3x Your MRR with Customer Success | Guest: Marnie Stockman

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Remember 83% of people will stick with you because of the experience even if they're paying more.

[00:00:05] [SPEAKER_02]: That's pretty telling that they want both the relationship and the experience and the outcome.

[00:00:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So either one of them missing is a threat.

[00:00:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And the interesting piece is if you are delivering the outcomes and don't have the customer experience,

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_02]: you are more likely to have that unexpected term.

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_02]: They're more likely to just blindside you.

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey guys, Damien Stevens, host of MSP Mindset.

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Join me today as I got the privilege of speaking with Marnie Stockman who's best known as author of

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_00]: so many books and the CEO of Lifecycle Insights.

[00:00:48] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're like me, you may have thought of customer success as something you'll get to later or a nice to have or maybe even

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_00]: associated with those pain in the butt, QBRs.

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I learned I can double or triple the revenue of your MSP in a year.

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_00]: If I followed this pragmai guy, she literally wrote the book called Literally The Book on Customer Success for MSPs.

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_00]: You're not going to want to miss out on our conversation today.

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_00]: So I know we're going to talk a lot about customers who could have said today but you have a pretty

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_00]: bit of an unconventional path, especially for MSPs.

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Everybody that's not familiar to me how a teacher got into the MSP space.

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_02]: As I always say, if anybody seen me live when I go to present, I started out as a high school

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_02]: math teacher so you may be wondering why you should listen to me.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Then I will say that is because I so pre-capt to 16 year old, so I know something about sales and customer success.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And you watch them process that of like right teachers are selling something to a captive but completely

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_02]: disinterested audience.

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Completely completely.

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Completely 16 year olds and pre-cout, that's a hard sell.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you can do that well, then you probably have some skills folks didn't think about.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And it also so it explains to them why they should listen to me and then it also explains to them why they get the

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_02]: HeBGVs when I walk behind them because they're like, oh she's going to check my homework or look over my children and see what I'm doing.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's funny because once I say that, they'll say like yeah you really do project that.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_02]: You kind of have this little fear thing going on.

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I rarely have to assign detention in a presentation but I will do it if you get out of hand.

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So she's so so.

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_00]: It's good this is.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_02]: So that was teaching and sort of why you could connect the dots on like how do you get from here to there?

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_02]: So I became the math supervisor and accountability coordinator.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_02]: So typically when I say accountability coordinator, MSP sort of sit up like well I like that word right that sounds like data and things.

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_02]: So so what does that mean?

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So I was in charge of all of the testing and all of the data for the school system.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you have a child and they've taken a state test of any kind, if they have taken anything that's been

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Bobble sheeted or computer assigned and scored, I was in charge of that.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And then the data and the analysis of that data.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I work and do better, et cetera.

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_02]: So in the course of doing that, I was using an attack platform that was phenomenal at the ability to let us build our own assessments report on the data.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Get actionable data because so many times and I say this to MSPs all of the time.

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_02]: If you are collecting data and you are not doing anything with it, what are you doing?

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_02]: You're a way thing.

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_02]: The collection time that the surfaces are just having the data anywhere, like bandwidth, CPU whatever right I was in an MSP and I don't play one on TV.

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'll get all the lingo wrong, right?

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Ram, rom and all the other things. You're just wasting it if you're not doing anything with the data, right?

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So I was using this platform, loved the capability, really flexible reporting that made it very easy for me to say school X is very successful here.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_02]: So I was one of those customers that every vendor and MSP will recognize that was really pretty adamant about what I needed and what I wanted from the platform.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_02]: So they, after one of their conferences, they literally like they walked me to the car.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I thought like, oh, I've flirted with this company too long now they're going to ask me out.

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And they did, so they asked me if I would come work for them and run customer success.

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So that is when I made the lead, you know, an education when you leave the classroom and go to the board office that's moving to the dark side.

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And then when you go from the board office of the vendor that's moving to the dark side again.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm double dark side on the vendor world and so I worked in an ed tech company.

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And that ed tech company was like 60 employees when I got there.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that was 57 and was there for, I guess, three ish four ish years and then a string of acquisitions happen.

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And so we got acquired three times within 18 months.

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Now one acquisition causes ruffles feathers, even, you know, regardless, but three in 18 months can be catastrophic,

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_02]: especially depending on the company that does the acquiring.

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_02]: So we had a good bad and ugly version of acquisitions, but because our customer success every time I got acquired,

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_02]: they would cut half my team and then they would double the clients overnight.

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Actually, they'd cut a third of the team, 30% and then they would double clients overnight.

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So it made it really hard to support customer success, but I got very good at creating processes quickly in order to automate and work in bulk as best as possible with half the resources.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's where MSPs often look of like how do I get the human side more efficient when I spend all my day automating on the technical side.

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_02]: They don't understand how to do that with the human element.

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_02]: So after the third acquisition, my business partner Nick and I, we weren't business partners at the time, but he said like,

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Next time we get acquired, we should own the company so that we don't ever let this type of acquisition happen again.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_02]: So we knew how we wanted to run a company. He ran support and I ran success, so we very much knew we wanted raving fans, transparency, get stuff done like listen to our clients and do what they need.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And with my education background, we knew we wanted to do it by educating you know and entertaining if you can.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And so we were out looking for a problem to solve and I had played volleyball with someone who was an IT guy like literally that's what the title, that's the only title I knew.

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And that was Alex Farling he, he knew that I was an education, so he thought I was still a teacher like that's how much we didn't talk while we were playing volleyball.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_02]: But this one night we were playing and we're both on opposite sides of the net and setting back and forth and I said, do you have any problems in the IT space right that can be solved with data reporting analytics etc.

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And he said yeah, it's been six hours a day like got salty quick, cobbling together which I now know is like almost an industry standard, cobbling together my quarterly business review.

