From 3 Employees to 100, How to Manage Expectations After Rocketship Growth - MSP Titan #13

[00:00:00] Hey, before we get into this interview, my team and I, we're going to be in person at the Grocon 2024 event in St. Petersburg, Florida. It's December 3rd through the 5th. We're going to be recording with amazing MSPs like you. And if sales and marketing is something that you need to be better at, and let's face it, all of us MSPs do, then this is the event you can't miss. So join me and my team there. And by the way, it's completely free.

[00:00:28] I consistently tell them everything is going to take longer than they think, it's going to be more painful than they think, and they're going to get less out of it than they think. And they consistently over-execute and do exceptional. And when they don't, the expectations were met. But that doesn't always trickle down. A new manager tends to never do that. A new manager always is like, we're going to get you that raise, we're going to get you what you need. You know, all we have to do is just do this. They're a bit of the hype man. Works great when it works, blows up in your face when it doesn't.

[00:00:56] Hey guys, Damien Stevens, host of MSP Mindset. And today I continue my mission to interview 100 of the most interesting and fastest growing MSPs on the planet. And today I am fortunate to be joined by Marcus Olson of Pliancy.

[00:01:15] He has one of the rare few that I've got a second interview with, and he's one of the fastest growing MSPs on the planet. And today he opened up what happens when that growth happens.

[00:01:26] With just craters. How do you manage your mindset? And how do you communicate that to your team? It's easy when things are working. What do you do when they stop working?

[00:01:37] He digs into how he had to upgrade his mindset and how he had to completely change how he communicates with his team. If that's interesting to you, don't miss out on our conversation.

[00:01:49] Tell me about this rocket ship growth. You're one of the few folks that I liked enough to have on a second time.

[00:01:56] Oh, thank you.

[00:01:57] And so that says a lot from my perspective, at least. So I appreciate you being willing to come back, Marcus.

[00:02:04] And I may have my numbers a little wrong, but whatever you want to share, revenue or employees, but over five years, you guys are just a rocket ship.

[00:02:11] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I share everything. I'm not, there's no reason not to. It doesn't matter to me. My competitors already know they've been trying to acquire us for ages.

[00:02:20] So they already know this stuff anyway. So it doesn't even bother me.

[00:02:25] You know, and yeah. So yeah. Right from revenue. I mean, we went from, I mean, well, like, I don't want to, I mean, I'm sure I mentioned some of this before when we, we spoke last time, but I'll pretend as if we didn't for new viewers or whatever.

[00:02:39] But there was a time in which we were, you know, more stodgy, traditional MSP, almost more consulting firm, because a lot of people don't realize if they haven't been in the industry a long time, MSPs were born from productization of consulting.

[00:02:55] And somebody wrote a book or somebody wrote some playbook on how to have more consistent revenue and just how to turn the volatility of professional services into something that's far more predictable, et cetera.

[00:03:12] And every professional services industry at some point in time has tried this. Back in the day, law firms tried this with subscriptions.

[00:03:17] There was actually, you know, 30 years ago, 20 years ago, there was, you pay monthly like an insurance for legal, you know, and that was their idea.

[00:03:26] And then branding companies have started to have fixed rate projects, you know, where it's like you pay 50 grand and they'll go through a branding exercise for you.

[00:03:34] And here's what the deliverables be, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right.

[00:03:37] And so at some point in time, somebody said, well, let's take this consulting and let's make it subscription.

[00:03:44] Let's make it a fixed cost.

[00:03:45] You'll pay for unlimited support or you'll pay a fixed amount per month and we'll count how many devices you have and all this sort of stuff.

[00:03:51] And around the time that that started to kind of come to fruition, this would have been mid early 2000s.

[00:03:59] It was kind of like the heyday of this, at least for the West Coast.

[00:04:03] I kind of saw that and said, well, that doesn't seem like the right direction to go because technology was getting more complex, not easier.

[00:04:11] There was becoming a divide between the day to day technology is getting easier because the people are more born into it.

[00:04:19] They're more comfortable with it.

[00:04:20] So like maybe setting up, you know, back then they didn't even have iPhones, but maybe getting your email on in Outlook because auto discover was being created or whatever.

[00:04:29] God, I'm aging myself.

[00:04:30] But let's say that was coming out.

[00:04:32] Now I don't need you to set up Outlook.

[00:04:33] I just type in my email.

[00:04:34] It discovers the record.

[00:04:35] It creates the own Outlook profile.

[00:04:36] But for certain things like getting this janky app installed on my machine that requires setting some registry edit, you know, whatever.

[00:04:43] I need you for that, blah, blah, blah.

[00:04:44] But then also virtualization came out.

[00:04:46] Complex networking came out.

[00:04:48] Having multiple, you know, connections and having the balance between them and failover, all these things.

[00:04:52] So it was like a big divide between like your generic IT dude or dudette, you know, kind of, you know, was becoming commoditized.

[00:05:02] Like the one sysadmin, the term sysadmin kind of is a term you don't hear anymore.

[00:05:07] You know, like, you know, but back then it was like you had the IT person.

[00:05:10] They did everything.

[00:05:11] I know.

[00:05:12] You wanted to be the sysadmin.

[00:05:13] Yeah, you wanted to be the sysadmin.

[00:05:15] And if you're the sysadmin, you might have been helping somebody with their laptop one day and setting up routers next and all that.

[00:05:21] But what I saw was, you know, going the route of like this commoditization of it, this low price fixed everything.

[00:05:27] Well, I said, well, the clients I want don't want that.

[00:05:31] They want things done correctly.

[00:05:32] They have more complex needs.

[00:05:34] And so when I left, I started this company that did more traditional consulting for finance firms.

[00:05:41] And we would do over-the-top things because these companies would want to be doing video conferencing in the early 2000s.

[00:05:46] And so they would need like point-to-point lines and all this sort of stuff.

[00:05:49] And so I went the hourly route and said, I don't want to go that route.

[00:05:53] And so that said, as time went on, my brand kind of deviated from the way the world started to build business-to-business brands.

[00:06:01] Because now they were very inviting.

[00:06:04] And it was, you've got to remember, when you're selling business-to-business, you're selling person-to-person.

[00:06:08] There is no such thing as a business.

[00:06:10] Business is a collection of people making decisions.

[00:06:12] And they have their own personas and personalities.

[00:06:15] And my brand started to feel like it was way too handshaky and whiteboards and business suits.

[00:06:21] And it was called like Technology Strategy Group at the time and shortened to like TSG.

[00:06:25] And it was just horrible.

[00:06:27] Three-name, three-letter acronym.

[00:06:29] And I said, I'm going to throw all that out.

[00:06:31] And so we started from scratch with a whole new brand and called it Appliancy.

[00:06:36] And in that process, what was happening was all of the physical assets that resided on site were becoming virtual assets that were leased.

[00:06:45] Or virtualization was making the meat and potatoes of consulting in the traditional way become far less lucrative because you couldn't make much on product anymore.

[00:06:55] Not only that, channels were becoming really gray area.

[00:06:59] So a challenge back then might have been that Dell was beating you on pricing, even though you were a partner that did $500,000 a quarter with them.

[00:07:06] And you're selling on Amazon, let's say.

[00:07:08] And you're like, customers are coming to you and say, I can get it on Amazon directly from Dell for $250.

[00:07:12] Why are you trying to sell it to me for $200?

[00:07:14] And Dell's quoting you $300 retail.

[00:07:16] And you're like, so we kind of saw that.

[00:07:18] But we also said, like, the act of, like, driving on site and swapping backup tapes or trying to massage an EDB back to a running state at 2 in the morning, if you ever worked at the exchange back in the day, just didn't seem like you were creating value.

[00:07:32] The value that you wanted to create was uptime.

[00:07:34] That was the value.

[00:07:35] The value of fixing things when they're broken.

[00:07:37] Nobody goes, I'm going to go get value from the dealership by fixing the car.

[00:07:41] I get the value by never having to go through that experience.

[00:07:43] And so we saw this opportunity to put everything in the cloud and then start leasing back Exchange, Active Directory, sending private lines up and down Sand Hill Road.

[00:07:56] And as we were doing that, it was kind of like the first step towards what was going to become public cloud.

[00:08:01] Keep in mind, Amazon didn't really exist yet in that state.

[00:08:04] It was all kind of new stuff.

[00:08:05] But we got to this point where we saw that the whole finance world started to do what we were doing.

[00:08:11] And everyone was doing private cloud.

[00:08:12] And then the public cloud came out and everybody was saying, public cloud's scary.

[00:08:16] No security.

[00:08:17] It's for broke people.

[00:08:19] Like little startup companies do that.

[00:08:21] We got money.

[00:08:22] We're finance companies.

[00:08:23] We can afford the Exchange server and the $20,000 and VMware licensing and whatever.

[00:08:27] And I said, well, that's not going to last forever.

[00:08:31] So we quickly pushed to pure public cloud.

[00:08:34] And we started looking around for solutions like Okta and others that were for enterprise only and figuring out how to make them bite-sized for smaller companies.

[00:08:41] And I remember every other competitor of ours was still writing blogs about how public cloud is crap.

[00:08:45] It's not secure.

[00:08:46] Don't do it.

[00:08:47] You're an idiot if you do it.

[00:08:48] And we were the only ones saying, we're doing it.

[00:08:51] You know, we're doing it.

[00:08:53] And so at that time, we switched our brand, too, to be very cloud-focused, public cloud-focused, very different.

[00:08:59] So we went from like 10 employees when we did that and relaunched the company to within like a year, we were 30.

[00:09:06] And then the next year, we were like, I don't know, 60, 70, then 120, 140.

[00:09:11] So we kind of – and we were already in business for 10 years at this point.

[00:09:15] So it was not like we were new.

[00:09:17] 10 years, 8 years of the grind of two or three people as the size of our company to then rebranding, relaunching, doing everything differently.

[00:09:24] And then over the next five years, we scaled to I think our peak was like 140.

[00:09:29] Today, we're about 195, somewhere in that range.

[00:09:34] We serve a very volatile market, life sciences, biotech, finance.

