From Commission Only Sales To CEO - Tips for Growing Your MSP

[00:00:00] So I think if you shift into that mindset as an MSP, all I need is 10 clients to have a limited growth

[00:00:05] if I showed up and I took care of these clients as if they were going to turn into another one.

[00:00:10] What would have to be true for this one client to turn into another?

[00:00:13] How do I grow through referrals and word of mouth? You're going to find that a lot of that leads back to the team you're hiring.

[00:00:22] Hey guys, welcome to this episode of MSP Mindset. I'm really excited to be talking to Johnny Page.

[00:00:34] He is currently the Chief Revenue Officer for SAS Academy which is the number one business to business coaching program for SAS businesses in the world.

[00:00:46] Why the heck am I talking to Johnny about the SAS expert about MSPs? It's because of the parallel.

[00:00:54] So Johnny, I think one of the interesting parts about Johnny is that he was a client of SAS Academy,

[00:01:01] a built-up company called SilverTruck and here's the other thing that I think is pretty cool.

[00:01:06] He was a commission only sales rep. He worked his way from that to CEO from less than 400K in revenue to $3 million.

[00:01:17] And so to go from commissionally sales rep which we all know is the low man on the totem pole and at least one of the hardest jobs there is to do is call and get hung up on and to $3 million.

[00:01:30] So really cool and you know, was a client of SAS Academy and now has joined SAS Academy and has the newly minted host of SAS Academy podcast.

[00:01:42] So Johnny, welcome to MSP Mindset. Thanks for joining me.

[00:01:46] Awesome. Yeah, thanks, Jamie. It's good to be here, man. I'm excited to chat through it.

[00:01:50] And you reminded me the straight commission sales rep. You're right. It is, it took me back to 2013 of the grind.

[00:02:00] I remember this first couple of months they were there or grind but yeah, man, good to be here because I'm excited to chat.

[00:02:05] Yeah. Yeah. For anybody listening like when I used to interview folks to come on and make co calls, you know we talked about you got to make this number and people want to put on a good brave face.

[00:02:15] And I'm like, all right, get it. Make co calls can you do that? I love co calls. I'm like, no, you don't.

[00:02:19] Like nobody loves co calls like you know, you just have to do them. So I can very much relate.

[00:02:27] I wanted to get right into where to me this is pretty interesting which is so you ended up being CEO and building this company silver track.

[00:02:37] What, how do you go from commissionally sales rep to CEO? Let's start with that. Yeah. Cool.

[00:02:43] So a straight commission and you're responsible the way that it's important to know how my comp plan was engineered because it makes sense, you know, the next couple of steps.

[00:02:53] So I was responsible for selling training and retaining the clients that I had. So I essentially was a reseller. It's easier to think about you know straight commission sales rep, you could default to thinking you're just going to get the business and someone's on the back end to retain it.

[00:03:08] I was selling month to month software for $300 a month was the entry level package. I got 30% of everything that got billed that month.

[00:03:18] So I could you know, I was not only doing straight commission sales but as soon as I sold the account.

[00:03:25] I had to go and train that customer and keep them. And so I very quickly started saying all right, I've got to not only care about getting this customer in the door, but I got to get some leverage because every time I sold the head.

[00:03:39] So the first couple of months it was very difficult to get any clients. I mean, there was there's barely a website.

[00:03:44] You know, I had some experience in the security industry. So we sold to physical security, you know, guarding companies that typically did you know guards on site at hospital schools, homeowners associations, we did some mobile patrol.

[00:03:58] So I had my grandparents own a company for many years and I had you know, got some experience there. I knew it was like what the target market, their biggest pains and problems where I knew what they talked about around the dinner table.

[00:04:12] And yeah, it was incredibly helpful. In fact, that's like the hack of my career is like ever I've always I was a client first. So I used Silver track to explode my my grandparents security company to the point where they were like hey, where this is a little more of a lifestyle business.

[00:04:27] Then it is a you know, a high growth company. They've been doing it for 40 some years. That was my first job like we're at different stages. So I went over and I started working with Silver track and I knew how impactful this could be for security companies, but man, this was early, early in in SaaS in general.

[00:04:45] Data and cell phones cost a lot to put on a guard site. It was like actually impacted their margins to the point where they're like, yeah, we're not sure only for a few of our contracts, but we consider putting this out there.

[00:04:57] So I remember the first month, first six months were a grind. There was one month where I sold four accounts and it had onboard four at the same time that I was trying to sell new accounts. And so then I started to have this like these peaks and valleys.

[00:05:14] I had sell several accounts and then I spent a whole bunch of times, you know, setting them up in servicemen. So then my pipeline would all dry up. And then I'd be like, all right, the four that I sold are on board they're stable now. Now I've got to go kind of start back over and get the pipeline going. So I pretty quickly recognize that the game that I was playing was not necessarily

[00:05:34] implementing Silver track for software companies. It was building the system that would allow me to increase the throughput. So if four broke my ability to both sell and service, I needed better systems in place. So I said, okay, how can I get some leverage and make it less painful to onboard a customer. And I developed a help center.

[00:05:55] So I created all of these videos and tutorials and templates that would help me take the time it took me to implement a client from, you know, let's just call it 10 to 20 hours per client down to two to three hours.

[00:06:08] And you got some time back there and figured out a way to spend more of that in, you know, on acquiring customers. And they did the same thing on that size. Hey, you know what? It's one thing to go, you know, call call and find one at a time.

[00:06:21] But I remember I was, I heard this podcast or saw a YouTube video from infusion soft that said, hey, you know, marketing is like you can wake up every day as a caveman and walk out into the prairie and go hunt and kill the one that you need. Bring it back to the cave and eat for a day.

[00:06:38] Or you could, you know, post by post build a fence around the prairie and then you get to eat whatever you want whenever you want. And I was like, oh, I like that idea. So I'm going to like, you know, I'm going to figure out a way to, you know, month over month. How can I build the marketing systems to attract more customers in the world.

[00:06:57] So it takes me less time to acquire. So, man, that was it. I think I just started doing that had had permission. Nothing really existed at the company again. It was kind of like a reseller agreement. And for two and a half years, I built up a book of business of about 150 or so accounts. And that ended up being much larger than the company had in general.

[00:07:19] So we had a conversation to say, hey, why don't instead of this being you know you being a contractor and you're keeping it this separate. Why don't we bring it all together make I was the first employee of the company aside from the three founders and we started to get them building from there.

[00:07:34] That's really cool. Yeah. I can, by the way, totally relate. And I'm sure MSP is listening and raise your hand turn yourself in as you're thinking about yourself right is the sales and the service, right.

[00:07:44] As an MSP every time you make a sale, it's it's very.

[00:07:51] You know while we've got all these cool tools, it's still onboarding is still a process. But not only that just the more deals you win, the more people you have to have this directly correlated. It's not high leverage like software.

[00:08:02] It's software. It is, you know if you double your MSP business, you're roughly doubling headcount and so yeah.

[00:08:09] So yeah, there's always the struggle between service delivery and sales very much relate that.

[00:08:16] So what did you what did you run into that made you say I'm going to book a call with South Academy. What were you struggling with at that time?

[00:08:27] Yeah, I had been. Well, it was a couple of things. So I've been consuming a lot of the content marketing. Right. So I, you know, Dan was.

[00:08:38] Dan Martell was routinely publishing YouTube videos. I was learning a lot from the content he was sharing. And again, I started to realize that the game we were playing was not necessarily the technical side of helping security companies operate better but it was company building like that. That was what my role was

[00:08:55] was morphing more and more into I knew a time to how to help a security company but like there's only so many hours in the day. So I needed to figure out how can I take what we know and I had

[00:09:05] one of the founders name is Chris Anderson was just an absolute genius in the security space. And so it was like the problem I was trying to figure out how do we take all of his experience and expertise

[00:09:16] and you expanded as much as possible have a far reaching and it's not exchanging hour for hours. So certainly the software help for some of that. But I was just looking to get into a room full of people that were had done the thing that we were doing before.

[00:09:30] So I think that you know, Danny said create a YouTube video every Monday and then sat an email and said, hey, there's three ways that I can help. And the three ways were, you know, publish a video every Monday. I've got a free Facebook group and then I do coaching. And if you're interested in coaching, let's have a chat.

[00:09:45] So I remember exactly where I was when I had the sales conversation with him as short 15 minute conversation. He starts it off by saying, hey, you know, I can't help everyone. If at any point in the conversation, I find that I can't help you.

[00:10:00] We don't stop the conversation. I'll give you a time back. If I can help you, I'll tell you what the other call, what that looks like. And how to call them is just clear that like he had been there and done that and I saw the value in having done that before. You know, this is this is about four and a half, five years into building. So it started in 2013. This is in 2017 that I'm having that initial conversation with with Dan. And through that, there was lots of pain in trying to grow the company there. Like I had still made very unsuccessful hires.

[00:10:29] Had very unsuccessful, you know, stints with agencies in every area of the business where there was like marketing outsource sales.

[00:10:37] You know, you name it like we had just kind of been on this like the only work that really produced lasting fruit was a work that we were doing.

