Embracing Vulnerability: A Game Changer for MSP Owners

[00:00:00] because most of the time people are just not willing to share, especially with their boss,

[00:00:04] you know, their feedback, their true feedback. And you're just like, Hey, if you're like, Hey,

[00:00:07] do you have any feedback for me? They're not going to answer you because the stakes are too

[00:00:11] high. Right. And so how do you elicit that from them? Right. And so it's like, Hey,

[00:00:18] you know, if you're not giving me some feedback, there was some way that I can improve.

[00:00:22] You're not being completely honest with me. And so and then and I've got to figure out a way

[00:00:26] to elicit that feedback from them. Hey, guys, on this episode of MSP Mindset, I got the gift of

[00:00:37] speaking with Brian Homp. He is an executive coach to MSP's doing five, ten and fifteen million in

[00:00:44] revenue and more. And we got into how to build an authentic culture in your MSP might sound

[00:00:51] easy, but it turns out it's way more than being bags and beers. Anybody's ever tried to make

[00:00:57] culture, you know that it starts at the top and you know that it's not always as easy

[00:01:02] as it sounds. So first, we start with how to find your zone of genius, what that means

[00:01:07] and where you operate best. And we're going to dive into defining and building a culture

[00:01:11] that leads to true authenticity and open communication. If that sounds awesome, then

[00:01:17] you can't wait to hear what we're going to talk about.

[00:01:21] One thing we're talking about is understanding everybody's zone of genius. So tell me about

[00:01:29] that and what does that mean? Yeah, yeah, that's great. And the zone of genius is a

[00:01:36] it's a concept that's talked about in a few different places in a few different ways. Right.

[00:01:41] So one of the most impactful places I've seen it talked about is by Gay Hendrix. He's got a

[00:01:48] book called The Big Leap, which is an amazing, amazing book. But it's also been called

[00:01:54] something, you know, Dan Sullivan talks about it as called Unique Ability. And then, yeah,

[00:02:02] well, those are the two things that come to mind. But yeah, I mean, the concept is

[00:02:08] there's there's kind of four zones. You start with your zone of incompetence, which is

[00:02:15] these are things that I don't like and I'm not good at or I don't know how to do.

[00:02:19] And so they're stuff that you should never do. Right. And this could be something like

[00:02:25] fixing my car or, you know, hanging a ceiling fan or, you know, things like that, that it's

[00:02:32] like, you know, you really just shouldn't be doing them. Then you move to zone of competence.

[00:02:39] Right. So I'm like, I'm I'm I can do it and I'm I might be good at it. I'm not great at it.

[00:02:47] So so I don't really like it that much. And so it's like, yeah, I can do it. But

[00:02:54] but probably should should start to offload some of that stuff.

[00:02:58] And then the next zone is the zone of excellence, where you actually are

[00:03:05] you're you're good at it and you like it. And this is where most people get stuck

[00:03:09] because because it's like you're good at it. People say you're good at it. You like doing it.

[00:03:15] You know, so so you keep doing it. But there's another

[00:03:20] what's an example of that for you? It could be. Yeah, it could be different for

[00:03:24] different people. I think for me, it was it's probably like

[00:03:30] financial, you know, financial stuff like I'm I'm, you know, I used to be a CFO. I've got,

[00:03:35] you know, I know how to do all that stuff. You know, I love to dig into the numbers and

[00:03:40] do analysis and, you know, jump into QuickBooks and do, you know, do stuff, all of that.

[00:03:48] I like it. I'm good at it. But somebody else can do it. Right. And somebody else can

[00:03:52] probably do it better than me. And and so so then so then you have your zone of genius.

[00:03:59] Right. And and zone of genius is like that next level. It goes from I like this and I'm good at

[00:04:05] it to I love this and I'm great at it. And maybe I'm the only person in the world that

[00:04:09] can do this as well as I can do it. And usually there's one to one to three things that

[00:04:16] is for, you know, for a leader or a business owner. And and so and that's kind of the stuff

[00:04:23] when you're in your zone of genius. It's like time disappears. You're just loving what you're

[00:04:28] doing. You could do it for hours and hours and like and you're like in a trance of like,

[00:04:33] oh my gosh, this is, you know, you come out of and you're like, how where did all the time

[00:04:36] go? Because and it doesn't even feel like work a lot of times. Right. So, you know,

[00:04:41] high performers can kind of get into a place if you're really in your zone of genius. It's like,

[00:04:47] man, I don't feel like I'm working that hard. But you're you're doing it's because you're

[00:04:51] doing the stuff that's in that zone of genius. So time flies by. You're having a great time.

[00:04:57] You're doing stuff that only you could do. And and it's in, you know, it's your high

[00:05:02] absolute highest and best use for for the company. So. OK, so let's let me let me try

[00:05:08] to understand that. So and so there's something that I'm good at. I don't know what that one was

[00:05:13] called the one before zone of genius where I'm good at and I like it. Zone of excellence.

[00:05:17] Zone of excellence. OK, so there's excellence. And so you were used to be a CFO. You know

[00:05:25] a lot about MSP. So there's a great example. Right. Not that many people are both understand

[00:05:30] finances and MSP's. You're excellent. OK, I get that. How what's your zone of genius?

[00:05:36] You know, maybe there's one or two or three using your words. There's different. There's

[00:05:41] different things. Right. So there's so during. So while I was running my MSP,

[00:05:46] there it was different than it is now, which I'm you know when I'm when I'm coaching

[00:05:50] and you know in that kind of a thing. But but one that would you know that would

[00:05:55] definitely be or it would go across would be coaching. Right. So so for me, when I'm

[00:06:01] when I'm you know, when I was a leader or when I was leading my MSP, I was you know,

[00:06:12] I had a leadership team and I was much more of a coaching style leader than than anything else.