[00:09:39] You know, so we've been pretty hard by all the volatility in the market.

[00:09:42] We've had to adjust our ambitions, our investments.

[00:09:46] You know, so it's been a little hard for the last two and a half years.

[00:09:49] But, you know, I'll tell you, through that two and a half years, you know, you really get – you have to focus on like the principles and the basics.

[00:09:58] And the growth can mask a lot of the problems.

[00:10:01] And so to have a lot of, you know, cash and growth that we had, you know, it was like every little detail didn't really matter.

[00:10:11] It was like, you know, just focus on getting the solutions to the customer, focus on these new opportunities.

[00:10:16] And then when obviously the economy switched and we went from like, I don't know, 80% growth in 2022 or 2021 or whatever to like 10% growth or 20% growth the next year, it was like, okay, now all this matters.

[00:10:27] You know, and that's when we had to start like really paying attention to, you know, who we are hiring, what roles we were investing in, how we were measuring things.

[00:10:36] We started investing heavily in data to make sure because at the size that we are now, it's really about, you know, an analogy or a metaphor would be like counting calories and macros.

[00:10:47] You know, like the difference between 100 grams of protein and 120 grams of protein or 130, if you're at a low body fat percentage and you're working out hard, it's pretty meaningful over a long period of time.

[00:10:56] But if you're dirty bulking and don't care, which is what we kind of did, it didn't matter.

[00:11:01] And so now that's where we are and data has been key to that, knowing how we're doing in every aspect down to the percentile.

[00:11:09] Hey guys, today's episode is sponsored by Servocity.

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[00:11:46] So there's a lot there to unpack.

[00:11:48] Let me try to break down a few of those.

[00:11:51] Crazy growth most people would love to have.

[00:11:54] Amazing.

[00:11:55] What I also love about the story, right, is the years and years and years of grinding at two or three.

[00:12:01] And then, you know, it's like you crack the code.

[00:12:04] And after that many years of growth, I think I would be pushing for growth.

[00:12:08] I mean, just to keep up with that level of growth.

[00:12:10] That's what I would be doing.

[00:12:11] And also probably pretty, I don't know if you were, but I'd probably be pretty cocky and arrogant after going from that to that.

[00:12:16] And, you know, thinking I had all of a sudden figured it out.

[00:12:19] Oh, yeah.

[00:12:20] Yeah, it's a humbling experience.

[00:12:22] It's a humbling experience.

[00:12:23] But, you know, to go from like what felt like an unstoppable beast to, you know, having the average growth of an MSP, which might be 10 to 20% year over year.

[00:12:35] But everything is within the context.

[00:12:37] You know, everything has to be graded on a scale.

[00:12:40] And early on when economies are impacted, most people don't want to pay attention to the macro.

[00:12:46] They ignore the macro.

[00:12:47] But then as it like goes on for a year or two, then suddenly people accept the macro.

[00:12:52] And so you have to kind of grade on a scale.

[00:12:54] And I talk to the biggest, you know, competitors of ours frequently.

[00:12:57] It's another thing is, you know, when you get to a certain level, you realize there's more than enough growth to go around.

[00:13:03] And you don't really compete with competitors per se.

[00:13:07] You know, you're not after each other.

[00:13:09] You just it's $143 billion market.

[00:13:12] And so oftentimes you're kind of in your corner and you overlap 10% or something.

[00:13:16] And that's OK.

[00:13:17] It's more important to talk with them to understand, you know, what's working and what isn't, what they are experiencing.

[00:13:22] And, you know, it's not as competitive as one thinks.

[00:13:25] You're competitive when you're small, you know, which is so funny.

[00:13:28] When you're really small, you're just so competitive with everything.

[00:13:31] But then you get to a certain level and you realize it's not necessarily zero sum.

[00:13:36] And there's 20,000 of us and you don't have any secrets.

[00:13:40] And the irony is that when you get to a certain size and you do start talking to these other competitors, you don't talk about your stack.

[00:13:46] You don't talk about, you know, the industries you serve in whatever.

[00:13:49] You start really focusing on like the habits and the macros that really are not specific to an MSP.

[00:13:56] This is running a business, which would be like, what's the hiring like right now?

[00:13:59] What's, you know, what's the sentiment of employees right now?

[00:14:02] What is, you know, this?

[00:14:03] What is that?

[00:14:04] And those things are really just kind of universal to any company.

[00:14:07] And I know a lot of people that run different size companies.

[00:14:09] And we never talk about what we do.

[00:14:11] We talk about what we're experiencing with the core concepts of like hiring talented people, attracting talented people, meeting their expectations, communicating their expectations, expectations.

[00:14:22] You know, like what to deal with, like the market and inflation and all that sort of stuff.

[00:14:27] So, yeah.

[00:14:28] Yeah, it's been a humbling experience.

[00:14:31] But I think it's necessary.

[00:14:33] You know, I think, you know, going through these sorts of experiences of rapid growth means next time you do it, you might make smarter investments.

[00:14:40] You might be more disciplined with certain areas.

[00:14:42] Because, you know, no business owner is going to stack away millions and millions of dollars to pay payroll if the demand drops 40%.

[00:14:51] Like that's not, I think that's where first people's mind goes is like, oh, man, if we had been more disciplined and blah, blah, blah, we would have the resources to retain all these people.

[00:15:00] And it's like, man, you wish you could.

[00:15:01] But it wouldn't really make logical sense to be like, well, we lost 20% of our business, but we're going to keep a bunch of people on the bench.

[00:15:08] They don't want to sit on the bench either.

[00:15:11] So, you know, it's more or less about like making investments that, you know, protect your downside when things get ugly, which means maybe a broader line of business offerings that you might do or having something to invest in that can drive outputs when needed.

[00:15:30] Take advantage of the market.

[00:15:31] If the market goes down and the competitors didn't have that money stacked away, now you have something that they might not and you can do something that they may not be able to do.

[00:15:39] But, of course, when you're rapid growth, oftentimes you are borrowing from yourself to pay for your future self.

[00:15:45] Because every hire you make, every client you take on has delayed revenue.

[00:15:49] It has delayed outcomes.

[00:15:50] And so what ends up happening is you have to hire three people to serve the five, seven clients that are coming on in the next two weeks.

[00:15:56] And you are constantly doing that.

[00:15:57] And then it's like musical chairs.

[00:16:00] Yeah.

[00:16:00] Now there's 10 more clients not coming in, but you had been hiring in preparation for that because you had years of data of that.

[00:16:05] And so that's kind of something you learn.

[00:16:07] And, you know, when things get heated, you start to pay attention.

[00:16:11] They're like, this can't be sustainable.

[00:16:13] Yeah.

[00:16:14] But yet we all get caught every time.

[00:16:16] I'm 43 years old.

[00:16:17] I've been through this three times.

[00:16:18] You'd think by now that you would know when the market is heated.

[00:16:22] And yet we all get a little bit delusional during it.

[00:16:25] It becomes the new normal, right?

[00:16:27] It does.

[00:16:28] It does.

[00:16:28] I mean, it's like boiling a frog.

[00:16:30] You know, the market doesn't heat up overnight.

[00:16:32] It takes years and years and years and you become accustomed to it.

[00:16:35] And then you don't even realize you're the frog that's being boiled.

[00:16:38] But yeah, that was a very humbling experience.

[00:16:42] You know, but I think it was one, if there's one thing that I love is the best entrepreneurs really roll up their sleeves when everything goes wrong.

[00:16:53] They're willing to take more risks.

[00:16:55] They're willing to take more risks.

[00:17:24] And then you're willing to take more risks.

[00:17:25] And so your risk kind of shifts.

[00:17:26] And then entrepreneurs really like that because it's also easier to communicate that to the company.

[00:17:30] Because now the company sees that things aren't working and they're more willing to take that risk and make those changes.

[00:17:35] So we've done a lot of changing in the last, you know, two years because of that.

[00:17:40] You know, launching additional brands, changing our pricing structures, changing how we, you know, sell our technology.

[00:17:47] We used to be like a one SKU company.

[00:17:48] Now we're like a four SKU company, getting into different specialized services, broadening our scope of the type of things we'll do for certain clients as opposed to being really narrow.

[00:17:58] Some of that comes with just being sizable.

[00:18:01] If you just want to sell one product, like one cup of coffee, that's the best way to get a business off the ground.

[00:18:06] But once you have a line out the door and you want to launch another location, another location, weird customers start showing up and saying, well, this is BS.

[00:18:13] They only sell coffee.

[00:18:14] I also want a Danish.

[00:18:15] Yeah.

[00:18:15] And then you succumb to their requests.

[00:18:18] So then you're like, all right, we've got enough people wanting to Danish with this too.

[00:18:21] All right, we'll sell a Danish and coffee, you know, and eventually that starts to determine shittification.

[00:18:27] But, you know, like eventually you get to this point where it's like, well, now people are confused because you sell lollipops, you sell Danishes, you sell sandwiches, you sell frappe chapitinos with sugar on top and coffee too.

[00:18:38] And then all of a sudden your core crowd leaves and goes to that other place that sells just one thing, the cup of coffee.

[00:18:43] The world will always do that.

[00:18:45] There's no way around that.

[00:18:47] But, you know, but that's the cycle.

[00:18:49] And so we're at that point now where we're like, we have enough people asking for Danishes.

[00:18:52] And so we're starting to like broaden our spectrum of what we do.

[00:18:55] And it's easier to do that right now because people are like, we got to do more for growth.

[00:18:58] We want to do more.

[00:18:59] We want to grow even in this economy.

[00:19:01] And so you kind of grow like this as opposed to like this.

[00:19:06] Tell me about the challenges in managing expectations with your team when you had such a rocket ship.

[00:19:13] It's so easy to do.

[00:19:15] People buy on to rocket ship, right?

[00:19:17] Managing expectations.

[00:19:20] Well, first of all, people are inherently impatient.

[00:19:23] It's just the human nature.

[00:19:25] I think one of the strengths of pliancy, which, you know, generally comes from the strength of the founder or leadership or others that it distills down.

[00:19:33] But we are patient, persistent people for the most part.

