Your MSP's Hiring Process is Everything

[00:00:00] You know, really spend the time to think about how you're vetting and testing candidates because you speak to someone and you get a sense of who they are, but there are things you can see in a test that you'll never see in just a conversation. And that's been pretty huge. This team that I started out with, we became so close that they would give me very honest, very direct feedback. I had a guy literally tell me, you are being way too easy on us as your employees. Like, I appreciate it and I kind of like it, but I get away with murder. Like, you need to be tougher with us.

[00:00:28] Hey guys, Damien Stevens, host of MSP Mindset. Today, I continue my mission to interview 100 of the most interesting MSPs on the planet. And Nick Regali is certainly one of those. I think it's amazing that he's got nearly double the revenue per employee of other MSPs. And what's more interesting is he's able to travel the country in his RV and have offices on both sides of the country and have a team that raves about him.

[00:01:01] If you want to learn about how he'd had to shift his mindset, rebuild this team and his core values in order to make this happen, you're not going to want to miss out on our conversation today. So Nick, thanks for coming back. You are one of very few people that I've enjoyed so much that I wanted to be able to interview further. And I appreciate the opportunity to do so. Tell me about where your business is now and how long it took to get there.

[00:01:31] Sure. Yeah. And thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it. I enjoyed our last session and looking forward to talking with you again. I really started in IT in 2014. So it's been about 10 years. But at that time, it was solo me doing break-fix work, right? Didn't even know what an MSP was at the time. In about 2016, I kind of got clued into the MSP model, started putting clients on a version of MSP contracts.

[00:02:01] I quit my job in 2016. My IT business before was part-time on the side, right? In 2016, I quit my job, went all in full-time. And from 2016 to today, I've been through, started one company, grew it to about 2.2 million, had a business partner there, left that company in 2020, joined another partner in 2021.

[00:02:28] We've grown to about 4.5 million is what I'm expecting us to do this year. So it's been about 10 years, 8 really, on the MSP model. And we still have some of our earliest clients from, like one of my original clients from way back then is still a client today. And my current business partner, he's got clients that have been with him for 20 plus years, some of his earliest clients as well. But yeah, it's been a journey for sure.

[00:02:57] So I want to jump straight into one of the more interesting parts to me about how many employees do you have? Today, we have, I believe, 12, maybe 13. And we've got a contractor that does marketing work for us and a contractor that helps out supporting one client. So yeah, we are very lean, I think is the point you're making there. We always have been. There's been times we've had a little more, a little less.

[00:03:25] The size we're at today, I feel like we're super capable with the team that we have. And, you know, we have to add a tech here and there depending on ebbs and flows of growth. But yeah, we keep it super lean. And the key, I think, to that is having a really good culture and really good established core values, hiring people that fit those, speaking to those all the time. And ours are so clearly defined.

[00:03:55] We have them up on the walls in our offices. We talk about them on every team call. We ask for people to share examples of their colleagues showing those core values. So we hire to that. We train to that. We hold people accountable to those. And we ultimately fire based on core values as well, right? That has been really, really key, getting that super dialed in and then rebuilding our team around those core values to allow us to be really effective even as a smaller group.

[00:04:24] Yeah, it's definitely been a journey to get there. But I feel like we're able to do a lot with a really lean team. And the nice thing for clients is there's not a lot of turnover. There's not a lot of new faces all the time. Yeah, people come and go. That's natural, right? But I have this guy every single time I talk to him, one of my clients, every time he says, man, I have to tell you every time I talk to you how much I love your team because my last MSP, it was not this way. I didn't know anyone. It was always someone new.

[00:04:53] They didn't know anything about us. Every time I talk to you guys, I'm just reminded how much I appreciate the great people you have and that they're the same people every time I talk to you. You know, he's been a client for a year and he still tells me every time we speak, which is pretty cool. Which one of these is true for your MSP? Testing and verifying backups takes too much time, labor and or guesswork. That's exactly what Mike, CEO of an MSP, just like you, used to deal with until he found Servocity.

[00:05:22] When I found out, you know, about the Servocity solution and the amount of time, honestly, that it saves us, it really has made a difference. You know, because now my guys spend a tenth of the time and the backups we know are verified, they're immutable and they're faster to, you know, for recovery when we have to do it.

[00:05:48] So join Mike and the hundreds of other MSPs who've decided to sleep better at night via proven and tested backups. Book a time. One of my expert backup engineers will walk you through our entire process and give it to you for free. No commitment necessary, but book a time while they're still available. So a lot of MSPs struggle to get 200,000 per FTE. You're approaching, you know, not quite, but nearly 400,000 per FTE.

[00:06:19] How, what do you attribute that to? Well, I would say part of it is also something that we have to grow out of, which is that myself and the other owner are still doing a lot of account management. We don't have a dedicated account management role today. Those are hires at some point we need to make, right? That'll bring that number down. And again, I think it's just having really good people. I mean, we're not, we're not looking over their shoulder and even micromanaging their work.

[00:06:51] Our utilization targets 75 to 80%. The guys are, you know, there's some guys that are hitting 100% consistently. We're not trying to burn them out, but they just like what they do and they're working hard, right? But we're looking for 75 to 80%. They hit those numbers. Everybody's happy. Nobody should feel burnt out, right? And we're not looking over their shoulders. We're not micromanaging. I think we've just created a good culture where people can do really good work.

[00:07:18] And we also give them a lot of work-life balance. And so people show up ready to put in good effort every day. I would say most days people are really excited to be there. Most people in most days are excited to be there. They're happy to do the work they're doing. And so I think we've just created this culture where people can do their best work. And so they're just very effective, very efficient. We focus a lot on efficiency, getting the right work to the right people at the right time.

[00:07:47] I think another thing that helps a lot, and again, this may be something that we have to change as we grow, but we don't give everything to an L1 who has to try everything they can and then escalate to an L2, who has to try everything they can and then escalate to an L3. We're assigning the work to the person who is qualified, capable to do it on the first try. And it's ultimately really efficient. We don't always get that right. Sometimes they still have to escalate, right?

[00:08:13] But I think we're just really efficient in that way by trying to make sure that we're giving the right person the right work at the right time. And so, yeah, we can probably do a lot with a smaller team by finding those efficiencies, and that's been a big focus for us. That's awesome. And where is that team? Are they all in one office, so work remote or hybrid? So we have an office in L.A. in the Westwood area, and we've got an office in New Jersey outside of New York City, northern New Jersey.

[00:08:42] We're about half and half in those two offices in person. We've got a couple of remote folks, someone in Texas, someone in Arizona. One of our more senior engineers is in Arizona. But most of our staff is in an office in L.A. and New Jersey. As a smaller organization, we kind of have to have people in office to receive equipment and take equipment out to clients if we're doing network installs or shipping out computers for new users.

[00:09:10] And so we've got a good crew in each office and just a couple of remote folks. We've had more remote folks over the years, and it was a struggle, mainly because we needed more hands in office to just do things that are really hard to do. Remotely. And it ended up just kind of dumping all that work on one person in either place, right? And that became really challenging.

