.

[00:23:31] I'm just trying to get very efficient.

[00:23:33] I've been told it's funny, too, because I look at these big

[00:23:35] audits I do for these big organizations and a little

[00:23:37] metric I started keeping for myself is the number of

[00:23:40] computers they supported divided by the IT size.

[00:23:42] So I would get an idea with the average number.

[00:23:44] So I knew if the IT department was, you know, fatter or

[00:23:47] thinner or whatever the case is, we are very thin.

[00:23:50] We have let's see a seven people, full time people in

[00:23:54] a part time person and, you know, we replace one every

[00:23:58] blue moon. I'm very good about longevity.

[00:24:00] I'm, you know, if by the way, you want to solve your

[00:24:02] hiring problem, don't let, you know, make sure people

[00:24:04] don't leave, you know, pay them more or whatever.

[00:24:07] I have a weird philosophy here.

[00:24:08] I read it in some business journal a million years ago.

[00:24:10] The customer is not number one.

[00:24:12] The employee is the staff members and if the staff

[00:24:15] members love what they do when they're happy, they're

[00:24:17] going to take care of the clients and the customers

[00:24:19] and they're going to have that, you know, continuity

[00:24:20] and all that.

[00:24:22] And I thought that was really weird at the time, but

[00:24:23] I completely agree with that.

[00:24:25] You know, my staff comes before my clients and

[00:24:27] I love my clients.

[00:24:30] And so, you know, preventing that, you know,

[00:24:32] those from leaving is a key role in what we're doing.

[00:24:35] So we, you know, maybe, you know, every

[00:24:37] couple of years we'll have someone leave and we

[00:24:39] do grow reluctantly, but we're, but again, we're

[00:24:42] very efficient when I talk to other MSPs like how

[00:24:44] can you support this many firms and desktops and

[00:24:47] with that few users?

[00:24:50] And, you know, we just, I'm, that is my strength.

[00:24:53] I may not be a marketing guru or whatever the

[00:24:55] case is, but efficiency and analytical and, you

[00:24:58] know, simplifying things, that's, you know,

[00:24:59] I'm going to, I'm going to hit that.

[00:25:02] Nice.

[00:25:03] Nice.

[00:25:04] So tell me about the biggest challenge you've

[00:25:06] had.

[00:25:06] Tell me about the biggest disaster.

[00:25:09] So that's, that's funny you say that.

[00:25:10] Whenever we hire top level engineers, I'm looking

[00:25:14] for their PTSD moment, you know, when they got burnt.

[00:25:17] If they haven't had it, it almost makes me a

[00:25:19] little wary of them.

[00:25:20] You know, has someone been through that crisis,

[00:25:22] you know, where, you know, everything was just

[00:25:23] not working your plan B and plan C and plan D.

[00:25:26] So we had one of those.

[00:25:27] We have a large restaurant chain that we support

[00:25:30] and they were buying an even larger restaurant

[00:25:33] chain.

[00:25:33] It was kind of like the guppy swallowing the

[00:25:35] whale.

[00:25:35] It was very strange.

[00:25:37] And there was a day, it was all supposed to go

[00:25:39] public.

[00:25:40] They were on a server for those technical people

[00:25:43] out there watching this called small business

[00:25:45] server that was limited to 75 corporate users on

[00:25:48] it.

[00:25:48] That was the deal.

[00:25:49] You got it cheaper.

[00:25:50] You get all this bent up bells and whistles,

[00:25:51] but you can't go more than 75.

[00:25:53] So they had a program that very few people know

[00:25:55] about called the transition back.

[00:25:56] Hey, you buy this program and now you can go

[00:25:59] beyond 75 and go to the full product,

[00:26:01] whatever it's not limited or whatever.

[00:26:03] And so we went in there a couple of days

[00:26:04] before the big migration because they're

[00:26:05] going to bring in hundreds of use hundreds of

[00:26:07] corporate users into the network.

[00:26:09] And they were also going to be the front page of

[00:26:11] the newspaper and it's be widely promoted.

[00:26:14] So emails will be flowing.

[00:26:15] This one email was in house.

[00:26:16] That's how long ago it was.

[00:26:18] And we ran this little transition pack program

[00:26:20] and the server came would came back up and

[00:26:23] it's like I won't boot.

[00:26:23] There's a problem, whatever.

[00:26:25] We've seen it before.

[00:26:26] So in typical IT server troubleshooting,

[00:26:29] we spent, you know, a few hours or

[00:26:31] cells working on this going, this is

[00:26:32] really weird.

[00:26:33] We can't just seem simple, but it's not

[00:26:34] working.

[00:26:35] Then we got the phone with Microsoft eight,

[00:26:36] nine hours now it's, you know, 10 o'clock

[00:26:38] at night, 11 o'clock at night, still not

[00:26:39] working.

[00:26:40] And then after hours and hours with

[00:26:42] Microsoft, they go, this is a known bug.

[00:26:44] You're going to have to restore the

[00:26:46] server from scratch or whatever.

[00:26:47] And the back is for this particular

[00:26:48] server back then took it 10 hours.

[00:26:50] So, you know, we're already 12 hours

[00:26:52] into it stayed through there the next

[00:26:53] day, you know, it's going.

[00:26:56] The back of the problem was, but

[00:26:57] this is so long ago it was from tape drive.

[00:26:59] The tape we get halfway into it fail,

[00:27:01] but we had multiple tapes just one

[00:27:03] after the other.

[00:27:05] It was like someone had a voodoo doll

[00:27:06] just, you know, like, you know, stopping

[00:27:08] every, you know, and we didn't have

[00:27:10] another tape drive just on and on.

[00:27:12] It ended up taking about three days

[00:27:14] before we finally got everything,

[00:27:15] you know, whatever.

[00:27:16] And the client was amazing.

[00:27:17] I couldn't have asked for a more

[00:27:18] supportive client because we've all

[00:27:20] been there when they're looking over

[00:27:21] your shoulder how much longer,

[00:27:22] how much longer, how much longer.

[00:27:24] And they weren't doing that.

[00:27:25] Like we know you got it.

[00:27:26] And like, I don't know that I

[00:27:27] have it, you know, and they're

[00:27:27] like, no, we know you got it.

[00:27:29] And after three torturous days,

[00:27:31] you know, we were able to get them

[00:27:33] back up 100 percent functional or

[00:27:34] whatever. And but after, you know,

[00:27:37] that it, you know, we became

[00:27:40] psychotic about, you know,

[00:27:41] cybersecurity backups as you well

[00:27:43] know, you know, nothing fixes you

[00:27:45] than a major catastrophe.

[00:27:48] Better than that. Yeah.

[00:27:50] Yeah.

[00:27:51] What were the lessons that came out

[00:27:52] of that? That was a tough one.

[00:27:54] That was pre image based backup

[00:27:55] days.

[00:27:56] That was a big game changer for us.

[00:27:58] That one is hard to get lessons

[00:28:00] out of it.

[00:28:01] We had no more than 10 full copies

[00:28:03] of backups.

[00:28:06] And we had just a lot

[00:28:08] of redundancy and different things

[00:28:10] in place. And even that,

[00:28:12] you know, came into it, I think

[00:28:16] and I think tech is fixed a lot

[00:28:18] that I like to say. I like to take

[00:28:19] credit for it. But, you know, the

[00:28:20] image based backup came out virtual

[00:28:22] machines where you can take a

[00:28:23] snapshot if you're going to do a

[00:28:24] major process to a server.

