How a Top 50 MSP Differentiates From the Rest, with Sumeet Sabharwal

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Let the clients guide you, listen to them, spend a lot of time with them, understand their needs.

[00:00:05] [SPEAKER_00]: That's why for us the vertical piece is tremendously enriching because we can be much more focused that way

[00:00:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and really focus on the specific needs of the verticals we're servicing, understand from them,

[00:00:19] [SPEAKER_00]: use them as sound posts for us as we think about our value proposition and the evolution of it.

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey guys, Damien Stevens host of MSP Mindset. On this special edition we are live at Build

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_01]: IT Live 2024 in Orlando, Florida and I got the pleasure of interviewing Sumeet who is a top

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_01]: 50 MSP. He's going to share amazing insights. Don't miss out on our conversation.

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So Sumeet how did you come to be at NetGain and what did you do right before that?

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_00]: First of all thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'm really looking forward to our conversation. I've been blessed into this service

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_00]: provider industry across three decades. I have worked across the spectrum of both being an

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_00]: entrepreneur, co-founding a service provider and running that, working in a larger setup with

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_00]: publicly traded service provider and scaling their international operations so expanding into

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_00]: EMEA, APAC and then really working with a traditional host or with data centers

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and transforming that business into managed services both private cloud, public cloud,

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_00]: running it at scale and exiting that in 2019 to a private equity. And now my latest

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_00]: role is partnering with another private equity and getting into much more of a vertical managed

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_01]: services play. That's something that I... That's an unusual term but let's now that you're in

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_01]: NetGain but tell me a little bit about what you mean by vertical MSP. Sure. So back at

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_00]: in my prior venture which was NaviSide we always used to think about articles but the concept

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_00]: of articles was a cluster of clients that we were providing very similar services to traditionally

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_00]: managed IT services or hosting services and for me the unscratchage was that hey as I look at

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_00]: specific articles there are needs of the vertical both the ecosystem of applications that are running

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_00]: in the vertical, the problems that those verticals are facing that I think a technology provider is

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_00]: best suited to address that right and go deeper at. And so that's really where I created a thesis

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_00]: that especially in the lower mid-market segment which I would roughly define as 50 to 500

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_00]: employees there's a tremendous opportunity to not just bring in the traditional managed service

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and cybersecurity lens but to do that in a much more focused manner where you're really talking

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_00]: about the specific issues and challenges in a healthcare context right the patient experience

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and you know really sort of what can be done to address that what can be done to unlock

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_00]: operational efficiency in the accounting context what can be done to manage more efficiently a

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_00]: stack of 41 plus applications that a typical CPA firm has and and do so at scale how to deal with

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_00]: tax season. So there are very specific issues that I felt were largely not being addressed or

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_00]: being talked to directly not to mention the ecosystem of applications and being able to

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of bring all of those together. So the vertical MSP is your niche but and then what

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_00]: else what am I leaving out? I think when we look at in the context of neck pain today right

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_00]: we're really operating at the intersection of what I would say is four circles one is

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_00]: very vertically oriented so we work in three verticals healthcare CPA accounting is a second

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_00]: vertical legal is the third vertical in those verticals we're bringing together the ecosystem

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_00]: of partnerships the specific application expertise and the knowledge and the know-how so that's one

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_00]: piece is the application the vertical piece the second is public cloud and really as you

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_00]: know a lot of transformations taking place and a lot of digitization and moving away from

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_00]: the transformation of legacy infrastructure into public cloud and really creating a baseline on which

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_00]: you can start to have operational efficiency you can start to have automation you can start to

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_00]: deploy use cases around AI so moving people into public cloud and you know doing that in an

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_00]: efficient manner as the second circle the third is cybersecurity and really bringing a lot of

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_00]: deep competency and both looking at it holistically not just as a set of controls

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_00]: but as a holistic posture across 25 different vectors when we look at it in a client context

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_00]: collecting telemetry increasing visibility so not just addressing it in a reactive but a proactive

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_00]: manner and having a 24 by 7 lens with trained security analysts that are trained to deliver

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_00]: outcomes not alert so that's the third lens and the fourth is you know the 25 plus years of

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_00]: people process technology normalization that it takes to deliver an enterprise grade service

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_00]: so for us is bringing all the four circles together and operating at the intersection

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_01]: of those four circles that is much more than a niche

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_01]: hey guys today's episode is sponsored by servosity I created servosity because I was an msp

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_01]: that lost data then I had to go in front of my client and tell them I can't recover if you've

