How to Stop Playing Small and Build a Major MSP, with Jeff Newton

[00:00:00] and even an MSP owner who commits to I'm only gonna do 10 grand net new MRR which some would be happy with next year, they don't even know the weight of carrying the quota because in their mind they know that what's gonna happen if I don't? Who's gonna fire me? I think of it as like the chicken exit on a roller coaster. You didn't even have to get on the ride because you just waited in line all day to just step right through the cart and out the chicken exit. That's what it's like to not hold yourself accountable to that number.

[00:00:27] Hey guys, Damien Stevens, host of MSP Mindset. I'm so excited to be at GrowCon 2024 and be in person with Jeffrey Newton. Jeffrey, thank you for making time to take the energy and the time to speak with me with your busy schedule at GrowCon. Yeah, happy to do it. We had such a good first conversation. Oh my gosh, so many people are asking and commenting and sharing about what you shared there. So I don't want to waste any time. I want to kind of get right into it. Right.

[00:00:57] You've come to GrowCon how many times? This is my third time. Okay. And then as a customer, which side of the aisle? Yeah, so the first two years were as a customer in MSP and then this year as a speaker on the main stage tomorrow. Okay. Great. So I'm going to get right into this. You've been an MSP that grew dramatically or multiple MSPs, depending on who you want to kind of paint that. Yeah, yeah.

[00:01:23] And you're, you know, author books and co-founder Sift and all these other things. What do you think the biggest challenge most MSPs are facing right now are? Or what do you hear the most? Yeah. I think the first thing that I deduce from what I hear is that each MSP really does have a deep desire to pursue what their vision, what their dream really is. Right. Like there's no lack of want to.

[00:01:54] And then the second piece of that that I discover is that most of them are fairly disillusioned as a result of touching that hot stove once or twice or three times before. Meaning they want to grow. They want to really build the business as a business rather than just a lifestyle. And so they do experience or explore dabble with, I'm going to try this marketing thing or I'm going to do this.

[00:02:16] And as a result, the experience that they come out with doesn't necessarily leave them with the best taste in their mouth. Right. And so the funny thing that's funny is not the right word. It's more of like the finicky or the fickle thing about the industry is that there sort of are so many charlatans on the edges that you can't really blame them. Right. It's not their fault, but they really want to grow. They want to make a difference.

[00:02:45] They love what they do, even as stressful as it is at times. Right. But the overarching goal is that they love it. And they they want it, but they don't know how to go about it. And to the extent where some of them stop trying or think that it just isn't possible. Right. Sure.

[00:03:04] And and as a result, then they just sort of accept where they are, because that pain is at least a comfortable pain or a known pain rather than the fear of the unknown on the other side. Hey, guys, today's episode is sponsored by Servosity. I created Servosity because I was an MSP who lost data and had to face my client. I don't want you to ever be in that situation.

[00:03:30] So what's different about Servosity is that we test your backups maniacally. We do them. We test those daily, weekly, monthly and quarterly. We manage the backups for you. So 80 percent of your workload is gone and you can focus on your core mission. And all of the storage is both immutable and unlimited. If you'd like to learn more, take a look at Servosity dot com. Yeah. I love how you talked about the charlatans on the edge, because I know there's a lot of MSPs I've talked to.

[00:04:00] They're like, whenever I take these accounts over, I can't believe how little these people were doing, how much they were charging them, giving them so little value. Yeah. And because my experience with MSPs, for the most part, are people that have put their blood, sweat and tears into it. They've been over backwards. In fact, most of them aren't even charging enough. Right. They're just providing so much value. Yeah. And, you know, they're just happy to be able to pay their team, have a great team, provide value for the client. Right.

[00:04:27] And so do you see any commonality in where they're getting stuck or where those maybe plateaus or complexity ceilings occur? Yeah, I think the boundary line is that traditionally what I've seen is that MSPs are cut from this cloth of they have always been tinkers. They're born natural problem solvers. They seek to find.

[00:04:57] They'll always work themselves through the situation. And there's an inherent flaw, I think, in that context of where you come from, too. And I usually describe it as this, is that just because you have the capability to figure it out or overcome it or whatever doesn't mean, one, you have the capacity or that it's where you should be playing. Right. And I think that there are times where MSP owners were. Let's just go to the growth side, since this is a growth conference.