[00:10:44] Everything else was kind of a lesson in how not to do how not to do it. There was, you know, there were some, you know, it wasn't all a loss. But I call it like you were building founder IQ, not business ROI.

[00:10:56] Like we were learning some great lessons, but just still hadn't had any progress. So when I talked today, I was like clear that he had been there and done that.

[00:11:04] And the value of being in a room full of people that were all in a similar, you know, the majority of my network was all security companies.

[00:11:10] I need to be around people who are building SaaS companies. And it's funny at I had still at the you know, I had a pretty constrained budget where boot traps asked.

[00:11:20] And so at the time I was working with a pretty pricey marketing agency. So Dan gets in the colony tells me, hey, here's how I can help.

[00:11:28] I think of the time it was going to be like roughly $2,500 a month to work with him and or 24,000 a year.

[00:11:35] And so it was about 2000 a month. And he said, hey, what do you want to do? And I said, well, I need to, you know, I'll try to get out of the contract with our marketing agency.

[00:11:46] And hopefully I'll get the rest of our founders on board. And he said, you said you were going to try and hope.

[00:11:53] And those are not like a strategy. Right. So like, what are you going to do? So I like him so thankful for that extra push because I said, you know what?

[00:12:02] I'm going to cancel our work with the agency to get the budget. And I'm going to get our founders on board.

[00:12:08] And you know, the next day I pulled out the credit card and started working with Dan and enjoyed SaaS Academy.

[00:12:15] And man, like I just remember that was in I think I signed up in September. And I went to our first event in October.

[00:12:22] We call them SaaS Academy Intensives. And I remember walking into that room for the first time there was probably about 85, 100 founders in that room.

[00:12:31] And you know, as a first time I found my tribe. Like I knew there was just something there was a knowing inside me.

[00:12:36] Like man, this is the room that I've been looking for for a long time again. Like I was, I love the process of building companies.

[00:12:44] And I was in the security issue. I wasn't passionate about security like I was at that point kind of tired of, you know, the security game.

[00:12:53] But I was just getting started on company building. So yeah, got into that room. It's asked Academy was the first place that I could truly

[00:13:03] you know, talk about the things that were exciting me and worrying me. And I do that around my friends and family but two minutes into the conversation their eyes glaze over right there.

[00:13:10] They just they don't have that familiarity. And I went the first day of the intensive like I remember we started like 9 am.

[00:13:15] And it was like 9 30 at night that I was just we were talking back, you know, back to back conversations with people who got it who understood the joy and the struggle of building this

[00:13:26] ask company. And then I was hooked pretty early on. Yeah, yeah, having your finding your tribe is huge right really if you're listening this watching right there.

[00:13:36] There is a tribe whatever that tribe is right there's there's tons for MSPs. And you know, your the biggest thing is you're not the only one going through this right I often think man this I'm the only one that's this dumb that's created this problem that can't

[00:13:52] figure out a higher because you know you can look at the news and social media whatever and say like everybody's winning. And I'm the other one that's not so, but you know find find your

[00:14:01] tribe get out there. What was the so what I love about this story is you know, you know, this boiler like as I entered you as you you now have joins us academy.

[00:14:14] So you obviously understood it but what was the was a first thing because you know and you going back what you said what I love is the first two things you said we're trying hope and those are not actions.

[00:14:26] So yeah, I love how it started there. What was what do you recall making a change in mindset or a change in action? What was one of the first things you changed in the business after joining

[00:14:39] this has academy. Yeah, you know it was really interesting a lot of what we do at sass academy is we take these things that you're feeling in the business and you create a framework you kind of put labels and structure to the problem.

[00:14:56] So it becomes much easier to solve when you've defined it like I just recently made a post on Instagram that talked about a problem well defined as a problem has solved and a lot of what we do at sass academy is just defining the problem.

[00:15:10] So I remember you know one of the first things that we learned was this strategy called the rocket demo builder and it was a better way to structure your demos.

[00:15:18] And instead of giving someone a product tour, you would do a discovery to find out where are their pains and opportunities and you would customize the demo you would demonstrate the solution to their problem and that like you felt that before you felt all you've been in a demo like I had been a demo hundreds of times before but I felt like I was boring someone by like showing the

[00:15:39] feature after feature and then that little shift. You know demo conversions go way up another one we did was this.

[00:15:48] We call it the reactivation emailer so at the time in 2017 we had already done a hundred podcasts of those like my main marketing strategy was content marketing we said hey we're going to serve the market so from my 2013 to 2017 we've been publishing content producing webinars producing podcasts like we had helped so many security

[00:16:07] companies that never even use our products like marketing was a strong suit for us and so.

[00:16:12] The demos like hey if you've been pumping equity into the market into the market, you can send a nine word email that just says hey are you in the market for blank into your product or service and man in a single day we had a hundred conversations with people

[00:16:26] that were on our list and they weren't in market at the time that they joined but us just simply making the asses to hey you know is this a priority for you or are you still in market for X.

[00:16:35] You know flood of the pipeline full of deal so it was just lots of things in that you know those are some great sales examples there's a ton around you know I remember training we we have called the

[00:16:47] high-octane team technique and it talked about how to attract high performers and how to enable high performers to own their area of the business and get great results and I can you know the list goes on it was for two

[00:17:02] and a half years I kept building sass academy and you know traction really picked up I'm sorry I kept building silver track and traction really picked up to the point where the beginning of 2019 we felt like the market was consolidating

[00:17:15] tons of tons of investments coming into the space and felt like it was time to consider exiting the company and man if we hadn't been a part of sass academy just you know we're in a room full of people who have

[00:17:28] hundreds of exits before and so like this is the first time you're talking about making a life changing decision and you're the it's we're talking private equity companies that you hundreds of deals a year

[00:17:40] and this is the one maybe the one will ever do in our life let alone like you know the first we've ever done right and so that just the value of the conversations leading up to that you know negotiating

[00:17:50] through the you know getting to the letter of intent going to do diligence yeah tons of value and and having just having that network in that community through those stages

[00:18:01] to tell me back to you signed up right so to me part of the action is commitment you know part of it as you you paid right you party with money that probably means you're going to show up

[00:18:11] yeah and so what changed in you to say I'm going to do things differently I don't I don't know how to do and what I'm doing isn't working you know what's what shifted your mindset and your

[00:18:25] just from a personal level to great question you know honestly I think that it was learning the shift was that you know hard work

[00:18:37] with never in question I was waking up every day and grinding but I was learning a lot of lessons other people are already learned before and so the thing that joining sass academy taught me is the first of many investments I make like that

[00:18:50] you know between you know now and then it's routine part of how I saw problems now but it was the first time that I said who do I know

[00:18:59] that has done this before and can I go get in that room so it's like you think about I would have probably gotten there five or six years later just trying one thing after that so I was getting better at hiring I remember

[00:19:12] you know the high octane team technique helped tremendously but you know in the early days of silver track I remember I made several failed hires and one day I was like you know what

[00:19:23] because everyone made sense on paper like their resumes were great yeah and so at higher home and they wouldn't get the business result and I'm like man what am I doing wrong so I was like you know

[00:19:31] I'm just going to write down the things that I value like what do I the word of the intangibles and I remember sitting in my first interview where I had these five things

[00:19:38] written down a yellow piece of paper I can like see it like it was yesterday and I just asked questions that would tell me if they had that thing or not

[00:19:45] and I started hiring on my values in I caring you know there was some prerequisite of their experience they got them into the interview

[00:19:52] when it wasn't about the skills it was about the values and then my like you know hiring started so I really kick off so I would have probably figured it out over time but joining sass academy

[00:20:01] was like pulling an outcome forward it was like how can I do this you know half the time so I don't know in terms of the mind you know the mindset that shifted

[00:20:10] you know we say all the time like the transformation happens at the transaction when you have to go pay you know make a commitment for $24,000

[00:20:16] there's a way I was showing up in that room that was going to go get you know 10 times that ROI because I took the risk I said hey let me fire the marketing agency

[00:20:26] this we're going to be better off if we do that you know I put my relationship equity and you know trust with my other founders on the line

[00:20:35] and there was no way that I was going to let that fail but that was kind of the burn your ship's moment right yeah

[00:20:45] yeah 100% it's it is that's part of what you know I heard someone tell a story one time they're talking to a friend you've been working with a personal trainer and they're like you know what I just I'm not getting the results that I expected

[00:20:59] and the response was you're not paying enough and so what do you mean well if you are paying more if you hurt more to have hired the person trainer but not

[00:21:13] you know you're not getting the result you would be getting the result so you just not leveraged enough so it's like you know there's a lot of ways that we can create leverage one of them is

[00:21:22] you just pay a high price tax or sometimes if coaching isn't effective it's like well we're probably not paying enough for it because the transformation happens at the transaction

[00:21:30] you need that mindset shift to say I'm going to become the person that I want to become by hiring this coach

[00:21:39] is an enablement tool but like I have got to make the decision that I'm down for that transformation and so yeah I think at the transaction I knew like okay okay I'm going to become a successful sass founder

