Automation: Your Path to a More Profitable MSP, with Sean Maguire (MSP Titan #1)

[00:00:00] Hey guys, today's episode is sponsored by Servocity. I created Servocity because I was an MSP who lost data and had to face my client. I don't want you to ever be in that situation. So what's different about Servocity is that we test your backups maniacally. We do them, we test those daily, weekly, monthly, and quarterly. We manage the backups for you. So 80% of your workload is gone and you can focus on your core mission.

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[00:00:38] You tend to think a little bit lazy, right? Like, I don't want to do this multiple times when I know that I can automate it. So, you know, being lazy there in that situation, in that context is a really good thing because it gives you the motivation to spend the time, work the few extra hours, you know, stay a little bit late because you're not going to be able to do it.

[00:00:59] You know that you're not going to have to do it again, right? Because you've already automated it and spent the time doing it.

[00:01:04] Hey guys, Damian Stevens, host of MSP Mindset. Today, we have our first MSP Titan style interview. This is where I personally interview the founder and CEO of the top 500 most innovative and fastest growing MSPs on the planet.

[00:01:27] Today, I got the pleasure of interviewing Sean McGuire of Cinovate. And he's not only a top 500 CEO, he is on the Inc. 5000 with 152% three-year growth.

[00:01:40] What's most interesting to me is he managed to do all that with just 10 people. So if you want to learn best in class, culture, remote work, automation, business processes, and more, don't miss out on today's conversation.

[00:01:57] Take me back to the beginning. Why did you start Cinovate and how did that get going?

[00:02:05] Yeah. So I was working for a pretty large company, multinational company right out of school and, you know, slowly realized that this might not be for me.

[00:02:17] Had an opportunity with a small cabling company to kind of get in and start doing some cabling work and just kind of really break in.

[00:02:25] Not really technology, but cabling voice data. And so started doing some of that and realized, yeah, I probably just do this on my own, right?

[00:02:34] I feel like I can do this. So why don't I go off on my own and start my own shop and kind of started doing that in 2011.

[00:02:41] Really a lot of phone system, telephony, communications, basic business comps, and not so much technology.

[00:02:51] But very quickly, you know, I started to see a shift with communications and cabling with, I mean, I think 2011, like Microsoft 365 had just been announced or had just,

[00:03:02] I was very early in the stages there of 365. And of course, now that's like the number one core product for MSPs for management.

[00:03:11] But, you know, started small with voice data cabling work and just slowly over time transitioned into IT work.

[00:03:19] I mean, really, it kind of started out with a client of ours saying, hey, you know, we kind of, our IT guy is not great at getting back to us.

[00:03:27] You know, everybody's got an IT guy, but a lot of times they're not so great in terms of response times, especially with a very small, you know, one or two person company, understandably.

[00:03:38] So, you know, can you help us? And I've, you know, always been technology savvy, working on our computers my whole life.

[00:03:46] So I said, hey, yeah, why don't we give this a shot?

[00:03:48] I started off with just break fixed work, kind of adding that into the portfolio and that transition to doing some managed hosting and managed email hosting.

[00:03:58] Just slowly transitioned into doing more managed services.

[00:04:02] I think around 2013, 2014, we had a client that was growing really, really fast and, you know, kind of started with them, you know, 100 bucks a seat, 30 people, 3K a month.

[00:04:15] And that's really where it all started for us.

[00:04:17] So once we were able to do that, it was kind of a proof of concept, hired a full time tech slash engineer.

[00:04:24] And that's really where things kind of started for us, for sure.

[00:04:28] I love that.

[00:04:29] Love that.

[00:04:29] So you started off with pretty humble beginnings, right?

[00:04:33] I think I could run cables and that kind of thing.

[00:04:37] And then I'd love to hear.

[00:04:40] So what's interesting to me is you're in the MSP, you know, top 501, somewhere in the 150 or somewhere range.

[00:04:49] So definitely a top MSP, Inc 5000, right?

[00:04:53] I think it was like 152% through your growth.

[00:04:56] But at that time, like 10 employees.

[00:04:59] So how do you do that?

[00:05:03] For sure.

[00:05:03] So I think a pretty big statistic here.

[00:05:07] Let's look at this, right?

[00:05:08] So about 42% of our tickets here at Cinevate are closed with automation.

[00:05:14] 42% of our tickets that get open are closed with automation.

[00:05:17] So that's upfront time investment, but long-term ROI, right?

[00:05:23] And so just operationally, it's just fantastic.

[00:05:26] I mean, of course, it takes time to automate.

[00:05:29] So we do spend a lot of time on automation and we invest a lot of internal, you know, R&D time and automation.

[00:05:37] But it does pay off in the long run.

[00:05:40] So for us, you know, continuing to grow and scale the business, we'll just, we'll be just literally that that should grow with us, right?

[00:05:48] That pretty high automation close rate.

[00:05:51] We see, you know, it's everything, right?

[00:05:54] But just all different types of tickets.

[00:05:56] You know, on average, I think MSPs are, every MSP out there is doing some type of an automation, right?

[00:06:02] They're doing something.

[00:06:03] It's just a matter of how far you're taking that automation.

[00:06:06] So for us, like a low disk space ticket as an MSP that comes in, right?

[00:06:12] So these are very common tickets that we all see.

[00:06:15] I think we can all relate to a low disk space ticket.

[00:06:17] So something like that, you know, I would say probably like a level one automation, you might, you know, run some type of cleanup script or, you know, delete some files or whatever, right?

[00:06:27] That's pretty basic.

[00:06:28] That's pretty important to do.

[00:06:30] And I would say most MSPs are doing that where we're kind of taking things to another level on an example of that ticket there, right?

[00:06:37] So we will kind of query some of the information that's on the machine, build out reports, send information to the user, look up who the last logged in user was, you know, locate that with their email address.

[00:06:50] And then all of that information gets sent back and forth.

[00:06:53] So we're using different systems and different APIs to sort of initiate that first human response with the user so that we can get some input on going back and forth.

[00:07:04] You know, some other examples for us, like, you know, we're doing automation with new user creation.

[00:07:08] So somebody, of course, growing customers or companies that we want to work with, and they're constantly growing and adding new users.

[00:07:15] And, you know, a big thing that we hear, a lot of times when we're talking to a prospective client is, you know, hey, we're working with MSP and they might not be doing a great job with new user onboarding.