[00:09:38] And also, at the time, we didn't have as good culture that we do. Our core values weren't as clearly defined. We weren't managing as well to that. And so the team we had when a lot of people were remote was a lot less efficient and productive and effective than they are today. So, yeah, that's kind of the makeup of our team now. And you let out that you got L.A. team, you got a New Jersey team.

[00:10:05] And then tell us a little – we were talking backstage a little bit about what you're doing now in your seasonal life with the mobility there. Yeah. So I've been born and raised in L.A., lived there my whole life, but never really felt at home there. Always wanted to find a new place to live but didn't know where to go. So I decided to just start traveling to different places and spending anywhere from a couple weeks to a month or two in different cities, different states. So I got a fifth-wheel RV.

[00:10:34] And over the last year, I've been living in it, cruising around the country. Did a big tour of the southeast. Just finished a tour of the northwest. So I've probably seen 12 to 15 states spend anywhere from a couple weeks to a month or two in cities that I might be interested in. And I've been doing it all off of Starlink and a PepLink router that's doing load balancing, Starlink and T-Mobile. And for the most part, it's been pretty great.

[00:11:03] There's been a lot of lessons learned about living in an RV, traveling in an RV, being on the road. And I've learned a lot. It's like drinking from a fire hose the first few months for sure. I'd never really used RVs in my life before. So I just dove in. I have a couple great friends who also own MSPs that have been RVing for years. So they helped me out with the basics and kind of got me going.

[00:11:31] But I'm always fixing something or solving some new problem that comes up. Because you're rolling this thing down the road. It's like an earthquake is happening inside your house every time you drive it, right? So there's always something that's falling apart or breaking or not working the way it should. So I'm always fixing things. But it's been quite a journey. Ultimately, really fell in love with North Carolina, the Asheville area specifically. But I want to explore more in North Carolina.

[00:11:58] So in the spring, I spent last year some time there in the winter or earlier this year, I guess, in the winter going into spring. I'm going to go there in the spring and spend spring, summer, and fall in North Carolina just to really explore, see what city kind of resonates the most. And it's been quite the journey. I try to get back to L.A. when I can. And I spent about two months there in the summer just to see clients, see the team, see family, things like that. Took a little break in between two of my big trips.

[00:12:29] So I'm going to get back there pretty soon and spend a little time with the team there. But it's been, yeah, it's been an adventure for sure. I love that. Yeah, and Asheville is beautiful. It's just minutes from where I am in Greenville, South Carolina. And so there's so many parts of the North Carolina and the foothills. So beautiful, beautiful area.

[00:12:51] What I kind of want to unpack there is I think very few of us have figured out how to create a business that works well with a team on both coasts. A team that's also got some remote folks, like you mentioned Texas. And what seems like the freedom, and I don't want to paint the picture that you're not working, but the freedom, right, to not always be attached to the desk at the office and that sort of thing.

[00:13:20] And so how have you set out to do that with intention and how has that enabled you to do this? Yeah, before I left, I thought about this a lot. And I talked with my team about this a lot because for years I was the first one there, the last one to leave. I was running the LA office. My business partner, he kind of oversees the New Jersey office, right? And, you know, I was definitely a little hesitant, a little nervous about it.

[00:13:49] But I got to a point and I kept telling myself when I feel like I've got a core team or even a core member of my team in LA that I trust enough to leave things in their hands, that's when I can start, you know, traveling a little bit and figuring out where I might want to live. But so I've got a couple of guys that now have been here a year and a half to two years, maybe a little over two years, one of them.

[00:14:15] And one is he's doing a lot of the hands-on day-to-day stuff that needs to get done, like bringing in client equipment, receiving deliveries, things like that, shipping out computers to clients. So we do onboards and offboards all around the country and in some cases even internationally. So we have a lot of equipment coming and going through our doors every day. So he's doing a lot of that stuff and has been for a couple years at this point. And he's just – he's one of my rocks. He's very dependable. He's super solid.

[00:14:44] You ask him to do something, you never have to think about it again. It will get done. And if he's got a problem, he'll come to you, right? That's the kind of person that I love having on my team. And then I've got another guy who started off as actually basically an entry-level tech. We met him at one of our clients. He was working in a non-technical job, but he'd always been a tinkerer and he liked playing with technology. And we were looking for someone at the time.

[00:15:13] And a manager at this client said, hey, I've got this guy who works for me. I'd hate to lose him. He's amazing. But he's really passionate and wants to get a job in IT. And I think you should talk to him. So I meet with him and I can immediately tell this guy's super sharp. He's also super hungry. And he had this kind of wrong notion that – or at least I believe it's wrong.

[00:15:36] He thought that he needed to have a degree in IT and have gone to school for it and have a background in it. And I've never really cared too much about degrees. I'm looking for people that have a passion, who can learn, who want to learn and are hungry for knowledge. And that was this guy. So I brought him on as basically an entry-level tech. He kind of trained under one of our senior guys for a while who took him under his wing and he just blossomed.

[00:16:05] He learned so much so fast. And now he's like me. He's the first at the office, the last to leave. And when I started giving him a lot more responsibility and we ultimately promoted him to our service manager and the senior tech who was training him is our lead tech now. So these guys we put a lot of trust in. Ultimately, as I started giving him more responsibility, I started feeling similar to my other employee in the LA office there, Riaz.

[00:16:32] Tom, I really feel like I have a guy that I fully trust to make decisions on my behalf, to talk to clients the way I would talk to clients, to resolve situations in a way that's effective and is good for us and good for the client organization. And he's just super dependable, right? So I started seeing that I finally had this team. And I talked to them about the idea.

[00:16:59] And Tom was happy to kind of run point in our LA office. And ultimately now he runs point on our service team. And all the techs are reporting to him. It really just having those great guys who are super dependable that I can trust, that I know make good decisions. And yeah, of course, they got to run some things by me. But having a team like that there in LA is what gave me the confidence to not need to be there myself all the time.

[00:17:26] And now we've got a couple of other techs we've recruited who are learning and growing. And we're starting to send them out into the field. And they're starting to meet clients. And we're building a really great team there. So it's been a labor of love just building this great team in that office. And it kind of applies in both. When we have a good core group in either office, it allows myself. I mean, I traveled a lot before. Not as much as this. My business partner, Brandon, he travels a lot as well.

[00:17:55] We were doing peer group travel every quarter for a while. Now we still try to get together quite a bit. And that's what really enables us to do that is having just a great group of people in each office that we trust, we know is dependable and they're going to do good work even when we're not there. And when nobody's around, nobody's looking over their shoulder, we trust that they're going to still do great work and take care of things for us. Right. So that's really what allowed it. And it's been such a blessing. It's been so great.

[00:18:24] How do I get that? The recruiting process? Core values? Something else? We actually redid our entire hiring process recently. And first, we redefined our core values. And I know you're kind of joking somewhat, but I will say one of the things we did that's been huge is

[00:18:45] I looked everywhere far and wide for a platform that I could use to test MSP employees during the screening process. To test them technically. And I couldn't find anything that was really targeted at MSPs. It was, I think if you find technical testing online, it's very vocabulary driven. It's very granular, like nitty gritty details about one specific area. It's not.

