Meet The MSP Who Understands Hackers + How He Got Here, with Sergey Poltev (MSP Titan #16)

[00:00:00] In Russia, learning hacking, it was actually a good thing. They had magazines, like you can buy a magazine, like a PC magazine in North America. In Russia, there was a magazine called Hacker. It's still around. It's been 25 years in the making. It's a monthly magazine, and each magazine covers one important topic. For example, how to hack a Skype, I remember, how to intersect the SMS signals. And it was completely legal to read them and get them.

[00:00:25] I remember all I needed was just to go to public library, and I can read everything as a teenager.

[00:00:35] Hey guys, Damien Stevens, host of MSP Mindset, CEO of Servosity. Today, I continue my mission to interview 100 of the fastest growing and most interesting MSPs on the planet.

[00:00:47] Today, I am joined by Sergey Poltev. Now, he learned how to speak English by watching the same five VHS tapes over and over again.

[00:00:58] Ended up building his first business in Russia, only to be threatened with a baseball bat by the Russian mafia.

[00:01:07] He fled to Canada and ended up with $500 in his pocket, no contacts, and very little English.

[00:01:16] If you want to learn how he has built one of the titans in Canada and is expanding into the U.S., don't miss out on our conversation today.

[00:01:26] Sergey, you have a really interesting kind of origin story. Tell me about how you even came to be interested in technology.

[00:01:35] Sure, absolutely. When I was growing up in Russia, actually, in a poor town, in a small town in Russia, we didn't have internet back then.

[00:01:48] Computers just started arriving. I was only seeing them in the newspapers, per se.

[00:01:58] So, this was in the early 90s. I was about 10 years old and my father passed away in a car accident.

[00:02:07] And I was kind of a closed kid because of that and didn't speak much.

[00:02:13] Now, but I was interested in computers. I was looking into them on paper.

[00:02:19] My mom kind of noticed that and decided to save money to get me a computer.

[00:02:24] So, after about two years, I got my first computer. It was Windows 95.

[00:02:28] And I believe I went to school.

[00:02:31] Over the school, we went to a public library and they showed us computers in physical form, not on the paper yet.

[00:02:40] And that's where I really started, you know, really digging myself into it.

[00:02:48] And that's back when computers were a fortune.

[00:02:50] Yeah, it was. And that's why it took my mom forever to save money for it.

[00:02:56] Now, when I finally got my computer, I remember, you know, the man came in to set it up for me,

[00:03:04] which probably were like early break-fix kind of company.

[00:03:08] They came to our house to set up the computer for me.

[00:03:12] And that, yeah, that was a magical day for me.

[00:03:15] It was like, wow, I got my first computer.

[00:03:16] So, but the thing is, after about two weeks, I was playing around with this computer.

[00:03:25] We wanted to actually upgrade the computer.

[00:03:27] I wanted to make it faster.

[00:03:28] So, I remember we tried to get processor, replace the processor, and it completely blew off the motherboard.

[00:03:36] And the computer just completely died.

[00:03:41] And that was interesting because, again, it was, like you said, it was a fortune.

[00:03:46] And then I went to my mom and she says, well, I don't know what to do now.

[00:03:49] I'm just, it's done.

[00:03:51] It's computer's gone.

[00:03:52] She says, what do you mean?

[00:03:55] Well, again, this is how I learned, right?

[00:03:57] We didn't have any courses or anything, like just the kids trying to do a couple of things, right?

[00:04:01] So, anyway, and so she says, no, you have to learn how to fix the computers now.

[00:04:06] You have to go and do it on your own and go to market.

[00:04:10] And I knew that in order to get spare computer parts, you have to go to a radio market, we call it, where you can go.

[00:04:18] And there was a vendors, like, you know how you can go on a market and buy vegetables.

[00:04:24] We had this radio market where you would, you know, find, you know, used motherboard, processor, et cetera.

[00:04:33] And that's where I went and saw, oh, wow, this computer, I need to have these parts, I was told, you know, and they costed that amount of X amount of rubles, you know.

[00:04:45] And then, of course, I didn't have that much money.

[00:04:49] And my mom said, no, no, you're going to have to learn how to make your own money now.

[00:04:53] And that's how I got really pushed into IT because what ended up happening is I found my first job on that market.

[00:05:03] And somebody was selling, well, CDs and DVDs at that time, you know, actually CDs.

[00:05:09] And you could buy CDs on that market right next to the motherboards and processors.

[00:05:16] There's a lot of CDs, right?

[00:05:17] And these vendors were selling CDs.

[00:05:20] And now I didn't know that these CDs were illegal.

[00:05:25] Like, they were, like, pirated.

[00:05:26] It was a pirated – all the more pirated you could buy, like, one CD with all Adobe products and, you know.