[00:28:25] There was a lot of that kind of

[00:28:26] thing like that tapes are out the

[00:28:27] window tapes are, you know, they

[00:28:29] had their place, but you don't want

[00:28:30] to be doing disaster recovery from

[00:28:31] a tape, you know, and things like

[00:28:33] that. So a lot of that fixed it.

[00:28:35] And we became more diligent in

[00:28:37] testing our backups, you know, how

[00:28:38] we tested them, not just recover a

[00:28:40] file, but more of a full

[00:28:42] test, new things like that.

[00:28:44] So but my lesson is, is it's not

[00:28:46] just backups and anything, you

[00:28:48] know, what is the, you know,

[00:28:49] how can we have redundancy and

[00:28:51] double checks? And, you know,

[00:28:52] that's why I kind of like

[00:28:53] hiring the person who's got a

[00:28:55] catastrophe or two behind them,

[00:28:57] because you can see every time they

[00:28:59] hit the enter key, their triple

[00:29:00] thinking and quadruple is

[00:29:01] everything right before they hit

[00:29:02] every little move they do is

[00:29:04] designed like no, I'm going to have

[00:29:06] a fallback and you know, we

[00:29:08] interviewed a guy and we're

[00:29:09] talking about a server upgrades

[00:29:10] like, hey, each step I do a

[00:29:12] snapshot of the server. So at

[00:29:13] any point it blows up on me, I

[00:29:15] can roll back to five minutes

[00:29:16] ago. Like that's what I want

[00:29:17] to hear. I want to hear like

[00:29:19] paranoia.

[00:29:21] Yeah, we've all probably seen

[00:29:22] that new guy that one or

[00:29:25] whatever his one role they

[00:29:26] are. We've all had that

[00:29:28] one engineer or a new guy and

[00:29:30] they're just kind of cavalier

[00:29:32] and you know, they don't have the

[00:29:33] scar tissue. You just see them

[00:29:34] doing all kinds of upgrades or

[00:29:37] registry edits or something

[00:29:39] else live and you're just like

[00:29:41] that's that's not what you do.

[00:29:42] I'll just take it to be five

[00:29:43] minutes. I'll get like that.

[00:29:44] You're making me nervous.

[00:29:45] You know, what's your plan be?

[00:29:47] How are you? What if this goes

[00:29:47] wrong with and they don't have

[00:29:48] the answers that are just kind

[00:29:49] of like, no, it won't go wrong

[00:29:51] like I need the scar tissue

[00:29:53] right. You said yeah.

[00:29:56] That's how you learn, right?

[00:29:58] That's how you learn to be a little

[00:29:58] more paranoid.

[00:30:00] Right? Even I think, you know,

[00:30:03] all the customers are

[00:30:04] crowd-striked not to pick on them

[00:30:05] like they think they're all

[00:30:06] probably thinking about a

[00:30:08] little more redundancy or, you

[00:30:10] know, what do we learn from this?

[00:30:13] I'm curious what struck me

[00:30:15] earlier. You said that you

[00:30:17] put yourself when you were

[00:30:18] doing at one point maybe a

[00:30:19] little less now, but 90 percent

[00:30:21] spending some of your time on

[00:30:22] sales and marketing.

[00:30:25] Why is that is that what you

[00:30:27] need due to go to the next level?

[00:30:28] What drove that decision?

[00:30:29] I think it's been I've always

[00:30:31] grown with both feet on the

[00:30:32] brakes, you know, all these

[00:30:34] decades and whatever.

[00:30:35] There's some comfort in there.

[00:30:36] It's easier.

[00:30:39] And, you know, it's always

[00:30:40] been like a lot of people out

[00:30:41] there watching this, you know,

[00:30:42] you know, you get the

[00:30:43] referrals and the natural growth

[00:30:44] and the whatever. And then one

[00:30:45] day, you know, it starts

[00:30:46] plateauing like there's only

[00:30:47] so many referrals you can get.

[00:30:48] I'm out there less unless the

[00:30:50] face of the company than I

[00:30:51] was 10 years ago.

[00:30:52] And so what's the next thing?

[00:30:54] And I thought, you know what,

[00:30:55] this is going really well.

[00:30:56] We're doing a good job,

[00:30:56] good reviews.

[00:30:57] We should I should try to

[00:30:58] actually grow this new concept

[00:31:00] for business. Let me try to grow

[00:31:01] this. And so I dove into it

[00:31:03] and also because I'm not

[00:31:05] efficient with it.

[00:31:05] It's not my strength, you know,

[00:31:07] you know, I always say all the

[00:31:09] time I said this about hiring

[00:31:10] engineers. I'll give it a weird

[00:31:12] example. My mom is an artist.

[00:31:14] I'm not an artist.

[00:31:15] So if you sent me to the

[00:31:18] Sorbonne Universe in France

[00:31:20] under Leonardo da Vinci for

[00:31:22] 10 years to be an artist,

[00:31:23] I would for sure be a better

[00:31:25] artist. Okay. Nobody's going to

[00:31:27] confuse me for being a great

[00:31:28] artist even after that.

[00:31:29] You know, so I hate to say

[00:31:30] there's natural talent.

[00:31:32] I'm never going to compete in

[00:31:33] the NBA. You know, that's not

[00:31:34] going to happen.

[00:31:35] OK. So marketing is me too.

[00:31:37] But I do believe I can get

[00:31:38] better at it. So my 90 percent

[00:31:40] marketing is probably like a

[00:31:41] natural five percent marketing

[00:31:43] quality time.

[00:31:44] So I did that. Let me see how

[00:31:45] it works. Let me learn about

[00:31:46] it. Let me get better with

[00:31:48] it. Let me get more comfortable

[00:31:48] doing some of this stuff.

[00:31:50] And so and I did. I mean

[00:31:51] I've learned quite a bit.

[00:31:52] I'm by no means even average

[00:31:54] in that area compared to a lot of

[00:31:55] people. But but I've gotten

[00:31:56] better. So I just thought, you

[00:31:58] know, let me see what this is

[00:31:59] about. And now I feel much more

[00:32:00] confident in how to grow the

[00:32:01] business and how to get clients

[00:32:02] and things like that.

[00:32:03] And it's paid not as much as

[00:32:05] I'd like, but it's paid off.

[00:32:07] Love that.

[00:32:09] Yeah. I mean, what I'd love to

[00:32:11] dig into is most of us.

[00:32:13] I know there's awareness

[00:32:16] that I keep like you already

[00:32:17] have the self-awareness to

[00:32:18] realize you have both feet on

[00:32:19] the brakes.

[00:32:20] So that's huge.

[00:32:22] So for me, it starts with

[00:32:23] awareness like, huh, I've been

[00:32:24] driving with both feet on both

[00:32:26] feet on the brakes.

[00:32:27] And you know, we can I think

[00:32:29] it's easier to get analytical,

[00:32:31] at least for me.

[00:32:32] Like, huh, as I get to bigger

[00:32:34] number of customers, just the

[00:32:36] natural law of turn

[00:32:39] because they got bought out or

[00:32:40] just reasons beyond my control

[00:32:42] is going to kick in.

[00:32:43] And all of a sudden my natural

[00:32:45] referral rate is now

[00:32:47] equaling.

[00:32:48] Or as I get bigger, not

[00:32:50] quite equaling that

[00:32:52] rate. So there's this

[00:32:53] analytical side of me that goes,

[00:32:54] I get it. I see why.

[00:32:57] But there's this other side of

[00:32:58] them. It's like, I don't I don't

[00:32:59] want to do uncomfortable things.

[00:33:00] So what drove you to get out

[00:33:02] of your comfort zone?

[00:33:03] Because most of us, you know, we

[00:33:05] want to go be a better engineer.

