"I Had 45 Direct Reports" - The Power of Letting Go as a CEO, with John Snyder

[00:00:16] Some of us have too much of a willingness to work past six, to work on weekends, work on nights. That tendency that we all have to really work hard because we're doing it on behalf of the businesses that we support, we care a lot. But coupled in that, we forget about ourselves, self-care, we forget about the loved ones who are missing out on us and our attention.

[00:00:37] I'm not talking about self-care where you go get a hot stone massage, whatever treatment at a spa. I mean, I'm talking about a normal night's rest. Eating lunch sometime between noon and 2pm. Shocking.

[00:00:55] Hey guys, Damien Stevens, host of MSP Mindset. And I am very excited to be live at Grocon 2024. And I'm even more excited to talk with John Snyder, CEO of NetFriends. So thank you for being here, John.

[00:01:10] Thanks for having me, Damien. Appreciate it.

[00:01:12] I want to kind of dig right in. Share with us a little bit about how you came to be CEO of NetFriends.

[00:01:18] Well, it's a long story. It starts with me not applying for the job at all. I was actually, you know, I'll try to tell this as short as possible. I was working as a student at Duke and the guy I was working for asked if I wanted a free lunch. I said, sure. And I was a tag along to his job interview.

[00:01:40] And that was weird. I ended up getting the job, but I started as a field tech in 1999.

[00:01:46] But let me back you up just for a second. Went up from there.

[00:01:48] Somebody said you want a free lunch. Who was this somebody? This was a...

[00:01:51] His name's Kisan. He is a friend or what's the relationship?

[00:01:54] He was technically my boss.

[00:01:57] Okay, your boss at the time.

[00:01:58] Yeah. And Kisan was, up until 18, he was a Sherpa going up to Mount Everest Base Camp in Nepal.

[00:02:09] And so he...

[00:02:09] I didn't see that coming.

[00:02:10] Yeah, I know. It's kind of different.

[00:02:12] And so he may not have been totally aware about how normal hiring practices work in the United States.

[00:02:19] So, but yeah.

[00:02:21] So he invited you to come along to the job interview.

[00:02:23] He invited me to come along.

[00:02:25] And David, the founder of NetFriends, was quite surprised that this random guy shows up.

[00:02:30] I won't talk about what I was wearing, but let's just say it was not appropriate.

[00:02:33] People at NetFriends know what I was wearing because it's been in some of our annual quizzes about...

[00:02:39] Yeah, which shocks the people who don't know.

[00:02:41] But I just was not prepared for the interview at all.

[00:02:44] And I was just there for free food and ended up landing the job.

[00:02:47] Because back in 1999, you pretty much, if you fogged a mirror, you could get a job in IT.

[00:02:53] There was a lot of...

[00:02:54] I mean, we talk about the talent shortage.

[00:02:56] It was acute back then.

[00:02:58] Yes.

[00:02:58] It was a good time to get into IT.

[00:03:00] It was.

[00:03:01] Yeah.

[00:03:01] I remember that.

[00:03:02] Yeah.

[00:03:02] So flash forward...

[00:03:04] How do you go from free lunch to CEO?

[00:03:09] Like, everybody want to understand that?

[00:03:10] Yeah.

[00:03:11] Yeah.

[00:03:11] It's a little odd.

[00:03:12] So, I mean, I was a field tech for many, many years.

[00:03:15] I did create our first recurring revenue.

[00:03:20] Identified a compliance opportunity, sold into it.

[00:03:23] And I think that really created the basis for me to break out from just being yet another tech

[00:03:28] into someone who had some entrepreneurial spirit.

[00:03:33] I really found there was a vision vacuum in the business.

[00:03:36] And it drove me nuts every year.

[00:03:38] I would start the year off in January going,

[00:03:41] I don't think I can do this for another year because I just don't even know why we're here,

[00:03:44] what we're doing, what our purpose is.

[00:03:46] And so I asked for ownership in 2007.

[00:03:50] It took a long time for the owner to come around and give me some ownership.

[00:03:55] But he did, and he gave it to me.

[00:03:57] It was actually a gift.

[00:03:58] And I think it was partially in response to the fact that I'd created some revenue along the way.

[00:04:04] And partially because he saw that long term, I was going to be part of his succession plan.

[00:04:09] And so flash forward to 2020, when, you know, right after COVID and everything,

[00:04:16] that was the year when it was pretty obvious it was about time for him to exit.

[00:04:20] So at the end of the year, I had a conversation with him.

[00:04:22] And he agreed it was time.

[00:04:24] And we had a wonderful collaborative exit.

[00:04:27] He literally drove off into the sunset, took a picture of it, sent it back.

[00:04:31] It was great.

[00:04:32] And we have a great working relationship.

[00:04:35] I mean, he's a great guy, super kind.

[00:04:37] And he was just a crisis manager.

[00:04:40] He was the guy that was perfect for a young business when there's fires everywhere.

[00:04:46] But he's not someone who really had a builder mentality.

[00:04:50] Growth happened around him, kind of like by surprise versus with intention.

[00:04:56] And I wanted to have intentional growth growing in a specific direction.

[00:05:01] And that's partially why I took on a partner in 2016, Nealish, who's here today.

[00:05:08] But he's someone who's my age.

[00:05:12] He's got similar interests.

[00:05:14] And he's really been on this journey with me.

[00:05:16] And so those are some things I think that are kind of unique for me is I was given ownership.

[00:05:23] I then gave ownership to a partner that I could see could share this journey.

[00:05:27] So I'm not lonely and having to make all the decisions by myself.

[00:05:32] Yeah, so many questions.

[00:05:34] Yeah, sorry.

[00:05:34] That was a lot.

[00:05:35] No, no, no.

[00:05:36] It was great.