[00:06:19] And that would be where I would where I would sit with with my team is like, hey,

[00:06:26] you know what you're doing. You we've set out goals. We've set out, you know,

[00:06:32] you know your rocks, you know how to complete everything that you need to do.

[00:06:36] How can I be of support to you? How can I be of help to you? Where where are you struggling?

[00:06:41] Not only here, but at home? How do we you know, what are what's your level of satisfaction?

[00:06:48] If it's a if it's a two, how do we get it to a three or four or five in in different areas?

[00:06:55] You know, so so yeah. So I mean, I would say coaching for me is like something that's solidly

[00:07:00] in my in my zone of genius and has been for many, many years because it's something that I

[00:07:06] love to do. I love serving people. I love helping people. I love the conversation that that

[00:07:11] happens and how you can get somebody to insight from, you know, from kind of loss to like

[00:07:18] complete clarity in the matter of 45 minutes conversation. It's like so yeah, anyways,

[00:07:24] you can you can tell I'm getting a little energized talking about it. But yeah, but yeah,

[00:07:28] so so that's so that that's for me. And yeah, and that goes on. I think that goes on

[00:07:33] both sides. So as a as a as a CEO and as a and as a coach full time. So

[00:07:40] OK, so one of yours is a genius and I can tell how excited you're getting.

[00:07:44] That's a good indicator, right? How how do I determine that? Right. I'm listening.

[00:07:50] I'm an MSP or just me. How do I determine this? Because like you said, there's these things

[00:07:54] that I'm that to me the sneaky parts are the ones that I'm I'm decent at the zone

[00:07:59] of excellence, you know, that some people still ask and they want help with that. And

[00:08:03] I'm pretty good at it. But how do I figure out my zone of genius? Yeah, that's a that's

[00:08:08] a great, great one. And yeah, there's a couple of exercises that I like to use.

[00:08:15] They're not easy, but they're pretty simple. So so one involves one involves doing an energy

[00:08:23] audit. So so like, hey, let take take a week, take two weeks and write down everything you

[00:08:31] do. And and and so that so take and look at, OK, what energizes me and then what drains me?

[00:08:41] And and you separate it out into different things. Right. So people, places, habits,

[00:08:47] attitudes, activities, work tasks, all of those things and enlist everything out.

[00:08:54] So I was, you know, so man, I was working on, I don't know,

[00:08:57] A.R. the other day and it was totally draining to me. Great. Put that in, put that in work tasks

[00:09:02] that you that you that you don't like. And that if you can, if you can be disciplined about

[00:09:09] really writing down everything you do for a week or two and put that in a draining

[00:09:15] and in energizing, you start to clarify some of those things.

[00:09:21] The second one is actually from from EOS, which is a delegate and elevate exercise.

[00:09:27] And the you know, really what you do is you write down, OK, if you're using EOS, you'd say, OK,

[00:09:34] I'm like I'm sitting in four seats. You know, maybe I'm the visionary and I'm the integrator

[00:09:40] and I'm the director of finance and I'm the director of sales.

[00:09:44] And you write down, OK, what are all the roles or the responsibilities of those seats,

[00:09:51] specifically? And then you and then you put them in those different areas, in those different

[00:09:56] buckets we talked about earlier. So what do you don't you not like and you're not good at?

[00:10:01] What do you not like and you're good at? What are you good at and you like? And then

[00:10:05] what do you love and you're great at? And so when you when you go through that exercise,

[00:10:12] you start to things start to become really crystal clear.

[00:10:15] So things that drain your energy, we delegate as quickly as possible.

[00:10:21] Things that we don't like and we're not good at, we delegate as quickly as possible.

[00:10:24] And then and then you just move along those. You can't do it all right away.

[00:10:30] There, you know, there it's almost impossible to do it right away. But

[00:10:34] you as you start to shed stuff, as you start to gain more energy in your day to day,

[00:10:39] then you start to realize, oh, my goodness, this is the stuff that's like

[00:10:43] this is my highest and best use. And I need to absolutely get rid of all of the other stuff

[00:10:49] that's not generating the most the most energy for me, the most bang for the buck for for

[00:10:56] for my time that I'm spending in the company. And, you know, and yeah, and what's the,

[00:11:01] you know, what's for the greater good of the of the business as well?

[00:11:05] OK, so if I heard you right, it's part doing your energy audit and understanding

[00:11:12] that what gives me energy, what drains energy and then combine it with the

[00:11:17] kind of the US tool right where you understand the four areas you're in

[00:11:22] and which one of those really drain you.

[00:11:26] And combining those gives you the best picture.

[00:11:28] Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[00:11:31] Yeah. And there's one other way would be to kind of like survey the people closest to

[00:11:37] you like, you know, and so maybe your direct reports, maybe your spouse,

[00:11:43] maybe some of your best friends. Like because a lot of times it's blind spots for us.

[00:11:49] You know, we don't we actually don't know what's our what our zone of genius is unless we do

[00:11:53] a lot of work on it or unless we talk to people or ask, you know, hey, what do you

[00:11:59] you know, what do you see me being the absolute best at? What do you think is my

[00:12:03] really unique gift, my unique thing that I bring to the world that nobody else does?

[00:12:08] And if you know, that's that's one additional way that you can really like start to become

[00:12:14] even more clear than just doing this like self reflective work

[00:12:18] because you definitely want to get an outside perspective as well.

[00:12:22] Yeah, I love that.

[00:12:24] I love that. And so combining what drains energy

[00:12:29] and so you said go back and write down everything you did for the last two weeks.

[00:12:34] I went through an exercise like that. One thing that helped me, at least personally was

[00:12:39] I had so much in my calendar already. So just reflecting at the end of the day.

[00:12:45] OK, in the spots that weren't scheduled, what did I do? What was I doing? Email?

[00:12:49] Was I on the phone with a client? What's I doing? AR? I don't know.

[00:12:54] You know, what were the things and then, you know, does that give energy or take energy?

[00:12:58] Or take energy? Yeah. So if you've got a lot, it may not.

