How Unconventional Hiring Can Propel Your MSP Forward + Having Passion for People - MSP Titan #17

[00:00:00] When you have someone who's super passionate about your company, you have to harness that. Where I think companies fail is they don't recognize their passionate people. Sometimes they're on the help desk, sometimes they're in your sales team, sometimes they're maybe in your marketing team, right? But if you can harness their energy into the area they're passionate about, that's how you capitalize yourself as an organization. You move yourself forward.

[00:00:27] Hey guys, Damien Stevens, host of MSP Mindset. Today I got the opportunity to interview Keith Schoolcraft as part of my mission to interview 100 of the top 500 MSPs on the planet. What I learned from Keith today is that he really cares about people and he knows that they're the number one thing that drive his company forward.

[00:00:56] Now, if you're interested in learning from him how he built an internship program when he was just 12 employees, how he goes out of his way to hire unconventional people, including a gumball service person, and you want to make this a differentiator in your company, then don't miss out on our conversation today.

[00:01:16] Keith, I wanted to talk about an unusual fact. I think you started your first business or first tech business at something like the ripe old age of 17.

[00:01:28] I did. You've done your research very well.

[00:01:35] Tell me about that.

[00:01:37] You know, that was back in the days where you could build PCs and actually make a profit.

[00:01:50] I had a gentleman that was supposed to help me out in that business, but I had set up all the things that one would expect, you know, set up relationships with distribution and whatnot.

[00:02:09] The problem when you're 17 is you really don't know how to go and get new business once you run out of your friends and family network.

[00:02:18] You know, things dry up pretty fast.

[00:02:20] And, you know, had I, and at that time I was in a pretty small, pretty small state.

[00:02:31] So where just population wise didn't have the same opportunities, you know.

[00:02:42] Yeah.

[00:02:43] So is that a different business or is that what became your current business?

[00:02:50] No, I ended up closing, closing that up.

[00:02:55] And, but, you know, I think that was the seed that was planted to always want to try it again.

[00:03:02] And, you know, I think that's when I decided I needed to go, you know, back to school, learn more about business, maybe work in the field.

[00:03:13] And so that, that's what I did.

[00:03:15] I went and worked at the field as an engineer.

[00:03:20] And, and I never lost that sight to kind of wonder what it would be like to try it again, you know.

[00:03:28] And, and that, and that, you know, I, I, I had worked for a place that I had, I had some really good mentorship.

[00:03:43] And that, that really helped me.

[00:03:45] They taught me consulting and, and which was just really kind of set some of the foundation for the things that I didn't realize that were going to be critical later on.

[00:03:59] Especially in, in, in the sales side of it.

[00:04:02] You know, I always was looking at it like an engineer would look at it and solution perspective kind of a thing.

[00:04:09] So I never.

[00:04:12] So those were some skills that I didn't realize at the time that I needed to learn.

[00:04:16] I guess you're talking about the early days of what is now a couple of gurus.

[00:04:21] Is that, is that what the timeframe?

[00:04:23] Yeah.

[00:04:23] So I started a couple of gurus 22 years ago.

[00:04:29] So, you know, and originally it was just me.

[00:04:34] So it, you know, you, you move out of your, you realize, I mean, I started out of my apartment, right.

[00:04:41] I mean that just where you lived and, and tried, you know, that was my first time ever trying to do anything.

[00:04:53] Related to, to, to, to, to, um, networking from a business development perspective.

[00:04:58] Um, really didn't know what I was doing.

[00:05:01] I can totally relate.

[00:05:03] It wasn't until years later that I, I, uh, understood better, uh, how, how to do it.

[00:05:09] Um, uh, uh, I actually, uh, had, had brought on a person that, uh, um, uh, understood sales more.

[00:05:20] Uh, and, uh, so, uh, we were able to, uh, that was probably critical to getting that first set of base clients established.

[00:05:32] Um, then once he had, once we had a base set of clients, um, it was a little bit easier after that.

[00:05:40] Cause you, you had at least this, some level of, um, uh, cashflow coming in.

[00:05:46] Um, but managed services wasn't a thing yet, uh, back then it was all, it was all project and break fix.

[00:05:53] So we did a lot of projects.

[00:05:56] This episode is brought to you by Servocity.

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[00:06:57] Let's, let's jump forward to, um, a couple of gurus now.

[00:07:02] And you're, you're on the various, you know, top 500 lists.

[00:07:07] You're growing, uh, rapidly.

[00:07:10] Um, what do you attribute that growth to?

[00:07:12] I think it's, uh, hard work.

[00:07:14] Um, you know, uh, growth is not easy.

[00:07:17] I think it's really hard, uh, to, to, uh, figure out, you know, the, the, the recipe, uh, if you will, uh, because, uh, the environment, uh, is always changing.

[00:07:29] Uh, and so you have to recognize, uh, where the next waves are coming from.

[00:07:36] Uh, and, uh, you know, uh, people who, uh, sold novelle networks, right?

[00:07:43] Uh, I, I don't, I don't think you could probably find anybody anymore that sells novelle networks, right?

[00:07:49] So you might've been king of the hill 20 years ago selling novelle networks.

[00:07:54] Uh, but, uh, you know, you wouldn't exist today if you were still taking that approach.

[00:07:59] So I think for us, it's, it's about staying innovative.

[00:08:04] Um, there was an aspect to that, uh, over the last few years when we couldn't meet with each other, um, it forced me to, uh, learn marketing, uh, a lot, uh, a lot more, uh, to a deeper understanding.

[00:08:18] Uh, that was, uh, not an area that, you know, uh, marketing is, you talk to all marketers, uh, and then no one can actually give you, you know, a total recipe.

[00:08:33] They might give you a framework, but, um, there's a lot of trial and error.

[00:08:38] It's a lot of rapid prototyping.

[00:08:40] Right.

[00:08:40] And I think, I think that's where, um, you know, any business really, um, uh, doesn't employ the concept of rapid prototyping in their sales and marketing initiatives fast enough.

[00:08:55] Uh, and so you have to be able to willing to stop the things that are not working and pour more into the things that are, are working.

[00:09:04] Um, and just forget about those sunk costs that you may have had, uh, because the, the greater goal is to get, uh, you know, get to the, to the right audience that you're trying, trying to reach.

[00:09:17] Um, what I discovered over, uh, and actually this kind of surprised me, um, all of the marketing things that I did worked, they just didn't all target the correct audience though.

[00:09:29] They, they all targeted a different audience.

[00:09:32] And so when we were tracking numbers and I think that's what, you know, is a, is another, uh, you know, helpful thing is to know what numbers to be looking at and track.

[00:09:42] Uh, even if you don't know what numbers track, start tracking something, uh, you know, uh, and, and that's where, where we did is, you know, we, we, uh, we started tracking, um, leads.

[00:09:54] Right.

[00:09:55] Uh, and I was like, that's great.

[00:09:57] We got leads coming in.

[00:09:58] Right.