[00:21:51] like that's what I you know or you know CEO at the time like that's what I'm going to do I'm going to make this this journey and you know

[00:21:59] but you know the soon as a credit card is swiped and I'm walking into the room for that first event like the decision was was already made

[00:22:06] right right that I love that right the change in mindset that I'm going to

[00:22:11] and sure the coaching enables you to pull it forward which is huge right if you don't know what to do then you're stuck

[00:22:19] but also if you didn't change your mindset and also I love what you shared like I am going to right I'm going to be successful sass CEO

[00:22:31] and that you know that changes your mindset it's not I'm going to try or I'm going to hope to or I'm going to do this or that is

[00:22:39] you know it's it's kind of pulling your future self you know in just like you're pulling the those the future

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[00:23:52] I'll say one of the thing that the mindset shifted was there were lots of big public companies you know

[00:24:02] SaaS companies out there that I could look to admire but I always felt like there was something different

[00:24:08] about them than than me right and when I went into the room at SaaS Academy got involved in that

[00:24:13] community you start to see people who are just like you who are getting better results and it just

[00:24:21] kind of creates a hunger there so one belief goes up you're like you're in a room with as

[00:24:25] a couple people had you and what the other thing is different was I knew a lot more than I thought I

[00:24:30] did like it helped with self confidence because I went to an event I remember the first time again

[00:24:34] that first day I'm sitting at a table and I feel like an imposter like I'm like dude I'm not like

[00:24:39] these people and then we go into our first like breakout session and kind of exchanging conversations

[00:24:45] and I realized you know someone asked the question I'm like oh man like here's what I did for that

[00:24:49] and something completely normal to me and they're like oh wow that's super helpful right

[00:24:54] and so your confidence starts to build but then you also like see others in the room who are

[00:25:00] you know couple you know there've got a dozen more team members on there a couple

[00:25:05] more you know couple million head to where you are and it you know it's a motivation in a

[00:25:11] driver to be like oh that guy's just like I am like he's in the same room that I am like there's no

[00:25:17] reason why I can't achieve those same results it's hard to look up to a Mark Banny office

[00:25:21] start sales force and you know you can learn some things from them but you know when I was

[00:25:25] running a million dollars house company I felt like there was a pretty big difference but then I

[00:25:29] get to a room with someone doing like four or five million all right now I can you know I can see

[00:25:33] the path there like and I can actually sit down to him talk to him about it and you know I'm

[00:25:37] out of what they've done yeah a lot more in common than a three billion dollar or whatever

[00:25:43] it was the time and not much larger now what what was scarier making the commitment knowing you had to sell your

[00:25:51] partners and fire this marketing agency or get out of a contract or going to that first event

[00:25:59] and feeling like an imposter. I would say it's probably going to the first event because Dan's

[00:26:08] confidence on the on the sales call was pretty high like there's you know he often says like sales

[00:26:15] was a transfer of enthusiasm and I left that first call being like oh like this will this is for

[00:26:21] sure gonna work out it was certainly installing a lot more enthusiasm and belief than my work with

[00:26:26] the marketing agency was so that was because we've been going sideways and Dan was just like

[00:26:32] you know he was able to call out the paintings like I bet you tried this this and this and when

[00:26:35] you do that here's you know there's the things that are happening like there was a real

[00:26:40] you know I guess assuredness that he had been there and done that and that there you know many

[00:26:45] others in the program that had as well so that was less of a of a risk but man I remember so

[00:26:51] I the first event was in San Francisco I live in San Luis Obispo which is about three hours south

[00:26:56] and the drive up just remember like you know the anxiety just kind of like going higher and higher

[00:27:00] because yeah you just don't feel like you belong in that in that room but I quickly went away

[00:27:05] I was about like an hour and a half two hours and and I was like oh my gosh like this it was a

[00:27:09] kidney candy shop yeah yeah yeah I just I know from my experience joining it the SaaS Academy

[00:27:18] and other you when you're out of your comfort zone when you when you have that pit of

[00:27:25] the stomach feeling you're about to grow right yeah and pain and growth are sometimes a little more

[00:27:33] associated than I would care for but I definitely relate to the imposter feeling

[00:27:40] and and I love what you said because I think that sometimes gets missed because you make the

[00:27:45] commitment and then you I think it's easy to go okay I just lacked some knowledge and a coach gave

[00:27:53] me some knowledge and that's that's it but that commitment that shift in mindset and the belief

[00:28:00] that I'm going to become that successful in your case SAO is all the difference in the world because

[00:28:07] yes there's upskilling and those sort of things but that commitment is just wonderful yeah and lastly

[00:28:14] just kind of on the topic of gaining I think sometimes when you switch you leave out something that

[00:28:20] I think was important which was you showed up and felt like an imposter but in the same first day

[00:28:25] you were kind of like hey I've I know the answer I can help with that yeah in your group of now

[00:28:31] peers some of which are bigger and maybe some of which weren't but that how did that change

[00:28:37] in confidence impact you I'll tell you there's this I don't know where this came from I should probably

[00:28:42] do some I think in a reflecting around this but ever since a young age I was like very aware of

[00:28:51] am I saying no to something or am I not raising my hand or not volunteering because I'm running

[00:28:57] from something or am I saying no because I'm running towards something they're very different

[00:29:04] when you're running towards something you say hey you know what you know no right now I'm not

[00:29:08] going to go out and do xyzm focus on this this goal if you're saying no to avoid fear of embarrassment

[00:29:15] looking like a you know whatever it is like they keeps you quiet the in that setting when

[00:29:21] there's someone shared the challenge if I would have not you vocalized you know hey here's my experience

[00:29:27] on it it's because I'm trying to protect me not because I'm focused on the person like I can the

[00:29:32] the best that I can do in that scenario is trust that I'm in that room for a reason this conversation

[00:29:38] got brought up for a reason and the best that I can do is just share my perspective on it and what

[00:29:43] they hear and what they take away from it is up to them but you know I think I've always just defaulted

[00:29:49] to hey let me just you know be the most at most helpful that I can be and I think that when we get stuck

[00:29:55] when we're hesitant to share or we think you know we don't have something to share it's a lot of

[00:29:59] times because we're like too focused on us and not focused enough on the person the people in the room

[00:30:05] that's man I'll tell you that that was a big shift for me on the networking side and know that a lot

[00:30:09] of the MSPs you get your business into local setting and so I used to hate when I was selling security

[00:30:17] I hated going to like the Chamber of Commerce events and the B&I stuff like I was in all the networking

[00:30:23] groups like and I hated I felt so you know insecure and out of place and the biggest shift that happened

[00:30:29] for me was realizing that that's a pretty universal experience and the antidote to that is to just

[00:30:36] focus on other people just focus on what can I do how are they feeling how are they thinking

[00:30:41] what are their struggle the anxiety in those rooms and insecurity was coming from this like you know

[00:30:48] hyper focus on me and how I'm feeling how others were perceiving me and if I could get you know

[00:30:53] shift that focus to others and making sure that they felt more comfortable my energy shifted

[00:30:59] and I started to experience those rooms differently people experienced me differently so you know I

[00:31:03] think that's what what made me volunteer my point of view on day one in that room was

[00:31:09] hey I even though I'm super nervous and I feel like maybe I'm a fish out of water here

[00:31:15] like I'm just gonna do my best and focus on this person asked a question I've wrestled with that

[00:31:19] you know challenge before let me share what I've done I love that focus on others and not just for

[00:31:26] that right focus on others right is what what what what I want to do but I also can admit like I've

[00:31:31] gone in and be like hey I feel like an imposter the worst thing I could do is open my mouth and let

[00:31:37] them know I am an imposter and and let them know that like I really you know I don't want to be

[00:31:42] the dumbest guy in the room and I'm afraid if I open my mouth I'll confirm that and which like you

[00:31:47] said is is is feeling like an imposter it's inferiority so focusing on others and like you said there's

[00:31:54] a time there's a reason that that came up you happen to know yeah so I love that and I think

[00:32:01] doesn't matter if you're beginning coached or you're just at a being iron chamber event right you

[00:32:06] can get out of your comfort zone especially right if we're you know introverts right and we're saying

[00:32:11] you know I'm not this natural extroverted like it comes in and says all eyes on me type of person

[00:32:19] I think that's really great to just it just resonates if you focus on others you can make it about

[00:32:23] helping them yeah and not worry about myself 100 percent I think saying curious is super important

[00:32:30] you know kid how do I cultivate curiosity but I have a deep belief that there's something in

[00:32:36] that room for me hmm and so if the only thing it is is to push past the your comfortable ability to

[00:32:42] get into the room heck yeah or if you know at another level it's what am I going to get out of the

[00:32:47] conversations or whom am I going to meet when I'm going into those settings I think about there's

[00:32:53] three different outcomes like I guess like targets and I'm looking to get from being in a room

[00:32:59] like that is one there's like new revenue opportunities and that's why we go and we and we go

[00:33:04] to these networking events the second one is there's relationships that will be just make the journey

[00:33:10] more rewarding and more fruitful like who would I who can be a lifelong friend going to the event

