Building a Strong Team: Mastering Leadership Challenges

[00:00:00] You know, if you can wave the wand and get like the perfect capability set with someone who's like deeply convicted about your mission and has all the right values, that one decision can save you like a huge amount of expense and annoyance and labor and effort down the road.

[00:00:17] And so if you're going to over invest in one decision, I think it's who you bring on the team.

[00:00:26] Hey guys, Damien Stevens, host of MSP Mindset.

[00:00:29] I've had the amazing opportunity to speak with Dave Klein today about how can you become a better leader?

[00:00:37] We got into the nitty gritty from how do you lead to how do you hire to the mindset?

[00:00:42] The secret one that's holding me back is probably holding you back.

[00:00:47] Why would you want to listen to Dave?

[00:00:49] He has led at Fortune 500, Big Four Consulting and the world's largest hedge fund.

[00:00:56] He's run two to 200 person teams, including running Moody's and almost a 400 million dollar business.

[00:01:05] So if you want to know a guy that has failed his way through all these things and distilled down the leadership secrets for us to learn, then dive in and let me know your thoughts.

[00:01:15] What do you see as one of the most common challenges or mistakes that we're making as leaders?

[00:01:22] Well, I'm trying to go to like what is most universal that I see repeating at different levels of leadership.

[00:01:29] I think one of them is I'll have a slide very early in our program and just has five words on it.

[00:01:36] It just says that's OK, I'll do it.

[00:01:39] And I describe these as the five most dangerous words any leader can utter.

[00:01:45] And the reason I break them down sort of word by word, I'm like, well, that's OK.

[00:01:48] Well, actually, anytime we say that it's not OK.

[00:01:51] If they came up short of the expectation or they underperformed.

[00:01:54] And so the problem with the first two words is like you're not even being honest.

[00:01:59] You're not giving them the accurate signal about just how well it is going or not going, whether it was on the mark or off the mark.

[00:02:07] And so at a minimum, you're eroding trust.

[00:02:10] At a maximum, it's like disingenuous and confusing.

[00:02:13] Then the next word is all.

[00:02:15] And so again, you're trying to lead.

[00:02:17] You're trying to create a system that can achieve more because we've brought people together than any of these individuals could have done on their own.

[00:02:24] Once you say all, you're taking it all back.

[00:02:27] Right. You're bringing it back inside of the constraint.

[00:02:30] That is, how many hours are you willing to work?

[00:02:33] And then do it again if we're leading, we are empowering people.

[00:02:38] We are teaching people.

[00:02:39] We are accelerating the compounding of what we can do because everyone is getting more capable, more competent, covering more area.

[00:02:48] When it just goes to do it, you're back down in execution.

[00:02:51] You know, like an execution doesn't compound.

[00:02:53] It's not getting any better versus teaching, developing, sharing.

[00:02:57] That's how we have the, you know, the exponential curve sort of start to climb.

[00:03:03] So every time we utter those words, we're sort of taking it all back and we're sort of restarting the clock.

[00:03:09] And so I would say like that's probably the most universal problem I see because I see frontline managers doing that.

[00:03:15] But I see CEOs doing the same thing.

[00:03:18] Right.

[00:03:18] And probably the most dangerous spot to do it is when it is your superpower.

[00:03:25] Right.

[00:03:25] If you became CEO through the sales track and all of a sudden your head of sales starts to wobble, you're like, oh, that's OK.

[00:03:33] I'll just do it.

[00:03:34] Or maybe you came up the tech track and so therefore you're like the, you know, you used to be the CTO and now you're running the company.

[00:03:40] You're like, you just drift into that.

[00:03:41] You're like, oh, that's OK.

[00:03:42] I'll do it.

[00:03:42] I'll tell you what the architecture should be.

[00:03:44] I'll solve that problem.

[00:03:44] Yeah, I like those blinky lights.

[00:03:46] Why not jump right back in?

[00:03:47] Right.

[00:03:48] Yeah.

[00:03:49] Yeah.

[00:03:50] Yeah, it can relate to that.

[00:03:53] So if I'm, you know, just put myself in this, right, if I'm establishing the first set of leaders and I'm at least I think I'm aware enough

[00:04:03] to realize like now my job is not the direct reports as much as is the leaders.

[00:04:09] And so and, you know, so talking to me, talk to any entrepreneur listening to this, how do I make sure I do the opposite of what you just said?

[00:04:20] As I'm establishing the first, second, third, you know, I feel like there's a different set of challenges when I have a whole leadership team.

[00:04:27] But as I'm establishing the leadership team and building that out, how do I avoid the that's OK, I'll do it.

[00:04:35] Yeah, there's a lot in that the way you impact.

[00:04:38] Yeah.

[00:04:39] How do I get started with that?

[00:04:41] Well, I think the starting point has to be like, do we have a shared?

[00:04:47] I don't get too precious about which words you want to use vision, mission purpose.

[00:04:52] But do we have do we have agreement on what excellent looks like?

[00:04:55] Like, what are we trying to build?

[00:04:57] Where are we trying to go?

[00:04:59] And I say like, is that shared?

[00:05:01] Because a lot of times, you know, you're the you're the original founder, you're the CEO and you're like, allow me to just declare what this is.

[00:05:09] And I think that if you want people to really step up and assume leadership roles,

[00:05:16] maybe they all get there.

[00:05:17] But I think part of your job is to get them to put their hands all over it, too, to get them to become

[00:05:24] you know, in the best form, to become co-authors of that picture.

[00:05:29] And the reason that becomes so important to me is because then

[00:05:33] they never get to fall back on the excuse of like, well, that was your vision, not mine, or that was your why not mine.

[00:05:38] It's like, no, we created this. We built this together.

[00:05:40] OK, so we set this point in the distance.

[00:05:43] And the reason that point becomes so important is then when I pull back and say I need leaders of different domains,

[00:05:49] you know, and then I need them to sort of develop their teams, their managers or their direct reports, etc.

[00:05:56] That becomes how you evaluate all those local decisions.

[00:05:59] You know, you're sort of each one of them can go into their respective area and say, OK, well, where am I?

[00:06:05] OK, I have that vision way in the future that we all share.

[00:06:08] What are the biggest obstacles I have to take down to go from where I am to where I want to be?

[00:06:13] And that allows them to lead without turning back to the person.

[00:06:19] If they're the only like if you're the leader and you haven't done that first part, then you have to become the answer to everything.

[00:06:24] So now you're basically whether you whether you meant to or not, you have structurally built into the system,

[00:06:31] everybody coming to your door, knocking on it and saying, what do I do?

[00:06:36] Versus because we have a clear destination, we have competent leaders.

[00:06:41] They can go and say, I can make I can make most of these judgments myself.

[00:06:45] I can apply my understanding, my expertise, which hopefully is higher than yours because they're specialists in their respective areas

[00:06:53] and make it so that one plus one equals three.

[00:06:57] So I think that's where I would start.

[00:06:59] Is that the is it the ultimate mission long term?

[00:07:04] You know, not be hag, whatever words you want to put on it.

[00:07:07] Is that clarity at the five year, the one year, the, you know, using US terms, you know, the quarterly rocks like

[00:07:17] is the answer yes to all of those things?

[00:07:24] This is like me betraying the baseball card that I have.

[00:07:29] I don't I don't I don't do well in absolute.

[00:07:33] So I don't know exactly who would be the answer.

[00:07:35] I would say probably something aspirational to whether that's the be hag or the vision or whatever else, but just some

[00:07:44] like if I just use our business right.

[00:07:46] My my business, the totality of my business is my wife and I right now.

[00:07:49] So there's not like a giant team to lead.

[00:07:52] We occasionally try to lead each other.

[00:07:53] We mostly lead ourselves.

[00:07:56] You know, and it took us a while to say, well, what is our what is our aspiration?

[00:08:00] You know, what is that thing out there?

[00:08:02] And we settled on like helping a million leaders level up.

[00:08:06] Now, that's not very precise.

[00:08:08] I don't know if that's over the next year or the next 20 years.

[00:08:12] But I know that we've been blessed to work at companies that had great leadership.

[00:08:17] Like they've invested millions of dollars into leadership development.

[00:08:20] We both happen to have good individual leader experiences for us that helped our career.

[00:08:26] And yet there's a stat where it says 60 percent of all managers fail.

[00:08:31] And I'm like, well, how that we know we can do more together than a part.

[00:08:35] And yet it's worse than a coin flip to say yes to becoming a manager at any level.

[00:08:39] That seems like that seems fixable.

[00:08:43] And so that's sort of what set us out to do that.

[00:08:45] And so I don't know.

[00:08:47] Maybe it'll be 10 million liters.

[00:08:48] Maybe it'll be half a million liters.

[00:08:50] What is leveling up really mean?

[00:08:51] But we know we just want to help people get better and skip the mistakes we made.

[00:08:55] And then I think that you do need something more tangible in a shorter horizon.

[00:08:58] Right.

[00:08:58] To sort of, I think this is when you get closer to like having a number or having

[00:09:03] a scoreboard, just to say, you know, not because you have to be beholden to it,

[00:09:08] not because you have to do ridiculous things to achieve it, but just how do you

[00:09:11] know if you're tracking well?

[00:09:12] Like, how do you know if you are taking a material step in that direction?

[00:09:17] And I just think it depends a little bit on the shape of your business.

[00:09:20] You know, you're going to be able to do a lot of work.

[00:09:22] And I just think it depends a little bit on the shape of your business and a

[00:09:24] little bit on what you're like in running it.

[00:09:26] You know, maybe that is quarterly.

[00:09:29] Maybe that is annually.