[00:05:23] The sales side is it's the one area that they are least experienced. It's also the most uncomfortable because it takes them out of their natural state, which is problem solving and not like a savior from the hero standpoint. But like the people side of the business isn't really where they're most comfortable. It's the keyboard and the tech.

[00:05:45] Like, yeah, I like to generalize the industry after being in it for so long as like most MSP started with a really high technical aptitude individual who didn't want to work for someone else anymore. Went out on their own, had just enough people skills to land their first clients, get the referrals. They were all in. They did such a great job doing what they do. But they turn around one day and sort of had a business with like two coworkers that are two employees. Right. But they didn't know how to manage. They don't want to manage. They don't like accountability. They don't want to do all those things.

[00:06:13] And so a lot of the industry gets limited at maybe five people, sub one million in revenue because you just sit there and spend all those plates all the time. Right. And as a result of growing, the natural progression then is now you have all these other things trying to steal your time or that actually do steal your time. Yes. And so then the things that made you great start to slip.

[00:06:35] And now you're just in this internal strife where it's like you wake up one day and do you even really love what you do anymore because you don't get to do the parts that you do. And so to answer your question directly after that context is they they lack the maybe willingness or commitment to hiring for the pieces that are not their strengths. Right. I heard this quote on a book that I was reading on the plane here where it was specifically talking about hiring.

[00:07:05] And the difference was most people fall into that trap of hiring for lack of weaknesses rather than hiring for the strengths that you need for the objective that you're trying to accomplish. And I thought, man, I made that mistake so many times. Right. Like, and the industry, I remember maybe like my third MSP that I was at probably about 10 years into my career was in the conference room just literally banging my head at why did this situation happen?

[00:07:34] Like, how could we even find ourselves in this situation? Yeah. And me and the CEO had this conversation of sometimes when you're in an MSP, it feels like the recipe for success is to suck a little bit less than the next guy and stay in business a little bit longer. And like if you just accomplish those two things, then you will find success. Yeah.

[00:07:57] But there's a different recipe and you can find success in a lot faster and easier ways than simply outlasting the other people. That one, I love it because I think that's exactly what's going on, but nobody says it. No one says it. And I don't think you realize it. Yeah. I think you're just, it's like, you know, there are some people that love the infinite game, right? And the game is to stay in business. Yeah. And I understand that.

[00:08:21] But I think there are people that are just playing that but at a lower level, just saying, you know, I'm just trying to stay in business. Right. And if I stay in business, that's, you know, victory, even if I'm not growing, if I'm not learning, if I'm not changing. Um, it's just a victory to stay in business. Yeah. And especially it can be really challenging at a certain levels, as you know, because, uh, it can happen at any level, but I think it's easier at the smaller levels to be in a price war. Right.

[00:08:49] You know, you're not charging enough and, you know, all of a sudden you have a bunch of competition coming in and they're kind of just throwing out lower numbers. You feel pressure to lower yours. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You hit on that earlier, which I do think is also fundamentally true of my experience with almost all MSPs that I've interacted with is they all also tend to come from more of a altruistic background. And maybe, maybe that's a little too strong of a word, but like they, they will give you the shit off their back.

[00:09:18] They, they like to help. Yeah. And as a result, one of this other business owner used to say, like, he was the kind of person who would always put money in the plate at church, but would never talk about it. Right.

[00:09:29] Like that's how I equate the MSP concept to where, like you're always willing to give and in a self-sacrificial way that you've put yourself last for so long that you don't even know how to structure a sales conversation that puts you in a pricing that is going to leave some money left on the vine that you actually have something dropped to the bottom line at the end of it all.

[00:09:52] Right. And, uh, the sad part is you compound that over years and these amazing people with amazing businesses who have had so much impact have nothing left for themselves or their family at the end of it all.

[00:10:05] And yet you do have control as an MSP owner to fix that along the way and to start getting the results that you want and to transition from a lifestyle or a business that's supporting a type of lifestyle that you want into a true business, um, you know, from that lifestyle business. And, but it's also, it requires some vulnerability and it requires some action and execution and risk taking.

[00:10:33] And we were talking before we started rolling, like it requires the desire and the ability to be okay. And that piece with sucking for a little while and like understanding that that is the, the barrier to entry. That's actually the moat around your business because others aren't willing to do it either. So if you can commit to three months of sucking and like not being Mr. Mrs.

[00:10:59] Fix it who has all the answers, who's here to solve the problem and like just commit to the process of learning and understanding and like shedding your own expectation, just showing up and having conversations with people, human to human, even though it's uncomfortable and awkward when you're not used to it. But the other side of that is a business you never could have dreamt for yourself.