[00:05:35] And I don't know how it was in North America because I was not there.

[00:05:39] In Russia, it was normal to buy those CDs.

[00:05:43] And it was amazing.

[00:05:45] Like, it was a whole world of software in this market.

[00:05:49] And anyway, just long story short, I was approached by a vendor.

[00:05:54] It says, hey, kid, you know how to – you're interested in this?

[00:05:58] I'm looking for – I can hire you to sell this stuff if it looks like you know the software.

[00:06:04] And I was, like – I knew exactly what I was looking for.

[00:06:07] So they offered me a job.

[00:06:10] So I started working in the market to earn enough so I can get my motherboard and processor.

[00:06:18] And, yeah.

[00:06:19] And then, yeah, I worked like this while I was at school.

[00:06:23] I was – and my mom didn't know much.

[00:06:27] She thought, well, I'm doing something else good.

[00:06:29] I'm making some money.

[00:06:29] I was saving some money.

[00:06:30] And then one day, police came in at night, you know, and put me and a couple of other guys in the police car.

[00:06:41] So we were, like, super – we didn't know what's going on, right?

[00:06:46] And as it turned out, it was actually a normal thing because police comes over and says, here, this is all illegal.

[00:06:53] You have to pay us a bribe, you know.

[00:06:56] And I didn't know about that.

[00:06:58] But then after two – almost two hours, we were in that police car and they let us go.

[00:07:02] And as it turned out, the boss came in and bailed us out, you know.

[00:07:05] Wouldn't it be nice that your boss bails you out?

[00:07:09] Anyway, so –

[00:07:10] Yeah.

[00:07:11] And then it turned out to be a regular occurrence.

[00:07:14] Every couple of weeks, police showed up and, you know.

[00:07:17] And it was normal.

[00:07:18] You just paid, you know.

[00:07:20] It's big corruption, you know, at that time.

[00:07:22] But anyway, so this is how I got into IT.

[00:07:25] I'm hoping it's not too long of a story.

[00:07:29] This episode is brought to you by Servosity.

[00:07:32] I started Servosity because I was an MSP that lost data because I thought backup success meant I could recover.

[00:07:40] And boy, was I wrong.

[00:07:42] If you've ever been there or anywhere close, you know how much your stomach turns over the thought of not being able to recover any version of the data for your client.

[00:07:52] Now, naively, I set off to build a better mousetrap and build a better backup product until finally I realized it's all about the people and the process.

[00:08:02] So you have a choice to make.

[00:08:04] Do nothing and bury your head in the sand or level up your processes.

[00:08:08] Now, you can do that by either hiring Servosity or we'll take all the workload of managing backups off of your plate and test your backups daily, weekly, monthly and quarterly.

[00:08:17] Or you can keep the tech stack you have in place, your existing backup into your provider and steal my 18 years of knowledge and download that process and add that to your operational maturity today.

[00:08:31] No, it's fascinating, right?

[00:08:33] Because I think, you know, in America, I think it's not that there's nobody that's corrupt.

[00:08:38] But I think of, you know, you go to the police station and then, you know, if you were a juvenile, they call your parents or something like, you know, and then it's really the parents thing or you pay a fine.

[00:08:48] But the constant, you know, bribe or whatever it is, is a different, it's a little different way of thinking about it.

[00:08:57] So, I guess it was the cost of doing business to your boss.

[00:09:00] Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[00:09:02] And I remember I was, and first I didn't know, I only saw the final product.

[00:09:07] But one day we came in to pick up new products.

[00:09:10] Like, the longer you work, the more responsibilities you get.

[00:09:13] You know, I go to his house and in his basement and the whole apartment was like a recording studio.

[00:09:20] He had like thousands of DVDs, like machines with 10 DVD-ROMs in it.

[00:09:26] And they're copying, making labels.

[00:09:29] So, it was a big production factory almost in the house, you know.

[00:09:34] So, yeah, it was fascinating.

[00:09:37] But what's interesting is I want to expand to the story because I made enough money at that time not just for to fix my original computer.

[00:09:48] I actually made enough money to build multiple computers and start my own business when I was still a teenager in Russia.

[00:09:59] And it was quite interesting as well.

[00:10:01] I covered a little bit about it in my book, but…

[00:10:04] So, what was your business?

[00:10:06] Internet cafe.

[00:10:07] So, we're in a small town and rural town.

[00:10:13] We had no internet there and not much computer salons.

[00:10:18] And it was still the beginning.

[00:10:20] Like, in a bigger city, like if you take a bus for an hour, you can get to the bigger city.

[00:10:27] This is where I went to university.

[00:10:28] But I grew up in a smaller town.