[00:09:58] And then I was like, wait a minute, we need to actually track sales qualified leads, you know, our marketing qualified leads.

[00:10:05] Right.

[00:10:06] So, you know, you, you then change your definition of leads, right.

[00:10:10] We, we have, we're generating X number of leads, which is generating a marketing qualified lead, which then is generating a sales qualified lead.

[00:10:20] Right.

[00:10:20] So your, your, your, your understanding of all those numbers, I think, uh, starts to deepen.

[00:10:27] Right.

[00:10:27] And I think that's the difference between, you know, when, when we start out, we're kind of running a lot of things from our gut, you know, and from the feel of things.

[00:10:34] And, uh, and, uh, and not that CEOs don't do that to this day in, in, uh, both large and small organizations.

[00:10:41] But, um, but the difference, I think that as you get more mature, you start paying to the numbers a lot more.

[00:10:49] And, and what, what are the numbers telling you, right?

[00:10:52] Like in, in aviation, um, uh, uh, when you start, uh, doing your instrument training, one of the things they teach you is don't, don't trust the feelings that you have.

[00:11:07] Um, you need to trust what your instruments are telling you.

[00:11:10] So when you're in the clouds and you can't see where you're going, and that's, sometimes that's the way business feels is you feel like you're in the clouds and you can't see where you're going.

[00:11:22] Those numbers become your instrument gauge cluster.

[00:11:25] And it tells you what, where you're heading is at and what direction yet, whether you're making a turn to the left or you're making a turn to the right.

[00:11:32] Um, they really become critical in those moments where, when the world, uh, or the environment, uh, just isn't as clear, you know, especially when those waves where technology is changing, right?

[00:11:45] We had a lot of providers.

[00:11:47] I remember hearing providers talk about when the cloud was coming out, you know, and how the cloud was going to put them out of business, you know?

[00:11:56] Um, and, uh, instead of being fearful of the new technology, let's figure it out.

[00:12:03] Let's figure out what, how, how we can use this.

[00:12:06] Right.

[00:12:06] And I think that's where you have to kind of always take that new technology and go, what can we do with it?

[00:12:14] You know, how can we leverage it?

[00:12:15] How can we, how can we apply this to help our customers?

[00:12:19] Right.

[00:12:19] How can we best use this technology to support our customers?

[00:12:23] There's a lot of solutions that are, that are going to be needed in the, in the tech space in the, in, in the coming years, uh, to, to help with different, um, uh, you know, we, we have for, for, for what, a decade have now heard about can't, can't find enough workers and worker shortages.

[00:12:41] And it's like every client in every sector, you know?

[00:12:45] Uh, and, and, and you, you see it a little bit more today in, in retail when there's not enough pharmacists or there's not enough, you know, people at the counter or whatever.

[00:12:53] Right.

[00:12:54] Um, that's going to force technology solutions.

[00:12:57] You know, that's going to force more, you know, from a, from a retail perspective, automated, uh, you know, uh, kiosks, right.

[00:13:06] Uh, where you can serve more people with perhaps one or two people managing 10 kiosks.

[00:13:14] Um, you, uh, you know, Amazon has their whole camera system, you know, just sign up and shop and just grab and go.

[00:13:23] Right.

[00:13:23] Um, you know, they're, they're playing, they're innovating, right.

[00:13:26] They're prototyping, they're, they're testing, right.

[00:13:29] Um, we need to do the same.

[00:13:30] Right.

[00:13:31] And I think when we, as technology providers do that, then we can bring solutions, uh, and innovative ideas to customers.

[00:13:40] And I think in part, that's what customers, um, that's one of the things that customers are looking for, you know, is, um, how, how, how can we differentiate ourselves?

[00:13:55] Right.

[00:13:55] So that we can be more effective, more competitive, you know, and every, every customer is a little bit different and takes a little bit different approach.

[00:14:03] So you have to, while we may as a managed service provider, take a certain structured approach to the management of systems, we can take a custom approach to design in the direction of where they're going.

[00:14:16] So instead of worrying about how are we as an MSP different, worry about how the customer needs to be different.

[00:14:23] Correct.

[00:14:24] Correct.

[00:14:25] It doesn't matter how, how we're different.

[00:14:27] What matters is, um, how we can impact them.

[00:14:30] How do you engage?

[00:14:32] Can you give me an example of how do you ask questions or how do you start to uncover how to help them in that way?

[00:14:39] As you start to, uh, verticalize in certain industries, you start to understand those industries at a, at a deeper level.

[00:14:46] And you start looking at patterns, uh, that, uh, that sector is going through.

[00:14:51] So, um, it becomes a little bit easier, uh, when you understand, uh, what, what they're going through and maybe the next, the next steps of growth or the next steps that, you know, uh, based on, based on where they're at.

[00:15:06] Um, you kind of know what journey, uh, they're going to go on.

[00:15:10] And so the questions then become a little bit matter of where, where are you at?

[00:15:16] Um, uh, and for us, it's really important.

[00:15:21] You know, we want to know what your vision is, right?

[00:15:23] What, what are you trying to accomplish, um, with your goods and services, um, and how, you know, everything from your, your, uh, delivery model, uh, be it a, you know, manufacturer or being, um, or if you're a professional services company, you know, uh, there's, there's unique growth challenges, uh, to all companies at certain stages.

[00:15:49] So at certain stages, you need different, um, you, you need different things.

[00:15:55] And so, uh, if we know, you know, I would design a network, for example, uh, if you're going to, uh, go an IPO route, uh, versus you want to build a legacy business and pass it on, those might be two different architectural designs, you know?

[00:16:13] Uh, and so.

[00:16:15] Well, you don't just sell everybody the most expensive equipment.

[00:16:17] Yeah.

[00:16:18] Yeah.

[00:16:19] Right.

[00:16:21] Yeah.

[00:16:21] So you want to, you want to ask though, if you don't know where they're going, how can you really, you can't, you can put a short-term solution together, but it's harder to put a long-term solution together.

[00:16:31] And I've just had to, over the years, we, you know, look, looked at a network or, or design and you, you hear about the things that they're struggling with.

[00:16:41] Um, and, and you realize that nobody ever asked the question of where were they going?

[00:16:47] Um, because they wouldn't have put this in had, had they known that answer.

[00:16:52] And it's sad because a lot of people just don't even realize to ask.

[00:16:55] Right.

[00:16:56] And, and the customers don't know, um, that they, that they should, they should, you know, be, be telling that.

[00:17:04] Right.

[00:17:04] Um, when you sit in, uh, a strategic planning meeting and you, you say, you know, where do we want to be in 10 years and then three years and, you know, uh, and then one year.

[00:17:19] Right.

[00:17:20] Like that's a very different meeting and very different context to an organization.

[00:17:27] When you have the big picture of where they want to go.

[00:17:31] Right.

[00:17:32] The challenge with, with that and, and anybody who, who takes that approach, um, uh, is getting to that level of, of detail.