[00:05:36] I just have so many that I want to ask.

[00:05:38] But let me start with just kind of getting a handle of like when you started right after

[00:05:43] that free lunch.

[00:05:45] Like what was the headcount?

[00:05:48] Oh, I was the fourth employee.

[00:05:50] So there were three others.

[00:05:52] And then when you took, I guess maybe when you took over and you rode off to the sunset,

[00:05:58] where were you guys at that stage?

[00:06:01] At that point?

[00:06:01] Oh, gosh.

[00:06:03] You're making me go back to that crazy year of 2020.

[00:06:06] Yeah.

[00:06:07] We were probably around 40, 45 folks then.

[00:06:13] Wow.

[00:06:13] And when he gave me ownership in 2009, the company actually split in two.

[00:06:23] And I got ownership of the service side and the application development side went another

[00:06:28] way.

[00:06:29] We were about 32 folks prior to that split.

[00:06:32] But 16 went in the service direction.

[00:06:35] 16 went in the app development direction.

[00:06:38] And so we grew from 2009 until 2020 from 16 people up to about 45.

[00:06:46] But we actually grew to 45 people by 2012.

[00:06:49] We then just flatlined for several years trying to figure it out.

[00:06:55] This episode is brought to you by Servosity.

[00:06:58] I started Servosity because I was an MSP that lost data because I thought backup success meant

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[00:07:43] Or you can keep the tech stack you have in place, your existing backup into your provider

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[00:07:54] maturity today.

[00:07:57] So I'm going to go back to the partner piece.

[00:08:00] I know that I have started many companies, some with partners.

[00:08:04] Apparently, I'm not good at playing with others.

[00:08:07] I've not always ended up well.

[00:08:10] But I've always said, man, having the right partner could be really, really key.

[00:08:14] What drove you to make that decision to say, I want to bring somebody in?

[00:08:18] Now I've been in this role.

[00:08:20] Gosh, several things.

[00:08:25] So I remember this meeting I had in 2013.

[00:08:31] So I've been a minority owner now for about four years.

[00:08:35] And my meeting was titled The Neelish Problem.

[00:08:40] And I was trying to convince David, the founder, that Neelish was an extremely ambitious guy.

[00:08:46] Over that five-year period, he had grown our business substantially.

[00:08:51] And he was someone who we either found a way to promote him and give him a career path that would make him want to stay in our small business.

[00:09:02] Or we accept the fact that he's going to go somewhere else.

[00:09:05] And I described it as we wouldn't notice that our growth had stalled at first because there would be enough momentum left behind by his departure.

[00:09:13] But then a year after he's gone, suddenly some customers don't renew.

[00:09:18] Some customers go away.

[00:09:19] They just ghost us.

[00:09:21] And then more and more ghosts because he would just – I was like, he's the guy that if we're competing against him, we will lose.

[00:09:27] I was like, I don't think I can beat this guy.

[00:09:30] He's too charismatic.

[00:09:32] He's too skilled.

[00:09:33] And people love him.

[00:09:34] And I was like, so why not we solve the Neelish problem by promoting from within and giving him an outlet and opportunity to be an owner someday?

[00:09:44] And that argument carried the day.

[00:09:46] And it took a while.

[00:09:47] It always takes a while for all the logistics of bringing on a new owner.

[00:09:51] It's such a big event.

[00:09:54] And so it took another couple years after that to really sort it all out.

[00:09:59] I love the title.

[00:10:00] Yeah.

[00:10:01] The Neelish Problem.

[00:10:01] The Neelish Problem.

[00:10:03] It's great when you frame your future partner as the problem.

[00:10:06] Yeah.

[00:10:07] And it's like some problems are good to have, right?

[00:10:11] Like too much growth is a good problem to have.

[00:10:13] Yeah.

[00:10:14] So maybe a problem not as good to have.

[00:10:17] I'll let you decide.

[00:10:18] But tell me about hitting the ceiling and kind of flatline.

[00:10:22] Which ceiling?

[00:10:22] I've hit so many of them.

[00:10:24] I've hit every corner and every edge of every ceiling.

[00:10:28] Gosh, I don't know.

[00:10:29] I'd have to almost pick one.

[00:10:30] I don't know.

[00:10:31] Give me a bit more to work with there.

[00:10:33] Because I honestly am a traffic jam.

[00:10:33] I was going off the one where you said we hit like 40, 45 employees and then we flatlined.

[00:10:37] Okay.

[00:10:38] Yeah.

[00:10:38] So we started at 16 people in 2009.

[00:10:44] Grew 40% year over year in that time.

[00:10:47] Which I know what's weird is in 2008, 2009, a lot of MSPs were going through the Great Recession and the crisis of it.

[00:10:55] But we had a major client that was actually doing a massive healthcare investment.

[00:11:01] And so we rode that wave.

[00:11:04] And we actually kind of converted into a staffing agency, it felt like.

[00:11:09] I mean, we were still doing IT work and managed services.

[00:11:12] But we were just plugging people into slots over that time.

[00:11:16] And so the growth happened really, really fast and happened underneath me without much planning.

[00:11:23] Very reactive.

[00:11:23] And then suddenly I had 45 direct reports.

[00:11:27] And I was the only manager.

[00:11:29] 45 direct reports.

[00:11:29] Yeah.

[00:11:30] And I was still doing 30 hours of billable work a week, working with some very complex systems.

[00:11:38] So I was managing a system that had 110 terabytes of patient data that was in use by 1,800 clinicians every minute of every day.

[00:11:49] And I was the subject matter expert for it.

[00:11:52] I was the one that had done all the upgrades on it.

[00:11:55] It was very hard to extricate myself from that.

[00:11:57] And so by the time 2012 came around, I was far too billable.

[00:12:04] And I wasn't running things like I need to.

