From 37 to 24 Staff... And Revenue Doubled

[00:00:00] There's so much out there about AI, but unless you just dig in and you start like cloud coding, you start building agents and MCPs and figuring out how it's going to help you and figure out when it's lying to you and a bunch of different things, you have to have that experience so you can inform your customers because they want to know too. So if you talk generalities, they're not going to believe you. You have to show in depth.

[00:00:19] Hey guys, Damien Stevens, host of MSP Mindset, founder and CEO of Servosity. Today, I'm blessed to be in conversation with Brian Beilman. Brian has done something crazy. He's gone from 37 to 24 employees. For most people, that sounds like the wrong direction, but at the same time, he's doubled revenue.

[00:00:46] So if you're paying attention, the revenue per employee is dramatically bigger. Here's the craziest part. He said his team has never had more free time and capacity. This has created freedom for them to invest in the next wave of their team and in the next wave of their business. So if you want to learn the unlock, the secret to growing and having freedom from vendors and freedom from stress and freedom for your team, don't miss out on our conversation today.

[00:01:17] Brian, you're one of the rare few that I'm excited to have back on MSP Mindset for a second interview. So thank you for coming. Happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me. Yeah. I want to get right into it. You mentioned that one of your top company goals is around AI. So what is that specifically?

[00:01:39] Yeah. So, you know, I'll take a backtrack for a second. So those people who are in MSP world, people might be filling with EOS traction. So we establish company goals and out of those, we have rocks. But out of our two goals, we have one, two primary goals. One of them is to enable AI at the company level and at our client level to basically make AI.

[00:02:05] Well, there's a number of elements to it, but it's around AI implementing and embracing it culturally and using it daily. And there's lots of components to it. I could probably even talk about some of the details of that, but it's an important thing for us because our service delivery is around strategic initiatives for our customers. What's going to move the needle? What's going to help their business?

[00:02:34] And so in order for that to happen, you've got to eat your own dog food for us because, you know, as you know, there's so much out there about AI. But unless you just dig in and you start like cloud coding, you start building agents and MCPs and figuring out how it's going to help you and figure out when it's lying to you and a bunch of different things, you have to have that experience so you can inform your customers because they want to know too.

[00:03:00] So if you talk generalities, they're not going to believe you. You have to show in depth. I get the pleasure to be in build sessions with MSPs just like you building real things with AI. And the number one friction point, the number one blocker is I can't connect to all the systems. In fact, my vendor makes an MCP server or a connector or whatever they call it, yet it's read only.

[00:03:28] Another one tried it and it limited them to 100 records. How are you going to search for all the tickets when you can only get to 100? If you're tired of vendor connectors and MCP servers holding your business back, check out the MSP skills repo. The link is below. It's got over 50 different MCP servers, skills and connectors that you can use to connect your entire stack to the agentic AI of your choice.

[00:03:56] Now, why do you care? The reason is you can now go through and say, find all the unused licenses that I'm paying for that I shouldn't be. Would you like it to go through and prep across all your different tools for that QBR? That thing that took you hours to prepare for for one client is now one sentence. So if you want to make sure you're getting the value out of AI, you've got to connect it to your real world business systems.

[00:04:22] And there is no better place than the MSP skills repo. Check out on the link below. And if you have questions or if you just want to join, learn more, come to the one to build sessions. You'll see us putting it into action. So I think, you know, you said a lot there to unpack, right? I love that.

[00:04:42] I think a part that we could skip over that most people might, people might, but I want to, I want to take one thing you said, because I think it's important is you focus on what strategic for your customer service delivery wise. So many of us have just been good or just been focused on keeping infrastructure on answering the tickets, you know, kind of basic MSP stuff, which done well is still its own challenge.

[00:05:12] What do you mean to focus on what strategic for them? Like how, because I think most of us aren't there yet. So how do, how do you, how do you even start to have that kind of a dialogue with them? Yeah. Yeah. So I think one of the challenges MSPs may have is that you get in there as an MSP, say, Hey, we're going to take care of your devices and backups. And we're going to, you know, and, and so often you're not invited to the conversation. Right. With say, Hey, you might say, Hey, by the way, we do this cool thing over here. It's going to transform your business.

[00:05:41] They say, that's great. We were bringing in Accenture to do that or whatever, you know? And we, so we generally lead with something, a project. I mean, it doesn't happen overnight. So you start saying, well, let's, let's lead with this project. Maybe it's an assessment. Maybe it's something about understanding a business challenge, whatever. And you have to, and of course, then you back up before that and you have to market that, your capabilities and decide what you can actually do and deliver successfully.

[00:06:10] So we will often start with something strategic. And then in the, in the, in the conversation, they say, well, gosh, we could really use recurring support and we could use this, you know, be, can you be here for, for a long time to, can we have a contract that, so you don't leave? And like, yeah, sure. And by the way, how's your IT? How's your, your operational stuff? And we can decide whether that's in our wheelhouse or not. Um, so we start with that conversation.

[00:06:36] Uh, and one of our, I'll even go further is that we, we did a lot of branding work inside, uh, the company. And I've, I don't think I made previous conversation we had. We talked a little bit about the book I wrote, I believe, but it was, uh, from, for us brand and culture are basically two sides of the same coin. So you build this culture and your brand is your external representation of your culture. So we figure out who are we and what are we not?

[00:07:06] Because, uh, it, in, in MSP or most, a lot of, a lot of worlds, you say, Hey, if anybody's going to pay me for it, I'll just do it. And we said, we're not going to do these certain things. We're not good. Like help desk. We, we are not a help desk. They were too expensive and we just haven't operationalized it to be successful, uh, for, but we know what we're good at. So, um, so we, so we came up with this phrase that kind of drove us, which was strategically human.

[00:07:34] And so there's a lot of strategy goes on and there's lots of, when you're talking to your customers, your prospects, they can get overwhelmed with acronyms. There's a zillion of them in most, most industries. And it's not, it's like that. And so we try to break it down to what, what they care about. And of course, now with AI, that's really important because there's, I don't know if I should use Opus or this or, or co-working or, you know, it doesn't matter what it is.

[00:08:02] So they, they need to, you need to, you need to demystify that for them. That's right. So, so we started with that and I'll tell you, and then if you, if the reason why we decided this is a better, better route for us, it's not the best route for everybody, but is that we, we have very experienced people. So we have on average, like if you took all of our consultants on average is 24 years of experience. That's crazy. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. That's not, that's not slightly above normal.