[00:19:38] Certainly I am in leadership.

[00:19:39] Like when I measure a goal, I go and do the research to see what the median is, you know, to achieve that.

[00:19:45] Like if I want to hit a certain weight, if I want to learn a language, you know, I'll look it up.

[00:19:49] Find out, oh, it's about a thousand hours to learn Spanish.

[00:19:52] Okay.

[00:19:52] I'm no different.

[00:19:54] I'm not going to achieve it in 200.

[00:19:55] I'm not going to achieve it in 100.

[00:19:57] It's going to be 200, 500, 1,000.

[00:19:59] Okay.

[00:20:00] How much time can I spend per day?

[00:20:01] I can spend an hour or two.

[00:20:03] How many days?

[00:20:04] Five days.

[00:20:04] I'll do the math and then I'll set my expectations.

[00:20:07] I say, okay, in about two years, I should be fluent.

[00:20:09] And then I measure that against that.

[00:20:13] And it's so simple, but for whatever reason, every person that wants to diet or do anything goes, I want to lose 50 pounds by next week.

[00:20:21] And if I measure calories, I guess it's 3,600 calories in a pound.

[00:20:24] Okay.

[00:20:24] I'll do the math.

[00:20:25] I just will eat one raisin per day for the next month and I should get there.

[00:20:29] Right.

[00:20:29] But yet there's all this information.

[00:20:31] And there's millions of people that have done these things and they'll all tell you, an experienced person will tell you it's far more difficult than it's the whole, whatever that concept is around.

[00:20:40] Like the less, you know, the smarter you think you are.

[00:20:42] You know, and so over time, we've just gotten really good as a company.

[00:20:46] I have, uh, I have as an individual talking to myself, gotten really good at setting my expectations.

[00:20:51] You know, like it's going to take a couple of years to get to this.

[00:20:53] And why do I believe that?

[00:20:55] Um, and I think where, when you have hyper growth is that kind of goes out the, out the window because somebody's typical career trajectory might be that for the first three years of their career, they might get substantial 20, 30, 40% pay raises every year for the first three years.

[00:21:09] Because they're quickly learning enough skills to be competitive, but then there's diminishing returns after that.

[00:21:15] Yeah.

[00:21:15] It might take you 10 years of doing something to get from, you know, a manager level to a VP level, you know, but it only takes you about two years to get from like the junior individual to like, you know, the, the, the senior, you know?

[00:21:28] And, um, when you have hyper growth, that gets even shrunk even more because there's people, companies will take more risks.

[00:21:35] They have to, the market's too competitive to find somebody out there.

[00:21:37] We can't get applicants.

[00:21:38] We want to promote within.

[00:21:39] We need something.

[00:21:40] You're pretty good.

[00:21:40] You know, you're doing great.

[00:21:41] You've met all expectations.

[00:21:43] We're going to promote you and blah, blah, blah.

[00:21:44] And so like, there's this huge, like what's happening to you as an individual and hyper growth is also happening to the company was, which is it a normal company might grow 10 to 20% year over year.

[00:21:53] Suddenly you're growing 50 to 80.

[00:21:54] Your own expectations get skewed.

[00:21:56] You're like, well, why wouldn't we next year?

[00:21:58] Grow 50 to 80.

[00:21:59] Right.

[00:22:00] Did last two or three, the data shows we would, right?

[00:22:03] Um, you know, but that's obviously not sustainable and realistic.

[00:22:06] And so I think it's hard to set the expectations and meet them when you might say it's going to take you two to three years to get from this position to business, this position, but then you're seeing everyone around you and you just got it in a year.

[00:22:17] And so it kind of creates this fog.

[00:22:19] And I would say over the last two years, I think real reality has began to set back in for not just business owners, but employees and everyone else.

[00:22:25] Okay.

[00:22:26] Promotions every six months are not realistic.

[00:22:28] Um, you know, it's not a, it's not an employee's market anymore.

[00:22:33] Now, now it's a company's market and I'm competing with 500 app.

[00:22:36] We put a job out yesterday, two days ago, we had like 480 applicants in the first like day.

[00:22:41] Um, you know, whereas that might've been 200, two years ago.

[00:22:44] Um, you know, so it's more competitive.

[00:22:46] So expectations need to be reset.

[00:22:48] So now where we are on everything is, you know, let's get back to like, what is typical, right?

[00:22:53] Like how long might you need to do this particular role?

[00:22:55] How many hours of this role?

[00:22:57] What, what are the expectations?

[00:22:58] Um, in, I think naturally as a manager, as a friend, you always want to kind of hype people up.

[00:23:06] Um, and so you might say things like, I bet in a year you could get to this.

[00:23:09] If you keep this work up, I mean, you're killing it.

[00:23:11] You can get here.

[00:23:12] Um, but it's like a 50, 50 shot.

[00:23:14] And the irony is if they hit it, they go, oh great.

[00:23:17] If they don't, then they kind of blame you.

[00:23:20] And one of the reasons they blame you is because you set the expectation.

[00:23:24] You said you're doing this.

[00:23:25] And if you're doing this, then you will likely achieve this in this period.

[00:23:28] Um, and when they don't, it's odd.

[00:23:31] In most cases, they, they blame you.

[00:23:34] And that's because you're the one with all the information.

[00:23:36] You're the one with the authority and the power to make it.

[00:23:38] So you told me I was doing the right thing.

[00:23:40] So, you know, for me now, I'm all about like telling you this is gonna be the worst experience

[00:23:44] of your life.

[00:23:44] This is going to take years to accomplish this.

[00:23:47] It's going to be really, really painful.

[00:23:48] And if it's not, you're really pleased.

[00:23:51] And if it is, you're like, well, at least I was told that.

[00:23:54] And, you know, I think that's something that, that, um, I generally have been really good

[00:24:00] about doing with myself, but it's really hard to do with somebody else.

[00:24:04] You know, like, it's really hard to be like, Damien, you're an amazing person.

[00:24:08] Um, you know, like you're really working hard.

[00:24:10] You're, you're hitting all the goals.

[00:24:11] So, you know, you're doing phenomenal work.

[00:24:12] Um, you know, it's probably going to be two years for you to get that promotion.

[00:24:16] And meanwhile, you're thinking, I thought there's only going to take a year.

[00:24:19] And as an employer, you're like, oh crap, they're going to leave.

[00:24:21] I just told them it might take two years to achieve this goal and they want it in a year.

[00:24:25] Our expectations aren't aligned.

[00:24:27] They're going to leave.

[00:24:27] And believe it or not, that's not generally how it works.

[00:24:30] Um, you know what I mean?

[00:24:32] So naturally tendency as a company, as a manager, as an individual is to over, over promise

[00:24:38] and under deliver.

[00:24:39] Um, and it's just going back to those basics of just under promise and over deliver.

[00:24:44] And I, ironically enough, if you tell somebody something is going to be mediocre and it is

[00:24:49] mediocre, oftentimes they're okay with that happy.

[00:24:51] But if you tell them it's going to be amazing and it's mediocre, then they're not happy.

[00:24:55] So, you know, really being honest with those expectations is really important.

[00:24:58] And I think that leads into the next part of this, which is when you set expectations realistically,

[00:25:03] you're empowering the employee to make educated decisions.

[00:25:07] And I think that that is really important.

[00:25:09] Like it's really important that they understand and are able to make decisions, um, for themselves

[00:25:15] with realistic information.

[00:25:18] Because, um, if you do give them that and they make a decision to leave, it's on their own

[00:25:23] accord.

[00:25:24] And oftentimes you maintain a great relationship with them or they still see you, the company

[00:25:28] or the experience is a positive one.

[00:25:30] Um, versus when you over promise or over, you know, set those expectations, say, oh, you

[00:25:36] could do this in a year.

[00:25:36] And then they don't, you might have a different experience.

[00:25:39] And oftentimes people don't use the word expectations.

[00:25:42] They use the word lied.

[00:25:43] They lied to me.

[00:25:45] That's right.

[00:25:46] You know, and that's a powerful word.

[00:25:48] Um, and so, you know, that's something where I've just gotten better.

[00:25:51] I mean, my leadership, I'm much more comfortable with the people I work directly with.

[00:25:54] If you ask any one of them, they'll tell you that I consistently tell them everything

[00:25:58] is going to take longer than they think.

[00:25:59] It's going to be more painful than they think.

[00:26:00] And they're going to get less out of it than they think.

[00:26:02] Um, and they consistently over execute and do exceptional.

[00:26:07] Um, and when they don't, they, they, the expectations were met.

[00:26:10] Um, but that doesn't always trickle down.

[00:26:13] A new manager tends to never do that.

[00:26:14] A new manager always is like, we're going to get you that raise.

[00:26:17] We're going to get you what you need.

[00:26:18] You know, all we have to do is just do this.

[00:26:20] Um, they're a bit of the hype man.

[00:26:22] Um, and, and works great when it works, blows up in your face when it doesn't.

[00:26:28] Uh, so that's something I've learned.

[00:26:29] And that also comes from anyone that's growing their company.

[00:26:32] Maybe they're getting from 10 to 20 people.

[00:26:33] They're going to start introducing managers.

[00:26:35] Yeah.

[00:26:36] Have fun.

[00:26:37] Uh, introducing managers, managers complicates everything.

[00:26:41] Um, you know, cause they all add their own personality, their own biases, their own

[00:26:46] everything to everything.

[00:26:48] And then, um, you know, everyone has different experiences in the company and trying to align

[00:26:52] all the managers to give similar experiences is, you know, very, very challenging.

[00:26:56] Um, and that's something that starts to happen when somebody gets, you know, above 10, 15 employees.

[00:27:01] And then when you get to a hundred, you've got layers of that.

[00:27:03] Um, and so, yeah, that's the complexity then becomes all about management and communication.

[00:27:08] How do you, how do you go from such boom times to such real times?

[00:27:13] And you probably have some folks that are like, let's just go for it.

[00:27:17] Let's shoot for the moon.

[00:27:18] Let's, you know, push on sales and marketing.

[00:27:20] Let's do these.

[00:27:23] And I imagine there's still this, we need to have some optimism.