[00:12:06] I had 45 people directly reporting to me.

[00:12:08] And I had to go through a massive reinvention, not only of my own day-to-day, but also really put in a managerial layer into the company that wasn't there.

[00:12:20] And no matter how you insert management, you're going through a massive change.

[00:12:25] Because nobody's definition of the company is holding anymore.

[00:12:31] Because everyone's going, well, I liked reporting straight to John.

[00:12:34] Or, well, maybe I had issues with it, but I don't like this new person I'm having to report.

[00:12:38] Whatever.

[00:12:39] Right.

[00:12:39] It's change.

[00:12:40] No one likes change.

[00:12:41] And they certainly don't like change that's foisted on them by like, hey, you now have a new boss.

[00:12:46] Yeah.

[00:12:46] That's very disruptive.

[00:12:48] Yeah.

[00:12:48] So we went through a lot over the next couple years trying to make everybody adjust to that and figure that out.

[00:12:56] I'm still trying to get past 45 direct reports.

[00:12:58] Like, that sucked.

[00:12:59] I mean, I jokingly called it, I had an open door policy, which means basically I didn't do any real managerial work.

[00:13:09] But, you know, you could see me in there.

[00:13:11] You could, you know, go and look in my open door and come in there.

[00:13:15] But, yeah, it was, I did my best.

[00:13:19] I tried really hard.

[00:13:20] But I was doing all of the recruiting, the hiring, the onboarding, and equipping everybody, too.

[00:13:27] So it was a rough time.

[00:13:29] I didn't sleep much.

[00:13:30] Yeah, I would imagine.

[00:13:31] I can get by on very little sleep.

[00:13:33] But I had more all-nighters.

[00:13:37] And, you know, oh, wow, it's only 2 a.m.

[00:13:39] I get to go to sleep now that year.

[00:13:42] And that was also the year my second son got born.

[00:13:44] It was nuts.

[00:13:46] Wow.

[00:13:46] That was the hardest year of my life.

[00:13:48] Yeah.

[00:13:48] Never again.

[00:13:49] I can't imagine.

[00:13:50] Yeah.

[00:13:51] Yeah.

[00:13:51] So what's different now?

[00:13:55] Everything.

[00:13:56] Yeah.

[00:13:57] I mean, I learned a lot from that about, you know, and doing a risk assessment, both in

[00:14:02] terms of customer risk assessment, business risk assessment, and anticipating problems like

[00:14:09] that and getting ahead of them.

[00:14:11] Put simply, I mean, that was not a problem that crept up on me overnight.

[00:14:17] I knew that at some point I had to offload that intensive cardiac app that I was responsible

[00:14:28] for.

[00:14:28] I knew at some point when I was making, you know, when I had the 30th direct report, this

[00:14:33] was too much.

[00:14:34] Yeah.

[00:14:34] But I kept adding.

[00:14:36] I just didn't, I didn't ever feel like I had the agency to stop what I'm doing, even

[00:14:41] for just two hours, just two hours, and just think for a minute and say, am I on a good

[00:14:46] trajectory?

[00:14:47] And if I'm not, because you'll figure that out in a few minutes.

[00:14:50] If I'm not, is there anything I can do today or this week or next week to change that?

[00:14:55] And I just didn't, I didn't take any opportunity to have intentionality.

[00:15:01] I just kept letting the days and letting the weeks just happen to me.

[00:15:05] Wow.

[00:15:07] I think it was ignorance, just flat, flat out ignorant.

[00:15:10] I didn't, I didn't, um, I don't, maybe some of it is a lot of people who get into IT, they're

[00:15:18] a bit of a workaholic.

[00:15:19] They've got, they equate putting in the hours as like, that's, that's how you prove your

[00:15:25] worth.

[00:15:25] Cause, cause a lot of us are judged by time tracking.

[00:15:28] And, uh, so if you come up from a field tech on up, um, so we take pride in those weeks

[00:15:34] where we, we really ground it out and, and gridded it out.

[00:15:38] Um, so I think I had some of that that's in the mix.

[00:15:41] Uh, the ethos took pride in that.

[00:15:45] And some of it is just, honestly, um, I think none of us have any business training.

[00:15:52] I mean, maybe, maybe there's a, there's a, I shouldn't say none of us.

[00:15:55] There's some minority out there that did get classic business training, but most of us,

[00:16:00] it is actually arrogance, hubris, um, accidental, you know, here we are in this situation.

[00:16:07] And, um, and whereas if we had had a moment of really interacting with other peers who are

[00:16:14] getting into business or thinking about this as a business, we would, we just have a plan.

[00:16:19] We would, we would do risk assessments.

[00:16:21] We would make different decisions.

[00:16:22] And, um, so yeah, it's a combination of that propulsion that I had from the work ethic

[00:16:28] and, um, combined with no resistance because I was ignorant.

[00:16:32] I didn't know I was hurtling towards disaster.

[00:16:35] Yeah.

[00:16:36] Yeah.

[00:16:36] Yeah.

[00:16:36] Those are the two main things.

[00:16:38] It's a great example where a good work ethic is a great asset, but maybe it was a less work.

[00:16:44] I think you, the alarms would have gone off sooner.

[00:16:46] Well, I heard a, heard a story about, uh, Michael Jordan.

[00:16:49] They wouldn't let him work out with some people because he would injure himself because his

[00:16:53] competitive nature was so intense that he would, he would put enough weight on whatever

[00:16:59] it was to just try to, you know, beat them by 10 pounds, even though, you know, he's up

[00:17:04] against people who are just structurally built to take more, take on more weight, but he would

[00:17:09] do it anyway.

[00:17:10] He would injure himself because he was so competitive.

[00:17:12] So I think in some ways, some of us have too much of an, of a willingness to work past six,

[00:17:18] to work on weekends, work on nights.