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_01]: ever been there or worried that you would be there then you may want to take a look at

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_01]: servosity we do two things that nobody else is crazy enough to do we test your backups maniacally

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_01]: do that daily weekly monthly and quarterly for you then we manage the backups for you so you

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_01]: can focus on growing your msp instead of babysitting backups if you're interested in our

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_01]: unlimited storage or immutable storage or any of the things that I'm talking about visit

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_01]: servosity.com so why did you start with healthcare healthcare is where the company got it start

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_00]: you know 28 plus years ago right so the company was always kind of in the healthcare space

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_00]: the founders really saw a tremendous opportunity to back then host EHR provide a hosted EHR solution

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_00]: as you know a lot of ambulatory centers regional clinics lack that scale to be able to kind of

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_00]: host eclinical or next gen and so that became a pretty successful business and then that expanded

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_00]: into traditional managed services as well managing the on-prem infrastructure providing the help

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_00]: desk services so that's where the company got it start was in the healthcare particularly

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_01]: on the provider side interesting so why from your perspective why managed services and why now

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah I think it's when we look at the RY that we step back and say look in the broad you know

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_00]: sort of spectrum all businesses of all sizes across all industries are being redefined by

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_00]: technology right that's an ever-present truth and particularly businesses that are in that

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_00]: lower mid-market segment that I would define as the 50 to 500 employees lack both the economies

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_00]: of scale and the economies of expertise to be able to apply technology in an intentional

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_00]: manner to redefine the business what I say is the enterprise of the future right that's

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_00]: really embracing and adopting technology in that technology today is in context of cloud

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_00]: it's in context of automation platforms tomorrow it's in the context of AI and I think the MSPs

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_00]: are uniquely positioned to make sense of all of this stuff and applied in a context where

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_00]: they can partner with these businesses to shape the firm of the future what's the

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_01]: what do you see the future for an again in terms of growth is that going to be primarily organic

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_01]: primarily M&A what kind of mix would you suspect yeah for us the last four years has been primarily

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_00]: organic growth really focused on the three verticals in each of the verticals being

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_00]: in healthcare be it in the accounting or being a legal segment we are and continue to see a

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_00]: tremendous runway for growth especially in that lower mid-market segment in a sort of north of

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_00]: SMB and south of enterprise there's tremendous white space to be much more focused to speak

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_00]: the language of those specific articles to bring use cases to bear to digitize and take the businesses

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_00]: you know and take the infrastructure into public cloud to normalize that to run it in a more efficient

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_00]: manner to partner with cp firms and bring automation to bear right where we're actually

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_00]: using Azure's power automate platform to digitize and compress you know sort of traditional

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_00]: business processes so i think all of that goodness as an MSP is not in the traditional MSP context

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_00]: certainly there's a aspect of that which is you're running and managing the infrastructure

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_00]: you're securing the infrastructure you're bringing a proactive view of security but really all of that

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_00]: is what i would say is the ground game and the hygiene to build upon to really kind of bring

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_00]: the data together and to say let's start to you know set up what i would call is the base

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_00]: infrastructure to do more interesting things around AI and we're in very early stages there

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_01]: so and you mentioned that you're focused on the vertical you're also focused on public cloud

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and cybersecurity and so from an investment perspective you build out your own sock

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_00]: is that what ended up yeah we actually took the bold step of building out our own sock that was

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_00]: about a year plus ago and really having the expertise operationally of a CISO who's

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_00]: who i've partnered with in a prior lifetime we've run a similar playbook of creating a whole

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_00]: MSSP and a cybersecurity play and so for us i think it's a pretty bold step and one that

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_00]: entails a lot of work and effort and i would not recommend it to anyone that hasn't done it before

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_00]: but for us having the operational expertise having access to talent having access to technology

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_00]: you know having been through it and kind of knowing the play field and you know sort of

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_00]: what to do and having the playbooks facilitated that thinking that hey this is a core part

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_00]: of the value proposition right you know so the security cannot be outsourced as a service provider

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_00]: it has to be brought in-house and you know a lot of my MSP PR CEOs are either have they've already

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_00]: acquired MSSP's or are looking to acquire MSSPs and so for us we spend significant time looking

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_00]: at acquisitions but it just made more sense to go and make that investment today

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_00]: we've got a fully operationalized offering and we're seeing tremendous success

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_00]: in attaching that as a core part of the sale with all our deals right security is no longer

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_00]: an afterthought as much it is a core part of the value proposition and we position it that way as well