[00:13:03] You know, it may not be as arduous as it sounds, right?

[00:13:05] Because you're probably have a decent number of things where you can say,

[00:13:08] you know, if I really did what the calendar said, I had an hour,

[00:13:12] you know, with an on site meeting or with a client or whatever,

[00:13:15] whatever your whatever calendar saying.

[00:13:18] So you can it seems like you can pull these things together

[00:13:21] when you're asking the folks closest.

[00:13:24] I love that you gave specifics, right? Your director, your spouse,

[00:13:29] the folks, friends that you spend the most time with.

[00:13:33] How would you approach that? What is the ask or do you have any recommendations when

[00:13:36] you go and say, hey, guys, I'm I'm kind of weird.

[00:13:39] I want to know more about myself like there's probably a better way to say that.

[00:13:42] Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, I think it's really like,

[00:13:46] I mean, I've got I've got kind of a, you know,

[00:13:51] yeah, I guess I guess some somewhat of a framework around it.

[00:13:54] I don't have it in front of me right now, but it's it's basically like,

[00:13:57] hey, I mean, you can even write an email like, hey, I'm really sure

[00:14:01] I'm doing some self reflective work.

[00:14:02] I'm really trying to understand what the people closest to me think that I'm

[00:14:08] that I'm really good at.

[00:14:09] So where do you see me?

[00:14:12] You know, where do you see me shine the most?

[00:14:14] Where do you see me the happiest?

[00:14:15] Where do you see me the most energized?

[00:14:17] What am I doing that makes the most impact in the world?

[00:14:20] And asking, you know, asking questions like that of of the people closest to you,

[00:14:27] you know, or in the world, you know, most impact in the world or in the business.

[00:14:31] What do you think I should start doing?

[00:14:32] What do you think I should stop doing?

[00:14:34] That's another that's another really good good question to ask as it relates to that.

[00:14:39] And if they're honest with you, if they're willing to be,

[00:14:42] you know, like honest and like and actually, you know, share with you,

[00:14:46] it'll give you some really good some really good data

[00:14:49] and some really good actionable insights.

[00:14:52] So yeah, those are those are probably those are just questions off the top of my head

[00:14:55] that I would ask if I were if I were if I were doing something like that.

[00:14:59] Yeah, I love that.

[00:15:01] Yeah, I suppose depending on how candid those relationships are,

[00:15:04] you may get more direct advice versus just you're you're really great.

[00:15:09] A lot of things which really wouldn't be very helpful.

[00:15:13] I love that you said not only what can I start doing, but what could I stop doing?

[00:15:18] Tell me more about why you said that.

[00:15:21] Yeah, that was I want to say.

[00:15:25] That's just an exercise that I've gone through in the past,

[00:15:30] which is which is like, hey, you know, among the leadership team,

[00:15:33] we'd have, you know, we'd have that we'd have that right.

[00:15:36] So we'd be like, OK, it's start stop time.

[00:15:39] So we all we just sit down and for each person,

[00:15:43] we'd say, hey, here's what I think you need to start doing.

[00:15:45] Here's what I think you need to stop doing.

[00:15:48] And and we had a culture of very candid feedback, very open conversation, very.

[00:15:55] It took us a long time to get there.

[00:15:57] Like, don't don't get me wrong.

[00:15:58] We had so many struggles with all of this stuff.

[00:16:01] But but if you can get to that point where it's like, hey, I'm willing to share hard things

[00:16:07] without fear of being judged.

[00:16:09] And there's this there's this base of trust that goes back to five dysfunctions of a team.

[00:16:15] But there's this there's this base of trust we can share the right things

[00:16:20] or share hard things and know, hey, it's OK.

[00:16:24] And we can have a good candid conversation about those things.

[00:16:26] So so yeah.

[00:16:27] So so really, it's just like that would just be an exercise that we go through is like,

[00:16:31] all right, here's what I think for each person.

[00:16:34] Here's what I think you need to start doing.

[00:16:35] Here's what I think you need to stop doing.

[00:16:37] No judgment.

[00:16:38] Just this is this is just my thoughts.

[00:16:41] Right. And you can choose to do that or not do that.

[00:16:45] But if everybody has your thoughts about it and the choice is theirs at that point.

[00:16:50] So have you ever wondered if you could recover your backups?

[00:16:56] Let me ask a better question.

[00:16:58] Have you ever had a backup fail to recover?

[00:17:00] Have you ever lost data?

[00:17:02] Yeah, that's me.

[00:17:03] Here's what's crazy.

[00:17:04] Fifty eight percent of recoveries failed to recover.

[00:17:07] So if you think it's just you, you couldn't be more wrong.

[00:17:11] What are we going to do about that?

[00:17:13] Well, you've got two options.

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[00:17:57] I know as an entrepreneur, my list of things that I want to do or start doing

[00:18:01] seems to grow and become infinite.

[00:18:05] Did you find that the stop doing was harder or more impactful

[00:18:09] than the start doing sometimes or not?

[00:18:15] Yeah, I think that it really can be.

[00:18:17] I think that it's like, you know, the more things that we can drop

[00:18:23] so that we can really focus in on those zone of genius things,

[00:18:27] the better.

[00:18:28] Right?

[00:18:28] I mean, it goes back to 80-20.

[00:18:31] It goes back, you know, to a lot of different things.

[00:18:34] Like there's probably like three things that you should be doing as a CEO.

[00:18:41] You know, maybe four.

[00:18:43] The list should not be long.

[00:18:45] And you should probably spend most of your time in those areas

[00:18:52] and, you know, to the detriment of everything else.

[00:18:55] And just like, hey, here's my lane, here's my zone

[00:19:00] and anything else that needs to be done, I got to find somebody to do it.

[00:19:06] Gotcha.

[00:19:07] So getting the stop doing list is really powerful.