[00:33:07] I would say it's already good.

[00:33:09] The one good thing that a lot

[00:33:09] analytical people have or IT

[00:33:11] people have is its competitiveness.

[00:33:13] And I think seeing other firms

[00:33:15] growing well and doing

[00:33:17] things like that, like, you

[00:33:18] know what? You know, part of

[00:33:19] me is like, oh, I could be

[00:33:20] doing that and I could be,

[00:33:21] you know, whatever.

[00:33:22] And but just like, I'm not,

[00:33:23] you know, I'm not growing as

[00:33:24] quick as they are. I'm not, you

[00:33:25] know, doing some of these things

[00:33:26] that I should be doing.

[00:33:28] And and of course we avoid it.

[00:33:29] You know, it's not our fun

[00:33:31] and specialty. You had a big

[00:33:32] nail in the head.

[00:33:33] I'm like, look, I'm bringing

[00:33:34] all these great firms, these

[00:33:35] killer firms. I'll give you

[00:33:36] an example. Just two or three

[00:33:37] years ago, our biggest firm

[00:33:39] that spends an enormous amount

[00:33:40] of money on us was all in on

[00:33:42] all the, you know, all kinds

[00:33:43] of stuff growing at an insane

[00:33:45] pace. I took them over when

[00:33:46] they had like it was a CPA

[00:33:47] firm. I took them over when

[00:33:48] they had like, I don't know,

[00:33:49] 15 accountants and they grew

[00:33:51] to like 130 huge

[00:33:53] organization.

[00:33:54] And out of the blue, after all

[00:33:55] these years of working with

[00:33:56] them, they sold the company.

[00:33:58] So here are largest company

[00:33:59] who has loved us, praised us,

[00:34:01] had us in there all the time.

[00:34:03] I was the one telling them,

[00:34:04] stop giving us money.

[00:34:05] Stop. You know, let me do

[00:34:06] some of these things. This

[00:34:07] is good. We can slow it down.

[00:34:08] You don't have to do all

[00:34:08] these major blah, blah, blah.

[00:34:10] I mean, it was a killer

[00:34:11] client to have. I love them

[00:34:12] to this day. Poof gone.

[00:34:14] You know, and so you

[00:34:15] learned like you got to,

[00:34:16] you have to be building

[00:34:17] and growing and you know,

[00:34:18] and doing those things and you

[00:34:20] can't just sit back, you know,

[00:34:21] and honestly, you probably

[00:34:22] could sit back, but you know,

[00:34:24] it's risky to do that.

[00:34:25] And you certainly aren't going

[00:34:26] to grow as well as you

[00:34:28] should. But mostly for my case

[00:34:30] the competition of it, you

[00:34:31] know, I don't want to, you

[00:34:33] know, to be lagging behind

[00:34:35] competitors. I see, you know,

[00:34:36] going out there doing all this.

[00:34:39] So how do you know if

[00:34:40] you're hitting your goal?

[00:34:42] Is there is there a certain

[00:34:43] level you're trying to attain?

[00:34:44] I look more to see for me.

[00:34:47] We tend to get people to come

[00:34:48] to us and stay with us forever.

[00:34:49] But I look more, you know, is

[00:34:51] getting those new clients,

[00:34:53] you know, those new good

[00:34:53] clients, you know, you know,

[00:34:55] good referrals and so on.

[00:34:56] We seem to do very well at

[00:34:58] closing most of them, you know,

[00:34:59] that we get coming our way,

[00:35:00] which I hate to even use that

[00:35:01] word because it's, you know,

[00:35:02] I'm not remotely, but just

[00:35:04] getting people to reach out to

[00:35:05] us, you know, or getting in

[00:35:06] touch with those people is

[00:35:07] is moved up. So I look for

[00:35:09] how often that happens.

[00:35:10] We have a new client that

[00:35:11] worked out.

[00:35:12] So that's a big deal for us.

[00:35:15] What advice do you have if

[00:35:17] I'm listening and I realize

[00:35:18] I'm in the same boat?

[00:35:20] That you're what?

[00:35:20] I'm scared.

[00:35:21] I don't want to get into it.

[00:35:23] Marketing is not my thing.

[00:35:25] Maybe I've tried.

[00:35:26] I'm thinking of me.

[00:35:27] I've tried this and I've tried

[00:35:28] that outsourced this and outsourced

[00:35:29] that and the results were kind

[00:35:30] of funny because media.

[00:35:32] If you remember our first

[00:35:33] conversation, one of the things

[00:35:34] that I thought was really amazing

[00:35:36] because again, I'm a newbie to

[00:35:37] this, but I study it very, very

[00:35:38] hard is I thought

[00:35:40] you guys had the most powerful

[00:35:42] homepage I've ever seen.

[00:35:44] I'm always looking for there's

[00:35:45] a great newsletter.

[00:35:46] They're Harry's marketing newsletter

[00:35:47] and he shows like.

[00:35:49] Yeah, I was like this and here's

[00:35:50] what we did to change the ad.

[00:35:51] You know, all these every month

[00:35:53] he sent up this newsletter and

[00:35:54] he's got these little and he's

[00:35:55] right. The punch of these

[00:35:56] little sayings and ads or

[00:35:58] homepages or or flyers or

[00:36:00] whatever it's like way better.

[00:36:01] You know, these little subtle

[00:36:02] changes and yours hit me like a

[00:36:04] ton of bricks.

[00:36:05] And I remember even as much as

[00:36:06] I was interested in the product,

[00:36:07] I'm like, this is some real

[00:36:08] this guy has been around IT

[00:36:10] people. This hits me in the

[00:36:11] heart.

[00:36:12] You know what you had in your

[00:36:13] homepage at the time.

[00:36:15] And so what I would encourage

[00:36:16] people to do is, you know, at a

[00:36:18] minimum set of time budget

[00:36:21] up, you know, most analytical

[00:36:23] people are very efficient.

[00:36:24] You know, they're not goofing

[00:36:25] around all the time.

[00:36:26] So if you booked every day, you

[00:36:27] know, from I don't know, 11

[00:36:29] till noon, you're going to work

[00:36:30] on marketing and no plan.

[00:36:32] Empty, empty checklist.

[00:36:33] Just dedicate the time.

[00:36:34] Go Google it.

[00:36:35] Go read something online.

[00:36:36] And then the other thing I'd

[00:36:37] really recommend is, is find a

[00:36:38] peer group.

[00:36:39] If you're direct competitors

[00:36:40] local, then see if you can

[00:36:42] find other people doing what

[00:36:43] you do out of state or out

[00:36:45] of the area.

[00:36:45] You know, who can you work

[00:36:46] with?

[00:36:47] You know, and what's working

[00:36:48] for you?

[00:36:48] What's not working for you?

[00:36:50] You know, join some of the

[00:36:50] organizations that might, you

[00:36:52] know, be more open to sharing

[00:36:53] the data.

[00:36:54] But if nothing else, if you

[00:36:55] set aside a block of time,

[00:36:56] maybe start with an hour, work

[00:36:57] up to two hours, work up to

[00:36:58] three hours and just research

[00:37:00] it, you know, what is, you

[00:37:01] know, what's an effective way

[00:37:02] to sell this service or

[00:37:03] promote this service or get

[00:37:04] out there.

[00:37:04] And the other scary thing is

[00:37:06] and I don't mean to be the

[00:37:07] downer here is I was always

[00:37:09] looking for the holy grail.

[00:37:11] I had read a long time ago

[00:37:12] that beer companies and soda

[00:37:13] companies found out that, hey,

[00:37:15] for every dollar we spend

[00:37:16] in advertising on a Superbowl

[00:37:18] ad or whatever, we get back

[00:37:19] $1.10.