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah and building on a sock is super capital intensive and time intensive so most people

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_01]: can't do it and even the folks that can still don't um Q and a curious why

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_00]: why do that I think for a few different reasons one we wanted to make sure that you know the

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_00]: security value proposition was truly integrated into our core value prop right I always say it's

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_00]: less about alerts it's more about outcomes and the outcome is you know delivering a secure

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_00]: posture for our clients that's an expectation that client should have off their service

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_00]: provider that's managing their core IT infrastructure so for us it was very clear that it needed to be

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_00]: a part of that value proposition too is um you know it's all about margin as well and for us

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_00]: it's important that you know we are running a healthy business and we're able to realize the

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of gross margins that we are and security is going to become a big component

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_00]: of the sale if we went out and resold a service number one having that be well integrated number

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_00]: two realizing the same level of margins would be difficult and number three is just having

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_00]: the operational experience and access to it you know in a CISO that's done it before with me

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_00]: in a team that you know we have worked together and was also you know key to us taking that

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_01]: step we've talked about so many things already but what do you attribute to being key to your

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_01]: growth that you've already been a little achieved and you're going to achieve?

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah key to our growth is really I think increasingly having a very consultative mindset

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_00]: with our clients right sort of being partners in that journey and so how we think about

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_00]: you know for most of the clients you can imagine that we're working with they have some level of

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_00]: IT and we always come to the table draw a pyramid and say we want you to focus on the top

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_00]: of the pyramid right we want you to be partners in looking at innovation and enabling your firm

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_00]: so spending time with key stakeholders and end users in the firm to understand how you can

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_00]: make their lives easier looking at what other peers are doing you know we that's where we

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_00]: want you spending time let us go run that old infrastructure let us go secure that so I think

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_00]: there's a tremendous aspect of partnership with our clients and bringing a consultative

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_00]: mindset where they bring the ideas and we bring the execution expertise and we together are able to

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_00]: accelerate not just their digitization but also help them shape that firm of the future.

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_01]: How do you you talk about vertical MSP, public cloud, cybersecurity you got all these things

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_01]: it feels like a almost like a niche within a niche within a niche is that how you differentiate

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_00]: to win these deals or is it something else? Yeah I wouldn't say I mean I wouldn't say it's a niche

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_00]: within a niche as much as you know that's where the puck is going right so you look at a lot of

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_00]: CP accounting firms right you know we're we've do all our reputation as an example in the

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_00]: accounting industry as the Azure guys that's great you know because a lot of them are going to

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Azure already making headway there and so for us to have a forward-looking offering that

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_00]: already takes them there that bakes in the security piece right is streamlining and

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_00]: accelerating their journey more than anything and so how I think about it is hey these are the

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_00]: enabling building blocks and then what becomes interesting is what we do it's not just managing

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and securing the infrastructure but more importantly what we start to do on top of it right bringing

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_00]: the data estate together so that they can start to you know look at potentially deploying specific

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_00]: use cases look at you know sort of deploying their own AI based agents as we think into 25 and 26 I

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_00]: think that's where things become interesting you and I both know that AI is going to be a big

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_00]: game changer in the way all of us work and especially how enterprises get reshaped it

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_00]: becomes a tremendous it's it's less about a replacement of you know talent as much as an

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_00]: enabler of an amplifier of the potential of talent right and so bringing all of that together

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_00]: and helping firms realize value out of that I think is going to be the next chapter for a

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_00]: lot of us MSPs is setting putting the building blocks in place so that we can efficiently

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_00]: work with our clients and help them make sense of all of this what's what would you say is one

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_00]: of your primary challenges right now our primary challenge is how we sharpen our message right and

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_00]: you know sort of get that across so a lot of how we tell our story is always one that

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_00]: you know requires a lot of thought right it's all about enabling our clients to do more and so

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I think differentiating and putting distance from the traditional managed service provider lens and

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_00]: telling our story much more effectively as an enabler of the firm of the future is stuff

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_00]: we're continuing to work on it and iterate on is how we tell our story in the market

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I love that what do you think the biggest opportunity for you right now is

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I think on the cybersecurity side we're continuing to see wild adoption and growth right sort of with

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_00]: really a keen lens on an outcome-based approach visibility dashboards I mean we've got clients who

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_00]: love the visibility that we've created and so a lot of it is enabling that visibility in a

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_00]: self-service model where we're really saying you can just go to the portal and see what's happening