[00:08:32] That is crazy high in a good way. Yeah. So, so people have done it, seen it. Sometimes I wrote a book on it. You know, if you look at the building blocks of most technology, people say, oh, that's new. No, it's not new. It was built on this technology on top of that one. And you glued it all together properly. And so we understand those things. Now there's the downside of that is, is to hire great people. You need to compensate them well. Otherwise they'll leave. So we've, anytime we've hired somebody like, wow, this person is amazing.

[00:09:00] And if they are live up to their potential, they are, they're going to do great. And then what we've always found is that they not only did great, but they, they brought something new to the table that we didn't even know. And so like, it made us a better business along the way. So it started a long time ago and by hiring people better than us, like everybody at the company is way more technical than me and way better at a lot of things than me. And that's the way it should be. So you build on that and then suddenly you realize, wow, we have all this really great capacity.

[00:09:29] Now they're willing to culturally, they're willing to fix someone's desktop. They're willing to dive in and fish through network cables that they have to, but that's not the best use of their time. It's more like, uh, we are in chaos. Can you help us? And we just dive in with our parachutes and say, yep, let's go and just do it. And we can figure it out. And we do this thing called chaos to clarity and so forth. So the point is we, it's built over time. If you, if you make a switch, you can make a switch in your mind saying, I think we want

[00:09:58] to do this for various reasons. You have to purposely drive that way and you have to make sure you don't, don't focus on the shiny thing on the left that might drive you to like, well, we always done it this way. So I'll pause there. I said a lot. I don't know if I went the direction you wanted to go, but, um, yeah. Speaking of shiny thing, AI can be the ultimate shiny thing, right? It changes faster than anything I've ever seen, but it's one of your core goals.

[00:10:27] So how do you reconcile those? Yeah. Well, the reason why that's, it's part of certain elements of, of AI are shiny. Uh, so if you, because it's our goal and we're focused on it. So, um, so let me, let's talk about how we, how we operationalize this a little bit. Please. So we said, okay, let's only make sure that everybody has a copilot license and we have, and everybody's, so that's the first step is people don't want to pay for that.

[00:10:56] We say, Hey, everyone has at least a copilot license. And we, through this, we can monitor how you monitor the usage. You can do it. They give you a dashboard showing how, how many queries people use on copilot. Now, in my opinion, copilot is good at some things and terrible at other things. Uh, but if you're going to, um, so by, by, by, bringing in copilot, for example, in Microsoft, you have, you have this enterprise agreement.

[00:11:20] He says, listen, you have all of our, our data and it has all of the proper securities, uh, realms in there. So I'm not, if, if, if somebody queries about me, they're not going to find documents in my, in my, uh, my director because it knows who, who, and does a good job of those types of things. So I can, I can do general things like, you know, tell me, uh, the best strategy using our go to market strategy that I should talk to this customer and so forth. It has some useful tidbits on that, but you have to use it every day.

[00:11:49] So that's, so that's one element. And then, um, what we've done too, is we use a number of, uh, third party tools. So, uh, people have PSAs. We happen to use auto task. And so we've, uh, built a graph connector that imports all of our auto task data into 365. So inside 365, you can might say, show, show me the top tickets or top issues or something like that.

[00:12:14] And so you do that within a, within a, uh, interface where before you had to go to autotask and you say, let me write it. Let me do a report to the dashboard. And is that right? And you're tweaking it all the time. And now you can just do it. You can do it in human language. I just did it today. Like, just show me this, this factoid I want to know that compares these things inside a database we've had for 17 years of, of, of, of data.

[00:12:38] So we've, we start to, we, part of our thing was to incorporate this into the Microsoft graph and, and, uh, and, uh, and the whole, uh, area there. And it took some, that takes some effort. So we're doing various tools there. But I think, uh, we did going into, uh, AI there's, we, we have another, another level. We have, we, uh, the AI SMEs, the subject matter experts. We formed a team. It's, or there are some people that are super passionate about it. They're leading the way.

[00:13:09] Everybody can join this, this, uh, weekly, weekly meeting. And then we have tech talks. We always have TED tech talks. So we've had tech talks every two weeks and during lunch, somebody says, let me tell you about how this works. And so we have, I think we have over 600 tech talks or something crazy like that, that are, that we've recorded. And we're actually, we're actually going to, uh, thinking about making that external for clients and trying to make it so that we can share data.

[00:13:36] We often don't share those tech talks because we're like, Hey, I did this at a customer or I, uh, this is something cool that it has to be something you don't want to share with the world. But, um, so we have this, this group that's driving it and, uh, and with, with, with rocks that go along with it. But we also, which we went to a open AI for a little bit. We, we, we ended up settling on anthropic clod for a group of people who said, I want to code.

[00:14:06] And then, cause, cause I don't know, copilot is not great at coding. Uh, so we set up, you know, we set up a whole divide development environment in a secure way with containers and various things. And as like a one click, you can be here, you can be a developer and your, your VS code and so forth. So, uh, people can dig into that. And I think, uh, I don't know, I think we have probably about 10 people doing that on a regular basis. Mm.

[00:14:33] Uh, and so if that's allowed us to do the, so you talk about the shiny things, you can say, well, I want to do something cool, but then what do you want to do? That's going to add value to the business. Right. That's the question. Right. Yeah. So we, so, um, one of the, one of the things that we, uh, we struggle with always is having the right amount of data. So like, uh, right about having the answers at our fingertips for certain things. I mentioned auto task earlier, but there's auto task. There's a number of different tools.

[00:15:00] Let's say you would say, I want to figure out, uh, how much, what kind of resources we have. If we want new business, like, do I have enough? What's, what's, what's our utilization of, and you could kind of go in on different tools and do that. And then you talk to people and you, and it's a, it's a very manual process. We've got a dashboard that shows our complete utilization with skillset and so forth. So we say, Hey, if we're going to win this job, look, it's right there at our fingertips.

[00:15:26] And we want to, and we know that we can, uh, we can win so many deals without having to hire somebody. Right. So those kinds of things are at our fingertips where we kind of had a, well, we had to do a lot of talking and looking at certain things. And, uh, but we have, we have a very complete dashboard now that there was that our VP of services basically, you know what? I'm, I'm just going to do it. And he just cranked it down. Like, and then he's like, what else can I add to it? So forth.