[00:19:13] But as MSPs, we have to have breadth, a lot more breadth than depth, right? So I tried a bunch of different testing platforms, took the test myself, had techs try them out, and just found none of them, they would either go way too deep or not broad enough or into areas that don't really apply. So I went and found a testing platform where you can design your own tests and just wrote our own custom technical assessments specific to MSP work. So we've now got about five segments in there.

[00:19:43] One is for 365. One is for Azure because we do a lot of Azure virtual desktop and a lot of infrastructure on Azure. One is for general help desk. One is for networking. So, you know, these types of things are topical. It's timed. It makes sure that they're staying in the screen and not cheating and everything. So it's a great platform. It has a few essay questions as well. So we can just see how they would respond. They're not long or anything, but how they would respond in writing to a question. That has been huge.

[00:20:14] We can benchmark a candidate against successful candidates from the past, right? So I know how this guy scored. I know how another guy scored. And I might go into this interview thinking this guy's applying for a level three role. His resume says he's level three capable, but he takes a test and he's really only testing at level two, maybe even level one. Or vice versa. We might be hiring a level two and they test in at level three.

[00:20:43] Um, it's just given us a lot of really good insight into people. Technically, we already were doing personality assessments. Um, and I've kind of paired those up and our hiring process starts with basically a culture and kind of personality fit. It's just a 30 minute call with me. We, we don't talk a lot about technical stuff, just kind of get to know each other a little bit. If I think there's someone that our clients would enjoy speaking with, that our team would enjoy speaking with, that our team would like to have dinner with, you know, that kind of thing.

[00:21:13] Then we'll bring them in for a technical interview. Technical interview. If, um, if they pass our technical interview and our team thinks they're worth putting through testing, we do the technical assessment, the personality assessment. And then we take that whole body of work, uh, the interviews plus the results. And we really evaluate if they're a good fit for our organization. And we do not deviate from that process anymore.

[00:21:37] Uh, no matter where a candidate came from, whether it was a referral, not a referral, uh, whether they're just a candidate from Indeed or LinkedIn or wherever. Um, we stick to that process because it works. We have hired great people that fit our organization generally that, um, that tend to stay for a really long time with some exceptions. And, uh, it, it's been reworking that has been huge. I mean, we're, we're now really getting what I believe are the right people on our team.

[00:22:06] And before it was a lot more hit and miss. Um, so I, I do think that there is a lot to that. And, you know, I, I would recommend that to anyone, you know, really spend the time. Spend the time to think about how you're vetting and testing candidates because you speak to someone and, um, you get a sense of who they are. But there are things you can see in a test that you'll never see, um, in just a conversation. And that's been pretty huge. Um, it, I wouldn't say it necessarily helps us hire the right people.

[00:22:36] It helps us avoid hiring the wrong people. And so we've been more successful getting the right people, I think, through that process. So that has been a big initiative that we've worked on that seems to be doing really well. And now we stick to that very, um, very rigidly because it's been a game changer for us. Does that mean you pay less attention to the traditional resume? I know you mentioned you kind of don't look for four-year degrees. You don't look for the, maybe the certain cert.

[00:23:04] Um, so I'm curious, is there another part of your process that is unconventional? Yeah. I mean, if we're hiring a level two or a level three, I'm really looking for someone with MSP background, MSP experience. Um, most times I've hired someone from any other industry. They've had a hard time adjusting to working in an MSP. And we all know that's a, that can be a challenge. So we're mostly, I'm just looking for people with MSP experience.

[00:23:32] At the lower levels, I'm looking for, like if I was going to hire an intern or a level one with, you know, very little experience, I'm looking for someone who just, their resume clearly speaks to their passion for IT. Um, I mean, the college degree doesn't mean a whole lot.

[00:23:48] I've, I've taken some of those classes myself and I will say I learned more in three months working in an MSP than I would have learned in, you know, years of, of schooling, uh, in a traditional classroom. Now, of course, that's just my experience, but it's never really seemed like something that, uh, made any candidate better than another, just having a college degree. So we don't really look for that. Um, we're just looking for, uh, passion.

[00:24:16] And then at higher levels, of course, they need to have relevant experience, which is really what we believe is where people gain the knowledge they need. Right. Um, so yeah, I, I don't look at, and, and certifications, they're nice. They help us, you know, um, qualify for programs with vendors and things. But a lot of that stuff is just, you got to do it to have it, but you're not really doing anything hands-on in that process. Right. So it's vocabulary and, you know, some people get some really good value out of those.

[00:24:44] Some people don't, but those are not as important to me at all. So you explained some of your process. What are the tools that you like to use to build your own test, technical test or to personality tests? Yeah. The one we're using right now for the technical testing is a tool called Test Gorilla. And it's, um, it's not perfect by any means. Uh, I tried a few different platforms and this one just worked the best for us. Um, we're, we're not spending a huge amount of money on it.

[00:25:14] Uh, I think it's very reasonably priced and, uh, took us a good month to build out these tests. Uh, we tested them with some internal candidates first or internal employees first. I took the, I wrote the test, so it wasn't really fair for me to take them. So I had a few techs, uh, take them. They then gave me feedback. Hey, here's some other questions we'd like to see in there. Maybe let's reward this because it can be confusing, things like that.

[00:25:39] Um, and then we started using them on candidates and now we've got a pretty good bank of results and we can look back and say, Hey, we see how these three or four candidates that worked out to be really good employees, how they tested. We see how some of our current employees tested and we can really benchmark people against each other. Right. Um, and we, you know, obviously we take all the results with a grain of salt. It's not like a specific score you have to hit. Um, we're looking at what did they get right? What did they get wrong?

[00:26:08] What, what areas? The other thing it's been great for, um, what areas did they score poorly and that we can just coach them up on. Right. Um, and that's been another big benefit is, uh, someone scores well enough that we think they're, they're strong enough technically to do the job, but they have kind of a gap. Maybe it's networking or it's Azure. Uh, then when we make that higher, we know let's spend some time, uh, training that person up in that area. Right. So it's been a great tool from that perspective as well.

[00:26:37] So yeah, we're using a platform called test gorilla for that. It's been great. Um, for personality profile, I think there's a lot of really good ones out there. The one we're using right now is called high match. It used to be called Burke. Um, but it's very similar to any other personality profile platform on the market. Um, it looks at how people think and process information and, um, how, uh, how strong they are critical thinking, fast problem solving.

[00:27:07] And you can kind of see clues into their personality through the test. Right. So again, we take it all with a grain of salt, but there, those results are really helpful to kind of marry to the technical results in the interview, um, uh, notes and things we take from the interviews. It just gives us a lot of information about a candidate to really make a good choice. We all know it costs a lot of money to hire the wrong person, train them up for two months, realize they're never going to be what you need. Let them go start all over. Right.