[00:07:26] So maybe that MSP is, you know, they're following a checklist, but it's a manual checklist.

[00:07:31] And it's in the PSA as, you know, set up this, set up that, set up this, set up that.

[00:07:35] It's just, it's very easy to miss something.

[00:07:37] And it's just, we all make mistakes and it's super easy to just skip by one step.

[00:07:41] And then the user starts, the employee starts at the company, and then they're missing access to a certain application.

[00:07:47] And that creates a ticket.

[00:07:49] That's more load on the help desk.

[00:07:50] It's just not great.

[00:07:52] So we've really taken the time to automate a lot of that.

[00:07:56] So when our clients have a new hire, they fill out the form on our portal.

[00:08:01] And that information gets automatically built into an automation script that we've built to create the new user, add them into the right groups, set up the appropriate resources, set up the appropriate tickets to get them access to, you know, whatever systems they need to get access to.

[00:08:18] Send the right welcome emails to, you know, the individual, showing them how to access certain systems.

[00:08:23] So, I mean, it's a little bit of automation and a little bit of, you know, just best practice, but kind of circling back to that initial statistic there.

[00:08:33] Yeah, 42% of the tickets that we're running through on average are closed with our automation.

[00:08:41] 42%.

[00:08:41] That seems like a gigantic number.

[00:08:44] Is that, I'm sure there's an answer here in between, but I'd love to hear it.

[00:08:48] Does that mean that you guys are just process gurus?

[00:08:52] Like you understand process better than anybody else in business process?

[00:08:55] Are you more of the tech guru and like, you know, our processes are not any better than others, but boy, we're, we just automate everything.

[00:09:03] And we're, we're, we're really like, you know, uh, a connect wise automation guru.

[00:09:09] Uh, I'm sure there's other facets, but I'm kind of curious.

[00:09:11] How, how do you, what's your secret sauce that allows you to get to that?

[00:09:15] Um, I think we tend to think like, okay, if we're going to have to do something twice or three times or four times or five times, we should really think about automating it.

[00:09:26] Right.

[00:09:26] Because this might only take us 15 minutes to do and 15 minutes here, 10 minutes here, 15 minutes here, 10 minutes there.

[00:09:34] It takes, you know, six or eight hours to automate.

[00:09:37] But when you're doing that five or six times a day over a period of weeks and months for certain, you know, different clients, it does make sense to automate it.

[00:09:45] I think it's not necessarily a secret sauce as it is being able to dedicate and put aside some time to, to build the automation and do it right.

[00:09:56] The first time, um, I think it's difficult for a lot of MSPs to, to be in a position to do that because we are often in very reactive modes.

[00:10:05] We're often in, you know, firefighting mode, this broke, that broke.

[00:10:09] Um, we've got a backup that failed and now we've got to fix it and we've got to rebuild servers.

[00:10:14] Tell me about that.

[00:10:15] Yeah.

[00:10:16] Right.

[00:10:16] All different kinds of things can, can happen as an MSP from day to day.

[00:10:21] Um, so it is very difficult to prioritize automation, but if you can prioritize automation, when it makes sense, right?

[00:10:28] Because it doesn't always make sense.

[00:10:29] It doesn't make sense to, to automate everything, even if you're doing it multiple times, but when it makes sense, automate it.

[00:10:36] And it's really going to pay off in the long run.

[00:10:38] I think it's one of those things that it's not just the MSP that reaps the benefits of automation.

[00:10:44] It's really the client.

[00:10:45] At the end of the day, the client is reaping the benefits of automation because they're getting the same result every single time.

[00:10:53] The new person that starts next week, that one of the, you know, whatever technician completes that ticket or works on that ticket is the same process that's followed.

[00:11:02] The technician that we just hire who's on day 15 and they're working their first onboarding ticket.

[00:11:08] It's the same process and they're not really being trained on anything any differently.

[00:11:13] It's really the, the use of the automation.

[00:11:18] So I love that.

[00:11:20] Can you give me some examples?

[00:11:22] Uh, you mentioned like Lotus space, but I think when we talked before, there's just a lot of areas that you've, um, decided to not hire.

[00:11:33] Yeah.

[00:11:33] And yeah, so, so a lot of times, you know, we hear automation and we just naturally think, you know, tech stack, tech tools, but automation can be leveraged, of course, in the, in the business side.

[00:11:44] Right.

[00:11:44] So for us, we're pretty low in terms of admin and support staff and support team.

[00:11:51] So, you know, pretty much the whole team here is, is operating on, you know, tech operations.

[00:11:56] Right.

[00:11:57] So, so we're running service delivery, engineering, all of that, but not so much administration work.

[00:12:02] Right.

[00:12:03] So, you know, just from an accounting perspective, right.

[00:12:06] As an MSP where we're automating the billing process and AP and AR, a lot of that process is fully automated.

[00:12:13] So it's not just the technology stack and tech tools.

[00:12:17] It's automating some of the business processes as well, you know, end user onboarding we talked about, but also new client onboarding.

[00:12:25] There are items to be automated there as well.

[00:12:28] Bringing them into your system, setting up the integrations between your tools and your PSAs.

[00:12:33] I think back to the tech, you know, operation side of automation, a lot of the tools that we work with do have APIs.

[00:12:42] And if we can learn to build integrations with those APIs, sometimes it can be a little bit easier than you think.

[00:12:47] Right.

[00:12:48] It's, it's not that bad.

[00:12:50] Right.

[00:12:50] So building some integration between the APIs that you have with your tools can really, you can really, you know, reap some benefits there on the ROI side.

[00:13:00] Yeah.

[00:13:00] I just wanted to kind of double click on that.

[00:13:03] The API, I feel like some people run and, you know, I was an MSP, so I understand like, you know, integration or automation is kind of more up my alley, but also you'd have a development background.

[00:13:14] And just if you're, if you've ever done anything, you know, you're going to use APIs.

[00:13:18] They're not as scary as you might think, at least there's a lot of them.

[00:13:22] You can do some things.

[00:13:23] Sure.

[00:13:23] There are some that are harder to approach, but you would be surprised how often you could tie together a few systems.

[00:13:30] So if you're listening to this and you're saying, oh, APIs throw my hands up in the air, you know, do I have to have a developer?

[00:13:36] How about you?

[00:13:37] Who does that on your team?

[00:13:39] Do you, do you have a, some software development ways is, uh, tell me about the actual people and the skillset that does that on your team.