[00:10:31] So, I decided to open up Internet Cafe, like a gaming cafe, where kids would come and pay per hour to use the computer.

[00:10:43] Right?

[00:10:44] And first, we had no internet at all.

[00:10:47] And then I brought in DSL Line.

[00:10:48] That was amazing.

[00:10:50] And, yeah.

[00:10:52] So, yeah.

[00:10:53] I think we had about eight computers.

[00:10:56] So, I built them all from scratch.

[00:11:00] Again, I learned it all on my own.

[00:11:02] Yeah.

[00:11:03] How old were you?

[00:11:05] 18.

[00:11:06] 18 years old.

[00:11:06] 18 when you started in the cafe.

[00:11:08] Yeah, eight computers.

[00:11:09] Yeah.

[00:11:09] Eight computers.

[00:11:10] All white box.

[00:11:12] With pirated windows.

[00:11:15] I remember those days.

[00:11:16] Yeah.

[00:11:17] So, and, yeah.

[00:11:18] We were making money.

[00:11:19] And we actually did very good.

[00:11:20] I had two partners.

[00:11:22] 16, 17 years old.

[00:11:24] And because they couldn't buy law.

[00:11:26] So, you have to start a business when you turn 18.

[00:11:30] So, I was the owner on the business.

[00:11:32] And I had two guys.

[00:11:34] And they contributed their time.

[00:11:36] And one of them contributed the space.

[00:11:39] We were doing out of a garage.

[00:11:43] Like, it's not like a garage here with the door.

[00:11:46] It's more like an addition to the house.

[00:11:50] You know?

[00:11:51] So, and of course, when you get successful at this.

[00:11:55] Like, we were making good money.

[00:11:57] We even had three shifts.

[00:11:59] So, kids would come overnight and play computer games.

[00:12:02] Because we were so popular, right?

[00:12:04] And we were making good money.

[00:12:06] And all, and at that time, basically, Russian mafia came in one day and said, well, you have to pay.

[00:12:15] You have to pay us.

[00:12:16] And they call it a roof, like a cover.

[00:12:21] To cover us up from any problems.

[00:12:24] But we didn't have any problems.

[00:12:26] We had good enterprise.

[00:12:30] Anyway, so, they didn't like that.

[00:12:32] That we didn't pay them.

[00:12:34] They came in and damaged one of the CRT displays with the baseball bat.

[00:12:38] And that's where I realized.

[00:12:41] Were you there for that?

[00:12:42] Yeah.

[00:12:42] Yeah.

[00:12:43] Wow.

[00:12:43] How did that make you feel after you fried your own motherboard and saved up all your money and opened this business to help provide for your family?

[00:12:54] I know.

[00:12:54] This was devastating, to be honest.

[00:12:57] It was really, yeah, I remember that moment when you, I don't know if you actually tried to break CRT display.

[00:13:08] You would actually remember just that part, you know?

[00:13:12] But the people, like I remember how they looked like in the, you know, the guys in the leather jackets, you know, with the baseball bat.

[00:13:23] And, you know, I really started worrying at that time.

[00:13:27] Yeah.

[00:13:28] And I realized that, you know, it went too far.

[00:13:32] And running a business in Russia, I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur, but it was really hard to do it in Russia at that time.

[00:13:38] You need to have a good connection.

[00:13:42] You needed to, like, basically pay half of the money to the people you don't know.

[00:13:48] Yeah.

[00:13:49] It felt really bad because they said that next time we'll come, we'll damage all the displays, all the monitors, and you won't be able to earn any money, you know?

[00:13:58] Yeah.

[00:13:59] Yeah.

[00:14:00] So what I did then, and I saved enough money to actually go to North America at that time.

[00:14:07] I went to university, my first grade of university in Russia.

[00:14:11] And I always wanted to go abroad.

[00:14:14] I had a big political map in my room at home.

[00:14:18] I wanted to always go travel abroad and learn from the internet that, you know, there's a lot happening in the United States.

[00:14:28] So I wanted to go to the United States.

[00:14:30] I had the American dream.

[00:14:33] And so at that time, you know, the only way for me to get to America was to find a university where I would go.

[00:14:43] And after finishing university, I would probably, like, if there's an exchange program or something, I would go, you know?

[00:14:50] So, yeah, and I went to university that year, right when the mafia came in.

[00:14:59] And I realized that, okay, I'm just, I'm not going to do this.

[00:15:02] I saved enough money, like I believe it was $2,000, to finish the business.

[00:15:09] It just kind of, my friends became legal.

[00:15:14] They were 18 and older.

[00:15:15] So I said, okay, now you can run the business.

[00:15:17] I'm out of it.

[00:15:19] And I remember, oh, yeah, and I bought my first cell phone.

[00:15:23] I remember I wanted to buy a cell phone.