[00:27:37] Um, so we just wanted to, to make sure that that happened as infrequently as possible. And these are some of the tools and methods we've been using that seem to be working really well. And you talk about culture a lot and you mentioned core values. Is that something you didn't have until recently or you realized you needed to revisit? So we've always had, I wouldn't say always, um, we had some established core values,

[00:28:04] but they weren't the right ones because, um, we were hiring to those and we didn't have the right people. We were managing to those and we weren't getting the results we wanted. So we really had to go back and do an exercise and figure out the people that work well in our organization. What is it about them? We love, right? The people that don't work well in our organization, where is it that they're missing the mark?

[00:28:29] And our core values evolved from, um, the original version to something that we spent a lot of time on and really made sure, uh, were the ones that mattered the most. And, um, after we did that, we went and started evaluating all of our, our current team members against the new core values, um, and realize like, Hey, this is why we've been struggling

[00:28:55] with this person is because they're not really fitting into what it is we want from them in this area. Um, and so the, they were always there, but they weren't the right ones. We didn't, we didn't really get to the heart of what we were trying to achieve with them. So we had to give them a good look. We took another try at it and we spent probably five to seven sessions hours long where we

[00:29:24] thought, Hey, these are right, but this one just doesn't feel good. This one isn't quite what we're trying to convey. And we had to go back and forth a lot until we all looked at them and agreed like, yeah, this is it. This is, these are the values that are really important. These are the values that really speak to what we've been trying to communicate to ourselves and do our team. And since then it's been pretty transformational for us, for sure. Is there any recommend, since you just went through that, or do you have a recommendation on how to, how to achieve that outcome?

[00:29:54] Oh, I feel like it's easy to come up with 25 core values or something like that. I mean, I think the way that we went about it was really effective where we looked at, we even talked about former employees, all the people that have worked for us over the years that we just felt like this person was someone who embodied the kind of people we want to work here. Right. We wrote those people down on a list and we wrote down attributes about those people.

[00:30:24] What was it about that person that was really, uh, that really jumped out. Right. And for example, one of our core values is be dependable. And I, I've touched on dependability earlier with the guys in my LA office. Um, I had this guy who was with me for years. He started his career with me. He moved on, uh, got a great opportunity. He's, he's doing great things now. And I, I still talk to him all the time. Um, he was on my list of people that were just amazing employees.

[00:30:50] And when I think about him, I think about how dependable he was, no matter what I asked of him, I knew he would do it with consistency. Uh, he would do it the right way. He wouldn't cut corners. And so that was where one of those ideas came from. Right. Um, for our core values is just by evaluating this person. And then we start looking at another person. What was it about this person? We really loved what was the big thing that made them work really well in our organization. Right.

[00:31:18] Um, that's the approach we took and it was really effective, but it was hard. I mean, it was hard for us all to get aligned as a team and agree that these are the core components that really make the most sense. And then figuring out how to communicate them really clearly as well. Um, we didn't want this thing to be 20 pages long, right? It needs to be very short and sweet and to the point. And we were able to achieve that, but it was, yeah, that was the method we used, but it

[00:31:46] was, it was definitely a challenge getting to the final version. But I, every time I look at it, I think we nailed it. Dependability is huge. Um, what, what are the things other than culture that you did that allow you the autonomy and freedom and more importantly, allow them the freedom and autonomy to do their job and understand what you or your partner would expect as you guys are, you know, whether it's traveling

[00:32:13] to a customer or traveling to a, you know, quarterly peer group or just traveling. Um, I'm curious, it seems like you've had a good bit of growth. You've had, um, the freedom to do these things, which to me means you really empowered them. How did you end up doing that? Um, I think a big part of that is to start by trusting people unless they prove to you that they can't be trusted rather than the opposite.

[00:32:39] You know, a lot of us struggle with, and I can say myself, I used to struggle with delegating, handing off work. Um, and, uh, a big lesson that I've learned is I was a perfectionist. Um, I always wanted everything to be done, uh, as, as close to perfect as possible. Right. I, I had to really work on that within myself. Um, and once I was no longer striving for perfection, I also wasn't expecting perfection

[00:33:09] from anyone else. And that was huge. Um, and a lot of people, I think, um, struggle with that and also struggle with just trusting people to, to do the right thing, even when you're not looking right. Um, I like to start with that trust and assume that we've, that our hiring process has given us the right person, that our training process has given them the tools that they need, that our coaching process has given them the, the, the support that they need. Right.

[00:33:39] So now I'm going to trust, I'm going to trust in not just the person, but those elements. And unless they prove to me, they can't be trusted. I'm just going to trust that they're going to do good work and that they'll let me know if there's something they need from me. Right. Um, I think that is a, a key element to having more freedom in the business. Um, we always tell people when they first start, if you, um, if you make a decision in a situation

[00:34:07] and you, you have to make a decision on your own in the heat of the moment and your decision was what is best for the client, we're never going to have an issue with the decision you made. It may not have been the right one. It may not have been the right way you did something, but if your intention was, let me help our client and give them the best service I can in this situation, in this moment, um, then that should be sort of your, your guiding principle. Right. And we tell people that within their first couple of days of starting.

[00:34:36] Um, and then we try to continue to preach that through the way that we, um, the, the way that we praise people through the way that we talk about challenges and problems in the organization, did you do the right thing in the moment for the client? If so, all right, uh, we appreciate that. Let's go figure out how to fix the mess that maybe came because of it. Right. Maybe someone broke something. Um, they were doing their best to help the client and caused another issue. Right. Okay. Let's go solve the problem, but great job. You did the right thing.

[00:35:07] You did the thing the client needed in that moment. Right. And I think giving people that guiding principle helps a lot and then trusting them to, to adhere to it. Um, but I can definitely say a big part is me not being a perfectionist anymore. Um, and not even letting myself think that way. Uh, and that was a big shift for me. It took, took a lot of years to realize that, um, perfect is really the enemy of good is a

[00:35:34] saying that some people, uh, use is true. Uh, actually my business partner, Brandon, he's kind of the opposite of me. His approach is let's get something out there and we can improve it over time. Right. My approach was always, let's get it perfect and then deliver it. And so, um, kind of marrying the two and finding a sweet spot has been great for me. Um, and the crazy thing about it is nobody noticed. I was the only one who was stuck in the weeds trying to make it perfect.

[00:36:02] Now I deliver what I would call good and not perfect. And people are just as happy with it. And it was like, whoa, I can actually get way more done now. Cause I don't have to spend so much time making it perfect. That's, that is one of the biggest lessons I've learned. You know, I know that's not MSP specific. That's just business and, you know, and, and even my own personality. It's one of the biggest lessons I've learned is to really not let perfection get in the way of progress.

