How ‘Getting Over Myself’ Built a Top MSP

[00:00:00] Hey guys, Damien here. As I continue to interview the top MSPs in the world, one thing has become incredibly clear. It's time that we let go. Even more than that, every time I focus on my zone of genius and get out of the way and do the very few things I'm good at and delegate to others, I'm ready for that next level of growth.

[00:00:20] One way that I can help you is with Servocity. We co-manage your backups and disaster recovery so you can focus on what you do best, let us do the rest, and then what we do is we test the backups every single day so you never have to worry. If you'd like to engage us or just learn more, click the link below. What did improv teach you that helped you apply that in the business world or in the sales world?

[00:00:44] Really just thinking on your feet and not like, again, kind of when I would go to networking events and that fight or flight mechanism kicks in or you're in sales and fight or flight kicks in and you're not thinking clearly, but it's just, you kind of learn to just think on your feet. And you also really like with improv, kind of builds your confidence every time you do it. You're like, wow, it was pretty funny. Like people were cracking up and like, so it's kind of the same thing with, you know, you start being on these panels, you start having discussions and it's like, well, maybe I'm, maybe I know a little more than I think I know and I'm a little smarter than I think I am and I talk a little better than I think I can.

[00:01:17] Hey guys, Damian Stevens, host of MSP Mindset, founder and CEO of Servocity. Today, I continue my mission to interview 100 of the fastest growing and most interesting MSPs on the planet. Today, I had a very interesting conversation with Jason Vanson about the fear of networking and talking to people. Now, he resorted to dragging his wife to networking events to get him to do it.

[00:01:44] Have you ever felt that fear in getting out of your comfort zone and let it paralyze you? Learn from Jason and how he leveraged things like improv, comedy, and even boxing to get out of his comfort zone. If you want to learn that and how to build a top 500 MSP like Jason, join us today.

[00:02:06] We were talking kind of backstage about both being introverts. So how do you go from the kind of what I would see as the stereotypical, you know, introverted IT guy to all of a sudden you're the one saying I'll handle sales.

[00:02:23] Yes. So I started networking. I used to drag my wife to a lot of networking events because she's not an extrovert or an introvert. So, you know, she would go with me and it was kind of like, you know, just made it easier for me because she would be chit-chatting with people and the people I've turned and they'd end up, you know, talking to me. And I'm an introvert, but I could probably sit down with anybody one-on-one, no matter like what their status is in the world and talk to them.

[00:02:51] My problem is like groups and I kind of get quiet, but yeah. So, you know, I just kind of forced myself and then I might've mentioned this when we talked previously, but, you know, I knew that was a problem because I knew I would go to networking events. Like if I went by myself and as soon as I started talking, like the fight or flight mechanisms kicking in my head and it's just like, I don't know what to say. Like, it's like, hi, you know, I'm Jason. All right.

[00:03:20] I don't know what to say next. My brain's like shutting off. Right. And then also kind of like dealing with like sales and you're getting pushback and you're getting like, you know, as an introvert, you tend not to like conflict as much. And like, so I just kind of like, and I joined a, not an IT peer group. I kind of got involved in this, this small local kind of group.

[00:03:47] And, you know, we would meet every week and talk about our challenges and stuff. And I kind of was just like, you know, it's kind of cool to come in and say, I did this, like I, I did this thing that they would never expect me to do. Cause they kind of knew my personality. They were all extroverts. And so one day I was just like, yeah, I should check out improv. So I went and found local improv and I, I signed up for it.

[00:04:17] And also like, I was thinking about the conflict stuff. I'm like, what's the most kind of scary thing about conflict. I'm thinking about what I can get into fistfights. Probably like the scariest thing. So I signed up for boxing. Wow. And like, so for this kind of period of time, I started doing improv and boxing. It did kind of rewire my brain a little bit. Yeah.

[00:04:40] Just because when you're doing improv and you're in front of an audience with other people, you know, kind of in this, this troop or whatever, like you have no clue what they're going to say. And every time I tried to plan without, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to come out with this idea. They, they have no clue. That's your idea. And then they say something else and just tell it, say like, you can't, you can't try and plan. Like, and if every time you do, you screw up the whole thing. So it's like, you know, just learning how to think on your feet, like I kind of started helping in the networking events.

[00:05:10] And then the boxing, it's just like, you get to the point where you spar, like there's kind of levels, but like when you get to the second and, you know, kind of intermediate, you start sparring. And it's like, you know, if you're going to kind of overcome that, it's like, what's the worst that's going to happen? So that really, I guess, kind of helped a lot. And then I'm not sure.

[00:05:31] What did improv teach you that helped you, you know, apply that in the, in the business world or in the sales world? Really just thinking on your feet and not like, again, kind of when I would go to networking events and that fight or flight mechanism kicks in or you're in sales and fight or flight kicks in. And, you know, you're just, you're not thinking clearly.

[00:05:57] So you come off awkward or you don't say, you know, so like just improv just kind of got you saying like, kind of what comes to your mind without, obviously you got to watch. You don't say something that's offensive or something, but like kind of just, you know, introverts kind of process internally before they put it out there. Yeah. So it kind of helped to like, okay, I don't have to sit here and like process the heck out of this thing or try to think of the most perfect thing to ever say, you know, on the face of your earth.

[00:06:27] Let me just like say it. So, you know, whether it's like, you know, now, so like now if I'm on a panel or something, I'm not, let's say I still get anxious. I'm still like, you know, stressed out about it. But it's just, you kind of learn how to handle it. Like somebody asked a question. I was on a healthcare panel a couple of weeks ago. And it's like, I had no clue what the questions were going to be, you know, just like, I don't know what your questions are going to be, but you kind of learn, just think on your feet.

[00:06:55] And you also relate, like with improv, like it kind of builds your confidence every time you do it. You're like, wow, that was pretty funny. Like people are cracking up and like people give you compliments and stuff. You're like, well, maybe I'm a total goofball, you know, baby. So it's kind of the same thing with, you know, you start being on these panels, you start having discussions and it's like, well, maybe I'm, I've got to know a little more than I think I know. And I'm a little smarter than I think I am. And I can talk a little better than I think I can. So. Yeah.

[00:07:24] So how far did you take improv? Did you go on stage besides practice? Like what, where did you get with that? Yeah. So you take like, I went through two classes, like the first, first level on second level. I didn't go to the third level. I did kind of start doing some shows. Like they were just outside the class. Like there was another guy that we kind of had a duo. It was kind of funny. We did this duo. We call it middle management.

[00:07:54] And so I'd come out and like a sport jacket. And he was like as tall, he would come out of sport jacket. He was like as tall. I mean, he was definitely nerdy looking, but he was so animated. And I'm kind of like, like people always said to me, you're like Jerry Seinfeld, like you're real, like kind of monotone, but then you got these zingers. So we would come out together. We'd have pretty, I think we might've had one bad show, but you know, we kind of did it for a while. And then I was doing boxing for a while.