[00:37:20] Let's say so if you get if you

[00:37:21] spend a dollar, why not spend

[00:37:23] 100 million to get back 110

[00:37:25] million?

[00:37:25] It's a simple formula.

[00:37:26] Find that formula.

[00:37:27] So that was my holy grail

[00:37:29] goal for a while.

[00:37:30] What is it?

[00:37:31] Is it SEO?

[00:37:32] Is it direct mail?

[00:37:33] Is it, you know, telephone?

[00:37:34] You know, whatever it is,

[00:37:35] blah, let me find that.

[00:37:36] And then whatever it is, I'm

[00:37:37] just going to keep turning

[00:37:38] it up until, you know, my

[00:37:40] budget's a hundred million

[00:37:41] dollars and I'm making

[00:37:42] a billion dollars, whatever.

[00:37:43] What I've discovered is, and

[00:37:44] this makes no logical sense.

[00:37:46] And I know I'm analytical,

[00:37:47] your viewers are probably

[00:37:48] analytical.

[00:37:49] Every single thing I found,

[00:37:50] you spend a dollar, you get

[00:37:52] less back than you put in it.

[00:37:54] But you can't not do it.

[00:37:56] You know, and that's probably

[00:37:56] not completely accurate.

[00:37:57] But if I would spend, you

[00:37:59] know, $1,000 on a direct

[00:38:00] mail campaign, it would be

[00:38:01] hard to get even one

[00:38:03] client to phone that 1,000

[00:38:05] or 10,000 or whatever the

[00:38:06] magic number is.

[00:38:07] But it's a momentum thing.

[00:38:09] The more, more things you

[00:38:10] have in the fire, the more

[00:38:10] of me do it does eventually

[00:38:12] pay an ROI on it.

[00:38:14] So over 30 years, what would

[00:38:17] you say is your biggest lesson

[00:38:18] learned?

[00:38:19] Oh, that's a good question.

[00:38:24] I would say

[00:38:27] is the peer thing.

[00:38:28] I honestly think that the

[00:38:29] biggest thing I can recommend

[00:38:30] is networking with your

[00:38:32] competition as insane as that

[00:38:34] sounds, you know.

[00:38:35] And if you can't directly do

[00:38:36] it or can't find them, go

[00:38:37] look outside your area or

[00:38:39] another country or get

[00:38:40] involved in association or

[00:38:42] something.

[00:38:43] What are people doing?

[00:38:43] What's working?

[00:38:44] What's not working?

[00:38:45] What's coming?

[00:38:46] You know, what's and I saw it

[00:38:47] like I mentioned, I was in

[00:38:48] you know, do these audits for

[00:38:49] all these cities that are

[00:38:51] not competitors and they're

[00:38:52] all minutes away from each

[00:38:53] other.

[00:38:54] And every year there was a

[00:38:55] new problem that they were

[00:38:57] losing their mind out of

[00:38:58] spending tons of money on.

[00:38:59] You know, I remember having

[00:39:00] one firm come to me and go,

[00:39:01] look, we'll pay you $100,000.

[00:39:02] If you can help us coaches

[00:39:04] through this, you know,

[00:39:05] this problem, I'm like,

[00:39:06] I mean, I, you know, I

[00:39:08] felt terrible, but I'm like,

[00:39:09] I'm not I can call the guy

[00:39:10] down the street in 10 minutes

[00:39:11] have this answer.

[00:39:12] You know, why are you?

[00:39:13] Let's interview these 10 vendors

[00:39:15] and put them through this vetting

[00:39:15] process.

[00:39:16] And there's 10 other companies

[00:39:18] within a little tiny radius

[00:39:19] doing the exact same thing.

[00:39:21] Why don't you guys get together

[00:39:22] and have a better solution?

[00:39:25] You know, even now I don't

[00:39:27] you know, you're in the backup

[00:39:28] world and

[00:39:31] I don't even care what the

[00:39:32] technically best one is.

[00:39:33] I want to know what all my

[00:39:34] peers are using, you know,

[00:39:36] because I'm not going to hire

[00:39:37] people that can support it.

[00:39:38] I know it's been vetted

[00:39:39] 800 different ways.

[00:39:40] I know it's been through the

[00:39:41] ups and downs, the supports there.

[00:39:43] If they all love the company or

[00:39:44] hate the company, I know.

[00:39:46] So, you know, maybe one product

[00:39:47] you know, we take over clients.

[00:39:49] They may have a product

[00:39:50] possibly that's better than what

[00:39:51] we're using by a little bit.

[00:39:53] I still insist they go to our

[00:39:54] product because we vetted it.

[00:39:57] We know it forward and backwards.

[00:39:58] You know, other people have

[00:39:59] vetted it, whatever.

[00:40:00] And outside the other

[00:40:01] product program probably isn't

[00:40:02] really better anyway.

[00:40:04] Yeah, it's usually

[00:40:06] there's a lot to say with the

[00:40:07] operation of what you're doing

[00:40:09] there.

[00:40:09] Yeah.

[00:40:10] Right.

[00:40:10] Right.

[00:40:11] So, you know, just because

[00:40:13] a particular tool is better, it

[00:40:14] might not be good in my hands.

[00:40:16] If I'm not used to it,

[00:40:17] I don't know if Del's the cheapest.

[00:40:18] I couldn't answer that question.

[00:40:19] I don't know if Del's better at

[00:40:20] servers.

[00:40:21] I can't answer that question.

[00:40:22] The reason I use Dell, this is

[00:40:23] personal preference.

[00:40:24] A lot of people out there hate

[00:40:25] Dell is because I don't have a

[00:40:27] problem.

[00:40:27] It doesn't matter what happens.

[00:40:29] It doesn't matter what goes on.

[00:40:30] They're on it.

[00:40:31] You know, I mean, we do a lot

[00:40:32] of business through Dell.

[00:40:33] But you know, every blue moon

[00:40:34] we have a weird issue.

[00:40:35] I don't have to, you know,

[00:40:36] worry about how it's going

[00:40:37] to be taken care of and the

[00:40:38] client will be happy and

[00:40:40] it's going to be taken care of.

[00:40:41] And so that's why I use them.

[00:40:43] So you're big on relationship with

[00:40:45] your clients.

[00:40:46] Let me ask you this because I get

[00:40:47] MSPs asking me this.

[00:40:48] Yeah, but they can just go online

[00:40:50] and get a price that's the same.

[00:40:52] And then they're asking me why

[00:40:53] am I charging them a penny more?

[00:40:56] But I've spent, you know, four

[00:40:57] hours speccing the system because

[00:40:58] they don't know they needed

[00:40:59] hot spot power supplies or,

[00:41:02] you know, four hour on site

[00:41:04] or whatever it is.

[00:41:05] So how do you?

[00:41:06] How do you know that?

[00:41:06] So I saw it come in the early

[00:41:07] days when the MSP world

[00:41:09] started kicking off, you know,

[00:41:10] the flat monthly rate, whatever.

[00:41:12] Everybody, not everybody,

[00:41:14] smart people were worried, hey,

[00:41:15] this could be commoditized.

[00:41:16] We don't want to be IT

[00:41:18] for a price because then

[00:41:19] everybody's going to be what's

[00:41:20] the lowest price and you really

[00:41:22] got to focus on what your, you

[00:41:23] know, what your bundle has,

[00:41:24] what you're having and stuff

[00:41:25] like that. The other weird thing

[00:41:26] that works for me and I can't

[00:41:27] say it works for other people is

[00:41:29] is I've been lucky enough

[00:41:30] that I'm usually too busy

[00:41:32] and I have a hard time finding

[00:41:33] quality people to work for us

[00:41:35] so that I'm almost always in

[00:41:36] the verge of having too many

[00:41:38] clients.