[00:27:27] We're still going to grow, but not, maybe not at that pace.

[00:27:31] So how do you do that without maybe some of them feeling like they didn't get what they

[00:27:36] wanted because you didn't double down and bet it all in black.

[00:27:38] And then you have the other parts of the team that are feeling like you're just gaslighting

[00:27:41] them.

[00:27:41] I was, that's the word I was going to use Damien, because that's what they feel like

[00:27:46] your optimism, projecting your optimism, my optimism onto other people.

[00:27:52] Um, you might think like, I'm trying to show that there is a potential and that we could

[00:27:57] achieve this and that things are going okay.

[00:27:59] And let's look at the bright side and everything else.

[00:28:01] Um, I used to think that that optimism was positive and that that was a good trait to have

[00:28:07] until I started to realize that other people felt like that was gaslighting.

[00:28:12] Um, it's not, I'm not trying to convince you to feel the way I feel.

[00:28:16] I'm just communicating how I feel.

[00:28:19] And, and that I think is something I learned pretty early in when the market kind of shifted

[00:28:25] and everything changed was I was like, well, at least we have this or, Hey, we had a great

[00:28:29] week, but you know, the next week, you know, things are, might not be as great or whatever

[00:28:33] it is to just being factual.

[00:28:35] Cause I think the biggest challenge that you have is as a leader is that you want everyone.

[00:28:43] It's natural.

[00:28:44] You want everyone to feel like you do and you want everyone to have your experience.

[00:28:49] And if you're an optimist, right?

[00:28:51] Especially if you're not optimistic about what's going on.

[00:28:53] Yeah.

[00:28:54] Yeah.

[00:28:54] But what, what happens when you do that is, um, you don't let people process what they're

[00:29:00] going through, um, authentically, you know, and that to them feels like gaslighting.

[00:29:05] If I tell you, you know, I, if I tell you, Hey, we had a pretty decent week and, um, the

[00:29:10] week before that wasn't great, but you know, on the bright side, you know, at least it's

[00:29:13] not this and Hey, we're doing, we're doing pretty decent.

[00:29:16] It started to become as time went on.

[00:29:18] Um, for me, it was more like, you know, just factual, which would be like, this is how we

[00:29:22] did this week.

[00:29:23] Um, and you know, I still don't, I like started like almost being the op.

[00:29:28] I started being a pessimist, which would be like, we, we did great this week.

[00:29:31] I have no data to imply that next week we're going to do great as well.

[00:29:35] I have no data to imply this.

[00:29:37] Um, you know, I just started being really, really factually.

[00:29:41] And I think, you know, what, what kind of came out of that was, you know, working with

[00:29:45] like, you know, leadership coaches and others and stuff, you know, it was like, I cannot,

[00:29:50] I cannot control how you feel.

[00:29:52] Um, I, if you're unhappy, you know, and I want you to be happy.

[00:29:58] Um, I can't change that for you.

[00:30:00] You know, I can't change that for you.

[00:30:02] And the more you try to do that, the more trouble you tend to get into, right.

[00:30:08] You know, you start over promising or you start, you know, being inauthentic or whatever it

[00:30:12] might be.

[00:30:13] Um, so I started just saying like, Hey, Damien, you might work here at Plaincy or whatever

[00:30:17] it is.

[00:30:18] You're not happy with the situation.

[00:30:19] And I'm just going to give you the facts so you can experience this situation, how you

[00:30:24] want, how you are.

[00:30:25] Um, and that you can make educated decisions about the situation on your own.

[00:30:29] Um, and that really, I think started to, to improve, um, things, you know, like believe

[00:30:36] it or not, some people started to say, all right, well then I'm out.

[00:30:39] And they started to make the right decisions for themselves instead of you like trying to

[00:30:44] convince them, um, you know, that things will be better here or that despite this, that,

[00:30:48] you know, like let them make their own decisions.

[00:30:50] You just give them the facts and let them make their own decisions.

[00:30:53] Um, and that feels weird because that's not how you build a company, right?

[00:31:01] When you build a company that's zero to 10, that's zero to 15, it's the polar opposite

[00:31:06] of that.

[00:31:06] You are a hype man all day.

[00:31:08] You are drinking your own Kool-Aid.

[00:31:10] You are just on cloud nine and you look for people that want to be in that.

[00:31:18] They want to be delusional sitting on a milk crate talking about how you're going to build

[00:31:21] a hundred million dollar spaceship that goes to the moon.

[00:31:24] Well, in the beginning it's, it's zero to one, right?

[00:31:28] It's impossible.

[00:31:29] So that you need those impossible people to, because in, in, without drinking your own Kool-Aid

[00:31:35] and others kind of, uh, at least in my experience, you'll never get there because it's, it's,

[00:31:41] you know, the odds are against you, right?

[00:31:43] Almost every business feels.

[00:31:44] You need delusional people in the beginning.

[00:31:45] And the way that you get those people is you're delusional about what you want to build and

[00:31:50] what you want to create.

[00:31:52] And others get attracted to that, like mosquitoes to a blue light.

[00:31:57] And you're not trying to convince them.

[00:32:00] You're just projecting it out there as, I'm going to do this and this is what we're going

[00:32:03] to do.

[00:32:03] And if we could achieve this and then somebody goes, man, I want to be a part of that.

[00:32:06] Like, that would be fun.

[00:32:07] And then you bring them to your office, which is your fricking living room, you know, and

[00:32:11] you got an Ikea desk with a crank on it, you know, cause that's your sit stand desk and

[00:32:15] a couple office Depot chairs and you're delusional as a team.

[00:32:19] Yeah.

[00:32:19] You know, talking about how you're going to build this really cool thing and how it's

[00:32:22] going to be huge and how you're going to change this industry and how you're going

[00:32:24] to be the biggest name in it all while you're not sure how you're going to make rent

[00:32:27] that month.

[00:32:28] You're, you know, skipping your own payroll to pay the other employees payroll.

[00:32:32] Um, and they know that cause they're the ones going to get the checks from the bank

[00:32:35] to deposit it.

[00:32:36] Cause you don't have enough employees to do that, but you're in this delusional thing

[00:32:39] together.

[00:32:41] And, um, it, that's required cause you will never attract talented people if you're not

[00:32:46] that.

[00:32:46] Cause if you were just super like, we're probably not gonna build much of a company

[00:32:49] here.

[00:32:49] It's probably not going to mean much.

[00:32:50] We're not really trying to do anything too crazy.

[00:32:53] Then the, then those types of people just aren't going to be attracted to that.

[00:32:56] But once you get to a certain level, a hundred people and you've got all these mechanisms

[00:32:59] and things moving and blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:33:01] That doesn't work anymore.

[00:33:03] You know, to some degree that really doesn't work anymore.

[00:33:05] And you can do that in like isolated environments.

[00:33:07] Like maybe you do that with just somebody in leadership that like is building something

[00:33:10] or you have that rapport with or whatever it is, but like, you have to kind of contain

[00:33:13] that, um, you know, to some degree, um, because otherwise you can't communicate clearly

[00:33:18] to your employees.

[00:33:19] Cause if you're always dreaming about how big it's going to be and how are you going to do this,

[00:33:22] now you're going to change that, then, you know, by the time it gets through the three

[00:33:25] to four layers to everyone in the company, they're confused.

[00:33:28] I thought we were doing this, but now we're doing that.

[00:33:30] Wait, we're going to the moon.

[00:33:31] I thought we were building electric cars, right?

[00:33:33] Like whatever it is, you know, it, so that was something where I had to go through a big,

[00:33:38] pretty big transformation of not being the kind of crazy person that I am.

[00:33:44] Keep in mind, like many people knew me from Reddit.

[00:33:46] I used to go by a name on Reddit and when we're two or three employees and I told everyone

[00:33:51] I was going to build what, what I have today, but I was only two employees and I was constantly

[00:33:56] attacked on there.

[00:33:57] You know, like you're crazy.

[00:33:58] That's not impossible.

[00:33:59] Like nobody's going to buy that.

[00:34:01] That's not how it works.

[00:34:02] Nobody does that in the industry.

[00:34:03] We all do it this way.

[00:34:03] On Reddit, that's a reception you would get.

[00:34:06] Yep.

[00:34:06] And, but I kept going there and doing it because I just, to me, it was just entertaining partially,

[00:34:12] but also like you get somebody like me, that's got that chip on their shoulder.

[00:34:16] And then you tell them they can't do something or that they're not going to do it.

[00:34:20] Oh, we'll do it.

[00:34:21] You know?

[00:34:22] And, and we love that.

[00:34:23] We feed on that.

[00:34:24] And, you know, for me, it was like such obvious things.

[00:34:27] And I looked at the reason they weren't doing it.

[00:34:29] None of them could tell me why they wouldn't do it.

[00:34:30] It was always because we don't do it or no one does it that way.

[00:34:33] And no one could even quantify it.

[00:34:35] But Patricio, uh, Patricio, uh, my, my, um, you know, director or VP, uh, sorry, of operations.

[00:34:43] He DM me on Reddit and, uh, it was like, Hey, I'm building an MSP.

[00:34:48] You're a little crazy, but I love your ideas.

[00:34:50] I want to learn more about how you think I'd like to apply it to mine.

[00:34:54] And we started chatting and eventually we got to the topic of coffee.

[00:34:59] And turns out we lived a couple, like maybe two miles from each other and we had no clue.

[00:35:03] And so we went and got coffee together.

[00:35:05] My favorite coffee shop was a client of his.

[00:35:08] And so we met together and I pitched him all the crazy things I wanted to do.

[00:35:12] And he said, well, I'm shutting down my MSP.

[00:35:14] I want to join you.

[00:35:16] But I never asked him to join.

[00:35:18] I never was trying to recruit him.

[00:35:19] I was just like, I was, like I said, I was that blue light.

[00:35:22] He was the mosquito.

[00:35:23] Um, and to this day, he's still with us and he started as a junior consultant.

[00:35:27] He's now VP of operations seven years later or so, something like that.

[00:35:31] Um, incredibly talented individual.