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like it should be automated, it should definitely be more strategic. I'm not even sure what we're delivering is important and running customer success.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I have seen the good bad and ugly of QBR so that was the only acronym he said for the next hour that I recognized.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean he told me he was an MSP which I thought meant Maryland State Police so I learned what men service providers were.

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I learned what a PSA was, what an RMM was right and all these other things and he kind of shark tank pitched nick of me on the idea of could we build a QBR platform.

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And so that was the beginning of life cycle insights. So that is how you get from there to there without again having ever been an MSP.

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[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Interesting. I want to actually take a step back and for all the MSPs, they're just keeping it up.

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the light is being reactive responsive. Why test your service? Because it seems really obvious that I probably need some more

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_00]: and new logos, and then new accounts, maybe that's one path to growth.

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_00]: But help me understand why CS and the role there and I've got other questions.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_02]: First, it's a lot more expensive to get a new logo than it is to keep the one that you have.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_02]: So, happy healthy clients is a sign of a happy healthy business. If you ever want to sell your business,

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_02]: you in fact are going to have to guarantee someone that the current customers that you have are going to stay your customers.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So, it is really about retention and the other piece is, you know, it's shocking to me because the MSPs absolutely do tell me exactly what you just said.

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Right? Like, I think I need sales as opposed to customer success because I need logos.

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And out of the same mouth that just told me that, they will say they get all their existing business from referrals.

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, do you know how you get referrals with good customer success? So then they make...

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I don't think we know how we get referrals. Because they don't make the right leap in thinking it must be good customer success and that's how we make referrals.

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you put a customer success process in place, you are basically creating the referral program that your company needs to view the build scale.

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to interrupt there for a second because I feel like there's so many MSPs. So if you're listening and this is you, let me know.

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_00]: But when I was in MSP, there was this myth. I don't know where we're doing to call it that we're different.

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And we just, you know, we're the only ones that don't do gigs.

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I would like to argue that one. Go ahead.

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_00]: It's that kind of thing. And therefore and I think it can't... it was most of the time it's coming from a good place.

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_00]: We work really hard. We're really good. We're really honest. I pay my people fairly. You know, they're all good people. I've heard well.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Like so I think it's coming from a good place.

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think there's this perception that because I've done those things are for it all is magically come.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm not even sure a lot of us are aware that there needs to be something else than that.

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, customer success is a young industry, a young department compared to sales.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Sales have existed ever since somebody had a rock and someone else had a fish and they wanted the other thing.

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So you've selling is everything you do. You're always trying to get something you don't have.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And it might be, you know, not an actual tangible product but selling exists a long time.

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Customer success hasn't been around so long, right? I could just cram me over the head with a rock and take the fish.

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, like I'm not really worried about customer success in the caveman days. We're just going to fight it out.

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_02]: But what folks have realized is that especially in the world of social media where anything you do wrong is going to be amplified at levels that

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_02]: only Reddit can produce and take down, it can produce it as well. Right?

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_02]: That customer success can amplify your message and that it's interesting the statistics on customer success.

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like 83% of clients will stay with someone at a higher cost because of customer success as opposed to just the product itself.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And you always hear people do business with people, not with companies.

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And you know what the people is what makes the customer success.

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_02]: My son and I talk about this all the time because he's charming soul.

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And he gets more things, not just because he's good at delivering customer success but because he understands it.

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_02]: He in fact knows how to make you better at customer success to get him what he wants.

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And people don't think they just think like you said, do the job and then the magic happens.

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_02]: But in fact if you have a process in place to really establish that you are in fact helping your customer be successful,

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_02]: that will make you more successful.

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you ever want to exit your business like I said before, you have to demonstrate that that is predictable.

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So people often talk about predictable sales but one of the most important things is predictable churn or lack thereof.

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_02]: So one of my favorite KPIs, okay, ours goals like whatever you want, whatever three letters you want to call it for customer success is zero unreported churn.

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I should never lose a customer where I didn't suspect I was going to lose a customer.

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So you should have processes in place, relationships in place to understand where that churn could come.

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And again, if you ever want to sell your company, you have to know that.

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I'm not buying a company when you say, I've got 900 clients. I've got 10,000 clients.

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_02]: How do I know they're going to be clients next month?

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_02]: If especially, especially if you are not there because if you tell me, well I've got 10,000 clients.

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I've got 900 clients and they all love me. What sounds like when I sell it, when I buy your company, I'm going to have a hard time keeping those 900 clients.

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, it can be more true.

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So if I'm buying this so far, which is basically just delivering well is not enough.

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And then help me pick it up from how to see us become something that isn't something I have to do just want a larger company.

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_00]: How does that tie into referrals? How does that tie into growth?

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so there's always upsell opportunity within customer success right there not salespeople. They're not coin operated like sales folks are.

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_02]: They really want the success of their client. So I love the quote, it's last name is sing and I can't remember his first name at this point.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_02]: But he says that the purpose of a business is to create customers who create more customers.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_02]: So why will a customer, why would a customer choose to give you a referral?

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_02]: They would choose to give you a referral if they're so happy with what you've done and you've made them so successful that they think other people could benefit.

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And they they identify the value that they're getting being directly associated to the services that your company has to offer, which is why it is really important from as pie's to understand what value they have instead of just whatever that is plugged into my wall right?

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I'm sure I can go buy whatever that is. That is ensuring I have internet in the room I'm standing in.

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure I can go buy that at office deep out.

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I'm going to have to take it with me so I can ask them what it is right?

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_02]: That's not the value that MSPs are delivering and that is where I always talk about QBRs with customer success with QBRs as the foundation.

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_02]: That is why QBRs need to be the foundation of your sales process and your customer success process because it is that conversation.

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_02]: That is going to establish what your business goals are and where I'm going to explain to you how I'm going to help you get those business goals without telling you the name of the flux capacitor plugged into my wall right?