[00:13:46] Yeah.

[00:13:47] Yeah.

[00:13:47] So we have a few team members internally here that have, you know, sort of taken the reins here of, of integrating and building with APIs.

[00:13:55] Not so much from a development background, but more so just from, you know, self-paced and independent learning.

[00:14:01] And so to your point, Damien of like, yeah, if you hear API, you know, you don't have to hire a developer.

[00:14:07] You can probably figure it out.

[00:14:09] It's pretty straightforward stuff.

[00:14:10] Um, you know, you just need to get in there and start looking at it and seeing what's available because a lot of the tools and systems that we work with, you know, sometimes it could just be one very simple piece of integration that you need to build between two systems that can make a pretty big difference.

[00:14:27] When it comes to, you know, client reporting or just anything that you're doing, right.

[00:14:31] Anything that we're doing in this business, you know, we can probably do a little bit of a better job if we build out some type of an integration.

[00:14:38] Not to say that tools and APIs and all of this stuff fixes, you know, business problems at the root, at the core of an MSP things that, you know, challenges that MSPs face every day.

[00:14:49] You can't fix all of that with automation and APIs, right.

[00:14:54] But you can take off some of the load, right.

[00:14:57] And make sure that you're doing a lot of things really well and repeatable by leveraging some APIs and automation.

[00:15:04] I was, I wanted to kind of talk about this because you're so much more automated than the typical MSP.

[00:15:10] And I want to get into the business part.

[00:15:11] But before I do, I want to talk about, like, I think you're being a little humble here and I may have to pull that out of you, right.

[00:15:19] But how many folks do you have?

[00:15:22] Do you have any folks in dispatch?

[00:15:24] Yeah, we do have one dispatcher here.

[00:15:26] Yeah.

[00:15:27] And then accounting.

[00:15:30] Nobody in accounting.

[00:15:31] Okay.

[00:15:31] So do you, do you attribute that?

[00:15:33] Well sourced, but it's very, it's very low workload.

[00:15:36] So yeah, no.

[00:15:37] So you're not, you know, cause a lot of people just say, here's my office admin who does some, you know, I can tell you being on the other side that they, you know, being on the vendor side now and they, they are getting our bills sometimes and manually putting them in and, and just a, the least efficient way.

[00:15:53] So you've re if I understand you've really lowered dispatch workload, you've almost eliminated the accounting workload.

[00:16:00] Uh, yes.

[00:16:03] In addition to all the technical aspects, right.

[00:16:06] I know accounting and dispatcher are technical in their own right, but you know, that kind of, uh, administrative or non purely engineer workload.

[00:16:15] You've also lessened.

[00:16:16] Is that right?

[00:16:17] Yeah.

[00:16:18] Yeah.

[00:16:18] So a lot of our engineering time is spent, we have two, I would say two and a half, three, um, kind of swing technical account manager roles that are working a little bit on engineering, but say between two and three, um, folks on the team here that are working on engineering work, development, APIs, customer projects.

[00:16:37] So we're, we're pretty small team, right?

[00:16:39] So it's not like we have a dedicated professional services team, a dedicated managed services team.

[00:16:45] Um, you know, it's, it's like, I like to say, I guess there's really like three different types of MSPs out there.

[00:16:50] You have the really large MSPs.

[00:16:52] They have PS teams.

[00:16:53] They've got MSP teams, cloud teams, really large players in the space.

[00:16:58] Right.

[00:16:58] And they're definitely big enough to get the job done, but they, they might not be, they're a little bit too big to care.

[00:17:04] Right.

[00:17:04] About some of the smaller engagements and smaller clients that we work with.

[00:17:08] Right.

[00:17:08] And, you know, you have companies like us that are big enough to get the job done.

[00:17:11] Um, we might not have independent teams for each individual professional service, managed service.

[00:17:17] There is a little bit of an advantage to the clients there, right?

[00:17:20] Because we, we tend to be exposed to a lot of what's going on.

[00:17:23] So the clients have really a really large team at their disposal that fully understands their operation and their challenges.

[00:17:30] So, you know, big enough to care, big enough to know all about the client and big enough to get the job done.

[00:17:35] Um, but again, small enough to care.

[00:17:37] And then you've got the really small MSPs and the really small guys, you know, one or two, three person firms.

[00:17:43] It can be very challenging for them because like we talked about automation.

[00:17:47] How do you spend time automating anything really when you're constantly answering phone calls from clients, right?

[00:17:54] Even if you've only got four or five clients, it's just constant nonstop, you know, being in sort of reactive mode.

[00:18:00] So it's very challenging.

[00:18:01] Um, and I do think that being able to put, put aside some time for, for automation will, will really help.

[00:18:08] It can really help those MSPs scale up a little bit.

[00:18:10] Um, but yeah, getting back to the, to the team size.

[00:18:14] Yes.

[00:18:14] No HR folks, dedicated HR folks right here.

[00:18:18] It's, it's really myself, um, you know, owner slash HR slash sales.

[00:18:24] Um, no dedicated admin staff here.

[00:18:28] Um, you know, really sales.

[00:18:30] Uh, we have a new salesperson on the team, but it's, you know, between one and two myself.

[00:18:34] Right.

[00:18:35] Um, and that's, that's pretty much it.

[00:18:38] And then of course, you know, service delivery dispatch, um, we've got, uh, between three and four, you know, level one to level two and a half, um, service delivery team.

[00:18:48] And I say level two and a half because we've really built a really solid framework around, you know, escalation and, and ticket management so that everybody feels empowered to be able to work on those higher items.

[00:19:01] Um, you know, I think as an MSP, we're constantly, we, you talked a few minutes ago about having a ticket, you know, like working the same ticket, right?

[00:19:10] Nobody really wants to do that.

[00:19:12] And it's, it's so true, right?

[00:19:13] So, you know, you get in with an MSP.

[00:19:16] Most of the time we hire somebody that's, you know, get just very basic experience, maybe break, fix, computer repair or whatnot.

[00:19:23] And they're starting and they're trying to learn and, you know, but very quickly they, they tend to learn and scale up and they want to have additional opportunities as well.

[00:19:32] And we want to create additional opportunities for them.

[00:19:34] So we don't want them to be stuck doing the mundane, you know, ticket work, right?

[00:19:39] So definitely automating is, is an advantage there for sure.

[00:19:43] Interesting.

[00:19:44] Interesting.