[00:09:30] You know, like for us, we sort of set a couple high level, like, hey, this,

[00:09:36] you know, in year one, we just wanted to we honestly had no objective.

[00:09:40] We just like wanted to get started.

[00:09:41] It was really meant to be complimentary to the business we bought.

[00:09:46] And by the end of the year, it outrun the business we bought.

[00:09:49] So in year two, we said, well, could it fully replace us having worked full time?

[00:09:53] And we achieved that.

[00:09:54] And so now in year three, we're like, well, could we double it?

[00:09:57] Um, and that was sort of the headline.

[00:09:59] And then we started to refine, but how started to matter to us, right?

[00:10:05] Like would one way to double is just work twice as much.

[00:10:08] Like that wasn't really winning in our mind.

[00:10:10] Um, and so we started to say like, well, what's the shape of that?

[00:10:14] But I think without some sort of more tangible interim milestone, I could keep

[00:10:19] chasing that million dollar aspiration, um, in ways that don't really achieve

[00:10:25] what I want to achieve.

[00:10:27] And then we do do rocks on a quarterly basis.

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[00:11:35] Okay.

[00:11:35] All right.

[00:11:35] Good.

[00:11:36] Yeah.

[00:11:37] No, I think that helped me tie it together because using your example,

[00:11:39] right?

[00:11:39] If you're going to help a million leaders level up and you're at whatever

[00:11:45] number it is today, 10, a thousand, 10,000, whatever, then there's still

[00:11:48] a long way to go, which isn't bad.

[00:11:51] It just, I know that I can relate to that.

[00:11:53] You know, we want to save a million people from ransomware.

[00:11:57] And, but if we're at, you know,

[00:11:59] I should take you like a week.

[00:12:01] So much ransomware these days.

[00:12:04] That's right.

[00:12:05] That's right.

[00:12:05] That there is a lot of opportunity.

[00:12:07] And, but when you're making the decisions, when you're trying to go

[00:12:11] from 10,000 to 50,000 or a hundred thousand or 200,000, let alone a

[00:12:16] million, you need something in the middle.

[00:12:18] You need some like, you know, this quarter did I, did I achieve?

[00:12:23] Did I get the rock done this year?

[00:12:25] I hit the goal.

[00:12:26] Like it's, I think it's good to understand the aspirational, but

[00:12:30] how loosely in your opinion do I tie that back?

[00:12:33] Is it just, is it, you know, the old leadership style of, you know,

[00:12:38] the number was X and you, you know, you, you didn't hit X.

[00:12:42] So that's, you know, that's horrible.

[00:12:45] Is it, you know, the, the, you know, you hit 99% of X, like how

[00:12:52] I need to think about getting rid of you, like, you know, the old

[00:12:54] school really bad leadership.

[00:12:55] I'm sure it's not that, but how do you, how do you establish these goals

[00:13:01] that hopefully are aspirational and usually are some form of stretch,

[00:13:05] just kind of like you were talking about earlier?

[00:13:07] I would say that the thing that I believe very firmly is like, there

[00:13:12] is probably no skill more powerful than being clear about your expectations.

[00:13:16] Now in your example, there's a lot of different ways to give

[00:13:21] expectations that are clear.

[00:13:23] And so let me just sort of paint two sides of the spectrum that

[00:13:26] I've lived both of, and they come with different pros and cons.

[00:13:30] Um, so the first real 10 years of my career was Moody's and the way that

[00:13:34] we would set goals was closer.

[00:13:36] You probably wouldn't get fired if you got to 99% of a goal.

[00:13:39] Um, but it was closer to what you're saying.

[00:13:41] Like goals were, goals were set with the expectation of being met.

[00:13:45] And so I would say the goals were a bit more modest, um, and they

[00:13:49] were very thoughtful from a capacity perspective, and that was more doable

[00:13:53] because the business was more predictable and it's more suited the

[00:13:58] culture that we were running.

[00:14:00] And, but what was good is that that was clear.

[00:14:04] Like it was clear that yes, you have three goals for your team and the

[00:14:06] expectations, you'll hit all three goals or maybe slightly beat them, et cetera.

[00:14:11] Then flip over to my 10 years of Bridgewater, which we ran very differently.

[00:14:15] It was run like a portfolio.

[00:14:16] Um, it was at the highest level on down to each individual.

[00:14:20] The goal was to get people to hit 60 to 75% of their target.

[00:14:26] Right?

[00:14:26] So that means, you know, a third is failure.

[00:14:30] Right?

[00:14:31] So you would be meeting my expectation if you only achieve

[00:14:35] 75% of what you set out to do.

[00:14:38] That's like a very different mindset for people.

[00:14:40] You're like, cause a, they're not used to failing B, you

[00:14:43] know, so how do you judge that?

[00:14:45] I would say like for us, our rocks are closer to the second where we

[00:14:50] try to set them pretty, like pretty high targets and then say, okay,

[00:14:55] our goal one, we had 15 rocks when we started.

[00:14:58] So we got rid of 10 of them.

[00:15:00] So, okay, we've now picked the most important rocks and within those, if

[00:15:04] we were to either crush five and miss one like massively or to sort of get

[00:15:11] bees on all of them, that's about what we would expect.

[00:15:14] Um, and, but again, that works because we're being clear with

[00:15:18] ourselves about what we're truly shooting for and what we're not.

[00:15:23] Where I think people get really hung up is you might set aspirations like

[00:15:28] I'm doing in the second version, which are really high targets, probably

[00:15:31] not achievable, but then holding people accountable to more like the

[00:15:35] first way I described it, which was he got to hit them all, um, or

[00:15:39] being schizophrenic about it, which like whatever suits you, like,

[00:15:42] oh, you actually got to 80% on all the things.

[00:15:44] I really meant it was a hundred.

[00:15:46] Um, and I'm like, there's nothing that erodes trust more with people

[00:15:50] than sort of rewriting the contract mid flight.

[00:15:53] Like maybe you wrote a bad contract, but then like, so be it.

[00:15:56] You'll get to rewrite it next quarter.

[00:15:58] Um, but I think, I think the clarity is what the, what is key.

[00:16:04] I want to dig deeper on the clarity.

[00:16:06] Uh, as I'm building out my team, I'm hiring the expert.

[00:16:11] I'm not the expert.

[00:16:13] So let's say in an, in an, uh, MSP that I'm now hiring the first

[00:16:20] you know, uh, service leader, um, and operational technical service,

[00:16:26] you know, running help desk support tickets, that kind of thing.

[00:16:30] Right.

[00:16:30] I could say the KPI is, you know, tickets closed or ticket response

[00:16:35] time or NPS or, you know, whatever those things are.

[00:16:39] Um, but, you know, I wonder if I don't lean on the expert, you

[00:16:44] know, if I've, you know, if you've done this three, three

[00:16:46] different companies before you've joined us, um, how do I, how

[00:16:50] do we co-create a goal that's actually more meaningful or metrics?

[00:16:54] Because obviously you can make numbers or metrics for KPIs, you

[00:16:59] know, do anything even to the harm of like, if you want tickets

[00:17:02] closed quickly, you don't have to do a good job.

[00:17:04] Um, right.

[00:17:05] You can just close them really quickly.

[00:17:07] Um, so you gotta be careful what you're asking for.

[00:17:10] So how do we co-create the right metrics?

[00:17:13] If I'm hiring the expert and I'm at least self aware enough to ask

[00:17:16] the question that I might set, you know, number of tickets closed

[00:17:21] or speed of ticket resolution.

[00:17:24] And that could, that could actually do the opposite of what I'm looking

[00:17:27] to do, which is provide amazing service and it'd be great for our

[00:17:30] team or great for our customers when maybe that really incents

[00:17:33] the team to do the opposite.

[00:17:35] Yeah.

[00:17:36] Um, I think you end up having a few levers you can pull and

[00:17:40] maybe you're pulling one or maybe you're doing a combination of them.

[00:17:43] Um, I think it's pretty dangerous to oversee people where you literally

[00:17:49] have no threshold level of understanding.

[00:17:51] And so that doesn't mean you need to go become the expert in that

[00:17:55] managed service, technical detail in the same way that you've now

[00:17:58] hired that expertise, but it's probably not very good if you

[00:18:02] have literally no idea what's going on.

[00:18:04] And so like, what are the quick ways you come up the curve?

[00:18:06] Right?

[00:18:06] Is that external research?

[00:18:07] Is that talking to three other experts?

[00:18:09] Sometimes people use their interview process to sort of build

[00:18:12] their own threshold understanding.

[00:18:14] This is where you can bring in, you know, outside expertise.

[00:18:16] Like there's lots of different ways we go from not knowing anything

[00:18:19] to knowing at least enough to be able to like navigate the

[00:18:22] foreign country, so to speak.

[00:18:24] Um, so I think that's one.

[00:18:26] So I'd say like if people aren't doing that, I would figure out

[00:18:28] like, how do you get to that threshold?

[00:18:30] The second thing is, um, and I'd say this to people often, we

[00:18:36] underestimate sort of the power of the analogies that we've lived

[00:18:41] for the purposes of asking better questions about what we haven't.

[00:18:45] Um, so an example of that would be, um, I was trying to run a training

[00:18:49] program back at Bridgewater and I had a person who was going to run that.

[00:18:53] And they were like, ah, I just, I don't even know where to start.

[00:18:56] I don't know how to frame up this factory we're creating, et cetera.

[00:18:59] And I'm like, oh, that's so interesting.

[00:19:01] Um, didn't you graduate from college like a year ago?

[00:19:05] And they're like, well, yeah.