[00:11:22] So how do I, I know, you know, I can relate as an MSP, the tech guy, like even if it's, let's say I remember very clearly when I was like sales is clearly the issue and I'm clearly that issue. Right. And I have no idea what I'm doing and how I'm closing deals, how many, how I'm asking for business, all sorts of things. And I remember, you know, going to seek help, but I also very clearly remember going, I'm going to read a book. I'm going to go to this event. Sure. In a weekend.

[00:11:51] And I'm going to get this thing. Yeah. And, you know, it's entirely different to say I'm going to suck for three months, six months, nine months. Day in, day out. Right. Yeah. At least for me, it's really hard. Yeah. To do that. So how do I get out of my comfort zone, this safe land every year? And I feel like it's easy for me to say, I'll, I'll go spend a whole weekend at an event, reading books, and then I'm going to come out. Yeah. And maybe I'll be the expert, but I'm going to be decent.

[00:12:20] I'm going to be, you know, I'm going to be proficient. Yeah. And all of a sudden I'm just really bad. And I remember that was my sales journey. Right. Really bad for a long time. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I was the same way because I came up through MSP on the technical side of the business. I did that for the first 11 years, kind of every role on the tech side. And then I ended up in this strange thing called like account management that then sort of became VCIO before VCIO hit the market, you know, 10 ish years ago.

[00:12:48] And then I was just the person that was like the, the sales engineer that all the sales reps brought to all the meetings. And I enjoyed that part because it was helping and solving problems, but in a different way. Yeah. And then I remember being on the wrong side of the commission coin for doing all that. And so that was when I transitioned to sales full time and also got humbled insanely quickly because there was so much more to it behind the curtain and off stage that you never saw. Yeah. And there was no one but me to figure it out at that point. Right.

[00:13:17] I was the sales executive now. I wasn't the VCIO. And so like you had to really crack that code. The thing that I witnessed over those 18 years at five different MSPs was that like impulsive behavior that the CEO levels would generally have. Right. They'd go to the thing for the weekend and they'd think they got it or they read the right book on the plane on the way back and then they dropped the grenade on the company. Yeah. Like here's the flash in the pan. But their attention span is so short that they're already off looking for the next thing. Yeah.

[00:13:46] And like lobbing the grenades over their heads. Right. Right. At the business every three, six, nine months. And no one knows what to do with that. And I think the first thing you can do is there's kind of two schools. There's more, but let's just talk macro. You're either the tech guy that started the tech business and you've grown it or you're the business focused sales oriented individual who built the business and built it with tech people around you to like deliver.

[00:14:14] Figure out which one of those you are first. First, you have two options. Commit to sucking, but make sure that you backfill all the other functions of you in the company so that it doesn't collapse while you're figuring out how to sell for the next year or higher to that strength. Commit to sucking. That's easier said than done. Yeah. Very much so. And then if I go on a new journey, that second part, backfill. Yeah. Because somehow I think I'm Superman. Right.

[00:14:43] And I'm going to go and learn an entirely new discipline. Yeah. That entire teams of people normally do. Right. I'm going to be the SDR, the AE, the account management. I'm going to be the all these different roles. And but I'm also going to wear the CEO hat and the accounting hat and the little L3 hat.

[00:15:09] So how do you manage or how do you what would you say to me if you're if you're saying, Damien, you need to go get uncomfortable and get this new role? Yeah. Because number one, my first thing is, OK, once I go into this new thing, like I might want to run back into the old things. I'm not sure if I want to hand that off. Yeah, you will. You'll self-sabotage most of the time based on what I've seen. And the first I think the foundation to the answer is one of the things that most MSPs unknowingly do.

[00:15:40] That's a component of the self-sabotage is that because of the nature of how we grew as businesses, you do have an army of like jacks of all trades or shared hats, shared responsibilities. And you didn't even you don't even realize we don't even realize that we set ourselves up as individuals and as an organization to fail or at least struggle when we have all that shared responsibility. It's really similar to the everyone's accountable. So no one's accountable problem. Right.

[00:16:07] And the big cop out is that there's always a valid excuse to have missed the mark, to not hitting the goal, to do whatever. So usually when I get that question from an MSP owner who is taking on the sales hat is like, what's your number? What's your number this quarter? What's your number this year? What's your what's your number? And then if I get cross-eyed responses, then it's like, OK, let me ask it differently. As a sales rep, like what is the growth goal? What's the number that has to be hit in order to keep your job? Mm hmm.