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_02]: What you are, what I am going to tell you is that morning you can walk upstairs downstairs out on the dock, out in your front yard and you can stay connected all of the time.

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Because you work remotely from home and I'm 100% confident you don't want to stand in that two foot by two foot section all day long to be able to work on.

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_02]: All right, yeah, I appreciate that. I in fact do have that. I can be in my garage. I can be in the gazebo right like that matters to me telling me that they was going to buy three flux capacitors could care less.

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like yeah. So so that is where.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Customers success builds the relationship that I understand that first the MSP understands my needs and their focus is on helping accomplish my goals not on selling flux of pastors.

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_02]: But now so Kenny who happened to be the best man at my wedding. So I'm not on the market for an MSP because my guy.

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I trade in Doritos and chocolate chip cookies right, but he very much knows what I need and want.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And so he just you will call and say like hey, you need this and explains why because he knows what it is I need. So I told him that I was doing a lot more podcasts and.

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So he said we're going to hardwire you because like I have 600 uploads feed right blazing fast as the internet tells me.

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And he said, your wife is fine like you all can stream in here but if you're going on streaming platforms, you need this okay good argument. I don't care what it is.

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's the conversation that MSPs need to have in QBRs not tell me how many Opticlex 750s were talking about here.

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_00]: So how do I make that transition if that's me if I'm used to you know a lot of us like I was a NMSP and I was a tech guy that started you know that was an MSP right I think that's probably the more typical.

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And so if I am the technical background and even if I know enough to not just come in and totally be geeks peak.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I still think there's a gap at least it was for me in trying to ask the right questions to really get at business issues.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And then what that led to a mine is saying the same things jumping to conclusions you know saying that everybody have one insurance company you probably won't think the exact same thing.

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah and things like that so how do I try to bridge the gap of like okay maybe I shouldn't be geeks peak but how do I go past that to really understand about you.

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_02]: So I do think it's about questions but for folks that so what I often find in this conversation is that folks feel a little anxiety when I start talking about it because they realize.

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_02]: They have already got clients and have an established this relationship so I'd like to talk about it in two ways I'd like to talk about like what you should do differently immediately.

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And then they say for any prospect that you're talking to and then let's go back and recover the folks that you're already working with that did not know that you actually are dying to suit.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And we're going to come talk in deliver bagels they thought you only ever showed up in jeans and t-shirts and crawled under tables with cables right.

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So so the for you're now you're you've started you were good at tech and like to help people so let's not I don't want anyone to think I don't think MSPs want to help people just because they don't focus on customer success that's how you got this gig because you're really good at tech.

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And you really liked helping people in fixing problems so you've got this in you you just didn't think because so many will you know wholeheartedly say that they're introverted you just didn't think you had that said in you for the record when I take the test I'm 70% introverted and nobody listening to this is thinking no she's not like you're like nobody's thinking yeah I was suspecting she's an introvert.

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So so you've got some clients we're going to let them go for a minute what do you do with prospects that you want to show them that you get customer success and and you don't need to say those words to them they don't even need to know that right but how do you show so.

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So so when you are talking to prospects you want to ask some questions about their business goals and objectives.

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And then you the magician that is the technology guru will be able to connect their goals with solutions you can offer them so you are not going to ask them.

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Right out of the gate how many end points they have you can get there you can ask them not in the first meeting but not first please let's not start there that sounds like you're trying to find a way to sell the same number of end points.

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_02]: In a seat like you'll have to get there but that's not where you start so first I do hope you Google stock their website and took a look to see if you could figure out any of their their company goals or mission.

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Because you should be able to know something and take a guess at what might be important to them based on what their website says.

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And then you should ask them about it like oh you're a nonprofit so do you struggle like what a nonprofit struggle with staying within budget and doing with minimal resources right.

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_02]: We've been a now you mentioned the insurance agent thing like if one has it do they all do the exact same thing don't assume they need the same technology solution but you can ask questions around common problems so.

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_02]: We work with other nonprofits that really need our help in some productivity tools to help them do more with this.

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Is that a problem that you have in your nonprofit right I've been said a single tool yet you know a lot of our nonprofits you know wish they had they could attract more.

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Fund raising through better websites etc but haven't had the time capacity and team to be able to build those things right now I suspect as a former MSP you know exactly what projects you're going to pitch based on how I answered that question.

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And I know the theme of those projects even though I don't know exactly what you're going to sell me right.

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_02]: One MSP that I worked with she is she is a superior VCEO you would not want to compete with her MSP because she is so talented she.

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I she showed me one of her quarterly business reviews she was working with the client who had said that their goals for the year were to their growth goals were to grow through acquisition.

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And so she said your business goal is growth through acquisition.

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Our technology aligned goal for you then is to create a standard of technology so that we can help integrate your team as fast as possible with you acquire.

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And in my mind again not as an MSP I immediately say oh my gosh she just got them to sign off on ripping replace with all of her tools as soon as they acquire someone else you know who doesn't win the acquiring companies MSP you're out of luck.

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_02]: If you won't that MSP you're not getting that contract she is right.

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So talking about is your company growing contracting are you adding you know head count, are you adding are you hiring why do you want to know with their hire when they're hiring.

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Just two weeks ago I started on MSP who said yeah on Friday they told me they've got a new somebody coming in on Monday and they want me to configure device for them because they don't have a backup.

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Right and then then the company wanted to know why they were charging emergency rates because you didn't communicate right.

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_02]: So I mean there are all the same stories you hear all the time but you hear them because they're true.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_02]: So to ask what's what's new in your industry what's.

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And obviously like using your example they didn't just hire somebody in a day.

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_00]: They had to think about a job description they posted it or at least hired a recruiter there was a process made just the final three right there there was.

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_02]: There was a long this path.