[00:17:42] Uh, cause it takes time, you know, and it takes trust and trust is not always instantaneous.

[00:17:48] Sometimes trust is built, uh, as the engagement goes along and as the year goes along.

[00:17:54] And then they realize, oh yeah, you're, you're, you're actually a partner in this.

[00:17:59] And, you know, we're trying to figure this out together and we walk side by side.

[00:18:03] You know, it's not about, um, you know, how much revenue can I pull out of someone?

[00:18:10] You know, I, I would rather say, Hey, this is not something we can do for you, but this is something you need.

[00:18:16] Uh, and let, let me help you find someone who can address this need, you know?

[00:18:21] Uh, and so staying in our lanes when we need to stay in our lanes, you know?

[00:18:26] Um, uh, it's very, there's not a shortage of it vendors, uh, on our side that want us to sell products and services.

[00:18:37] Um, you know, the, the, when I look at those things, it's, it's, it's more about which ones can benefit our customer, right?

[00:18:48] Which ones are bringing an innovative solution.

[00:18:50] I always have an ear out for what quest, what questions are customers asking, you know?

[00:18:57] And, and sometimes they don't know how to ask the question, but you see a theme in where they're going.

[00:19:04] Uh, and so, you know, a lot of people, for example, when the cloud came out, as was, you know, speaking of, they want to go to the cloud.

[00:19:11] They didn't know how to get there.

[00:19:13] Yeah.

[00:19:14] Right.

[00:19:14] Uh, and now we're, we're entering a phase of, you know, people realizing the value of a hybrid cloud, you know, where you have both on-premise and cloud infrastructure.

[00:19:28] Right.

[00:19:28] There are still customers that are what I would call born in the cloud today.

[00:19:33] Right.

[00:19:33] Uh, and then of course, now the conversations are, we're very early on this.

[00:19:38] Um, where's AI going?

[00:19:41] How can we use it?

[00:19:42] You know, AI is very much, uh, from business perspective in its infancy, you know?

[00:19:48] Um, and, and our, our, all of our understandings of how to best utilize it.

[00:19:55] You know, um, uh, I think my son had a really good perspective.

[00:20:00] I was talking to him, uh, about this and, um, his perspective was AI is going to make, um, already strong workers and engineers, uh,

[00:20:11] even stronger and more effective.

[00:20:13] Uh, and that I thought made a lot of sense.

[00:20:17] Uh, and especially because you have to validate the output that AI gives you.

[00:20:22] Right.

[00:20:22] So if you're having AI write code for you, you're going to have to still have to validate that code, which still means you have to read the code.

[00:20:29] Right.

[00:20:30] Um, or scripts, right.

[00:20:32] If you're on the infrastructure side.

[00:20:33] So how do you engage today?

[00:20:35] Uh, if, if, if clients have all this questions, concerns, uncertainty, um, what, what, what do you see as the role today for you?

[00:20:45] I, I, I, yeah, I, it was interesting.

[00:20:47] I had a client, um, and I was sitting down with, with lunch with them the other day and, and, uh, I didn't know the, the conversation turned towards AI.

[00:20:55] I didn't expect that.

[00:20:56] Um, uh, but they were really wondering how they could use AI in their services that they provide to their constituents.

[00:21:06] Um, and it just ended up sparking just, I think a conversation, right?

[00:21:10] Like kind of a conversation of possibilities.

[00:21:13] And I think that's where it has to start first is let's explore all of the possibilities and lay all of these possibilities out, uh, on the table, because it's really, AI is really one of those things where you need someone who really understands.

[00:21:30] You need someone who understands the inner workings of an organization, and you need someone who understands what AI currently is capable of doing, and how can you possibly marry those two things together.

[00:21:41] I think what we'll see is we'll see a lot of solutions like we're seeing in our industry, which is, you know, we all have databases of tickets, right?

[00:21:50] That we have done over years, right?

[00:21:53] Now there's some solutions coming out for service providers that will look into our ticket history, uh, and, you know, pull out, you know, uh, uh, solutions that engineers have, have done in years past for a similar type of problem.

[00:22:08] Right.

[00:22:08] Uh, so those are in, and that's an aspect of AI of what I call it.

[00:22:12] Like it's like an advanced search capability, you know?

[00:22:15] Uh, and so I think we'll see a lot of that, uh, the, you know, the, the next generation search or the advanced search is I think how a lot of people are going to first start to utilize AI.

[00:22:28] Um, I think then they'll start to shift into automating certain workloads.

[00:22:33] Um, and when you automate workloads, you have to be, you have to make sure that the process you're automating is, uh, really rock solid.

[00:22:41] Um, otherwise you just simply automate.

[00:22:43] If you have something that causes, uh, uh, a problem down the workflow line of the chain automation and or AI is simply going to accelerate that problem.

[00:22:56] So you want to make sure that you spend a lot of time honing in your processes before you train, you know, AI bots and other things to kind of automate workloads for you.

[00:23:07] But I think that will be the next step is we'll start with the search aspect and then we'll move into the automation aspect.

[00:23:14] Uh, and, uh, again, you'll, you'll have, uh, you know, positions that probably don't exist yet today, like an AI engineer that is overseeing, you know, automation, right?

[00:23:27] You know, something to that effect.

[00:23:29] Well, that, that's a great segue.

[00:23:30] Cause I want to, I'd love your input.

[00:23:32] How do you approach this today?

[00:23:35] Because, you know, we're, I think we're used to adapting quickly, but age, you know, everything changes and it seems like it's going to continue to change faster.

[00:23:49] So, um, then, then we, as mere mortals, maybe be able to, to keep up with or even comprehend to a certain degree.

[00:23:57] Um, curious if you feel like you will challenge your entire team to embrace, I don't know, AI fundamentals.

[00:24:05] Will you name an AI, you know, officer that is supposed to be the person that has the understanding much like a, a CISO, um, something else.

[00:24:14] Yeah, I, I, so, you know, we, uh, uh, we live in the city where three at three M is, is, uh, uh, in our backyard.

[00:24:25] And one of the things that I've always, uh, admired about three M, uh, is, uh, the way they innovate.

[00:24:31] Um, they expect each of their employees to take some of their time and just play and invent.

[00:24:40] Right.

[00:24:41] And, you know, uh, I think the most famous one is the guy who created the sticky note, you know, created it accidentally.

[00:24:47] Right.

[00:24:48] Um, uh, anyhow, um, I think we need to do the same thing with, with AI.

[00:24:54] I think we need to let our people play a little bit.

[00:24:56] I think some of the solutions that are going to come, come from, um, aren't going to come from, you know, the, the, the CISO type of person.

[00:25:05] Right.

[00:25:06] They're, they're going to come from giving the opportunity to your people to play with it, you know, and maybe you start slow.

[00:25:15] Right.

[00:25:15] Maybe, maybe you, you, you start with a couple of Microsoft co-pilot licenses.

[00:25:21] Right.

[00:25:21] Maybe, maybe you start slow that way, at least dip your toe into it.