[00:16:36] Both of those things really attack the lack of accountability as well. Right. Which gets uncomfortable. But if you as a business owner who's responsible for sales and growth, don't give yourself a number and you don't hit it and you're not willing to fire yourself as the sales rep, then you're just going to compound the problem and prolong it even further. And so a couple of things.

[00:16:58] One, I think, is the best possible thing you can do for your business is create clear, defined roles with singularity as the focus. So a sales rep that's responsible for sales activities and sales outcomes and sales deliverables.

[00:17:16] And and it needs to be a sales professional because the other thing that MSPs unknowingly, I think, get wrong is that traditionally speaking, they the idea that they have about what sales is, is everything they've done to get the business to where they are, which in my definition is order taking. Yeah. Right. Their sales conversations look and feel a little something like, how many people do you have? How many locations do you have? How many devices do you have? Are you going to be growing? Here's the quote.

[00:17:45] I'll follow up once or twice, but then I'm off to the other thing that I've forgotten about. And like, that's the sales motion, but it's worked. Right. So it's programmed you to think that that's what success looks like and that's what sales looks like. But it's not. That's just order taking from warm referrals or introductions. Right. Yeah. Actual growth comes from relationships that you didn't have. And there's no third, fourth or fifth degree of Kevin Bacon to help you get the deal. It's literally a sales conversation. Right.

[00:18:15] I need to educate or compel or persuade or facilitate someone buying the thing they already desire that I happen to have. And that's a totally different skill set. And it's OK to not have it. Yeah. And it's also OK to recognize that you're just going to suck at trying it for a while while you figure out how to do it. Yes.

[00:18:37] But but it really comes down to clarity and accountability and then consistency. Right. Consistent action over time more than anything. And figure out, like, do I have this? Is this my strength or am I covering up for a weakness? Am I just filling a need that the business has or am I really doubling down on where I can have true impact? Mm hmm. And that's that's one of the flaws that I see across all of it.

[00:19:06] It's like, again, self-sabotage might be one way of looking at it, but it's like, well, I've tried outsourcing X, Y, Z or I've done this or that. Like and we're so black and white to write off the things that have not worked out well rather than looking at the uncomfortable truth where it's like, OK, well, I signed up for a service that gave me 10 leads a month, but I still don't know how to close a lead or nurture it from start to finish. So was it the leads that were wrong and they're the failure?

[00:19:32] Usually that's how we like to project it because it preserves our ego. Yeah. But the reality might be I don't even know how to pick up the phone and have that conversation for the lead that was sent to me. And so it's just easier to say, well, marketing doesn't work or cold legion doesn't work. And then you can get consumed by I've got this tier three project I need to get done or the server migration or a net new client or this onboarding or I got to pick a new insurance vendor. Right. Like all the stuff. Yeah. But the multiple hats gives you.

[00:20:00] So I think there's just safety in in that for MSPs. And then there's no one to call your bluff. Right. At the end of the day, you get what you tolerate. And if you tolerate that from yourself, no one's going to call you on that. So then you're only just going to get what you've gotten, especially if you're the owner. Right. Right. You get what you tolerate. Amazing. Amazing one. You talked about the singularity of roles. Mm hmm.

[00:20:27] In my experience, when I start growing, one of my mistakes I made and what I see MSPs do is, OK, maybe I'm not great at sales. Yeah. And so I'm going to hire a sales rep. Mm hmm. The problem is I talk to so many MSPs that hand them a phone book. Yeah. And they hire maybe somebody that's in kind of executive. Right. And they say, go to business after hours. Here's a phone book. Yeah. Just make it rain. Yeah. Right. And that's not specializing. That is throwing everything out.

[00:20:57] So how when you when you are smaller, you're just getting into sales, getting that first person and you're getting it built out. Especially it's one thing if they're following you and you built that process and you've gone through the pain and you're handing the process off to somebody. But if I'm not that, you know, if I am really hiring because I have this deficit of skills. Right. How do I how do you even attack this problem? Because I don't feel like I can just hire an army of people. Yeah. You know, and I can't hire a CRO and say, go fix that for me. Right.