[00:33:15] expecting that you can meet one person you were friends with for life and then the third one is

[00:33:20] I'm looking for other people's perspective on reality like the what is there what's their view

[00:33:27] in mindset that is different in mind and what can I learn from that so I think all of those

[00:33:33] things come from a you know playing and staying in a place of curiosity and when you do that a lot

[00:33:39] of those like you know insecurities of hey I shouldn't be in this room where I'm not there yet

[00:33:44] go away people love sharing their experience like if you're just going through them and you stay

[00:33:48] curious you can get a really long way and you might find there's revenue relationship and reality

[00:33:53] opportunities for you to upgrade and become better from you know pushing into that uncomfortable zone

[00:33:58] yeah I love that love that um so I want to go back to something you said earlier challenge

[00:34:05] on this because I love the what are you running from or what are you running toward which I think

[00:34:10] is really powerful um and I want to see if you have an example that you could share you know this

[00:34:17] is the time I was in that and uh you only realized it because of

[00:34:26] hmm what is a good example of this

[00:34:29] you know there's a lot of this around so I've been focused more around sharing more content on

[00:34:44] social media and sharing more about what I'm when I'm learning and experiencing and that has

[00:34:49] confronted a lot of that insecurity because I can go find people who are several steps ahead and

[00:34:56] know more than than I do so it's like okay what am I going to add to the conversation

[00:35:01] so that's an area where I'm saying hey okay why would I you know have made a commitment

[00:35:06] I want to post once every day when I'm you know rolling into a session to shoot some more content

[00:35:12] if I if I you know on a busy week and I see that little two-hour block shoot content it's easy to

[00:35:18] want to punt it and have a great reason to or why that's running from something that's saying hey

[00:35:24] it's not pushing into the uncomfortability so but you know to your point earlier pain and growth

[00:35:28] are very closely associated it's like recognizing oh if I want to continue growing this feeling of

[00:35:35] being uncomfortable is actually it will become normal like when it's gone I'm probably not growing

[00:35:41] and so I think running now there's other times where you need to stay disciplined and it's not

[00:35:46] the season like if that wasn't the season if my focus when I sat down at the beginning of the year

[00:35:51] or the quarter wasn't on producing more content then you know saying no to the things that or saying

[00:35:59] I guess the advice for us because that is the focus I'm saying no to other things right I'm saying

[00:36:05] no to the things that don't help support that goal and so you know someone I mean I get emails

[00:36:11] and opportunities all the time to explore hey what about there's just operations everywhere right

[00:36:18] and so it is saying discipline you're like no this is my area of focus right now so that's I'm

[00:36:23] saying no to those other opportunities because they're not the thing that I'm running towards right

[00:36:29] now but it's like it's being very aware of like what am I running to and when I'm using no

[00:36:34] am I doing it because I'm running towards that thing or am I doing it because I'm running away

[00:36:39] from the fear that I know as associated with growth does that make sense yeah yeah yeah I've got

[00:36:49] I have to at least perhaps start with awareness of am I running from this or am I running toward

[00:36:55] this yeah because I can completely relate earlier on my business instead of the couple hour

[00:37:03] block of food content like you're saying had the couple hour block of make co-calls you know and

[00:37:08] that sort of thing and I was like I'd rather do my taxes or go get a root canal I don't know

[00:37:13] you know I mean like at the beginning I'm like this like I could find any reason to point

[00:37:18] and so yeah I can very much relate like oh this is uncomfortable I don't want to do it but once

[00:37:23] you get and develop that rhythm you start to go okay if I did that then the next time it's producing

[00:37:30] content now I'm uncomfortable again but I did that the prior time so I can you know it's still

[00:37:38] gonna be uncomfortable but I can I'll survive I can do this I've done it before yeah build some

[00:37:43] of me in our confidence right totally you know an example of how when this happened just this

[00:37:49] past weekend was I have someone who you know most of our work is remote and I have someone who

[00:37:56] I'm working more closely with remotely and there's a hand going to be passing through your area

[00:38:00] do you want to meet up for dinner and my initial reaction like my reaction all the time to like

[00:38:06] meeting up in person the gut reaction is like no like I don't know I'm a little I can be a

[00:38:11] little more on the introverted side and that's an example of I know in this season I'm I'm focused

[00:38:17] on expanding my network and expanding the relationships that I have like I'm in a season where

[00:38:22] I'm trying to foster more relationships intentionally like that is what I'm focused on and so I'm like

[00:38:28] say running from something to be saying nom man sorry I can't you know I'm busy running

[00:38:34] you know towards something is a push into the uncomfortable and say yes to the opportunity

[00:38:41] thank you for sharing that yeah and I have to say right you

[00:38:46] were this commissionally sales rep you know it's like it's like everybody's by when you read it

[00:38:51] you're like me and I don't know how you ever did that it's hard to maybe even relate to how'd

[00:38:55] you get from 300 something thousand in that company to CEO and 3 million plus

[00:39:00] um but I think you know I kind of thought well man he's just that naturally extroverted like

[00:39:07] you know guy and uh and you know you're the chief revenue officer for

[00:39:13] so I said Academy and yeah this bigger than life Dan Martell and this sort of thing so

[00:39:17] I think it'd be easy for me to say you know you must be this just naturally extroverted like I'd

[00:39:21] love to so um I appreciate you sharing that what do you do to you know I'm an introvert too

[00:39:28] what do you do to push out of that and say you know what this is the right thing to do without

[00:39:33] just saying yes to everything because like you said you still have to say no to a lot maybe most yeah

[00:39:37] there's a couple of things so one you I would the couple things so one like know what I'm running

[00:39:42] towards a lot of times man it is so anxiety producing to not have that defined because you

[00:39:51] you have phomo of everything mm-hmm like you feel like you then there's no way to win unless

[00:39:57] you say what am I saying yes to there are too many things that are come in like you just take 15

[00:40:03] minutes and scroll through when you social media you're gonna find all these different strategies

[00:40:06] and hacks and things you could be doing you feel like oh my god if I don't do that I'm a failure

[00:40:10] yep that part of my business broken that part is broken that part is broken so like saying what

[00:40:15] am I focused on right now gives me the permission to be like now right now eventually one day

[00:40:21] and I put it in the parking lot and I say you know if I'll come back to that when I have this like

[00:40:26] cadence of annual planning quarterly planning weekly review and so that's the first thing

[00:40:33] that so defining what I'm running towards the second thing is you have to intentionally build the

[00:40:39] muscle of doing something that's uncomfortable in an area a domain for me where I routinely build

[00:40:45] that is in the fitness domain like I'm constantly going into a place where I don't want to like

[00:40:52] there's always a mental negotiation wake up if I don't wake up if I don't work out in the

[00:40:57] morning it's not happening so like you know wake up and there's a negotiation oh man maybe

[00:41:02] not today all it's been a hard week whatever it's like nope I'm gonna go do it so like you always

[00:41:07] are you have to figure out a domain in knowing that our minds are going to keep us where we're at

[00:41:14] today keep us safe and so a part of pushing into being exceptional to growing is going to be

[00:41:21] worrying against that now where can I go train that intentionally where can I train the ability to

[00:41:27] push into uncomfortable and just fitness is a amazing proxy to it it's so wild how frequently

[00:41:33] I think we can chalk it up to oh it's just something like richer successful people do they always say

[00:41:38] that thing but it's like there's you can look at whether it's cold plunging whether it's you know

[00:41:44] fitness they're using it as the gym for training the uncomfortable you're worrying against the

[00:41:51] mental chatter in the other areas where they need growth and so like man that's been a huge one

[00:41:55] for me is just saying I mean I was just doing it this morning I remember I'm like I'm middle of a

[00:41:59] you know 20 cataball swings and 11 and I just want to set it down and I'm like no I'm just going

[00:42:04] to keep when we're pushing through it and you know when I get to the 20th I'll be glad that I did

[00:42:09] and I'm gonna use that muscle later on when I'm talking to Damien or later on when

[00:42:13] you know whenever whenever opportunities come where say hey maybe I should shrink back from

[00:42:17] the mental chatter once they keep me in the comfort zone it's like no no let's go push into the

[00:42:22] you know engine the uncomfortability because I know there's something for me there so yeah I think

[00:42:26] that those are the two biggest it's probably lots to go into it of like how do I go do the thing

[00:42:34] that needs to get done but a lot of it's that vision and being connected with why and then having

[00:42:39] an area where you're actually training that muscle of doing the thing that needs to get done

[00:42:43] you know discipline over motivation you know motivation is gonna be fleeting but the discipline of

[00:42:49] no I'm dedicated to being you know the best version of myself and right now that means

[00:42:54] I've do this thing regardless of how I feel. I love that yeah the last year or so I've been on

[00:42:59] that journey because I was like you know I will get to when I get to it I'll work late you know

[00:43:04] I gotta I gotta grow the business I gotta be there from wife I gotta take care of my kids all

[00:43:09] important things yeah and not in that order and fitness and health were you know they were

[00:43:16] there's something I put on the back shelf and for me it's some of the things that we're doing