[00:19:44] So I know as an MSP, everything was urgent and everybody was urgent and it felt like all we were doing was putting out fires.

[00:19:50] So how do you accomplish that?

[00:19:52] Do you say it's Bob's job over here?

[00:19:55] This person, this role is the guy that does it part time or everybody, you know, takes X amount of time.

[00:20:03] How do you, how do you actually make time?

[00:20:04] Because we all say we want to make time and we seem, at least I seem to not get around to that too often.

[00:20:11] Um, so what's your approach?

[00:20:13] Yeah, for sure.

[00:20:14] So our approach, I mean, there's a couple of different things here.

[00:20:16] Um, one of them, you know, we have well over 30 managed clients, right?

[00:20:22] Well into the six figure territory in terms of MR.

[00:20:26] Um, and across that base, we, Damien, we have two by the end of this year, right now we have four, by the end of this year, we will have two clients that have physical servers.

[00:20:37] So almost all of our clients are in the cloud.

[00:20:41] They're all leveraging, you know, mainstream SAS applications.

[00:20:45] And if they're not leveraging SAS applications, they're in Azure and we've sort of standardized and automated that Azure approach.

[00:20:54] So it's kind of the same thing every single time, um, and just standardization across the board.

[00:20:59] So that's how we've been able to, to build time.

[00:21:02] I think as MSPs, we always, always talk about standardization, how important standardization is.

[00:21:10] Right.

[00:21:10] But it's almost like how compliant are we as an MSP with our own standardization guidelines?

[00:21:17] We love to talk about it, but our, you know, sometimes we'll talk to, I might talk to an MSP at a conference and they say, well, you know, we're, we're standardized, but like we've got a few, we, we standardized with SonicWall firewalls, but we've got a few Merakis.

[00:21:31] We've got a few watch guards.

[00:21:32] We've got a few, so it's like 80%, but then, you know, what happens is the two watch guards or the two Merakis that you have, and then you have all SonicWall that takes your team five, six times the amount of time to solve those challenges.

[00:21:46] And then they're engaging.

[00:21:48] You've got several team members working on the same ticket because they haven't touched it in so long.

[00:21:52] So I think, you know, the answer or leaning towards a little bit of the answer here is standardization.

[00:22:00] If you really, really stick to your guns when, when you're standardizing, then I think you end up having a little bit more time to work with because those deployments are a little bit easier because you're doing the same thing every single time.

[00:22:15] You know, avoiding tool hopping.

[00:22:17] You know, a lot of times we look at new tools and we say, that's a fancy new RMM.

[00:22:22] It has this feature built in, or it has this automation, you know, built in.

[00:22:26] Maybe I can purchase that RMM and that will save me time.

[00:22:30] And a lot of times it looks good at the surface and they're playing great tools out there.

[00:22:35] And we should be looking at new tools, but it's not always the answer.

[00:22:38] And then you end up spending more time and then you realize that it's missing a feature that you needed.

[00:22:44] And then your last tool had it.

[00:22:46] And then, so now you're just kind of constantly spinning your wheels.

[00:22:50] So we kind of tried to avoid that approach and looked at the API approach and said, if the tools that we're using don't have the capabilities built into them, then let's, let's build it.

[00:23:00] Let's try to integrate it.

[00:23:02] I love that.

[00:23:03] I love that.

[00:23:04] Let's build it.

[00:23:04] Let's take that on ourselves.

[00:23:07] Because now you have more control.

[00:23:09] You have more agency over what you can automate instead of saying, well, all I can do is wait for vendor A to integrate with vendor B or, and then I can click the connect button.

[00:23:20] So I love the agency.

[00:23:23] Tell me about the business impact, right?

[00:23:25] I mean, from the 152% three-year growth, keeping your head count low, still being a top MSP, you know, that you've got to have much higher revenue per employee than the typical MSP.

[00:23:38] For sure.

[00:23:39] Yeah, I think, I think we definitely have a higher ratio of revenue per employee than, you know, typical MSP.

[00:23:45] I think mainly because of the administration, you know, the less administration overhead that we have because we've tried to automate, you know, other areas of the business.

[00:23:54] I think that really plays into, into account here for sure.

[00:23:57] So definitely.

[00:23:58] But the key here for us is going to be to continue that as we scale and as we grow.

[00:24:04] So we are definitely in a position where we're, we're actively looking for, you know, other MSPs that are, that are interested in joining the platform.

[00:24:13] You know, maybe leveraging some of that additional overhead collectively could make sense for us, you know, as a, as a group.

[00:24:20] So yeah, definitely, you know, some interesting things that we have in the pipeline looking ahead, right, over the next several years.

[00:24:27] But really we want to leverage a lot of this automation that we built for a pretty small team and a small group of clients to an even larger group of clients and even more staff.

[00:24:39] That's interesting.

[00:24:40] So were you the spearhead?

[00:24:42] Was it somebody on your team that, that was like, Hey, I want to be, you know, the, you know, best in class in automation and business efficiency, or, you know, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but how did that start?

[00:24:55] Yeah.

[00:24:56] Yeah.

[00:24:56] So it really started, I would say collectively, you know, as a team, but we would, you know, tend to, I come a little bit from, you know, an engineering background.

[00:25:04] And so I've, I've been in there, you know, working on servers myself.

[00:25:08] And we tend to think a little bit, you know, like, okay, well, if I'm going to do this multiple times, you tend to think a little bit lazy, right?

[00:25:17] Like, I don't want to do this multiple times when I know that I can automate it.

[00:25:22] So, so, you know, being lazy there in that situation, in that context is a really good thing because it gives you the motivation to spend the time, work the few extra hours, you know, stay a little bit late because you know that you're not going to have to do it again.

[00:25:38] Right.

[00:25:38] Because you've already automated it and spent the time doing it.

[00:25:40] I love that.

[00:25:42] I want to switch gears for a moment and talk a little bit about remote work.

[00:25:47] It seems like we have some folks that do hybrid, some that do remote, but on the average, I would say most MSPs are still, I'm hiring in my backyard, that sort of thing.

[00:25:57] And tell me about your, your position on that and the way you view it.

[00:26:02] Yeah.

[00:26:02] So, I mean, looking back historically to, you know, 2011, 2013, up until probably 2017, 2018, I think I was pretty strong in terms of everybody needs to be in the office.

[00:26:14] Everybody needs to be there to collaborate.