[00:19:13] I incorporated with my direct reports a weekly cadence

[00:19:19] and asked three questions, but one of them is,

[00:19:24] what do I need to stop doing?

[00:19:26] It's not only for me, but what I realized is sometimes they're like,

[00:19:30] stop handing me these additional things outside of my lane

[00:19:33] or stop being, you know, vague when you're trying to assign something.

[00:19:39] And, you know, it's more helpful when they're more candid.

[00:19:42] The individual and when you build that rapport.

[00:19:45] But, you know, it's been helpful because it's not only been helpful to me.

[00:19:50] What do I need to stop doing?

[00:19:51] Maybe there's things I shouldn't do, but as often just by asking that,

[00:19:55] it's kind of like you said, giving that permission

[00:19:58] to be vulnerable and open and say, you know, stop doing this.

[00:20:02] And sometimes like, hey, I'm spending my time outside my lane,

[00:20:05] but also it's just like, stop doing this to me, you know.

[00:20:10] And I think if I didn't ask that, I wouldn't get that feedback.

[00:20:14] I can definitely relate to what you said.

[00:20:16] It takes some time to build that culture.

[00:20:20] How did you do that with your team so that you could get there?

[00:20:23] Because you don't start there.

[00:20:25] And it seems like I don't know if you disagree.

[00:20:28] It seems like when you if you had three people and you go to four

[00:20:31] or if you have two and you go to three or whatever it is,

[00:20:33] every time you add a new person, sometimes it can feel like you start all over.

[00:20:38] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:20:39] So how do you get to that culture and level of candor?

[00:20:43] You know, it's got to be part of the culture, right?

[00:20:47] It's got to be like, hey, we are we are going to engage in authentic communication,

[00:20:58] which means that we're, you know, we're not.

[00:21:03] We're it's it's communication without judgment.

[00:21:06] It's communication without without demanding.

[00:21:10] It's there's no arguing.

[00:21:13] There's no like, hey, we're we're all here on the same team.

[00:21:17] We're all working for the greater good of the company.

[00:21:21] And and you don't have to fear, you know, being fired because you

[00:21:28] because you because you speak your mind right at the end of the day.

[00:21:34] You know, somebody's got to make a decision.

[00:21:36] If there's disagreement and, you know, and then there's disagree and commit.

[00:21:39] Right. So if we're all on the same team, we're able to,

[00:21:44] you know, we're able to have these conversations that are,

[00:21:47] you know, it's we have this we have a foundation of trust.

[00:21:50] So at the end of the day, we're all in this for the greater good.

[00:21:54] And if the greater good means that I don't get my way, that's OK.

[00:21:59] And and then and then having conversations in a way that,

[00:22:04] you know, there's this whole this whole concept of authentic communication

[00:22:10] or nonviolent communication. I don't know if you've ever heard of that.

[00:22:13] But but we but we actually talked about that.

[00:22:16] What's that? Yeah. Tell me more about that.

[00:22:17] I want to make sure, you know, for everybody listening,

[00:22:20] we are on the same page about what you mean by that.

[00:22:22] It's really a way of of of having a conversation that that results in

[00:22:28] in a positive action. So so let's say I'm having a let's say I'm struggling with something.

[00:22:36] I have a feeling right. It starts with a feeling.

[00:22:38] So so if you, you know, well, yeah, so sorry, let me go through it.

[00:22:44] So it starts with a feeling and then it goes to a need.

[00:22:47] Right. So if I have a feeling, if I have a negative feeling,

[00:22:50] it's because I have some need or desire that's not being met.

[00:22:54] And then then it goes into.

[00:22:58] So I'm trying to I'm trying to solidify the framework in my head as we're talking.

[00:23:03] So there's a feeling and then there's a need.

[00:23:05] And then eventually it gets around to a request.

[00:23:07] Right. So let's say you said something to me like,

[00:23:10] or, you know, let's say I was we were going to have a meeting and you showed up late.

[00:23:16] And I was and I was like, and I needed to have a conversation with you about it.

[00:23:20] Hey, when you know, when you showed up or late to this meeting, right.

[00:23:25] And you start with the, you know, what happened because it's like

[00:23:28] it's an observable thing that happened.

[00:23:30] Right. It's not like I don't start with you.

[00:23:34] You don't like me or you're so disrespectful because right.

[00:23:37] So, Damien, when you should have a.

[00:23:39] Effect. Yeah. You talk about the fact.

[00:23:41] Yeah. OK. Yeah.

[00:23:42] So when you showed up late for this meeting,

[00:23:45] I really felt, you know, disrespected because my time is really valuable.

[00:23:50] And I and I and I and I really feel like I need to be disrespect or need to be need

[00:23:55] to feel respect in the future.

[00:23:58] Would you be willing to let me know if you're going to be late for a meeting?

[00:24:03] And if you can if you can talk, speak to what's your feeling,

[00:24:07] what you're feeling and what your need is and make a make a request that's actionable

[00:24:12] that they can actually do, then then you have the ability to have a much more productive

[00:24:20] conversation. And by the way, you can't be like attached to the outcome.

[00:24:24] Right. They may say, no, I'm not willing to do that because of X, Y and Z.

[00:24:29] And you might have to learn to live with that or you might have to have another

[00:24:33] conversation around that.

[00:24:35] But but yeah, so so that's one example of how we kind of, you know, how we

[00:24:41] built some of that trust, because when you ask people in a way like, hey, would you be

[00:24:45] willing to do this? It gives them agency.

[00:24:48] It gives them freedom to say, yes, I would.

[00:24:50] Or I would with, you know, with these caveats to it or something like that.

[00:24:55] Or no, I'm not willing to.

[00:24:56] And here's why.

[00:24:57] And and so yeah, so that's that's an example of nonviolent communication or

[00:25:03] authentic communication.

[00:25:05] I love that.

[00:25:06] Yeah. And I love because we all have these feelings and we don't always feel

[00:25:12] comfortable being open or vulnerable, you know, and I know sometimes in the

[00:25:17] business, you just want to be like, why are you late?