[00:25:25] What I think you don't want to do is you don't want to be afraid of it.

[00:25:29] You know, you don't, you don't want to be like, well, this is going to eliminate my job.

[00:25:35] You know, um, I think that's where, when I've seen people who are afraid of technology about perhaps eliminating their position, they're not seeing the opportunity on the other side.

[00:25:47] You know, um, if you could, if you could automate, eliminate your position that would open you up to opportunities to, uh, do other things that perhaps you never had the time for.

[00:26:00] So, uh, I think we'll see it, um, in the security space, uh, you know, uh, I think we'll see, uh, concept of SIM take another, uh, you know, um, uh, kind of a deeper, deeper approach than it does, uh, does today.

[00:26:17] Um, so I think we'll see a lot more, uh, of correlation of user behavior, um, you know, not just based on, um, uh, a set of binary rules, but, um, uh, perhaps more pattern recognition kind of, kind of things, which, which we're seeing a little bit, uh, come out today.

[00:26:38] But I think we're going to see another deeper evolution of that in, in the security space.

[00:26:44] Um, uh, and I think that's going to happen on both sides, to be honest, uh, on the defense side and on the attack side.

[00:26:52] So there's going to be plenty of work for us to do in the future.

[00:26:55] It just might look a little different than it does today.

[00:26:57] How do you approach it at a couple of gurus with your team in terms of AI?

[00:27:03] Do you, do you say here's licenses, go play, uh, put a set of time or here's a challenge we have.

[00:27:11] Can you guys figure out an innovative solution or some, something else?

[00:27:15] So we, we do use, uh, the, the, as you mentioned earlier, the EOS traction model, um, which I think what I like about that is it provides a forum for anybody to put an idea and get it discussed.

[00:27:30] Um, and so we capture all of those ideas that people have, whether it's from the engineering team or the sales team or the, you know, um, and what you realize is you're like, oh, hey, you know, these things that, you know, um, for example, like a, like a customer, um, uh, we need to put this in, into our PSA system.

[00:27:52] Right.

[00:27:53] Uh, so there's some manual keystrokes that, that end up going on there.

[00:27:57] Those are, I think, low hanging fruit, uh, opportunities, uh, for AI where AI could, can fit in immediately.

[00:28:05] So, you know, I think the, the first thing is capturing all the ideas, uh, and then deciding which ones do you want to capitalize on first and which ones that perhaps would make the biggest impact, uh, to the organization.

[00:28:18] Uh, so we'll IDS those types of issues and, you know, and then, and then, uh, some of those will, will bubble up for us.

[00:28:25] Uh, uh, uh, we call them rocks.

[00:28:27] Some people would know them as quarterly goals.

[00:28:29] Um, but, uh, those will eventually get worked into the overall, uh, business plan, uh, as far as that goes.

[00:28:37] So, and then people can see that, Hey, this idea that, that they, you know, that they brought up, you know, there's, there's action being taken on it, you know, and if there is an idea that we don't take that action on it and we discussed it, they were part of that discussion.

[00:28:52] And so they understand why we're not going to take that route.

[00:28:55] You know, um, sometimes it's not that you don't want to, sometimes it's, you know, we're, we're, we, you know, the, the, we all, all, all only have so many resources.

[00:29:06] So you can only take on so many projects and initiatives at once, you know, but what you can do is you can work it into a longer term plan, uh, and get it on a roadmap.

[00:29:16] Let's keep going on the people route.

[00:29:17] We were talking before about your belief in hiring and your hiring process there.

[00:29:24] Uh, would you share that?

[00:29:28] Yeah.

[00:29:29] You know, I, I love to, to discover the potential in people.

[00:29:34] Um, and, uh, I, I look for the things that, you know, what, what are the things that make a person good for a certain position?

[00:29:45] Right.

[00:29:46] So what are the raw qualities?

[00:29:48] What are the natural talents that a person, person would, would possess?

[00:29:54] Um, and, uh, you know, I think I had talked about the, the, the kid, you know, who, who, um, uh, you know, when I got his resume, it was mostly about, uh, him serving gumball machines in a three state area.

[00:30:09] But there was one thing that caught my eye in his resume.

[00:30:12] And it was at the end of the day, uh, he'd go to user groups.

[00:30:17] And, um, when, and, and I thought, okay, that's someone who's passionate.

[00:30:22] That's someone who's on one hand working hard to, to earn an income, but what they're really passionate about at the end of the day is what they spend their time on after hours.

[00:30:32] Right.

[00:30:32] That tells you loads about, uh, a person of what, you know, what do they do after hours?

[00:30:39] You know, uh, and he was, you know, diving into tech and, you know, uh, he, he worked for us for many years and he wanted to, to get into the DevOps side of the, of the coin.

[00:30:50] And so, um, uh, I mentored him, uh, through that and, uh, he ended up getting an opportunity where he could, he could do a lot more of that.

[00:31:00] Uh, and so, you know, for me, that was a success, right.

[00:31:04] You know, to, to be able to, um, you know, uh, recognize the, the, the talent in someone, uh, and then, you know, uh, nurture that to a point and help them achieve what, you know, their desired and personal, uh, goals.

[00:31:21] And, uh, you know, so a lot of times I think it's about giving unexpected people opportunities, you know, that perhaps other people wouldn't, um, you know, wouldn't, wouldn't blink an eye at.

[00:31:35] Uh, and.

[00:31:36] Why is that important to you, Keith?

[00:31:38] I think because people gave me an opportunity when I was younger.

[00:31:42] Um, and, uh, I learned a lot, you know, um, and I, I, that was something.

[00:31:50] I think that made such an impact on me that I want to pay that forward.

[00:31:55] I wish, you know, we have an internship program.

[00:31:58] I wish we could have a larger program than, than we do.

[00:32:01] Um, we can only handle so many.

[00:32:03] Um, but it's, there's so much fun to, to, to watch, um, you know, to, to, to give them a problem and let them, then watch them figure it out.

[00:32:13] The hardest thing is not to give them the answer.

[00:32:19] Just gotta let them, let them fly, right?

[00:32:21] Just let them fly, you know, uh, and, you know, uh, a lot of times we'll do a lab, uh, a very, you know, kind of a complex lab experiment, uh, for them.

[00:32:30] And, you know, they love it.

[00:32:32] They take it very seriously, but you can see the learning, right?

[00:32:35] When you can see the learning going on, you know, I think it's, it's, it's what, um, uh, I think the way we learn on this in, in, in the infrastructure world, this is more akin to, uh, the trades of old and apprenticeship.

[00:32:53] Right.

[00:32:54] Uh, and, uh, that's not exactly how our school system is set up and structured.

[00:33:00] Uh, and, uh, although there's, there's advancements in, uh, correlating, you know, that hands-on experience in, in different coursework, uh, at least when we went through, it was a lot more just about reading books.

[00:33:14] Um, and, and I'm a reader, so I, I, you know, I don't mind, uh, reading books, but, um, but I think having, creating those opportunities, uh, to experience things, uh, is absolutely paramount.