[00:21:27] So how do I get started? And and then I'm wrestling with the singularity. It's like, I don't know. I feel like I need an army of people. Right. I think the one core takeaway I had through my journey on that was, again, as MSPs and I can speak that way because I was one for so long. Like I fell into this category, too. We believe that the problem is solved when we've made the decision rather than when we've built the plan through the decision that we made.

[00:21:54] Meaning we we think we solve the sales problem when we hire our first sales rep because we need it done. Right. Well, what is the first day of the job look like for the sales rep? Again, what's their number? What's their quota? Who are they selling to? What are they selling? More importantly, what aren't they selling? Who aren't they talking to? What aren't we going to do? Right. What does their 90 day growth and success plan look like?

[00:22:20] In most cases, to your point, the definition of success and and the problem being solved was like I hired my sales rep and they start on the first. And here's the phone book. Like it's not all of the context beneath. Here's what success looks like for sales. And so I think first, if nothing else, understand that the problem is not solved when you make the decision. But the problem is solved when you've built the foundation beneath the decision that you made at least 90 days out in front of the decision that was made.

[00:22:50] And then more importantly, too, we sort of like advocate responsibility for what the result is as well. Right. So we hire the rep and now we just expect the magical lead fairy and a magical MRR fairy to just drop clients onto our P&L. Right. And then when it doesn't happen, we get upset because we're paying you all this money. We're doing all these things. And it's just it's not a reflection of, you know, what could have been done, what should have been done. But instead, like you didn't set them up for success.

[00:23:18] I was fortunate really early on in my journey, one, to be offered opportunities within the MSPs I worked for that in my own opinion and my own self-assessment after the fact, I didn't deserve. I wasn't prepared for it. I didn't have the experience for it. But I also knew once I committed to it that I wouldn't fail and I wouldn't like there was no other option. Like everything was kind of a burn the boat scenario.

[00:23:40] And if I follow that ladder up a bit, I was also really fortunate to to discover on my own through my own evolution and increase in roles and everything else. Like what the heck a Peter principle was. Right. And I was 24, maybe 23, 24.

[00:24:02] I was elevated to network operations manager, responsible for 26 people across two cities with zero or more people than you are years old. With zero management experience, zero training, zero anything else. It was just I was I found a way to be great in the roles that I had before that. So the natural progression for an MSP is to elevate that way. Right. You take your best engineer and all of a sudden they're tier one, tier two, tier three. They're at tier three forever.

[00:24:31] You turn them into your network operations manager, your service manager, whatever you call them. And now all of a sudden everything sucks and they're miserable and nothing else is really working because fundamentally the skill set that it takes to be successful in those roles is drastically different. I was self-aware enough to realize I was miserable doing it, but I was also I wasn't setting everyone else up for success as a result of that being my responsibility.

[00:24:57] At that MSP, one of our core values, though, is to put yourself and everyone else in a position to win. And I knew that I wasn't in a position to win, but I also wasn't putting the 26 people that I was responsible for in a position to be successful either. And so having the foresight and the trust and the relationship built with the CEO there to say, look, this is not for me. I mean, even if you think I'm doing a great job like this, it just isn't for me. Right.

[00:25:23] Let's figure out where I can go back and provide value and like really work my magic. And I think what I discovered through that process and the grace of being able to pivot like that was one, I didn't even know what the Peter principle was either until I encountered it myself.

[00:25:41] And two, I think that's kind of where people get stuck is the illusion of what success looks like is, again, not trained, not taught, not prescribed in here's your growth plan. Here's the this role to this role to this role. I mean, my career wasn't that way. I think I've had about every title you can have except for CEO at an MSP. But it wasn't because that was my career progression path that was pre-set out.

[00:26:08] It was just sort of showing up every day for the job that I wanted versus the job that I had. And then realizing which ones were great and which ones were not playing to my strengths and trying to double down to the pieces that really felt fulfilling was the gold. Several times in this interview, I feel like you're reading my story. Like one of my guys, you know, L1, L2, L3, and ultimately I put him in the leadership role. Yeah.

[00:26:36] Worst decision ever for him, for me, for the team. A blessing is he came to me and kind of was self-aware enough to help realize that and work through a transition because I think, you know, I was pushing to be something you couldn't really be. Right. Didn't want to be. Was loathed. Mm-hmm. Literally loathed. Yeah. He was like this. I went from the best place to work that I love coming in to like, why am I doing this? You know, why do I exist? Why am I even here? Yeah.