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_02]: There are multiple steps and they were not a day long so yeah can we talk about the process for hiring and like you want to spend less on me stop doing that.

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's let's have a conversation about where I should be inserted into your process right and help them document the process.

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And along the way so.

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_02]: You know those are the types of questions that get them thinking I think the other two things are if you could dream up a technology what would it do for you.

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the easy one is what are you doing what is someone in your company doing by hand every day that you wish you could automate.

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And then of course what keeps you up at night.

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Now I think a lot of folks lead with that because of cyber security but it can't be the only thing you lead with because you know and I talk about in the book that.

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_02]: The people can only live in crisis mode for so long so when a new breach happens they'll be anxious about it for a minute but they don't make any money on being more cyber secure.

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_02]: They so it's a protection play but they're not making money that way so it still feels like a sacrifice.

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_02]: You know there's a trade off for them.

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for bringing that up because I feel like we miss that as an industry and it would you know if it's like I feel like if your insurance carrier calls you.

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_00]: If you have a good relationship you want to know that you have the right coverage the appropriate amount maybe your business is grown maybe you're under.

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's a valid conversation but frankly I just don't get too excited about buying more insurance.

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not at all.

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a it's a cost you know of doing business and it doesn't make me more money I need the appropriate protection and I feel like that's a little bit where those sort of things fall but you know we're so excited to talk about the flex capacity.

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And it might make us money to get more dollars but you know I love that you're talking about automation I love that you're talking about productivity I love that you're talking about.

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_00]: You know a technology wish existed or could happen because those things actually have an ROI.

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yeah I think the other piece that MSPs have access to is data that could help clients be more efficient and productive right there's a reason to have an asset refresh policy.

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_02]: But I swear the way a solid I don't want to be dismissive but I'll say 50% come at that conversation is one every three years you're going to buy new computers.

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh I honestly don't tell me that I will that just makes me insane you can convince me that.

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_02]: There are reasons on why updated software and hardware keeps me more productive less frustrated that I came here but you just telling me that my computer that work today is suddenly magically not going to work tomorrow.

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't buy that story at all right and so having the language around those conversations I think is important to because it's the same conversation.

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I did just sell a whole three year asset refresh policy without saying well every three years you're going to buy new computers.

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh that sentence should not come in to play ever.

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Well if you're listening I'm not great at this but you on average if you're listening your own average you're not even one of the reasons I know is I will ask some of these questions to you.

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_00]: As your or vendor right to all my MSP and I don't like vendor partner but I genuinely want to know like what do you wish exist what are your biggest challenges and sometimes it's like productivity customers success you know.

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_00]: efficiency hiring you know often has nothing to do with backup and as has to recover but I still want to know what they call and MSP can fix more of those things.

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Then maybe what my business but I still need to understand yeah well then you get there where I are interface right when you understand their priorities you see where you fit in them and can help them budget for it like that's another data point that MSP can absolutely help I've we had so many partners that became overwhelmingly successful like triple the MRR within a year.

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_02]: When they got a quarterly business review and placed that included delivering a budget for that very reason that you just said.

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_00]: So now you're speaking the language tell me about double or tripleing M or that's your about that.

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_00]: What's the average MSP growth I'm not sure I know it's like one client a month it's like nothing it's it's I don't know single like.

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's not a lot of growth so getting the double or triple would take you a long time is it's a little bit.

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's interesting one of our MSPs talked about how actually I well I've got several stories in mind I've got to that I'm thinking of specifically that intentionally use their customer success project process.

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_02]: To decide which clients were not ideal clients and.

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Worked their way out of that contract they intentionally it inspired them right like my happy to talk about how that was a pleasant situation and not horrendous so one had 105 clients when he started with us intentionally pruned 35 of those clients and then acquired.

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Two more clients so so net is they're down 33 clients and they triple them are so how do you do that right I.

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_00]: five to 80 something right if I'm doing that in my head 87 years ago and tripling in my are that sounds way better yeah right per per employee and just and per.

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_00]: You know customer revenue and.

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Just for station well and and his ability to scale now that he's got a process in place it he now can take off and run right so you know we mentioned what happened what do you do with the clients you already have so we're kind of looping back to to that how do we how do we get.

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_02]: customer success and key the hours to be a part of that process so.

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_02]: The first thing he did was really set down with himself basically and said what kind of business do I want to be do I want to be.

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_02]: A strategic partner the elusive trusted advisor all of those things and the answer is yes I want to be a business basically business consultant that uses I always say how do I help deliver business outcomes with the thought for use of technology that was the story that he wanted to sell.

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So in the customer success book we talk about segmenting your clients and we talk about you know putting MRR how much they pay you versus effort and it could be effort it could be complexity it can be pain in the behind.

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_02]: You know scoring basically that's what you're looking for and you've got four quadrants there right so you've got.

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_02]: High paying high effort clients department of defense they pay you a lot but guess what that's because you have to do a lot of things for them there's compliance issues all over the place cybersecurity frameworks all the things right.

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_02]: You've got high paying low effort clients there your favorites let's go get more of them right you've got low paying low effort clients there okay they're fairly automated you can probably do a lot of them and they may grow into your other quadrant.

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And then you've got the high paying I mean the low paying rather high effort pain in the behind clients and so what our partner did was he took a look at who is in that quadrant.

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you've not talked to Dave Kavanche on most about the punk and plan for MSPs you should because they talk about like you have to get rid of those pumpkins you can renegotiate so they pay higher you can convince them that their server from 1902 is causing all of these problems.

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And sell them the proper equipment so they become ease of use you know they become low paying and low effort or you fire him.

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_02]: So that is where the 35 clients came from he decided that he wanted to he was putting everyone on a no longer break fix everybody gets on a managed plan you are now paying a rate and every three years like your reviewer computer refresh is built in.