[00:36:29] And, um, I, I attribute a lot of that to my business partner, to Brandon, um, helping me, uh, combat that and, and improve in that area and giving me some patience as well. Um, as I was growing in that area. And, um, it's been a, a huge life changing thing for me. I can get a lot more done in a work day so I don't have to work as many hours. I don't have to struggle as much, you know, um, just, and it's a simple mindset shift is

[00:36:58] all it is because at the end of the day, the clients didn't notice my team didn't notice. Nobody knows any different because to them it looks perfect, right? It's me who's noticing, um, or maybe not perfect, but good enough. And they're very happy with it. And they're glad I, they got it quickly. So that's been a huge lesson for me. Um, uh, and I know we got a little bit off track there, but, um, yeah, I think it's just trusting my people, trusting my people, giving them good guiding principles and trusting our

[00:37:24] process, um, uh, is given us a lot of that freedom for sure. What, what other, I guess, way have you had to level up and, you know, upgrade your mindset and become that next level leader? In so many ways. Um, I started this business when I was 24 years old with no real business experience. It's like the peak of knowing things. Oh yeah. Right? 24.

[00:37:52] We know everything at 24, right? Um, man, it's like, it's, I think everyone who's got the, the, I guess the word is the, the oomph, the, uh, the grit to, to, to go through an entrepreneurial journey should try it at some point. Because if you've got the grit to do it, you will learn so much about yourself. You will grow so much if you want to be successful.

[00:38:21] There was a couple of years period when I read, uh, in two years, like somewhere between 50 and 60 books. These were self-development, uh, business, uh, autobiographies, trying to learn how to be a better leader, uh, how to think about finances, how to think about operations. Um, and, and I was doing a lot of, a lot of, uh, kind of like self-therapy, self-reflection,

[00:38:50] thinking about, uh, where did I go wrong? How did I offend someone? How did I screw up? Trying to get down to the core of what that issue was and just working on one thing at a time. And man, for, for a couple of years, it was like never ending. There was always a thing, you know, always something huge that I needed to be working on. Um, and I, I had such a good, when I started out, I had built this great team, um, that,

[00:39:18] uh, most of which are not with us anymore just because we've evolved and a lot of them have evolved as well. But this team that I started out with, we became so close that they would give me very honest, very direct feedback. I had a guy literally tell me, you are being way too easy on us as your employees. Like he, I appreciate it and I kind of like it, but I get away with murder. Like you need to be tougher with us. And that was always one of my issues. Like I'm, I'm, I'm a bit soft. And he said like, you give me this rope, I'm going to take it.

[00:39:48] So I know that's, I know that's not what you want. So you really need to start being tougher on, on us and especially on me. And I had to dig deep and really figure out how to balance, like, for example, um, being friends with your employees and also being their leader and their boss and trying to find that balance there where you can still be friends with them and be friendly with them and have a great time out of the office doing things and still hold them accountable and

[00:40:17] still have difficult conversations. I mean, that was a big learning experience for me, but I had a great crew early on that were, that were happy to point out my flaws, which I appreciated. And I asked for regularly. And, um, and I was just always working on something and I've had to level up in so many ways, how to be a better leader, how to be, um, better operationally, more mature operationally. And, and the hardest part there is just, you know, what you need to do.

[00:40:48] A lot of us know the things that need to happen and we're just not doing them. We're just not getting it done. We're making excuses. And one of the things I did for a long time was that one thing that I was putting off that I was putting off that I was putting off. I would just make it the first thing I would do on Monday morning each week. Because once I got past that thing that I'd been dreading and it was never as bad as I thought it was going to be. I felt like, man, the rest of the week is going to be easy. I'm going to get so much done. And so, you know, that was another lesson.

[00:41:17] It was, it was like, why keep putting things off? Keep putting things off. You got to do it at some point, pick the hardest thing, knock it out, get it done first thing on Monday morning. And the rest of your week's going to feel like a breeze. Right. Um, so yeah, I've had to level up in a lot of ways. I could probably talk about that alone for hours. I've done a lot of self-therapy. I've done actual therapy, um, and, and learned a lot about who I am. Uh, what motivates me, what I'm passionate about.

[00:41:43] Um, and, and, you know, there's been plenty of times I've talked about my employees in therapy. Like I had this situation or I'm struggling with this thing. How do I navigate this with, you know, my, my humanity and my care for that person as a human. Um, and also having to, you know, maybe have a difficult conversation with them or even fire someone. Um, so yeah, it's, it's, it's been a journey.

[00:42:07] Um, and, and I could go on and on about personal growth for probably hours if, if you wanted to, but I know you don't have that much time. Yeah, I appreciate that. Um, I appreciate also that you shared openly about, you know, personal, not only personal development, but reflection kind of therapy within yourself and then actual therapy. I think a lot of people think that that's a negative or maybe others think that because

[00:42:37] you're a leader, you have things figured out. Um, which if, if, if you're a leader, you know, that's generally not the case, uh, or not as much as you'd like to have figured out. Um, are there any of those that you felt like were breakthrough moments or that you, you point to and say that's, that was a huge unlock? Um, yeah, I'm pretty open by the way about going to therapy. It's, it's used to have a lot more stigma to it.

[00:43:05] I think a lot more people are accepting of that. Um, it's been huge for me, uh, personally. Just being able to speak with someone that I believe truly cares about me, but is completely objective, um, just to help me figure out, um, how to really process something and, and also to help me figure out how to identify my own values and then apply those to situations. Right.

[00:43:32] I think that that is, that for sure was a game changer for me getting into therapy. I put it off for way too many years. Um, and it's, it's, it's a great tool. I'm not in it as often anymore. I had already done a lot of work on my own and then worked with my therapist quite a bit for a period of time. Now we see each other from time to time or when I'm really struggling with something. Um, I think, um, I think I, you know, we talk a lot about identifying core values in the business.

[00:44:00] I think identifying your own core values is really key too. Um, I spent time doing that in my own personal life before I ever, um, uh, thought about it in the business. Um, and they've evolved a little bit over the years, just like they did in the MSP. But the core values that I believe are, are, um, are mine are things that I try to make all my decisions, um, by. And I try to look at everything through the lens of those core values, right?

[00:44:30] I think that's huge. We talk about it in business. Why, why not figure out what your personal ones are and apply those in your life? Um, that's been huge for me. Um, reading has been a big part of my growth journey. There's so much good information out there, whether it's on audible or physical, you know, paper books, so much good information out there. Why go and make all the same mistakes other people have made when you can learn from them, right? It's kind of like a life hack.

[00:44:58] It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a way to cheat and skirt problems and, and you're still going to make mistakes. You're still going to fall into some of those same traps. But, uh, just consuming that information gives you a leg up, right? So I read a lot of books for a lot of years. Recently, I've been reading a lot more kind of just for fun, sci-fi and stuff. I needed a little break from all the business books and, and the self-development type books. Um, but that, that was huge.

[00:45:25] There was a few year period where I, I just watched myself grow so much just because I was reading so much and really being introspective. Um, and, and yeah, getting into therapy has been really key as well. Being able to have a safe place to just talk about struggles and, and things that I'm working through, uh, has been huge. So I would say those are three really important things. Figure out your core values as an individual and apply those in your life and at work and how you treat employees and colleagues and whatever else.