[00:43:25] business they just they take a while and I'm so impatient you know you start doing it and you

[00:43:30] start spinning that flywheel and it's months you know sometimes it's only weeks but often it's

[00:43:35] months or nearly a year or something before you really start to see in the fruit of your your

[00:43:41] effort and so so it's helped me tremendously to not only be healthier but you know just committing

[00:43:48] to getting up and exercising and doing it and and sure I'm in better shape and that's that's

[00:43:56] wonderful but it's that mental muscle and I just personally will say at what I've enjoyed is like

[00:44:04] that is something I can see a much more immediate you know it's not like the first day you

[00:44:10] you know swing quit kettlebells you can see you know this bicep or something all of a sudden but

[00:44:16] you uh um it's easier to control if I do it or not then the first social media poster too I

[00:44:25] start making is going to do you know do well when you know it's a commitment so I love the fact

[00:44:31] that you know that that you got to make that a priority dude it is it is wild how many times

[00:44:39] like if I have a team member that's not really performing well if we focus on the physical

[00:44:47] if we say hey what are your daily habits are you getting into the gym it is wild how they show up

[00:44:52] not only better in the work world but in every other area it's because it's building like

[00:44:57] discipline is needed to be at our best in every area like if you want to be an amazing dad

[00:45:03] you want to be amazing husband you want to be amazing business leader like you are going to need

[00:45:07] discipline you are not always going to feel like it you know the number of times that I've like

[00:45:11] exhausted all the energy uh you know I work upstairs I walk downstairs and I'm at zero but I have

[00:45:17] want to be a 10 out of 10 dad and I got another four or five hours my kids are waking like this is

[00:45:22] the first time we had a chance to engage like yeah it's gonna it's motivations on always going to be

[00:45:27] there and so like where else what other tools do you have there I'm sure there are other ones but

[00:45:32] man it's you know it's universally effective if you'll go develop it you're not just training your

[00:45:37] body in the gym you're training your mind and I love the physical domain of because it's so

[00:45:44] controllable right like you it's used it is that teaches delay gratification it's funny like as

[00:45:50] a parent too you can see that in your kids like okay how could I make sure that my kids have the

[00:45:55] most choice in life if my job as a parent is to just open as many doors for them as possible

[00:46:03] like one of the things I need to teach them is delayed gratification how do you like work

[00:46:09] for something over a long period of time that's right to achieve it and so it's like all right well

[00:46:16] you know what what domain would I would I train that in and you know of course how do I train that

[00:46:21] in me yeah and I think that that's where the physical was so so important yeah for sure so

[00:46:29] um if two kids I believe how hold are they three I got three is eight

[00:46:35] soyer is five and summit is five months wow yeah he sounds like you're a lot going on that's

[00:46:42] amazing yeah I've three kids who I can totally relate to uh I want to show up and be it uh the

[00:46:49] dad that doesn't finish the day and then sit on the couch the rest of the day you know yeah and uh

[00:46:54] and consider that at the end of my day um the end of working hours um that is that is really cool

[00:47:02] I wanted to get to another part because we're talking about challenge so um

[00:47:08] you did something that most people never do which is not only build the business but exit

[00:47:12] silver track um and you've exited it and um how did you go from that to I'm going to join

[00:47:24] to ask Academy yeah cool um so the exit process was a long

[00:47:32] and and at times very taxing one it took us nine months from the time we signed the letter of intent

[00:47:38] we are in due diligence for nine months and we sold it in November 2019 so if you think about

[00:47:43] where the world was at in 2019 like very fortunate that we you know tied those loosens off before

[00:47:49] we went into covid fortunately you know security was pretty resilient to to that but to covid

[00:47:57] but it was still it would have been very challenging to go through you a silver track you

[00:48:01] continuing to operate silver track through covid so um you know for the next year and a half

[00:48:08] I stayed engaged with sass academy when we exited you know called Dan and told him and you know

[00:48:13] celebrated I was like hey man I don't have as much of a use for sass academy on the business from

[00:48:19] right now but like I love this community and I want to stay apart in some capacity so we figured

[00:48:24] out a way to you know to stay involved you know for me to stay in the community and so I did that

[00:48:28] for about a year and then he called me up and he's like hey I'm looking for former founders and

[00:48:33] you know successful CEOs that have done the thing before to coach in sass academy all it looks

[00:48:39] like is at the time we had kind of a group of experienced founders and CEOs that you could book 30

[00:48:46] minute calls with and so I was like sure man I'm down for that like all I'd love to if I can help

[00:48:51] someone like I consider it fun so I did that for a little bit but I'm an all-in kind of

[00:48:56] personality and so I was like man I don't want if I don't want to just want to like coach on the

[00:48:59] side of I'm going to coach I want to be like I want to coach it's all I want to do I want to focus

[00:49:03] on showing up I felt like I just barely scratched on the surface so that ended up not being yet so

[00:49:08] anyways we I talked to Dan probably every two to three months or so and he'd always just say hey

[00:49:14] how are things going what's what's it like so I wasn't we were acquired by our private equity

[00:49:18] company and I became the VP of customer success of the big company so overnight we go from 25

[00:49:24] employees to 250 and I'm leading the customer success team about like 50 55 people in North

[00:49:31] America for this the strategy was they bought multiple companies all in the same industry and

[00:49:36] rolling them all together so I have like customer success team supporting multiple different products

[00:49:41] and we're figuring out this migration strategy of how to consolidate them all into you know to one

[00:49:45] platform and at the same time working through COVID so we have a reduction in force and we you

[00:49:51] know layoff several people and I just kind of got pretty tired of how slow and things you know

[00:50:01] how slow things work at 250 person company like I just wasn't experienced enough to realize like

[00:50:06] you know not every company can operate like a startup now I realize it you know it's sassy academy

[00:50:12] I lead a team of about 50 people and I and now I'm aware of the in between what happens in between

[00:50:16] 25 and 250 and why do you start moving a little slower and being a little bit more deliberate with

[00:50:21] what you're doing but yes state in touch with with Dan throughout that process and one day it was a

[00:50:27] wall time phone call and he's like hey I'm looking I need to bring someone on to come run our customer

[00:50:31] success teams we've got three programs I need someone to just manage our customer success experience

[00:50:36] and I want to know if you're interested and at the time that would have to you know had to leave a lot

[00:50:41] behind you know stock in the new company and it just ended up like I took a big big risk in doing

[00:50:49] it and I remember Dan saying like I'll do my best to mitigate the risk but you just got to have

[00:50:52] to trust me that I can make your life a whole lot bigger and you know help you achieve a lot more

[00:50:58] what you want to achieve on this side it's not going to be it's not going to be an immediate step

[00:51:02] forward it's going to feel like a step back but trust me and man if you think about you've you've

[00:51:08] seen you sort of the dancer jectery in the trajectory of SAS Academy Academy hadn't even written

[00:51:12] buy back your time and you know join the team in 2021 April 2021 and so so glad I joined just

[00:51:22] to run our customer success team and this theme of like entrepreneurship follows me throughout my

[00:51:26] whole career you know I show up in that room only responsible for customer success by Rihanna's

[00:51:31] we have opportunities and you know issues on our marketing team and so I start you know hey what

[00:51:36] if we did this what would we do that let me help here you know we get to a transition and leadership

[00:51:40] he's like are you Johnny run customer success and run marketing and then you know the couple

[00:51:44] months go buy sales start you know marketing works really well you break sales and we're like hey

[00:51:50] you know we need a new sales sales leader and so take over our sales department so all throughout

[00:51:56] I think there's a theme of just saying hey like whether it's my responsibility or not I show up

[00:52:01] like an owner like I show up like it's my problem and I'm sourceful and in the business of building

[00:52:08] the business not necessarily like staying in my lane and you know you know just punch in the

[00:52:14] clock it's like I'm interested in the outcome and the mission that we're after here.