[00:08:21] And then I would get, I would get, I got like hurt my ribs multiple times and be out for like six weeks before I come back. And then I was kind of like step back and was like, I gotta remember why I started all this. Like this, this isn't like the purpose of the, is it to get on Saturday live or to, you know, become some type of champion. I'm just here, you know, trying to get over these fears. So I kind of, kind of, you know, took what, took what I learned from it at that point and kind of just, you know, let's move on to the next, next learning experience.

[00:08:51] What did boxing teach you? Cause I kind of get improv thinking on your feet to, you know, what did boxing teach you? Right. You probably don't need to duck in your average sales meeting. Yeah. But I mean, I get kind of conflict, right? I think most people are afraid of conflict because they're afraid it's going to escalate to something physical. So I was like, if I can not worry about the physical so much again, every time I went to the spar, I don't think you ever get rid of it.

[00:09:17] Um, which one of the guys that was in one of my groups, uh, early on, he was, uh, like he would help medical researchers raise money for their research. He's like up in Boston, kind of run that whole, um, you know, biotech space. And he was super extroverted. And I remember we were just talking about one day and he's like, well, what's it like when you're like going to speak? And I'm like, well, my armpit starts sweating. And so, you know, I'm like, my heart's pounding.

[00:09:45] And I'm like, and he's like, same thing. I just, I think I'm excited. Yeah. So it's like, he has the same physical experience, but he sees it as he's excited to do this where I'm like, I'm seeing it as like fear of doing it. So, um, boxing's kind of like gives you that, um, um, um, I'm, I'm fearful going in and boxing. I mean, you know, at the gym, I mean, it was a legit boxing gym. It wasn't like some kind of aerobics boxing gym.

[00:10:14] It was like legit boxing. Uh, and, um, you didn't, you know, there was no weight classes in sparring or weight classes. So you, you'd spar with anybody. And so I'd be like super nervous. Got my introvert. Like, Oh my goodness. I can't believe what I'm going to do this, but then just kind of fighting through that and going and do it and survive. And then you're like, okay, I wasn't so bad. It was the same with improv.

[00:10:41] Every time I do go through improv, I'm like stressed out as can be. I'd be in the back, like green room, like walk pacing back and forth. And then you got and do it and you come off and you're like, I can't believe I did that. You know, you're like, it's like skydiving or something like, Oh my goodness. It's like such a rush. Um, and it just kind of builds up the, like, I think confidence that like, wow, I was able to do that. What else can I do? And then you just kind of keep, uh, I always tell my kids, it's like, you, you're not going

[00:11:10] to get the courage like ahead of time. You're going to build that courage as you do the thing that you were afraid of. And then you, you pulled it off and you're like, I wasn't that bad. And you do another thing. It's a little more challenging. And you just kind of keep doing that. And you know, it's like lifting weights, right? Like you're not going to, you're not going to get stronger by just looking at the bar and never go putting it up. So yeah. Yeah. Courage is, is doing the hard things in the presence of fear. Not, not having fear. Yeah.

[00:11:40] You're still going to have that fear either way. Uh, what other fears have you come to mind? Have you had to face if, as you built this business? Uh, I'd say fear of failure. I guess, I guess like, um, you know, I'm, um, uh, I mean, again, this is the other kind of epiphany I had at some point of just like, you know, talking to my kids, especially my son.

[00:12:08] I was like, you know, you're, you're not a failure as long as you keep trying. You're only a failure. Like when you stop, I'm like, think about the people that don't try. That's who you look at. And you think, wow, that person's like, you know, that person, a failure. Like you don't think somebody's a failure because they actually failed at whatever they're trying to do if they keep trying to do it. Um, so I kind of like, just, I mean, I guess that's kind of how you overcome it. Just like, okay, well just keep trying. Like if you decide you're going to climb Mount Everest, maybe you don't make it the first time. I don't mean you're a failure.

[00:12:35] If you go back and you do it the second time or third time, not that I'm going to do that, but I'm just saying like, yeah, I get the idea. Um, so I'd say that's a fear. And then I mentioned my, my son has, has, well, he still has special needs, but you know, he's older now. Um, so basically been one income as long as I've been married and had kids. So that's like always a fear of like, holy crap. What's, uh, I mean, even like, as I've done better, it's still a fear.

[00:13:04] Like, you just wait, like, is this stuff that's all going to disappear? And am I not gonna be able to take care of my family? And that's, I would say probably the biggest fear, one of the things that probably motivates me to a lot. I mean, I grew up poor, so it's like, I don't know, when you grow up poor, you kind of have this hunger of like not being poor again. Mm-hmm. I can, I can very much relate to growing up poor. I have three kids and some of which have special needs and being a single income provider.

[00:13:32] So very, very much relate to that, that drive, um, to do better, to be better. And, you know, you've got to be there in different ways. Yeah. Which is challenging because then you can kind of rationalize, like not spend as much time as, you know, especially not my kids are older now. I'm like, man, I should have spent more time. Like, yeah, everything. I always, you know, tell young people to have kids, like it's, it'll all work out, you know, so just enjoy it while you can.

[00:14:01] It's all going to work out. But, you know, when I was in it, it's like, it's so easy to like focus on work. So I've, you know, probably spent more time working than I should have, but I'm going to get up with the grandkids, I guess. Hopefully God willing. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, I wanted to talk about your, um, I see as kind of the, what I would call a superpower.

[00:14:29] Like you've created all these process, you know, you've gone from, you know, the, the, the tech guy starting a business to now, you know, really deep into cybersecurity, uh, CMMC compliance. Um, right. We were talking about how you, you love to think about the, not only the CISO, but the CIO, the VCO and VC so offerings. Uh, we were talking about, you know, brainstorming, you know, chief AI officer. You like to think about the roles.

[00:14:58] You like to break it down into processes. What started you on that journey? Um, well, I'll give a shout out to a C-level ops. I don't know if you know those guys, uh, C-level, uh, they help MSPs kind of build out processes. Okay. Um, again, I guess it kind of ties together. Like my, I always said I was lazy cause like, I like to be, I'm always trying to figure out how to get the work done with the least amount of effort.

[00:15:27] Um, so I think the mixture of that plus working with them, um, I guess I can kind of tell a story here. So in 2016, I got the bright idea to try to, you know, let's see if we can acquire another, another MSP. Um, and it's interesting cause you know, we're still just getting, we're barely started. And my original, uh, partner was in a BNI group. So I told him that he just started bringing it up.

[00:15:57] Like, Hey, we're looking to acquire another MSP. If you guys know anybody. And there was a guy in the group that knew a guy that owned the team logic franchise and he was ill and he was looking to get out of it. Um, so again, kind of going back to my real estate, like negotiations and like putting deals together. So I talked to this guy and then over, I don't know how many months, you know, negotiated a deal to acquire, uh, his book, just acquired his book of business.