[00:45:55] Um, read books that are really relevant to what you want to learn and where you want to grow. And, um, if you, if you need to have that objective person in your life that you can speak with, who's trained in how the brain works, um, go to therapy, huge, huge fan of therapy and will recommend it to anyone who's open to it. We all need a little bit of that, a little bit of therapy. You talked about, you know, whether it's therapy, whether it's reading, whether it's

[00:46:24] your core values. Uh, and it sounds like you've really, from my perspective, figured out how to show up as your authentic self. Uh, what advice do you have for those so that you can show up as who you are and not who you think you should be? Yeah. And actually one of my core tenets of my core values is to be authentic. Um, I think the key thing to being authentic is actually loving who you are, loving yourself.

[00:46:52] And until you love who you are as a person, you're never going to be fully authentic because there are things about yourself that you hate or don't like, or that you feel is a problem or whatever it might be. And you're going to try and minimize those things, hide those things. You're going to try and present yourself in such a way that maybe no one will see those things, right? Um, once you really figure out how to love yourself fully and love who you are as a person

[00:47:21] and know that the person you are is the person you want to be, then it's really easy to be authentic. Um, and I think a lot of us care too much about what other people think. Um, that's part of being human. That is just part of being human, right? There's no getting around it. Um, but when you love who you are and you believe that you are the person that you are supposed to be, um, it's a lot easier to not care as much what people think because

[00:47:48] if someone doesn't agree with your approach to life, that's okay. I agree with it and that's what matters so much more, right? Um, so I think, uh, I think it really comes down to, to becoming the person that you want to be, which is hard work by the way, and then loving that person. Once you do that, it's so easy to be authentic in everything you do. How do you, any advice? Because I think it's, it's easy to say, let me figure out who I am.

[00:48:17] And it's maybe hard to do, but easy to say. And then I think it's a different thing to say, how do I show up for my team? How do I show up for my clients and actually be who I am instead of just, uh, you know, like on our website, everything looks perfect. It's all tidy. Uh, or maybe on LinkedIn or wherever, you know, we, we want to have this often. I feel like there's this corporate me and then there's the individual me.

[00:48:44] And, uh, and, and I know that, you know, maybe they don't want to, to know everything, but I'm kind of curious, how do you balance this? Um, I, I think that at work, I'm, I'm mostly just me. I don't have a corporate me. I mean, the, the branding and the marketing for the company, there's some versions of that that are a little more, um, professionally written in things, but I try to just show up at work the same way I do in life.

[00:49:11] Um, uh, with clients, I, I also would say when I'm speaking with a client, I speak to them the same way I'm speaking to you now. Um, I swear a little bit and I, I allow myself to do that in meetings with them. It's who I am. Um, I, I am very direct and very genuine with people. If there's something I think that they're screwing up on, if there's a big problem in their business that they need to address, I'm just going to bring it up and talk to them about it.

[00:49:41] Even if it's a hard conversation to have. And ultimately the clients that like someone who will be really honest with them and be very genuine and authentic. Um, even if it isn't quite as professional, let's say those are the clients that work really well with. We can be a super effective team. Um, they'll be the same level of honest with me when we screw up and, and I'll take accountability. I try to always make sure to take accountability. Yep. You know what? You're right.

[00:50:09] We screwed up and we're going to do better next time. Let me come back to you when I've got a plan for that. Right. But I also will push clients in the same way sometimes. Um, Hey, you guys screwed this up. We need to figure out how to address that. And I think, um, I think when you have the right clients who like, uh, for me, a big thing, a, a big, a big part of enjoying my work is having the right clients that like my approach.

[00:50:38] And I try to find clients that like the approach I take because some won't and that's okay. We're not going to be a good fit. Um, and I like working with people like that too, are very genuine, very authentic, very direct, uh, are going to be very honest and not, let's not have this corporate professional facade. Let's just talk as people, business leaders, business owners, and just cut through the BS and cut through that stuff. And let's just talk. And, uh, those kinds of relationships I do really well in.

[00:51:07] Um, I find those partnerships to be really, really effective when I have a client that works that same way and appreciates that. Um, so I would say mostly I'm the same way with clients. Um, yeah, I'm a little more professional. Uh, of course, when I'm dealing, especially with a newer client who I'm not, you know, they don't know me as well yet. I don't know them as well yet. We're still kind of getting to know each other a bit, but once I've figured them out and they've figured me out and we've been working together a while, um, that there's no facade. You just, you get what you get.

[00:51:37] If you don't like it, maybe let's not work together. And, um, I, I would say I'm very largely the same way with my team. Um, obviously there's a certain amount of friendship you can have with, with an employee. Um, there's a line between friendship and colleague and, and someone who reports to you, right? Um, but I still try to treat them the same way I would with care and love and heart as I would any other person.

[00:52:03] Um, and in a lot of ways we do things for people on our team when they're in need or struggling or hurting. We do things for them that a lot of companies wouldn't do, and it may even not be appropriate to do, but we don't care. There are people that matter to us. So we, we help where we can. I love that. And so far, nobody's taken advantage of that. That's amazing. And you're actually walking the walk, not just talking, uh, because we were talking before

[00:52:31] and I think you're going through a season of figuring out the right clients and letting go of the wrong ones. So tell me about that. Yeah. Oh boy. Um, another one of my biggest lessons. I think, uh, when it comes to clients, I want to enjoy the work that I do every day. And we all know that you've got those clients that are just way noisier than any other clients

[00:52:59] and you cringe when they open a ticket. They, you cringe when they call you. Um, we've all either, we have some now, or we've been at a point in our, in our, in our growth when we had some, and I just don't want to work with those anymore. I refuse to work with clients like that. We, we are at a point in our business where we don't need to. Sure. We could retain those and maybe have a little more revenue, maybe be a little bit bigger next year. But the headaches that come along with it are just not worth it.

[00:53:29] Uh, and the pain we have to deal with is just not worth it. I want to show up every day, enjoy the work I do, enjoy the people I work with. And that doesn't just mean my employees, but my clients as well. Right? So I think there's, there's really two big issues when it comes to client relationships. You either have the wrong client, uh, who's just not a good fit for your company or your style. Like I was describing my, my style of working with a client. Right?

[00:53:54] Or you've got maybe a, a good client who's got wrong expectations or you might have wrong expectations of them. And I think there's a lot of situations where you need to evaluate, is it the right client with the wrong expectations? Because that we can just, we can redefine collaboratively with that client. Maybe that even means we change their contract and the way we support them a little bit. That can be repaired. Is it the wrong client with the wrong expectations?

[00:54:24] Cause that's the worst kind of all that is just going to be a mess. That is probably not even repairable. Um, we just need to probably walk away from that situation. Um, and really being honest with yourself about those things. It's tough. Sometimes you have a client who's been around a long time. You've got a long history with them, but they're that client that when they call you cringe, right? They're that client when they put in a ticket, it's like, Oh, not this again.

[00:54:50] Um, you got to really dig deep and figure out, is it the right client? The wrong client? Is it bad expectations? What is it? Um, and in some cases we just realign expectations, um, that can go both ways and we can be really honest with the client about that and we can turn it around and have a great relationship. In other cases, their expectations are just not something we can deliver on. Um, it's not who we are as an organization. So that's not going to work or it could just be the wrong client. They're just not the right people.