[00:41:39] And because of that, I've

[00:41:40] discovered it's the weirdest thing.

[00:41:43] When I am like the point where I

[00:41:45] almost don't care if you come on

[00:41:46] or not. Let me help you.

[00:41:47] Let me tell you, you know, and by

[00:41:48] the way, I'm the anti sales

[00:41:49] person, the anti MBA.

[00:41:51] I will tell you reasons why

[00:41:52] we're not as good as what you're

[00:41:53] doing and why we're better.

[00:41:54] You know, there's some

[00:41:55] downsides. We're talking to a

[00:41:56] client right now.

[00:41:57] They have an in-house IT person

[00:41:59] who's twiddling their fingers

[00:42:00] thirty five hours a week

[00:42:01] and they do a couple things,

[00:42:02] you know, whatever.

[00:42:03] And like, look, we're looking at

[00:42:04] blah, blah, blah.

[00:42:05] Look, you've got no

[00:42:06] cybersecurity. You got this.

[00:42:07] I'm, you know, there's the sales

[00:42:08] pitch. You're way behind

[00:42:10] all this different stuff.

[00:42:11] You've got some real concerns

[00:42:12] or blah, blah, blah, whatever.

[00:42:13] Here's the downside.

[00:42:14] Yes, we're fast.

[00:42:16] If you call in, we will get you

[00:42:17] help right away.

[00:42:18] Sometimes it might require us,

[00:42:20] you know, cables unplugged.

[00:42:21] We have to go out there and see

[00:42:21] why you can't get to work.

[00:42:22] This guy is 10 feet away.

[00:42:24] So he is going to be faster

[00:42:26] and he is going to be right

[00:42:27] there, you know, but he's

[00:42:28] missing all this.

[00:42:30] And then what I've also found

[00:42:31] is the more I say no to

[00:42:32] clients, it's the strangest

[00:42:34] formula. I'm going to write a

[00:42:35] business book about this.

[00:42:36] The more I'm like, well, I really

[00:42:37] appreciate your time.

[00:42:38] Thank you. You know, it's not a

[00:42:39] good fit. It's not a good fit.

[00:42:40] You know, here's how we see

[00:42:41] things. And I know you found

[00:42:42] something cheaper, but I don't

[00:42:43] want to support that because

[00:42:44] of, you know, I have these

[00:42:45] concerns and we have, we

[00:42:46] standardized so that it's rock

[00:42:47] solid and da da da da.

[00:42:49] And the more I say no, the more

[00:42:51] they suddenly went from we're

[00:42:52] looking at three other vendors

[00:42:53] to no, it's only we're only

[00:42:54] looking at you to like, no,

[00:42:55] we want to sign the paper

[00:42:56] today. How quick can you get

[00:42:57] it to us?

[00:42:58] And I've had the opposite.

[00:42:59] The few times we've been slow

[00:43:00] and I start like lowering my

[00:43:02] standards are going to be a

[00:43:03] aggressive and they can sense

[00:43:05] I'm chasing them. Oh, yeah, yeah,

[00:43:06] we can send them out there today

[00:43:07] to help you. And the more you

[00:43:08] can just feel them back off.

[00:43:10] And so it's strange if I see

[00:43:12] someone shopping around based on

[00:43:13] price or the wrong solution.

[00:43:15] I'll tell them why, you know, do

[00:43:16] your thing in six months.

[00:43:17] If it doesn't work out, you

[00:43:18] know, don't forget me.

[00:43:20] You know, here's why I think

[00:43:21] you're going to here's what I

[00:43:22] think you're going to expect.

[00:43:23] And the more I say no, it

[00:43:24] seems like they see that I'm

[00:43:27] I don't know, maybe I'm

[00:43:28] being honest or that I know

[00:43:29] what I'm taught. I don't know

[00:43:29] what it is, but it seems to

[00:43:30] work well.

[00:43:32] Yeah, there's something about

[00:43:34] that different energy.

[00:43:35] Yeah. And maybe the ability to

[00:43:37] say no.

[00:43:38] And I know that

[00:43:40] when you're hungry, like when

[00:43:42] you're first getting started,

[00:43:43] I don't know about you, but I

[00:43:45] was like, I'll install your

[00:43:46] server and mop the floor.

[00:43:49] I'll throw it in, you know,

[00:43:50] what a big deal like,

[00:43:52] especially when you're

[00:43:53] coming from like, am I going

[00:43:54] to pay more good?

[00:43:55] Yes.

[00:43:56] I have a one hour job in

[00:43:58] Miami, which is is about,

[00:43:59] I don't know, 65 70 minutes

[00:44:01] away.

[00:44:02] And also I know it was one hour,

[00:44:03] wasn't like a big surprise.

[00:44:04] Hey, can you come here and do

[00:44:05] this one trivial thing?

[00:44:06] And I drove almost two and a

[00:44:08] half hours round trip for one

[00:44:09] billable hour.

[00:44:09] And to this day, I'm like, I

[00:44:11] wouldn't go five minutes for

[00:44:12] one billable hour now.

[00:44:13] You know, so that's funny.

[00:44:15] Yeah. Yeah. Different levels

[00:44:17] of desperation.

[00:44:18] Speaking of that, what do you

[00:44:19] think is a common

[00:44:23] myth about running in MSP

[00:44:25] that you think would be good

[00:44:26] to debunk?

[00:44:27] I would say the Maus trap one

[00:44:28] if just because you're a better

[00:44:29] engineer, a smarter engineer,

[00:44:31] better with technology.

[00:44:32] That ain't squat.

[00:44:33] You know, it's good to have, but

[00:44:35] I see lots of IT people who

[00:44:37] aren't experts who

[00:44:39] thrive and I've seen lots of

[00:44:40] incredibly talented people who

[00:44:41] just tank.

[00:44:43] You know, you can't.

[00:44:44] It's a business.

[00:44:44] You know, you're not just an

[00:44:45] IT person if you're going to

[00:44:46] go into that kind of thing.

[00:44:49] Yeah.

[00:44:50] Yeah, there's a difference between

[00:44:51] I you can be an IT person

[00:44:53] or you can have an IT hobby.

[00:44:55] But running a business is

[00:44:56] different.

[00:44:57] You've got to develop different

[00:44:58] skills.

[00:45:00] Speaking of that, you mentioned

[00:45:01] there's a lot of change and the

[00:45:03] pace gets faster.

[00:45:05] What are you looking forward to?

[00:45:06] There's a lot of change on the

[00:45:07] horizon. Is there anything that

[00:45:08] you're trying?

[00:45:09] Not easy for me.

[00:45:10] I'm a very hands-on person.

[00:45:11] I'd like to be able to

[00:45:13] know I have a I'm blessed.

[00:45:14] I have an amazing team.

[00:45:16] Great clients, incredible

[00:45:17] engineers, incredible admin

[00:45:19] staff. And they're just they're

[00:45:20] just I'm not even just

[00:45:22] saying that I'm so blessed in

[00:45:23] that area.

[00:45:24] I'd like to be able to

[00:45:26] step back a little bit, you

[00:45:29] and, you know, I've

[00:45:31] seen it was an old story in my

[00:45:32] world that kind of rung true with

[00:45:33] me. It was about a person who

[00:45:35] like worked like three hours a

[00:45:36] day. Not that I want to do that,

[00:45:37] but three hours a day.