[00:25:20] And that's not the right way to handle it.

[00:25:21] So that that authentic or nonviolent communication is super helpful.

[00:25:26] So and you're saying that's part of how you built the culture, built the

[00:25:32] trust.

[00:25:32] Yeah.

[00:25:33] Yeah.

[00:25:34] Exactly.

[00:25:35] Yeah, it was.

[00:25:37] It was I think it was actually a key part because, you know, when you when you

[00:25:41] get to, you know, instead of demands or commands or that kind of a thing,

[00:25:47] even even in a direct report situation like, hey, people feel different when

[00:25:53] you're like, hey, would you be willing to do this?

[00:25:56] Then, hey, I need you to do this or, you know, go here and do that,

[00:26:00] you know, like which you can as the boss.

[00:26:03] Right.

[00:26:03] But how does that make the how does that make your people feel in and in

[00:26:08] which in which scenario do they feel more respected, have more agency?

[00:26:13] And, you know, and yeah, so that's that's just something, you know,

[00:26:17] something to think about is like, how do you how do you ask people to

[00:26:20] do or tell people to do things?

[00:26:24] Can it could make a big difference?

[00:26:26] Sure.

[00:26:27] Yeah.

[00:26:27] And I think, you know, even the somewhat simple example, like there are some

[00:26:32] people that if you're a minute or two late, that's a big sign of disrespect.

[00:26:38] And they kind of take it personally, like you said.

[00:26:40] And there's others.

[00:26:41] They just that's how they are.

[00:26:43] They're going to show up late.

[00:26:45] And if you don't create if you don't use the language to handle that.

[00:26:50] And I think most people would if you said, hey, this, you know, you were late.

[00:26:56] This is how it made me feel.

[00:26:58] Would you be would you be willing to do this?

[00:27:01] Would you be willing to show up on time or let me know if you're not

[00:27:05] and tell them that that makes you feel, you know, disrespected?

[00:27:09] I think most people will rise to the occasion because you're

[00:27:12] going to that effort to communicate that instead of right.

[00:27:16] I think a lot of times it's easy in the busyness of life and client

[00:27:19] demands and phone ringing and email and team messages, like messages,

[00:27:23] whatever the things are to be like, why are you late and just get mad?

[00:27:27] And either probably the worst is not saying anything and let it build up

[00:27:31] or say anything.

[00:27:33] But if you say it, you can just be like, hey, if you're late again,

[00:27:37] I'm going to yell at you.

[00:27:38] You're you're going to you know, this is going to have some consequence.

[00:27:41] Well, I love the openness.

[00:27:44] It was so powerful.

[00:27:45] Can you think of any other using that kind of language

[00:27:49] that you, you know, see people needing to have or you had to have around

[00:27:55] here was an issue and here's how we used nonviolent authentic communication?

[00:28:01] So I'm let's say I'm bringing some,

[00:28:05] you know, a financial, you know, as a CFO at the time,

[00:28:09] I was bringing a financial report to the team.

[00:28:14] And there was some error in it, right.

[00:28:17] For one reason or another.

[00:28:18] And somebody got upset like, hey, like it's really important for our financials

[00:28:24] to be correct if you, you know, and kind of raise their voice

[00:28:28] and was like, we can't we can't trust any of this data.

[00:28:31] It's crap because there's this one error in it.

[00:28:35] You know, I might I might be like, OK, you know, fair enough.

[00:28:40] There's an error.

[00:28:41] I'm going to go fix that.

[00:28:42] And then and then we can come back and talk about it.

[00:28:45] And then I might later on go to that, go to that person and say something like, hey,

[00:28:51] when you, you know, when we were looking at the financial data

[00:28:55] and there was an error and you raised your voice to me,

[00:29:00] it kind of hurt my feelings, you know, because I think that,

[00:29:04] you know, our our culture kind of states, hey,

[00:29:07] we're going to have respectful conversations.

[00:29:09] And and that, you know, that hit me pretty hard internally.

[00:29:14] And so, you know, I would just ask that in the future, if you get upset,

[00:29:21] it's OK to be upset, but I'd ask you to use calm,

[00:29:23] a calmer tone with me in the future.

[00:29:24] Would you be willing to do that?

[00:29:27] And that would be a way to have that kind of conversation.

[00:29:31] And 99% of the time when you have a conversation like that,

[00:29:35] they'll be like, man, I'm sorry, I was, that was a jerk.

[00:29:39] Yes, I would be willing to try my best to not raise my voice to you in the future.

[00:29:44] So right.

[00:29:46] I love it because at least from my perspective,

[00:29:49] you're approaching it and in a respectful way,

[00:29:53] you're also you're giving them an opportunity to help you.

[00:29:57] Right. And I think a lot of us, we have empathy or

[00:30:00] especially if you're in the technical field, you're a problem solver.

[00:30:02] Here's a problem. I could solve it.

[00:30:04] Right. So you're giving them an opportunity to solve that problem.

[00:30:07] Like this is the problem because you're framing it from your perspective

[00:30:09] and nobody can dispute how you feel.

[00:30:13] Right. It's your feeling.

[00:30:15] Yeah, they can tell you you're stupid, but, you know,

[00:30:17] sure. Right.

[00:30:18] They can't say all kinds of things.

[00:30:20] Right. But it's really hard to dispute.

[00:30:21] This is how that made me feel.

[00:30:24] And so I love that.

[00:30:25] It also means you have to start with some

[00:30:27] just thinking out loud some vulnerability, right?

[00:30:29] You have to be able to approach them and say that.

[00:30:32] And I think only the most hardened jerk would be like,

[00:30:35] whatever.

[00:30:36] Yeah, like you said, in 99% of cases, they would they would go,

[00:30:41] okay, wow, you know, I had a bad day, a busy day, this and that,

[00:30:46] and I just kind of erupted and, you know, apologize.