[00:26:17] I think around 2018, 2019, we really started to see a little bit of a shift.

[00:26:21] We had some team members that wanted to work remotely, really made a lot of sense for them.

[00:26:27] And so we started to adopt that and move into a little bit more of a hybrid approach, but still a lot in the office.

[00:26:33] And then of course, you know, COVID came around and everybody started working remote.

[00:26:37] We just really haven't looked back.

[00:26:39] We've had several days that we've had the whole company in the office and it tends to be, it almost feels like it's a little bit less productive than when we're remote.

[00:26:49] Um, everybody has more time when they're remote.

[00:26:52] There's less time that you're spending, you know, on the road, getting to the office, less time that you're spending, you know, driving home.

[00:26:59] And you end up spending a little bit longer working on automation or client projects or tickets or whatever it is that you're working on at the beginning of the day and at the end of the day.

[00:27:09] So our approach to it is, it's really a hybrid approach.

[00:27:13] I mean, we have to have, you know, some of the team in the office.

[00:27:15] I'm in the office quite a bit.

[00:27:18] We have sales teams in the office.

[00:27:20] We have some of the techs that are in the office on a regular basis.

[00:27:22] We're setting up laptops for clients.

[00:27:25] We have customers that are kind of scattered all over the place.

[00:27:28] So we need to ship laptops for new hires, whether it be, you know, a new hire here in Massachusetts, a new hire in Florida, California, wherever.

[00:27:36] We need to be able to ship devices out.

[00:27:38] And so we need to be in the office to be able to manage that procurement process.

[00:27:42] But as a whole, it's pretty hybrid for us.

[00:27:46] We do spend quite a bit of time working remote and it does work out really well for us.

[00:27:52] What do you see the future for you guys in that role?

[00:27:55] Do you, it sounds like remote still means within driving distance to the office for everyone.

[00:28:00] Is that where you see that staying or changing?

[00:28:04] Yeah.

[00:28:05] So it's, I would say we kind of have two different types of team members here at Cinevate.

[00:28:10] So some that are fully remote, like say 95% of the time they're remote.

[00:28:15] And then some that are sort of 50-50.

[00:28:18] And so it's kind of a split, right?

[00:28:19] It's kind of a split right across, right down the middle almost.

[00:28:22] During COVID, we needed to hire, we realized that we need to hire an account manager, right?

[00:28:27] We need a technical account manager, somebody to do dedicated VCIO work, pretty important part of any MSP.

[00:28:34] And so we posted a job for it, right?

[00:28:37] Posted a career offer out there and looked to see what's available.

[00:28:42] And so we ended up having some folks that applied out of state, even though it was advertised as sort of like a hybrid role.

[00:28:49] But it opened up the opportunity to say, okay, I don't just have to hire here in my backyard.

[00:28:55] I have a much larger pool to hire from, which means I can probably find somebody who's a much better fit for the role because I'm just scaling out across a much larger area.

[00:29:07] And so we did that.

[00:29:08] We hired somebody that is in Florida, right?

[00:29:11] They're not in Massachusetts here in our backyard and they're 100% remote.

[00:29:15] But it's worked out great.

[00:29:17] And so our approach has really been, you know, just kind of think a little bit outside the box and not be so set in, okay, they have to be able to drive to the office.

[00:29:27] You know, it might be okay if they can't drive to the office.

[00:29:30] That's okay.

[00:29:31] I mean, they're able to do their job remotely.

[00:29:33] There's no need for them to be here.

[00:29:36] So what advice would you give to other MSPs?

[00:29:38] Do you think there's a role for, do you think there are certain roles that make sense to be 100% remote?

[00:29:44] Yeah.

[00:29:45] So I think you need to have, well, first you need to have the right data, right?

[00:29:49] You need to be monitoring the right KPIs.

[00:29:51] You need to build accountability into the culture.

[00:29:54] That's super important.

[00:29:56] Before you can really even consider remote work.

[00:29:59] And if you've kind of already gone to remote work without having that, definitely stop and look at building some of those, you know, KPIs and just introducing that into your culture.

[00:30:09] But I think, you know, the future here is a little bit of a hybrid approach.

[00:30:14] You know, I think as an MSP, there's always going to be things that we need to do in person.

[00:30:18] And we, most of the time, we'll always have, you know, our core group of clients that are close to our office.

[00:30:23] So we're going to need to have some folks available to be on site.

[00:30:28] But a lot of the team can definitely work remote.

[00:30:31] So it's really a hybrid approach.

[00:30:33] But it also depends on, you know, the MSP and what their clients look like, right?

[00:30:38] We kind of fell into, you know, digital media vertical.

[00:30:41] We've got a lot of clients that are 100% remote.

[00:30:44] So a lot of the companies that we're working with, they are 100% remote.

[00:30:48] They don't have an office.

[00:30:50] So it kind of, that also plays in effect.

[00:30:53] And so for us, it works, right?

[00:30:55] Because if we have a lot of clients that are 100% remote, we can be pretty close to 100% remote.

[00:31:00] With the exception of some of the laptops, right?

[00:31:03] That we're procuring and we need to ship out to them.

[00:31:06] But if you're an MSP in a dental vertical or medical vertical, and you've got medical offices that you support, and they're all regional to your location, I mean, it's going to be kind of difficult, right?

[00:31:20] For you to be 100% remote.

[00:31:22] So it just depends on, it depends on the MSP, I think.

[00:31:27] And it depends on the clients that they're supporting, the vertical that they're working in, their approach.

[00:31:32] Do they run on site, you know, for issues that can be fixed remotely or potentially could be fixed remotely?

[00:31:39] Do they have clients with, you know, remote hands that can, you know, be on site to help and assist or not?

[00:31:46] So I do think it depends on a lot of those factors.

[00:31:48] But, you know, as a whole, I do think MSPs really need to have some type of at least a hybrid approach for remote work to have, you know, and attract the right talent.

[00:31:59] And what else have you learned that you feel like is critical to culture?

[00:32:06] And I guess more specifically, your culture and your hybrid culture?

[00:32:11] Yeah, so I think making sure that you have core values that the team understands, that you continue to reiterate to the team, and that the team can use to leverage to maybe complement each other and continue to enforce those core values.

[00:32:28] So here at Cinevate, you know, our core values are extreme ownership, you know, being committed to the customer, process driven, which definitely ties right into your earlier comment about, you know, are you all really focused on just building processes?