[00:16:26] Didn't buy like the franchise off him. Um, cause there was a lot of, you know, I didn't want it. A lot of bad stuff on the books. Um, so I just bought, got bought the book of business. And, um, overnight, basically I went from, you know, I got two more engineers come on with us. Well, one and a half, one was part time. And I doubled our client count, but I didn't unfortunately double our revenue because they were smaller and they weren't charging enough.

[00:16:55] And, um, and I quickly learned like the wheels started coming off because me and my team that I built and the clients that I've built, um, like they knew how we worked. Like my team knew how we worked because we kind of just worked together every day. We were building this kind of over time. And then my clients, you know, we taught them how to work with us and we taught them how we do things.

[00:17:18] Um, it was a lot more efficient and theirs wasn't theirs was like, everybody calls in for support. Nobody emails, nobody uses the ticketing system. Nobody. Uh, and it was just all of a sudden our phone just blowing up like crazy. And it was just, yeah, it was, it was, I quickly realized like, wow, this is not going to work. And then again, bringing on two new people who didn't learn through osmosis.

[00:17:45] Um, and I happened to be a good IT nation that year and met C level at, you know, at their booth, which had been acquired by Pax eight. Um, but, uh, started working with them to build out our process. And we kind of just started from scratch. I mean, we had connect wise manage and stuff. We had our ticketing system, you know, we had our RMM, but we really didn't build out like well-defined processes, right? You get a ticket, somebody takes care of it and they close the ticket. We weren't tracking our billables at that point.

[00:18:15] You know, we were just billing, um, you know, typically a certain amount per month. And then we started working with them and just kind of build it out. And over time, they kind of helped me learn how powerful processes are. And then, you know, my passion of like figuring how to do things as efficiently as possible. Uh, like married with those processes. It's like, it's kind of just learn, realize like, Hey, I, we can figure out anything if

[00:18:44] we can figure out how to do it efficiently and then create a process. So we do it the same way every time and then continue to push. Like, can we make it more efficient? You know? So I'm always telling my team, like, if there's not a process, just throw a skeleton process together and follow it. You're going to figure out what's doesn't work. And then you improve the process over time. Um, so like when we started on the, um, like tooth.

[00:19:10] So I guess it's kind of, I guess it's kind of hard not to, not to tell you like how things progress without telling you some of the backstory. But my partner, when I did that acquisition before we actually completed the acquisition was out of the company. Cause he started going through a divorce kind of like right after we started the company, it was completely distracted. And so I ended up buying him out, which, you know, again, was another, another lesson learned. Um, so I had to buy him out. So I negotiate that.

[00:19:39] And then, um, you know, kind of was just doing it on my own for about three or four years. Um, we're growing, working with C-level, built out a lot of processes. We started working with, uh, chart tech cause we're like, okay, we gotta, you know, get our first, get a salesperson who like, um, you know, can sell and enjoy selling versus me. So we engaged with chart tech and, um, hired our first salesperson and put them through the training.

[00:20:09] And then we're kind of marrying up like the chart tech sales process and kind of how they package their solutions with, uh, with our C-level processes. And then just kind of like what we're good at. I forgot to mention, I got my CISSP kind of like right after I started right hand. Um, so it was like playing off the security aspect of it. Um, that was pretty early probably as far as a CISSP goes then. Yeah, there were still 10 modules.

[00:20:37] I think I was like, yeah, that's a lot of experience. And, um, not that there's a ton now, but my point is that that was, it was some years ago, right? So that was, uh, you were pretty early to the CISSP and cybersecurity game. Yeah. And I feel like it's MSPs or I don't want to say all MSPs, but I was, you know, say at least the good ones you're, you're doing cybersecurity anyways. So I was doing a lot of the cybersecurity.

[00:21:06] It was interesting because I was looking for something to hang our hat on is like, this shows that we're cybersecurity experts. Cause you know, just telling people you're, you, you are, it doesn't, doesn't always work. So I was like, I want to get a CISSP, but that's going to take some time. So I ended up like, I was like, I'll get my security plus first. And there was, um, there was, uh, they were getting ready to change the test. So I'm like, all right, well, I'll just take it. Uh, I'll just take it next week.

[00:21:35] So I schedule it next week before they change the test, like the following week. And I passed it and getting that. And then I went and got my CSS, CISSP. If you could tell like certifications were pretty big for me. Like when I was getting started, I have lots of certifications. Um, but, um, I forget where I was going with that. Yeah. No, no, it's, it's interesting that you're so early in the cybersecurity.

[00:21:59] Um, and, uh, I'm curious if there's a, was that just because of market demand or it was this, did that somehow tie into your process as you were creating all these processes? Um, no, I would say it was looking for a differentiator when we, when we were starting right. So right hand. So I guess I was doing cybersecurity again. I, I ended up having our largest clients at the DIT company I was at and required, you know, a lot more cybersecurity.

[00:22:29] I mean, not nothing like now, but like still required significant cybersecurity. I remember I put together, this was like 2006 or 2007. I put together this presentation for their executive team of like our strategy was to go, um, virtualize everything, manage services for, um, for like all the, all the IT services, cybersecurity services.

[00:22:57] And then I call them hosted applications because of cloud wasn't a big word yet. So like moving to, from Lotus Nose to hosted exchange, I was just, this is our strategy, which, you know, was a pretty, uh, was, it was pretty good headstart, I guess. Um, so I was doing a lot of security for those, those companies as, as we were going. And, um, you know, when I started the company, I'm like, I gotta, I gotta have a, a differentiator

[00:23:25] because everybody's, you know, the old saying is like, what's your, what's your differentiator? We're the best, you know, like everybody's saying we're the best. Absolutely. So I thought getting those certifications would be like something we can hang our hat on. It was like, then we were, you know, cybersecurity is our strength. And, um, so that's kind of why I went that route. Again, we were kind of doing it already. Um, and I work with larger clients. You're doing a lot more, there's just a lot more to, to worry about and deal with.

[00:23:53] Um, and then, um, in 2019, I ended up a body of mine. It was actually my boss at that IT company. Uh, I left and he left maybe a few months later, but he was my boss the whole time. Um, you know, we kept in touch for a long time. I've known him now 20, 24 years.

[00:24:15] Um, but he was running sales and marketing for, uh, a big Microsoft partner here in Pittsburgh. And they were like, you know, a hundred employees, probably 25 million or more per year in revenue. Um, working a lot with larger enterprise clients, all project work. Um, and he ended up leaving there.