[00:19:06] And I'm like, so you have no idea what it would take to take a body

[00:19:10] of people and give, you know, like have a clear curriculum with

[00:19:15] credible instructors and good certification to educate them in a

[00:19:19] particular way that then on the output, we would say, like, we believe

[00:19:21] this person is capable of doing these things.

[00:19:23] You'd have no idea what that might look like.

[00:19:25] And they're like, oh yeah, I guess I do.

[00:19:28] And it's like, it wasn't me condescending.

[00:19:30] It's like, actually, if you step back, we run into almost

[00:19:33] all these things all the time.

[00:19:34] So I imagine if you're an MS, you know, you're a managed service

[00:19:37] provider and you've probably have been doing some of this, maybe

[00:19:42] it's a different domain.

[00:19:44] And so you're like, okay, but just abstract one level and say like,

[00:19:47] well, what are all the key parts of that domain abstracted one level?

[00:19:50] And then can you ask the questions over here in the same way?

[00:19:53] Right.

[00:19:53] And so you were already doing it in your setup of the question.

[00:19:57] You were like, oh, you know, like in this world, it would, you know,

[00:20:00] with ticket times would be really important, but I wouldn't want people

[00:20:02] to game ticket times at the expense of quality.

[00:20:06] How are you thinking about setting up the tension?

[00:20:07] So those two things, is that relevant in this world or not?

[00:20:11] And if so, how are you setting it up?

[00:20:12] Like you were able to probe and ask those questions, even though you

[00:20:15] don't know the literals of like the ticketing and they might say

[00:20:18] like, oh, in this world, the ticketing duration is very different for this

[00:20:21] reason, and you're now building your threshold understanding even more.

[00:20:25] Um, and still using the expertise you already have one level abstracted

[00:20:29] to like ask better questions and probe that the third thing to think about

[00:20:34] is what I try would ask.

[00:20:35] It's like a little hard in the theoretical, but like, what's

[00:20:37] the incentive structure?

[00:20:39] Like, is that person strictly sal, you know, like salary, are they bonus

[00:20:43] in some way, do they have equity in the company?

[00:20:46] Um, sometimes you can allow for more latitude in the specific, like

[00:20:49] KPIs depending on what the higher order incentives are, right?

[00:20:53] If that person only gets paid, if that business grows or only gets paid,

[00:20:57] if like, um, in equity over the long term, you can sort of rely on

[00:21:02] that to probably, um, offset any sort of near term mistakes in the KPIs.

[00:21:08] And so that might be another thing to like stare at them like up.

[00:21:11] That makes a ton of sense.

[00:21:12] What do you think the role in, and do you have a recommendation

[00:21:16] for being, uh, you know, above salary?

[00:21:20] In other words, you recommend bonus, do you recommend equity or stock

[00:21:24] op, you know, some firm form of equity or, um, or, or just, you

[00:21:29] know, tying a metric, whether that's commission or bonus or, or ownership

[00:21:35] in some form, um, above salary?

[00:21:37] Or do you think salary works just as well at a leadership level?

[00:21:43] Again, I, you're gonna get so annoyed by the end of the podcast.

[00:21:45] I'm like, well, it kind of depends.

[00:21:47] Um, but, but I think it does.

[00:21:49] Like, I think at the leadership level, you do want some amount

[00:21:52] of performance tied to their outcomes.

[00:21:54] So whether you choose to do that through bonus or equity, et cetera,

[00:21:58] a little, that depends on like the structure of your business and whether

[00:22:00] you want to give up ownership or not.

[00:22:02] Um, a little bit depends on the types of people you're going to attract.

[00:22:05] Some would be usually ownership, right?

[00:22:08] Is people willing to defer near-term gains for a bigger long-term gain?

[00:22:13] Um, again, I don't know if that is the archetype of who

[00:22:15] you are, are attracting or not.

[00:22:18] Um, so it's a little bit like, I need to know the types of like

[00:22:21] players I want in my business and what I'm most comfortable as the owner doing.

[00:22:25] Um, I think it's hard.

[00:22:27] I think it's hard to maintain full ownership and have no

[00:22:30] performance based incentives and end up with leaders who are

[00:22:33] going to make rational decisions.

[00:22:36] Um, like what is it?

[00:22:37] What's the Charlie Munger quote?

[00:22:38] So show me the incentives and I'll tell you, I'll show you the outcomes.

[00:22:41] Um, I think there's some truth to that.

[00:22:44] And so I, I would be looking for like, how can I get them to feel more,

[00:22:48] more ownership or at least only gain the upside when they've

[00:22:53] contributed to creating it.

[00:22:56] Right.

[00:22:57] Right.

[00:22:57] Yeah.

[00:22:58] And so even if you don't want to do ownership, right?

[00:23:00] Just using your suggestion that you can have performance, uh, whether

[00:23:04] that's off a chair or a bonus or profit sharing lots of different ways to do it.

[00:23:08] Right.

[00:23:09] Yeah.

[00:23:10] Yeah.

[00:23:10] And I think in a lot of the businesses tie it to profit, not revenue, right?

[00:23:15] You pay attention because otherwise you'll sell a ton of low

[00:23:17] margin and, and pay, pay a ton.

[00:23:21] So like, like the Charlie Munger quote, show me the, show me those

[00:23:24] and I'll, you know, and I'll understand those outcomes.

[00:23:27] Uh, show me those incentives.

[00:23:29] Um, tell me how this, I was really curious about this.

[00:23:33] Tell me about your insights of how this leadership ties into parenting

[00:23:37] and how teaching those and what you've learned being a parent.

[00:23:42] Well, we were joking before we hit record, right?

[00:23:44] That, um, any leader who says they have it all figured out is lying,

[00:23:48] lying to you and lying to themselves.

[00:23:50] Is that word that probably is only doubly true for parents.

[00:23:54] Um, I would say one surprise before you answer that Dave, sorry.

[00:23:59] Um, tell me about your kids.

[00:24:00] How old, how old are they?

[00:24:01] Um, we have, we have two daughters, 12 and 14 about to be 13 and 15.

[00:24:06] So we're, we're about to double dip the teenagers.

[00:24:09] Um, you know, I was going to say, if I rewind the clock, um, I don't,

[00:24:16] I don't think I fully appreciated how much having kids would make me a

[00:24:19] better manager or leader and how being a manager, leader, um, actually

[00:24:26] helped me be a better parent.

[00:24:28] Like they are, um, they are remarkably intertwined, I think.

[00:24:34] So like, uh, an example, um, when your kids sort of experienced the

[00:24:40] world for the first time, you know, like everything's miraculous

[00:24:44] and wonderful and they're so curious.

[00:24:47] And you, I think most of us as parents are like so patient with that.

[00:24:51] We're like, of course, like you're seeing this for the first time.

[00:24:53] Of course that would be foreign to you or scary to you or like something

[00:24:58] you needed to touch and break.

[00:25:00] Um, of course.

[00:25:03] And then we turn around to these professionals, these adults around us

[00:25:07] and we're shocked that they would do the same thing, but to some degree,

[00:25:12] if you step back, you're like, well, of course, like this

[00:25:13] organization is new to them or this project is new to them or this challenge

[00:25:17] is new to them or the strategy.

[00:25:18] Like, and they're just people too.

[00:25:20] So you're like, of course.

[00:25:21] Um, but somehow I don't think I was nearly as, I was probably far more

[00:25:27] arrogant about it before I had kids.

[00:25:29] I'm like, why are you not getting this?

[00:25:31] Why are you not figuring this out?

[00:25:32] Like, I'm pretty sure if anyone, um, had experienced me as a manager

[00:25:35] before kids and then after they'd be like, what happened to you?

[00:25:38] And I was like, oh, I had kids and like saw the, I have a new

[00:25:41] appreciation for what it's like to be a human in the world.

[00:25:43] Um, and so I see that.

[00:25:45] And at the same time, um, you know, one of the gifts, especially my time

[00:25:50] at Bridgewater was sort of seeing, we were always thinking about things

[00:25:53] as being another one of those, like what is the pattern?

[00:25:56] What is the repeating thing?

[00:25:57] Like we, um, I don't know if anybody else had this experience.

[00:26:02] Um, we all have these things that we believe make us these snowflakes.

[00:26:06] And so one of them for me is like, I love live music.

[00:26:08] I probably my apex year in New York city, I went to something

[00:26:11] like 65 live shows in a calendar year.

[00:26:14] I just loved it.

[00:26:15] You know, I have the most eclectic, interesting, unique musical tastes.

[00:26:20] And I remember when Pandora first came out and you sort of had

[00:26:23] to like give it a few songs and it would eventually in my mind over,

[00:26:27] you know, a couple of years figure out who I was.

[00:26:30] And I like gave it three songs.

[00:26:33] And the next 10 songs were like bands I had gone to see live last year.

[00:26:37] And I was like, what?

[00:26:39] I am such a unique, like I'm so unique.

[00:26:42] How could this thing possibly know?

[00:26:43] And it was like this big like moment of now, man, you're not that unique.

[00:26:47] Like there are only so many flavors and only so many differences.

[00:26:52] Um, and I saw you can sort of see that in management, right?

[00:26:55] Like we, people are like, well, does your program apply to small

[00:26:59] business or large corporations?

[00:27:00] Does it apply to new managers or seasoned managers and every

[00:27:04] marketing bone in our bodies, like we have to like niche down

[00:27:08] and be super precise, but it's all the same stuff.

[00:27:12] You know, like you have, like everybody is struggling with an underperforming employee.

[00:27:17] Everybody wishes their manager gave them more clarity in terms of

[00:27:20] what that excellent looks like.

[00:27:23] Everybody wishes they could go out into the market and cherry pick

[00:27:27] the perfect star who would hit the ground running on day one.