[00:45:38] And they were getting more done

[00:45:39] than the person who was in their

[00:45:40] 60 hours a day, you know,

[00:45:41] grinding away.

[00:45:41] Not because of that.

[00:45:42] But it's like if you can just,

[00:45:43] you know, come in with what's

[00:45:44] your mission, what's your goal

[00:45:46] for that day? You know, hit

[00:45:47] it hard.

[00:45:48] And then, you know, there's a

[00:45:49] lot to be said. I see what

[00:45:50] some of my competitor friends,

[00:45:52] you know, they go out and they

[00:45:53] play and they goof around.

[00:45:54] They do what I'm like, what are

[00:45:55] you doing?

[00:45:55] You know, but then when they come

[00:45:57] in, they're focused.

[00:45:58] They're not burned out.

[00:45:59] You know, they're down to business.

[00:46:01] It's very productive time.

[00:46:02] And then when they check those

[00:46:03] boxes off, they leave, you know,

[00:46:05] or they go on to something else

[00:46:07] where as I'm the kind of person,

[00:46:08] you know, like, if you're not

[00:46:09] at your desk by eight 30, you

[00:46:10] know, you're a slacker kind of

[00:46:11] thing, you know, and that's a

[00:46:12] hard mindset as an owner to

[00:46:14] get out of. So I'd like to be

[00:46:15] able to be more

[00:46:19] productive and yet get away

[00:46:20] a little more, you know, or

[00:46:21] think about the bigger picture

[00:46:23] and not being the weeds all the

[00:46:24] time.

[00:46:26] I love that because when I was

[00:46:28] starting, I thought, well, you

[00:46:30] know, if people are going to come

[00:46:31] in at eight or a 30, I've got to

[00:46:32] be the example. I've got to be

[00:46:34] there at seven, seven thirty.

[00:46:36] You just hit my hot button.

[00:46:38] That's that is a whopper for

[00:46:39] me. It drives me bonkers when

[00:46:40] one of my guys is doing a major

[00:46:42] server migration at night.

[00:46:44] If I'm not, you know, if I'm

[00:46:46] out having dinner with friends

[00:46:47] and I know he's grinding away,

[00:46:48] it makes me insane.

[00:46:50] I feel guilty.

[00:46:52] Yeah. So there's something

[00:46:53] interesting about that.

[00:46:54] Well, I can I can along

[00:46:56] with that and I can see that

[00:46:58] from my side. But why do you

[00:46:58] think that is? I don't know.

[00:47:00] I talked to somebody about it one

[00:47:01] time, like, you know, it's

[00:47:02] insane. I did get some really good

[00:47:04] advice from somebody. Someone said

[00:47:05] 10 years ago, you know, did you

[00:47:07] have the support and was

[00:47:09] anybody, you know, like covering

[00:47:10] him? Like, no, it's just me,

[00:47:11] you know, whatever, or the first

[00:47:13] days of infallible.

[00:47:14] And I like, no.

[00:47:15] And like, how many jobs have you

[00:47:16] created? I'm like, well, I've

[00:47:17] created this many jobs, you know,

[00:47:18] and hey, are you doing this?

[00:47:19] And like, you

[00:47:21] you've done all this. You're the

[00:47:22] boss. You should be able to

[00:47:23] go, you know, do those things.

[00:47:25] And honestly, and this sounds like

[00:47:26] I'm full of it.

[00:47:27] I've noticed that the days if I do

[00:47:29] come in a little bit later and hit

[00:47:31] one thing really hard, hey, I want

[00:47:32] to make this flyer. I'm going to

[00:47:33] make this blah, blah, let me

[00:47:33] focus on that. Get a couple

[00:47:34] people on the team together,

[00:47:35] blah, blah. And I get, wow, this

[00:47:36] is really good. And I leave.

[00:47:38] I feel like it was a super

[00:47:40] productive, focused, you know,

[00:47:41] I'm not trying to get 100

[00:47:43] things done. You're there for

[00:47:44] one thing. I actually feel more

[00:47:45] productive sometimes those days.

[00:47:48] But yeah, the I don't know,

[00:47:49] it's them, you know, the old

[00:47:50] school boomer mentality or

[00:47:51] whatever I have. But it's really

[00:47:53] hard for me to leave, you know,

[00:47:54] like, oh, you know, why don't you

[00:47:55] just leave for the day? I people

[00:47:56] I got all these people grinding

[00:47:58] away. I can't just go leave.

[00:48:00] But it was interesting that this

[00:48:01] person said, look, you've you've

[00:48:02] done all this, you've created

[00:48:03] all this and you didn't take a

[00:48:04] vacation for the first 10 years

[00:48:05] of infostream. I never, never

[00:48:07] walked away. If you want to

[00:48:08] take a vacation, take a

[00:48:09] vacation, you know, I'm

[00:48:11] trying to both the company

[00:48:14] and for myself learn to do a

[00:48:16] little more balancing.

[00:48:18] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember I

[00:48:20] had to work seven to six or six

[00:48:22] thirty. Yeah. I say I had to, but

[00:48:25] I chose to because I had to be

[00:48:26] there earlier, maybe there later

[00:48:28] to kind of set a good example

[00:48:30] and the irony that I only

[00:48:31] realize later is I didn't

[00:48:32] really want them to overwork.

[00:48:33] Yeah. I encouraged them to take

[00:48:35] off some time, go to the

[00:48:36] dentist, go to the doctor, you

[00:48:38] know, if you got the work

[00:48:40] done, there's had to be some

[00:48:42] people here. But if we didn't

[00:48:43] have a super busy day, then

[00:48:45] you know, take off early.

[00:48:46] That's so fun. And it was

[00:48:47] the last to take that advice.

[00:48:49] You know, I came, I started off

[00:48:51] in Fortress of I- which was very

[00:48:52] much like that. Your lunch, you

[00:48:53] need to be back here within 59.

[00:48:55] I mean, it's ridiculous. And

[00:48:56] now it's funny because of that,

[00:48:58] I'm the complete opposite. All

[00:48:59] time my guys were like, you

[00:49:00] know what? I'll just do it

[00:49:00] after hours or doesn't disrupt

[00:49:01] them. Like no, no, no, no, no,

[00:49:03] that can be done. You know,

[00:49:04] no, no work on the night,

[00:49:05] the weekend. You know, I tell

[00:49:07] them the professionals, you

[00:49:08] know, somebody like, hey, my

[00:49:09] lunch might run a few minutes

[00:49:10] over. I got to go pick up my

[00:49:11] boat and move it, you know,

[00:49:13] whatever, you know, some weird

[00:49:13] thing like that. No, go take

[00:49:15] two hours because anytime I

[00:49:17] need you at night, you're there

[00:49:18] anytime. You know, you're a

[00:49:19] professional. Yeah. You're not,

[00:49:20] you know, a cashier at the

[00:49:21] grocery store, you know, and

[00:49:22] yet I can't do that. You know,

[00:49:24] I completely relate to you.

[00:49:27] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've

[00:49:29] been working on that myself

[00:49:30] a lot in the last year.

[00:49:33] And especially kind of letting

[00:49:35] go. And one of the phrases

[00:49:37] that resonated with me is

[00:49:38] what got you here won't get

[00:49:39] you there.

[00:49:41] That's interesting.

[00:49:42] And it's just helped me

[00:49:43] realize like in the beginning

[00:49:44] being super hands on is what

[00:49:46] I needed to be, you know, when

[00:49:48] you're one or two or three people,

[00:49:49] four people, maybe employees.