[00:15:53] So it's, it's, uh, it's allowed us to move faster because AI is with the APIs, it's taking all that we have these, you know, agents go around, gather this data, put it into a dashboard. It's real time and allows us to, um, uh, do visualization. I'll say, go ahead. I want to kind of double click there because in my experience, a lot of people have chatted with AI, but they haven't connected tooling, APIs, MCP servers,

[00:16:23] connectors, connectors, whatever, you know, they're called skills, et cetera. Um, depending on the platform and maybe they've connected one and they've put a little data out, but sometimes you connect two, three, four, and you can now do all sorts of more interesting things, data in, data out. Um, what does it unlock now that you've kind of gone past what I would call just chatting, um, with AI? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:50] Well, I think what, what it unlocks, I think, so if you think about chatting, you're asking a specific question and it's, it's very, in some ways it's unstructured, right? You don't know what you're going to ask. You don't know what you're going to get. And you say, I, I really, I want to know our total pipeline value. I want to know my, uh, net revenue retention. I want to know certain things. And so you could say, well, let's look at QuickBooks, but you say, I want this all the time. So, and, and so if you're going to, if you want to, uh, encourage your, your company to say, listen, you are going to, here's the data.

[00:17:20] Um, and you are empowered to do the right thing. And they say, gosh, I noticed that our, um, our utilization is going down or up or whatever. Um, we even have wellbeing score, like how, how people feel about things with surveys. Uh, so you have this way and everybody can communicate. They have a central way. It's not like, I wonder this. I wonder like, well, these are the things that we think are important. That's our dashboard. And so they're, they're concrete.

[00:17:45] So there's a pre steps like, well, the con the, the dashboard wasn't made, um, at a whim. It was made on the same things we, we do with traction. Like what, what is it? What are our, uh, what are we tracking from a, you know, from revenue or whatever? So you have certain things you want to track, but then usually every week or say, so someone's, someone's going to update this and somebody's going to do this. And so that's not the case anymore. Everybody can see it.

[00:18:12] Uh, we also, and I think I talked, uh, I, for those of you who haven't, didn't listen to the previous one, I wrote a book called leadership at the edge. And part of the, part of the, one of the chapters is about open book management. And I said, be able to share as much as you possibly can finances. Cause when you share this stuff and you have good people, they are, they're going to be able to see it in a different way and go, wow, I get, I, I'm going to make this happen. And so we do, we embrace that. And that's part of this.

[00:18:40] So, so the dashboards is one thing that is, um, we've got customer, uh, we also have a customer dashboard so we can look at our customers. Uh, we also take that, that data. Uh, so we, we have, so we have, um, we have auto task. We've got HubSpot as our tool, as our tool. We've got, uh, a number of other tools that we use to track, uh, QPRs and various things. And now it's all in one spot.

[00:19:05] So we can say, uh, we can say, well, let me give me, give me a sense of what's going on at this customer. Who are the contacts where it was just all in different places. And we also compare it to market data. We look at their, let's, we look at what's going on in their market. We look at what's going on, uh, on their website, all the posting like announcements, whatever. So you can compare all that.

[00:19:29] So if somebody wants to provide strategic value, they say, well, look, here's what's everything that's been going on across all our tools and communication and Slack channels and everything. And oh, by the way, they just announced that they just got this new drug out or they just announced that they, um, you know, I don't know, they're, they're going public or something, which you should know anyways, but you can use that all together. It's not, it's not digging through it. So it's short, it compresses the time to move.

[00:19:56] Uh, and then, uh, so that's, that's an element to that. I think that's how you can add more value because you're not just saying, well, Hey customer, I closed these many tickets. And then ticket is just an indicator of work being done. Right. And just proof of that.

[00:20:13] So we, uh, so although they are good for tracking mechanisms, I, I would think if you asked, uh, your customers, if, if number of tickets close, I mean, they want to know, they don't want to open tickets and they want you to respond quickly. But if you said that, was it a valuable metric to them? They might say, no, what's valuable to me is that my stuff works. Yeah.

[00:20:34] Now I want to get back to a part where you talked about AI being one of the focuses and, you know, you have the thing is, I think most people are saying, I know I need to, I don't know what to do with, like, I know I need to do AI. And I know I need to kind of figure out how to do it internally, dog food it, and then take it to my customers. But in my experience right now, most MSPs are still at that stage going, it's, it changes every minute. How do I get my arms around it? What do I do?

[00:21:02] And we have people that go, I don't know, I'll just resell a vendor and I'll just kind of stay on the edges. And then we have people that think they need to learn everything that comes out every five minutes. Um, I think both of those are probably the wrong take, but I'd love to hear your experience. Yeah, I think, well, I, like you, I I've talked to a couple of peers and they say, well, first we got to figure out our AI policy. That's our goal this year. I'm like, that's your goal this year?

[00:21:30] And, you know, and so we developed an AI policy early on, but it's like, uh, so there's a, so there's, I think there's some people can get bogged down too, because it's can be scary saying, you know, like AI can look at all my data or my customer's data and you've got to have, that's a, that's a real thing. Um, and I'll get to your deeper question in a second, but we were at a conference. We had a booth. It was a life science conference. And we were talking about our strategic consulting and we, and we had some stuff around AI.

[00:21:59] We had our AI experts there just in case, and they should have called it the AI conference. Cause even all the, everyone in these life sciences, it was about AI. It's about getting the right data in the right place and, and good data. And so it can be overwhelming. And I think when you're, especially when you become a really large company and you haven't been paying attention to how your data is structured or secured. And so that, that, that could be initial project, but for those who are trying to decide what,

[00:22:26] where to jump in the water, I think, I mean, I think, uh, it can be overwhelming for sure. Yeah. Uh, and so when I first said, I want to get into this, I was like, well, I don't really know if I want to code or not. And I'm like, I just want to use it. And then suddenly I realized, I think I want to code, you know? And so, uh, so we, we, we decided to go with, with Claude.

[00:22:56] You can choose opening eye and, and we, we chose Claude for various reasons, but you just choose one. And, and, you know, during the time that we've done this has been 4.5, 4.6, 4.7. Now they have a new one coming out. Uh, that's, that's five. It was, I can't remember. I topped my head with, but you, you can easily switch those models and go, wow, this is even better than before.

[00:23:17] But, but I think you, uh, the, so if you're, if you're trying to figure out what to do, uh, um, I would say you have to move fast and maybe you're going to break a few things. Uh, you don't want to let your secrets escape. And there's some things you can do best. You know, there's, there's, uh, you may know as a, as the dudes programming yourself, like, you know, you don't, you don't, uh, you don't put your credentials in your get your repository. Right. You know, that kind of stuff.