[00:27:04] And it wasn't that what we were doing or the mission. It was that I just had the right guy in the wrong role. Right. And man, that, I'm very fortunate that he had the emotional maturity. Right. And that we could work through it because I think the normal thing, me being the idiot that I was, would have been like, man, I just took my best guy and put him in the wrong role. And now he's gone. And I've seen that, you know, one, I experienced it multiple times at different MSPs, but then I observed it as well. Right.

[00:27:31] Now, again, I, I was very fortunate in my journey to at least be at a level of influence if I wasn't directly on the leadership team for most of that 18 years.

[00:27:42] And so I was able to see the patterns from my own past as well and prevent some of those scenarios, because the thing about MSP across the board, whether it's sales and trying to sell for an MSP or its operations and running in MSP is that we are like masters of ambiguity. Right. Like we, no one gave me the playbook to figure out how to do what I did the whole time. That's right.

[00:28:08] I just was scrappy enough with enough determination or grit or, you know, some other words, probably to, to not find success. And not everyone is cut out for that. Yeah. Not everyone shows up wanting that. A lot of people, and this isn't a bad thing, but a lot of people desire the clarity of what progression looks like. Right. This is the role that you have. These are the expectations.

[00:28:37] This is what winning the day looks like. If you win enough days in a row, then this is what, what, what's next looks like. And this is what winning the day in that role looks like. And then to your own point, like there's not enough grace, I don't think, to realize maybe when we've made a Peter Principle decision and own that I have the right person in the wrong seat.

[00:29:02] So I either need to create another seat, find the right seat or just be okay absorbing, you know, that loss until we figure it out, keeping the right person on, but putting them in a position to win again. And I think all of that can be found in the space that you create as the business owner to really take a step back and look at the on the business, not in the business stuff. Right. Right.

[00:29:29] Most owners, leaders at MSPs are so back to singularity of roles and focus. They're so in the business because they haven't found ways to replace or displace the areas that they have to contribute or their ego won't let them step aside one or the other. And that's where you get trapped in that same thing. It's just still, again, a singularity of focus.

[00:29:53] And then because you're sucked in it, then you get trapped back into the, well, I have plenty of viable excuses, right? Yes. To lack the accountability. Like, well, what do you want me to do? Create this new role? Hire this new person when I have these nine projects that need done in 17 days before the end of the year? Yeah. They find themselves in these irrefutable arguments, which is really just making excuses. Mm-hmm. Yes. Just making excuses. Yeah. I love how you wrapped that up.

[00:30:21] So we're at GrowCon. We're talking about growth. Yeah. If I'm sitting there as the CEO, how do I understand if I need to get out of my comfort zone and lead the sales charge? Sure. Develop the sales skills and not be an order taker. Yeah. All the things, that big journey. How do I have to take that journey or if I need to hire for that journey because I'm going to, it's a chasm too wide. Right. It's something I'm going to loathe.

[00:30:51] Like, how could I figure that out before falling, you know, prey to the Peter Principle myself? Sure. I think based on our last conversation, the data would tell me that what MSPs are leaning into to try to answer the most, which sits beneath your question, which is part of my answer, which didn't go deep enough, was measuring your level of commitment to the vision that you have.

[00:31:20] And we talked a little bit about that, right? Time, talent, treasure. Let me back up and start answering your conversation by saying we're at the end of the year. It's December. What were your goals for 2024? You're staring down the barrel of 2025. Have you set your, did you hit it or miss it? What was your number? Yeah. Do you get to keep your job in 2025 or are you firing yourself as the sales development rep? Right. Figure that out first. If there was no number, that's step one, right?

[00:31:50] Declare a number, period. Write it down. Make it public, even if that just means internal accountability inside your organization. But now it exists, right? So you're either making 2025 about I'm going to go hit that number and I'm going to do everything I can myself to do it. Making those decisions and prioritizing it. Committing to the resources and the time and the talent and the treasure to making it happen.

[00:32:15] Or acknowledging that there's a faster way, which is to tap into people who've already solved the problem that you're trying to solve. Bring that person in. Bring the process in. Bring the guidance or the expertise in. And then focus all your time on executing the plan rather than trying to solve the problem someone else has already solved. Because as natural problem solvers, that's the sexy dopamine hit part of the business for us is to solve the problem.