[00:52:19] So you didn't say these words but I want to see if this is what happened because I know as a

[00:52:25] startup that is growing it's obvious often I need the person and I'm not quite there yet. I

[00:52:32] already have the problem but I'm not where I can make sure the big company you know can pay

[00:52:36] in a whole lot different way than it started so often it's like wouldn't you like to take a step

[00:52:41] backwards in pay at a essentially smaller aka riskier company would you like to make less money

[00:52:48] short term and do more work so maybe that's not how he put it but was that was that essentially

[00:52:54] kind of what that was from a short short term perspective. Yeah basically I mean like you know he

[00:52:59] starts off the conversation by being like what do you want to be doing in five years from now

[00:53:03] and so he's connected with like what I want what my motivations are and you know I think that we

[00:53:12] can that conversation if if I was coaching you and how to have those conversations with other people

[00:53:18] I would say look there are two different roles in the work in this all roles fall into two categories

[00:53:23] you're either a pioneer or you're an operator operators want to know the job description they want

[00:53:29] to know what 10 out of 10 looks like and they want to be able to come in and run that you know run

[00:53:34] that play every day whether in sales marketing customer success product they want stability they

[00:53:41] want to know what a good job looks like and they want to be able to come in and deliver pioneers

[00:53:46] love the ambiguity they love the building if they do the same thing for six months in a row they

[00:53:51] get bored like they want the progression and I'm a pioneer I want if I'm doing the same thing six

[00:53:56] months in a you know six months from now I've done it wrong and I'm probably like back to the

[00:54:02] drawing board I might be solving the same problem and I'm solving it in a whole new way because I want

[00:54:07] that progression so I've either built myself out of my role and I've got someone else in or

[00:54:12] you know I've created new problems for the business you know if you solve marketing you create sales

[00:54:17] problems if you solve sales problems you create success problems so you know typically we'll find myself

[00:54:23] you know hungry for that progression and that's what the Lurosa's Academy was was like I was in a

[00:54:31] role where I knew it was an operator role like when I tried speaking up in executive sessions and

[00:54:36] saying hey what if we did this what would we do that like it was like no we stay the course stay

[00:54:39] the course and it was just progressing so slowly by my standards company still successulated

[00:54:45] a great job like you know it just wasn't the right role for me again it was more of an operator

[00:54:50] role I like pioneering and that's what you know SAS Academy and Dan presented the opportunity for

[00:54:56] so you know I think it's that's a huge part of hiring is like putting the label on the bottle

[00:55:01] what are we really looking for here and if you you shine that light bright enough you're right people

[00:55:05] you're gonna track the people who are right fit for that job yeah I love her saying putting the label

[00:55:10] on the bottle because I was just thinking like I know sometimes I used to say I can't get that

[00:55:18] person that I really need because they're at the big company and life must be the grass must be

[00:55:23] greener I know they can throw money at it so if they want to outpay then they could win that

[00:55:29] if they chose but I love how you know what it made me think is you can get the right person

[00:55:34] because if it's the right season and the right fit then your culture and the trajectory

[00:55:43] of the company along with the fit can can beat you know giant companies that move more slowly

[00:55:51] 100% oh there's definitely there is definitely a profile of a person that wants to be

[00:56:00] solving the problem at the stage of company that you're at they're they will be super excited for

[00:56:07] so much of like of work is the the way I view compensation is it cannot detract like there can't

[00:56:15] be such an imbalance that I feel like at the end of the day I'm overextending myself and

[00:56:21] that it's not reciprocated but reciprocation comes in a lot more forms than just compensation

[00:56:28] like me getting the opportunity to work on a problem that excites me and invigorates me is so

[00:56:33] incredibly rewarding like think about like I want to walk downstairs and be a tenant it's in

[00:56:37] dad if I'm doing something all day that produces energy and joy and excitement like I'm much more

[00:56:42] likely to do that than to suffer through a job that pays me 75k more a year you know that I hate

[00:56:48] the work that I'm doing I mean that was the that was the scenario I was not a great dad when I was

[00:56:53] like in the operator role I wasn't a great anything I was super frustrated my wife you know

[00:57:00] fortunately you know was there and super supportive throughout that season but there's a lot more

[00:57:07] than it comes down to compensation so I think you know when we talk about putting the label on

[00:57:12] the bottle it's like describing where are we going like what is the impact and the purpose of our

[00:57:18] company and what is how what's the role that you're gonna play in this if you decide to take this

[00:57:22] role so I try to like I say start every interview conversation with just as much an interview for

[00:57:29] you as it is for me I want you to know exactly what you're getting yourself into if we get to the

[00:57:33] part you know point of the process where we extend an offer letter so like any question for you

[00:57:38] to understand that this to be you not ask them like what would a 10 out of 10 next role look like

[00:57:43] for you and you know many of our conversations can stop right there because it's just not this isn't

[00:57:48] what they're looking for so yeah always believe there's a person out there perfectly tailor made

[00:57:54] for the problem that you're trying to solve right now the position you're hiring for and when

[00:57:59] you find that person man the business takes a step forward like every hiring opportunity is an

[00:58:04] opportunity for your business to take a big step forward the right person in the right seat makes

[00:58:08] it you know world of difference yeah yeah I couldn't agree with you more you're to me I'm

[00:58:13] I've always been one person away from changing the whole trajectory of not only business but my life

[00:58:18] because it impacts our shop like you said as a dad how I show up to my wife how I show up in the

[00:58:24] energy level and yeah you just get the person that loves that that's so much better at it

[00:58:32] that I want to hit pause on that because I want to come back to that but I want to ask one thing

[00:58:37] I'm sure it was super exciting and flattering on top of urging your mouth just to

[00:58:42] basically have an offer to join Saskatchewan from Dan but before I'm gonna go back to

[00:58:48] earlier we're talking about being in posture we're talking about not being enough I don't know if you'd

[00:58:51] fixed all that but did you have any of that one it's like this is the guy that's been I've been

[00:58:55] looking up to you this is Dan Martell that's asking me to join him am I am I ready am I enough

[00:59:00] I don't did you go through any of that um a little bit but it was almost like dude I remember

[00:59:07] they go back to that first event like when I walked in that room I'm telling you like there was a

[00:59:11] knowing that this was a room I was gonna be a part of and I didn't know what it would look like but

[00:59:15] man for the last like two or three years that I was working at SilverTrac like I knew the next

[00:59:19] thing I was gonna do is a SAS Academy I just couldn't think of or get excited about anything else

[00:59:24] mean think about on one hand I was like oh my gosh I just did the thing that so many of these

[00:59:29] founders do I actually go start a SAS company right and like but nothing got me excited about like

[00:59:35] I just I don't know I just like there was a knowing that this was the next path for me and so on

[00:59:40] one hand yeah it was super it was flattering in fact if there's a there's a podcast we did for the

[00:59:47] SAS Academy podcast we did one with Dan both Matt Verlach and I the COO and the CRO we had very

[00:59:52] similar stories we were part you're both clients of SAS Academy and both were a part of Dan's list

[00:59:57] of hey one day I'm gonna work with this person in every two months I'm just gonna call him and

[01:00:02] check in on him I don't know how I'm gonna work with them I don't know what it's gonna look like but

[01:00:05] this is someone we have got shared values and or you know I think we're going the same direction and

[01:00:09] so I'm just gonna nurture those relationships so it's like Kudos to Dan for like having you

[01:00:13] know continuing to nurture that relationship because it would it would have been any surprise to me for

[01:00:17] him to be like hey you're not a client anymore like you know it stays focused on on his on his clients

[01:00:23] who he's actively working with but he you know he kept on nurturing that relationship so it was

[01:00:27] that paired with to get the job we do a test project and so it's essentially like you're trying to

[01:00:34] simulate you know for up to 10 hours you're gonna work on essentially what you're going to do when

[01:00:39] you take the jobs it's almost like a running start into onboarding so they asked me you know

[01:00:43] the gaming are the top three challenges and they were like you know created 90 day plan and so

[01:00:49] I got for you know for ten I probably spent more than 10 hours on them I got to like really sink

[01:00:54] my teeth into this challenge and when I presented it their response and you know my confidence in

[01:01:02] the solutions I put forward like made it feel a lot less scary than if I hadn't got a chance to work

[01:01:07] on it ahead of time you know I mean like I was like do I already know the playbook now I know I

[01:01:10] understand when I'm getting again like I got all the company financials like I knew ex-

[01:01:15] all the like your scorecard KPIs how the business performing like I knew exactly what I was

[01:01:20] getting myself into there would have been a lot more anxiety if it was just the phone calls with

[01:01:24] Dan and I don't know like is the business performing well we're fresh off of COVID a bunch of companies

[01:01:29] light laid you know clients off like I was leaving you know mid six figures in stock options on

[01:01:36] the table like I left what could have and what has now since that time has turned into like you know

[01:01:41] millions of dollars on the table I left it on the table so I think it was a big decision to go

[01:01:45] you know leave that but like there were so many components of that recruiting process it just made

[01:01:50] me feel confident that this was the right next we have one it was a problem I wanted to solve two

[01:01:55] I knew exactly what the business looked like and what my role in it would be I knew I was confident

[01:02:00] my ability to contribute and yeah I was also confident like Dan is just he's got a strong growth

[01:02:06] game like they said you guys different every 12 months so Mike you know there's a this saying that

[01:02:11] as a founder your vision has to be big enough for your team's vision to fit in inside of it and

[01:02:16] I'm like you know Dan's vision is pretty big so you know my vision fit quite nicely right inside

[01:02:22] what he's trying to build sass academy I love that a lot of philosophies one of the biggest

[01:02:29] processes we ever built but at least before sass academy was higher we just believe if you don't

[01:02:33] have the right people you don't have a company yeah and and and not just the right people but

[01:02:40] just your one right person way from changing everything for everybody and so we also do a test

[01:02:46] project as part of the hiring process which you know I've later was kind of shocked to learn this

[01:02:52] is not the typical yeah but I love what you just said because I'd always viewed it from the

[01:03:01] let's do rescue from both sides in terms of let you know because people that interviewed

[01:03:06] all along the way had all this experience you know when you're down to last few candidates they all

[01:03:10] looked similar and then you have the test project and there's no more similarities the data show

[01:03:16] up differently and so I viewed as de risky for both sides because I don't want to have the wrong