[00:15:25] It was a Motorola cell phone.

[00:15:28] So when I went to university the first year, I wanted to find, you know, the proper program where I would go to, at the end of the course, I would go to the United States.

[00:15:41] So I found this university that really suits me.

[00:15:47] And I thought, oh, I'll just finish four years or five years and go abroad.

[00:15:51] But I ended up going next year, like on the second year of university, I ended up going to the United States through exchange program.

[00:16:02] I found a similar friend, like a similar person like me who had the same ambition.

[00:16:09] His name is Vladimir.

[00:16:11] And he told me, oh, Sergey, you know, we don't need to wait five years, four years.

[00:16:17] I have a program now.

[00:16:18] We can go to this exchange program.

[00:16:20] And it's costing like $1,500.

[00:16:24] And I said, wow, this is what I have.

[00:16:26] This is my ticket to the United States.

[00:16:29] That is so cool.

[00:16:30] So what university and what city?

[00:16:33] So I grew up, my university was Rostov on Don.

[00:16:38] It's kind of on a border between Russia and Ukraine.

[00:16:42] And I finished, so after first year, I was able to go to this program, exchange program to United States.

[00:16:55] So I didn't actually go to university.

[00:16:57] The program was called Camp USA.

[00:17:00] So it was a summer program to go to work in the summer camp in the United States.

[00:17:06] And I said, wow, that's good enough.

[00:17:08] You know, I'll go to summer camp.

[00:17:11] It was amazing.

[00:17:12] I went to State of Maine, working in a private Boy Scout camp.

[00:17:17] I was working in the kitchen.

[00:17:19] Like, I was happy, you know.

[00:17:21] First time going to the United States.

[00:17:23] Like, you know, I flew to New York and then from there to Maine.

[00:17:27] Greyhound bus to Maine.

[00:17:29] It's just like what I was, you know, experiencing and watching American movies at that time.

[00:17:38] So, yeah.

[00:17:39] And then a second year, I went to another program, which is called, basically it was international students working.

[00:17:49] And not in a summer camp, but in a different amusement park, I remember.

[00:17:55] But then I really wanted to go abroad.

[00:17:57] Like, after finishing university, I realized that I'm going to go to the United States no matter what.

[00:18:01] I picked the university.

[00:18:03] I found University of Colorado.

[00:18:05] But then 9-11 happened because I wanted to go there for postgrad to do master's in U.S.

[00:18:11] 9-11 happened and I wasn't able to go to U.S. because borders were closed and they were denying everybody's visas.

[00:18:18] And then I looked at the map and I found, like, oh, there's another country right next to U.S.

[00:18:22] I'll go there and maybe I'll cross the border.

[00:18:25] And that's how I ended up in Canada.

[00:18:27] Yeah.

[00:18:28] That's pretty cool.

[00:18:29] That's a pretty funny story.

[00:18:30] So, yeah.

[00:18:31] Where did you first go in Canada?

[00:18:33] Well, Canada, I didn't have much money.

[00:18:35] I only had $500.

[00:18:39] And, yeah.

[00:18:40] And basically, it was – I had to go to – I had a student visa.

[00:18:45] So, I went to college.

[00:18:48] I couldn't just go and start working.

[00:18:50] So, I went to college, Algonquin College in Ottawa, Canada.

[00:18:55] And, yeah, the program – I remember there was a couple of programs.

[00:19:01] But for me, strategically, I picked the culinary school program where you would actually go to learn how to cook.

[00:19:10] And you'll be – typically, that program is very simple.

[00:19:16] So, you don't have to study much.

[00:19:19] Like, you do the practice.

[00:19:20] And afternoon, you're free.

[00:19:22] You know?

[00:19:22] And plus, they give you free food.

[00:19:23] I said, wow, this is awesome.

[00:19:25] So, I can actually go and work.

[00:19:27] And this is how I was able to, you know, earn enough to finish my studies.

[00:19:33] I went to cybersecurity postgrad program on the same college after.

[00:19:40] And then –

[00:19:41] So, you went from culinary to cybersecurity.

[00:19:43] That's quite the change of major there.

[00:19:46] Remember, I had a master's computer science already at that time, right?

[00:19:50] So – but culinary allowed me to actually survive, you know.

[00:19:54] Imagine coming to the new country on a student visa with only $500, you know.

[00:19:59] If you go to cybersecurity, like, first of all, it's more expensive.

[00:20:02] But second, it's hard.

[00:20:03] Like, you wouldn't be able to study and work at the same time.

[00:20:08] So, it was a strategic move for me.

[00:20:10] So, I went to culinary school.

[00:20:12] So – and I remember I saw Jamie Oliver's show on TV in my residence.

[00:20:19] And I'm like, wow.