[00:17:21] Um, some of the folks here at GroCom are talking about that, that tendency that we all

[00:17:26] have to, to really work hard because we're doing it on behalf of the businesses that we

[00:17:30] support.

[00:17:30] We care a lot, but in coupled in that, we forget about ourselves, self-care.

[00:17:35] We forget about the loved ones that were missing out, um, on, on us and our attention.

[00:17:41] And, um, and so we lose sight.

[00:17:43] We, we, we get a little, we almost go too native if you will with the customers we're

[00:17:49] supporting.

[00:17:50] We forget that we're not servicing them well when we are so burned out.

[00:17:55] We're not, we're not able to really do that deep thinking.

[00:17:58] And, um, and we aren't, we aren't making sure that we're not going to like drop dead at

[00:18:03] our desk one day.

[00:18:04] Yeah.

[00:18:04] So no, that really speaks to me because I feel like as an MSP myself and most of the

[00:18:09] MSPs I've met, it's like, there's some, somebody said earlier, there's always the charlatan

[00:18:15] on the fringes that's, you know, just that gives the MSP the bad name or something.

[00:18:19] But by and large, I think most MSPs would give the shirt off their back and they're self

[00:18:26] sacrificial.

[00:18:27] And while that is good in certain scenarios, it's just like, wow, we really don't prioritize,

[00:18:32] like you said, self care.

[00:18:33] And I think that can manifest into, we're not taking care of our team.

[00:18:38] We're not taking care of ourselves.

[00:18:40] Yeah.

[00:18:40] And ultimately we're not taking care of the client that we think we're trying to, you

[00:18:44] know, sacrifice for.

[00:18:45] Right.

[00:18:46] Yeah.

[00:18:46] And I'm not talking about self care where you go get a, you know, I don't know, a hot

[00:18:50] stone massage, whatever treatment at a spa.

[00:18:53] I mean, I'm talking about a normal night's rest.

[00:18:56] Yeah.

[00:18:56] Eating lunch sometime between, you know, noon and 2 PM.

[00:19:01] Yeah.

[00:19:02] You know, shocking.

[00:19:03] Those things were like crazy.

[00:19:04] I mean, I can't tell you how many times it was just like, oh, it's four o'clock.

[00:19:08] It's no lunch today.

[00:19:09] And then, then it's eight o'clock.

[00:19:10] And I'm like, oh yeah, I guess no dinner either.

[00:19:12] You know, like it's crazy.

[00:19:14] Yeah.

[00:19:14] Yeah.

[00:19:15] Yeah.

[00:19:17] It's just, it's strange that the, the things that we just sometimes just don't, we just

[00:19:23] accept as normal because it's become normalized.

[00:19:26] But when you're the owner, you are in control of these decisions and you really, you have

[00:19:32] more control than you think.

[00:19:34] Yeah.

[00:19:34] And we trick ourselves to thinking that we don't, we don't have control.

[00:19:37] We're just, we're, we're just paddling on this mighty river and there's no choice but

[00:19:41] to keep paddling.

[00:19:42] And it's like, actually, if you're on this mighty river, your paddle is probably not doing

[00:19:46] that much anyway.

[00:19:47] You know, maybe you can take stock of what's in the boat and figure out if you're on the

[00:19:50] right spot of the boat or take, take the lay of the land.

[00:19:53] I mean, there's a lot of things you can do other than just paddle harder.

[00:19:57] Yeah.

[00:19:57] So.

[00:19:59] What caused you?

[00:20:00] What, what, what was the driver that made you say, I can't work 24 seven or have 40 something

[00:20:07] reports?

[00:20:09] Um, I mean, I think.

[00:20:12] So my wife's very supportive and, and she, she kept asking me questions like, why are you

[00:20:18] growing?

[00:20:18] Why do you want to grow this business?

[00:20:20] It just seems like the more you grow, the more problems you have.

[00:20:23] Yes.

[00:20:23] Um, and she didn't realize that was really good counsel because it, because that the why

[00:20:29] question makes you go, well, why am I doing it?

[00:20:32] And, and so I, I, I think off the cuff, but it became more and more real.

[00:20:37] I said, well, I'm growing so that I don't have to work this hard because there is this tipping

[00:20:41] point that I could see if you can just grow to this point where you can hire the right

[00:20:47] people and you have enough money to work with to hire the right people and retain them.

[00:20:53] And then I can differentiate and delegate tasks to others.

[00:20:59] I can share the burden because there are other people who also want that opportunity to,

[00:21:03] to step up and, and have their ideas, um, play out and see, and see if like, okay, if I do

[00:21:09] these things and I work and organize this team around automation or, you know, pick, pick

[00:21:14] whatever it is, then, Hey, look, we can, we can do something.

[00:21:17] And I can, I can say, I made that come about.

[00:21:19] And that's a, that's a wonderful feeling.

[00:21:22] And, and when you grow, you, you do have the opportunity within your organization to spread

[00:21:26] that wonderful feeling across other people who want it.

[00:21:29] Not everybody wants it.

[00:21:30] Some folks genuinely just want to, they want a good paying job and they want to have enough

[00:21:35] free brain space left over at the end of the day to go do something else that they enjoy.

[00:21:39] That's great.

[00:21:39] But you do find in small businesses, there are a lot of folks who they wear many hats and

[00:21:46] it gives them opportunities to seek connections and patterns.

[00:21:49] And they want to, they, they have ideas that, that stem from that about how to influence

[00:21:54] outcomes better.

[00:21:55] And, and so you, you, you know, there are a lot of people who really do want that opportunity.