[00:23:45] People's like, well, I wrote a program. And so anyways, there's a lot of things you can do upfront to like, uh, matter of fact, you can use AI. So I need to create a secure framework that every time I do this code, check everything out before I check it in and so forth. And there's a, so you can, one of our members, and I think it is too much. I say, well, how do you get started? He's like, just tell AI you want to get started. You're like, what are you talking about? Yeah. Uh, and so sometimes you literally do that. It's like, how do I use this new framework in our, in our get repository?

[00:24:14] It's like, just have AI point to the repository and say, use this. And I, that's a little too, that's a little too, uh, loose handed for me. I like to say, I like to know exactly, but I, I was able to say, okay, let me look at this a little bit. And, uh, so sometimes AI will help if you ask the questions and like, how can I get started? Just, uh, maybe that's a, maybe that's a decent ways to start. And you can ask it like, what are the things I should be worried about security or what, or what are the things in your mind? What is stopping you?

[00:24:43] Uh, that is a possible way. Uh, I'm, I've been, I've been a little obsessed and, uh, and luckily I have a little bit of time to focus on this. Not every, not every, uh, CEO does, uh, because I have our integrators, my co-founder, he's largely, you know, he does the day to day running the company of certain things.

[00:25:07] But even watching videos online of how this stuff works, um, and then I've been watching his Claude videos. Well, so what is fascinating to me is, is you watch these, the company like Claude or like Anthropic that has literally, is one of the few ones making money for one. Right. Their, uh, and their rate of growth and adoption, uh, is due to their, their ability, but also their culture, I think is a part of it too. Yeah.

[00:25:37] Uh, I think when, once they said, Hey, government, we're not just going to do everything you said, we're not going to put these in weapons, right. Just because you, and they, I think their, their adoption went way up. Like, Whoa, these guys are actually going to follow their core values. Um, that's just my own feeling on that. But, uh, but, but I watched, so what I found, I watched this weekend was a video of this woman giving a presentation at Anthropic. And she's talking about, like, she worked at Microsoft.

[00:26:01] She worked at, um, Facebook or, you know, she looked at, and she was a, she was a manager of these companies. And she, and she's looking at just in her own, just at Anthropic, the way they're doing code, the way they're, they're changing the way they're doing things is radically changing inside the company. And so I was like, Holy cow. Like, I felt like I had a really growth mindset, but these people are moving super fast.

[00:26:26] They're like saying, why would I do this when I can have, I can, I can tell my agents they're all set up the morning. I'm looking at my coffee and it's telling me what's, what's going on. And I can, I can make these hard decisions and then I can guide it versus. And so at one point you get to that point where you're like, wait, I'm actually using my brains to tell this army of agents to do things. Yeah. And, and the more mundane it is, the more you should have it work on it. Yes. And so there's a, there's a, there's going to be a line you cross and there's a aha moment.

[00:26:56] And I think, and even if I stuck on, you know, Claude 4.8, I would probably be pretty good for a while. But so I, it's a, you have to jump in the water and if you can't swim very well, stay towards the shallow end a little bit and then just swim out there a little farther. And you realize you can swim better than you think you can. What's unprecedented is the rate of change. I think most of us got into technology because we like change and then this is just unprecedented. So I get the fatigue and overwhelm. And if you feel that way, you're not alone.

[00:27:27] I'll never forget Karpathy, one of the founders of OpenAI, now Adanthropic, said he doesn't feel like he can keep up. And so if he can't keep up, welcome to the club. But on the other side, what you said is so true, Brian, right? There's, this is like, I remember it used to be like Cisco networking, you know, and other things. And that's, you know, some of that stuff was pretty arcane commands to memorize and type in. This is English. And if you don't know, ask it.

[00:27:56] And if you don't know how to, like you said, how should I set up security in a good way? It'll tell you some things, you know, if you don't ask it for security, it won't give you any. But if you at least ask for security, you'll have better than zero. If you ask about how I do this or how can I experiment with this? So it is very weird. In one way, it's a way of change.

[00:28:16] The other way, it's far more approachable than trying to be, you know, a CCNA or MCSE or whatever, you know, back in the day of memorizing a somewhat arcane syntax. Well, I want to, I want to step out for a second and just kind of talk about the results.

[00:28:37] You know, we're talking a little bit of how, but if I understand you have done a couple things, it's highly unusual. Doubled revenue. Is that correct? Yeah. Over a period of time. Sure. Not in one year, but yeah, over a couple of years. Yeah. Okay. So for a couple of years, you've doubled revenue. Which normally would mean as an MSP double headcount.

[00:29:01] And I think you shared with me, you went from 37 to 24, somewhere around there. Yeah. Over a period of like five years. Yeah. Okay. So the question I was going to ask, how many did you fire because of AI? Zero. Right. Yeah. That's the thing. Yeah. Yeah. So sometimes. Yeah. So we were at one point where the way we're, I mean, we made some talk about this journey

[00:29:31] we've had where we've, if you're doing simple MSP thing, how many devices, how many people you do have and you, and you scale that way. And it's nice because it's a, it's a predictable revenue stream. It's, it's, you can scale it. You understand it. So we changed a little bit more to how we're doing things, the value added. And the reason why we, people are gone or is that we, you know, there were natural attrition

[00:29:58] points along the company or, you know, it, it happened in a more natural way. We didn't say, you know what? We got to work. AI is coming. I mean, this happened, we had, we did have a couple of years, three years ago, we had a downsizing a little bit, but a couple of major customers all, we were struggling to try to keep everybody there and we just had to make a choice. That's how it happens from the time to time. We've, that doesn't, it's only happened twice in the 19 years that we've had the company.

[00:30:26] And we take it very seriously because I could tell you generally that I love all of our employees. They're just like, you know, they're, they're so good people and they do such a good job. But over time, as we've, as we, we, things have happened, we just maybe we didn't replace them or we say, Hey, what's our capacity now? And, and, and, and people started rising to the occasion and doing things.

[00:30:50] And so it over, over that five years of time, we went from like 37 now into 24. And that same period of time, we probably, we went from 5 million to 10 million of revenue. So we doubled the revenue with less people. And it wasn't like, it was never a squeeze. It was like, as a matter of fact, the way we're doing things now, I still like, I told you about this dashboard. We still have capacity. We still, we think we can grow without, and it's just because the type of work we're

[00:31:20] doing, maybe it's the rates we're charging. Maybe it's a combination of things. But you know, it's so I guess that's, that's, I guess when we were talking earlier, you talked about that. That sounds like a successful outcome. I think, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Do you attribute any of that freedom or capacity to anything you're doing with AI?