[00:20:21] It's the first time in my life I saw a cooking show.

[00:20:25] And I kind of, like, imagined myself doing the same thing.

[00:20:27] And I thought, well, I saw that in a college.

[00:20:29] I'm going to take this program.

[00:20:30] And, yeah, it was really fun at the end of the day.

[00:20:35] I still – one of my passions is where I feel myself more relaxed and is when I'm cooking.

[00:20:43] So, it helped me for sure.

[00:20:44] So, you land in Ottawa with $500 to your name and you're going to culinary school and then ultimately to cybersecurity school.

[00:20:57] How do you go from $500 and landing in Ottawa to even considering starting an MSP?

[00:21:04] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:21:05] So, when I went to a cybersecurity course after – in Canada, they have – in order to get a good job in cybersecurity, you have to have security clearance.

[00:21:17] And that means that you have to live in country for X amount of time.

[00:21:21] So, since I was a newcomer, I was not able to actually work for a company as a cybersecurity analyst.

[00:21:30] So, really, what this told me that, okay, I cannot – I'm unemployable in cybersecurity.

[00:21:38] But, so, as a – as every entrepreneur, I'm like, okay, I'm up for a challenge.

[00:21:44] I'm going to start my own MSP, my own IT company.

[00:21:47] So, and that's how it all started.

[00:21:49] I just went to – I had enough education at that time.

[00:21:52] I already had life worth of experience building computers, fighting Russian mafia, making – actually doing a business, you know, like paying expenses, earning revenue.

[00:22:07] I had a master's in computer science already.

[00:22:11] I was enough qualified to do IT work, but I was not – it was not enough for me to find a job because of the security clearance requirement.

[00:22:20] So, this naturally led me to start my own IT company.

[00:22:25] And I started it by just going door to door.

[00:22:29] So, how was that first year in business?

[00:22:32] How did you get any context?

[00:22:34] How did you get started?

[00:22:35] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:22:36] So, I started by going door to door.

[00:22:39] I remember I went to a networking event when this lady was sharing her success story.

[00:22:46] And she says, I was broke and I had no money.

[00:22:51] I only had like $40.

[00:22:53] And she says, what I did is I went to Staples or Business Depot, okay, and printed out some flyers for this $40 and posted them on the trees and everywhere.

[00:23:08] She started the cleaning business.

[00:23:10] And what's fascinated me is that she was actually telling her story of success because she ended up selling, growing and selling this cleaning company for millions of dollars, you know.

[00:23:24] But she was at the very bottom.

[00:23:26] And then I realized that, wow, this is interesting.

[00:23:29] So, it's just the hard work, determination, and very little funds can get you there, right?

[00:23:36] So, that's what I did.

[00:23:38] I think I believe my initial investment was about, you know, $200, $300.

[00:23:42] I printed door hangers.

[00:23:48] Door hangers, you know.

[00:23:50] So, you put them on the doors of people.

[00:23:52] And then I went around business parks, you know, residential.

[00:23:57] I did some break-fix.

[00:23:59] It was still kind of break-fix work, mainly.

[00:24:01] I only started, I think, like doing MSP at that time.

[00:24:06] Eventually, it all went from, you know, small jobs.

[00:24:11] And I remember I made my first business.

[00:24:14] Like, I was fixing computers at that time, doing what I did when I was a teenager.

[00:24:19] But then this whole industry, MSP, started appearing out of nowhere, right?

[00:24:27] Events, online, you start listening, learning.

[00:24:32] I remember Autotask came out, you know, Enable, you know, things like that.

[00:24:39] And, yeah, and that's how I started incorporating that and got my first business client.

[00:24:46] And because I remember I was doing already MSP, but instead of putting a tools in place, I was selling kind of like recurrent visits to customers.

[00:24:56] You know, I remember that legal firm.

[00:24:59] I converted them from recurrent visits to just recurrent maintenance.

[00:25:07] And it made total sense for them.

[00:25:10] I was like, well, you don't even need to waste our time.

[00:25:13] You can just do everything remotely.

[00:25:14] Absolutely.

[00:25:15] And that's how it turned for me.

[00:25:18] Really, really cool.

[00:25:20] So tell me about your focus on cybersecurity.

[00:25:25] Yeah.

[00:25:26] And I understand that many MSPs struggling differentiating themselves because we're at the end of the day doing the same thing, right?

[00:25:35] So I start learning more about, you know, how can I do that?

[00:25:40] And what is my real thinking about cybersecurity?

[00:25:43] If I were just talking to somebody I know really well, what would be my natural way to explain what I do?

[00:25:52] Right?

[00:25:55] And the concept is really, right?

[00:25:58] And the concept is really simple for me is that we know that cybersecurity is a big, big problem.