[00:21:59] And so, so, you know, talking to my wife about it, I was, it was making me become, come more

[00:22:05] and more in touch with the fact that I'm growing to get to the point where I really can back

[00:22:11] off and not because I'm, I'm suddenly found my inner laziness, but I've, I've found that

[00:22:17] I can create space for someone else to, to grow.

[00:22:21] It's kind of like, um, you know, like a big tree in a forest.

[00:22:23] Like there's, there's some benefits sometimes when a limb falls off of it because it opens

[00:22:28] up a new slot of sunlight that can come in and the undergrowth has an opportunity to,

[00:22:33] to grow.

[00:22:34] Yeah.

[00:22:34] So.

[00:22:35] Interesting.

[00:22:36] The wife asking the why question.

[00:22:38] She asked great questions.

[00:22:40] Yeah.

[00:22:41] Yeah.

[00:22:41] Yeah.

[00:22:42] I'm often annoyed by the why questions my wife asks and because they're good ones.

[00:22:46] Oh, I'm, I, I won't, I don't want to try to say that I, I, I handled it well emotionally,

[00:22:51] but they were great questions.

[00:22:52] They put me down a good path.

[00:22:54] Yeah.

[00:22:54] Yeah.

[00:22:55] So how do you go from a business that I won't put words in your mouth, but you might've built

[00:23:04] to that you didn't, that built, you might've been building business that you wouldn't love

[00:23:09] to building something that you are scaling, but that you actually want to show up for.

[00:23:15] Oh yeah.

[00:23:16] Well, that's probably worth talking about a, a little thing that happened in the organization

[00:23:22] that I built, I nourished, and I did not love.

[00:23:25] I didn't love almost any part of the whole journey.

[00:23:28] And, um, so I can't name any names or anything with this and I probably wouldn't anyway, even

[00:23:33] if I could.

[00:23:34] Um, but I had a, I had a good friend that worked with me for, for probably about 12, 15 years

[00:23:42] and had an idea for something that could, could become like a really neat arm of our business.

[00:23:50] Um, I agree with the idea.

[00:23:52] We formalized it and around 2015 started really growing that side of the business.

[00:23:58] So that part of the business, and it was, it was contained within NetFriends as a whole,

[00:24:02] but it flourished and it grew to a pretty substantial part of our business.

[00:24:06] Um, over 20% of our, of our business.

[00:24:09] Um, but what happened was is unlike me selecting Neelish as a partner, I ended up having this

[00:24:17] employee slash friend now as a business partner with a very different vision.

[00:24:22] Um, I remember having a conversation with, with this person about how I felt like he and

[00:24:29] I had both purchased one half of a hill on this beautiful landscape, but my vision was

[00:24:35] to put a vineyard on that hill.

[00:24:38] And his vision was put a huge apartment building on it, both viable, like ways to utilize the

[00:24:43] space, but together I felt like my vineyard would make his apartment sell more, but he

[00:24:51] would not help my vineyard sell more like what he was building.

[00:24:55] And, and, um, and so ultimately, um, the end of 2023, that, that whole business tore down

[00:25:03] in, in a hurry.

[00:25:04] Um, and, um, as, as hard as it was to see that fall apart and, um, and that vision kind

[00:25:14] of implode, it was a huge relief because I, it had been a source of, I think mutual

[00:25:21] unhappiness.

[00:25:22] Cause, cause it's honestly like both of us were preventing anything from being built on

[00:25:26] that beautiful hill because of, uh, cause we had a vision conflict and, um, yeah.

[00:25:32] So that, that's like a, an example of a, of a, a whole lot of missed opportunity because

[00:25:39] I was so caught up in all the, the tug of war that I was having with this individual and

[00:25:45] that business was growing, but it was kind of growing despite both of us.

[00:25:49] And it, it had gotten to be, um, I think a mutual problem that ultimately got, um, you

[00:25:55] know, yeah, just blew up.

[00:25:57] Um, I know I'm being kind of cagey and all that, but I'm, I think trying to get back to

[00:26:03] what you're saying is like, not, not everything that happens, uh, every idea or every opportunity

[00:26:09] should flourish, especially if it pulls you away from what you feel is your vision or

[00:26:14] what you feel your primary business model is.

[00:26:17] Um, when I heard the term primary business model, um, this is a little bit of a digression,

[00:26:23] but it's, it's, it's worth going into.

[00:26:25] Um, so a lot of folks who are probably listening to this podcast know about service leadership

[00:26:30] and they know about sleek their, their little, um, operational maturity model that they have.

[00:26:38] When you first go into service leadership and you sign up, you do a quiz.

[00:26:44] Um, and it's a pretty short quiz.

[00:26:46] I don't know if it's like 30 minutes.

[00:26:48] It's, it's very short, but the purpose of the quiz is to figure out your primary business

[00:26:52] model.

[00:26:53] You know, are you a value added reseller?

[00:26:55] Are you a managed services for infrastructure?

[00:26:57] Are you a project based group?

[00:26:59] Are you a consultancy?

[00:27:00] I mean, there's a lot of different ways you can approach technology services.

[00:27:05] And when I filled out this quiz and, you know, did a little thing, you know, I was like,

[00:27:09] okay.

[00:27:10] And I was like, okay, I'm, I'm actually curious.

[00:27:11] What is it going to tell me my primary business model is?

[00:27:14] Right.

[00:27:14] And a message popped up that said, you need to call this number.

[00:27:17] And I was like, well, that can't be good.

[00:27:20] Yeah.

[00:27:21] Um, cause, and it said, and you read a little bit more of it and it's like, yeah, less than

[00:27:25] 2% of the people get this message.

[00:27:27] You really need to call this number and talk to somebody at service leadership.

[00:27:30] And I was like, wow.

[00:27:32] Okay.

[00:27:32] So I didn't hesitate, call the number.

[00:27:34] Um, and I think a guy named Brian picked up and he was like, oh yeah.