[00:31:46] Uh, not, it's not, well, the capacity in the, um, the future, I mean, when, you know, a lot of this happened over time, we, we weren't, we weren't always an AI company. Obviously nobody was. Yeah. Five years ago, nobody was really. Yeah. Yeah. We were, we were, we were focused on automating and, and providing automation at some point, but really trying to provide a higher level value. And that's what we're, what I talked about.

[00:32:13] So we change our model, uh, and we stuck to it and we just keep digging. Do we, we keep, uh, emphasizing it. So, but going forward. So, so, uh, I think we have a great level of trust within our, within our employees, but I, I will say that I've, uh, I've communicated through video, through email, through Slack, through every channel we can on a semi-regular basis, encouraging everybody to, to embrace AI.

[00:32:42] And that is not going to replace them. We have no L and I, I'll stand by this forever. If we're not going to get rid of people because of AI, we want them to be more empowered to use AI. And we think we can grow the business and they can be part of that and they can upskill and they can do things they've never done before. And they can, uh, because they can use the, because everybody has stuff in their job. They don't like, it's like, you've got to do this thing.

[00:33:08] So even timesheets, we can, we have a thing in Slack that talks to AI. It says, you know, can you, I just did this thing. Can you put a timesheet entry in? And it's like, okay, boom. You know, like it's, it's what, what, what has caused you to hate using XYZ tool? Let's find an easy way to do it. So those are the types of things I think will make people's jobs better and easier. Uh, and so, yeah, I don't think there's any threat though. In my mind, there's no, AI is not threatening anybody at our company.

[00:33:38] Um, I think I'm, what we're doing might become a threat to other MSPs who aren't going into AI, but, but there's plenty, there's lots of business for all of us. I really don't, I rarely, I don't have a poster of my biggest competitor on the wall and I'm going to take them down. I mean, I figure like there's so many, it's, we can, we all, there's room for most of us. Right. And I think, uh, but if they want to grow, I do think that's important to dig into some strategy soon.

[00:34:08] Yeah. Well, if you're following along, you can do math at all. That kind of revenue by that many employees puts you almost double, maybe double the best in class. So there's something you're doing right. Automation, culturally go to market, you know, some combination thereof because you're, you're making best in class. Look, you're, you're in a different ballpark. So I want to, if you're, if you're following on this story with Brian, that is amazing.

[00:34:37] But every time I talk to you, it's about the culture, it's about the people, you know, how you're enabling them. Um, I want to talk about like this subject matter expert group, this AI one they put together. You said like they're now coding, were they developers or coders or are they now because of their, they, um, no. Um, well, I would say that, you know, as you probably know, like there's not, I mean, maybe

[00:35:06] there is now, but I mean, forever, there's never been really an IT degree, you know? And so my, so like, uh, let's say I'm, I'm, I'm doing vibe coding with some, I can see what's wrong or right, but I, you know, I had, I haven't coded since really. They, I mean, though, anyway, so most of us are maybe we're, we're scripters like, Oh, you write some Pearl, do some scripts that are going to operationalize things. That's most of the extent of it.

[00:35:34] Um, one of our biggest coders is in our, um, operations and HR team. This guy, yeah. The guy, Justin, he's like, he, he, he's like, he dug himself in. And in fact, I think we have a podcast, him talking about his, his adventure. And he just wanted to learn it. And he wanted to, he's always wanted to learn it. And then we said, yeah, you could go ahead and we'll give you the time.

[00:35:56] And, and so he's been doing great things with AIs, uh, you know, trying to like do things around our finances or integrating, um, uh, some of the reports we would have to do. And matter of fact, he has actually been billing to our customers. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So he basically, we, the people needed to, uh, take, uh, the, to the Microsoft environment.

[00:36:23] And he was, um, he said, Oh, Jesse can do this. He's, he's done it for us. And he just finished two big projects for two different customers. So it's very rare that, uh, uh, an HR slash operations person who does our, our benefits and our, and, uh, our payroll, he's billing out to, to a customer because the customer really needed this and he had the expertise. So he wasn't a coder. Uh, some people have backgrounds in engineering.

[00:36:52] Uh, the person leading our AI, I think he's got a, he's, he's got a bio biology degree with a master's in information systems or something. But for the most part, uh, I would say, no, uh, we're not official coders, but we do use the methods. We, we've got to get repository. We do pull, you know, PRs and, and, uh, commits and so forth. Like, so we try to, and that's again, yeah. Like, how do you do this?

[00:37:21] The best class let's, uh, have AI guide us along and then, and then put some structure around it when we think, and we have to agree eventually we're going to do this. Yeah. So, so yeah, I don't think you have to, I mean, well, I would say if you want to, if you want to make your business smarter and the way it runs, I think you, you're going to have to do some coding through AI. Yeah.

[00:37:51] And that, that means you're probably can't, you know, codecs, cloud code. There are tools for that, that you have to get out of the web browser. You may have to get uncomfortable. Uh, like you said, you're mentioning GitHub and pull requests. There's these, there's this terminology and AI can teach you what it is and AI can generally do it, um, for you, but, uh, you know, dump, jump in. Um, I know we've been through the same experience in my team where people didn't know anything about those things.

[00:38:17] And, uh, and now we're doing those sorts of things and contributing in amazing ways. Um, so it's like, if you, if you don't limit people, you never know what they'll come up with. Um, speaking of, I think you have a policy around, like you can spend how much time if it helps the business around AI. Uh, I should know this, but, um, we don't, I don't, we don't have a specific, I don't have a specific hours.

[00:38:45] We've generally let people spend. Oh, so let me back up. So what we do is we say, listen, you are responsible for, you have responsibilities and you have outcomes you have to meet, take care of the customer, uh, whatever you like. Like, and everybody has a number of customers, take care of the customer, do your job. If you're, if you've got extra time on your hands, do something that's going to grow you. Like, and right now we, we like that to be AI, but it could be something else.

[00:39:13] It could be, I want to learn more about marketing or something. Um, and so, um, we don't have a, we don't have a minimum, uh, billing requirement for customers, for employees. So a lot of times, and we did earlier and we said, listen, you have to bill at least a minimum of 37 hours, we'll give you three hours to do whatever. And, and, uh, and so it can be very stressful. Like, okay, I had to travel at this, I bill, you know, like, and so we said, we, we, we lowered that down. And then finally we said, we don't, we don't do that anymore at all.