[00:32:42] Yes, it's one of our core values.

[00:32:45] Being resourceful, and of course, being a team player.

[00:32:48] But, you know, we're remote.

[00:32:49] So it's a lot of times hard to, you know, have those discussions, just like you're just walking in the office, and you hear somebody talk about something, you can talk to them.

[00:32:58] We use Slack.

[00:32:59] I mean, there's Slack and Teams.

[00:33:00] It's all the same stuff, right?

[00:33:02] But we tend to adopt and reinforce those core values within our communications channels.

[00:33:10] So, like, if somebody's working on something and they do a good job, we try to reward that as sort of a plug-in and tool within Slack.

[00:33:18] So that's a really good and easy way for the whole team to say, hey, so-and-so thought that this tech did a great job, and here's why.

[00:33:26] And that just – it really helps to build a culture because now next time you're talking to them about something, it just – it connects.

[00:33:32] So being able to make sure that you're, you know, adopting and really reiterating your core values constantly to the team, I think those are pretty important things.

[00:33:44] Yeah, I love that.

[00:33:48] Tell me about Feedback Fridays.

[00:33:51] Yeah, so that's directly related to core values, right?

[00:33:55] So this is what we do on Feedback Friday.

[00:33:56] So we have this tool within Slack that really just pings a team on Friday and says, hey, can you share an experience that you had this week where somebody demonstrated one of our core values?

[00:34:10] And so as a new team member coming and joining the team here, they see that right away, and it's just a game changer, right?

[00:34:19] Because they're in an environment where they feel that, you know, they can thrive, they have opportunities, and we're doing a good job.

[00:34:27] That's pretty important, right?

[00:34:28] You need to be doing a good job for your clients.

[00:34:31] We're not just here.

[00:34:32] You know, we're not in this business just to be an MSP, just to make money.

[00:34:36] We're here to serve as clients, and we want to make sure that our customers are seeing, you know, the benefits of working with us versus working with another MSP.

[00:34:45] And so that's part of this, right, is the whole team collectively being able to see what happens when you do this or what happens when this is done right or what happens when you implement this service or this automation into place.

[00:34:59] How can the client benefit from that?

[00:35:01] And we try to demonstrate a lot of that during Feedback Friday.

[00:35:04] A couple others I want to make sure that I ask you.

[00:35:07] So if you could do one thing over in this whole journey, what would that be and why?

[00:35:17] All right.

[00:35:18] So this is actually an easy one for me, really easy one.

[00:35:21] If I could kind of start over from the beginning, do everything different, it would be a couple things.

[00:35:29] One of them would be, well, we talked a little bit earlier about standardization, how important standardization is, you know, for an MSP.

[00:35:37] And then, you know, are you compliant with your own standardization goals?

[00:35:41] I can sit here and tell you, Damien, we use all Cisco Meraki.

[00:35:45] We use all Sentinel One.

[00:35:46] We use Cisco Umbrella.

[00:35:47] But if I'm not actually implementing that on every single client, what good is it, right?

[00:35:54] So going back to the beginning, if I could really spend more time standardization, you know, standardizing, excuse me, going back, if I could spend as much time as I could, making sure that we were leveraging the same technologies out of the gate, spending less time, you know, hopping between tools and sticking with the same vendors across the board, that's really what I would change.

[00:36:18] Because I think it would really help us grow a little bit faster.

[00:36:20] I mean, over the last five years or so, we've definitely, that's, we've set our stack, you know, between the last five and six, five and seven years, and we haven't changed anything.

[00:36:29] But at the beginning, you tend to listen to, okay, this client has this product.

[00:36:36] Okay.

[00:36:36] And now they're in a, they're in a renewal, they have a license for it and it's good for a year.

[00:36:40] Okay.

[00:36:40] Well, we can use that product for a little bit.

[00:36:42] Then we can switch to our product.

[00:36:43] Like now you've got different AVs that you're managing and different backups and you've got a Kronos backup and Dean backup and Datto backup.

[00:36:50] So it's a pretty easy one for me.

[00:36:52] I would just really stick with everything and there really wouldn't be much leeway.

[00:36:57] It's kind of a non-negotiable, right?

[00:36:59] When you sign on with us, you're going to get this backup tool.

[00:37:02] You're going to get this cybersecurity stack.

[00:37:04] This is just how we do things.

[00:37:06] And that's just how it's going to have to be.

[00:37:08] And the client ends up reaping benefits of that for sure, right?

[00:37:12] Because again, the whole team knows it and there's no variability there.

[00:37:17] I think you said a lot right there because out of all the clients I work with, all the ones that are growing the fastest and the largest, 100% standardized.

[00:37:30] And the ones that seem to be growing the fastest, it's not 99.

[00:37:35] It's truly 100.

[00:37:37] And you know what I mean?

[00:37:37] There's others.

[00:37:38] Say we 100% and they're 90 or 80.

[00:37:43] And then there's the ones that are just, you know, I don't care what you just bought as a license and this and this.

[00:37:47] We're going to put in our tooling.

[00:37:51] Yeah.

[00:37:54] Was there a switch to flip?

[00:37:55] What drove that?

[00:37:56] Because I know as an MSP, sometimes you go, well, I can quantify that it costs X dollars to change the tool maybe because I have to buy a new license or pay this per month or buy a new firewall or whatever it is.

[00:38:10] So maybe it's going to cost me $3,000.

[00:38:12] But, you know, maybe I don't actually count all the labor costs, you know, up front and ongoing especially.

[00:38:20] So I'm curious, where was the epiphany here?

[00:38:23] Where was the straw that broke the camel's back for you?

[00:38:27] Yeah.

[00:38:28] So I think, you know, standardization comes with really optimizing these tool sets, right?

[00:38:32] So when you standardize, you can optimize the tools and you can make sure that you're using all of these tools to their fullest capability.

[00:38:40] So a good example of that for us would be, you know, started the company in 2011 and 2012, 2013.

[00:38:45] I mentioned we started doing some hosting services.

[00:38:48] So at the time it was like hosted exchange, right?

[00:38:51] And so it was, okay, hosted exchanges, $14 a seat.

[00:38:55] And hosted IMAP email is a lower cost option.

[00:38:58] That's, you know, $6 a seat or whatever.

[00:39:00] And so right now you've already got two very different products.

[00:39:05] You've got an IMAP product.