[00:49:51] But, you know, in a stage,

[00:49:53] you know, past that when you get

[00:49:55] to eight or 10 or 12 or so,

[00:49:57] you know, I think it's a thing

[00:49:59] whole, you know, so my belief

[00:50:00] and I'm invested in some

[00:50:02] coaching and peer groups is

[00:50:04] I'm the thing holding the

[00:50:05] business back. Oh, the main

[00:50:06] thing.

[00:50:07] Funny if I'm the thing in the

[00:50:09] startup world, that's a big

[00:50:10] thing. I remember back when

[00:50:11] I was studying startups, they

[00:50:13] said, you know, the startup

[00:50:14] person is usually really

[00:50:15] quick at getting a good idea

[00:50:16] going and the biggest obstacle.

[00:50:18] So when that when the venture

[00:50:19] capitalist kind of step in, it's

[00:50:20] not unusual for them to kick

[00:50:22] the owner out take over.

[00:50:24] I thought that was insane, but

[00:50:25] I completely see why.

[00:50:27] You can see. Yeah.

[00:50:29] Yeah. So and it's the rare one

[00:50:30] that will change and change

[00:50:32] enough. And so, you know, right

[00:50:34] and wrong, my view is I'm the

[00:50:35] thing holding the business back

[00:50:37] and getting out of that way.

[00:50:39] And what's funny that

[00:50:41] opened my eyes to this a little

[00:50:42] bit is certainly a few books,

[00:50:43] but also doing some business

[00:50:46] travel again. I was like, well,

[00:50:47] for this conference or whatever,

[00:50:48] I'm going to travel for this, you

[00:50:49] know, and then my

[00:50:51] team just got more done.

[00:50:53] You know, the more and I wasn't

[00:50:55] a micro manager.

[00:50:56] I wasn't looking over the shoulder.

[00:50:58] But what I the first like epiphany

[00:51:00] was back now we're remote

[00:51:02] back when we were all in an

[00:51:03] office.

[00:51:04] I would be working on something or

[00:51:06] get off a great call with

[00:51:07] somebody.

[00:51:08] You know, Alan was like, oh, I

[00:51:09] really want this or this would

[00:51:10] be cool. And I go over there

[00:51:12] and talk to development or I

[00:51:13] talked to support.

[00:51:14] And I would just kind of and,

[00:51:15] you know, I would always say, hey,

[00:51:16] can I? Is this a good time?

[00:51:18] I'd be polite.

[00:51:19] But perhaps they should have said

[00:51:20] no. But they would say yes.

[00:51:22] And then we would, you know, we

[00:51:23] would talk about it and it felt

[00:51:25] productive because we would just

[00:51:26] workshop.

[00:51:27] What if we did this? What if we

[00:51:28] started doing this? How could we

[00:51:29] build this in so it felt

[00:51:30] good? But what I realized is

[00:51:32] it was a giant distraction

[00:51:35] 100 percent.

[00:51:36] And so I had to give a speech to

[00:51:38] my staff.

[00:51:39] It's my fault.

[00:51:40] And I actually had to go to them

[00:51:41] in our last staff meeting and said,

[00:51:43] look, when an Alan event comes

[00:51:44] up, that doesn't mean stop

[00:51:46] everything else.

[00:51:47] You know, just I may have something

[00:51:48] I'm in brain up like that.

[00:51:49] But trust me, take care of the

[00:51:50] clients handling our backup

[00:51:52] management handling dot our

[00:51:53] portals. That's more important.

[00:51:55] Unless I specifically tell you

[00:51:56] this is an emergency, please,

[00:51:57] because I kept catching people

[00:51:59] and they're trying to please

[00:52:00] me and they're trying to do the

[00:52:01] right thing. And then I

[00:52:02] realized like I'm the problem to

[00:52:04] stop, you know,

[00:52:05] you know, disrupting their

[00:52:06] workflow.

[00:52:08] I love that. And especially use

[00:52:10] catching them because

[00:52:11] it took me too long to

[00:52:13] realize that just

[00:52:14] because I as a human

[00:52:15] happened to be the boss, they're

[00:52:17] interpreting that as

[00:52:18] as urgency. Yes.

[00:52:19] And so I had to give the same

[00:52:20] kind of speech and say, hey, no,

[00:52:22] no, no, like it should go in the

[00:52:23] queue with everybody else.

[00:52:24] I didn't catch it. One of my

[00:52:25] other senior guys here who I

[00:52:26] love, you know, who has no

[00:52:28] problem telling me what's right

[00:52:29] and which I like. I use very

[00:52:30] straight. You need that kind

[00:52:31] of guy.

[00:52:32] Sometimes he drives me insane.

[00:52:33] But you know what? He calls

[00:52:34] me out. He's like, look, you

[00:52:35] got to be careful when you

[00:52:36] give and you do this.

[00:52:38] They stop everything.

[00:52:39] They stop and they get that

[00:52:40] fully. And next thing you have

[00:52:41] clients have been ignored for

[00:52:42] four hours and like, whoa,

[00:52:45] and it's like, you may say it.

[00:52:46] You may tell them that you got to

[00:52:47] know, you can't, you know, like,

[00:52:49] oh, that's good advice.

[00:52:52] I love that.

[00:52:53] Yeah, I've got I've got one person

[00:52:54] on my team that's super direct

[00:52:55] and some people that rebels

[00:52:57] that are there, their feathers

[00:52:59] a little bit, but I love it

[00:53:01] because I never have to wonder

[00:53:02] how he's feeling.

[00:53:04] And sometimes it's

[00:53:05] it's a little uncomfortable, you

[00:53:07] know, when he's like, you're

[00:53:08] doing this, like you're really

[00:53:09] an after people and I'm like, oh,

[00:53:10] I am.

[00:53:12] Yeah, most recently I was able to

[00:53:13] so I've tried to flip this on its

[00:53:15] head. I've been able to catch

[00:53:16] people and what I mean is that

[00:53:18] the two most recent ones is I've

[00:53:19] caught, quote unquote, caught

[00:53:21] somebody sending back,

[00:53:23] you know, emails or messages

[00:53:25] on whatever you use, teens or

[00:53:27] slack, you know, in the

[00:53:29] evening when there was no

[00:53:30] emergency.

[00:53:31] And so whenever I see that, I

[00:53:32] was like, hey, unless you just

[00:53:34] feel like you got to work,

[00:53:35] like working.

[00:53:36] Yeah.

[00:53:37] And then another one that's

[00:53:39] funny, but in the

[00:53:42] you know, remote work,

[00:53:44] work from home sometime hybrid

[00:53:48] somebody bought, you know, it

[00:53:49] wasn't a computer. It was like an

[00:53:51] extra device to be more productive

[00:53:53] and

[00:53:55] and then they had been getting

[00:53:57] more done. That's how I realized

[00:53:58] and I was just talking to them,

[00:53:59] like, you're just really getting

[00:54:00] things done. This is happening

[00:54:01] and they're like, yeah, I

[00:54:03] went and bought this with their

[00:54:04] own money.

[00:54:06] Yeah. And you know, it's a

[00:54:07] classic like the employee,

[00:54:09] the team member, this person

[00:54:11] just, you know, God love them.

[00:54:13] They're hard. It's absolutely

[00:54:14] the right place. But as I told

[00:54:15] them, I said, I caught you and

[00:54:16] you're going to pay for that.

[00:54:18] Like that's that's

[00:54:19] touching, you know, they have

[00:54:20] your back like that. They do

[00:54:21] things. They didn't even hurt

[00:54:22] you to ask me to like, you

[00:54:23] know, like, no, I got you.

[00:54:25] What are you doing? I'm going

[00:54:26] to get this for everybody.

[00:54:27] You know, yeah.