[00:26:04] It's a big market.

[00:26:05] It's a $10.5 trillion economy next year after U.S. and China economy.

[00:26:11] It's cybersecurity's third largest economy in the world.

[00:26:14] And we know that the hackers are attacking mainly UK.

[00:26:20] UK is the first, the top country, U.S. and Canada, second and third.

[00:26:25] So we live in this market of hackers attacking, but nobody really thinks about where the hackers are coming from.

[00:26:33] You know, so my goal is to start from the beginning.

[00:26:38] You know, why is this happening?

[00:26:40] Where is it happening?

[00:26:43] And how is it happening?

[00:26:46] And then what do you do to protect yourself?

[00:26:48] So now that we know that, you know, UK, U.S. and Canada are attacked the most and we're here, where does this come from?

[00:26:58] So there's actually an organization that measures cyber activities, where they actually come from.

[00:27:06] I think it's called World Cybercrime Index.

[00:27:09] And the first country is Russia.

[00:27:12] Second is Ukraine.

[00:27:13] Third is China, I believe.

[00:27:15] And I always thought, okay, wait a minute.

[00:27:18] Why is the Russia and Ukraine number one?

[00:27:21] And what's common there is language, is the Russian language.

[00:27:25] Ukrainians speak Russian language as well.

[00:27:29] And then it struck me, wow, this is exactly why.

[00:27:33] Like I went back to my roots, you know, where, wait a minute, I grew up there.

[00:27:38] And I know how the education system here is different from Russian system because they have different standard, education standard, where it's mainly focused on technical training, technical skills.

[00:27:55] For instance, we had informatics, which is computer science in high school, right?

[00:28:02] We already had computers in our class, like in the very beginning of our, when you went to just high school.

[00:28:09] They had mathematics.

[00:28:10] I remember my grandfather, before I went to high school, like I think it was six years old.

[00:28:19] So typically you start education at seven.

[00:28:22] You go to school or maybe it's called preschool here.

[00:28:25] I'm not sure.

[00:28:26] But in Russia, you start going to physically do school at seven.

[00:28:30] So I remember when I was six, my grandfather taught me multiplying table, you know, three times three is nine, et cetera, right?

[00:28:39] And here in the U.S., they teach that much further, maybe when you're 10 years old or something like that, right?

[00:28:48] So it's just a small example.

[00:28:49] But really the biggest example is that the laws are different too.

[00:28:53] In Russia, learning hacking, it was actually a good thing.

[00:28:59] And they had magazines, like you can buy a magazine, like a PC magazine in North America.

[00:29:05] In Russia, there was a magazine called Hacker.

[00:29:07] It's still around.

[00:29:08] If you go to hacker.ru, it's already, it's been 25 years in the making.

[00:29:16] They have edition number 300 right now.

[00:29:19] And it's a monthly magazine.

[00:29:21] And each magazine covers one important topic.

[00:29:26] So, for example, how to hack a Skype, I remember.

[00:29:32] It was one of those.

[00:29:33] How to listen to Skype or somebody's Skype calls.

[00:29:36] How to intersect the SMS signals.

[00:29:42] And those magazines are available.

[00:29:44] You can actually download them and see them.

[00:29:46] And it was completely legal to read them and get them.

[00:29:50] I remember all I needed was just to go to public library and I can read everything as a teenager.

[00:29:57] So it's available to people.

[00:30:02] And here in North America, it's kind of like a taboo, right?

[00:30:05] And I think the biggest portion, a lot of hackers grew up on these magazines and actually lost, like I was studying Russian hackers, actually.

[00:30:14] This is, I'm an expert in hackers right now.

[00:30:17] I consider myself.

[00:30:18] And I learned that hackers don't attack anyone who has a Russian keyboard, right?

[00:30:25] So anybody who is in the Russian territory or Ukraine, they don't attack or don't do ransomware on those computers because of that keyboard.

[00:30:34] And because it's considered to be, you know, not a crime if you attack somebody outside of country with the English keyboard.

[00:30:45] But if you attack somebody inside, this is already a problem for hackers.

[00:30:51] So they're trying to avoid.

[00:30:52] And this is why I think the main reason why the hackers actually originate there.

[00:31:00] Now, there's obviously other countries, but the top two countries are Russia and Ukraine.

[00:31:04] And now I'm able to explain to people that, okay, this happens there.

[00:31:09] And this is my story.

[00:31:10] Let me explain you next steps.

[00:31:12] You know, now that hackers are attacking you, let me tell you how they do that.

[00:31:16] And then I explain typically how they do it.

[00:31:20] And really what it is, is cybersecurity awareness training.

[00:31:24] Every MSB offers that.