[00:39:06] You've got a hosted exchange product and then Microsoft 365 comes around.

[00:39:10] Now you have a Microsoft 365 product and just email.

[00:39:14] We haven't even gotten to any other aspects of management for an MSP.

[00:39:17] Just email.

[00:39:18] We've got three different things that we've got to manage.

[00:39:20] And so that really was, I guess, the epiphany there, right?

[00:39:23] Is, okay, we're going to use 365.

[00:39:26] We're going to make the switch to Microsoft 365 for our clients many, many years ago.

[00:39:31] And of course, as time has progressed, we've been able to leverage, you know, tools that

[00:39:36] we can distribute across all of our client base.

[00:39:39] And so things like conditional access on 365, making sure that you have the same conditional

[00:39:45] access policies across the board, enforcing MFA.

[00:39:48] I can't tell you how many times, you know, we've signed on a new client and we've gotten

[00:39:52] the credentials from a losing MSP or losing IT service provider.

[00:39:56] And there was no MFA turn on, on the account.

[00:39:59] And you're like, oh no, this is, this is not good.

[00:40:02] But, and it's, it's just standardization is the answer because they might have turned

[00:40:07] it on, on some accounts, but not turned on all accounts.

[00:40:10] So it's just being able to say, okay, here's the policy that we're going to use.

[00:40:14] Here's what we're going to run with.

[00:40:16] And we're going to push it to every client period.

[00:40:19] I wanted to switch gears and talk about, uh, what's a, what would you say is a common

[00:40:24] myth about what you need to do as an MSP or about running an MSP that you think really is,

[00:40:30] needs to be debunked.

[00:40:32] You must do it this way, or it must happen this way here.

[00:40:35] So common myth for an MSP.

[00:40:37] So, you know, I think a lot of times this is a question that customers will ask, right?

[00:40:42] And it's like, okay, where are you, where are you located?

[00:40:44] What is your drive time to our office?

[00:40:46] Okay.

[00:40:47] Are you, can you get here within 30 minutes?

[00:40:49] Can you get within 45 minutes?

[00:40:50] And the reality of the situation is like in today's day and age, we can fix almost everything

[00:40:56] remotely and we can fix it with best practice alignment.

[00:41:00] So like, of course there are going to be some things that we can't fix remotely.

[00:41:03] We can't replace a firewall remotely.

[00:41:05] We can't replace a switch remotely, but what we can do is, you know, set up high availability.

[00:41:10] So you have redundant firewalls and redundant internet connectivity.

[00:41:13] So, I mean, there are natural objectives that MSPs face, like just geographically, right?

[00:41:21] Companies want to work with local MSPs, but I do think that there's a pretty big potential

[00:41:27] there for us to a little bit, you know, work a little bit outside the box.

[00:41:30] We've been able to do it.

[00:41:32] We have a client in California and we don't have a presence in California.

[00:41:36] Of course, we've been able to leverage, you know, local resources to get there.

[00:41:40] But I do think that that's an opportunity, right?

[00:41:43] For a lot of MSPs to think about for sure.

[00:41:45] I love that.

[00:41:46] I love that.

[00:41:47] Yeah.

[00:41:48] It's getting out of your comfort zone.

[00:41:50] I don't always have to be 30 minutes down the road.

[00:41:53] Exactly.

[00:41:55] What are you, so the world's changing, the industry's changing, the way things work, everything's

[00:42:00] changing, right?

[00:42:01] So what are you most looking forward to?

[00:42:04] Yeah.

[00:42:04] So I think the big thing for us really over the last several years and looking ahead in

[00:42:08] the next couple of years really boils down to digital transformation across our clients.

[00:42:14] And I mentioned to you earlier, we've got a lot of clients we're working with.

[00:42:19] We have many companies we're working with, but only a handful of them have physical servers.

[00:42:24] So when I say digital transformation, I'm not just talking about, you know, as an MSP coming

[00:42:30] in and saying, okay, you've got a couple of servers here in the office in a closet and I'm

[00:42:35] going to set you up in Azure or AWS, it's like thinking outside the box a little bit

[00:42:40] and saying, okay, well, if you have an accounting system that you're hosting on the server that's

[00:42:46] in your closet, maybe there's a better solution.

[00:42:49] Maybe there is an ERP system that can replace the accounting system and can make your business

[00:42:55] that much more efficient.

[00:42:56] So that's the biggest thing for us.

[00:42:59] That's what excites me the most is really digital transformation across the customer base, because

[00:43:04] I know that we can help a lot of our clients and we have helped a lot of our clients really

[00:43:09] get to where they need to be by adopting the right systems.

[00:43:12] And instead of just sticking with the same old stuff that's there and moving it to the

[00:43:17] cloud, really just rethinking that approach and just back to basics.

[00:43:21] Okay.

[00:43:22] Can we just start from the beginning and figure out what makes the most sense for you?

[00:43:25] You talked about digital transformation.

[00:43:27] We spent a long time talking about how you're, to me, best in class from an automation perspective.

[00:43:34] What do you see the role of AI playing here?

[00:43:37] And what do you think your role will be in that as a company?

[00:43:43] For sure.

[00:43:43] For sure.

[00:43:44] So I think, you know, over the next several years, we'll definitely see a shift in the

[00:43:50] industry with AI, right?

[00:43:52] So I think certain AI language models can be leveraged here to build a system around,

[00:44:00] you know, level one and level two tickets to help empower service delivery.

[00:44:04] So, you know, the person who first touches that ticket, the way I envision this is at

[00:44:10] some point, and some companies are already doing this, we're starting to do it a little

[00:44:14] bit in the early stages here.

[00:44:15] But being able to provide the first response on that ticket with some information about

[00:44:22] the history of the client, I think is a really big component.

[00:44:26] So just that's sort of, I guess, the low hanging fruit, how I see it when it comes to AI and

[00:44:31] how we can leverage it in our industry.

[00:44:32] Of course, there's the whole security side of things, you know, AI being leveraged there

[00:44:37] from a service delivery perspective for most MSPs.

[00:44:40] I think that's going to have the biggest value there is being able to leverage AI when it

[00:44:45] comes to just what you have on the agenda for tickets that are coming in.

[00:44:50] We spend so much time working help desk tickets as an MSP.

[00:44:53] And like I said, okay, great.

[00:44:54] We can close 42% of those tickets, but what about the remainder?