[00:27:30] You know, like we all have these same things.

[00:27:31] And so that also helped me bring an appreciation back into my house.

[00:27:36] Right?

[00:27:36] Like sort of seeing those abstractions and those patterns, then to turn around

[00:27:41] and be like, oh, like my kids are going to go through the same thing that

[00:27:45] like my, my first born is going to exhibit characteristics different

[00:27:48] than my second born.

[00:27:50] And while it's not a fate, it's probably going to be predictable.

[00:27:55] And then starting to think about them at in different ways and

[00:27:58] like, how do we motivate them?

[00:27:59] And how do we help them arrive at the next sort of individual

[00:28:04] challenge they want to take on?

[00:28:06] It's not different than me doing that with a professional who wants a promotion.

[00:28:09] Um, so anyways, I think that they are so intertwined that if I, I don't know,

[00:28:15] if I could gift a new manager also being a parent, um, I think it would

[00:28:19] accelerate them up the curve much faster.

[00:28:21] Yeah.

[00:28:22] Yeah.

[00:28:22] I've definitely seen like, especially when the kids are young, cause

[00:28:26] it's just like, well, there's the nature versus nurture type debate.

[00:28:29] And sometimes they're just like, how did they do that?

[00:28:31] How did they figure that out?

[00:28:32] Like they're just, they just came with that programmed and they

[00:28:35] just, they decided to start doing that or where did they even pick up that?

[00:28:39] Cause sometimes you see, you know, I see myself in them or my wife in them

[00:28:43] and others, I just see things that are very different, very, you

[00:28:48] know, like them, their personality.

[00:28:50] Uh, and I've tried to, tried to let people be that same way, right?

[00:28:54] Like, wow, look, you have just because you have, I think sometimes

[00:28:58] they go, oh, because you went to the same school or you, uh, that

[00:29:01] this other person did or worked at the same company, you're going to.

[00:29:04] Yeah.

[00:29:04] Act the same way, which is probably akin to saying, you know, your brother or

[00:29:09] sister at this from the same parent, you're the same person there.

[00:29:12] Right.

[00:29:13] Right.

[00:29:13] That's not not, it's funny.

[00:29:15] We, we, I think I do that when you have similar, you know, training,

[00:29:20] schooling career experience, but you know, don't do that when you're a

[00:29:24] brother or a sister in a family, you know, I don't expect you to be the

[00:29:27] same.

[00:29:28] Uh, so why do we expect that, you know, from a career development path?

[00:29:32] Well, and we have this amazing ability to flex.

[00:29:34] Like we, um, most programs will do use some flavor of this.

[00:29:40] We use principles you, which is a, it was a personality test that Ray

[00:29:44] created with Adam Grant after we had gotten over reliant on MBTI, which

[00:29:49] is like dubious in its, um, science.

[00:29:51] So they're like, Oh, can we create MBTI, but actually be science backed?

[00:29:54] And so we use it in our program.

[00:29:56] Um, and to your point, it's, it's like such an interesting set of

[00:29:59] conversations because you can compare two people.

[00:30:02] Right.

[00:30:02] And so maybe I'm deeply extroverted and someone else is deeply introverted.

[00:30:06] And so you might say like, well, Ooh, in some circumstances that's going

[00:30:08] to create a lot of conflict, right?

[00:30:10] In other circumstances, that might be great to have a team where I've got

[00:30:14] things, you know, people at both preferences on the end of the spectrum.

[00:30:17] But the other thing that like is an important part of the conversation

[00:30:21] is, um, we'll say that traits are not fates, right?

[00:30:24] These are preferences just because you prefer to be introverted.

[00:30:29] Doesn't mean you have no ability whatsoever to flex when necessary,

[00:30:33] but it also means in moments of stress and pressure and chaos, you will likely

[00:30:37] revert back to what is most natural.

[00:30:39] Um, and it's like a sort of a long winded way to sort of reinforce

[00:30:43] what you're saying, which is like, well, at some level, there are some

[00:30:46] parts of nature, which we should acknowledge because in those moments

[00:30:51] we are probably going to retreat to them, but people have this really

[00:30:54] finicky way of being flexible and agile and developing and growing.

[00:30:59] And if you do those tests over time, you'll also see people shift.

[00:31:02] Right?

[00:31:02] And so we can grow, we can develop, we can get better.

[00:31:05] Um, and that again, a lot of what I think is like one of the, in my

[00:31:12] mind, one of the conversions when someone goes from being an okay

[00:31:14] leader to like an excellent one is when they stop seeing so many oars

[00:31:18] and start seeing more ants, right?

[00:31:21] And like we are, you know what I mean?

[00:31:24] Like we are not, give me an example of that.

[00:31:26] What's that?

[00:31:28] Give me an example.

[00:31:28] What does that mean?

[00:31:29] Um, well, even in that example, right?

[00:31:31] Like we might say, um, you know, like people are fixed by, you

[00:31:38] know, people have certain abilities and capabilities or they can change.

[00:31:44] But I'm like, no, it's and people do have certain preferences

[00:31:48] and fixed capabilities and they can change.

[00:31:51] And so how do I deal with the end?

[00:31:54] You know, like people want it's like simpler.

[00:31:56] If I can just say it's this way or it's that way.

[00:31:58] Cause if, if people were fixed, then I never have to do any

[00:32:01] development or coaching.

[00:32:02] All I have to do is find people who fit and if they don't fit, I fire

[00:32:05] them and find someone else who fits.

[00:32:07] Or if they are, if everyone is malleable and we can change them.

[00:32:12] Well, I can just hire whoever I want and put all my effort into

[00:32:15] like a, you know, development program and teaching leaders.

[00:32:18] And I can convert anybody into being what I need them to be.

[00:32:20] And the reality is like, those are neat and tidy, but not real.

[00:32:24] The real part is when you say like, well, both are true as an and.

[00:32:29] And so how do I build my system to deal with that reality?

[00:32:32] Like another, just to give you like another version, there's this

[00:32:35] idea of, um, which I've walked around with this idea of being

[00:32:39] open-minded and assertive.

[00:32:41] When people first hear that they think about like, Oh, well,

[00:32:43] depending on the situation, it's a spectrum that I should shift on.

[00:32:47] So if I'm in a, if I'm in a situation where I don't know much of anything,

[00:32:51] I should be very open-minded because that's like humble and the

[00:32:53] right thing to do.

[00:32:53] I don't know anything.

[00:32:54] And if I'm in a situation where I'm the expert, I should be very

[00:32:56] assertive because like, I'm the expert and people should listen to me.

[00:33:00] In reality, the most impactful people actually maintain both.

[00:33:04] It's an and even in situations they don't know anything, they are

[00:33:08] forcing themselves to independently try to figure it out.

[00:33:12] Like what is, you know, sort of back to our example earlier, where

[00:33:14] you don't know the technical details.

[00:33:16] How are you going to craft and build a picture that is independent so that

[00:33:19] when this expert is telling you something, you can be like, yeah,

[00:33:22] that makes sense or that doesn't make sense.

[00:33:24] I should ask more questions.

[00:33:26] And then the open-mindedness is okay.

[00:33:29] No matter how expert I am and I've built that picture, the laws of just

[00:33:35] volume and data would tell you there's no way you have even like one

[00:33:39] 10th of one millionth of a percent of the information needed to create

[00:33:42] the perfect picture.

[00:33:43] So you should be deeply humble and open that there's something that

[00:33:46] could change that picture.

[00:33:48] Right?

[00:33:48] And so it's not a spectrum where you're picking on one side or the other.

[00:33:51] It is a side that you are solving a simultaneous equation.

[00:33:55] Something akin to strong convictions, loosely held.

[00:33:59] Yeah.

[00:33:59] That kind of, they get spread around.

[00:34:02] No, I love that.

[00:34:02] So, but you brought up something I wanted to ask about how, because

[00:34:07] I definitely believe the end.

[00:34:09] You know, I have certain abilities and weaknesses and, but I am able

[00:34:15] and capable of changing.

[00:34:17] So whether it's about me, whether it's about others on the team that

[00:34:21] I'm leading, how do I determine how malleable, how much, you know,

[00:34:27] how far, right?

[00:34:28] It's the, it goes back to like, you can make the right decision or

[00:34:31] you can make the decision right type of thinking.

[00:34:34] And so how do I balance that or think about this?

[00:34:38] I've clearly hired the wrong person and I can't get them to there

[00:34:43] versus, you know, maybe they're not everything I needed day one, but

[00:34:48] they are malleable enough.

[00:34:49] They're willing to learn.

[00:34:49] They're, you know, it is an and.

[00:34:52] So how, since it's not as clear as, you know, binary one or zero,

[00:34:57] how do I, how do I kind of assess that as I'm assessing people?

[00:35:01] And I don't mean an assessment, but how do I understand that?

[00:35:04] Well, let's use a, it's probably easiest for people.

[00:35:08] If we just say like there's someone who's underperforming, let's just,

[00:35:12] we can come back to it if it's one on outperforming, but let's just pick

[00:35:15] the one that usually causes people the most pain is this

[00:35:17] person is underperforming.

[00:35:19] And so we'll often get asked the question.

[00:35:21] Okay.

[00:35:21] So how do I deal with that?

[00:35:23] Um, I usually ask people sort of walk through four questions.

[00:35:28] Um, I would say the first two are your problem and the

[00:35:30] second two are their problem.

[00:35:33] But because ultimately they're performing on your team, the whole

[00:35:35] thing is your problem.

[00:35:36] But anyways, um, I start with, well, what am I setting these people up for

[00:35:41] success, right?

[00:35:42] Do they, do they have clear expectations?