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_00]: in your infrastructure at any given point of time that's part of our roadmap across the next few

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_00]: months is really not just bringing that visibility to them but enabling that in a self-service model

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_00]: creating dashboards helping our clients streamline their own downstream obligations and compliance

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_00]: by automating a lot of that stuff you know these are all ass that our clients have that is

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_00]: you know very much on the cybersecurity and just on the broader security and compliance side that

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_00]: you know continue to feed you know sort of a very aggressive exponential growth right there

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and I mean I'm sure you've looked at the quadrant right there's over a thousand

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_00]: vendors in cybersecurity you know I've lost track across the nine or ten quadrants and

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_00]: if we in the profession often struggle to make sense of them let alone our clients

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_01]: where that's not their full-time job do you see a big consolidation in the cybersecurity space

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_00]: coming or not I think there's consolidation but there's innovation right there's always the

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_00]: yin and the yang so absolutely I see more consolidation in that cybersecurity space and

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_00]: you know I think we're going to go through the typical ideation creation consolidation journey

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_00]: there as well I think the the piece that I focus on is less about the specific technologies more

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_00]: about the outcome piece than so being able to piece all of those together bring all of those into a

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_00]: cohesive orientation is key as an example right you know we didn't even talk to our clients we

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_00]: pulled business email compromise into the core offering without making a big fuss of it right

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and so I think increasingly looking at it and saying what are the other dimensions how do we

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_00]: continue to add value in those dimensions with much more of a our clients pay us to protect them

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_00]: they don't look at business email compromise separate from any kind of ransomware or malware

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: or network based security simplifying that vernacular and doing it much more in a

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_00]: comprehensive solution oriented manner is always the opportunity for us as service providers

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah and then were you saying that you have something like a VCIO or CISO for the different

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_00]: verticals we do do advisory services absolutely the VCIO or VCISO services on the front end of it

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_00]: you know acting as guidance providing what we do is we'll do an assessment of their security

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_00]: posture so we have a very defined methodology of going in and looking at the current controls and

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_00]: the current posture what the policy is there a written policy how is it shaped is that even

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_00]: effective how many people understand it so there's an aspect of discovery and rebase

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_00]: lining up front with clients in terms of helping them articulate what that policy

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and posture should be and how do we make sure then you know the that often is the easy part the

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_00]: harder part is you know getting it past the policy into a manner that is operationally sound

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and manifested in reality on the ground right so that's the ongoing you know sort of service

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_00]: and engagement of working with them to take that written in what is called a Wisp written

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_00]: information security policy and make it much more operational versus just a document that resides on

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_01]: SharePoint seems like there's a tremendous amount of opportunity in front of you how do you prioritize

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_01]: with uh you could do acquisitions you could do um so much more cybersecurity you could

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_01]: spend infinite time on AI you could you could do so many things so how are you approaching

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_00]: all this opportunity right now absolutely you know sort of David you're right focus is key less

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_00]: is more i'm a big believer in less is more and so number one is staying true to our verticals

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and string to to our target market segments so the verticals we're in are the verticals we're

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_00]: in and the target market is the target market and really listening to our clients then making

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_00]: sure that we're addressing their needs and so a lot of what our clients are asking us for

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_00]: is a comprehensive solution that really breaks in the security elements and cyber security

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_00]: elements so that's where a lot of our focus is right now i think in the context of 25

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_00]: it's going to progressively expand into AI especially early on identifying use cases

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_00]: um enabling and doing the the enablement aspects of helping them get their data estate sorted out

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_00]: deploying trials educating and and creating you know training programs for the workforce or for a

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_00]: limited subsection of the workforce i think i see that as a continuous journey in 25 where

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_00]: we're going to start to expand to do some of those things but for now a lot of our focus

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_00]: is on you know the cyber security side and continuing to integrate that much more deeply

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_00]: into our core value proposition of being a public cloud comprehensive managed service provider

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_01]: you mentioned AI a number of toms do you see it as a opportunity or a fear or some of both

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_00]: i think everyone's trying to make sense of it right you know there's a lot of AI washing

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_00]: going on and it's reminiscent of what was it 15 10 15 years ago when cloud and there was a lot of

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_00]: cloud washing going on and some companies even put the word cloud in their name good luck

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_00]: so i think it's similar people kind of jump to it it becomes everything to everyone so i i think

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_00]: we're in very very early stages right reality is we're still moving clients into public cloud

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_00]: still cleaning up a lot of legacy right there's a long tail to that and there continues to be a