[00:35:33] Um, but if I had been calculated and reserved and whatever, he wouldn't have been interested.

[00:35:39] He certainly never would have DM me.

[00:35:41] Um, but today he might not, or others might not want to join that version of me.

[00:35:45] If you have a hundred people and they're all confused and you know, so that's been the

[00:35:49] biggest learning experience for me is like, as you grow and change,

[00:35:52] I don't play with Legos anymore.

[00:35:54] I kind of do on occasion.

[00:35:56] I'll build a Lego set, but you get the point, you know, like you, I don't want to ride around

[00:35:59] on a little like push tricycle anymore.

[00:36:01] Well, why, why did I enjoy it then?

[00:36:03] Now I don't enjoy it now.

[00:36:04] Like you have to adapt and change and grow and that your leadership style must as well.

[00:36:10] How much do you think is because of the, the economic times we're in now, right?

[00:36:14] The big change versus joining a five or 10 person company versus a hundred person company.

[00:36:21] Maybe for different levels of stability or.

[00:36:25] It's a little bit of both, right?

[00:36:27] Like even today there are startups out there with delusional founders and delusional co-founders

[00:36:32] talking about how they're going to use AI to do X, Y, Z or whatever it might be.

[00:36:36] Um, you know, and I think that's still a requirement.

[00:36:39] Once again, nobody's going to join a company that sets out to do a mediocre thing at a mediocre

[00:36:44] pace in a, in a predictable way.

[00:36:46] Like that's just, you know, like, cause there's an inherent risk enjoying a startup to begin

[00:36:50] with.

[00:36:51] So why would you want to take the risk of the company being gone in a year for an experience

[00:36:55] you could have that's equal at a company that's got 10,000 employees.

[00:36:58] Right.

[00:36:58] So like there's that ecosystem of balance there.

[00:37:00] But what I, what I think in terms of like my change, you know, to me, it feels like you

[00:37:07] make the biggest growth when you're forced to, you know?

[00:37:10] And so my biggest growth has always been when I had nothing to lose.

[00:37:16] Um, and that's when you're willing to say, okay, it's time.

[00:37:19] I have to, you could go through a health scare.

[00:37:21] So many people become the healthiest they've ever been the minute after they find out that

[00:37:25] they have a health scare, you know, or whatever it is, you know?

[00:37:28] And so for us, that's kind of like a health scare.

[00:37:29] We go through this thing and we go, we're not, you know, we're not invincible.

[00:37:33] Um, and you know, there are things that we weren't doing efficiently and, um, we have

[00:37:38] to change, we have to adapt and we can't just be this crazy company that's just, you

[00:37:43] know, got incredibly talented people.

[00:37:46] We have to also like build process and, you know, blah, blah, blah.

[00:37:49] So it's been a little bit of, that's the catalyst, you know, the kind of economic

[00:37:53] change was the catalyst that, that forced the discipline.

[00:37:57] Um, and you know, that's kind of now where we are.

[00:38:00] And I was telling you earlier, you know, the, the biggest challenge, like going from

[00:38:04] like 40% to 15% body fat or 10% body fat is when you go from 40 to 30, it might just

[00:38:10] mean cutting out Coca-Cola or mochas, but to go from 30 to 20 means now you have to count

[00:38:15] your calories to go from 20 to 15 means you have to do all of that.

[00:38:18] Plus now you have to count your macros, you know, et cetera, and your steps.

[00:38:22] And to go from like 15 to like 10, all of that, plus you got to weigh your food, you know,

[00:38:28] for the most part.

[00:38:29] Right.

[00:38:30] Um, and you might think, well, I can just keep running forever.

[00:38:32] That's how I get there.

[00:38:32] No, because believe it or not, you could lose muscle.

[00:38:34] If you're not doing everything correct, like an ecosystem, you might lose muscle and therefore

[00:38:37] your body fat never changes.

[00:38:39] You just lose muscle and fat linearly.

[00:38:41] Um, and that's no different than as your company grows and gets bigger.

[00:38:44] It's like what worked before, which is find talented people and hire them.

[00:38:47] Suddenly now that doesn't work at 50.

[00:38:50] Now it's like, okay, we need to train for better hiring and we need to develop the people

[00:38:53] better and we need to get them better research.

[00:38:54] Okay.

[00:38:54] All right.

[00:38:55] And then that gets more and more challenging as you add layers of management is so it's like

[00:38:59] you have to keep, and you also have to right size it too.

[00:39:02] Because the other alternative that is if I had started this company of five people and

[00:39:05] done all the things we do today, it would not be the company today.

[00:39:08] No different than if you bought a weight scale.

[00:39:10] So I'm going to walk 50,000 steps a day.

[00:39:12] I'm going to work out seven days a week.

[00:39:13] I'm going to cut out everything I eat.

[00:39:14] Like you wouldn't last a week or two.

[00:39:17] And we know that because we've all been there before in our life.

[00:39:20] Um, right.

[00:39:21] Um, you know, so it's kind of the same thing.

[00:39:23] It's like everything has to be done at the right time with the right balance.

[00:39:26] And you have to recognize when it's time to do those things.

[00:39:29] And I think this economic challenge that we've been through is really forced us to look at

[00:39:33] like each thing we were spending money on, you know, like we're spending money on this.

[00:39:38] We thought it mattered, but now we haven't spent on that in six months and it doesn't

[00:39:41] matter.

[00:39:41] We weren't spending in this.

[00:39:43] Now we are.

[00:39:43] And it's making a big difference.

[00:39:44] Okay.

[00:39:44] All right.

[00:39:45] Like you're, you're just more disciplined with that and you're measuring the outcomes

[00:39:47] of those things more.

[00:39:48] Um, so I think it's important that we go through these cycles because this is when you have

[00:39:52] an opportunity to learn.

[00:39:53] What's been besides being forced to, how, how did you get to some of this change in

[00:40:00] mindset, change in the way you're doing it?

[00:40:01] Is it a peer group?

[00:40:03] Is it a coach?

[00:40:03] Is it a book?

[00:40:05] Coach.

[00:40:06] Coaches are number one.

[00:40:07] Peer groups are number two, um, for me.

[00:40:09] Um, and when I say peer groups, I really, for one, do not believe in peer groups of people

[00:40:16] trying to accomplish the same thing in business because, um, to me, business is universal,

[00:40:23] right?

[00:40:23] It's getting talented people that want to create value for customers.

[00:40:27] Um, you know, communicating marketing.

[00:40:30] It's, it's really just core basics.

[00:40:31] Right.

[00:40:32] Um, and so I generally have peer groups that are completely different companies, completely

[00:40:38] different industries.

[00:40:39] Um, and yet, you know, we have the same problems.

[00:40:43] And so to me, I like that because it kind of shows like, Hey, you're not, you're not

[00:40:48] unique in this challenge.

[00:40:50] You can't avoid this challenge.

[00:40:52] You know, when you get to a hundred people, it doesn't matter if you're selling hot dogs

[00:40:55] or an MSP, you can have the same communication problem.

[00:40:57] Um, and I also like that different industries have different habits on how they solve them

[00:41:02] because they might talk to their peers in the same industry and they all do it this

[00:41:05] way.

[00:41:06] But this industry does it this way.

[00:41:08] Um, and I grabbed from those and I test them and apply them to my industry and, and, um,

[00:41:13] to what we do.

[00:41:14] Um, cause they all might work in different ways.

[00:41:16] Um, but yeah, I try and avoid like an MSP peer group.

[00:41:19] And instead I look for companies that are the same size as me a little bit ahead of me,

[00:41:23] ideally.

[00:41:24] Um, you know, and I find those to be the most valuable and then coach is great.

[00:41:28] If you're the type of person that has self, a lot of ability to self reflect, um, internal

[00:41:33] locus of control is what I call it.

[00:41:35] And I mean, one of the most important traits that anyone can have is internal locus of control.

[00:41:40] Um, because it gives you so much control of your life.

[00:41:42] When you start thinking of everything that I've done is because of me, suddenly you're

[00:41:46] empowered in a way that like hard to describe to anyone that doesn't have that.

[00:41:51] Like everything you look at goes, even though I didn't crash into myself, that dude ran the

[00:41:56] red light.

[00:41:57] How could I have marginalized that situation a little bit more next time?

[00:42:01] Well, I, I didn't check left and right as I went through a green.

[00:42:04] Why would I?

[00:42:05] Okay.

[00:42:05] I'll do that now in the future.

[00:42:06] Right.

[00:42:07] That might allow me to avoid that.

[00:42:08] And so like you just take control.

[00:42:10] Um, and so to me, working with a coach, if you're really good at, you know, that self

[00:42:15] realization or internal locus of control is so powerful because, um, they can hold you

[00:42:21] accountable to yourself, you know, and you can really, you know, be transparent with

[00:42:26] him, but I'm frustrated.

[00:42:27] I keep doing this stupid thing or whatever it is.

[00:42:29] So, um, working with a coach has been really, really huge for me.

[00:42:33] Um, that person is amazing.

[00:42:35] I love working with them.

[00:42:37] Um, so those are the two things that I do.

[00:42:40] Um, and you know, I, I just tell them the experiences I have and what I want to try and,

[00:42:45] and then they hold me accountable to trying it and then I share my experience and then

[00:42:48] we adjust.

[00:42:48] Um, but that's, that's been really, really helpful for me is those two things.

[00:42:52] So if you're not going to an industry peer group, do you have a recommendation of how

[00:42:56] to find the right peers or?

[00:42:58] Yeah, I would.

[00:42:59] I mean, I've moved around a lot.

[00:43:02] I've lived in Minneapolis, Northern California and Boston, New York, Austin.

[00:43:06] Um, but I joined, when I moved to Austin, I joined a group called YPO.

[00:43:11] Um, and most MSPs probably wouldn't be able to join that group from a revenue perspective,

[00:43:17] but there's a very similar group, which I've heard great things about, um, which I believe

[00:43:22] is like EO.

[00:43:23] Yeah.

[00:43:24] Yeah.

[00:43:24] Yeah.

[00:43:25] Yeah.

[00:43:25] Yeah.