[00:27:38] Okay.

[00:27:39] Yeah.

[00:27:39] I see your results here.

[00:27:40] Yeah.

[00:27:41] You are basically five businesses in one.

[00:27:43] You need to pick a side, man.

[00:27:45] He's like, you are, you're a hot, he didn't say you're a hot mess, but he said I was a hot

[00:27:49] mess.

[00:27:50] It's just the muddle.

[00:27:51] He's like, you know, it's unclear what you are.

[00:27:53] So what do you want to be?

[00:27:54] He's like, you probably want to be a man of services.

[00:27:56] It's the most profitable.

[00:27:57] It's one of the most people want to be.

[00:27:58] And I was like, yeah, that's what I do want to be.

[00:28:01] He's like, well, you better get to it.

[00:28:02] You either need to shed all the other stuff, fold it in, cross sell.

[00:28:06] You need to do something different.

[00:28:08] Wow.

[00:28:09] He's like, but you definitely need our services.

[00:28:11] I'm glad you signed up.

[00:28:12] But yeah.

[00:28:13] So anyway, a little bit of a digression there.

[00:28:16] No, I love that.

[00:28:17] So what did that, what changed after that for you?

[00:28:21] Several things changed after that.

[00:28:24] I can't remember if it happened either like right around the same time directly related,

[00:28:30] but I brought in our very first outside management consultant to do one of those 360 reviews.

[00:28:40] And so that's also a series of surveys, quizzes, et cetera, to just try to figure out, you know,

[00:28:46] where are your strengths and weaknesses?

[00:28:47] And you get a little bit of coaching around with that.

[00:28:51] And the business coach, Tony, that we had come in, he had his final interview with me, his final talk with me.

[00:28:59] And at the end of that engagement, and he said, you know, you really need, you need to check out traction.

[00:29:05] You need to check out entrepreneurial operating system.

[00:29:08] Right.

[00:29:08] And he's like, I think, bless you.

[00:29:10] He's like, he's like, I think you'll really benefit from, you know, an operating system.

[00:29:16] He's like, your business is fairly confused.

[00:29:20] He's like, you got a lot of good people.

[00:29:22] Everyone seems nice.

[00:29:23] They like the culture, but no one really knows what's going on.

[00:29:26] And so you can kind of see the reluctant visionary vibe that I kind of, this mantle I took on around that time was this realization that I'd been in this role as a vision.

[00:29:38] I was supposed to be the visionary, but I was reluctant in it.

[00:29:41] I wanted to do ops.

[00:29:42] For some reason, I thought ops was, again, it goes back to that work ethic thing.

[00:29:46] It's like, oh, but that's my origin.

[00:29:48] That's who I am.

[00:29:49] But I had to adapt and change.

[00:29:51] And I also had to bring the whole business into a new mode of operating.

[00:29:56] That combined with a primary business model is confused.

[00:30:00] You can just see, like, I don't know.

[00:30:02] I just had not really done anything with this need to have a vision set, even though it was the reason I wanted to be an owner was there was no vision.

[00:30:13] But I had, for various reasons, just not gotten around to setting a cohesive vision for the business.

[00:30:19] It was very strange.

[00:30:21] You know, you can't tell everyone our vision is to profit.

[00:30:24] Right.

[00:30:25] You know, our vision is, you know, to make payroll.

[00:30:30] To make payroll.

[00:30:31] Yeah.

[00:30:31] Yeah.

[00:30:31] It's not a compelling vision.

[00:30:33] No.

[00:30:34] No.

[00:30:34] So.

[00:30:35] Well, you bought it for that reason, vision.

[00:30:39] You've been kind of challenged to create vision.

[00:30:42] So can you share what your vision is now?

[00:30:44] So what we want as a, I mean, I really need to get this down to the 30 second elevator pitch, but we want to be the best MSP.

[00:30:53] But we want to be the best MSP in the eyes of our customers.

[00:30:57] So they feel like they get this seamless experience working with us.

[00:31:01] We want to be the best MSP in the eyes of all of our people that work with us.

[00:31:05] So they really feel like there's career path.

[00:31:07] You know, coming in and being part of NetFriends is one of the best things that ever happened to my career, whether they're with us or not.

[00:31:17] And combined in all that are all these different ways to try to bring about that sense that we're the best.

[00:31:26] So the customer feels like, wow, there's no reason to go back and question the decision.

[00:31:31] These guys are amazing.

[00:31:32] They're not just pleasant to work with, but they're the experts I need.

[00:31:37] They're patient.

[00:31:38] They pace with me.

[00:31:39] They push me, but they don't push me to the point where I'm out of my comfort zone, to the, you know, where I'm agitated.

[00:31:46] But if they do push me, I know that this means something.

[00:31:51] And with our folks, same thing.

[00:31:53] They feel like coming into work every day, coming to work with a team of people that are supportive and that they know have their backs.

[00:32:02] The whole company has their growth in mind.

[00:32:04] And we've come up with so many little innovative ideas to allow even a level one, you know, tier one technician to feel like they have multiple avenues of career advancement that does not require them to no longer be a tier one technician.

[00:32:20] Because some folks do really love that.

[00:32:22] It's almost like retail, you know, when the customers are coming in, it's just ching, ching, ching.

[00:32:26] And then the day's done.

[00:32:28] You know, there's some folks find that that is the perfect job.

[00:32:33] And we want those people who feel that to also feel like they have lots of room to grow and get promoted and move within that role.

[00:32:41] So I probably am wandering at this point, but I just want to be the best MSP from any angle, any lens.

[00:32:47] And I don't think that's not something that, one, you achieve overnight.

[00:32:53] It's also not something that once you've achieved it, feet up on the desk, you're done.

[00:32:57] You have to keep innovating and keep working on that.