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_00]: lot of focus their reality is you know uh password policies then mfa and getting people on security

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_00]: best practices still consumed a lot of oxygen and time and so you know we're continuing to

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_00]: keep our ears on the ground and you know i'm not expecting to AI to be a big needle

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_00]: mover from a revenue perspective but i think certainly as i look at a three-year context of

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_00]: where and how the msp value proposition evolves that's going to be a component what role do you

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_01]: think you'll play in whether maybe policy AI policy pilots and then maybe training and then

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_01]: even just the fundamental one fear like whether it's the the CEOs that you might be selling to see

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_01]: the c-suite or the employees you know i think there's a lot of that fear of like what if my job goes away

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah i think that you and i both know right you know sort of as early adopters and we're

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_00]: playing around with technologies and learning every day ourselves right it's less about the

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_00]: job going away it's more about the amplification of the human potential the way i see it

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_00]: who wants to be creating spreadsheets and validating basics and you know cleaning up

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_00]: syntax and grammar and you know even the research aspects and how those get streamlined so i see a

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_00]: lot of you know basic aspects that get enabled that arguably take a lot of time and you know i see

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_00]: a freeing up of cycles in a redirection of capacity into higher value at a task right

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_00]: hence the amplification of potential is the way i look at gen ai and in uh to be more specific

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and i think it's going to be a continued journey but i think as advisors to our clients right that's

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_00]: why bringing a consultative mindset is so key is our clients looking at us as the technology

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_00]: sherpas not just as the ones that are running the underlying infrastructure but as technology

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_00]: sherpas who can guide them on how to think about ai who can partner with them in early use cases

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_00]: right that's where we work with a lot of our clients and in fact there's a trend going on

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_00]: right now in the accounting profession where um they're hiring cio's but it's not the cio you

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and i would think of the i is innovation they're hiring chief innovation officers

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and so two of our large accounting clients have hired innovation officers

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and we're in early stage conversations with them to say how do we partner with you

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_00]: to make sense of some of this stuff you know policy and ai policy is certainly a place to start

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_00]: but um use cases of you know firm engagement letters you know which means hey let's look at the

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_00]: thousands of engagement letters you've done bring them all together train the model on on how

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_00]: to create a new engagement letter so i think those are natural opportunities that are going to open up

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_00]: right for service providers who are positioned as consultative partners with their clients

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_01]: i think that's great advice for all the msp owners listening what do you think they should

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_01]: be looking at or paying the closest attention to you right now the needs of their client

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and coming across as solution oriented right i think a lot of i say let the clients guide

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_00]: you listen to them spend a lot of time with them understand their needs um that's why for us the

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_00]: vertical piece is tremendously enriching because you know we can be much more focused that way and

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_00]: you know really focus on the specific needs of the verticals we're servicing understand from

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_00]: them use them as sound posts for us as we think about our value proposition and the evolution

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_01]: of it now is net gain always vertically focused or do they start out with the horizontal focus like

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_00]: the typical msp we've been blessed we've always been vertically focused so it was started off as a

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_00]: healthcare msp and we acquired a legal msp so the legal msp arguably over and that's been around

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_00]: for 28 plus years was always vertically focused on the legal side um and uh over yeah a few years

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_00]: we also expanded organically on the accounting cpa side we're structured as three business units to

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_00]: stay true to the vertical focus with three senior leaders that spend 100 of their time

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_00]: thinking about the needs of their specific verticals i love that i love the focus on the client

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_01]: focus on the vertical i think like you said there's a huge opportunity to listen right now

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_01]: because there's so much going on whether it's concerns of your cyber security or concerns

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_01]: over ai or concerns over the economy or concerns over technology and while you may not know the

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_01]: answers like just being engaged in the conversation is still a lot better than some msp's are doing

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_01]: absolutely if you're too busy selling your stack and you know selling skews um what's uh

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_01]: is there anything that you're in particular looking forward to samit you know what i'm

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_00]: really looking forward to is how we ourselves use the potential of automation in ai internally

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_00]: to transform our own msp businesses right so it's i think like to give you an example i'm going

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_00]: through a bootcamp over eight weeks right now right um uh and learning about this stuff and so i think

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_00]: all as msp owners being keen learners is sort of comes with the territory we wouldn't be successful

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_00]: if we weren't intellectually curious and then i think applying some of that in an organic context

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_00]: of our own businesses becomes equally key um so prescribing advice is one thing you know coming

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_00]: across as ones that have gone through the operational aspects of what works and what doesn't work