[00:24:43] Um, and we kind of got together, have lunch and we would, we would have lunch and drinks or whatever periodically throughout the years. And I was like, well, you know, I'd love to do something with you at some point because, you know, I always enjoyed always. Cause I always used to help people out, you know, he was, he was a pain in the butt as a manager, but he was very effective and he was very good at like recruiting the right people. And, um, so I was like, you know, I'd love to, you know, do something with you at some point. And I kind of guess, yeah, he was in his forties still and kind of retired.

[00:25:12] And, um, so we kind of kept talking, negotiating, and then he ended up buying into the business to head up sales and marketing for me, like head up to the set, the business development side in 2019, like late second half of 2019. And he kind of, um, had all those contacts with larger companies.

[00:25:37] Um, so like we kind of had our chart tech process going and it was just getting started. We weren't like fully cranking it out, like full, like con, you know, we didn't have consistent sales and he was coming and taking over. So he kind of went to what he knew, which is those contacts. And then we'd be talking to these larger clients and, you know, we've, we just started talking a lot about cybersecurity cause he knew I had my CISSP and that was a differentiator.

[00:26:05] So we just would be talking cybersecurity. We'd be talking cybersecurity to like people that are cybersecurity people. And I was like, kind of amazed that, um, you know, that again, it was kind of like some of the other things, like you're like, wow, I'm not, I, maybe I know this stuff more than I thought I did, you know, because they, they didn't know it as well as I thought they did. And, um, you know, eventually, um, we got our first like larger client who wanted us to do

[00:26:36] this V-SISO cybersecurity and cybersecurity program for them. And literally we just got me and, um, two of my other team members just pulled the whiteboard out, just started like, well, what's this thing going to be? We just started again, kind of making that skeleton of a process. What's going to be included? What's not going to be included? How's it going to work? And then, um, you know, pitched it to them and they went for it.

[00:27:02] And that was kind of the launch of like focusing more on like doing cybersecurity programs. And then, um, that was late 2019. And then companies started, you know, CMMC started becoming a big thing, even though it was CMMC 1.0. Um, but one of our clients that was, that kind of came with me through this whole process was with me when I was with that other company, they were, they were, uh, going to be CMMC

[00:27:32] compliance or compliant. And they reached out to me and asked me if I knew anybody that could help them with that. I'm like, well, this is how bad we are at marketing. They don't even know if we do this stuff. So like, yeah, we could help you. And then we kind of put together their program. And then, um, again, we kind of got in with an, uh, MEP manufacturing enterprise partnership out of Florida and they started, they basically get grant money.

[00:28:01] We started doing CMMC assessments and that was just like every, so we did our first assessment, probably not as efficient as we wanted it to be. That is just like, okay, well, how do we replicate this? And then we got it super efficient, um, where we, you know, we were, we were getting great billable rates at the end there. Um, and it was just kind of like kept doing, I kept improving it. Now we kind of, now we have a, like a coaching option for our visa ISO.

[00:28:25] So, um, you know, a company might have IT people, but they just don't have the, the security knowledge, um, or a compliant, you know, the understand the frameworks. Um, so we kind of just basically do a weekly call with them, walking them through. I always like tell people like, we're going to do the exact same process. If you hired us to do it all for you, it's just, you're going to do the work and we're going to walk you through it. So that's like what our coaching is. I kind of stole it off a C level, to be honest.

[00:28:52] Like, it's like, wow, this is kind of a cool, cool offering you guys have here. And so we basically kind of took that and did our visa ISO coaching. I love that. Yeah. Uh, so, um, what, what would, what advice would you give to your, to your former self? You know, if you could go back and look at your, yourself, you know, 10 years ago or,

[00:29:19] or, or, you know, sometime when you're kind of getting, getting going, maybe two or three folks, like you've obviously come along. We learned a lot. What, what advice would you give to your former self? Um, I mean, I, I would say one of the, something I've learned recently, I think I mentioned before I'm, I'm in strategic coach, Dan Sullivan strategic coach, you know, they're really big

[00:29:44] on unique ability and like, you know, you're basically kind of mapping out, like, what am I, what am I good at? You know, what am I really good at? And also energizes me. What am I good at, but doesn't energize me? What am I not so good at that doesn't energize me? And what do I like, Hey, you know, I might be messing. So I was up a little bit, but like, yeah, kind of learning, like, cause again, you can

[00:30:08] kind of see, I forced myself to do a lot of things like, you know, like sales matter, no matter how good I am at it, it's going to drain me. I'm never going to be as effective as somebody who is energized by it. So I would say like, if I go back and talk to my younger self, now granted that could change everything in my life for good or bad. Right. I don't know. Cause I, I learned a lot by doing stuff I didn't really want to do.

[00:30:33] Um, but like, I think figuring out that unique ability, I was telling my kids now, like figure out what you love. You'll you're figure out a way to make money at it at some point versus trying to figure out how to make money. It might not be something you love and then you're miserable. But, um, I would say that's the biggest thing, like find the people whose unique ability is what you're not energized by. Um, you know, so for me, like I probably should have got somebody to do sales a long time ago.

[00:31:00] I think I tried, which a lot of times doesn't work out with the partnerships, but, um, yeah, yeah, I would say that's kind of the biggest thing. And also you got to partner up with people that are, I don't know, they don't have to necessarily be as motivated as you, but they gotta be like aligned with like your, like, we're going to make this work no matter what. So if they're in charge of sales and they like, and that's their thing, they gotta be like, okay, come hell or I water.

[00:31:27] I'm going to make the sales successful versus like, um, you know, people that they're not as hungry or they're not as motivated to get the end result. And there's tough times. There's, uh, it's hard to figure things out. You know, they're gonna, um, they're gonna not there in the long run. So then you're kind of starting over. Yeah. So most MSPs, if not all struggle with sales and specifically because we're usually tech

[00:31:55] introverts that aren't natural sales people. And so you, you know, you, I love that you put yourself in improv and boxing to get out of your comfort zone and develop those skills and kind of be the owner led sales. But how did you break past that? Like what, what was the secret that helped unlock? Because I felt like the next level is where even less people make it, where you go and you hire somebody and you haven't set up process.

[00:32:23] You don't have good expectations and they fail. And then you repeat that, you know, infinitely. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if I haven't figured it out yet. I'm still trying to figure it out. So we, uh, again, when John, my, my partner, uh, he's still my current partner, but he's actually out of the business now. Um, he came in the run sales and marketing and it, um, it, again, kind of like I'm saying every time I don't like he, he was already retired. He's got a good life.

[00:32:53] He doesn't have the same like motivation. I have good guy. Nothing, you know, nothing against him. Um, it's just, we've, you know, sales marketing is tough. And like, if you're not willing to do whatever it takes, not willing to learn. If you feel like you've already, you know, I think success also could breed like, um, this, like, I don't need to learn anymore. Like I've already been there, done that. So I think like he had a lot of success and coming into an MSP, it's not the same.