[00:35:45] Like, do they know what it like, what is expected of them?

[00:35:48] Did they know that walking in the door has it changed, et cetera?

[00:35:51] But like people can't win a game.

[00:35:53] They don't know what the scoreboard is or what the rules are.

[00:35:55] So like, do they know that?

[00:35:58] And the second one is going to be, do they have like the necessary support?

[00:36:02] And I would say like, maybe use the word reasonable.

[00:36:05] Um, reasonable meaning if I took someone off the street and drop them into this

[00:36:09] job and gave them the same support, could they do it because you can get to

[00:36:13] people who are like, they never have enough and it's just like an endless,

[00:36:16] like, I need more training.

[00:36:17] I need more guidance.

[00:36:17] I need more access.

[00:36:19] And that's just not the way to optimize the team.

[00:36:21] So you do need to have some, again, independent perspective of what's

[00:36:25] reasonable, but I think those two will mostly fall to the manager, to

[00:36:29] the leader of the team to say, yeah, this is how, this is where we're going.

[00:36:33] This is how I'm keeping score.

[00:36:34] This is how we're going to do the work or how I need you to do the

[00:36:37] work or how I need you to run your team or grow our business.

[00:36:40] And I think this is, you know, this is the training you need, the

[00:36:43] access you need, the support you need, the resources, the tools, whatever else.

[00:36:48] And the reason I start with those two is because if you don't get buy-in

[00:36:52] that they have what they need, when you get to the second two, which

[00:36:55] are about them and are much harder, these things become excuses.

[00:36:59] And so I'm like, just get the excuses off the board.

[00:37:01] Like I've given you all these things.

[00:37:03] Do you agree?

[00:37:03] This is what you need to succeed.

[00:37:05] You know, like this is the training you need.

[00:37:07] This is the access, et cetera.

[00:37:08] The second two becomes skill and will.

[00:37:10] And I would start them in opposite order, which to your point,

[00:37:16] do they want to do it?

[00:37:17] Like when in terms of, and the wanting can be two different versions.

[00:37:20] Wanting is like, do you actually want to do the job?

[00:37:22] Sometimes we think a job or a project is one thing and we get into it and

[00:37:26] we're like, oh, it's kind of like me running the data team.

[00:37:29] I'm like, I'm going to get operational experience.

[00:37:31] And I'm like, oh, I'm not good at this and I don't like it.

[00:37:33] Um, and so like, I didn't want to do it.

[00:37:36] If I was being honest with myself, the problem was probably skill, but

[00:37:40] the skill was so bad that will was really the issue is like, I didn't

[00:37:43] want to do it nor did I want to do the work to close the gap, which

[00:37:48] I think becomes the second one within will, but let's say.

[00:37:53] They have clear expectations.

[00:37:54] They have the resources, support and training, and they want to do it.

[00:37:57] And, or they are willing to like make the investment to close the gap.

[00:38:00] You're now just left to like, well, can they do it?

[00:38:02] Like, do they have the capabilities?

[00:38:04] And this is that like messy gray area for managers where you

[00:38:06] have to sort of apply the judgment.

[00:38:09] Um, for me, I tend to put two lenses on it that

[00:38:12] will be clarifying for people.

[00:38:13] So one is, well, what's reasonable.

[00:38:16] If I looked through 20 years of different levels of roles and whatever,

[00:38:20] I would say, usually you will know, like someone should be able to get

[00:38:23] to the expectation within six to nine months.

[00:38:27] Now, if you're a smaller team, if you're an A player only organization,

[00:38:31] that might be a shorter timeframe that you can actually tolerate

[00:38:34] because really you're judging them.

[00:38:36] Not can they ever get to that expectation, but can they get to

[00:38:39] the expectation at a time that produces a positive ROI for the business?

[00:38:42] Like, can they get there in business time?

[00:38:44] You're not, you're not judging them as a person and an inability to change.

[00:38:48] You're basically saying is this, can this player play the position

[00:38:51] before we lose the season?

[00:38:52] Before we run out of, you know, before we go out of

[00:38:54] business at a small company.

[00:38:57] The second lens I'll put on it for folks is if you've ever had a star

[00:39:01] work for you, it doesn't take six to nine months, like, you know,

[00:39:05] usually I would say within a month or two, if you have a star and again,

[00:39:09] especially for smaller organizations, um, you probably need more stars than not.

[00:39:15] Now stars aren't universal.

[00:39:17] They're there.

[00:39:17] They can be stars in your context.

[00:39:19] Like someone might be terrible at IBM or Accenture and be brilliant

[00:39:24] in a 10 person, um, MSP because they're going to like, you know, having

[00:39:30] a smaller shop, having a different book of business, working with

[00:39:33] small business owners, like there's all kinds of reasons why someone

[00:39:35] might've failed there and be excellent for you.

[00:39:38] Um, but that's in that, but I'm sort of like, when people

[00:39:42] usually ask me like, do I have an under performer and they've

[00:39:44] done the first three, like you've given them what they need.

[00:39:47] They have clear expectations.

[00:39:48] They want it and they're still not performing.

[00:39:51] And I'm like, well, how long has it been?

[00:39:54] And they say three years.

[00:39:56] And I'm like, so, you know, your answer, you're just asking

[00:39:59] me to confirm it for you.

[00:40:01] Right.

[00:40:02] Um, and that's, I would say that's like 90% of the time is like,

[00:40:07] I'm like, we're not in the six to nine months and we're certainly

[00:40:09] not in the one to two months that has a star.

[00:40:11] Um, and it's really hard.

[00:40:13] The thing that if I could gift anybody, everything, anything when

[00:40:17] it comes to underperformers is the pain you feel making that decision.

[00:40:22] Well, it will never be higher than the point of the decision.

[00:40:26] But with 20 years of data, most of those people are in

[00:40:30] just as much pain as you are.

[00:40:31] No one likes to be constantly losing on like, I hated being in that job

[00:40:35] where I was just like every day, I'm like, I'm not good at this.

[00:40:37] I'm losing the scoreboard.

[00:40:39] Never is in my favor.

[00:40:41] Um, I'm letting my team down to like, I was in pain and the company was in pain.

[00:40:45] And then all of a sudden you put me in a spot where I can thrive and put

[00:40:47] some, the person who came in behind you was awesome at that job.

[00:40:50] Um, everyone wins.

[00:40:52] And what's funny is I've watched it happen over and over and over.

[00:40:55] I've had people who worked in my team or work in like adjacent teams.

[00:40:59] It, it like they got to the point where they couldn't tie their shoes.

[00:41:02] They left and I can think of at least three who started billion dollar

[00:41:06] companies and you're like, okay, so they're not incompetent people.

[00:41:09] They just were in a wrong spot.

[00:41:12] And so that data, I don't know when you're a new manager, you feel

[00:41:15] like you're ruining someone's life.

[00:41:16] You might actually be opening up the chapter to like the

[00:41:18] life they should be living.

[00:41:20] Um, and sometimes people need a nudge and you need a team

[00:41:24] that can achieve your goals.

[00:41:25] And so if that gives you a little more confidence, I promise it

[00:41:27] works out for most people.

[00:41:30] Yeah.

[00:41:31] Let them bloom in a different garden.

[00:41:33] Right?

[00:41:33] Sometimes I found if I'm particularly aware, maybe there's a different

[00:41:37] role, like you described your experience within the same company.

[00:41:40] And sometimes I said a different company.

[00:41:42] Um, I would challenge you to think about yourself because I look back

[00:41:48] and no matter how painful letting somebody go was, I looked back across

[00:41:51] and I never, in all the times I've had to let somebody go, which

[00:41:56] has been painful every single time.

[00:41:57] I'm not sure it's gotten any easier.

[00:41:59] No.

[00:41:59] Um, not once have I looked back and regretted letting somebody go.

[00:42:05] So with a little self-reflection, all I'm admitting about myself is that

[00:42:09] means upon self-reflection, I think that I have, I am not the kind

[00:42:14] that jumps, you know, just randomly does something and just jumps to

[00:42:17] conclusions and does it too fast, which means I am probably a good

[00:42:21] bit of the time doing it too slow.

[00:42:23] Uh, so, you know, now I start to understand when I'm thinking

[00:42:26] that when I'm already feeling those things, I can really examine

[00:42:29] a couple data points and I don't need to wait three years.

[00:42:32] You know, if I'm, I'm three months or six months in, I've given them

[00:42:34] long enough, depending on what it is, then I know.

[00:42:38] And, uh, if I violate that where I do feel like I fired too fast,

[00:42:41] then I can re-examine some things, but you know, just from personal

[00:42:44] perspective, because it's so painful.

[00:42:46] I just keep that shoe and keep that rock in my shoe and

[00:42:49] I just keep walking around.

[00:42:50] We, um, one of the CEOs we worked with, we were, we were

[00:42:53] in-house running a program and, um, it was sort of a, sort of

[00:42:58] like junior to mid level sales manager, pretty big company.

[00:43:01] And the CEO had been a part of it for 40 years.

[00:43:03] Like, you know, he'd owned it.

[00:43:05] I think sold part of it to private equity, bought it back, but

[00:43:07] basically had been in the dry receipt for a huge chunk of the time.

[00:43:11] And it's a recruiting company.

[00:43:12] And so the, um, you know, he came in to do this Q and A and someone

[00:43:16] was asking like, well, do we really live the values?

[00:43:18] You know, what's like, what's your example?

[00:43:19] What's your evidence?

[00:43:21] And he said, look, like I based on the ownership structure, if

[00:43:25] you look at our number one sales rep who does, you know, dozens

[00:43:28] of recruiting placements a year.