[00:30:51] And whether they do or don't, like, I think there's some

[00:30:55] probably record built because you came and said that.

[00:30:59] And then, you know, even if they didn't apologize,

[00:31:01] said, okay, you know, I won't handle it that way in the future.

[00:31:05] Which it just seems so much better than a lot of other cultures

[00:31:10] that even if they're not a, let's say, a really bad,

[00:31:13] you know, kind of toxic on the other end of the spectrum.

[00:31:17] But it's too easy in the busyness to sweep that stuff under the rug.

[00:31:22] Right. There's like, for example, there's too many nice people out there.

[00:31:25] You get as nice people that are listening that they won't bring that up.

[00:31:30] They'll just get mad and they remember it.

[00:31:33] And there's like this secret tally of the number of times Brian raised his voice

[00:31:37] and I'm mad at him for that nobody knows about.

[00:31:40] But I didn't have the courage to go to Brian and say, Brian,

[00:31:43] I don't like that. This is how it made me feel.

[00:31:46] Would you in the future?

[00:31:48] So I love that because it creates a culture where you need to be open

[00:31:52] and vulnerable, which is a hard thing to do.

[00:31:54] And it kind of part of this is because there's a lot of nice people out there.

[00:32:01] Part of this because I'm in the south, the southern part of the U.S.,

[00:32:03] so we tend to be very nice and that can be great in one aspect

[00:32:09] and another maybe they're not telling you the hard truth of like the way that you,

[00:32:14] like in your example, raise your voice that, you know,

[00:32:17] that wasn't what I wanted to have.

[00:32:19] So I love that you're creating that because otherwise all those

[00:32:25] quote unquote little things over time really add up to where they're like,

[00:32:30] I don't know if I want to go in this meeting with Brian because,

[00:32:34] you know, not every time, but at that time at this time, this happened.

[00:32:38] But if I didn't let you know that you have no opportunity to do anything about it.

[00:32:43] And I'll just speak personally.

[00:32:45] I'm going to do something like that.

[00:32:47] Probably if you work with me long enough and not hotheaded,

[00:32:52] but make mistakes and do something or say something that maybe

[00:32:56] was insensitive or not the right time or whatever.

[00:32:58] And if you would give me the gift of telling me that,

[00:33:03] then we have an opportunity to take what was a negative and turn it into a positive.

[00:33:09] So I love how that ties all the way back into culture.

[00:33:14] I wonder if you coaching people to do that, but also if you,

[00:33:20] if this isn't maybe a nuance to your zone of genius, Brian, wonder if this

[00:33:26] authentic conversations or maybe even emotional intelligence is one of your zones of genius.

[00:33:35] It seems like something that you're just exceptionally good at bringing out.

[00:33:40] Well, thank you for that.

[00:33:42] And I, you know, that's really good external feedback.

[00:33:46] So, you know, like we were talking about earlier, like getting feedback on that.

[00:33:51] It's, you know, it's vulnerability, right?

[00:33:55] Vulnerability is hard, but it also breeds other more vulnerability.

[00:34:00] And so, you know, so the question then is how do you start to become

[00:34:05] a little more comfortable with it?

[00:34:07] Because it's never easy, right?

[00:34:09] It's never fun.

[00:34:10] How do you, how do you start to show that courage to have those conversations

[00:34:14] and to give, to give feedback that might be tough?

[00:34:19] How do you start to see feedback as a gift instead of a,

[00:34:22] you know, instead of something that's just like,

[00:34:25] wow, they're criticizing me right now.

[00:34:27] Actually, they're giving you ways to improve.

[00:34:29] They're giving you ways to learn.

[00:34:31] And yeah, and it's, and it's so important, like you said earlier with your,

[00:34:36] you know, when you ask your employees or your team members,

[00:34:39] hey, what do I need to stop doing?

[00:34:41] That opens something up because most of the time people are just not willing to share,

[00:34:45] especially with their boss, you know, their feedback,

[00:34:48] their true feedback.

[00:34:49] And you're just like, hey, if you're like, hey, do you have any feedback for me?

[00:34:52] They're not going to answer you because the stakes are too high.

[00:34:55] That's right.

[00:34:56] And so how do you elicit that from them?

[00:34:58] Right.

[00:34:59] And so it's like, hey, you know, if you're not giving me some feedback

[00:35:03] or some way that I can improve, you're not being completely honest with me.

[00:35:07] And then, and I've got to figure out a way to elicit that feedback from them.

[00:35:11] And so I like, I like what you do with that.

[00:35:14] And there's, there's some other ways to do that as well.

[00:35:16] But yeah.

[00:35:17] Yeah. I love that you brought that up, Brian.

[00:35:19] Like I, you know, like most good things, I didn't create it.

[00:35:25] I learned it from others.

[00:35:26] Like what should I stop doing is one of those questions.

[00:35:29] But the most candid folks and the folks have the best relationship.

[00:35:34] They give the gift more often.

[00:35:37] But frankly, there's easier questions to ask.

[00:35:41] You know, are, do I need, do you need anything this week?

[00:35:44] Do you have any roadblocks?

[00:35:45] Those are much easier to answer.

[00:35:46] What do you need to stop doing is the ones that most people just take a while to answer.

[00:35:53] And you, you hit this nail on the head.

[00:35:57] Okay. So I'm the, I'm your boss.

[00:35:59] I understand the dynamic and why you might be more hesitant to share.

[00:36:03] But the challenge for me at least is it just because I am the boss

[00:36:09] does not immediately mean that I'm great at being vulnerable or that instantly,

[00:36:14] as soon as I became the boss, gained this emotional intelligence

[00:36:17] to be able to pull it out of you.

[00:36:20] And so, you know, that's, I guess to me just trying to be open and vulnerable, like,

[00:36:24] wow, I need this from you.