[00:33:21] Like selling a project, there's not a ton of risk on a project. Like if the project goes bad, you never use that company again. Right. Like you got it. And then you lost some money that you got to get somebody else to do it. Right. But man services, we're trying to do a three-year agreement. There's a lot of, a lot of risk. Right. So like, it's just a lot harder to sell. You got to sell the value a lot more. And a lot of times you're going in for people that weren't even thinking they needed all this and trying to convince them that they need all of it versus like a project.

[00:33:49] They're like, well, I need to migrate to Microsoft 365. I need to find somebody to do it. And then you just got to convince them you're the right company to do it. So yeah, I guess going back to sales, I'm still trying to figure it out myself. Like right now I'm trying to, again, I always got, unfortunately I didn't have like, my partner didn't develop sales processes because he was just kind of had the contacts and was good at selling.

[00:34:17] So now I'm trying to build sales processes because I'm not, I don't have that, that like natural sales. And so I'm kind of like trying to figure out, okay, how do I, what's the process that we can generate consistent leads? You know, what's the marketing processes? What's the, you know, kind of when I'm doing podcasts and stuff. Um, and I do have a full-time, uh, business development manager that's, um, or sales, you

[00:34:44] know, account executive that's new, you know, he's here a few months. So again, going to strategic coach, I kind of went there and I was like, kind of telling him what's going on. And I'm like, you need to hire somebody. Cause again, I was like, all right, bootstraps, let's grab the bootstraps and let's get out there and start selling. They're like, you need to hire somebody. Why would you take all that back on? So I, you know, I was like, yeah, you're right. So I started looking for somebody, got somebody, uh, he actually just went out to chart text.

[00:35:11] I'm kind of circling back to some previous, um, things that I think we're on the right path and we're kind of building that all out. So I don't want to sound like I got it figured out. We did have, you know, with the security and larger clients, we did have some success over the past few years that helped us grow. But, um, there's a lot of M&A in that space as well. As you can imagine with, see, I mean, this is what I think is going to, I think it's going to be like HIPAA, like HIPAA drove, like all this massive consolidation and healthcare.

[00:35:39] I think you're going to see the same thing in a lot of the DOD stuff. So it's going to become so expensive to get all that compliance in place that people are going to end up consolidating. So there's a lot of M&A. So that means you, you know, you got this great big client, this contract, but then they get acquired by a company bigger than them. And they, they, you know, they bring it all back in house. So, you know, kind of getting back to what's the process to generate leads for, uh, for

[00:36:07] us, we want clients that are, uh, you know, cybersecurity conscious. Like we don't want some of them, our small companies just don't care. I mean, some MSPs don't even care about cybersecurity, but you know, a lot of small businesses still just don't care about cybersecurity. And for us, it's like our target client profile. You have to, you have to either be driven by compliance or you have to like, maybe had something happen in the past and cybersecurity, like you value it because we're not going to sit there and try and convince you that cybersecurity is serious and you need to take it serious

[00:36:36] and keep fighting with you on it. So that's kind of our focus and trying to like drive those leads and then get my, uh, you know, I'm usually, you know, we're usually tag teaming right now, me and the, and the sales guy, but get him to the point where he's self-sufficient. Um, and then just kind of keep building that team. You know, I, I had a, um, again, I'm still learning. So I had a fractional CMO that I hired and, um, you know, again, didn't work out.

[00:37:05] So hiring people is the hardest thing. I think, especially for each of us, cause I think you'd like want everybody to be like what they say they're going to be and do what they say they're going to do. And you're like, ah, it should be awesome. And then it doesn't always work out. They definitely can. Sometimes the best salespeople, the best sale they make is the, the one to get me to hire them. Um, unfortunately. Yeah. What have you learned about the hiring process?

[00:37:33] Have you brought in other ways to have processor tools to make that more predictable? Um, honestly, we just slow it down and we've slowed it down a lot. So it used to kind of be, oh man, we need a body, you know, we need a body or somebody quit and now we can hurry up and scramble. We've really just slowed it down and like drawn the process out a little longer. I wouldn't say it's long, but like, it sounds longer when I describe like all the steps,

[00:38:02] but like, again, kind of making it more of a process where before it would just be like, all right, schedule some interviews, go in, fly by the seat of your pants, ask questions, come up with troubleshooting questions that you can kind of think of off the top of your head to, you know, kind of like, okay, let's, let's have our, you know, um, quick 15 minute phone interview, kind of just like you're selling, you don't go straight into your discovery. You're going to have a 15 minute call to see if it's even worth spending that time.

[00:38:30] So, you know, having that quick, um, 15 minute phone interview to see if there, which screens up almost everybody. Cause so many people are just like, what do you, you know, what's your kind of, what's your career goals or what are you looking to do in your next position? It's just like, well, um, I don't know, you know, I'm just looking for a job. It's like, but you know, just kind of slowing down and going through this process is making sure multiple people on a team interview them, um, having a good set of questions to draw

[00:38:59] out, like, what are their core values? What are they really excited about seeing, you know, are they going to tell you like true things or is it going to be like, um, you know, you know, the old, like tell me one of your weaknesses and they tell you some strength that's their weakness. So like figuring out how to ask questions to, I guess it's kind of that open-ended question,

[00:39:24] you know, philosophy, like getting them to talk versus in the past you'd ask leading questions, you know, do you like fixing problems? Yeah. Yeah. So this must be the right guy. Let me hire that one. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and then we started doing, I think I mentioned last time we started doing Colby, uh, the Colby profile, um, on all of our employees and we haven't really hired or not

[00:39:51] hired somebody based on that, but I do think it's, it's helpful to kind of know. Um, cause it also is a manager. It'll tell you kind of how you relate to that person, which is pretty cool. Like if they're not a fast start or they're a fact finder and they're not a fast start, you're going to have to really make sure you're explaining all the minute details before they'll ever actually move forward with something versus just like telling them like a fast start. That's not a fact finder. You can kind of just tell them something vague and they're going to go get after it.

[00:40:21] So understanding that. And then, um, you know, we've done this profiles as well. I also do like the disc profile again, mainly not so much to, I guess if someone's way off, you're probably not going to hire them. Right. Like someone's, uh, um, you know, a high D I and you're hiring them to be a support help desk person. They're probably not going to be very good. Um, so I guess, but typically we're talking to people that are, they typically fit the profile.

[00:40:47] So it's more of just understanding their, you know, how you can communicate with them, what they're, and you, you know, like high S's like, you know, like they're not going to tell you there's a problem until it's too late. So like understanding that so you can kind of like try and draw out a problem ahead of time. Um, it's, it's pretty helpful, but again, I wouldn't say we use them as much during the hiring process as we should.

[00:41:15] When we hired the sales, uh, our sales guy, um, we were, I don't know if you know KLA. They're like, uh, like a sales training coaching. I think they do marketing too. Um, but they kind of helped us recruit him and they kind of, they use this profiling tool that kind of identifies, well, one of their sales at all, but then also are they a hunter versus a farmer and things like that?