[00:33:00] So does that pass muster for you as a vision or do you look for something else?

[00:33:07] No, I think that helps me.

[00:33:08] I'm curious what does best mean?

[00:33:10] Ah, well, that's why I was trying to unpack that with the customer and the employee perception.

[00:33:17] But I'll keep working on it if that didn't land.

[00:33:21] I guess just to double click on that, like best quality, cheapest price, something else.

[00:33:32] Yeah.

[00:33:32] So, you know, when you buy something, let's say it's the jacket you have or it can be a larger purchase like a vehicle, but it's your go-to.

[00:33:45] It's the one where I remember Eric Simpson said this when I complimented him on a jacket he wore.

[00:33:51] He was like, ah, it's my speaking jacket.

[00:33:53] You know, it's the one that when he puts it on, he's his best self.

[00:33:57] He, he, who he is, what he wants to convey just pops forward and, and becomes part of the natural flow.

[00:34:07] So it could be that I'm just really comfortable with that term best, but it's like what brings out your best?

[00:34:12] What's the thing that you feel is the best thing in your closet or, you know, things like that.

[00:34:18] So, um, I, I see that term best as, as the thing that just comes to mind is like your personal ideal for whatever that thing is, you know, um, that makes you, makes you feel like you're, you're the happiest and, and the most, uh, the best version of yourself when you have it, either you're wearing it or you it's in your possession or just when you think about it.

[00:34:41] Yeah. So that's what best means for me. And like, I think if you think through your, if I had, you know, named various things and, uh, asked, you know, what's the best thing you currently have?

[00:34:52] What's the best thing you've ever had within that category? You know, something would come to mind and it'd be a single singular thing and you'd have a little bit of a story or a narrative wrapped around it.

[00:35:01] Yeah. So that makes sense. So, so you've come a long way from forward of over 40 employees, but more, I think, interestingly, it sounds like the depth of vision, the, the operational maturity for lack of a better way of framing. It sounds like night and day, night and day difference. Yeah. What advice would you give to yourself a decade ago?

[00:35:29] Hmm. Well, I think I would actually recommend that I work on marketing and sales a lot earlier. I didn't even start working on marketing until 2016. Neelish, my partner didn't start really building a sales program until 2018, late 2018. And the reason why I say that is not because of how important they are to your growth, et cetera. Marketing clarifies your messaging. Marketing clarifies your differentiators.

[00:35:58] It clarifies like, why do you exist? What if you were wiped off, you know, like you, if you were just absorbed by some other group and they just got rid of all traces that you ever existed, would that matter? Would anyone care? And if the answer to that is no, then you have work to do. And, and so marketing helps get the messaging, right?

[00:36:18] Sales helps you really test the art of, of, of, you know, taking that messaging in a place where you really, you know, you're, you're working with strangers, you're working with people that actually may be even a little adversarial, you know, like what's the, what's the catch, what's the gimmick, et cetera.

[00:36:37] And so if your messaging works in sales, it really works. So I don't think I've, I've, I'm very, very young and trying to work out marketing and sales, even though I've got an amazing team, um, amazing marketing team, amazing sales team.

[00:36:54] But, um, gosh, I wish, I wish this team had formed, you know, 10 years earlier because they would have helped me work through this because a really good marketing and a really good sales team keeps giving you feedback because they keep testing it and they keep getting feedback from the market about whether this works or doesn't.

[00:37:14] And, um, we have, uh, we have, uh, we have ways of kind of convincing ourselves, you know, that we're, we're great or we just really crush that. Um, and the market is, uh, much more brutal and, and yet honest. And you need that to be your best self. And, um, so that's what I would do. I would go back. And so it's not just for the profit, not just for the growth, but for the clarity that those things bring.

[00:37:40] Yes. So it's good, good forcing function, right. To get that clarity. That's right. And, uh, you realize you can't say we have the best support and stop there because everybody says that. Everybody says that exactly. Uh, what's, um, what's one thing that you reflect back and say, you know, to anybody listening, like pay attention to this. This is something I learned along the way that I wish I would have picked up on sooner.

[00:38:10] Hmm. Focus. You, and you know, you hear these little cliches, you know, if you have a list of 20 priorities, you have no priorities, things like that. And it's so true. I mean, if you can just pick one thing, um, so I found that like, if I can just do one thing on a particular day, it's a great day. And I celebrate that, that I did the thing that day. Um, it's super rare to have two or three major wins in any given day.

[00:38:36] Yeah. So just focus on a single, single win. A lot of times you have a lot of meetings you go to, but really there's only one meeting. If you really prep for it and you have a lot of intentionality, it would be a great meeting with real mover and shaker. And people look back like a month later and go, man, that meeting, things changed. You know, you can't usually have two or three of those in a day. You can't, you certainly can't stack them. So you have 15 in a week. That's, it's just not as common.

[00:39:04] So you just, just focus on a single thing, really think hard about it. Even if you have to think all morning long, what is that thing? Do it, take the time. Um, cause it's probably the best way you can spend the whole day versus a little bit of nothing all day long. So focus. And it's a daily thing. Yeah. Nobody gets excited saying I got all my emails replied to or something like that.

[00:39:29] If they do, well, let's just assume it was the biggest pile of emails and it actually was a thing and good for you. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, what's the, you're probably very different now, but what's the biggest challenge you're facing?

[00:39:44] Biggest challenge. I mean, one of the reasons I'm here at Grocon is cause, uh, leads, um, we want, I mean, if that's too mundane, I can go more lofty, but I think a lot of every MSP I talk to, the real challenge is getting more times at bat.

[00:40:00] Yeah. And, um, you know, going back to that 10, if I could look back 10 years, I, I want more times to test the message, more times to test our sales process and try to get better and better at it, at landing at shortening the sales cycle or, um, really having that, you know, okay, we, we have a close loss, you know, event, but let's get the feedback from that customer and find out what made them not choose us or what made them choose someone else.