[00:43:31] Uh, I profit personally on the order of about a million dollars.

[00:43:36] So like that one person, they make a ton of money, but like

[00:43:39] I make a million bucks.

[00:43:41] He's like four times in the 40 years.

[00:43:43] So once a decade, I've had to fire that person for being, you

[00:43:48] know, contrary to our culture, not living our values, doing

[00:43:51] something that like I thought was detrimental to the company.

[00:43:54] It's like nothing like I promise you, if you can picture me

[00:43:58] walking out into the street and like creating a pile of a million

[00:44:03] dollars and lighting it on fire.

[00:44:04] Like that's how convicted I am about this decision.

[00:44:07] Like that's really because it's not, he's like, it's not

[00:44:09] like someone just jumps into that spot and produces a million

[00:44:12] dollars, like, yes, we have an organization.

[00:44:14] We pick up some of the slack, but like for that first year,

[00:44:17] it's sort of like what I did.

[00:44:18] And, um, I don't know that image just like sticks with me so much,

[00:44:22] which is like it is, um, you know, we'll often say like the

[00:44:26] difference with your values, the difference between like, is

[00:44:30] it a slogan or is it truly your values is whether you're

[00:44:33] willing to make the sacrifice.

[00:44:36] Yeah.

[00:44:37] Yeah.

[00:44:37] It's much easier to keep saying yes to things and tolerate

[00:44:40] than it is to, to, to make the decision to cut the person.

[00:44:44] Yeah.

[00:44:44] But the thing he also added, which ties to your point, um,

[00:44:48] all four times, he's like literally all four times.

[00:44:51] I thought I was being rash.

[00:44:53] I was like, I like was reacting to something.

[00:44:55] I was being too quick all four times.

[00:44:58] Multiple people came up to me and said, what took you so long?

[00:45:02] Yeah, I can totally relate to that.

[00:45:06] And that's the thing.

[00:45:06] Like I'm worried about it because I think I'm acting to, you know,

[00:45:11] to rashly or what's the impact on the rest of the team or company.

[00:45:15] And, um, and then when somebody comes up and says, man, I'm glad

[00:45:19] you did that or what took so long.

[00:45:21] You're just like, what's the impact of not making the decision?

[00:45:24] Right.

[00:45:24] And that's, that's what gets me.

[00:45:26] It's like at every juncture, you're making a decision.

[00:45:30] The decision might be to make no decision, but you're making a decision

[00:45:34] and you're, you're also basically people look at your feet more than

[00:45:39] what you say.

[00:45:41] And so if you're, if your actions say that I'm going to tolerate,

[00:45:44] you know, somebody that's a abusive or just some bad fit, then that's,

[00:45:51] that that's going to be toxic quickly.

[00:45:53] A hundred percent.

[00:45:54] We will tell our, a lot of years we work with like every Monday,

[00:45:58] you rehire your whole team and every Monday they reapply it.

[00:46:03] Like they take the job with you again.

[00:46:04] Like you're always being tested and they're always being tested.

[00:46:08] Um, and the idea of like, I inherited this person and I

[00:46:12] inherited this project.

[00:46:14] Um, it becomes yours.

[00:46:16] Like you, you basically sign off the day that you say, yes, I'll take it.

[00:46:20] Uh, and all those, all, all those mistakes, all those problems, like

[00:46:25] you, you don't get a very long runway to say it's not my fault.

[00:46:27] Like as soon as you said, yes, like it's yours.

[00:46:30] Um, now that you're in the role.

[00:46:32] Yeah, that's right.

[00:46:33] Yeah.

[00:46:34] Um, yeah, because you make the decision every day to whether to go

[00:46:36] forward differently or not.

[00:46:38] Um, you brought up hiring.

[00:46:40] How much to the coaching and education do you spend around selecting

[00:46:46] the new hires or understanding the people you have on the team?

[00:46:51] Um, directly or indirectly, I'd say it's probably close to half.

[00:46:57] Like if I think about that's a lot, it is.

[00:47:00] Um, but it's interesting with some of the feedback we get is like,

[00:47:03] we're one of the few programs that spends any time on hiring,

[00:47:06] much less that much.

[00:47:07] Um, part of my life, it sort of ties back to what we were talking about earlier,

[00:47:12] right?

[00:47:12] Where yes, people can flex and change, but we have these preferences.

[00:47:16] We have these abilities, these experiences.

[00:47:18] And so of course the closer I can get to someone who naturally fits with

[00:47:26] the abilities I need for the role with the values, the behaviors that

[00:47:31] we operate with naturally, then the less gaps I have to close in other ways.

[00:47:35] So if I can, you know, if you can wave the wand and get like the perfect

[00:47:38] capability set with someone who's like deeply convicted about your mission and

[00:47:41] has all the right values, that one decision can save you like a huge amount

[00:47:48] of expense and annoyance and labor and effort down the road.

[00:47:53] And so if you're going to over invest in one decision, I think it's

[00:47:56] who you bring on the team.

[00:47:59] And, um, what's interesting is I think people, uh, I'll write about this

[00:48:04] all the time, the difference between hiring and recruiting.

[00:48:06] And if I, and I can go back into my career and say like for the first

[00:48:09] half of my career, I just hired.

[00:48:10] And so like, I define hiring as oops, I have a job opening who's

[00:48:15] available in the world.

[00:48:16] Let me pick from the best available at, you know, versus recruiting is

[00:48:22] saying, okay, I have a, I have that picture of what excellent looks

[00:48:25] like this vision I'm driving towards.

[00:48:27] Let me anticipate who I'm going to need a year from now.

[00:48:30] Okay.

[00:48:31] Where are the seven to 10 best people who could do that job?

[00:48:35] Where are they?

[00:48:36] How do I get to know them?

[00:48:37] How do I start to build a relationship with them?

[00:48:39] How do I start to assess whether or not they'd be a great fit for the

[00:48:42] company, how do I get them interested in my team so that when that moment

[00:48:47] comes, there is no LinkedIn ad.

[00:48:49] There is no job opening.

[00:48:51] They're simply a conversation with like it's time and they can step

[00:48:55] in.

[00:48:56] Like we have a high degree of like confidence on, on both sides of the

[00:49:00] ledger and they, they weren't the best available, like they were the

[00:49:04] best fit.

[00:49:06] And when you repeat that process over and over and over, like that's

[00:49:10] recruiting and that's how you get a team of A players or a team that

[00:49:15] together works in a much higher order than a team of like whoever happened

[00:49:20] to be available the minute you ran out of capacity.

[00:49:23] I love that.

[00:49:24] I'm a big believer that there's two pipelines in every business, the sales

[00:49:28] pipeline and the talent pipeline.

[00:49:30] And nobody's paying attention to the ladder or not enough.

[00:49:34] So how do I, how do I do that?

[00:49:38] How do I maintain this rapport or build these relationships and be

[00:49:43] thinking about the folks that I want on the team and that may want to

[00:49:48] join us depending on the timing?

[00:49:51] How do you practically teach your folks to do that?

[00:49:54] I try to just keep it super simple.

[00:49:56] So, um, to your point one is I do need you to be able to look ahead a

[00:50:01] little bit, right?

[00:50:02] You're running a sales team.

[00:50:04] You're, it's not going to be perfect.

[00:50:05] You'll have some, you'll have some misses in this, but okay.

[00:50:08] Are we going to open a new territory?

[00:50:10] Do we turn over our SDRs at a high rate?

[00:50:13] Like what's just, what's the reality of my business?

[00:50:15] Like where do I think the puck's going over six to 12 months?

[00:50:19] I think I might need to open a new region and based on the last two

[00:50:22] years of attrition, we're going to need three new sales development reps.

[00:50:25] Like, okay, that's, that's a rough enough shape.

[00:50:28] And so then you're just saying, okay, I probably want to have seven to 10

[00:50:31] names I'm talking to who could be leading that new region.

[00:50:35] Do I have an opinion about what the region might look like?

[00:50:37] Do I have a guess of two regions?

[00:50:39] You know, but the more that I have a pretty decent guess and the

[00:50:42] more I can get targeted, then the next thing I'm doing is just

[00:50:45] starting with my network.

[00:50:46] Like, okay, who do I, I try to start from the ideal.

[00:50:49] Like, okay, if I could, if I could wave a wand, who's the dream candidate.

[00:50:54] Okay.

[00:50:54] Maybe that dream candidates not gettable.

[00:50:56] Does that dream candidate have three lieutenants?

[00:50:59] Does that dream candidate have a couple of peers in the

[00:51:02] industry at different companies?

[00:51:04] Do I know that dream candidate?

[00:51:06] Can they introduce me to any of those people?

[00:51:08] Um, one of the things just to start to sort of build the

[00:51:10] snowflake, like build the network.

[00:51:12] Um, is you, you talk to that one who's the dream and they're

[00:51:15] ungettable and like, well, who should we be talking to?

[00:51:17] Like based on what you've heard, what we're building, what we're doing.

[00:51:20] Like who else do you know?

[00:51:22] Because those people tend to know people like themselves from industry

[00:51:24] groups, from communities they're in just from past experiences

[00:51:29] from their own organization.

[00:51:30] And if each person produces two interesting people for you to talk

[00:51:34] to and you just keep asking that question, it's very quickly, you

[00:51:37] can very quickly get to a couple dozen interesting people.

[00:51:41] So we went from, I had no idea to a target.

[00:51:45] I went from a target to, you know, 25 interesting people.

[00:51:47] And then it's just what's the one thing I can do a quarter with each

[00:51:51] of them to stay in touch?

[00:51:52] Can I send them an article?

[00:51:53] Can I ask them a question?