[00:41:42] I forget what it's called, but, um, we've, you know, used that for, for him. I know chart tech uses desk. I know you, I think you mentioned there's, uh, I think I took it. I don't know what the results are yet, but you got, you mentioned why we were talking last time. Yeah. Yeah. We've developed some of our own, some, I'm big into trying to understand what might be my unique ability is, what my team's is. And like you said, however you want to slice it, fact finder versus quick start or just

[00:42:10] different verbiage, you know, whether it's in your 80% or your 20, still just understanding people. Yeah. It has always been a passion of mine and, and, uh, and, uh, wanting to build that strong culture, which means understanding the people I have and, and doing my best to let only the right people on as we do hire. Yeah. Um, it's been a long journey because, you know, people are the ultimate, you know, thing to try to understand, right.

[00:42:40] You know, they're not, uh, it's not a network that's reproducible. Yeah. Yeah. And so, um, so yeah, it's been a, it's been a really interesting journey to try to more deeply understand people, um, and why you come out of that way. Um, yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure being IT people and introverts, it's like even harder for us because this is like, I don't naturally want to get into what people are feeling and all those things. It's just kind of like, you got a job to do, do your job.

[00:43:08] You know, it's just kind of the, again, kind of being a go getter, like get after things. It's always like, well, why aren't you just, you know, why aren't you just getting after this and getting this done? You know? So, uh, it does help. Um, it can be really tough in a team of introverts to talk about something and any questions? You've already said anything crickets, you know, cause everything. Oh yeah. I'm always like, well, we have our, you know, team meetings and it's just like trying to get people to talk.

[00:43:36] It's like the quietest room and you, you know, you're like, well, I'm going to give a comp, you know, I'm going to give a kind of a company up, you know, we do EOS. So like every quarter you got to do a company update. It's like, does anybody care about this? Like, are you guys just like, yeah, whatever. But it's just how engineers are. They just sit there and listen. Yeah. Yeah. I was trying to learn the nuances of people and, and the actual person, like try to figure

[00:44:02] out how to draw them in because what I found is some of the most introverted people, if you ask the right question, can all of a sudden be very talkative because maybe that's their area or something they're passionate about. And so they'll all of a sudden open up and talk. And, uh, yeah, um, there's been folks that like our company is like, I didn't know that person really talked, you know, they opened up and talk to me about this. Uh, and so it's been a gift.

[00:44:28] I wanted to switch gears for a moment, Jason, and ask what's the biggest lesson you've learned over all your years in business? Um, biggest lesson. I would say, I mean, I think it's really a lesson on life is just like, I think kind of understand you can learn anything if you're willing to, you know, if you're willing to

[00:44:55] kind of, again, I think this is an introvert quality to some extent of, I mean, not only introverts, but like introverts are really reflective and kind of self introspective. So you're in, you know, you tend to see your flaws. Very well. Yeah. So I think like with that, it's been very like, okay, I'm not good at this. I need to get better at this. I need to learn this.

[00:45:18] And, you know, also learning that like, I don't know, I probably sound like a, I'm a motivational junkie, but like I went to Tony Robbins, I think actually kind of around the time I started the company. Um, and you know, he talked about like things that motivate people and there's like four of them, like, uh, growth contribution. I forget the other two, but they're the negative ones.

[00:45:44] I don't know if it was like status or like power, maybe I, but like that kind of like stuck with me. Like that's when I'm the most like happy when I'm growing, learning something new or I'm contributing. I haven't, you know, probably, you know, being focused on business and, and take care of family. I haven't probably spent as much time in the contribution as I like, but I know like, you know, volunteering at the fish fry for the charts and stuff, it just kind of like makes you happy, you know?

[00:46:11] So, um, or if you, you know, do something for charity or, or help somebody in general, it just kind of makes you happy. So like understanding those two things, like personal growth, it's like the one thing that you can control, right? Like you can't control a lot of other things, but you control your personal growth. Like, what are you learning? What are you pushing? You know, like, um, so that's kind of been my biggest, I wouldn't say just necessarily in business, but life. And luckily I learned it, um, going way back when I was at computer associates and I was getting those certifications.

[00:46:41] I remember this, I have these like weird epiphanies and they're like, probably, you know, not as, not as profound as I think they are, but I remember just being like studying for my CCNA and like, I already did a couple other certifications, but I'm like, I paid 50 bucks for this book and taught myself all this stuff. And I was like, I can teach myself anything with books. Like, this is pretty amazing. And I'm a guy who, you know, I don't think I read a book, maybe, maybe one book. I might've read how to eat fried worms or something like that in elementary school, but

[00:47:09] like somehow breeze through school without like ever really getting good at reading. So that, I think that's why I was like an epiphany and be like, holy moly. Like, so I just kind of like, just never stopped reading, which we were talking about previously. Just like always, always have something you're reading. Um, then the challenges is like limiting what you read and like, not like thinking the bookstore is a buffet and you're just piling on everything on your plate that you're never going to be able to eat.

[00:47:38] But yeah, I don't know if that answers the question, but that's, I'd say the biggest thing. Yeah. If there was one thing you could do over or differently, what would that be? Um, I mean, besides spend more time with my kids, whenever younger, a lot that I was like, I totally like, uh, you know, like dirt bag or anything. I'm just, you know, I probably could have took more days off work and vacations and stuff like that.

[00:48:05] But, um, I would say, yeah, one thing I would do differently, probably just, um, uh, I like partnerships. I do like, even though I'm an introvert, you know, and you tend to like be by yourself. I love doing stuff with people. Like, as far as like business, like I have, like I always liked partners, but unfortunately I haven't had a ton of luck finding the right partners that are like as motivated as I am.

[00:48:34] Um, but, uh, I would say that's either probably just not do as many partnerships, but again, I learned, I learned something each time, but it does kind of create this, like, um, this pull back in the wrong direction when you got to separate from a partner. Cause now you gotta like fill that back up. You gotta take on more roles. You, you know, you, if you probably end up spending more money than if you didn't have to buy out the partner, right?

[00:49:02] Um, and you know, you can get employees that are, um, you know, like my, my one, uh, employee, my service manager, he works harder. And like my business partners have, I mean, he's just finding the right people that are motivated and go getters. And you can, you can have people on your team and reward them, you know, adequately and everything that keep them, keep them inspired and motivated, but they'll work just as hard

[00:49:31] as somebody has equity. Um, if, if, if they're inspired. So I think maybe that maybe, maybe, uh, find the right people that are inspired enough to, um, again, but I'm not against partnerships. So I guess that's why Mike has didn't say it, but I just know my luck, my luck hasn't been, hasn't been there with the partnerships, but I'm not, I probably do it. I'll probably end up doing it again. Cause that's, uh, yeah, I think the second one worked out better in the first one. I was better in the first two.