[00:40:30] And learn from that. Um, I, I want to accelerate that cycle, uh, you know, celebrating the wins and analyzing how did we win that? And also analyzing the losses and, um, cause each one of those is a teachable moment. Right. So more leads puts me in that, you know, on that path to getting those answers quicker and more thoroughly.

[00:40:50] Hmm. I think you hit on something that some is often misunderstood, which is yes. Leads could equal more business if you close them. Right. There's that sort of thing. But I think people miss the fact that you need the at bats to test the message, to test the clarity. I don't care who you are. You're just not going to show up and have it nailed. And, and, and therefore, I think we also miss the fact that some of the leads and at bats are really just practice. Yeah.

[00:41:19] And we don't, we don't talk, we don't use that language. We, you know, every, every leads vital. I got to close X percent of all the deals period.

[00:41:26] They become less vital when there are more of them. Yeah. Yeah. If, you know, if you're in that, uh, you've seen Rudy, right. Where it's like you're in that one game, you're finally put in the one game. It's a big deal when you finally get the ball. But, um, but if you have lots of opportunities, then there's always the next play and you, you know, uh, you could get hit pretty hard and you have to pick yourself up, but, um, you still, it's a, it's a total different mindset when you feel this confidence that there'll be another opportunity tomorrow.

[00:41:55] You know, even if you flub this or someone just, just really socks you with a few fantastic questions you were not prepared for. Um, cause sometimes you lose simply because you didn't know to prepare in that way. So that happens too.

[00:42:09] Yeah. John, you've clearly learned a lot of lessons that I think would be super valuable to a lot of MSPs. Is there anything that for anybody listening that you would give in terms of, Hey, if you're going through this or if you're wondering about this, reach out to me. Is there any, any give that you would, uh, any gift that you would give?

[00:42:31] Yeah, absolutely. Um, I mean, I love talking to other MSPs. I mean, they're, they're my peers. They, they, they, they know so much about this journey that is so hard to convey to someone who's outside of, of, of our walk. Um, and a lot of them don't have what I have with a super supportive spouse and a super supportive partner. Like I have with Nealish that is super, that's so rare. And so a lot of them are alone or feel alone. And, um, yeah, I would, I would open up and connect with anybody.

[00:43:00] I mean, a lot of times I find that, um, you know, as, as male going into my forties, we're actually shedding friends, not adding friends. And, uh, it's yeah. I, friendships start by somebody, you know, being vulnerable and, and, you know, making a connection and we build from there. So yeah. So I could, I could offer, you know, budding friendship or partnership or just someone else who understands the journey and can commiserate even if, you know, I won't problem solve unless you ask me to.

[00:43:29] Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I can just nod and say, yeah, I know, I know.

[00:43:34] I think it's valuable that you said I'll give my knowledge or I'll help you.

[00:43:39] But I think too many people miss the fact that just commiserating or perhaps even building a budding friendship is even more valuable.

[00:43:45] I think because it's easy to miss those nuances and no matter what your age, but especially in forties and after it's like, you're, you're working, you're taking your kids to something like you're not, you're not in a space to make new friendships.

[00:43:58] And, uh, the other thing I found interviewing so many top MSPs is the, the higher you climb, the thinner the air. And by that, I mean, there's just less peers that can commiserate.

[00:44:09] Yeah. And, and sometimes just talking to a peer where, you know, you don't have to explain a lot. It allows you to have a fairly uncluttered discussion. The answer's in your head.

[00:44:19] Yeah. It's just, it's just cluttered and you just need a moment to get your own thoughts sorted. Um, so I find that like when I talked to Neil, I sure he talks to me about a problem. He, he's got the answer. I have the answer, but we just needed to talk through it. You know, with someone who wasn't going to interrupt in inopportune times or, you know, ask a question where you're like, oh man, you just don't get it. Yeah. Okay. He, you don't, you don't understand, which is very, it takes you out of that mode of trying to solve the problem. And then you're just annoyed, you know?

[00:44:48] Yeah. So, well, let me flip this around from give to ask. Is there one thing that you would ask for anybody listening? Say, man, I would love your advice. I'd love your help. Reach out to me on this.

[00:45:00] Um, yeah, I mean, a couple of things, I guess hyper specific would be, um, be really interested if someone had a story about a particular vertical that they went after, um, that, or, or that they supported that went really great or really poorly.

[00:45:18] Most likely I'd hear from the folks that are like avoid these groups, you know, no matter what, they're terrible. Um, and then I guess more generally, um, I'm always interested in someone who has a really great idea about how to make a fantastic recruitment or onboarding experience, um, for, for new hires. Um, I just have a deep passion in my heart for, for folks who are just starting that journey. Um, even if they've been at another MSP and worked at another MSP,

[00:45:48] I love folks who are, are, you know, just have all the freshness, all the potentialality is there. And that's so super exciting. And so anyone who has any cool ideas with that, I love hearing about that.

[00:45:59] Yeah. I love that very specific, but I love that because I think that actually is more likely to make somebody lean forward and go, Ooh, that's me. You know, I could help with that. Um, and it's one of the things I love about the gift that you just gave.

[00:46:12] And, and that kind of our industry is a lot of people are willing to open up and actually be vulnerable, but also give that help.

[00:46:20] Yeah. Yeah. We're, we're all competing with each other, but we also can all win at the same time. So.

[00:46:26] Yeah. Well, I would love to do this all day, but I won't take up all your time while we're at Grocon. John, thank you so much for making time during your busy schedule to be on MSP mindset at Grocon.

[00:46:37] Thanks for the opportunity, Damian. Appreciate it. Absolutely.