[00:43:26] And I think they have lower requirements, but it's the same concept.

[00:43:29] Um, and you join what's called a forum.

[00:43:31] Usually that's the universal language they would use, which is called a forum.

[00:43:33] And you might join and there might be eight to 10 people in that forum, let's say.

[00:43:37] Um, it's usually a very safe, uh, confidential space and you share really challenging business

[00:43:42] problems with them and they're really relatable.

[00:43:45] Um, whereas like trying to share with your friends or family, like they'll all tell you

[00:43:50] to sell the business and retire.

[00:43:51] You could live on an Island, you know, blah, blah, blah.

[00:43:53] Or why don't you just go do that?

[00:43:55] Everything's so simple to them and so complex to you.

[00:43:58] Um, but when you get into one of those peer groups in somebody that's in the same boat

[00:44:02] as you gives you advice, that's opposing to your belief, then you start to really listen

[00:44:06] because they're like, I thought that too, but I was wrong.

[00:44:08] You actually can take a vacation, you know, for 10 years, I didn't take a vacation.

[00:44:12] It's like, I'm the boss.

[00:44:13] If I take a vacation, all the employers are going to think I'm lazy or then I'm taking

[00:44:16] advantage of them, blah, blah, projecting.

[00:44:17] Right.

[00:44:18] Um, you know, and it was like, then I joined this peer group and like, no, what you're

[00:44:21] actually doing is you're making them compete with your work ethic.

[00:44:25] And you're probably don't even realize that what you're doing is creating a lot of guilt.

[00:44:29] And I was like, oh God, uh, I, I thought the opposite.

[00:44:33] I thought that I would, I was feeling guilty if I didn't work harder than them.

[00:44:36] Like, you know, and then it was like eye opening.

[00:44:39] Yeah.

[00:44:39] I went on a vacation and everyone was like, it's about time.

[00:44:42] And I was like, I thought you all were going to think I was being lazy or something.

[00:44:47] Um, so yeah, I, I, I really, uh, you know, that, the EO on, um, YPO, there's plenty

[00:44:54] of other ones, um, out there, but my advice would be choose one that's hard to get into

[00:44:59] not just financially, but maybe it's a grueling interview process or it takes some time.

[00:45:03] Um, because what you really want from that group is commitment and engagement.

[00:45:08] So you want one that has like really strict attendance requirements, um, vets, vets the

[00:45:12] people well, does a lot of interviewing with the people.

[00:45:14] So you get a really quality group.

[00:45:16] Um, you know, and then hopefully in that group, it's diverse, you know, different ages,

[00:45:21] different industries, different experiences, backgrounds.

[00:45:23] Um, that has been huge for me.

[00:45:25] And the great thing about that is, um, you start to meet others in, in other industries

[00:45:29] and, and you just, it starts to really feel like you can build a peer group of others that

[00:45:33] are going through similar experiences.

[00:45:35] Me personally, no one, I really know none of my friends own businesses or, you know, do

[00:45:39] this sort of thing.

[00:45:40] So I never had an outlet for those conversations and I never felt comfortable having those

[00:45:43] conversations.

[00:45:44] And now I do.

[00:45:45] So I would advise that.

[00:45:46] Yeah.

[00:45:47] Yeah.

[00:45:47] And, uh, I love your input, but it seems like the, as you grow, there are different issues

[00:45:55] and, you know, there's a lot more 10 person businesses than a hundred person businesses.

[00:45:59] So, you know, it just, the, the, the, the people that are peers in the real sense of the

[00:46:05] word, it's there's, they're fewer and far between.

[00:46:07] Yeah.

[00:46:08] And I think it's also really important to have people that are way ahead of you, people

[00:46:12] that are behind you, um, people that are in your same size.

[00:46:15] Like the advice you might get from somebody that's got a 10,000 person company.

[00:46:19] Um, if they're really speaking about what they're doing with a 10,000 person company is

[00:46:23] probably not relatable to you, but if they talk about how they went from 100 to a thousand

[00:46:27] and you're a hundred, well, that might be really relatable.

[00:46:30] Um, I tend to, you have to really humble the crap out of yourself.

[00:46:34] Many small business owners, you know, myself included are not used to being around others

[00:46:38] that also own a small business or in the same situation.

[00:46:41] Um, and they might feel like, you know, it's some sort of like competition.

[00:46:46] Um, you know, and I think it's really important to, uh, humble yourself and, you know, seek

[00:46:53] out people that are smarter than you, people that are further along than you.

[00:46:56] Um, you, I mean, the goal is always to be the dumbest person in the room, you know, and

[00:47:02] seek out those rooms and that's where you'll learn, um, immerse yourself in that.

[00:47:07] Um, and so that's, my advice is like find people more successful than you do whatever

[00:47:11] it takes to hobnob with him.

[00:47:13] Don't, you know, like, it's not like you can't take advice from people that are not as

[00:47:17] far along as you.

[00:47:18] They have different experiences.

[00:47:19] Certainly you want all of it, but if you want to be the big cojone in the group and everyone

[00:47:24] else is trying to start their, you know, small one man business and you got a 10 man one,

[00:47:29] what are you going to learn there?

[00:47:31] You know, like, yeah, you really have to balance that out.

[00:47:35] It's the same thing, the same question, but about the coach, what would you recommend?

[00:47:41] Um, that one's hard because, um, the experiences are so different.

[00:47:48] They're unique to everybody.

[00:47:50] Um, for example, like, um, somebody like me, um, it's all about really knowing yourself

[00:47:56] and somebody like me, I'll tell a story cause I tell a lot of dumb stories, but here's the

[00:48:02] story.

[00:48:02] Um, my, my, my ex fiance and I lived in Boston together and, um, we both wanted to work out

[00:48:09] and, and we went to the gym and we got personal trainers and my, she did not like my personal

[00:48:15] trainer.

[00:48:16] She was like, I don't know why you want to see her.

[00:48:17] I don't know why you enjoy going to her.

[00:48:19] She's very cold.

[00:48:20] She measures everything you do.

[00:48:22] She doesn't make any of it fun.

[00:48:23] Um, meanwhile, her personal trainers got those little rubber feet where every toe is individual

[00:48:29] and like they're doing cartwheels down the gym and like doing like shadow boxing and like

[00:48:34] not measuring anything and like just having a ball over there.

[00:48:39] And I wouldn't last one day with that personal trainer because at the end of the day, I want

[00:48:43] to know how did I do?

[00:48:44] I want to measure that input.

[00:48:46] I want to, I want to make sure I'm progressing.

[00:48:48] I want to make sure that I'm doing everything right.

[00:48:49] And I want somebody that's going to hold me accountable to that in a way that makes me

[00:48:53] uncomfortable because I hate disappointing people.

[00:48:55] So the idea would be like, that person wants to see me achieve this goal.

[00:48:58] I don't want to disappoint them and I'll measure my progress that I want to be realistic.

[00:49:02] And so that was mine.

[00:49:04] And I had a great experience after going through three different personal trainers over years.

[00:49:06] I had the best experience with this particular one.

[00:49:09] Um, and hers, she worked with one like that once where we shared one and she didn't progress

[00:49:14] at all.

[00:49:15] She didn't enjoy it.

[00:49:15] She didn't want to go to them anymore.

[00:49:16] Um, and I worked with one like hers one day or for a couple of weeks and I didn't progress

[00:49:21] at all because he let me skip the, skip them.

[00:49:24] If I wasn't feeling good that day, I, the one that I worked with at the end that I'm talking

[00:49:28] about, right?

[00:49:28] The best results.

[00:49:29] She asked for my Google calendar, because if I told her I couldn't make one this morning,

[00:49:33] she would find a gap in my calendar and book it later that day without asking me.

[00:49:38] And I was like, and my fiance thought that was crazy.

[00:49:42] And I was like, nah, it's working.

[00:49:43] So I don't want to give anyone advice to find, I don't, you know, just make sure that you

[00:49:48] really know yourself.

[00:49:49] Like look back at all the experiences you've had learning things, um, advancing at things,

[00:49:53] enjoying things and like figure out what it is that personality or way of interacting with

[00:49:58] somebody that drives you the most to get to a goal and exploit yourself.

[00:50:02] You know, if you're the type of person that hates letting people down, then find somebody

[00:50:05] that books shit, sorry, books stuff on your calendar without asking you.

[00:50:10] And they want you to achieve a goal almost more than you want to achieve it.

[00:50:14] That's like the hack for me.

[00:50:16] You know, I find somebody that's that like wants to see me succeed and does that.

[00:50:21] And I achieve incredible things.

[00:50:22] But if I find somebody that's like super friendly and like patient and blah, blah, blah with me,

[00:50:26] I exploit myself.

[00:50:28] And I go like, oh, I don't want to go today or I'm not feeling it today or, yeah, I'm going

[00:50:32] to slack on my, you know, self, you know, learning on this.

[00:50:36] So for me, I found somebody that holds me accountable, super honest with me, um, is very

[00:50:40] invested in me, like genuinely invested in me.

[00:50:43] And that worked for me.

[00:50:44] Um, but if yours is entertaining and makes it fun and whatever, then go for that.

[00:50:50] Um, but I think that the most important thing is like really understanding and looking

[00:50:55] back historically at what has worked for you.

[00:50:57] When you've achieved a goal, what did you do?

[00:50:59] How did you do it?

[00:51:00] You know, that kind of thing.

[00:51:01] So you've talked a lot about it, but what's one of the biggest changes you've had to make

[00:51:07] in the last couple of years with the huge change with impliancy?

[00:51:11] I mean, it goes back to, uh, there's a saying, I can't remember it.

[00:51:17] You probably remember it, but it's like, you know, like ship, shipmate crew or whatever

[00:51:21] it is.

[00:51:22] Um, you know, and for anyone listening or whatever, the idea is like, you know,

[00:51:27] like you have to take care of the boat first, you know, the boat doesn't float, doesn't

[00:51:30] matter.

[00:51:31] Right.

[00:51:31] And so in the context of like the business and myself, I realized like when I was stressed

[00:51:37] out, you know, two years ago, because the rocket ship of five years was no longer a

[00:51:42] rocket ship and it was flat or whatever it was.