[00:32:45] That's right. It's an illusion, right? Someone else has solved it. We're not all that special. We're not the smartest in the world. Other people have the answers. Right. Investing in their solution and committing to the execution of their plan. Make it your own if you want. But at the same time, that's just another version of self-sabotage where you're like, I want the success. That person has it. I've paid for them to give it to me. But I want it to be mine. So here's my DNA. And I've completely butchered the process. Like everything's Frankensteined.

[00:33:14] It seems like inside an MSP because we can't let that part go. Right. But it is oftentimes the commitment to the decision is where I see people fail. Like I want to grow by 100 grand MRR next year. Great. And maybe that number's too big. Let's just go 10 because it's more manageable. Okay. 10 grand net new MRR next year. Like how are you going to get there? Deduce it. Like work backwards. Reverse engineer it. You're good at that stuff. You're logical and analytical. That part's easy. But how are you going to get there? Period. Right. And by when?

[00:33:42] If it doesn't have a date and it's not really a goal. And then once you know, then you have to commit those resources. Maybe it's time. Maybe it's your own talent. Maybe it's someone else's. Maybe it's just dollars in an agency. Maybe you're bringing it in-house. I mean there's plenty of ways to solve the problem. But the problem needs to be clear. And then the commitment to solving the problem. Like what happens if you miss? Yes. Right. What happens if you miss? And what happens if you hit? Yeah. Right.

[00:34:12] Make a president's club. Pre-declare. Like pre-buy the tickets to wherever you're going to go as the reward for getting it done. But what happens if you miss? Right. And who's going to hold you accountable to that? And what's it going to cost to do it? I think people tend to drastically, not drastically undervalue or under quantify what it will take. But they lack the discipline to stick with it. Long enough to get the result.

[00:34:42] That was, I think of that three feet from gold analogy. Right? People quit when it was just like one more swing of the pickaxe. And it was right there. Yeah. And instead we say, doesn't work. Or it doesn't work for me. You know, burn it all down kind of a mentality instead. Which is really just do it longer than the other guy and stay in business longer and suck a little bit less. Right? Do what you say you're going to do. But more importantly, I think it's make the commitment to the number.

[00:35:12] What happens if you don't get it? And how are you going to make that happen? Right. Especially when you're the owner. Yeah. Because everybody else, you want them to have a number. Mm-hmm. And they're going to have a consequence. Yeah. Right. And then as the owner, you often don't want to commit to a number. Right. You don't even write it down. You don't even know what it is. Yeah. Then you don't, like you said, you don't commit. Right. And then whether you hit it or you don't. Mm-hmm. And I almost wonder if it's not only the not, but especially when you do. Yeah. You know, there's a lot of power.

[00:35:42] To that curate. Mm-hmm. Not just the stake. Yeah. There's a piece to that that I don't think. Those that haven't sat inside a sales role, and certainly those that have sat inside a sales role that don't get the veto card of being an owner, they don't know what, they don't know the emotional impact or the psychological impact or the weight that is truly placed on a quota-carrying role. Right? Yeah. And even an MSP owner who commits to, I'm only going to do 10 grand net new MRR, which

[00:36:10] some would be happy with next year. They don't even know the weight of carrying the quota because in their mind, they know that what's going to happen if I don't. Right? Like, who's going to fire me? Right. It doesn't matter. I'll just set it at 10 again the next year. Yeah. Or I'll set it at 20 and we'll hit eight and I'll be happy. Like, there's just this, there's a, I think of it as like the chicken exit on a roller coaster. Right? You didn't even have to get on the ride because you just waited in line all day to just step

[00:36:39] right through the cart and out the chicken exit. That's what it's like to not hold yourself accountable to that number. And that's sort of like maybe a more quantifiable way of defining the, what's it going to take to suck for a couple of months or a couple of years. There's no expectation of time, by the way, people do it differently, right? You evolve, you learn, you grow different resources, different backgrounds, different aptitudes, all that stuff.

[00:37:03] But the self-sabotage of knowing that there isn't an implication for if you do not hit the number is I think sort of the secret unlock that hopefully you, Mr. MSP owner, Mrs. MSP owner, that you're hearing that as like, oh yeah, you're right. I hate you for saying that, Jeffrey, but like you're right, you know? Yeah. Because accountability makes you feel icky.

[00:37:30] And if you feel icky, then like, you know, you're doing it right. Yeah. You know, so find a way to put yourself in a position to not feel like you let yourself down because if you set out with the goal of knowing that no one can do anything to you about it at the end of the year, when you don't hit your number, then it's so toxic all year long for you and you don't even know it because you've given yourself that out and excuse and you just lied to yourself the whole time.