[01:03:20] person certainly but also they don't want to join and then you know leave a month or two in nobody

[01:03:27] no neither vice once that so I viewed it from that angle but I love where you just said right you

[01:03:32] what I hadn't considered is you had the clarity about the business you have the confidence

[01:03:39] to understand it because they were willing to be transparent about where they were all the way

[01:03:44] down the financials and KPIs and also like I think most people look at hiring is more or less a

[01:03:51] one-way street you know where the power is in the company or the hirers side so I love that they

[01:03:59] gave you all of that and you know basically the problems the three problems right whatever

[01:04:04] whatever they're talking what they thought they're issues or which are opportunities or problems

[01:04:08] depending on which side of the coin right and so I love that they gave you that because now there's

[01:04:13] not a prize when you walk into it you know what you're getting into you can make that decision

[01:04:19] with both eyes open yeah or not especially like because that's what I love like you know

[01:04:26] how do I walk away from millions and stock options right that that could be it's a that's a

[01:04:30] loaded question right there right yeah and uh so um I just hadn't seen the other side of the uh

[01:04:37] you know I knew that people got more excited and as they dug into our company and our culture

[01:04:41] doing the project got them more excited but I love the whole gosh I have confidence

[01:04:46] yeah have more understanding I have all these things yeah oh it's it's it's so important I'll tell

[01:04:52] you a cool thing that we've developed when we do our test projects now is well typically have more

[01:04:59] than one person on to review the test project um so the the way the test project worked is we give

[01:05:03] them a prompt typically three three problems they get up to 10 hours to work on it they submit their

[01:05:08] file ahead of time and then we bring them all in live to say hey this is like math class I got your

[01:05:13] answers but now I want to know I want you to show your work tell me you know your your thought

[01:05:16] process behind this I'm gonna give you the mic for 30 minutes you walk through each one we'll save

[01:05:20] all of our questions and I'll typically have like three to five people on reviewing I want to have

[01:05:25] a couple of their peers who are they gonna work with their direct manager for sure you know typically

[01:05:30] if it's a senior leader you know CEO and executive leadership team are there so I want to have a good

[01:05:35] panel there to review the test project and then when I say at the beginning of the hour we'll

[01:05:41] block off an hour for this I tell the candidate hey the last 10 minutes is reserved for us as a

[01:05:45] team to debrief so don't be surprised when we end early it's by design you know we'll go 50 minutes

[01:05:50] and and then what we do is we as soon as the candidate jumps off the call I say all right no

[01:05:58] no discussions I want everyone to open up your chat window in zoom and you're gonna type in a number

[01:06:03] from one to 10 on their fit for this role and you can't choose number seven seven's a cop out

[01:06:09] it's like middle of the road I then want you like north of seven south of seven everyone's

[01:06:13] gonna type it in and then I'm gonna count to three and we're all gonna hit enter and so then

[01:06:19] ever you get to see everyone because sometimes a lot of the voice in the hiring manager might say

[01:06:22] oh there are nine and then everyone else thinks there are nine are great fit so it gets everyone's

[01:06:26] like true sense of this this person's fit and and it's so exciting when you get everyone going

[01:06:32] like 9s and 10s you like heck yeah we got our person and then you might find you have some

[01:06:38] range and then now we say oh we've now found that we have different values in who you know what is

[01:06:44] important in this role you know and so yeah it's just such a the test project is such an

[01:06:49] important if hiring is your opportunity to step the business you know significantly forward

[01:06:54] you're engineering this opportunity to you know that the team is basically hiring and

[01:06:59] receiving this person into the organization they know they've had a chance to earn it like no

[01:07:03] other role is making you earn this position like we are so there level of commitment and excitement

[01:07:10] and belief that they're the right person for the role on day one yeah I can't say enough

[01:07:14] but if you're not doing a test project you gotta be doing it because it's it's so rewarding for

[01:07:18] the candidate and for your team to go through that process that you know day one you fast-tracked

[01:07:24] all of that way earlier on in the risk of you making a bad hire and having done all that stuff

[01:07:29] is like you're really really low yeah yeah I love that thank you Johnny um there are folks that

[01:07:37] I feel like have talked to about this and they're they kind of get it for like a management

[01:07:42] sea level hire but you know I feel like then at the same time they go back and say well

[01:07:47] for example as an MSP any more engineers I like a more deal or I don't know they have another

[01:07:51] engineer and like they cater but it's also just like when I land the deal I need an engineer

[01:07:57] or something like that or for every two deals or three deals I need another engineer so there's

[01:08:02] there's more common ones where it's you know yet another person and they're not necessarily the

[01:08:07] leading the company you know my belief is that they still are impacting the culture of the company

[01:08:12] the clients or changing your world so um yeah what would you say to folks you know just that are like

[01:08:19] I don't know if I should do a project because it's you know it's it feels different when it's like

[01:08:23] you know here's our all our problems you know present how you're gonna come on and solve this

[01:08:29] in 90 days versus um still very important hire but you know at the you know direct line level

[01:08:36] yeah we do it for everyone we do it for everyone like I do not I don't want anyone taking

[01:08:42] the job thinking that it's just a job so if you hire like everyone else they're gonna assume

[01:08:47] you're like everyone else like from the first from the application we have them submit a one minute

[01:08:52] video you know like so they you've created a loop a loom video plug your phone and answer three

[01:08:59] questions like from the very beginning of our process we're sending the signal that we are not

[01:09:04] like the others if you're just looking for a one click apply and you're looking for a job you got

[01:09:08] to go somewhere else like you have to believe that you the company is the sum of the people yes

[01:09:15] so what you're engineering team imagine you have your best person if you could clone them 10 times

[01:09:20] if everyone on your engineering team was showed up like that person dead how much different

[01:09:24] would the business be exactly where the best engineer you've ever talked to so if like if you

[01:09:30] realize this is for probably a lot of the MSPs that are listening they still think they're playing

[01:09:35] the game of being a great technician but there if you are the founder and you want to grow

[01:09:41] you know you're building a company and so people is like such an important part of this process

[01:09:46] so if you need and security it was the same way where as soon as you landed the deal it's like which

[01:09:52] one comes first my supply or the demand and there's always this like back and forth oh no we

[01:09:58] landed this huge contract we need guards on site in 20 days we have to go hiring so sometimes

[01:10:02] it's like we're just going to take the warm body like you just got it we got to have someone to start

[01:10:06] that day so I was saying you know engineering the earning potential of an engineer is you know certainly

[01:10:13] more than that of a of a security officer I would say hey this warrants us having a talent pipeline

[01:10:20] I need to know every single engineer in this city I need to know the best of the best and

[01:10:24] I need be nurturing our relationship with them because if I could do that like almost every other

[01:10:28] problem goes away I think about the number of problems you're solving in your daily business right now

[01:10:33] and how many of them would be gone if my engineering team was the best in the city

[01:10:40] right so it's probably a lot of them so you know it's worth me taking the time that's

[01:10:44] that goes back to that infusion soft example of like am I going and hunting and killing the one for

[01:10:49] today I'm rebuilding the fence that allows me to bring them in like I want to be known if I'm an MSP

[01:10:54] I want to be known as the best place to work because if I'm in the best place to work my client's

[01:10:59] satisfaction is going to be through the roof I got to track the best of the best talent and think

[01:11:05] about what are all of the things that deliver value for an engineer comp is not the only one I promise

[01:11:10] you work humans it is not the only one they like working with people that are like them you know

[01:11:15] they there's uh oh yeah I could go on to this for for for days but um I'll pause I come up for

[01:11:22] air there I think it's super important man I wouldn't if you have a limiting belief right now

[01:11:27] around oh that doesn't apply to me because of x you're limiting the potential of your business

[01:11:33] yeah I think in the last part really drove the nail home uh I think and um I I love that because

[01:11:41] uh so many of my species I talked to they um I wouldn't say that they they're not trying

[01:11:49] to hire well but what I would say is they're like we're actually the best now it's hard to communicate

[01:11:54] that to the client but we are the best and whether they are or they still believe it and uh

[01:11:59] and we have a great team that's usually what they cite and so um and then I think part of what's

[01:12:05] easy in this industry is sure you can lose a client but like it's really painful for a client to

[01:12:10] leave an MSP so turn isn't very high um and so I think you can get complicit or complacent

[01:12:19] and sit there and go wow um you know where where the best because we don't how much turn

[01:12:25] and uh for example our client and we have some raving clients and the other ones they don't really

[01:12:29] say anything and um but no matter how good the customer base is even if it's way better than that

[01:12:35] well I guess my point is they haven't connected that the people are the thing that that drive

[01:12:40] that client satisfaction and so if I need if I'm going to be the best at delivery which is pretty much

[01:12:46] universal goal then I need to be the best at yeah employing and keeping and growing people.