[00:51:55] Can I make an introduction to somebody else in the industry?

[00:51:57] Can I share a white paper?

[00:51:59] Can I invite them to an event?

[00:52:01] Lots of things to do.

[00:52:02] Um, I read, um, who, uh, the who method, which is by the, um,

[00:52:08] one of the founders of GH smart.

[00:52:11] And he talked about, I'm going to, um, I think it was Aon, the

[00:52:14] consulting company, uh, the CEO.

[00:52:18] Uh, I believe has a target of bringing in 40 people a year personally.

[00:52:22] Right?

[00:52:22] So it's just shy of one a week.

[00:52:25] Right.

[00:52:26] And then he says that he needs to be having 10 conversations.

[00:52:29] I think the numbers right.

[00:52:30] And he has to be having actively nurturing 10 people to get one.

[00:52:34] So he's actively nurturing 400 people at a time.

[00:52:37] And he cars out a couple hours a week where he's got the list and he's like,

[00:52:40] who have I not contacted?

[00:52:41] Who have I not talked to?

[00:52:43] And he finds way, you know, looks them up and like what's going on.

[00:52:45] Oh, they publish a thing on LinkedIn about congratulations on the launch.

[00:52:49] Congratulations on this.

[00:52:50] Hey, let me introduce you to this person over here.

[00:52:52] And he just methodically works through the list and keeps them,

[00:52:55] keeps them warm and learns about them and does that.

[00:52:57] And so that method, you don't, it doesn't have to be 400 people, but

[00:53:01] that method of just having some idea about what you're shooting for, starting

[00:53:05] to talk to people and sort of splintering out into the people they can introduce you

[00:53:10] to, and then just methodically going back and like adding value to keep

[00:53:14] the conversation going.

[00:53:16] I feel like that's super practical for anybody.

[00:53:18] It's 80 get you 80 20.

[00:53:22] Yeah, I love, I love that.

[00:53:23] And I think I love your input, Dave, but I think I, and others, I know

[00:53:28] I speak for myself, we don't have a talent pipeline ready built.

[00:53:33] So then it's entirely reactive when you, when you have a performance issue.

[00:53:37] And so I think they're very tied and the more that on the talent pipeline

[00:53:41] built, the more that I think, ah, replacing this person, it's just going

[00:53:45] to be such a long search and so many recruits and, you know, I'm really

[00:53:50] going, I'm not recruiting, I'm hiring and I'm just going to, you know, what

[00:53:54] if I spend all that effort and then I end up with still kind of mediocre,

[00:53:58] but yet I'm under the gun because I still need somebody in the role.

[00:54:01] And, you know, that's a whole other discussion, but I'm under the gun and

[00:54:05] perhaps I take a mediocre instead of an A player.

[00:54:10] And so I start to dread these things because I don't have a talent

[00:54:12] pipeline. So personally, if there's a talent pipeline, I'm,

[00:54:19] I'm still going to do everything to develop the people, but I'm not

[00:54:26] going back to mindset.

[00:54:27] I'm not as fearful.

[00:54:29] What I really think it is, at least talking about myself, is there's a

[00:54:32] fear. Dave is this key guy.

[00:54:34] Dave's leading this in my team.

[00:54:36] And if Dave walks out the door one day or Dave starts performing

[00:54:40] or whatever it is, I have this fear because I have no pipeline and

[00:54:45] I'm back to square one and I need another A player like Dave and

[00:54:49] getting another A player like Dave is not easy and not fast.

[00:54:54] And so I have noticed if you have that pipeline, even a little bit of it

[00:55:01] built, maybe not the 400, but even seven to 10 names, you just have

[00:55:06] more confidence in those decisions.

[00:55:10] And what I've noticed and I love your feedback of what you see as

[00:55:14] you coach people is that has led me using your words to go from

[00:55:18] or to and.

[00:55:19] I need this and this and this and we need you to rise to this

[00:55:23] occasion. Before I would kind of take my foot off the gas a little bit

[00:55:26] and say, well, if you can do either of those things, I really need

[00:55:30] both. But if you do either, I guess I didn't say this directly,

[00:55:34] but kind of in my head, I was like, I guess I'll keep you and

[00:55:36] I'll tolerate less mediocre performance than I need, less than

[00:55:41] I deserve. Yeah, right.

[00:55:43] Exactly. Less than I deserve.

[00:55:45] That hits the nail on the head.

[00:55:47] So how much of what you're doing is that mindset where I'm

[00:55:51] getting in the way and that's the thing that's like you're

[00:55:54] teaching the practical part.

[00:55:55] How much of this goes back to that mindset that I'm the

[00:55:58] mindset getting in the way?

[00:56:01] A lot of it is the mindset getting in the way, as it usually

[00:56:04] is. I think part of it, you mentioned fear

[00:56:10] and a close cousin is pain.

[00:56:13] And so one of the problems that's very

[00:56:17] it's like a very seducing place to get to is what you're

[00:56:20] describing.

[00:56:21] I sort of call it like what you're doing is allowing there to be

[00:56:24] like a bit of like

[00:56:27] there's like a numbing of the pain because if the person

[00:56:31] was if the person was like an unmitigated disaster,

[00:56:37] you would know what to do.

[00:56:39] That's right. You have to.

[00:56:41] It's an easy one.

[00:56:42] Right.

[00:56:42] It sucks, but it's still easy.

[00:56:44] And if they were an inarguable star, you'd also have no

[00:56:47] problem. So you're in this middle point.

[00:56:49] That's right.

[00:56:50] And partially you get into people that I think get into a

[00:56:54] vicious cycle, which are I don't have a talent pipeline, so I

[00:56:57] don't feel confident holding this person accountable.

[00:57:01] But because they're covering over some of my pain,

[00:57:06] I don't have enough conviction to go build a

[00:57:08] talent pipeline.

[00:57:10] It's not the most important thing for me to do.

[00:57:12] Right. I have other more urgent things in my business

[00:57:14] to focus on.

[00:57:16] This person is giving me B minus.

[00:57:18] It could be worse.

[00:57:19] Imagine if it was empty.

[00:57:21] And so because you don't and so almost the question is like,

[00:57:24] is it worth flipping it?

[00:57:26] Like, would you act differently?

[00:57:29] If you were in more pain, not less.

[00:57:33] Like I find this happens a lot of times we'll do something

[00:57:35] similar source less well for a business owner, but works

[00:57:40] well for leaders, which is they're overwhelmed.

[00:57:42] They're stuck. They just can't get out of this vicious

[00:57:44] cycle.

[00:57:46] And I'll ask them, like, well, what would the business if they

[00:57:48] fired you tomorrow?

[00:57:50] What would the business do?

[00:57:53] Like, give it because they're going to basically they're

[00:57:55] going to pick up your like you've been dealt this hand.

[00:57:58] You leave and they're going to pick up the hand like what's

[00:58:00] their move?

[00:58:01] Well, how are they going to solve it?

[00:58:02] And it's amazing how quickly once people take themselves out

[00:58:05] of the equation, they're like, oh, they would triage

[00:58:09] this work. They'd fire this client.

[00:58:10] They'd upgrade these two people.

[00:58:11] They would do this thing.

[00:58:13] And then the inevitable question is like, well, why

[00:58:15] don't you do all those things proactively?

[00:58:16] If that's what they're going to do when you're gone.

[00:58:21] And part of it is like they will be in more pain

[00:58:25] and will be willing to make that.

[00:58:26] And you right now are sort of holding those things

[00:58:30] together and sort of soothing and you're sort of you're

[00:58:33] sort of taking this fire and you're keeping it like just

[00:58:36] under just just shy of blowing up.

[00:58:40] And for some reason, that like that that inversion

[00:58:43] like really helps them, you know, like like, oh,

[00:58:46] well, if that's what they would do, then I should be

[00:58:48] empowered to do that.

[00:58:49] And then I can reap the benefit.

[00:58:51] And because I'm still here with my capacity, I can use

[00:58:53] that capacity to do these other important things.

[00:58:56] And so I think some of that plays the same way here

[00:58:59] where you're like, OK.

[00:59:01] I go through if I fired this person, I'd have

[00:59:03] to deal with it.

[00:59:04] I don't have a talent pipeline.

[00:59:06] Would I just go hire the best person available?

[00:59:08] Would I go hire like start recruiting, start hiring

[00:59:12] process, but in parallel start to do my talent

[00:59:15] pipeline, et cetera.

[00:59:17] OK, if those are the logical things I'm going to do

[00:59:19] without this person, then that becomes the most

[00:59:21] important thing for me to do with this person.

[00:59:25] Because what's your worst case?

[00:59:25] Like you like you said in your example, they could

[00:59:29] do half the job.

[00:59:30] So you go out into the world and get someone who

[00:59:31] can do the whole job and then they get a lieutenant

[00:59:34] who can do the half the job.

[00:59:35] And now you've got like a far more like high

[00:59:38] capacity set up or that person moves on because

[00:59:41] they feel marginalized or whatever else.

[00:59:43] But now you have someone who can do the job better

[00:59:45] and you have a talent pipeline for the other three

[00:59:47] things that are inevitably going to come down

[00:59:49] the road.

[00:59:49] I love that.

[00:59:50] And it takes me back to the I come back to

[00:59:53] those two pipelines in every business and we

[00:59:55] invest.

[00:59:56] We only get CRM and marketing automation and

[00:59:59] all this stuff, but we have sales team,

[01:00:00] whether you got SDRs, whether you got inbound,

[01:00:03] outbound, all bound.

[01:00:04] You got all this stuff where you've invested

[01:00:06] all over the place in some form of sales,

[01:00:11] no matter what business you're in.