[00:33:27] You know, um, uh, you know, it, uh, uh, there, there's been people who sometimes, uh, you know, for one reason or another in life, um, perhaps, uh, you know, we're in the industry and then they, and they got out for a period.

[00:33:43] Right.

[00:33:44] Um, whether it's five or 10 years or whatever, um, uh, because something in life diverted them away.

[00:33:51] Right.

[00:33:52] Uh, and, uh, uh, who, who, um, you know, most people would say, uh, your skills are too old.

[00:34:03] You know, you don't have any current skills.

[00:34:06] When I look at that a little bit differently, I go, well, you have a foundation that I can probably build upon, you know?

[00:34:12] Uh, so I can probably start, you know, building that fan innovation a little bit more rapidly than perhaps someone who doesn't have that foundation yet.

[00:34:20] You know?

[00:34:21] So I think it's just being willing, uh, to look at, you know, what drives and motivates people, um, and what are they just naturally passionate and talented about?

[00:34:36] Right.

[00:34:37] Um, and it's not always, you know, tech.

[00:34:40] Sometimes, uh, I've, I've seen people who are passionate about, uh, marketing.

[00:34:46] I've seen people who are passionate about sales and didn't know it.

[00:34:48] Uh, you know, and, uh, sometimes we are sitting on golden nuggets right under our feet and we don't even know it because we don't, we haven't taken the time to get to know our people and what, what their personal passions are and where their goals are.

[00:35:05] And, you know, what they want to accomplish in life.

[00:35:08] Uh, you'd be surprised what you would find, what you find out when, when you take 20 to 30 minutes and just say, you know, what's your dreams?

[00:35:18] Yeah.

[00:35:19] Like we're, we're, and, and if I can, I want to be a part of being able to support that dream, you know, can't always, but, you know, I can be, always be an encourager.

[00:35:30] I love that unconventional approach.

[00:35:34] Um, word is, I think you also may have hired a camp counselor.

[00:35:39] Oh yeah.

[00:35:43] Um, I, yeah, I, uh, uh, that was really interesting, but, uh, what that showed me, uh, uh, he, I, this was, uh, uh, you know, a young man that, um, uh, had been doing things.

[00:36:00] And he's been in camp counseling for a few years, uh, and wanted to, uh, get in the professional world.

[00:36:08] And I realized he had built this skillset of, you know, leadership, uh, of kids.

[00:36:14] Uh, he had to put processes in place.

[00:36:17] Uh, uh, he had to create systems, uh, you know, there, there were a lot of things.

[00:36:23] And so, you know, I recognize that those were some of the same skills that would translate into creating systems and workflow within PSA software.

[00:36:39] And so he became, you know, our first PSA administrator.

[00:36:51] And he was great at it, you know.

[00:36:56] And for me, it's wonderful to give people like that an unexpected opportunity, you know, because there was nothing on his resume that would have indicated he'd be good at it.

[00:37:14] But, you know, I know that he's moved further in his career and he's still in the same line of field.

[00:37:23] I'm curious, is there – how would you frame this?

[00:37:29] And what I mean by that is I think some folks – I agree with your kind of spotting that, what I would call diamond in the rough.

[00:37:36] Yeah.

[00:37:37] And then giving that opportunity to flourish.

[00:37:42] And then sometimes in my experience, they do things more amazing than other folks that you might hire with the qualified resume, quote unquote.

[00:37:50] But I'm curious, what is your perspective on is this more, you know, I'm giving back and I have to be more patient and put more time in and basically hire more junior people and kind of spot the business growth ahead of time and therefore, you know, allow them more time to come up to speed?

[00:38:10] Or is this widening the pool and, you know, they surprise you and it's not giving back and going slower.

[00:38:18] It's a different perspective.

[00:38:19] There's maybe a little bit of both.

[00:38:23] But I think, you know, when I look at a person, the one thing that I can't teach is I can't teach motivation.

[00:38:35] I can teach skills.

[00:38:37] I can teach how to, but I can't teach – I can't motivate someone and only they can do that for themselves.

[00:38:48] So I think for me is I look at where is their source of motivation coming from.

[00:38:59] And when you find a person, you know, a like-minded person who's passionate about people, who wants to, you know, help people, you know, that is a common theme amongst our engineers is they're passionate about helping people.

[00:39:20] And so they love their job because every time they fix an issue, they're helping someone or every time they implement a new piece of technology, they're helping someone, you know.

[00:39:30] They're making the world a better place one ticket at a time.

[00:39:36] And that's something that I think it's important to recognize, you know, from our side of the coin, from the leadership side of the coin, that what you're doing matters.

[00:39:52] And so we, you know, when we get ticket feedback for clients, we love to celebrate with the team and say, you know, hey, you did – the client, you know, rated you a 10 on this ticket.

[00:40:07] That was fantastic.

[00:40:08] Job well done.

[00:40:09] You're making an impact.

[00:40:11] You know, when people realize the impact that they're making, you know, that keeps them motivated, right?

[00:40:19] And so when you meet someone new, you have to find out where their initial motivation source and, you know, pool is coming from.

[00:40:29] And it's different for everybody, right?

[00:40:33] But when you see it in people – I – one of – when my son was in high school, one of his friends

[00:40:46] had this interesting little experiment, which was he wanted to install Doom, the game Doom, on every electronic device he could get his hands on.

[00:40:59] And it was really super funny to watch this kid, you know, trying to put Doom on esoteric devices.

[00:41:08] And I don't completely know what motivated him to do that other than his veracity to understand how technology works, right?

[00:41:20] Because he was rapidly understanding a wide variety of technology.

[00:41:26] And I remember he called me once for – and it was this very ancient old computer that, like, his grandparents had given him.

[00:41:39] And it was – had a lot of proprietary hardware for a PC that was no longer compatible with today.

[00:41:47] Unfortunately, we could not get that one going.

[00:41:51] But, you know, but he learned so much of those trials and errors, right?

[00:41:56] And there is a young man who will end up in the technology field somewhere, in some discipline of the field, once he figures out, you know, which direction he wants to go in.

[00:42:11] But that motivation is coming from inside of him, from somewhere, from, you know, it's voracious.

[00:42:21] You couldn't stop him from doing his experiment, right?

[00:42:27] Fun little experiment with Doom.

[00:42:29] But, you know, when you see people like that, or when you have someone who's super passionate about your company, you have to harness that.

[00:42:49] Yes.

[00:42:50] You have to – where I think companies fail is they don't recognize their passionate people.

[00:43:00] You know, and they're sitting – sometimes they're on the help desk.

[00:43:04] Sometimes they're in your sales team.

[00:43:06] Sometimes they're maybe in your marketing team, right?

[00:43:09] But if you can harness their energy into the area they're passionate about, that's how you capitalize.

[00:43:16] That's how you capitalize yourself as an organization.

[00:43:19] You move yourself forward.