[00:36:28] You know, I need you to not only give it to your aware of it,

[00:36:30] but I need it from you because I won't know.

[00:36:34] And so I think it's, it's in some ways counterintuitive that I don't want to tell them

[00:36:39] that, you know, like for example, let's go back to the one user earlier.

[00:36:44] Um, maybe I showed up to a meeting late.

[00:36:49] Well, I'm the boss.

[00:36:49] What are you going to do?

[00:36:50] Like, you know what I mean?

[00:36:51] Like they're, what are they, they're going to say, hey, boss,

[00:36:53] if you don't show up, we're going to fire you.

[00:36:54] Like, they're not going to do that.

[00:36:56] Right. I totally get that.

[00:36:58] But, uh, I would love if somebody came and said, look, this is, you know,

[00:37:05] we have all these other competing initiatives that my time is valuable.

[00:37:08] This is how it made me feel.

[00:37:10] You know, would you let us know if you're running late or would you show up on time?

[00:37:14] Or something and give me the opportunity to respond.

[00:37:17] So just tying it into your other example, I would love that instead of just, um,

[00:37:23] instead of just if I did show up late, which I, I tried very hard to not do,

[00:37:27] but as a side note, but if I did like give me the gift and I think sometimes the language

[00:37:33] like, you know, calling it a gift versus, you know, um, constructive criticism,

[00:37:40] right. Because criticism is never going to have a good connotation, right?

[00:37:44] So, um, I love that.

[00:37:47] I know that for me is already a takeaway.

[00:37:52] I, uh, uh, I wanted to ask, it seems like you're really good at this.

[00:37:57] Um, as you're coaching your clients, do you see other issues related to culture that

[00:38:04] or what are the top issues you see that maybe catch people?

[00:38:07] Catch my surprise.

[00:38:08] I know as I'm growing, sometimes I'm like, oh my gosh, now I see in hindsight.

[00:38:13] Um, what do you see related to either zone of genius or culture or just

[00:38:19] as you're growing, you start to hit this pain line or you started this wall?

[00:38:25] Yeah. Um, yeah.

[00:38:28] I mean, I'll the first thing that comes to mind, um, is as you're growing, um,

[00:38:35] you have, you know, you kind of have a culture gets created, right?

[00:38:40] Um, by default, right? Whether you defined it or not, there is every company has a culture.

[00:38:45] Um, and what, uh, a lot of business owners realize, um, I have, I have one client in

[00:38:51] particular that, um, you know, he's got somebody who's a great worker does awesome,

[00:38:57] you know, does awesome work, takes care of clients, all of that cannot seem to show up

[00:39:02] on time ever. You know, usually an hour or two later than he's supposed to come in,

[00:39:07] but he works late to make up for it. But, but it also causes other problems for the owner

[00:39:12] and other team members. Right. Um, so, so it's kind of like, uh,

[00:39:17] Hey, you know, this guy's a great worker. He's been with us for a long time.

[00:39:21] He knows what he's doing. He's already trained all of that. Um,

[00:39:25] but your culture becomes what you tolerate. Right. And so, so one of two things is

[00:39:31] going to happen either that's going to be your culture, um, or you're going to lose good people,

[00:39:38] um, because they're going to see this person not carrying the weight or, and,

[00:39:42] or you're going to get burned out as a leader because you're picking up slack from this person

[00:39:46] not, not showing up on time. So you've inadvertently created this culture. Um, that's,

[00:39:52] you know, that's gonna, that's gonna really cause you problems, um, down the line. And so,

[00:39:57] so I think it's like, I think it's going well, the huge, the huge challenge is that you've got to

[00:40:02] make some very, very hard decisions as you grow with as related to culture. Cause you can train,

[00:40:10] you know, you can train the skill, but you can't train the culture fit. Um, or you can coach

[00:40:15] them. Um, but there's, you know, there's, there's a limit to where, you know, to how,

[00:40:21] how much you can coach people. And so, um, so I think it's, I think it's learning to make those

[00:40:26] hard decisions. Um, and the, you know, every time like I've never, I don't know, I'd love

[00:40:34] to hear your experience on this, but as many people as I've had to let go, um, over time,

[00:40:40] I've never once been like, Oh my gosh, I wish I hadn't done that later. Later on,

[00:40:44] six months down the road. Yeah. Do you have, have you had that same experience?

[00:40:49] This exact same experience, right. And I tried to reflect on that. I've never regretted letting

[00:40:55] somebody go. And if you're not in that position, you meant that may sound heartless, but what,

[00:41:00] what I've internalized that to mean is that probably means I've in a lot of cases,

[00:41:06] waited too long. Um, and after asking others on the team, sometimes they're like,

[00:41:13] why didn't you make this decision three months ago? Like, this is really killing us.

[00:41:17] We're taking on the extra work because of that person. We're doing this or that.

[00:41:22] I love what you said earlier, cause it really captures it right? Your culture is what you

[00:41:25] tolerate. Um, so yeah, to answer your question, Brian, I have never regretted letting somebody go.

[00:41:32] I have on the other hand, regretted keeping the wrong person too long. And most, you know,

[00:41:39] you tied in, it often comes down skill can be learned. It often comes down to this culture

[00:41:43] fit. And, you know, you keep hoping, keep coaching, you keep, and at the end of the day,

[00:41:49] like there's hope that, you know, you probably have to be an optimist and have hope to have

[00:41:54] been an entrepreneur in the first place and gone through the pain of starting a business.

[00:41:59] But then there's this just unreasonable hope that I hope this person is going to become

[00:42:02] a different person when they show up tomorrow. And that's, that's where I have waited too

[00:42:08] long. Yeah, yes. And in the, in another interesting thought around that is, okay,

[00:42:14] if we're, for instance, if we're trying to create, um, you know, a cult, if we're trying

[00:42:18] to have only a players, right? If we're trying to create this amazing high performance

[00:42:22] culture and we've never regretted letting somebody go, are we, are we doing that?