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm never going to be surprised every three years that I've got you know, $7,500 devices had to buy it's all inclusive and if you can get on board with this program we want you as a client.

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_02]: But if you don't believe in my special sauce I'll find you somebody else so that's how we got rid of the 35 and then everyone else was on board with i'm going to be your strategic advisor.

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_02]: You were going to give me all of your contracts because I'm going to help you create a full technology cost of ownership budget.

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's game changing because right now I would say the majority of MSPs clients think of them and technology apart from their business instead of a part of their business.

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_02]: But when you are in charge of delivering the full budget including their line of business application their cybersecurity insurance policy their eyes people provider their voice provider all those things even if you are not the one delivering it to them.

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Then they realize technology is actually running their darn business and you're a critical piece of it.

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_02]: So the partner that I'm thinking of has been invited to sit at the table like he goes through our monthly leadership meetings and they love having him from an outside perspective because the first time he asked him for their contracts.

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_02]: He found they had 17 locations and in COVID when they went remote they bought 17 different voice providers.

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And so he was able to eliminate all of them.

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_02]: He sold them the voice service that he gets a kickback on right and streamlined everything so they're like yeah we want we want someone from a third party perspective to actually look at our business when they're not living in it every day which is brilliant.

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I love that.

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_00]: You get in that trusted advisor and I think there's some fear.

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I would say sometimes just apprehension but sometimes fear you know I'm used to going in and that's what if you're listening or challenge you because when I was in this field as a long time ago and so it wasn't good then but if you're still saying you're going to buy the same arm tool and by the same cybersecurity stack.

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And then be different or better and not ask any questions differentiate yourself then you know you're you're leading yourself so what how to overcome the fear of.

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_00]: This sounds like a lot of work I don't know if I can ask those questions aren't we just the you know I think there's too many stuck in like the infrastructure view.

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah yeah like don't we just provide the IT and answer help this and it's very different to be strategic advisor it's certainly very different to.

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_00]: You know review their contracts to sit down at you know with an equal kind of seat at the board.

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah I mean and there are certainly steps to get there right.

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Although it is easier.

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it really comes down to asking the questions and so many folks have in posture syndrome I certainly do right.

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean I tell them as peace with to do all day every day and I never was one right but what I do do well is ask questions right and I don't necessarily think I have the answer but I bet you do and I can help pull it out of you and that really is what customer success.

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Is about right when I went and worked so worked with.

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I've been working with the two hundred largest school districts in the country we worked with more than half of them so for sure I didn't see all the problems that had ever happened but I was able to see quite a few and one thing that I think.

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Where MSPs have a huge advantage is that in working with many businesses you see a lot of the same problems now you can't go in presumptuous and say I know exactly what your problems are without asking questions.

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_02]: But when you ask the questions I mean one of my favorite selling lines is to say well I work with a lot of other partners like you and the problem that they have is this do you have that same problem.

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_02]: We were able to help them with that problem this is what I won't claim that I ever use this line this was Alex's line and it's a good one we were able to solve that problem for about $3,000 a month.

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Is that is that in your budget or is that problem not a big enough problem for you when you can wrap that into getting down to the budget piece of it to sort of gauge if this is going to be a good partner for you I think that's a good way to do it.

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I love that.

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_00]: So tell me we've talked a lot about the new prospects tell me about.

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Do I approach this the existing folks the same way?

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah no.

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Because with the new folks you can just tell them this is part of your process and then we'll be coming to quarterly business reviews because you're going to discuss business because you're helping them with the business right so that's easy if they're new but if you haven't already established that relationship that would be a shocking conversation to have.

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I said this to one consultant there was like well that's the most earthshattering thing I've ever heard and I it was because I said well you might just have to give them an apology.

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I was like what?

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I said yeah like did you go to your last business have they ghosted you on the last three.

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_02]: You know quarterly business review calls because the last time you gave them one it was simply terrible.

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_02]: You talked tech the whole time right so if you're being ghosted or they're saying no.

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Or you don't have KBR yeah we don't have them right if you had a poor one you could just apologize and say like I wanted to reach out.

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Damien and say like the last time we chatted I was I'm a tech nerd I was super excited about all the flex capacitors and that is really not the way I would like to have a conversation.

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I would love to sit down with you and hear about your business goals so I can make sure the technology offer you you know that the solutions I have may be helpful.

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Would you be willing to have that chat with me right you might have to have an intermediate chat to convince them that you're not coming to sell anything.

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And if it has been debacle a shove it suggests just reaching out to the decision maker and ask like can I I'd like to describe it coffee and hear how businesses going to see.

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_02]: If there's any way I could help you say we're helping clients if you say the save word that will help right I mean we've helped a lot of clients save on their cybersecurity liability insurance we've helped them reduce ahead count because of productivity till so I'd love to hear where your issues are.

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And take it outside of the normal space where the bad thing happened right if you did have a bad business review if you've never had them before then it's the same conversation without the minus the apology.

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_02]: So.

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, for the record of apologies work even if you apologize about the weather because it makes people want to do something for you so that's a little psychological trick if you know you might want to give the offer the apology anyway.

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I love that be open right be vulnerable apologize right it's a great way to build rapport.

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Tell me about so it's paying attention to your book and maybe if I understood right maybe it's not always a QBO correct.

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, tell me more about that yeah so there are lots of conversations you can have with the client right and it's interesting with the I think about your low value low effort clients where you have a bunch of them right and.

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_02]: They're not paying you enough to drive out have a quarterly business review bring bagels except right what do you do with them.

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I must piece are the masters of automation so why don't you put that to work for you so you've got a marketing platform you can re-market to your existing clients so.

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I like to say this quite a bit if you are not talking to your clients somebody else is.