[00:43:21] How do you spot that?

[00:43:25] I think you have to be intentional about looking for it.

[00:43:30] You know, it's coupled with spending time with people.

[00:43:37] But, you know, and listening to hearing how people talk, you know, and, you know, you can – when you hear their energy and, you know, tell me more about that, you know.

[00:43:53] And I think whether it's the people that work for you or whether it's customers, we all want to be heard.

[00:44:00] And not enough of us are listening.

[00:44:04] Well said.

[00:44:06] So how does your hiring process different if you're looking for these – the passion in these people?

[00:44:14] Yeah.

[00:44:17] I encourage and welcome resumes at all times at any time of the year.

[00:44:26] And I don't always have open positions.

[00:44:31] But if I see someone who perhaps strikes my eye, I'm just very honest with them.

[00:44:38] I will say I want to stay in touch with you.

[00:44:41] I don't have anything open, any opportunities right now.

[00:44:46] But could we stay in touch?

[00:44:48] Maybe that's through LinkedIn.

[00:44:50] You know, maybe that's through a periodic check-in, you know.

[00:44:53] But could we stay in touch?

[00:44:55] And would you be open to, you know, applying again when we have an opportunity?

[00:45:00] You know, and sometimes I've had people who – I've had a couple people who have applied twice, you know.

[00:45:11] And the first time we didn't have something for them, but the second time we did.

[00:45:17] You know, we have rehired several engineers in years past as well.

[00:45:29] So, for me, the door is typically always open, you know.

[00:45:36] And it's usually just a matter of timing, you know.

[00:45:41] And sometimes if I see someone, and this happens occasionally, and I might have a friend or a partner that I know is looking.

[00:45:51] And I know that this young man or this gentleman over here is seeking an area in that opportunity.

[00:45:59] I'll make a connection for them.

[00:46:01] You know, I'll say, hey, you know, I don't have an opportunity here.

[00:46:05] But, you know, I know someone who does, and I think you should talk to them, you know.

[00:46:09] I love that.

[00:46:09] And so I'll make that connection, you know.

[00:46:13] Because if – you know, because maybe we'll work together in a different capacity, right, from that perspective.

[00:46:22] You know, maybe you'll work for a partner of mine, right, that we work with.

[00:46:25] And that's okay, right?

[00:46:28] But I think when people realize that there's sort of a self – it's like getting an internship program off the ground.

[00:46:41] It's actually really hard to do because it's hard to find the interns.

[00:46:46] But once you get the flywheel going, like you have people who are contacting you about internships, you know.

[00:46:54] So a lot of this sort of is like getting these different flywheels going that help keep momentum going.

[00:47:03] And so when it comes to engineers, I don't typically have – our hiring cycle is shortened because I'm always talking to people, you know.

[00:47:13] So – and because of growth, you just don't know, you know, you do your hiring based on what the numbers are telling you.

[00:47:25] So you have to keep that in line.

[00:47:27] And, you know, the predicting of always when sales opportunities close is, wow, there's some formulas that people have applied to it.

[00:47:35] None of them are exact.

[00:47:37] Right.

[00:47:38] Still some art there.

[00:47:39] Yes.

[00:47:42] That's really cool.

[00:47:43] Well, about how many employees were you guys when you implemented the internship program because that's still pretty unusual and I'm curious how –

[00:47:54] Yeah.

[00:47:55] So we only started this a few years ago.

[00:47:59] Right now we limit it to three at a time.

[00:48:06] And –

[00:48:07] When you first started, about how many employees were you guys and –

[00:48:12] Oh, I think we were maybe around 12 employees when we first – and back then it was just one person.

[00:48:23] Yeah.

[00:48:23] That's really early to implement an internship program.

[00:48:26] So that's amazing.

[00:48:27] Yeah.

[00:48:28] Yeah.

[00:48:29] Yeah.

[00:48:29] Yeah.

[00:48:29] So, you know, it – you realize, especially, you know, I probably – you know, one of the success –

[00:48:39] And was a college intern we had once.

[00:48:41] And the reason why it was a success is he changed his degree based on his experience with us.

[00:48:48] And he realized he wanted to do something different.

[00:48:51] And for me, helping him discover that was a huge success, you know.

[00:48:58] And we've had others that go, wow.

[00:49:02] Wow.

[00:49:02] I didn't know there was so much more to learn.

[00:49:05] I love this, right?

[00:49:08] And I want to come back and I want to, you know, do more.

[00:49:13] So we have – we are probably one of the few people that I know of that has done some high school interns.

[00:49:22] Oh, wow.

[00:49:22] Most people do college interns.

[00:49:25] You know, the younger they are, the more – there is more work.

[00:49:29] So, you know, you have to balance, you know, the time that your team has available.

[00:49:35] So we started developing – we ended up developing like an intern track, if you will, sort of a –

[00:49:43] and it was based on every year and every summer or semester, you know, what did we learn from that?

[00:49:53] What did they learn from that?

[00:49:54] What – you know, what – you know, how could we modify our program?

[00:49:58] One of the things that I'd like to try and figure out in the next phase is how could we implement like a remote internship opportunity?

[00:50:12] Mm-hmm.

[00:50:13] So it's a little bit more complicated to do that, I think.

[00:50:17] I don't think it's impossible though.

[00:50:20] So it'll require someone who's willing, you know, and to know that this isn't a fully fleshed out program if it's remote.

[00:50:33] But if we work on it together, we'll make it a great experience.

[00:50:36] Knowing what you know now, would you do that again?

[00:50:41] Would you recommend that I implement an internship program?

[00:50:45] I wished I would have done it sooner.

[00:50:47] Okay.

[00:50:48] I – you know, I think I had wanted to do it for many years and I just didn't know how to get started.

[00:50:56] Or maybe was a little bit afraid to get started because I knew that we didn't have a formal program.

[00:51:05] But it was starting that helped us put the framework together.

[00:51:10] So that was the funny is that the actual act of starting it was, you know, the very thing – the framework was what I wanted before I started.

[00:51:18] But I needed to start in order to get the framework.

[00:51:21] So it was this catch-22.

[00:51:24] But, yeah, I think every company should have an intern.

[00:51:32] They teach – interns teach you so much about yourself and about your organization and what's unclear.

[00:51:41] They're very quick to point out where in your organization things are unclear that you don't even realize, you know, because if you – especially if you're the founder, for you everything's clear.

[00:51:52] Yeah.

[00:51:53] You know, and you're just – you just sometimes wonder why people don't know.

[00:51:58] I can totally agree to that.

[00:52:00] Right?

[00:52:02] Yeah.

[00:52:04] So how has that impacted your team and your culture?

[00:52:07] With the team, you – what we've learned is we had to set different sets of expectations.

[00:52:15] So with the team, internships are not the same as a full-time, you know – you know, the – there's a – you know, it's not the same as getting someone who, you know, is coming out of school with a four-year degree and has maybe two years of work experience.

[00:52:41] Right?