[00:51:44] Um, you know, and I was constantly like looking at that numbers and go, what's going on?

[00:51:48] And trying, you know, like I was just stressed out and like whatever.

[00:51:51] And I was working crazy hours every day, you know, and just, it just, I was like, I needed

[00:51:56] and I had a sick dog that kidney failure at the time.

[00:51:58] So I had to bring her to the vet like three times a week and like required a lot of care.

[00:52:03] Um, you know, and it was like, I wasn't taking care of myself.

[00:52:06] Um, and it was impacting my decision-making and like, you know, that kind of thing.

[00:52:10] And so I say in the last two years, I worked like that for like 15 years, you know, like

[00:52:15] I worked 16 hours a day, seven days a week.

[00:52:17] I had no friends, I had nothing.

[00:52:19] I just was obsessed with my clients, frankly.

[00:52:23] Um, and, and then eventually the employees too.

[00:52:26] Um, and in a way that was like unhealthy, gained the most weight I'd ever gained, was the least

[00:52:30] healthy I'd ever been, had the least amount of friendships and like didn't go on vacations.

[00:52:35] Um, and it started to impact my decision-making and my risk tolerance and like everything.

[00:52:39] And so I started really making sure like, how am I feeling?

[00:52:43] Okay.

[00:52:43] Hey, cause if, if I am not feeling great, if I'm not feeling like, you know, I'm in this

[00:52:48] and I'm enjoying it or whatever it is, then I, it's going to trickle down.

[00:52:51] So that my biggest change was like, you know, realizing I'm 43 now, I've been running this

[00:52:56] company 16 years or whatever it is.

[00:52:58] Um, I've been working, you know, suffered relationships because of it, because of how much

[00:53:02] work I did and everything.

[00:53:02] And like, now I'm like making sure I'm taken care of and like, I'm have a hobby, whether

[00:53:07] it's learning Spanish or whatever it might be.

[00:53:10] Um, so I'm feeling fulfilled and then that tends to transcend then into work.

[00:53:13] Now I communicate with people and I trust people.

[00:53:15] And, um, you know, so that's been my big learning thing is like really putting myself

[00:53:20] first for lack of better term, because if I don't, I can't put on other people's masks.

[00:53:24] I can't help other people.

[00:53:26] And yeah, Phil's really selfish to a Scandinavian.

[00:53:29] It's kind of like a foreign concept to Scandinavians.

[00:53:32] Um, you know, and Midwesterners, it's like, I'll give you all four tires off my car.

[00:53:35] If I had to, oh, don't worry.

[00:53:36] I'll walk, you know, but like, you know, it, it really is important.

[00:53:42] Um, you know, and, and so that's something I've focused on in the last, like, you know,

[00:53:46] more or so in the last six months to a year, but like certainly something I've been working

[00:53:49] on for the last two years.

[00:53:52] It's amazing.

[00:53:53] Anybody that's ever been through the rocket ship, it's fun.

[00:53:56] It's stressful.

[00:53:57] It's got its own set, but it, it's fun.

[00:54:00] And, um, but that there's economies don't last forever.

[00:54:05] And like, no, they don't.

[00:54:06] Even the fastest growing companies slow.

[00:54:08] But it's not just economies.

[00:54:10] Um, yes, economies, but it's just, it's the nature of everything.

[00:54:13] There's diminishing returns on experience.

[00:54:15] The first car you ever bought mine, 1986, old Miguel Cutlass Supreme.

[00:54:22] 19, 1988 or 86 or whatever.

[00:54:24] I was like 18 years old.

[00:54:25] I didn't get my driver's license until 18 or whatever.

[00:54:27] I thought it was the coolest experience of my life.

[00:54:30] Cloth seats, jacked up rear end.

[00:54:32] Like, oh, I was, I mean, nothing has ever matched that.

[00:54:37] Nothing.

[00:54:37] Obviously I don't drive an 88 Oldsmill Cutlass Supreme anymore.

[00:54:41] And the cars are much nicer and they have like a nav and you know, like they're nice

[00:54:45] and they start every time.

[00:54:46] And, you know, but that just nothing will ever match that experience.

[00:54:50] The headliner doesn't fall down on you.

[00:54:52] Like those days.

[00:54:52] Oh, you own one too, huh?

[00:54:53] Yeah.

[00:54:54] But, but, but yeah, like the idea is it starts to sag right in the middle, you know, but,

[00:54:59] but like the idea is like nothing will ever match that experience.

[00:55:02] And the first couple of years or even the first year of you working at any company, you know,

[00:55:08] you've or a relationship, you know, it's like you, you have this euphoria.

[00:55:13] Oh my God, this is the best person in the world.

[00:55:15] This is the best company I've ever had.

[00:55:16] Everything is amazing.

[00:55:17] Um, and that becomes like to the 10th power when you start your own company, everything

[00:55:22] is incredible.

[00:55:23] Like, I mean, your first office desk, even if you, you dedicate the spare bedroom you had

[00:55:29] suddenly put a desk in there, you go, holy crap, I have an office.

[00:55:32] You know, you start feeling like a big wig, you know, you're like, I'm going into my office

[00:55:35] and going to do work, you know?

[00:55:36] And like, you know, you're just like, this is incredible.

[00:55:39] And you get an employee and you're like, holy crap.

[00:55:40] Like somebody wants to do this with me or whatever it is.

[00:55:43] Or you land that big client.

[00:55:44] You're like, oh my God, it's a thousand dollars a month.

[00:55:46] This is huge.

[00:55:47] This is going to life changing, diminishing returns.

[00:55:51] Right.

[00:55:51] You know, and it doesn't matter what it is that exists in basically everything.

[00:55:58] And so I think recognizing that powering through that, you know, going like, this is a part

[00:56:03] of the process.

[00:56:04] This is going to happen.

[00:56:05] If you want to chase, if you want to be hedonistic about it or whatever it is that the treadmill,

[00:56:10] I mean, you can just change jobs every two years.

[00:56:12] Like most people do.

[00:56:12] Yes.

[00:56:13] You might do it for salary, which makes sense.

[00:56:14] Sure.

[00:56:14] If you want, but just know two years into that job, you might feel the same way too.

[00:56:18] But what's interesting that happens is once you get kind of past that two or three years,

[00:56:23] you start to really gain a lot of power, knowledge and experience that is specific to that company

[00:56:30] that very few at the company have.

[00:56:33] Because so many are switching every two years, every year and a half, maybe three.

[00:56:37] That's something now you're in a very elite percentile of people that have incredible experience,

[00:56:41] knowledge, whatever.

[00:56:42] And something starts to happen there where like you become like the Oracle and you know

[00:56:47] more than everybody else and you create more value than anyone else possibly can.

[00:56:51] And so like, you know, that's similar to any activity, like, you know, whether it's flying

[00:56:55] or learning an activity or hobby, it's like you have to get through the trough as they call it.

[00:56:59] And if you can get through that trough, that's where most people fail.

[00:57:02] Everyone gets that trough and then goes, I got to change everything.

[00:57:04] It's not working anymore or whatever it is.

[00:57:06] Right.

[00:57:06] But those that like power through that and just are like, this is a part of the process.

[00:57:12] Yeah.

[00:57:12] This is a part of the process.

[00:57:14] Recognize it, accept it.

[00:57:15] It's okay.

[00:57:15] You know, like go through that.

[00:57:16] But they tend to get to like another side of things that very few do.

[00:57:20] Most people get tired of a hobby once they learn that the 30, 40, 50% of it, you know,

[00:57:25] then they're like, ah, because then all of a sudden it gets hard, diminishing returns.

[00:57:28] But then all of a sudden you get to this other side where it's like, you know, so that, yeah,

[00:57:32] that that's been my, you know, experience even personally, you know.

[00:57:37] Yeah.

[00:57:37] I think you can apply that to hobby.

[00:57:38] I think you can apply that to starting a new product line.

[00:57:41] It's universal.

[00:57:42] There's all sorts of things, right?

[00:57:43] Everything in life is universal.

[00:57:44] And it seems really cool.

[00:57:45] We're all made of atoms and whatever.

[00:57:47] Like everything is universal, you know, whether it's a hobby and experience, I mean, it all

[00:57:51] relates back to the same concepts, the same ways.

[00:57:54] And that's why I'm just hyper fixated on how do you build habits?

[00:57:58] How do you, how do you measure things?

[00:58:00] Like how do you, how do you set realistic goals with expectations with yourself?

[00:58:04] And then learning how to apply those principles to everything you do because it's universal.

[00:58:09] It's really universal, you know?

[00:58:12] And that, that's something like, and then I'm a habitual learner.

[00:58:15] Like I'm just one of those people that's like gotta be learning at all times.

[00:58:19] Um, yeah, but, but yeah.

[00:58:21] So, so, uh, let me zoom out for a second and ask you not just the last couple, but all, all the time you've been building this.

[00:58:30] What's one of the big one or two lessons you felt like from building this company?

[00:58:35] Oh man.

[00:58:36] Um, I would say that the, the, the biggest lesson, um, man, I don't, as weird as it sounds, I don't know a lot of people that own a company the size of mine or even maybe 20 people or 30 people and up that would do it again.

[00:58:58] Yeah.

[00:58:59] And, and I'm telling you from experience of talking to dozens of them, they're all happy they made it.

[00:59:05] But they would not do it again.

[00:59:08] Um, and so it's just like, it gets harder and harder as you progress through life and get older and older to do dumb things.

[00:59:18] And almost all opportunity resides on the other side of something dumb.

[00:59:22] Um, you know, risk taking whatever it is.

[00:59:26] Um, yeah.

[00:59:27] And so for me, like the lesson I've had as this company has grown and whatever is like to keep kind of like asking yourself,

[00:59:35] like, am I uncomfortable?

[00:59:37] You know, am I, am I doing something uncomfortable today?

[00:59:40] Am I being uncomfortable?

[00:59:41] Am I seeking complacency?

[00:59:43] Um, you know, and make sure that you're always like building that muscle.