[00:31:26] And I think this should be the main form of, you know, educating a client through cybersecurity awareness.

[00:31:34] But I'm just doing it by injecting hackers in it, hacker story in there.

[00:31:42] Because I want the clients to see cybersecurity from hackers' eyes.

[00:31:48] How is your background shaped?

[00:31:52] How you talk to clients about it?

[00:31:57] How you educate them about it?

[00:32:00] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:32:03] I believe when I actually do examples and showing them, obviously we need to talk about examples.

[00:32:10] And, like, look at this firm, CPA firm.

[00:32:14] They just got hacked.

[00:32:15] Let me tell you what happened there.

[00:32:18] And you need to show some, you know, some examples in a way that the client will understand it.

[00:32:30] Otherwise, they wouldn't get it.

[00:32:31] Otherwise, they would not take it seriously.

[00:32:34] So sometimes I showed physical devices like the flipper.

[00:32:38] I have a flipper, zero with me here.

[00:32:40] Or a rubber decking USB, right?

[00:32:44] Sometimes physically showing something to a client changes their perspective.

[00:32:50] I remember Steve Jobs' famous quote.

[00:32:54] People sometimes don't know what they want until they see it.

[00:32:58] And this is when he introduced iPod.

[00:33:00] You know, like, thousand songs in your pocket.

[00:33:05] Now they got it.

[00:33:07] You know?

[00:33:07] Yeah.

[00:33:08] So if I show them how hackers, let's say, getting into a computer using either a physical device or, you know, manipulating you by letting you click on the link,

[00:33:25] it actually changes their perspective.

[00:33:27] They start thinking, okay.

[00:33:29] So again, it's just a simple reframing the message from just actually showing them.

[00:33:37] Like, here's how easy it is to create a rat.

[00:33:40] How to get your email on the internet, you know?

[00:33:43] So you can actually get the backdoor to LinkedIn and get all your emails from LinkedIn.

[00:33:49] So I started researching more on those tools.

[00:33:52] Again, I started putting myself in the hacker role, right?

[00:33:55] And that's what ethical hackers do.

[00:33:58] They're just putting themselves in the hacker's shoes to start to think like a hacker.

[00:34:04] And I found this has really helped me putting, letting the clients think differently, you know?

[00:34:13] Because before I was like, how do I explain them that this is bad?

[00:34:17] How do I show them?

[00:34:18] Like, they always think that, oh, I'm too small to be being hacked, right?

[00:34:21] But if I can actually show them that your system is vulnerable and here's how hackers do that,

[00:34:28] they understand it better.

[00:34:30] So I would say explaining, showing them, it makes a big difference.

[00:34:38] Once you show them and they go, okay, I see what you're talking about.

[00:34:41] You press the flipper and then all this stuff happened or whatever it is you show them,

[00:34:46] what do you propose as a solution?

[00:34:48] I usually, again, explain in clients that hackers, there's a timeline of the hacker attack.

[00:34:57] You know, there's, first is gathering information and footprints, you know, online,

[00:35:05] like whether you have a dark web scanner,

[00:35:10] like just basically educating them on the different stages.

[00:35:15] So first, you need to make sure that there's nothing available online that hackers use against you.

[00:35:20] So just maybe stop posting your personal stuff, you know, online.

[00:35:26] Second, as I would say, I would advise them to do pen test or, you know, a friendly hack,

[00:35:34] I call it because I'm trying not to confuse them, is to test your system.

[00:35:41] And what I'm trying to do is external pen test.

[00:35:44] They basically do a web security scan to see if, in a show client, if their system could be, you know, compromised,

[00:35:53] their email can be compromised.

[00:35:54] And I explain them that email is the largest vector for hackers right now, right?

[00:35:59] So if they can take their email and redirect it, or they can take, you know,

[00:36:06] they can pretend that it's somebody else on your company, like they can intersect,

[00:36:10] they take your MX records or, you know, fiddle around with the DNS records

[00:36:15] and send somebody an email pretending it's you.

[00:36:18] So clients don't like that.

[00:36:20] So usually I show them that.

[00:36:23] And if we're going even further, I ask client,

[00:36:27] how do you even know if your emails are not being read right now by a hacker?

[00:36:31] Because on average, it takes 200 days to detect an attack,

[00:36:36] to detect a hacker in your system.

[00:36:39] This is industry average, you know.

[00:36:41] And they sometimes don't know about it and they can't answer that.

[00:36:45] That's why I wrote a book, actually.

[00:36:46] And the first thing in my book is the quote by FBI director.

[00:36:55] And he says that, you know, there are two types of companies.

[00:36:58] Those have been hacked and those will be hacked.

[00:37:01] So I ask clients, which one are you?

[00:37:04] And that's the, obviously, and there's last step.