[00:52:41] Right?

[00:52:42] That person has had some opportunities and trains and internships with other organizations.

[00:52:49] So when we're giving internships to people who've never had an internship before, sometimes the things that we have to train – because schools don't train this – schools don't train how do you – how do you need to operate and act in a professional environment?

[00:53:03] Mm-hmm.

[00:53:03] That's not covered.

[00:53:07] It – you have writing classes, so you know how to perhaps write.

[00:53:12] But, you know, how do you interact with a team of professionals and customers?

[00:53:17] And, you know, even like sometimes we have to coach people on here's what to say, here's what not to say.

[00:53:25] Right?

[00:53:26] Right.

[00:53:26] You know, and so you don't realize – you know, I had to use this analogy.

[00:53:35] So in the military, they reteach everybody how to tie their shoes.

[00:53:44] Why?

[00:53:46] Because the military wants everybody to tie their shoes the exact same way.

[00:53:51] So they don't care how you remembered it or how you were taught.

[00:53:56] They want you to know how to do it their way.

[00:54:02] Right?

[00:54:02] They want you to know how to tie a military knot.

[00:54:05] Right?

[00:54:09] It's – so, you know, if the military can take that sort of approach and say, we're going to just strip this down back to the basics and rebuild the foundation, that's what you – a solid internship is going to do is rebuild that foundation so that it's really solid.

[00:54:27] Right?

[00:54:28] Right?

[00:54:28] You're going to make sure the cornerstone is in the exact right spot so that you can build the rest of the wall and the foundation and the house on top.

[00:54:37] Whether it's internship or full-time hire, how do you spot these unconventional people that you're willing to take a risk on?

[00:54:45] I mean, the gumball machine, maybe the user group gave you the hint, which is awesome.

[00:54:50] Camp counselor, I don't know how you pick that one.

[00:54:53] The best way to get your bucket list done is to share your bucket list with the world.

[00:54:58] Right?

[00:54:59] Because there's people perhaps in your sphere that have a connection to, oh, you want to go see this?

[00:55:06] Well, I know someone who works at this place.

[00:55:09] And, you know, so I put the word out, you know, that, you know, people have gotten to know that I hire unconventional people.

[00:55:23] And so I just keep that word out there, you know.

[00:55:28] And so then when we're looking, and our people know that, right?

[00:55:32] Because some of them came from that, right?

[00:55:36] So they're not afraid.

[00:55:39] You know, the biggest thing that people are afraid to do is to give you a recommendation or ask you to take a look at someone that doesn't have all the right checkboxes checked.

[00:55:55] Right?

[00:55:56] Right?

[00:55:56] And when you can say to that person, I don't care if they have all the checkboxes checked.

[00:56:02] I do care if they have integrity.

[00:56:04] Right?

[00:56:05] I do care if they have passion.

[00:56:09] You know, and I do care if they have motivation.

[00:56:12] Right?

[00:56:12] Those are three things that I, you know, that it's harder for me to teach.

[00:56:19] Right?

[00:56:19] I can't teach passion.

[00:56:20] I can't teach integrity.

[00:56:23] That has to come from somewhere else.

[00:56:26] Right?

[00:56:28] But if they're coming in with those things, man, you know, you can do a lot.

[00:56:35] You know, you can teach someone to sell.

[00:56:39] You can teach someone to do engineering.

[00:56:41] You can teach, you know, all of these things.

[00:56:45] Whether it's sales or engineering, they're fundamentally all processes.

[00:56:49] I want to switch gears for a moment and ask, what's been the biggest lesson learned in all your years in business?

[00:56:58] I think the biggest lesson learned and the biggest breakthroughs come from facing your fears.

[00:57:05] I think most, when someone or an organization is operating out of fear, it's probably the wrong motivation.

[00:57:19] You know, when you're operating out of confidence.

[00:57:23] And when you're operating, it changes the mindset.

[00:57:33] It changes the attitude, the environment.

[00:57:38] You know, so, and that's probably one of the issues that I have with our industry is that a lot of people take a sales approach from a fear-based approach.

[00:57:52] And, you know, there are certain aspects of, you know, fear, I guess, when it relates to pain.

[00:58:01] Right. We all grew up and we learned that touching the stove was a bad idea.

[00:58:06] Right. Because you're going to burn your hand.

[00:58:08] Yeah.

[00:58:08] So there's, there are certain lessons in that, like, you know, having a good backup.

[00:58:14] Right. Of your systems is important because, you know, you can't get your data back.

[00:58:20] Right. I can rebuild a server, but I can't get your data back.

[00:58:22] Right.

[00:58:23] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:58:23] So we have, we have to protect those, those types of things that, you know, are very highly valuable to us.

[00:58:31] Right.

[00:58:31] So I think the other lesson is to continually grow and learn.

[00:58:42] Um, uh, and, uh, the, um, someone once told me that, uh, you know, study, uh, study another industry, uh, for example, um, because there'll be lessons in that industry you can apply to your business.

[00:59:02] And that turned me on to things like, uh, Goldratt's, uh, theory of constraints.

[00:59:07] Yes. I recently interviewed, um, not Dr. Gilrod, but, uh, Dr. Alan Bernard, uh, theory of constraints.

[00:59:16] Amazing.

[00:59:17] Yeah.

[00:59:17] Amazing.

[00:59:18] So, you know, it, it, you know, I read that and, you know, it, it, uh, was big in the, in the, in the manufacturing world.

[00:59:28] Uh, but you have organizations like IBM that applied those concepts to a service-based industry.

[00:59:34] Right.

[00:59:35] And so, you know, I think when, when you open up your, your eyes and your, your mind to, you know, these other ways of, of thinking and processes and realizing where bottlenecks are and, and, you know, um, uh, you know, you can help gain velocity in areas that maybe you were once stuck in, you know.

[00:59:58] Uh, and everybody hits walls in business, right?

[01:00:05] Like whether it's a growth barrier or, uh, uh, you know, um, uh, uh, some of the, uh, best lessons, um, and probably one of the best things I ever did was ask my customers about their growth journey and what they learned.

[01:00:26] Um, and I had a customer tell me once, uh, and I've never forgotten this, uh, and he, he, he pointed out to me that the complexity of communication changes the more people you get, the more people you have.

[01:00:44] Um, and that often you have to re-evaluate, um, um, when a team grows by five people, it's communication, uh, uh, structure and needs most likely will need some adjustment and changing.

[01:01:00] Um, and, um, uh, you know, I, I, uh, for me that was really insightful, uh, and it answered the question of, you know, why, you know, why was this working for us, you know, uh, two years ago and today we're, we're struggling with it.

[01:01:21] Well, we added more people and the, the communication structure changed and, and, you know, uh, we have to go back and adjust and, and, you know, realign, uh, those, those areas, those processes and those people.

[01:01:37] Um, and, you know, um, and, you know, the question I asked him was how do you combat that growing complexity of a team?

[01:01:45] Right.