[00:42:30] Are we truly doing that? Right? So like if we're in, and I don't necessarily like the

[00:42:36] idea of like, Hey, we're always cutting the bottom 10% or whatever. But there's a thought

[00:42:41] in there of like, Hmm, are we like, do we actually have the best team that we can possibly

[00:42:46] have? Um, and, and are we, you know, are we consistently, um, you know, moving,

[00:42:53] moving forward in that? So, um, so yeah, that's just another thought I had as you were

[00:42:58] talking about that. Yeah, yeah. Somebody asked me a question one time, which is,

[00:43:03] let's say this business was done, you're starting another, but you're doing the same

[00:43:06] thing, which enthusiastically rehire every individual. And so sometimes it's helped me

[00:43:13] go, Oh, well I didn't know that like, Oh, I guess, you know, others are absolutely,

[00:43:18] absolutely, absolutely. And the others are like, yeah. And that sometimes gives that

[00:43:23] insight to Ariella. It's like, Oh, I think the ones where they're, you know,

[00:43:28] they're just horrible. Those are easy. You know what I mean? Like it's never fun

[00:43:31] to let somebody go, but they're, those are easy. It's the ones in between where it's

[00:43:35] like, Oh, well they usually show up on time or they usually get the work done.

[00:43:39] Yeah. And you're just in, and that's that decision. Um, I can very much relate to what

[00:43:45] you said earlier of like, you know, you said you have a client that is a,

[00:43:50] you know, somebody that shows up late, right? And pretty significantly an hour or two,

[00:43:54] um, probably harder to fire, to fire them. But we had a family member that was like that.

[00:44:00] And so harder to fire them. But the funny thing about it is we ended up having to tell

[00:44:04] them Thanksgiving, it was two hours earlier than it really was because they were usually an hour

[00:44:10] and a half to two hours late and we weren't going to wait on them. So, um, so they come

[00:44:16] flying in there two hours late and they were like, you know, amongst the first to arrive

[00:44:20] because we just, as a family, like we just knew we had to tell them a different, uh,

[00:44:25] nailed it. Yeah, that's brilliant. Yeah. It is. And it's sad because like you want to tell them,

[00:44:32] like you don't want to have to come up with an alternate reality, a different truth,

[00:44:36] like the real reality is that was that one, but we had to tell you that 11,

[00:44:40] you know, Thanksgiving's at 11 and, uh, you know, I may or may not do that with my

[00:44:44] teenagers from time to time, you know, just set it, just set it a half an hour earlier.

[00:44:50] And then it's like, Oh, look at that. We're on time. This is amazing.

[00:44:56] I've learned that about myself. Right. It's just like what you're going by everything earlier.

[00:44:59] It's like if you're on time, you're late. So it's just like, well, I've, I've got to,

[00:45:05] I've got to set my, uh, time to arrive as earlier than what the time says so that I'm,

[00:45:13] you know, not wasting your time. I'm showing up, I'm prepared, I'm ready.

[00:45:16] Yeah. So peaceful, uh, by the way, when you do that, it's just like, yeah, I'm not in a rush.

[00:45:22] I'm just, I'm peaceful and I'm just, I'm strolling in instead of,

[00:45:26] you know, instead of running, right? Yes. I was actually just reading, um, uh, one of the

[00:45:33] Tim Ferriss books and he was saying today, one of his luxuries is just not being rushed.

[00:45:40] You know, luxury for him, luxury was less about the fancy car and just a little bit

[00:45:45] less rushed. Um, and so yeah, and not bringing that into that meeting is also great from a

[00:45:52] culture perspective. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, um, I feel like I can talk to you all day.

[00:46:00] Probably shouldn't for your sake. Uh, Brian, this has been incredible. Thank you for,

[00:46:06] um, spending the time to talk to me today to be vulnerable and, uh, and to talk to,

[00:46:13] uh, everybody that's listening and watching about what you do. Um, speaking to that,

[00:46:18] thank you first of all. And, uh, thank you for doing it. And then, um, how can,

[00:46:25] how can my audience find you? Uh, if they want to ask you a question, get connected,

[00:46:29] get your help where, where do they find you? Yeah, absolutely. So I'll start with, um,

[00:46:34] uh, website discovery.brianhoppy.com. I actually have, um, a guide there that's just

[00:46:40] talks about kind of how to, how to scale your MSP. So there's, there's some,

[00:46:44] some really good info there. So that's discovery.brianhoppy.com and then LinkedIn.

[00:46:48] So it's, it's just, you know, Brian Hoppy on LinkedIn and, um, you can, or it's yeah,

[00:46:54] slash in slash Brian Hoppy, um, is my, uh, is my link there. And, um,

[00:46:59] and so I'm on LinkedIn all the time DM me, uh, I'll be, you know, I'm usually pretty quick

[00:47:04] to respond there as well. So, um, either one of those spots is, is good. Awesome. We'll make

[00:47:09] sure to put the links in the description, but if you're listening, Hoppy is H O P P E

[00:47:15] just to make it a little easier for you. Yes. And I'm Brian with an I that's spelled

[00:47:19] the correct way. I love that. I, I've yeah, last name Stevens. I also with a V the

[00:47:27] correct way. And I said, I tend to have that. How does the pH make a V sound?

[00:47:31] Yeah, it's exactly right. So, um, so yeah, I love that. Um, this is awesome, Brian. Thank

[00:47:38] you for just the gift today. Um, and, uh, please reach out to Brian. Uh, again, he's been in the

[00:47:45] dredges from a technician, the CEO, he's, uh, grown, um, MSPs to five, 10 million plus. So,

[00:47:55] uh, I'm sure he could help be a resource, whether it's culture, whether it's vulnerability,

[00:47:59] uh, whether it's a whole host of other things. Um, don't miss out on this opportunity to

[00:48:03] reach out to Brian. Thank you so much for being here, Brian. You're welcome.