[00:59:48] Cause it is kind of a muscle.

[00:59:49] Um, it doesn't mean taking big risks every day or anything, but it's just like,

[00:59:53] I've seen what happens to people that start to be okay with things and, and start to be okay with the results and blah, blah, blah.

[01:00:00] And like over time they build these like, you know, ways of living.

[01:00:05] Like my buddy won't use any navigation in his car for whatever reason.

[01:00:09] It's so frustrating to be with him.

[01:00:11] I remember I was on a road trip with him.

[01:00:13] God forbid he finds this.

[01:00:15] Um, but I was on a road trip with him a couple of weeks ago and like, we got lost in Wisconsin.

[01:00:19] And, and cause he was like, I know where we're going and blah, blah, blah, blah.

[01:00:22] And cause he had built this habit.

[01:00:23] You want to learn how to hook his phone up to car plate or whatever.

[01:00:25] And, uh, next thing you know, like his son's in the back seat, you know,

[01:00:29] I'm old enough that my friends have like 18 year old sons now, 20 year old sons.

[01:00:32] Um, and his son just connects his phone to car plane and types in the address and passes go.

[01:00:36] And I said, you had car play this entire time, you know, and like, it was just like the next time we went on a, you know,

[01:00:44] he's doing a road trip around the U S right now.

[01:00:45] I'm like, are you using car plane?

[01:00:46] He's like, no.

[01:00:48] And I'm just like, why?

[01:00:49] And he can't articulate it.

[01:00:51] You know, he's like, I don't need it.

[01:00:52] I know where I'm going on.

[01:00:53] It's like, that's what happens in my opinion when like, you're just, you know, maybe it's uncomfortable to use it at first,

[01:00:58] or maybe you don't think you need it or whatever.

[01:01:00] Be uncomfortable constantly, be learning constantly because the minute you stop doing that,

[01:01:04] it feels like your mind seeks to do nothing.

[01:01:08] Like your body's goal is like, how do I do as little of everything in life as possible?

[01:01:12] And you have to like fight against that and be uncomfortable and, and just push through that stuff.

[01:01:18] Um, and that's, you know, that's been, that's been my biggest thing is I, I have to be learning something at all times.

[01:01:25] I have to be learning something.

[01:01:27] I have to be practicing something.

[01:01:29] I have to have personal goals, um, because then you start to lose purpose and, you know, that sort of thing.

[01:01:35] So that's what I like.

[01:01:37] What's one thing that you, if you could do ever that you would?

[01:01:41] Oh my God.

[01:01:43] Oh, there's so many.

[01:01:44] Um, I think during our, our five year kind of run up, um, you know, I think I would have taken more risks during that.

[01:02:00] Um, you know, that way I could have diversified the impact of a poor decision.

[01:02:06] Meaning like it would have been low, lower risk to say, what's doing a product line or let's do this thing when you have 80% growth year over year.

[01:02:13] You know, cause you'll recover from it real quickly.

[01:02:16] It's kind of like doing aerial aerobatics at 10,000 feet.

[01:02:19] Oh, got it wrong.

[01:02:20] It's okay.

[01:02:21] You got plenty of time.

[01:02:22] You do it at 2000 feet, you get it wrong.

[01:02:24] Dead.

[01:02:24] Right.

[01:02:24] So it's like the, it's much easier to recover from risk, you know, when you're in that state, but it's really hard to take risks in because the part of you is like double down on what's working.

[01:02:37] Right.

[01:02:37] But then when it doesn't work, you weren't prepared.

[01:02:40] So I would say during that period, I would have, I would have taken more calculated risks.

[01:02:44] I would have divided more of my resources towards really being intentional around, um, trying new things and building new things during that period.

[01:02:52] Right. Uh, what's a myth about running an MSP that you'd love to debunk?

[01:02:58] Oh man, there's a lot of myths.

[01:03:00] Uh, I would think that your stack matters.

[01:03:04] Don't matter.

[01:03:05] They don't care.

[01:03:06] Um, the biggest, the biggest myth is, is that the client cares anything about technology.

[01:03:13] The majority of them, the vast majority of them don't give two craps about what technology you're using, how you're using the technology.

[01:03:20] They care about outcomes.

[01:03:22] Um, and generally they're coming to you, seeing you as a utility, you know, at first.

[01:03:28] And then it's your job to communicate the value you're actually creating beyond that.

[01:03:32] Um, but usually they're not, they're not educated at the time that they come to work with you.

[01:03:36] They don't even know what they're looking for.

[01:03:37] They don't even know how to measure good.

[01:03:39] They don't even understand the technology you're using.

[01:03:40] So the idea that your tech, your stack, your, any of that matters is really rudimentary.

[01:03:46] What really, really matters is how do you communicate why they should choose you as opposed to somebody else?

[01:03:51] How do you fit their needs better?

[01:03:53] Why are you the right person or the wrong person for them?

[01:03:56] Um, and then really same goes with attracting talent to your company.

[01:04:00] It's the same concept.

[01:04:01] What's, uh, let's again, kind of zoom out.

[01:04:04] What's something, whether I don't know if this industry is changing economy, there's all kinds of new things, new tech, new, what's something or one or two things you're looking forward to?

[01:04:16] I'm looking forward to, you know, I guess I'm looking forward to getting to the point where it's specific to us, but I'll also talk about in general, but like getting to the point where we have enough data.

[01:04:31] That we can start really, really analyzing that data to, to, to do all kinds of interesting things.

[01:04:38] Like what if we were to throw AI against our data to figure out when the busiest hour is or what the most common problem is?

[01:04:46] And I know those are obvious things that are pretty easy to do as Zendesk and other things, you know, as it is, but there's so much more context when we know even more than just that.

[01:04:54] It's not just a ticket.

[01:04:55] It's not just using natural language processing on that.

[01:04:58] But I think getting to this point where like, you're always getting the right kind of work to the right kind of person at the right time.

[01:05:06] You know, I think AI will help with that.

[01:05:08] Large data sets will help with that.

[01:05:10] But getting to that point where you reach this pinnacle of efficiency, because I'm just one of those people that's like obnoxious about efficiency.

[01:05:18] But I think our businesses require it.

[01:05:20] Professional services certainly require it and larger businesses require it.

[01:05:25] As your business gets bigger, it gets more bloated, it has less gross margin, thus less net margin.

[01:05:29] And you're constantly fighting against that erosion.

[01:05:32] Because you can look at a company like Toyota and they might have like 19% margins, you know, and you're like, Jesus, how are they in business?

[01:05:39] Right.

[01:05:39] And you look at some other big companies like an Accenture or whatever, they may have like single digit margins.

[01:05:43] You know, and it's like, well, it's because there's just compounding waste in running the machine and everything as it grows.

[01:05:49] And so for me, it's like constantly finding, you know, using AI and large data sets and whatever to really find these really efficient things that you can do is like a great way to make sure that your company always has enough resources to innovate, to change.

[01:06:02] Because at a certain point, you'll get to a certain margin where you no longer have the capacity to take that risk.

[01:06:10] Because you just, you don't have the resources.

[01:06:12] It's easy to do it when you're small.

[01:06:13] You have nothing but that.

[01:06:14] No over it.

[01:06:15] Take big risks.

[01:06:15] But as you get bigger, it gets harder and harder and harder.

[01:06:18] So efficiency, AI, large data sets.

[01:06:20] That's where I'm excited.

[01:06:22] What's one book you would recommend?

[01:06:24] Atomic Habits.

[01:06:26] There's two books I recommend.

[01:06:27] And I started recommending Atomic Habits instead of the other one because I think I confused a lot of people with the other one.

[01:06:32] Okay.

[01:06:32] The two favorite books are Atomic Habits, Most Powerful Thing in the World.

[01:06:36] If you could just learn how to build habits, you're unstoppable.

[01:06:40] Number two is Diffusions of Innovation, Seventh Edition.

[01:06:45] And that's a book that Crossing the Chasm was like kind of a snippet of.

[01:06:49] Everyone's probably heard of Crossing the Chasm.

[01:06:51] It's kind of a Silicon Valley-like.

[01:06:52] It's like the Bible of Silicon Valley.

[01:06:54] But Diffusions of Innovation is like the long-form version of that, which is like understanding how innovation is adopted by people.

[01:07:01] And, you know, when the tipping point is.

[01:07:04] It just conceptually talks about how people change, really.

[01:07:08] And I think that's a fascinating book.

[01:07:10] It is a dry read.

[01:07:11] But it is a fascinating book.

[01:07:13] Those are my two favorite books.

[01:07:15] Marcus, for anybody listening that would love to reach out and connect, what's the best way to find you?

[01:07:20] Marcus at Blindsy.com.

[01:07:22] Just email me and I respond and take meetings with everybody.

[01:07:26] I've never turned down a meeting and I've never not replied to somebody.

[01:07:31] So, yeah, reach out to me.

[01:07:33] I'm always happy to chat.

[01:07:35] You know, I love everyone in the industry.

[01:07:36] I love just we're not competitors.

[01:07:40] I'm not looking to compete with anyone.

[01:07:41] I'm not going to steal anyone's ideas.

[01:07:43] And I don't hoard my own.

[01:07:45] But I think it's just it's a big industry.

[01:07:47] It's $143 billion industry.

[01:07:49] And there's 20,000 competitors.

[01:07:51] I think if we all worked in concert to understand the customers, the challenges, where the industry is going together, we could all get to a better place.

[01:07:59] Because 99% of MSPs today are just dragging and grinding.

[01:08:03] It's just a very challenging industry.

[01:08:05] It's very hard to be so segregated.

[01:08:07] So, you know, it's just a really, really, really challenging industry.

[01:08:12] And I think collectively, if more got together and whatever, joined forces, whatever it might be, I think we could really change the industry.

[01:08:21] And it doesn't have to be a grind.

[01:08:24] Make sure to take Marcus up on the generous offer.

[01:08:26] Marcus, thank you for being on MSP Minds today today.

[01:08:29] Of course.

[01:08:29] Awesome.

[01:08:30] Thanks for having me, Damian.

[01:08:30] Thank you.