[00:50:02] Maybe the trajectory is improving. Yeah. Yeah. It's fine. It's kind of one that's like, again, I think as committed as you are, it's only finding a spouse, right? Like, like, like, like you gotta, you gotta find a spouse that is committed to you as you are to them that like, no matter what, once we say yes, we're not going to, you know, we're not there's like, it's not an option to leave. Like, um, so like it's kind of the same with the partner. Like once we, once we say we're, and they always say it's like a marriage, but like,

[00:50:31] once we say we're going to, this is our goal. And so we're going to, we're both going to do whatever it takes to get this done. And, um, again, you can have employees be that same way. And then, you know, maybe you sell at some point and you reward them. Um, but those have been, I would say some of my biggest, I don't say regrets, but like, you know, maybe I'll do it over if I had to go back, maybe just have those people as employees instead. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:58] What's a myth about running an MSP that you'd love to dispel? Uh, I would say some of the biggest, man, I'm sure you've probably seen. And, and, but the biggest myth is that people won't pay for, you know, you look at people charging, you know, we're probably two 50 a seat now. So you look at people charging that when you're, you know, starting an MSP or maybe you're a few years into it, you know, there's no way people are going to pay that.

[00:51:26] And you're, you're, you're not charging enough, but then you're not, you can't deliver what you're promising, which has been one of my, I guess another lesson I kind of learned a long time ago. Um, which I quote from a book. You know, I quote a lot of time from books. It's like, uh, it's like all my, so much of my knowledge comes from books, but like Gary Keller, I'll try to get back to what I was saying, but Gary Keller, um, you know, founder Keller Williams,

[00:51:53] he wrote a book called the millionaire real estate agent, which I, I read when I first got my real estate license, but then I reread it. Like when I started writing and he talks about, um, like modeling. So you want to find like people that, um, are doing what you want to do, right? Getting the results you want to get, and then you want to model them. But what people do, and I've done this so many times, you know, it's kind of embarrassing, but like what people do is they look at the model and then they tweak it or like,

[00:52:23] they know better and they, and then they don't get the results. And they're like, well, that doesn't work. And it's like, no, you gotta, you gotta look at the model. You gotta follow the model until you're getting the same results as them. And then you can tweak it a little bit and see if you can get better results. But like, um, you know, I've kind of done that, uh, so many times myself, but, but, um, yeah. Wait, what did I say? I'm going to get back to. Yeah. And there's the myth about the MSP.

[00:52:50] And so I think like when you're in, you're an MSP, like look and see what those people are doing because there's a reason they're charging that much. They're not just charging that much. Cause they just, you know, they're greedy or something. It's just like, right. And for me kind of was it like the other thing I learned from that book, that's kind of why I guess I originally brought up the book is, you know, he talks in the book that like, um, and again, I think it's probably a myth, but like that people fall into is like, you

[00:53:19] think that you're the only one who can do it. Like your clients love you because of the way you do it. And like, how are you going to replace yourself with, uh, you know, another person? Cause they don't do it as good as you and clients aren't going to like them. And then you'll lose that client. And, you know, he's talking about real estate agents and he's like, they don't like you. They like, they like your standards. So you need to create processes and procedures that give them those standards and then they'll,

[00:53:48] they'll stick with you matter who's actually doing the work. And I kind of like, you know, I think that's a myth that people, again, kind of me too, like the clients love me. And sometimes you don't even know how you're doing it that like people like working with you. That's just like, so you don't know how to systematize it. Um, that's kind of a big myth is like, it's not you, it's your standard. So like kind of tying it back to the, how much you charge per month. Like at some point you're going to need somebody else to do what you're doing.

[00:54:17] If you're doing a good job, which is questionable if you're not charging enough, then you need to charge enough so that you're able to replicate yourself and deliver that same service that you said you're going to do. Cause when you start out and you're doing all the work, you know, you're, you're able to charge less because like you're just supporting yourself, right? Your tool stack might not be that expensive. So, um, but at some point you're going to have to build teams and systems and infrastructure. And if you're not charging enough, you're not going to do that.

[00:54:44] And then you're not gonna be able to deliver that standard that people love. And that's what happens a lot. You know, we talked to, I'm sure, you know, again, you probably seen this a lot. We talked to prospects and they're like, you know, then, then they take like two weeks to get back to me and all this stuff. And I'm like, well, how much are you paying? That's like 500 bucks for like 20 people. Well, don't wonder. It's like, they have to have, you know, to say they're charging 50 bucks a user and we charge 250.

[00:55:12] Well, they have to have five times the amount of clients to do the same amount of business as us. So who do you think is going to give you better service? Like one has five times the clients or us who has five, you know, one out of five clients that we can just spoil. It's kind of always, you know, been our kind of our thought processes. Like if we can have less clients that we can then spoil and take care of and do the proper

[00:55:38] guidance and the proper cybersecurity and put a VCIO in place and put a VSISO in place, then you're gonna be able to deliver that standard. You're gonna be able to take care of them. You're gonna be able to grow. They're gonna stick with you. And you're gonna be able to keep the right people too, because that's the other, you know, you're gonna charge enough. How are you going to get the right people on your team? So, but we see that we still see it all the time. It's frustrating. And it's like, you see these agreements are like, how are they even delivering service for this amount? Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:56:08] So I'm curious, your take on this, you know, it seems like you're early in virtualization, early in cloud, early, pretty early. It sounds like really in cybersecurity, CMMC. So you've been early in a lot of, you know, key areas. What is it that you're looking forward to in terms of what's coming up? Like, what's got you excited? Well, I'm sure it's probably obvious to everybody the answer.

[00:56:35] But AI, I mean, it's just like, you know, all everybody's talking about it. Every conference. I did a presentation last week with, or a webinar last week with, I don't know if you know, Hats AI. Jimmy, Jimmy Hats. Jimmy Hats. Yeah. So there, we did a webinar with those guys for Investment Casting Institute, which is like foundries and stuff. And I kind of joked around that like everywhere you go, everybody's talking about it. You know, at the conferences, that's all they're talking about is AI.

[00:57:05] You know, even the caterers are talking about, you know, how they're going to use AI for their food service. Like, there's AI everywhere. So I'm excited about it because I do love technology. Like, you know, we've gotten really good at cybersecurity, but ultimately, I'm a geek. Like, I just love technology. So like, you know, my problem is like, you know, I probably shouldn't put my hands in as much as I do because like, I kind of like find myself kind of wanting to spend more time

[00:57:35] doing more like a CPO type stuff. But like, you know, so I've been really like myself playing a lot with automation and AI, like using things like make.com and all the different models and Airtable. And so, you know, I build out a lot of different content generating stuff. And then I'm like, augmenting our, like augmenting some of our tools, like to streamline a process.