[00:54:28] But I'm like, yeah, exactly.

[00:54:29] That, you know,

[00:54:31] so yeah.

[00:54:32] That's when you know you have

[00:54:33] an amazing team, right?

[00:54:35] You said it, you know, it's

[00:54:36] a blessing.

[00:54:37] And I believe to have an

[00:54:38] amazing team and that's when you

[00:54:39] know things like that.

[00:54:41] And the thing that I have to

[00:54:42] remind myself is I need to lean

[00:54:43] in to remind them

[00:54:45] because it's not that I've said

[00:54:46] no to things like can you have

[00:54:48] this device?

[00:54:49] It was just they didn't ask.

[00:54:50] They just took action

[00:54:52] and, you know, and kind of

[00:54:53] solve for the customer, which

[00:54:54] is what we want.

[00:54:55] But, you know, I find that

[00:54:57] we could we get guys all

[00:54:58] the time like, I need to do

[00:54:59] this one thing. So I have a

[00:55:00] server at home.

[00:55:01] I'm going to bring in.

[00:55:02] I'm like,

[00:55:03] like I really appreciate that.

[00:55:04] That touches me to no end.

[00:55:06] But stop.

[00:55:06] Don't do that. We can get them.

[00:55:07] We'll pay for something.

[00:55:09] No, I'll pay for it.

[00:55:10] We'll figure it out.

[00:55:11] Thank you.

[00:55:12] Like, no, no, they can spar for a

[00:55:13] couple of weeks like, yeah,

[00:55:15] it's like it's their company.

[00:55:16] You know, I mean, that touches me,

[00:55:17] you know?

[00:55:19] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:55:19] If you're going to go set up

[00:55:20] your own hyper-V VMware or

[00:55:22] whatever, you know, lab and

[00:55:24] learn all this stuff, that's

[00:55:25] going to benefit the company.

[00:55:27] Why don't we why don't we

[00:55:28] give you that equipment to go

[00:55:29] do it? I found it's hard to

[00:55:31] stop them from doing it on

[00:55:32] the weekend because there may

[00:55:32] be their passion or whatever.

[00:55:34] But at least, you know, at

[00:55:35] least you're not paying for

[00:55:36] the hardware to.

[00:55:37] Yeah, exactly.

[00:55:38] Oh my gosh.

[00:55:38] Told you that.

[00:55:41] One one final question for now.

[00:55:43] What what's the book

[00:55:44] you would recommend?

[00:55:45] Is there any book you've read

[00:55:46] or anything else you've come

[00:55:47] across that you're like, this

[00:55:48] is a thing that has made a big

[00:55:50] difference?

[00:55:51] I can't think of any great.

[00:55:53] I mean, I read a lot of business

[00:55:55] books and things that read me.

[00:55:56] But these days things change

[00:55:58] so fast. I like

[00:56:00] the online stuff more, you know,

[00:56:02] I find surprisingly, YouTube's

[00:56:04] getting a lot of good stuff.

[00:56:05] And so yeah, I don't want to go,

[00:56:06] you know, in my evenings when

[00:56:08] I'm relaxing, you know, it's

[00:56:09] nice to watch on the TV because

[00:56:10] it's big.

[00:56:11] But, you know, they have a lot

[00:56:12] of five and 10 minute little

[00:56:13] clips about problems in various

[00:56:14] different authors.

[00:56:16] And YouTube's got the algorithm

[00:56:17] once you start watching a couple

[00:56:18] of these, it starts finding

[00:56:19] what you like, what you don't

[00:56:20] like and what's helpful and

[00:56:21] whatever.

[00:56:21] And I find a lot of that,

[00:56:22] you know, for example, I

[00:56:23] went through an SEO phase

[00:56:25] and 90 percent, everybody's

[00:56:26] doing the same thing, whatever.

[00:56:27] And I had this one guy who's

[00:56:28] just off the beaten path with

[00:56:29] AI. Here's what you do with

[00:56:30] AI with SEO and do this and

[00:56:32] do that.

[00:56:32] It was so unique and so

[00:56:33] strange.

[00:56:34] And I noticed when I started

[00:56:35] playing with it, you know, all

[00:56:36] of a sudden my ranking shot up,

[00:56:38] you know, a bunch of things

[00:56:38] happened.

[00:56:39] And I just started following.

[00:56:41] It was five, 10 minutes.

[00:56:42] It was nice because quick, you

[00:56:43] know, when I get home, it's

[00:56:44] hard for me to read.

[00:56:45] I read a ton of stuff but not

[00:56:46] business books.

[00:56:47] I am an incredibly avid reader,

[00:56:49] but I find it hard after

[00:56:51] grinding all day.

[00:56:52] Probably because I do too much

[00:56:53] to go read business books.

[00:56:55] So I do.

[00:56:55] The other thing I saw is I've

[00:56:56] never done this, but it's

[00:56:58] on my radar is there

[00:57:00] was an advertisement.

[00:57:01] Maybe some of your viewers

[00:57:02] or you've seen it is

[00:57:04] it was like, hey, stop doom

[00:57:05] scrolling.

[00:57:06] Here's we do these summaries

[00:57:08] of famous business books,

[00:57:09] you know, like

[00:57:11] the cash flow quadrant or

[00:57:12] E, you know, all those,

[00:57:14] whatever.

[00:57:15] So and they're like, hey, we

[00:57:16] summarize the key points we

[00:57:18] would ever.

[00:57:18] And so every day instead of

[00:57:19] playing for an hour, take 10

[00:57:21] minutes and go read a little

[00:57:22] article.

[00:57:23] It was a simple super cheap.

[00:57:24] You know, I'm sure you're

[00:57:25] not going to get as much out

[00:57:26] of it as if you had atomic

[00:57:27] habits is going to take me

[00:57:29] a week to read, but I can

[00:57:30] get a summary of it in 10

[00:57:31] minutes.

[00:57:31] It's not as good, but I got

[00:57:33] 10 minutes.

[00:57:34] I got a lot of gold out of

[00:57:35] that potentially.

[00:57:36] So I'm very intrigued by

[00:57:37] something like that.

[00:57:38] Well, I could do this all day,

[00:57:40] but I know that I can't have

[00:57:42] all that of your time.

[00:57:43] So tell folks how they

[00:57:45] could get ahold of you.

[00:57:47] And you mentioned peers

[00:57:47] maybe listening, getting

[00:57:48] connected, anybody else?

[00:57:50] How would they find?

[00:57:51] So I love this.

[00:57:51] By the way, I say this to

[00:57:52] clients that come to us.

[00:57:53] Hey, if you don't go with

[00:57:54] us and you go with another

[00:57:54] firm, but you want to run

[00:57:56] some strategy by me or

[00:57:57] brainstorm with me.

[00:57:58] I love that.

[00:57:58] I like to be in the picture

[00:57:59] long term.

[00:58:00] It's not always about the

[00:58:00] money.

[00:58:01] So my website is

[00:58:03] infostream.cc.

[00:58:04] Infostream.tucys.

[00:58:06] You're welcome to email me

[00:58:07] Alan at infostream.cc.

[00:58:09] And of course, the phone

[00:58:10] numbers on the website.

[00:58:11] But if there's anybody out

[00:58:12] there that wants to brainstorm

[00:58:13] or collaborate or ask

[00:58:14] questions, I'm always happy

[00:58:16] to help.

[00:58:17] Yeah, wonderful.

[00:58:18] Thank you for that, Alan.

[00:58:20] And thank you for being on

[00:58:21] MSP Monday.

[00:58:22] I really appreciate the

[00:58:22] invitation.

[00:58:23] Thank you.