[00:55:20] They don't fit who we are. We don't fit who they are and that's okay. Uh, so we, over the years, yeah, we have, we have severed a lot of, uh, relationships and, you know, the thing that's always been beautiful, beautiful about that is every single time I feel like I let a client go because they're not a good fit either for us or where we're at. Um, or we just couldn't get expectations aligned, whatever it is.

[00:55:46] Every time I let one go, there's a great client right around the corner that ends up coming on board and they're a better fit. And it, every time that has happened, it has given me more confidence and more confidence and more confidence, um, to let those challenging ones go. And you breathe a little easier every day. You enjoy your work. Your staff isn't getting harassed and harangued by these people anymore. And they're so appreciative and they now, you know, really appreciate your leadership and handling that.

[00:56:14] Um, and then what do you know? Hey, we just signed a new client who's actually a really good fit and I love working with them. And this freed me up to do that, right? It gave me the space to do that. So that's been really, uh, encouraging every time that's happened. Um, but yeah, we, we've, we've been through that a lot over the years. I would say we're, we don't have a whole lot of that left. We've done most of the, um, most of the work there. Um, I can't say we have any client right now that isn't a good fit for us.

[00:56:43] Um, maybe a little bit of misaligned expectations here and there, but those are conversations we have and those happen. It's natural, you know, here and there we realign and we're all good, but we don't have anybody today that I would say is just not a good fit. Um, we're not holding onto any anymore. And when we're looking at bringing on new business, we're spending a little more time vetting them, uh, getting to know them, trying to figure out what those expectations are. Do they really align with who we are and how we deliver our services? And if they don't, I'm okay to say, we're not the fit for you.

[00:57:12] I know a few great people. Let me just refer you out and maybe one of them will be a better fit, right? Um, and you know, we've got good networks of other MSPs that we've met over the years. So we'll just kind of give them a couple of names if they want them, uh, maybe chat with these guys, um, or these gals and, uh, you know, leave it at that. But, um, if I can see it's not a good fit, I'm just not even going to spend the time early on.

[00:57:37] I want to switch gears and, and, uh, ask you what, what's the biggest lesson learned over all these years? Hmm. I would say for me, the biggest lesson, and we touched on this before is not letting perfection get in the way of progress. Um, that was holding me back in the business and holding back the business in a lot of ways.

[00:58:06] And being able to be comfortable and happy putting out a product or, um, a solution. And this, this isn't just for clients. This is internal work too. Maybe I'm working on a new process for something. Um, launching a version of it tomorrow or in a week that isn't perfect, but is a good start. I have found is way better than getting, trying to get it perfect and launching it in

[00:58:35] three months because that will inevitably become inevitably become four months and then five and then six and then seven. And so on, if we get something out next week, that is like basic, that is the core of what we're trying to do. It's not perfect, but we plan that we're going to continue building and iterating on that. We've just been way more effective and successful getting initiatives done and rolling out change and things like that. So that's been a huge, huge lesson for me.

[00:59:02] I would say that that has been the key, um, lesson I've learned over the years. If you could do one thing over, what would that be? Uh, I got to agree with Greg Browning on this one. Um, I would have joined an MSP peer group years before I did. Um, I didn't even know there was such a thing and I, I was in one for about five or six years. I just pulled out recently to just kind of take a break from that.

[00:59:30] Um, got so much value out of it. Had I gotten into an MSP peer group when I first started my MSP, I can't even imagine where I would be today because the, the first I show, and I think not just joining, but actually going there with a really open mind and wanting to learn from others. I showed up to my first meeting and I said, I'm here to listen. I'm here to learn. I don't know if I can contribute in any meaningful way yet. So I'm just here to learn.

[00:59:59] Um, and, and I really meant that. And that's all I did the first few quarters. Um, my peer group members pointed out some big issues in my business and they said like, you need to go fix this immediately. First quarter that happened. I came back next quarter. I said, okay, I did exactly what you said. And by the way, what they told me was you need to fire some people and you need to sell some stuff because my number, my, I, we were not healthy financially. So I came back next quarter.

[01:00:28] I said, all right, I fired some people and I sold some stuff. What's next. And then every quarter for a while, that was how it went. What's the next big thing, big change I need to make. And early on, there's so much low hanging fruit. There's huge mistakes you're making that you don't even know are problems. Right. And you start to have that open, um, that, that awareness, uh, and it just unlocks so much opportunity for growth in the business. So I would have done that on day one. I would have joined a peer group on day one of starting my MSP.

[01:00:58] And I can't even imagine where I'd be today. I mean, it would be night and day. Um, but that being said, I don't focus on the past and regret anything. I got in when I did, I was in a great group for five or six years, learned so much in that group. Um, and, and I'm still great friends with all those people to this day. Um, and at some point I may join another group. I just need a little break from it, but that would be my one big do over. Uh, I could have avoided so many mistakes. I could have made so much more money.

[01:01:28] I mean, that was, is one of the biggest things that comes from, from being in a peer group is just seeing that, Hey, you actually can run this business and make money. Right. Um, early on, that was such a struggle. Um, but once you see how other people are doing it, it's like, Oh, well it's doable. Let me just figure out how they did it. Right. Or let me just ask them. And that's the beauty of a peer group. So that, that would be my one big do over for sure. Is there a peer group you'd recommend right now?

[01:01:57] Um, I've heard great things about the PAX eight groups. Um, I was in the connect wise evolve community and, uh, I would speak very highly of that, that community. There's a lot of great people in that, uh, in the evolve, uh, family. There's a lot of great facilitators that run the groups and a lot of great companies in there. Um, so connect wise evolve is a great one. Um, PAX eight, I can't remember the name of their peer group, uh, program, but I've heard also really good things about it.

[01:02:25] Um, I've got a few friends in that, uh, peer group system ecosystem as well. And they, they say really good things about it. That's a, that's awesome. Thank you for that. What's a myth about this business that you'd love to debunk? Hmm.

[01:02:42] I think, I think the, the one I'd like to debunk is that you, you can be a profitable company and still invest in growth. A lot of people will say, I've been guilty of this myself and I had to debunk this myth to myself. So now I'm speaking from experience. A lot of people, you'll hear them say, well, we don't have any profits this year because

[01:03:11] we're reinvesting all our money in growth. Um, they probably didn't have enough profits and that's what they need to focus on because you can have healthy profits and be investing in growth. And I think Earl Foote is a good example of that. Um, who was on the podcast recently. Uh, yeah, they're spending a lot of money on growth, but they still have healthy profits and, uh, you don't have to do one at the expense of the other.

[01:03:37] You just have to make sure your profitability is healthy enough to afford, um, spending money on sales and marketing. And if you can't, you need to fix your profitability. I would say that's a, a myth that I debunked for myself and I'd like to debunk for others. Uh, whenever I meet a smaller, younger, um, MSP and, and they tell me that I'm like, hold on a second. No, we, we, we got to reframe this. I love that. Harsh truth. You got to figure out your profit. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:04:07] Um, may not be easy. You may not know what to do, but somebody. It's not easy. Yeah. It's not easy. That's been years of hard work. Um, and, and I would say like in that area, we've, we, we don't fully follow the profit first model. Um, Mike McAuliffe, McAuliffe. I can't remember how to say his last name, but we don't follow the exact model, but we, we try to, um, take the intention of that and focus on, we have a profitability target we have to hit.