[00:39:41] We're, we're focused on outcomes and not billable time. Interesting. Even though we, we do have retainers with customers that are, are by the hour, but we've want to do like, if we can do more in one, in a short amount of time, that's more and, and they will find, if you do that really fast, they will find cool stuff for you to do. And, and so you're not going, well, I just need to use up all the hours. That's not our mindset, but, but because with, with that extra time, then you can say,

[00:40:11] I want to, I want to learn AI. Uh, it made me think about something, uh, different, different areas. Right. So let's say I mentioned marketing. Somebody want to learn more about marketing. So we have a marketing person, Jess, and she's amazing, but we just had a big role. We had a big brand rollout, uh, a couple of weeks, three weeks ago, so forth, uh, where we had a wet, we hired a website designer because we use HubSpot and HubSpot can be a little bit different to, to do than other platforms.

[00:40:38] But we wanted to completely change how we, to the best practices. Well, our, our, our, uh, our website designer company, they've, they back, they flaked, they flaked out on us and we're, we're struggling here. We don't have the time. They're going through their own problems. So my team sat with Jess and said, we're going to help you, we're going to help you use Claude to refresh all of our web pages using Claude.

[00:41:07] And we're going to get you the maximum number of tokens you need and whatever, and teach you how to do that. And she cranked out the rest of this project. She took over for the web designer. She gets, she's like, uh, and, uh, and she rolled out her website and, uh, and she had people, you know, quality check and has even had agents to make, let's make sure it's all right. So she is definitely not a coder. Right. And she, and she, and she did this and she did all within, she didn't, I don't think she did VS code.

[00:41:33] I think she did like, she did it within the Claude app on the desktop, but you know, we had to connect it to HubSpot and various things. So she did something very complex with zero coding knowledge and, uh, and a big, a great outcome. Cause you know, when you're, if you're our, our website, we've had it for, we've got hundreds and hundreds of blogs and they all had to be refactored and, and, and hundreds of, and

[00:41:59] so perfect thing for some, some agents that says, understand your, your format and your, your color palette and various things just to go off and do this and, uh, resounding success. So that if, if, uh, if you're talking to somebody, technical leading a company, and maybe if you're a marketing person can do this, then that's maybe an inspiration for you to do that. Yeah. Yeah. You can get your hands dirty.

[00:42:29] Um, and I think a lot of people, you know, lead with the cost savings, right? That website company wasn't free. You could say we saved X. That's great. But how empowered I'm sure she feels now to make changes and to do things that you would normally have to wait and bid and, you know, go to an external party. Um, and now she can do your marketing person. So many things. I, I, I'm, I'm, is that one of the outcomes you see? Oh, for sure. Yeah.

[00:42:58] And it wasn't about saving money. We would have paid that money to that company. They were just struggling for various reasons. Uh, and, and when we had to do technical stuff on HubSpot before we'd have to, you know, I get involved, somebody else to get involved. There's a, it was a little bit more like we have to change some underlying structure, but she's now going forward. She has a, she, so she's empowered and she, uh, and allows us to go move forward in a, in a, in a way.

[00:43:23] Um, and we've always said, and, uh, I'm big on marketing, so I've never, I've, I've almost never, I've never said no to a request. Like you want to, you think this is going to have a high value and you're going to try to show ROI on this. Um, and if it's, we, I treat things like the scientific method, you know, like somebody says, well, I want to figure out whether this grows in this Petri dish. And then I, I think it's going to, I'm going to try a couple of things and either it did or

[00:43:52] it didn't, and I'm going to learn both ways. That's right. So that's how I, we approach a lot of things. Like we have a pretty good idea. This is going to work. It may not work, but you're trusted to try it. And if you don't, if you do it and you struggle along the way, you're going to develop a lot of grit and resilience and, and know that you, that we all have your back. And if it fails miserably, just raise your hand or starts fail, just raise your hand and you'll get help.

[00:44:22] Yeah. So, uh, yeah, it's a, it's a cultural adoption. Um, which makes you think a little bit about what we've been talking about is I don't know whether you, you've talked to many people, but I found that many MSP owners that I talked to don't necessarily trust their people. Yeah. Some of them don't for sure. Yeah. And so, uh, and I say to you like, well, if you don't trust them, why would you hire them?

[00:44:52] Or, or you're the problem because you don't trust anybody and nobody can do as good as you and so forth. So, so if you're going to adopt a new technology and jump in with both feet, you feet, feet, two feet. Um, yeah, uh, then you have to, I think there's gotta be a level of trust within, um, your employees and say, and I'm sure somebody in the company would love to be like, I'd love to lead this. I want to take it on. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:45:19] And in our own journey, it's been not always the technical person. It's been interesting people. They're fired up, passionate. Maybe they just see the problem that nobody else sees through the same lens. Um, and that's, what's been interesting and surprising from my perspective. I love how you boiled down some of your culture to the scientific method. That's really cool. Uh, how you said one of your goals is to, to do this in the company. And take it to clients. Where are you in that journey?

[00:45:48] How, how do you take this to clients? Yeah. So this has been, uh, so far fairly successful. So we, in our, the way we're structured is that we have engagement managers. So we have, we have, in our company, we have 24 people as mentioned in the technical staff, we have, uh, four VC IOs. So they're, they're, they're in charge of, uh, the big relationships, but then we have a series of engagement managers. So they are, they are the day to day interface with the customers.

[00:46:15] And so, um, our engagement managers would set up a meeting with all of our customers and just, just about AI. We're just going to have a meeting with you, uh, whoever's point of contact. We're just going to talk to you about where are you in AI? What do you want to, you know, are you scared? Do you want to do it? Are you forward, you know, and so forth. And just have these discussions to educate them and let them know that we're there for them. Um, and, and in some cases, if they're forward moving, like we could use to help with this and this, we might guide them along or give them resources.

[00:46:44] If they want us to help, sure, we will do it, but we try to be their trusted advisor and we're meeting with every single one of them. Uh, and it's been, you know, and their journey has been all over the place, but we were, we're tracking, uh, each one of them in our, in our system saying, okay, well, we've met with so-and-so and, and, uh, here's where they are and here's some of their challenges. So we can use those challenges like, well, how can we get it, help them get over the challenge? Is it a cultural problem or is it a technical problem?