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_01]: i think is invaluable yeah yeah super valuable paying attention right now leaning in

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_01]: is is the real difference um and is that we've talked so much about ai you bet on cybersecurity

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_01]: in a big way by building out your own sock so from an ai perspective how do you allocate resources

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_01]: because is that something you spend some time on do you dedicate several full-time employees like

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_01]: it's it's hard to know when we're so early like how if i pay too little attention am i missing out

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_01]: if i if i pay too much attention am i kind of uh missing the core of my business absolutely you

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_00]: know and and i think you hit the nail on the head there are a million things to do right you know

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_00]: even if you don't think about ai and just making the business better and that's where most of

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_00]: our cycle and time goes i think on the ai side the approach i've taken is take someone

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_00]: in our company who's deeply passionate about it who also brings that same intellectual curiosity

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and put them on the front end and in our case uh bill sorenson whose rvp of professional services

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_00]: just is very passionate about the topic you know as has spends a lot of his personal time

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_00]: playing around with the technologies played around with all of the large language models

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_00]: he's taken a lot of courses out there and so he's made it his business to learn

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and so partnering with him what we've done is as an example you know enable co-pilot for

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_00]: 12 people internally we have a weekly forum where we exchange best practices hey i try to use co-pilot

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_00]: to look at the gross margin by client and here's what worked and here's what didn't work

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and so internally you know co-pilot and chat gpt and having paid subscription to those in a subset

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_00]: of folks and having an ongoing dialogue of what's working what's not working is one aspect two is

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_00]: i think being intentional and learning from experts so i mentioned the boot camp i'm going

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_00]: through right now i think this is second aspect but it all comes at the side of the desk it

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_00]: all comes nights and weekends right and it's not a substitute for the day job unfortunately yeah

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_01]: i love how you tied it to the passion because there will be people that are just going to do it

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_00]: either way absolutely and so finding people who are passionate about it encouraging them

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_00]: sponsoring them allocating some meaningful capital and dollars for them to go do stuff

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_01]: becomes equal eke do you think this will change the type of person that we start to look for

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_01]: we hire somebody with maybe things outside of the box less conventional approach because the speed of

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_01]: learning seems to be accelerating and clearly nobody's an ai experts no matter what people say

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_01]: so as we start to do this and even if it's a year or two down the road if you're start

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_01]: delivering actual revenue based items with ai uh you know somebody's got to know

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_01]: what to do there i'm kind of curious your thoughts on how that shapes the people side

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_00]: absolutely i think it just look as um you know sort of has been said before it's the growth

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_00]: mindset right and hiring people that have a growth mindset is so so key for me i just gave

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_00]: a talk on how to hire senior people and i think the first thing i said is i i rewrote the whole

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_00]: interview format and i upended it my interview start with really what questions do you have

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_00]: for me right i want to hire people who are insanely curious intellectually and if you give

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_00]: intellectually curious people an opening they will take it and that to me is also a reflection so

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_00]: absolutely hiring people especially the leadership because that seeds the culture who want to go

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_00]: learn who want to understand that the world you blink and you know 40 new services are launched

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_00]: in azure and the world around us is changing and the velocity of change is only going to

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_00]: increase not decrease um and so leaning in and spending time and wanting to navigate all of that

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_00]: and the complexity all of that brings because the complexity is is the opportunity for msp's right

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_00]: that's what keeps us gainfully employed is the ability to take that complexity

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and make sense of it pivot that into solutions that are meaningful that solve real world problems

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_00]: for our clients i think that's the exciting part and to me the future is exciting because

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_00]: we're not slowing down anytime if anything the pace of innovation and technology changes only

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_01]: increasing i love that uh so meet for the folks that are listening and that would like to reach

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_01]: out to you please let them know how to find you if you're open to that or how to connect

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_00]: with you online absolutely um linkedin is a great way i respond to everything i get on linkedin

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_00]: and so look me up to meet subarwall on linkedin feel free to send me an email to meet that net

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_00]: gain cloud dot com um i either way either channel works would love to hear from you would love to

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_00]: engage in a two-way dialogue and if there's anything i can ever do to help i'm always about paying it

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_01]: forward thank you making tom during build it live i know it's super busy of all the things

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_01]: you're speaking you're doing all these things it's a real gift for you to be here and thank

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_00]: you for being on msp mindset it's my pleasure and i hope to continue the dialogue with you as

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_00]: things evolve so but thank you for having me here david thank you subi