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So you might think I don't need to advertise my cybersecurity tools to my existing clients because they already have them will let me tell you what your client really doesn't know that they have right they don't know they've got back up say don't know they have securities you need to remind them so as October comes up like hey.

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_02]: It's cybersecurity awareness month you're in good hands with us right don't forget we have all back up sell the time we have you know this tool etc.

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_02]: If you ever have any additional concerns reach out.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_02]: We'd love to help right so you're re-marketing you're having the same conversation you would have you could absolutely send them their asset there you can just automate sending them their budget right that is why we built life cycle insights was is to be able to deliver.

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_02]: a budget quickly to let them see what's coming up small businesses don't have the time truly small businesses don't have the time to spend four hours in a quarterly business review but they need the same information.

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So use your automation to get it to them that way the other thing that I found really successful when I ran customer success was doing anything in bulk like a regional user meeting.

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_02]: a lunch at learn for your existing partners and build a community of folks that want to learn so one of our partners he did he got together with a bank and an insurance company.

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And they get a webinar called stop drop and roll this is how you respond to a cybersecurity incident and they invited all of so think about this in terms of prospecting the bank invited all their partners.

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_02]: The insurance company invited all of their partners and the MSP invited all of his partners all three parties got to talk about their role in an incident.

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And so when the banking customers are listening feeling good about what their banks doing to protect them but realize they have some technology issues.

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Who are they going to turn to the guy that just talked to him about it right so some of that bulk you can do that with all of your existing clients and of course you don't share customer data on that call but if you sent it to him ahead of time and say hey Friday if three.

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to have a conversation around what all this means with all of our clients so you can hear and just go through a generic version of the report how many folks just got their business review.

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And then the other piece in the book after you segmented your clients as we talked about how often they should get a quarterly business review because not everybody needs them quarterly.

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Now that's not always popular said because a lot of the big names in the industry always say quarterly review reviews need to be done quarterly but those same people are assuming that you're charging 200 300 to see.

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_02]: If someone is paying you two or 300 to see then yeah they probably deserve a quarterly business review but if they are not then they might deserve a semi annual an annual or an automated one.

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah was it was it seemed like somebody in the book said something about a rule of thumb based on him or yeah so.

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it was Alex Rogers maybe who suggested unrucks Frank also I've talked to him about it.

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Rex Frank is as changed since the book came out so I will give his up to him one he talks about that for every fifteen hundred dollars per month they spend with you that is how many business reviews they should get in a year.

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_02]: So at fifteen hundred you would get an annual review at three thousand you would get two a year semino right but so that means.

[00:47:25] [SPEAKER_02]: 15 hundred times twelve right if they're spending that much a month then you actually do monthly business reviews with them.

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_00]: There was a part of how interesting talking about you know I kind of see things like math at CS equals CX plus C O.

[00:47:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So to break down acronyms and we're tech people so we like acronyms but if you don't want break down that equation and acronyms and what it means.

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_02]: So that is customer success equals customer experience plus customer outcomes so a lot of times you hear folks use customer experience and customer success interchangeably.

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_02]: But experiences just what it feels like to work with you you can be a really nice guy and incompetent.

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So that is that is like great experience nice guy.

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no one technology works right so we're supposed to be started that way whether we admitted or not.

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So so that is that is why you have to tie together the outcome and the experience.

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_02]: So a lot of folks and I think this is what you were saying at the beginning like we got the outcome we needed the technology is working.

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, but remember eighty three percent of people will stick with you because of the experience even if they're paying more that's pretty telling that they want both the relationship and the experience and outcome.

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So either one of them missing is a threat and the interesting piece is if you are delivering the outcomes and you don't have the customer experience you are more likely to have that unexpected term.

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_02]: They're more likely to just blind side you and drop you and you had no idea.

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I've had MSPs tell me about that right because you know they get blind side of because they're like well we've just everything just works so well for them.

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And then probably somebody else talks to them and you know it's thirty percent less and you're like.

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I, I, T doesn't really break you know well all switch.

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep right because they have no idea.

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean I see it on the on post all the time of like how I'm as fees are having to help the client that asked them or you know the the other MSP that has asked them because the client didn't realize really what they were getting and that's where I was saying earlier you if you're not talking to your clients somebody else is.

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And that is you know in the book we talk about after you segmented your client and you've decided whether it's when you want to keep or not.

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_02]: We also talk about you should score them on how healthy they are and what makes for healthy client right are they having those conversations with you.

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Do they buy into your standards and best practices right is it when I call this client they will absolutely do whatever I say because they know I've got their best interest in mind that's a happy healthy client.

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_02]: If so, he hasn't purchased a new project from you in over a year.

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll be the first to tell you you're in risk of churn and you need to mark him down his red right like stuff like to work for reason so you should have this list I mean this is what we did in my cycle and say it's right was to automate the red.

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean I don't know if you're in a risk of getting a new project or not.

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_02]: But if nothing else create a darn spreadsheet and red yellow green it for yourself so that you know where you're risk it's a scary activity the first time you do this if you've never done this before.

[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_02]: The book is a whopping 499 on Amazon so like just go get it so you can follow the activity.

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Some books I will say are worth the price this is worth far more than 5 dollars.

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Just this spreadsheet you're talking about alone just the customer health alone would be well worth more than 5 dollars.

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Well it was more of just educating folks to do the right way, right? It's just the right thing so we weren't trying to make money on a book.

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_02]: We're just trying to help folks figure out what they need to do but you need to track what makes for healthy client and I promise you the first time you do this.

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I know everyone sitting around thinking like I'm feeling pretty good about it. I'm going to go figure this out and then when you start looking in ranking you are going to be nervous.

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And when you are nervous because sometimes it takes pain to take action, right?

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_02]: People think they don't really need customer success because everything's going fine.

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_02]: When you go figure out that spreadsheet now have caused the pain that you need to take some action and that way.