[01:00:12] And you know that you have to continue to market.

[01:00:16] You have to continue to generate leads.

[01:00:18] You know that not all of them will close.

[01:00:20] It's a funnel kind of like a talent.

[01:00:21] And so, you know, that's needed.

[01:00:25] And then the thing is I'll ask a lot of people,

[01:00:28] do you need customers?

[01:00:29] Yes.

[01:00:30] Do you need talent?

[01:00:30] Yes.

[01:00:31] Which is more important.

[01:00:32] Oh, the team.

[01:00:34] Well, not by your actions.

[01:00:36] You're not investing in a talent pipeline and we

[01:00:38] would never run our business such that we're not

[01:00:43] actively working on getting new customers.

[01:00:45] Or even if it's a slower business or one that

[01:00:47] you can only, you know, gain for customers

[01:00:49] a year, some MSPs are more of like, oh,

[01:00:52] referral mode.

[01:00:53] But even in that case, if a big one left,

[01:00:55] that's not when you would just start for the

[01:00:58] very first time to do anything like marketing

[01:01:01] or understanding what you're going to do.

[01:01:04] So why do we run our talent pipeline this,

[01:01:06] you know, that way?

[01:01:07] Like everything's fine.

[01:01:09] And then somebody leaves or you have to let somebody go.

[01:01:12] And then you're caught flat footed, no pipeline.

[01:01:16] We would never run a sales side of a business,

[01:01:18] even a small business.

[01:01:19] So my guess is there's a meaningful difference in the two.

[01:01:24] In the sales pipeline, I can't sell to myself.

[01:01:28] So me becoming my next biggest customer,

[01:01:31] it generates no new money.

[01:01:33] That's not an actual way to run a business.

[01:01:35] But I tell myself a trick on the other side,

[01:01:37] I like deceive myself and say, well,

[01:01:39] I could just jump in for a small period of time.

[01:01:43] I could do another hour or I could get a little bit more out

[01:01:47] of the team I have, et cetera.

[01:01:49] So much truth to that, right?

[01:01:51] If I'm not a restaurateur, but if I restaurant tour

[01:01:54] and so a great example, I can't cook.

[01:01:56] So if I start a restaurant, which I'm in no danger of doing,

[01:01:59] but if I were right, I would hire an amazing chef.

[01:02:02] And if they quit, you have no rest.

[01:02:04] You would just shut down.

[01:02:05] I would call in some friends to try to fill in.

[01:02:09] And then I would just we'd reopen when we had an executive chef,

[01:02:13] because I am not capable of producing good food like an executive chef.

[01:02:18] But especially as the the, you know, let's say the tech person

[01:02:22] or other ones where you talk about where you really have talents.

[01:02:25] Man, if I don't catch myself just jumping in

[01:02:28] and filling that gap, because it's like, oh, I can do that.

[01:02:31] I'm pretty good at it. I used to do it.

[01:02:33] I in some cases enjoy it.

[01:02:36] And I jump right in and I become the chef. Yeah.

[01:02:40] Right. Like you. And that's horrible.

[01:02:42] Right. But it's so natural. Right.

[01:02:44] We and it numbs the pain and numbs like, like you said,

[01:02:48] you would deal with that chef leaving

[01:02:52] with fierce urgency.

[01:02:55] And in fact, because you know that that is like a single point of failure,

[01:02:59] you would probably have a talent pipeline

[01:03:01] and you probably have an in-house talent pipeline with

[01:03:04] I need these three sous chefs to be able to step up for two weeks

[01:03:06] while we hire the next executive chef.

[01:03:09] And I'd have 10 executive chefs that I'm friendly with.

[01:03:12] And I might have, you know, a network at the local culinary institute.

[01:03:17] Like you would have a lot of bets if your entire business

[01:03:20] was premised on one person showing up that day or not.

[01:03:24] But again, once if you could cook,

[01:03:27] you would use that could to rationalize not doing any of those things.

[01:03:32] That's right.

[01:03:34] Yeah, I think that that's a big unlock for me.

[01:03:37] I know I feel like we could do this forever.

[01:03:41] What are your top questions you should ask?

[01:03:46] If I'm in this role, how do I understand how I'm performing as a leader?

[01:03:50] My team is performing. What are the questions I should be asking?

[01:03:53] Maybe they're not those to understand where I am.

[01:03:57] If I need your help, if I need others help, I mean, the answers.

[01:04:00] I always need help, at least personally.

[01:04:02] But how do I start to understand where I am and how I can improve,

[01:04:06] how I lead and how I show up every day?

[01:04:10] I would probably ask different questions to different people.

[01:04:14] So if I think about, you know, let's just imagine

[01:04:17] your founder or CEO owner, whatever label we all like.

[01:04:23] I think one of the one things we can do that's dangerous is to ask anybody

[01:04:27] anything because people will give you an answer whether it's good or not,

[01:04:29] whether they have a point of view that's useful.

[01:04:32] Or the other extreme is that you'll ask them a very open ended question.

[01:04:38] And what you're going to get back is either a blank stare

[01:04:41] because it's just too overwhelming of a question or a lot of randomness

[01:04:44] that then you are responsible for processing.

[01:04:47] So I tend to think of it as like, OK, well, what's what's

[01:04:50] the ecosystem around me to be successful as a leader?

[01:04:53] I think if I'm asking my team, like the people who report to me,

[01:04:57] my leaders or if I'm a smaller organization, like the folks in the front line,

[01:05:01] I'm sort of going back to that image we laid out.

[01:05:04] Like, do they know where we're going?

[01:05:05] Like, do they? And you can test it.

[01:05:07] Like, hey, like, tell me what we're what does excellent look like?

[01:05:10] Share it to me in your own words.

[01:05:12] Like, tell me the story.

[01:05:13] If it's not well aligned, I know I need to clarify it.

[01:05:16] Great.

[01:05:18] Do you like, are do you know sort of the key problems in your area?

[01:05:23] You know, if they do, then great.

[01:05:26] Do you have solutions for them?

[01:05:27] If they don't, then I'm like, oh, that's interesting.

[01:05:29] I've got a leader.

[01:05:30] So how do I help them see the problems?

[01:05:33] Because all I need all my leaders to do is really see the problem,

[01:05:36] solve the problems over and over and over.

[01:05:38] And so like, what else do they need from me?

[01:05:40] Like, what what can I get out of their way?

[01:05:42] How can I support them?

[01:05:43] Like, if I could make them go twice as fast or be twice as impactful,

[01:05:47] what do they need?

[01:05:48] And I think those are questions that are sort of like fueling the system

[01:05:52] I'm trying to create.

[01:05:53] If I had a now, maybe if I had a co-founder or maybe if I had

[01:05:57] like really long term employees who trust me immensely

[01:06:01] and will speak truth to power, maybe you're also asking them

[01:06:03] about like sort of strategy and things like that.

[01:06:05] But usually I'd be looking for that from either like a coach

[01:06:08] or an external advisor or a board or people I trust who

[01:06:12] really their interest is in like me achieving my potential

[01:06:16] and have no real skin in the game.

[01:06:17] The problem with asking your team is like

[01:06:20] they depend on you for a lot.

[01:06:22] And I don't know, I think even if we believe

[01:06:26] we've created an open door policy and we've really tried

[01:06:30] to encourage them to come to us and be able to say anything to us.

[01:06:35] Ninety nine point five percent of people either are unwilling

[01:06:38] to do it in its totality or don't believe you.

[01:06:42] Like they've just been burned in other parts of life

[01:06:44] and are not going to tell you the unvarnished truth.

[01:06:46] And so I think you need people who are more independent.

[01:06:48] Those are the ones I'd be asking, like, am I shooting high enough?

[01:06:51] Do we have the right strategy?

[01:06:54] You know, call BS on the things you see me doing.

[01:06:57] And again, I think you can create a board of advisors.

[01:07:00] You can have a literal board of directors.

[01:07:01] You can have investors. You can have coaches.

[01:07:04] You can get into EO, YP.

[01:07:06] There's lots of different ways to get stimulus from people

[01:07:08] who will do that for you, who have the right incentives.

[01:07:12] So I'd be looking for that as well.

[01:07:15] Love that, Dave. All right.

[01:07:16] For everybody listening, watching those, that's your homework.

[01:07:20] Take those away. Ask those questions.

[01:07:22] Drop a comment and let me know what you come back with.

[01:07:24] I'd love to learn. I am going to do that.

[01:07:26] Dave, how can we connect with you?

[01:07:29] I know you've got hundreds of thousands of followers all over social.

[01:07:32] So whether it's I'm interested in Dave's courses or coaching

[01:07:36] or just want to just follow you because you got some really good

[01:07:39] social media and I don't say that about many people.

[01:07:41] So how do we best connect with you?

[01:07:43] Well, most of myself comes through in writing.

[01:07:46] So on social is on Twitter or LinkedIn are the two primary platforms for me.

[01:07:51] We do have a weekly newsletter called the Management Playbook.

[01:07:54] Free to subscribe. There's 60 plus playbooks out there.

[01:07:57] A bunch of templates.

[01:07:59] And then we run we run a live cohort based program

[01:08:03] three or four times a year.

[01:08:05] You can find that at MGMT Accelerator dot com.

[01:08:08] And the next one will be about to be announced.

[01:08:11] We're going to do a slightly different version of it end of June.

[01:08:14] So keep a lookout.

[01:08:16] Yeah, don't miss out on the opportunity to get connected to Dave

[01:08:20] in one form or another.

[01:08:22] Dave, this has been amazing.

[01:08:23] Thank you for being on MSP mindset.

[01:08:25] Thanks for having me. Great to be here.