[01:04:36] So if we're going to spend money, we got to make sure that we figure out how to do it in a way that lets us still hit our profitability targets. Right. If we can't, then, Hey, maybe we can't make that investment. Maybe we can't spend that money. Maybe we need to cut somewhere else. Right. Right. That's been, you know, um, a big, a big part of our growth in is, is just profitability has to be there and there's no other option. So work backwards from that. Right. Um, and you start to make a lot better decisions when you, when you think that way. I love that.

[01:05:05] What is something you're looking forward to the most? Right now we are looking to do our first acquisition. Um, we want to start doing some growth, uh, inorganically and, uh, I'm just, this is all new for me. I'm learning a lot. I'm, I'm meeting with friends in the industry who've done it, um, getting connected with some great people.

[01:05:33] Um, some that you introduced me to as well, Damien, and I really appreciate that. Uh, and just, you know, hearing what people's experiences have been taking little nuggets of wisdom from them and just kind of collecting all of that right now is really exciting. Uh, at the same time, I'm starting to like look at deals and opportunities and speak with people. And we got as far as the LOI stage on one, one deal that we were pretty excited about ultimately did not, um, did not end up working out.

[01:06:01] Um, and so I'm just learning a lot, uh, super excited to find that right opportunity, make a transaction happen, um, and just also enjoying the journey. Like I'm enjoying learning and, and speaking with all these great people. And, um, I'm going to be going to some events specifically about M&A and, uh, there's some where they, they have, you know, content about M&A and some where they also do kind of mixers and put people in a room that are looking to do transactions.

[01:06:31] So it's been really fun, exciting. Um, looking forward to that whole process. And I love operations and integrating things and, you know, all those pieces. So when we finally find that right fit and we make that transaction happen, I'm excited to, to solve those challenges, right. Um, of which there will be many to go through the process of learning how to integrate, um, another company and another team and a culture and make that all one, right. Um, looking forward to all that.

[01:07:00] That's been very exciting for me. That sounds really fun. What is, uh, what's your top challenge right now? Top constraint? Uh, you know, one of the big challenges we've been having is M&A, uh, and consolidation going on amongst our clients.

[01:07:21] We're seeing so much activity and, you know, sometimes a client will get acquired and nothing will change. They run completely independently. They're just owned by someone else. Other times they'll get acquired and, um, the, the acquiring company has in-house IT or has got a great MSP they work with. And our relationship ultimately goes away with that client. And in other cases, it actually creates work for us.

[01:07:51] Um, maybe there's opportunity for us to work with the acquiring company, but it's been, uh, I would say there's been more cases where we've lost a client to M&A and completely had to walk away because they have their own IT department or their own MSP that they love or whatever it might be. There's been more of those and there have been where there's been opportunities for us. Um, and you know, it's one of those things where it's so, it's so frustrating because you didn't do anything wrong. You didn't lose a client cause you screwed up.

[01:08:20] You didn't lose a client because you're too expensive, which I'm always okay losing on price. You know, that's fine. But if it's just because they got acquired and there was nothing you could have done about it, man, that's the most frustrating. So that's definitely been a challenge. Um, I have this one company I've been doing a lot of work with recently that is one of those, you know, kind of opportunities. They, they acquired one of our clients, um, and we helped them do the integration. And then they said, Hey, we just acquired another. Can you help us with that integration? Hey, we just acquired another. Can you help us with that integration?

[01:08:50] So those opportunities are there and we've been building more and more of a relationship with them, um, and trying to figure out how to, how to look for more of those in those situations, um, and, and make something like that happen and, and not just have to kind of frustratedly walk away from a great account that maybe you had many years of history with. Um, that's been a challenge recently. And I, I know a lot of people I, I talked to are struggling with the same.

[01:09:16] Um, but it also means we need to start investing more in sales and marketing and bringing in new business to replace some lost revenue. Right. So, um, we've, uh, we've kind of been doing a little bit of, uh, a reset recently internally. Um, but now it's time to kick up, uh, sales and marketing to a higher degree and, and focus on bringing in new business, which we hadn't really been focusing on for the last year.

[01:09:42] Um, and so we're, we've, we've got some plans and some things in the works there. Um, but yeah, I would say that's kind of our biggest struggle right now. I appreciate that candor. Uh, I know you have a reader. So what's the one book you would recommend? For me, from a business perspective, it would be the four obsessions of an extraordinary executive by Patrick Lencioni. I mean, anything by Lencioni is great.

[01:10:09] This one, um, I try to read it every year and it just kind of helps me refresh and reset on what's really important. Uh, the four obsessions, just high level it's building and maintaining a cohesive leadership team. The next three are going to sound very similar, create organizational clarity, over communicate organizational clarity and reinforce organizational clarity.

[01:10:39] These are the four obsessions of an extraordinary executive. And I mean, if you think about what those are and what I was talking about with us defining our core values and communicating those and over communicating those and hiring to those and human systems that are reinforcing those, right? That's, that's been huge for me. Um, that's an incredible read, uh, highly recommend. Uh, there was also another book. I mean, one of the beautiful things about reading is sometimes you just get one line from a book

[01:11:07] that is so powerful that the whole, you know, however many hours you spent reading that book, um, is well worth it. Right. And there's one line from one book that I, that I do want to share. Um, the book itself was great, but this is the one that stuck with me. It's a book called switch by chip Heath. The quote is some is not a number and soon is not a time. The idea being, if you're going to set a goal, define what that goal is clearly and put a

[01:11:36] timeline on it. And one of my own like personal growth life hacks that I've done is giving myself timelines that I've communicated to a client because I will not fail them. Um, and if I have to, I will like apologize profusely. So when I need to get something done and I don't want to do it, I give myself an artificial timeline by telling a client I'll have it done by this day, puts pressure on myself to get it done. And that's been kind of a life hack for me.

[01:12:03] That's just how my brain works may not work for others, but that one line, some is not a number and soon is not a time. If you say, Hey, we want to bring on as much new business in 2025 as we can. And that's not a goal. But if you say, I will bring on four new clients in 2025, that's a goal that you can pull apart and break down and figure out how to do it. Right. Um, that one line was huge for me and, and it was a great read switch by Chip Heath. Um, so those are the two that I would mention.

[01:12:32] I love that. I love that. So many lessons to learn and unpack from that. Um, I, uh, I just appreciate this conversation. I feel like I could spend hours more doing this with you. Um, and you're one of the few people that I cared enough about to say, would you join me? Can we do this again? Um, and I think there's still more, you know, to your story. So, uh, I couldn't, couldn't say thank you enough. And, uh, this has just been amazing.

[01:13:01] Thank you for being on MSP Mindset, Nick. Thank you.