[01:01:46] And, you know, his, his answer was simple, but also insightful, which is you have to figure out ways that you can break that team into a subset of smaller teams.

[01:01:56] Uh, smaller teams have a more rapid, faster, uh, ability to communicate with each other.

[01:02:03] You know, um, and I think, uh,

[01:02:06] uh, when we implemented, uh, traction that helped put structure into that whole, that whole thing.

[01:02:15] Hmm.

[01:02:16] I love that.

[01:02:17] If there were one thing you could do over, what would that be?

[01:02:22] Uh, in traction, they talk about a concept called an integrator.

[01:02:28] Um, the outside world would know that as a, as a COO or, you know, that, that kind of level of a position.

[01:02:35] Um, um, finding the correct, you know, person that you really, um, work really well with, um, uh, makes things so much more fun.

[01:02:51] Um, uh, and it, it helps, you know, to have someone who, uh, understands where you're, you're, you know, where you want to take things from a vision perspective, uh, uh, and being able to see, uh, uh, that vision, uh, relayed to the other team members, uh, and let them be a part of building and creating that.

[01:03:15] Um, uh, you know, there's, there, there's a gap between the visionaries who, uh, usually start the companies and, uh, the people who are actually the, the, the ones that are feet on the street, right?

[01:03:30] Um, the feet of the street are the people who are going to help you build that vision, right?

[01:03:35] Uh, but sometimes they need to hear it in a different way and perhaps more detailed way or a structured way.

[01:03:41] Uh, so I think, you know, when I have, and I've seen this in customers too, when they have a good, uh, solid operation, uh, person in place, um, it makes such a big difference for the rest of the organization.

[01:03:55] And I've, I've experienced that as, as well.

[01:03:58] Um, and I, I perhaps waited too long to put that person in place.

[01:04:03] Hmm.

[01:04:04] I love that.

[01:04:05] I love that.

[01:04:05] Great advice.

[01:04:07] If there's one, um, myth about the MSP business that you'd love to bust, what would that be?

[01:04:17] It's a lot harder than people think.

[01:04:19] Yeah.

[01:04:21] If you're just starting one, if they're thinking of leaving your job.

[01:04:24] It's, it's, uh, it's easy to get started.

[01:04:27] It's a lot harder to sustain and grow.

[01:04:31] Um, uh, there's a lot of pressures.

[01:04:34] Um, there's a very high expectation.

[01:04:38] Of, of, um, you know, what, what, uh, um, of what we're delivering.

[01:04:46] Um, and, you know, there's, there's different approaches to that service delivery model.

[01:04:52] Um, I, you know, the, the, the, you know, the, the balance, you know, especially with today,

[01:05:00] um, we're have to, we're constantly evaluating our security posture, you know, and asking the

[01:05:07] question is what we're doing enough.

[01:05:09] Do we need to change something?

[01:05:11] You know, and, and some of those areas are changing faster than, um, than customers can

[01:05:17] absorb.

[01:05:17] Um, and so I think, I think that's the hard part is, uh, and I've heard this from very large

[01:05:24] MSPs to, to small MSPs is, um, uh, it's the speed at which our industry is moving, um, is

[01:05:34] challenging to, to keep up with.

[01:05:36] When you look at, um, the, the, the time to adopt, uh, different waves of, of technology,

[01:05:43] um, the adoption rate, uh, uh, speed is, is, has ever been increasing.

[01:05:49] You'll see this with like, uh, SAS companies of how many users did it take to get to, you

[01:05:54] know, this level?

[01:05:55] Um, the rates accelerating, you know, as people become less fearful, um, they're more quicker

[01:06:03] to adopt.

[01:06:04] So, uh, and, uh, so you have to constantly be training and retraining, right?

[01:06:13] So, um, what you trained on 10 years ago, um, yeah, there might be still some of that

[01:06:19] maybe, uh, out there to a degree.

[01:06:21] Um, but we need to train for the next 10 years, right?

[01:06:26] We need, we need to train for the things that we haven't done yet.

[01:06:31] That's the hardest part.

[01:06:33] Speaking of that, Keith, what are, what is something you're personally looking forward

[01:06:38] to?

[01:06:38] You know, I look forward to it.

[01:06:40] I have for a long time.

[01:06:42] Um, the more I see my organization function on its own, um, uh, tells me that I've created,

[01:06:52] um, uh, systems and not just function on its own, but, uh, with keeping its culture too.

[01:06:58] Right.

[01:06:59] So maintaining the culture and wanting to see it, uh, function on its own, uh, with, uh,

[01:07:07] you know, uh, less and less input needed from me as, as time goes on.

[01:07:13] Um, uh, and cause that's, that's one of the things that I've always wanted to see is just

[01:07:19] love, uh, love to see it, uh, just, um, you know, uh, you know, continue on, uh, with the

[01:07:30] foundation, uh, that we've built and put into place and to let other people carry those torches.

[01:07:37] Um, you know, I don't necessarily need to carry the torch all the way to the end.

[01:07:42] Right.

[01:07:43] Um, uh, we can, we can pass the torch along.

[01:07:47] Uh, and so, um, uh, but in order to do that, we have to have good systems and good training

[01:07:54] and good, you know, culture and good values, you know?

[01:07:58] Hmm.

[01:07:58] Well said.

[01:08:00] What, what's the one book you would recommend?

[01:08:05] The Go-Giver.

[01:08:07] Go-Giver.

[01:08:08] The Go-Giver.

[01:08:10] Amazing recommendation.

[01:08:11] I love that.

[01:08:13] Uh, Keith, how can folks get connected with you if that's something they can do?

[01:08:18] How can they find you online or connect with you?

[01:08:20] Yeah, you can find us, uh, through our website, uh, www.acoupleofgurus.com.

[01:08:26] Uh, I'm also on LinkedIn, uh, and, uh, uh, my, my email is Keith at a couple of gurus.com.

[01:08:34] Get a lot of email.

[01:08:35] So, uh, you might need to send more than one sometimes.

[01:08:38] Uh, uh, but, um, uh, we, we welcome, I welcome conversation.

[01:08:45] You know, uh, if there's people out there that, uh, are listening to this, that, uh, want

[01:08:52] or need career advice, I'm happy to talk.

[01:08:55] You know, I don't care where you are.

[01:08:57] Um, uh, uh, I'll give you 20 minutes and, and, uh, you know, uh, help you take, take the

[01:09:03] next step, uh, where, where, where you are.

[01:09:06] Wow.

[01:09:07] Make, make sure to take Keith up on that offer.

[01:09:09] That is just a blessing right there, Keith.

[01:09:12] And we'll definitely share the contact information, uh, that you gave.

[01:09:16] So if people can find that in the show notes, um, and, uh, I feel like I could talk to you

[01:09:21] all day, but I want to be a good steward of your time.

[01:09:24] Um, from the bottom of my heart, thank you for being on MSP Mindset Keith.

[01:09:29] Thank you for this opportunity.

[01:09:30] It's been a pleasure.