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_00]: If you don't then you're in my experience you're into producing a major client.

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe not a small one maybe you won't change but eventually you'll lose one of the substantial ones.

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_02]: This has to be different.

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And from there we talk about a care plan or a CPR plan is with one of our clients had if you see someone in the red you've got to decide what action you're going to take to fix it.

[00:52:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Or if that's a client you want to lose anyway.

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_02]: So you do two ratings of like you segment them into the quadrants. You now know on your chart where they fall and when then you color them red yellow and green.

[00:52:39] [SPEAKER_02]: If I've got a high value high effort client that's red.

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you think about a high value in high effort you might think well maybe I don't want high effort client.

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's higher for client is hip a compliant PCI like there's something department of defense like they're they're following all the acronyms frameworks.

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_02]: So you probably have a human at least one head count that is supporting that client.

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you're thinking maybe I don't want them as a client. You also better realize that might mean you have to lose an employee as well right so if that client leaves and you're thinking like oh great.

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't have that pain anymore well that income we're supporting the work of a human.

[00:53:23] [SPEAKER_02]: So you might want to rethink that.

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I love that.

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_00]: So speaking to the people.

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Is this best done by who's just best done by an enemy speed?

[00:53:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So so many times it starts as the owner right because they've got the relationship one of I'm just a quote woman apparently and I'll have a new idea as I just quote other people's ideas but I'll steal this one too.

[00:53:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I believe it was Warren Buffett that said it takes 20 minutes to build a 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it.

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So that is why MSPs owners are resistant to hiring a customer success person because they are afraid that when the hand over the relationship someone's going to trash it right and so I mean I'm a big fan of hiring teachers.

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Why?

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Because teachers are really good at English English translators right I am very good at not knowing what I'm talking about in terms of that thing on the wall and still convincing somebody they should buy it.

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Right because I can translate your need you need internet everywhere in the house.

[00:54:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So therefore just trust my tech guy who's going to do this right.

[00:54:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So you want folks who are like there are customer facing humans that prefer to engage with folks and and not that's not the same as a salesperson.

[00:54:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I said at the beginning of the call that sales folks are often coin operated right and the salesperson is going to go after the upsell and I'm sure many folks listening are thinking like yeah I want them to go after the upsell.

[00:55:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Right a customer success person is going to want to solve the business problem and help the client and they are going to advocate both for what's best for the business as well as what's best for the customer.

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_02]: So what they're not going to get you in trouble with is a bad fit client.

[00:55:25] [SPEAKER_02]: If you, you know the world's about some KPIs are okay ours right if you give someone a quota.

[00:55:35] [SPEAKER_02]: That forces them to sell a solution that is not the right solution for everyone.

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_02]: You're rewarding the wrong behavior and you're going to get bad fit clients and that's not good for your business.

[00:55:47] [SPEAKER_02]: So a customer success person if you are interviewing for this position, you should ask them to tell you stories about their like tell me away you have helped.

[00:56:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Tell me away that you have helped.

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I a previous customer and they will then like you'll be able to hear from their answer of like are they coin operated they sell a tool they need or do they solve a problem that they needed.

[00:56:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I love that.

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that once you get a little larger is that only the owner or and who's the next person is that the chief technical officer or maybe my head tech is that better fit if it's like the service staff manager or kind of delivery.

[00:56:34] [SPEAKER_00]: What what what we're doing need to go outside and hire a pierce yes person.

[00:56:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So that typically happens around 10 or 11 9 or 10 ish employees right when you hire pure customer success I see more folks is interested.

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Here you say that but I know MSP in most 10 person MSPs have don't even use the word customer success level and have hired one full time correct correct.

[00:56:59] [SPEAKER_02]: That is really what you don't have 20 employees that don't have a you know yeah at nine to 10 is where you typically have the need for the processes in place and start handing over the relationship.

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_02]: So it could be a service desk coordinator right it's definitely a customer facing someone.

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_02]: The first time you have the process it'll probably be a team of three because you're going to have to have your engineer that can help inform the QBR but you might be able to have a help desk person.

[00:57:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Look at tickets see what their problems are, etc.

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_02]: It's interesting when folks first come in sometimes you'll find a help desk person that really wants to accelerate in the technical half of it or on the customer success side of it.

[00:57:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I say that because I birthed one of those and he is very much customer success focus he's very technical but he absolutely is is kind and wants to help.

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And is good with people and can talk to you about your problems and so it's a good place to start there to see who has can build those good relationships.

[00:58:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I love that I don't know how many people they can say they birthed one of them.

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_03]: I think I'm actually new.

[00:58:13] [SPEAKER_00]: That's amazing.

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Well there a lot of guys in the space so none of them are saying they birthed one they may have had one but I actually birthed one yeah.

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I love that that is that is you know mic drop moment right there like who's going to compete.

[00:58:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to mention I kind of personal touch and how this fits in especially with that and you mentioned like automation.

[00:58:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to switch gears because you talk about you really you see MSPs and you value in business is value automation but not losing the personal touch.

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So how do we how do we do that I know I'm guilty as a tech person that's been in MSP to just like let's automate everything and then you know there's no personal touch left.

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah for sure so from the end client perspective you need to ask them like what's really important that helps to establish the personality of your business because we don't want to live.

[00:59:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I think we can do that through automation and then you need to think about the same for your business right are you fine with an automated answering machine.

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you're like yeah I am because they need to route that way is there where you can put your personality into that you know that's sort of the marketing of it.

[00:59:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think when you're talking to clients you need to talk about like where are those.

[00:59:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Opportunities to show the personality right because that's a lot of what the customer success brings to the party.

[00:59:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I think when you're training customer success that.

[00:59:49] [SPEAKER_02]: You know if you're hiring someone for it you need to make sure you have those conversations around culture and core values so that everyone knows how they're going to I mean everyone needs to know that you help us.