[00:47:10] Like maybe they just really, they're in a regulated environment and data cannot escape no matter what. So like, okay, let's figure out their data policy. You know, we, that kind of things, because there's those kinds of things arise, or we might ask questions about what is the biggest thing that takes the most time for you? So allow us to have, we're having business level discussions because there are some technical, but we're able to have those. We could, we have, we have these, we specifically have these meetings with them.

[00:47:38] Uh, and then we're having a lot of meetings with prospects about this as well, because we've, we spent, I told you like, I like marketing where it will, so what are our go to market motions? Like a lot of people do outbound sales. We're mostly inbound. So a lot of SEO and now there's AEO or they call it many things, but yeah, uh, we, we've had people, as a matter of fact, just happened yesterday.

[00:48:05] Like somebody went to, to, uh, open, um, chat GPT and said, what is the best company in Boston to do this XYZ? And they call this. So they said that people are trusting the AI. So we're, we were specifically marketing and doing what we need to do in that area to get, you know, so all of these things lead to like, well, people are going to start to trust us and we're going to have some, some really great case studies and, and work on that.

[00:48:32] So I think the, the question that our clients are probably in the range of the people you talk to, like some of them are like, yes, we're going this way. And some are like, we're a little shy about this. How can we get started? Or should we? Yeah. So is that turning a project work or recurring work or what, what do you, do you see a separate line of business or like a chief AI officer?

[00:48:58] I'm curious of like, um, business model mechanics around what you see coming out of this. Yeah. I think the first, well, the first part of it is, is projects. I think, uh, and part of us for us is we want to do a project, but then we also want to enable them. Um, so it's like, like anything, we don't want to say, well, we, you can only do it if we're around. Um, right.

[00:49:20] We, uh, as far as monetizing on a regular basis, like we are, uh, early, uh, anthropic partners. So we did went through this various training and so we're, we're going to the next level. They said, you're accepted then we're. And so, but in the end, like, uh, anybody who wants to become an anthropic partner, you can't, you can't resell anthropic or, or cloud like you can, um, Microsoft. So that's not a business model.

[00:49:47] For us, it's more about having the expertise and trusting, but I think it's going to be mostly projects. Uh, do I see, I think it's gonna be maybe a recurring set of projects. If you do this one well, what else can you do? And, and so forth. So I don't think we have, uh, a specific recurring thing, although I think some projects could take a long time and so that could be a challenge because people like one reason you like MSP

[00:50:16] work and recurring revenue, cause you sell it and it's like clockwork every month you get paid. And so we can do it on a retainer basis and we may have to like finish a project and then go on and maybe that nothing happens. But you're then building. So that could be a gateway. So if it's our customer with already a customer, if they're a project, maybe they're saying, well, you did this and I have so many other problems with my IT MSP, whatever. Okay. What else can you do for me?

[00:50:42] That's when you start doing really, it could, it could go into recurring areas that I haven't really thought too much. I don't know if you have any thoughts on, on this recurring, uh, service model for, for AI. I'm interviewing people about that. So I'm asking them, uh, there's are few that are, you know, kind of like VC. So or be CIO wasn't a thing. And they're coming out with a chief AI officer. Um, others are selling blocks of hours.

[00:51:12] Um, I think, you know, I suspect before MSP, most of us were selling, we're doing hourly time materials and then we kind of moved to blocks of hours and then we kind of realized there's this different packaging called managed services. So I kind of suspect there'll be some evolution needed. Um, I'd love to say that I was smart enough to figure out outcome based, uh, because I think that would be really easy to sell.

[00:51:39] Um, you know, if we can bring you more leads or if you can reduce your time to produce this or something like that and projects can, but, uh, but, um, unless you're focused on a niche where you're, you have the same problem over and over again, um, outcome based may be something that is probably a further evolution. But at least from what I see, we're still fairly early on that because most, most MSPs are still trying to figure out what do I even do with AI, let alone how do I make money? And then I think projects is usually the first rung and then trying to maybe sell billable

[00:52:09] hours or a, any eye officer. And then, um, what I love about it though, is no matter where we are in the phase, I think this is the best opportunity we've ever had to really talk about business and not just infrastructure and keeping the lights on. Um, and as many of us have said that we're going to have a seat at the board table and we're going to really be valued. We're really at most kind of supporting the CTO or CIO or being a VCIO and that's okay,

[00:52:37] but they don't usually say like, if we buy this company, how is this going to look right? They want to make sure we keep the lights on, but we're not really there in this case. If we can help them do things faster, resolve things faster, generate leads, have better EBITDA, uh, whatever the things are now, because my point is my IT budget is X. And I'd like it to be smaller usually.

[00:53:03] And then, but if you can generate more leads or help me see more patients or do more contracts if I'm an attorney or whatever the thing is, my budget is probably about as much money as I could give you. Um, so I think it's interesting because we're, we're all in that phase figuring that out. Um, and, uh, but I think we have the best opportunity to really have this business

[00:53:30] conversation that we've ever had because we could solve, like you said, it could be cultural. The adoption of AI being slow may not be technology, may be cultural. So I think there's ways that if you built this culture, you could perhaps help them. Maybe not be exactly like you, but to fix some things that are not purely IT that are maybe cultural and we can really help people in a bigger level. I also have this concern that the MSP industry, we kind of missed out on SAS.

[00:53:59] People just went and bought HubSpot and they didn't consult us, um, and, uh, whatever they bought. And, uh, especially on like the sales, sales or marketing side. And, uh, and so if, I think if you stay out of the game too long, this could be SAS and they'll just go and they'll, like you said, Accenture, right? Whoever they'll, they'll get it somehow. But I think if we're adopting it, we're, we have the security and the governance and the other pieces that they're going to need to put together.

[00:54:26] So you can access the data in the right way, in a secure, governed way and know how to access the data. So it's a long winded way of saying, I think MSPs are in the right position. It's just going to be, if we manage to take advantage of this gigantic opportunity. Um, because I, I look at like, I can't tell you how many people MSPs are not. They're like, we only allow this in our company.

[00:54:51] Like when you go audit, like your, your employees are using all kinds of AI that you have no idea. There's so much shadow AI going on and, um, it's different, but I look at it in the same way. It's like, if you're not going to help your customer solve some of those problems, then they'll find somebody that will. Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned something very powerful there, I think is the outcomes. And we've, we've, uh, that's something that we, we strive towards.