[00:44:57] So we want to be able to have information to share with the technician, with the engineer,

[00:45:04] with the dispatcher, whoever's looking at that ticket right away, so that they can be

[00:45:08] able to see some information about, you know, past experiences.

[00:45:10] We have databases as MSPs, we have hundreds and thousands of tickets in our systems.

[00:45:16] And we can look back at those tickets, and we can look at our documentation systems, and

[00:45:20] we can look at reports.

[00:45:21] But being able to have a language model, you know, that processes and looks at this information

[00:45:26] as a whole and might suggest some simple solutions to the problem would be pretty valuable.

[00:45:32] I see you have quite a few books behind you, some interesting ones.

[00:45:37] What book or books have made the biggest difference in your life?

[00:45:42] Yeah, so I would say the most recent one, well, I get traction behind me, right?

[00:45:47] So that's pretty important.

[00:45:48] And I think that's probably a foundational read there.

[00:45:52] Adopting the EOS framework has been pretty helpful for us.

[00:45:55] You know, I talked a little bit about it, core value alignment, you know, right person,

[00:45:59] right seat.

[00:46:00] But there is one book here that I have sitting on my desk that I just finished reading.

[00:46:07] Pumpkin Plant for MSPs.

[00:46:09] Yeah.

[00:46:10] I mean, you say, you know, like, what's a good book?

[00:46:14] Well, I mean, this is just totally tailored to our business.

[00:46:17] So it's a great read.

[00:46:20] Would definitely recommend it.

[00:46:22] Sean Walsh and Dave Kava put together a great book here for MSPs.

[00:46:28] And I would definitely check it out, 100%.

[00:46:31] If there's an MSP listening, that's the number one read, I would say, for sure.

[00:46:37] Totally pick it up.

[00:46:38] And just so happens, I recently interviewed both of those gentlemen about the Pumpkin Plan.

[00:46:43] So I couldn't agree more.

[00:46:45] I was looking, I was like, I may have it within reach.

[00:46:49] So those books have made a biggest difference.

[00:46:52] I guess not surprisingly, both of them have a lot of process, a lot of, you know, the way

[00:47:01] you structure things seems to be, I don't want to, I don't want to put things on you, but

[00:47:05] it seems to be kind of one of your superpowers.

[00:47:07] Um, so, uh, from there, I'm kind of curious, Sean, where do you see you and Cinevate going?

[00:47:15] Um, and what's important over the next few years?

[00:47:20] Yeah, for sure.

[00:47:21] So like as an example there, um, in the Pumpkin Plan for MSPs, we talk a lot about standardization.

[00:47:27] And so that, that's really a pretty, pretty big element here is being able to say, here's

[00:47:32] what we're going to do.

[00:47:33] Here's why we're going to do it.

[00:47:34] And we're going to stick to this framework and that's how we're going to scale.

[00:47:37] And so you talked about, you know, a lot of the MSPs that you talked to, the ones that

[00:47:41] are growing really fast, they're not 90%, they're not 80%, they're not 99%, they're 100%

[00:47:46] standardized.

[00:47:47] And so what we're talking about, what I've experienced, what you've experienced, what Sean and Dave have

[00:47:53] talked about in this book, you know, what we all should be looking at as an MSP.

[00:47:57] Really is how can we all scale and make sure that we're, we're standardized across the

[00:48:02] board.

[00:48:03] And so for the future, for us, that that's really the future of Cinevate here is being

[00:48:07] able to continue to scale, um, leverage automation, but more importantly, have that standard offering

[00:48:13] that, that we're sticking to, you know, as time progresses, because it might not be a

[00:48:18] fit for everybody.

[00:48:19] Right.

[00:48:19] And, you know, that's kind of the approach here is that what we're offering, it might be

[00:48:24] a great fit for one company.

[00:48:25] It might not be a great fit for the next.

[00:48:27] But there might be another MSP who has an offering better tailored to that customer.

[00:48:31] But for us, scaling is going to be standardization, continuing to standardize as we scale.

[00:48:38] And yeah, that's really what the future looks like for us.

[00:48:41] Like I mentioned, um, we're definitely going to be, you know, bringing on new clients as

[00:48:46] an MSP.

[00:48:47] Um, it's a lot of work, right?

[00:48:48] So you're going to work on service delivery.

[00:48:51] You're going to maintain service delivery, customer satisfaction, you know, growing the

[00:48:56] team.

[00:48:57] Um, we've talked about automation.

[00:48:59] There's a lot of stuff to do here, right?

[00:49:00] As an MSP, there's, there's a lot that goes into this.

[00:49:03] Um, so sales is a, is a pretty big, important item here, right?

[00:49:07] We need to bring in new clients.

[00:49:09] And so for us, we are looking to, like I mentioned earlier, you know, looking to grow through

[00:49:14] acquisition and we're looking to work with some other MSPs that, you know, might be in

[00:49:20] a position where they want to join forces.

[00:49:23] I love that.

[00:49:24] And just for anybody who's listening, um, most MSPs I've talked to share a similar vision

[00:49:30] that you just said, Sean, some of them are looking to acquire, some of them are looking

[00:49:34] to be acquired.

[00:49:35] Others are looking to kind of join forces in, uh, create a super MSP or whatever for lack

[00:49:40] of better forces, right?

[00:49:41] And every individual want, some folks want to, you know, they're at retirement age and

[00:49:45] they're ready to walk away.

[00:49:46] And others are like, no, I want to team up and I want to do something that we couldn't

[00:49:50] do alone.

[00:49:51] And I want to spend another five or 10 years and be a meaningful role here.

[00:49:55] So, um, if you were listening to this, uh, you know, just reach out, I'd be happy to

[00:50:00] put you in touch with Sean or anybody else that's, you know, it seems like MNA is, is a really

[00:50:04] hot topic nowadays.

[00:50:06] Uh, so if there's any way I can, can I connect you, Sean, or anybody listening to, um, to

[00:50:11] the folks that are doing that, uh, please don't hesitate to let me know.

[00:50:17] Thanks for that.

[00:50:17] Appreciate that.

[00:50:18] Well, Sean, I wish I could talk to you all day, but I need to be a good steward of your

[00:50:21] time.

[00:50:22] Thank you so much for being on MSP Mindset.

[00:50:26] Yeah.

[00:50:26] Thanks so much, Sam.

[00:50:27] I appreciate you having me on today.

[00:50:29] Absolutely.

[00:50:29] Absolutely.