[00:59:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And then you need to know that because for success really needs to know how they're presenting.

[01:00:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And so because they're presenting your company.

[01:00:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Right now that way we don't over automate.

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah correct right because if I under if I got anything out of this one of the things is I'm not dropping off our report.

[01:00:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Correct.

[01:00:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not even going to be a PDF out to quarter.

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_02]: No please.

[01:00:23] [SPEAKER_00]: To, you know that's not a QBR.

[01:00:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:00:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Since I've also learned that it doesn't necessarily need to happen quarterly.

[01:00:32] [SPEAKER_00]: What do we call this?

[01:00:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Strategic business review, executive business review, periodic business review.

[01:00:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I've heard of all.

[01:00:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[01:00:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I like strategic myself.

[01:00:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Some say technical business review but again that sounds technical rather have.

[01:00:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:00:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Rather talk business rather be the strategic advisor.

[01:00:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:00:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I got it.

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd love to get your perspective as a kind of self professed a non technical person.

[01:00:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[01:00:57] [SPEAKER_00]: How do we balance the automation in personal touch and helping your clients in this AI thing?

[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Always given the eject button where they can actually get a human.

[01:01:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[01:01:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I want automation because that's surely a lot easier and I'm working at 7.30 at night.

[01:01:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want it.

[01:01:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I just don't really like.

[01:01:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So self-help as much as possible and eject button that'll say take me to a human.

[01:01:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I love that.

[01:01:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think it's in the world of character revolution.

[01:01:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[01:01:28] [SPEAKER_02]: The thing that'll make you stand out is your character traits, your soft skills.

[01:01:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So make sure you have the opportunity to do so.

[01:01:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:01:39] [SPEAKER_00]: You're injecting it a real human.

[01:01:41] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you say that use I think if you look at MSB websites and probably most websites,

[01:01:47] [SPEAKER_00]: but MSB specifically, if we look back a decade ago, I think there was a lot more

[01:01:51] [SPEAKER_00]: phone numbers on there.

[01:01:53] [SPEAKER_02]: For sure.

[01:01:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my goodness.

[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And having forbidden somebody again, MSB self-unnumbered.

[01:01:57] [SPEAKER_02]: You'll hear the diet drive for sure.

[01:02:01] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I mean to be able to access a human makes a world of difference.

[01:02:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:02:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:02:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I think there's too much just a minute to take it.

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and sometimes you're like, okay, I'll do it.

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_00]: But sometimes I need an eject button which I love how you frame that.

[01:02:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I love that.

[01:02:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes I do need to eject and parachute down and play and safely.

[01:02:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[01:02:24] [SPEAKER_00]: We talked about automation.

[01:02:25] [SPEAKER_00]: We talked about leadership, business value reviews.

[01:02:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I've enjoyed by the way love your MSB owners handbook.

[01:02:31] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're an owner of MSB or anything like that, definitely read MSB owners handbook.

[01:02:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, we've talked about literally the book on customer success firm

[01:02:41] [SPEAKER_00]: SP's.

[01:02:41] [SPEAKER_00]: You got the QBR edition.

[01:02:43] [SPEAKER_00]: But I want to talk since we spent so much time about leadership and I think we could talk whole episode.

[01:02:48] [SPEAKER_00]: So we may have to do that.

[01:02:50] [SPEAKER_00]: But tell me about the new book behind you.

[01:02:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So yep, that is leading like LASO.

[01:02:56] [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, it is based on it is our story and leadership framework paralleled with the

[01:03:05] [SPEAKER_02]: project.

[01:03:06] [SPEAKER_02]: If you haven't seen Ted LASO, it's a fish out of water story.

[01:03:09] [SPEAKER_02]: He is an American football coach who went and coached European football.

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And there were two full internets that things he didn't know about football but we learned a lot about coaching.

[01:03:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And in the same three years that Ted LASO aired, those are the same three years we scaled and sold life cycle insights.

[01:03:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And very much fish out of water right?

[01:03:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I was a high school man teacher as CEO of a tech company in the tech space like in the land of fish out of water.

[01:03:32] [SPEAKER_02]: That's it.

[01:03:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Right?

[01:03:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm the only one birthing CS people in here right?

[01:03:39] [SPEAKER_02]: So, so we wrote the book.

[01:03:42] [SPEAKER_02]: It's got some awards.

[01:03:43] [SPEAKER_02]: It's really been pretty fantastic and we are building a masterclass on it.

[01:03:47] [SPEAKER_02]: So if people are interested in personal leadership, so you don't need to be, you can be a leader in a board

[01:03:53] [SPEAKER_02]: or a mocker room, a living room, right?

[01:03:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And then you need to learn to lay yourself as well.

[01:03:58] [SPEAKER_02]: So we really tried to make it a very human leadership, not just I'm CEO of a company leadership book.

[01:04:06] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's called a leadership book for life your life.

[01:04:10] [SPEAKER_00]: This is the first time I don't know.

[01:04:11] [SPEAKER_00]: So you might still take me if I'm a CEO.

[01:04:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh 100%.

[01:04:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[01:04:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I still like all seeing us welcome.

[01:04:17] [SPEAKER_02]: But we also have we've had a lot of parents, a lot of college students, a lot of teachers, book clubs.

[01:04:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Someone bought 300 copies the other day.

[01:04:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Their whole company is getting copies of the book because they want everyone to see their own leadership role in there.

[01:04:34] [SPEAKER_04]: In their work.

[01:04:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:04:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So thanks for asking.

[01:04:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for having me.

[01:04:39] [SPEAKER_00]: This was wonderful.

[01:04:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Marnie.

[01:04:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I know I could take your time all day but I would love to, but I shouldn't.

[01:04:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for being on MSP mindset.

[01:04:47] [SPEAKER_00]: That's been amazing.

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.