[00:37:57] And more importantly, you lied to the business and all the people that are there to trust you and do it. And so it's just this wild, complex, you know, macro psychological ecosystem. Yes. But ask any quota carrying rep and they've all gone through it until they're fully comfortable with whatever the quota is because it isn't about the quota. That's right. It's about winning. That's right. Right. And finding a way to win. That's right. And if you figure out how to do that every day and define what that is, you're ahead of

[00:38:27] almost everybody. Absolutely. Talking about accountability. I remember when I was like, I don't have to like making calls, but I have to make calls. Yeah. And so as an owner, man, I hate doing the books, but also I was doing the books. I was doing anything to avoid making calls. Right. Cool calls. Yeah. And so I had to get a peer of mine and we built this accountability. And every week we had a quick check in. Did you or didn't you?

[00:38:54] And then to make it real, there was two things. One, I'm embarrassed to say, but I will. The first was, you know, I'm going to give you a hundred dollars every time I don't do this every week. Yeah. And when I was just getting going, that was, that was the difference between eating ramen noodles and not eating, you know, it's painful. And then the next one was, I'm going to show up at this event wearing something that you get to pick, you know? And then it was funny. Psychologically, that was the motorway. I was like, I know your taste and I don't, I don't think I'm going to like that. Yeah.

[00:39:24] And so I was like, I'm going to pick up the phone. I'm glad you brought it up because it really, it helped me clarify some answers to that too, because this was a litmus test that I would have when I talk one-on-one with some MSPs. Like I can tell whether or not you're going to lie to yourself all year or not based upon a list of your to-dos right now, because whether you realize that or not, when you created your list, all those sales activities that are like number 39 and 40 and 41 at the very bottom

[00:39:51] of the list that have been there for months or years, I already know that we need to replace you as a sales rep, right? Because you don't find it fulfilling. You find it draining. You, you're avoiding it consciously. And as a result, you'll never get the results that are on the other end of those activities. And so like, just be honest with yourself and it's okay if you always prioritize everything else over anything sales related, just acknowledge that that isn't what lights you up inside and find someone who is lit up by it.

[00:40:21] And when you put people in a position to really work their magic day in and day out, the results are magical and it isn't like, they don't feel the same way you do about it. That's right. They feel like it's the greatest server migration they ever deployed, right? Or the biggest onboarding they ever accomplished or a fully remote exchange migration. It's like whatever, whatever the things are that you're like, man, I nailed it. That's how they feel when they pick up the phone and call. Yeah. When they close the deal, when they pull the signature in, when they do all the things

[00:40:49] that, that go into it. And I remember, I can clearly remember about mid journey when I was realizing I was not a network operations manager. That same thing. The thing that tripped me to realize that this is not for me is I slowly realized that everyone else in the world does not look at or experience the world the same way that I do. Right. And more importantly, I actually didn't know how to communicate what I needed or what I

[00:41:16] intended to have happen to someone who doesn't see the world the same way as me. Because there was a language barrier and a mental barrier, not a, not a there an issue thing. It was like, I lacked the ability to, to draw the parallels through communication at that age and experience to get the desired impact I needed from 26 people because they weren't 23 or 26 Jeffries, like looking at it all the same way.

[00:41:42] And I couldn't figure out like, help me understand how you made the decisions you made to get to where we are having this conversation. I wasn't mature enough or experienced enough to, to know how to navigate any of that at the time. And, but it was a great, powerful lesson of actually people and understanding kind of that, that point that I'd illustrated. So yeah, it's, you know, show, I think it was it Brian Tracy, maybe sort of like a show me your activities and I can show you your future concept.

[00:42:10] And it's like, okay, show me what you've been avoiding for the last two weeks. And I'll tell you what decisions you need to make in which roles you need to change or which hats you need to take off. And that doesn't mean you failed. It just means you actually want the outcome. So let's give it to someone who wants it too. Yeah. I think there's a lot of power to show me your calendar and I'll show you where you'd be in a year type of thing. Right. Uh, and I think there's a big difference to saying it and then it being in your calendar. Right. Right. Yeah. Absolutely. Making sure it happens.

[00:42:38] Uh, I felt like we could do this the entire conference, but I know you've got other things to do. Thank you for making the time to be on MC Mindset. Yeah, absolutely. Loved it. Appreciate it.