[00:55:21] You know, we can talk to be like, um, like we're, we're trying to do, uh, we're going to do this based on outcome. And it's, it's, it's often scary for people. It's like a fixed price project. We're going to do this and you, and stuff could happen. And so like what, and then you could lose, you, you could lose badly if you don't do it well. But, um, the outcomes I think is the, I, I, like I said, I don't know about a recurring model other than performing and doing more of it.

[00:55:49] But, uh, some of the big companies, McKinsey, uh, Accenture, Boston consulting group, and so forth. They have typically their model is they come in, they'll do a project. It's a million dollars. They, they have a couple high end leads. They, they got these guys fresh out of college. They're doing all the, the, the grunt work. The, the, the customers are saying, Hey, listen, AI can do the stuff that your little grunt work people are doing.

[00:56:14] And so we don't want to pay that kind of money because, you know, for that. So they're going to have, they're have to, they're, they're actually, there's some articles, some great articles about this. They're saying, well, okay, we're going to do an outcome. So we're going to, for example, save your money or we're going to, uh, increase your number of leads. One of the examples we have for us is that one of the first AI engagements we, we got involved with was a construction company and they're not even on our normal vertical, but

[00:56:44] it was because it was AI. We like, yeah, we want to, we want to tackle this. And it was a high end, um, home builder and you know, and he builds, you know, he was builds really awesome houses. And he said, the thing that's taken me is it takes me three weeks to quote people because I got to get, uh, I've got all these different vendors for septic and for siding. And, you know, and he's a catalog of things he's going to do and he's got to, he got to

[00:57:11] get all the workers and contractors and stuff like that. And he goes, I want to use AI. He goes, I was pretty, pretty impressed for a construction company to be so like, I know I could do something with AI. And so he goes, if I, if I can do this, he said, I think I can get, I can get another $3 million a year just because I can, I, my, my bottleneck is quoting. And so can he help us make an AI system that's going to take this catalog, read this in, you

[00:57:35] know, and allow them to, um, to get more business, uh, that, that was the bottleneck he recognized. So we, it was early on and I don't think it was like last summer. It was, we helped him get set up in this structure. He didn't have a lot of money to spend with us. So we're like, but we would have, we would have looking back, we, we said, yeah, we'll get you set up and start the projects. And we're looking very favorable. Looking back, we should have said, Hey, we'll do this project.

[00:58:03] And for, for every, you know, like maybe we'll charge very little or nothing, but maybe for every net new, you know, revenue stream from this, we'll, we'll take a cut. You could do that. Right. And if you're so, and we weren't as confident back then about what we could do, but those are areas that you could say, I'm going to show you value. And I only get paid when you, when you, when this works for you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Either revenue cut or I mean the amount of time they save per quote, right?

[00:58:31] Cause the quote comes through, but at three weeks is a huge amount of time. Yeah. You know, look, look at your salary of people, how long do they take? You know, we think it's going to save you over a year this much in, in labor to do this stuff. And you know, when AI is going to help you get 90% there in about an hour and then you can just tweak it after that. So. Yeah. And that's kind of thing. This costs them 500,000 a year and you charge them 50 or a hundred grand a year. That's a great deal for both of you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that, that's, that's the interesting part.

[00:59:02] If you, if you actually cracked that nut, please, please, please share. Cause I can see it coming, right? It's just, there's a few more I think pieces to pull together to, to, to make sure you're confident or to deliver it all. Well, I think the challenge with this model, with, with being a, moving it to some kind of recurring model is because of, because of the way you mentioned the rate of change is so fast. So we might say, we're going to do this and we got it down and then like, and then they come up with a new feature.

[00:59:31] Well, now there's, now there's schedules and there's this and all this stuff is built into AI. And so you're like, well, we used to, we created a framework for that, but now that's just part of what it does. So you're going to have to, I think you have to keep saying, you have to, like you, I think you mentioned SAS, like you got to jump in board and try to ride the wave. Otherwise you're on the sidelines. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I feel like this is really, really helpful and I really enjoyed this, Brian.

[01:00:01] Is there kind of any last parting thought of, I wish I knew this or this is how I would dive in or get started for those that are listening, they're still kind of somewhat in, you know, they're, they're kind of like wondering how do I do more than resell a vendor or something like that? Yeah. I think it's a, it's a mindset.

[01:00:30] But, um, a lot of, you know, I have a lot of thoughts that come to mind about this, but it's, uh, when you said reselling a vendor, I think, I think MSPs generally suffer from like death by a thousand paper cuts. Like I have 15 vendors and they all do the, cause we're great. Like people love selling those. It's one to many. They sell to an MSP and they get all these customers. So maybe it's time.

[01:00:58] This is, this is the time you can, can take control, take control of your own stack. Right. Right. Cause right now you're, you probably got IT glue. It's halfway implemented. You've got, uh, XYZ, RMM and this and their, their kind of pseudo. And like, imagine, imagine if AI could make this all work together or, or maybe even say, I don't need this tool anymore because. You know, because we want to work the way we want to work, not the way this vendor tells me to work.

[01:01:24] So you could take, it might be an opportunity to run the business the way you always run and wanted to run it and not the way the vendor tells you to run it. So maybe it's a, maybe it's a freedom thing for you. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. You don't have to play the same playbook and do it the way the vendor is kind of holding you to do that. That is wonderful. Uh, Brian, for folks that got a lot of us that would love to connect with you, reach out to you, what's the best way to find you?

[01:01:55] Yeah. So, um, uh, our company is Iuvo tech is Iuvo technology. It's just Iuvo, not technology anymore. Sorry, but it's Iuvo tech. I U V O T E C H.com is our website. You can learn more. We share a lot of content. We have, we have our own, uh, podcasts. We talk about AI regularly in there and, uh, I'm on LinkedIn, uh, Brian Beilman. And, uh, I love connecting with people. And I, I'll talk to, if you just want to know how, uh, on a personal level,

[01:02:24] if you have this question, I'd be happy to answer or work with you on that. Um, just to talk to you. So, uh, it's all good stuff. Thanks for that. If you, uh, if you're listening, take Brian up on that offer. That's amazing. Brian, thank you so much. You're one of the rare people that I've asked on twice your wisdom. Uh, and this has been a ton of fun. Um, thank you so much for being on MSP Mindset. Yeah. Thanks, Damien. I appreciate it. It's always good. Great to be here. And, uh, and I think you, uh, you have a great podcast.

[01:02:52] So I think, uh, I think people can learn a lot from you. Thank you.