[01:12:56] Yeah you know it's it's probably the best um sales and growth strategy uh and this is what it was

[01:13:04] in in in the security space it's like no one wakes up and says hey I think I want to change my MSP

[01:13:10] like it's produced by pain and so think about when they have pain

[01:13:17] you're either in the right place at the right time so you made a great sales call or you made

[01:13:21] uh you know an email but that's leaving a lot up the chance so the other option is they're going to

[01:13:26] call who else they know and they say hey who are you using and so I would say if you have 10

[01:13:32] customers you have all that you need to have unlimited growth we just have to figure out how can

[01:13:35] what do I need to do for those 10 customers to make sure that every single one of them turns

[01:13:40] into another customer one client turns into another and then again and then it's like I'll have

[01:13:47] everything I need I think you know either you're going to change a ton of your hours because

[01:13:52] you know as a founder it's how you get to the first 10 it's like you are that energy but in at some

[01:13:57] point you have to do that through other people and the only way that you can do that is to make sure

[01:14:01] that you're hiring people in that allow you to you know that that are able to produce the same

[01:14:06] results the same level of care for your clients and if you can do that you know I think that's how

[01:14:11] you you're playing the longevity game it's not going to be this like hockey state growth but if we

[01:14:14] just do that you know one year after a year after five years in 10 years in you have this like

[01:14:21] discipline on who we hire is essentially our sales strategy so like we put a ton of effort into

[01:14:27] getting the best of the best talent you know improving their skillset making sure they have

[01:14:31] opportunities to grow like all of those again it's not just compensation it's like in fact

[01:14:37] we never are the top paying job ever never the top paying opportunity and I want it to be that way

[01:14:44] like I want the I want the person valuing the other parts of what we bring um

[01:14:50] and so I think if you shift into that mindset as an MSP that like all I need is 10 clients to have

[01:14:55] unlimited growth if I showed up and I took care of these clients as if they were going to turn into

[01:15:00] another one like what would have to be true for this one client to turn into another how do I

[01:15:04] grow through referrals and word of mouth you know it's all you're going to find that a lot of that

[01:15:09] a lot of that leads back to the team you're hiring. I love that yeah everybody knows most of the folks

[01:15:17] have talked to you they got to 10 you know they they hustled they grounded they got there they put all

[01:15:20] the hours in and the truth is it's mostly referrals but you know I think we somewhere in running

[01:15:28] around a building business we forget we need you know what I call raving fans we don't just need

[01:15:34] clients we need raving fans that that just love what we do though if they would laugh if

[01:15:41] competitor called and that would be would love to refer us uh yeah one time two times three times

[01:15:48] again and again and uh I love how you taught that too that that's your team that's your people yeah

[01:15:54] yeah I mean you could think there's two great opportunities as an MSP let's just say that it's been like

[01:16:02] six 12 months before there's been any issues at a client site. I want an alert that comes up this is

[01:16:08] hey you probably forgot about us and guess what for most MSPs that's a really good thing like you've

[01:16:13] never you you never had something break so would you mind is there one person that you know

[01:16:18] that you could just share like the work that we've done someone else I'm like would you mind

[01:16:21] just pass it all on you say hey I got a right a really cute witty email that says hey you probably

[01:16:26] forgot about us and that's a good thing right and just make the request can you share this to one

[01:16:30] of the person the other is something breaks and when something goes wrong scar tissue heals stronger

[01:16:37] than the original stuff and so we show up we don't only just meet expectations but we exceed

[01:16:43] them and on the other end of that is like hey you know what I've worked with lots of MSPs and most

[01:16:47] people would have just done X thank you guys for going the extra mile and doing you know why use

[01:16:52] it as an opportunity like really instill confidence in that client you created another bright spot

[01:16:57] in their client journey and then you then make the ask to go to somewhere else like you can't do

[01:17:03] that at scale if you don't have a great team and I think that's a I'm a customer success lead growth

[01:17:09] guy through and through like it's what it's how I think about things at SilverTrack that's

[01:17:13] why you know for so much of my time was focus first on how do I deliver on the customer success side

[01:17:19] because I knew I could scale from there that's what I do it's ask Academy it's like it doesn't do

[01:17:24] us any good to go out and find more clients if we can't win for the ones we got like we got to make

[01:17:28] this an absolute 10 out of 10 for the clients we have and if I stopped turned off all our ads

[01:17:34] it turned off all our content marketing if I just had the customer that had today and that was the only

[01:17:37] way I could grow how does that guide how we you know higher how we invest in our product invest in

[01:17:43] our clients you know I think get a really long way with which is that so you don't have to go to

[01:17:48] those networking events right now you're speaking that language right yeah I love that because

[01:17:53] you know I think at least I'll speak personally customer success for a lot of companies I felt like

[01:18:00] was just the new name for account management which a lot of companies unfortunately is just try not

[01:18:07] to lose the account right just try to keep them happy enough that they won't turn and that was

[01:18:12] essentially more or less like didn't say those words but it seemed like that was the outcome they

[01:18:17] were looking for which you know my point is when you say customer success now I'm fired up I'm

[01:18:22] like yes what you said we all need to do that but in a lot of things when you say customer success

[01:18:27] it's just like you know because personality type was like yours pioneer I want to I want to help

[01:18:33] them do things I want to help them innovate I want to help them be better than they were yeah and

[01:18:37] the the bad versions of customer success is just like just try to hang on you know just try to

[01:18:45] send same emails talk to them once a quarter are you okay yeah you're okay fine by you know

[01:18:51] that what does that do for anybody I can't imagine it gets you excited it doesn't help them

[01:18:57] no no it's most agencies and I would put like you know any type of outsource where when I say

[01:19:02] agency I'm talking about any type of you know core function that you've outsourced

[01:19:07] most agencies have that exact model our margins are improved the closer we are to the cancelation

[01:19:16] I mean we've invested the least amount of resources at least amount of time but we're saying

[01:19:19] above the line where the standard is too low where the clients get a cancel us we stay right there

[01:19:25] so and that's the that's the standard and that's what's expected like the client knows that

[01:19:30] and so what happens if you flip it on its head and say how what's the most amount of value we can

[01:19:35] deliver while still keeping our you know our margins intact like is there an opportunity for me to

[01:19:41] you know hey I would notice an opportunity to like save you guys some some cash or be more

[01:19:45] efficient in this area or you know get twice as much for half the time or half the investments like

[01:19:49] that would be as such a pattern interruption to your client and create that word of mouth

[01:19:57] that you need to grow so yeah I you know customer success as a as a growth strategy I think is

[01:20:03] you cannot run it like you may not have to fully embrace it could be great at sales and great

[01:20:07] at marketing and you'd be great to get them in the door but you know to create that truly

[01:20:13] well you know create longevity and a truly exceptional client experience I think you got to wake

[01:20:17] up and obsess about it every day and make sure hire a team it doesn't seem yeah I love I love that

[01:20:24] so let's let's I could I could spend the whole rest of the day with you Johnny if our

[01:20:28] our calendar is permitted this is awesome I want to know that nugget right which is if you can help

[01:20:33] and flip that and change your mind to and flip it upside down and say what's the most value we keep

[01:20:37] possibly deliver instead of how do we just keep them above the cancellation line that's that's

[01:20:42] a paradigm shift and you won't be like every you will be unlike any other MSP in your market

[01:20:49] because I do business with enough of them to know like they're not bad guys but it's

[01:20:53] that thinking you said they kind of tends to creep in and so that that's a beautiful gift thank you Johnny

[01:20:59] yeah of course man how can people connect with you reach out you follow you join your listen to you

[01:21:08] on your podcast what do you recommend yeah couple spots so if you want to listen to podcasts it's

[01:21:13] you know SaaS Academy podcast you can find it wherever podcasts are at my Instagram is Johnny

[01:21:20] page 13 that is a great spy share a lot of like what it's like to be building the business you

[01:21:26] know run a a a pretty sizable company that's you know committed to sharing what makes us work like

[01:21:33] part of our core values are we you know higher and do the best of anyone in the world and then we

[01:21:39] share that with with our clients like we share how we do what we do so I'm gonna share a lot of like

[01:21:43] how I build the company and run a revenue operation there so yeah man those are two in the website

[01:21:49] sassacademy.com there's tons of free resources and stuff there that apply whether you're a SaaS

[01:21:54] company or not tons of stuff we're on YouTube so yeah Damien thank you so much for having me

[01:22:00] on me this was fun like it's fun to get to call this work this is what's like when you find your

[01:22:03] right seat right spot I mean get to do stuff like this every day so appreciate the opportunity

[01:22:08] to come on and jam yeah this is a blessing guys so Johnny page don't don't miss the opportunity

[01:22:13] to get connected I love the fact that you've got this podcast you're talking about real world I

[01:22:19] also love that you're sharing you know and it's a core value on Instagram about how you're building

[01:22:25] how you're doing this right because it's not always easy and you know you want to understand

[01:22:29] where it is and most of us aren't where your sassacademy is yet and to know what that next level

[01:22:35] or two labels or whatever you know ahead is super helpful so make sure to connect with Johnny

[01:22:41] yeah awesome thanks Damien yeah thank you for tuning into MSP mindset you don't want to miss out

[01:22:47] on future episodes right so make sure to hit that follow button and if you've enjoyed today's

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[01:22:58] until next time keep thriving keep winning and we'll catch you again next week