[00:58:04] Like, you know, one day I'm like, well, how do we know if like, you know, we got 50 workstations that haven't checked into Sentinel-1 for 30 days and we're paying Sentinel-1 for all these agents. And so, like, so I've, you know, basically created a make.com automation that queries Sentinel-1 and figures that out and creates tickets for us if, you know, if somebody hasn't checked in for 30 days. So it was like all these little, all these little things you can do to kind of like streamline

[00:58:33] things without, again, extra people or, and then, you know, I think what we were talking about, you know, in our kind of our pre-show or whatever you want to call it, is kind of the chief artificial intelligence officer. So I kind of see the need just like the VCIO, the VSISO of having this chief artificial intelligence officer that can kind of go in and guide small businesses through a process

[00:59:02] of how to implement these technologies and implement them securely. I don't know if you saw, it was just like a research study about like 40% of employees admitted to sending confidential data into chat GPT and things like that. So like... Just the ones that admitted it. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, if you don't, if you don't have a policy of how you're allowed to use these things and then you don't give them something that is authorized to use, well, they're going to, they're going to find it on their own. Right.

[00:59:31] So, you know, helping them through the security aspect of it. But then start going through, just like we do on the cyber side, we're walking through what are your business processes, you know, trying to figure out the criticality, recovery time objectives, all those different things. You can kind of do the same thing on the AI side. Like, what is your business process? How do you do it? And kind of, you know, if you got the right person delivering a service, then they should be able to see how you can automate things, how you can build out efficiencies and kind of

[01:00:01] help them do those, right. And then implement them over time. And obviously from a time, from, you know, labor perspective, you got to kind of figure out a flow. So it's not like a full time job for somebody, but you know, you've, you put, you know, you kind of start off small. It's like, kind of start off small. I'm just like, okay, well, how do I, how do I take one small thing out of here and then build on it for this client?

[01:00:28] And, you know, the thing is I'm excited about it is I think it's the cybersecurity super important, but it's not like clients aren't excited about it. Right. Like they're not like, oh man, I really want cybersecurity where with AI, it's like, listen, we might be able to pay for ourselves. Like we might be able to help you build up efficiencies that you don't have to hire the next person or you don't have to, you know, or when someone leaves, maybe you don't have to replace them or, you know, whatever, you might be able to do more. You might be able to sell more. You might be able to.

[01:00:58] So I think that's like a lot more, a lot more interesting for clients that want to talk to you. Right. So right now we lead, you know, we lead with cybersecurity, but I think if we can move towards leading with AI, with knowing that we're kind of a cybersecurity first company, so you can kind of know that's handled, but you know that we're going to be able to help you drive AI adoption, I think that could be huge. Right.

[01:01:25] But it's always still got to worry about the people. I mean, build out the process, but then I think with AI, those, well, even the V-SISO stuff, you still need people that can take that process and understand it and then deliver it well to your clients. Right. Like not everybody can do that. Like not everybody can do the V-SISO. So, you know, even though we have a process and we use the frameworks, it's not like we're making our own frameworks. You know, we use the frameworks at hand, but you still have to be able to run those meetings,

[01:01:55] run cybersecurity steering meetings with executives, be able to talk to them kind of on a business level. Absolutely. And not everybody can, you know, can do that. So that's the biggest challenge. What is your take on the opportunity right now with AI? Should, as an MSP, should you be just starting conversations or are you driving revenue with it? Is it wait and see and sit on the sidelines for now?

[01:02:22] Well, again, I guess it comes down to what kind of MSP you are. If you're, you know, if you're an MSP that's charging enough, you should probably put some effort into getting somebody up to speed to deliver that. Because, you know, I'm sure, you know, one of the biggest challenges is MSP. If you're not delivering it, somebody else is going to come in and deliver it. And then they can take your whole client versus just that one. You know, someone comes in and says, we offer this chief artificial intelligence officer solution or offering.

[01:02:52] And you don't, well, you might lose your entire client versus just them getting that business. Right. So I think if you're charging enough, you should be probably doing it. If you're charging 50 bucks a user, you should probably figure out how to deliver what you're already saying you're delivering because you're probably not delivering it. Absolutely. I think it just depends on your maturity level as an MSP. What's the one book that you would recommend everybody read?

[01:03:27] That's hard. That's like, you know, which one of your child's the favorite? You know, it kind of depends on what you're looking for. But I mean, I guess if I had to press one book, I'd always have to say the Bible or something like that. But on a business side, Miracle Morning was really a big thing for me when I started. And there was like all these variations of it, like the millionaire entrepreneur morning.

[01:03:55] And then like there was real estate ones and parenting ones. But like kind of just is like working on yourself first. So getting up early, having like your ritual of, you know, they call them the savers. But like these different things, journaling, reading, exercising, meditating. I don't do all of them still, but like I still do. I get up at 4, 430 every morning. I read every morning.

[01:04:25] And I was journaling. I kind of dropped that. I don't know. I'm a big believer if something's not effective or working for you, don't keep doing it because it is a ritual. But reading obviously always adds value. But I would say that's a good short book that like drastically changed like the way I approach self-improvement and then it kind of gives you that space to continue that improvement, right?

[01:04:53] Like if you're already, because my service manager, I kind of got him doing it when he started working for me. He gets up early and I do now. But, you know, he's, I mean, he lost like 100 pounds. He's like, he's like, you know, he's like huge. He's a big dude. He's like 6'4", like 230. I think he's like 6% body fat. He's like pretty jacked dude. But when he started working for me, it was like 330.

[01:05:20] He was strong because we used to lift weights together and he was putting up a lot of weight. But, you know, he does it as well. And you just kind of, we always joke around. It was just like before everyone else is getting up, we're like a half a day, half a day in, you know? So like it kind of just gives you that space to like work on yourself or maybe if you got something you need to focus on, you got that space to focus on it when everyone else is sleeping. So you're not going to get interrupted. So I think it was a good book. Yeah.

[01:05:50] I give you a lot of other ones. That's a great book by Hal Elrod. Yeah. Well, Jason, how could folks find you online? Well, I don't, I mean, I don't have a ton of places to find me. You know, obviously we have our website, writingandtechnologygroup.com. And I'm probably the best place is going to be LinkedIn, you know, to just slash Jason Vansen. You know, I post there pretty much every day. I put a newsletter out every Wednesday.

[01:06:21] So I'm trying to build up the LinkedIn. It's yeah. I don't know. I don't know if your luck has been on it. It takes a lot of effort on LinkedIn. It's not like some places. It really does. Yeah. Yeah, it really does. Well, this, this is amazing. I feel like I could do this all day with you if I, if I was able to, but I just want to thank you for the gift. I've learned so much and just thank you for being on MSP Mindset. Yeah, I appreciate it. It was a great interview.