[00:37:07] Finally, if this won't work, there's a final step, which is a recovery step,

[00:37:12] which is the most painful step.

[00:37:14] This is where we need to make sure that the clients have backups, right?

[00:37:19] This is where we need to make sure.

[00:37:20] I'm aware of that.

[00:37:21] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:37:23] This is where we need to make sure that the client has preparedness plan,

[00:37:27] you know, for worse, you know, cybersecurity insurance, you know.

[00:37:30] So I typically break it down into four stages and try to do the first one,

[00:37:37] the second, third, and fourth.

[00:37:39] And what's interesting, each stage is more cost-effective than a previous stage.

[00:37:46] So imagine the last stage, the recovery stage,

[00:37:49] it's when you already have ransomware.

[00:37:50] You know, you're going to have to reset all your computers.

[00:37:53] You're going to have to experience this much of downtime.

[00:37:57] It's going to cost you a lot of, you know, money.

[00:38:00] And also the, you know, what kind of impact is going to take,

[00:38:04] your company is going to take if you are hacked.

[00:38:08] Like, will you lose clients?

[00:38:10] Will you lose reputation?

[00:38:11] So as an MSP, let's say I do get a client to buy in.

[00:38:15] Should I focus on all the protections that I can do and deliver as part of my stack?

[00:38:21] Or do you see it more as education,

[00:38:24] like cybersecurity training and other forms of education or something else?

[00:38:29] Well, my personal thing, and again, there's so many MSPs,

[00:38:31] and you interviewed so many MSP owners here, by the way.

[00:38:34] I learned a lot from them, and thank you for that.

[00:38:37] Absolutely.

[00:38:39] My thinking, education, because I always say clients,

[00:38:43] and we all know that 90% of cyber attacks happens because of people,

[00:38:48] because they do kind of stupid things.

[00:38:50] You know, they pick up USBs and putting on their computers,

[00:38:53] and they're clicking on the links, right?

[00:38:56] But I believe the opposite.

[00:38:58] So I have this twist on it.

[00:39:01] So every,

[00:39:02] every,

[00:39:04] I believe that every company could be protected because of people,

[00:39:09] actually because of people,

[00:39:11] not because of MSPs.

[00:39:12] MSPs, you know,

[00:39:13] MSPs of course will help.

[00:39:15] But,

[00:39:15] but people will be the first.

[00:39:18] First,

[00:39:20] and,

[00:39:21] and by educating people,

[00:39:24] you know,

[00:39:24] you can create like army of cyber heroes in your organization.

[00:39:29] That will do 90% of the work for you.

[00:39:33] You will need MSP just for the 10% of the work.

[00:39:36] Yeah.

[00:39:38] So that's my,

[00:39:39] my thinking about.

[00:39:41] So how do you get that point across?

[00:39:44] Because I think that's a challenge every MSP faces.

[00:39:47] Cause even if they haven't been,

[00:39:50] you know,

[00:39:51] where you've been in all the ways,

[00:39:53] literally and figuratively,

[00:39:55] they know they need to protect their client and they tell their clients.

[00:39:57] And universally the client wants to do as little as possible.

[00:40:01] And I think the threat is not perceived as real or as real.

[00:40:06] And you hire new people.

[00:40:08] So maybe that you gave a talk when you first brought the client on,

[00:40:12] but now they've hired a bunch of new folks.

[00:40:13] So how do you help them to understand,

[00:40:17] to look for this or do this?

[00:40:19] And,

[00:40:19] you know,

[00:40:19] to,

[00:40:20] to obviously that they need to do their business,

[00:40:22] right?

[00:40:22] This can't like looking out for cyber attacks can't be their,

[00:40:25] their top thing.

[00:40:26] They have to actually do whatever their business is.

[00:40:28] So how do you get them to,

[00:40:29] to kind of balance that tension?

[00:40:31] Yeah.

[00:40:32] Um,

[00:40:33] well,

[00:40:33] obviously it's the systems that you need to put in place.

[00:40:36] Yeah.

[00:40:36] As an MSP,

[00:40:37] we experiencing big,

[00:40:38] like a change in staff and,

[00:40:40] uh,

[00:40:40] every new,

[00:40:41] like we almost need to re-unboard the client,

[00:40:43] um,

[00:40:44] every time,

[00:40:45] you know,

[00:40:46] somebody starts,

[00:40:47] uh,

[00:40:47] at this company.

[00:40:48] So again,

[00:40:50] I would start,

[00:40:51] uh,

[00:40:51] with the refraining,

[00:40:53] every person,

[00:40:53] like the IT education and,

[00:40:55] and awareness training should be on,

[00:40:57] in the part of not just us,

[00:41:00] but inside of that company.

[00:41:02] So,

[00:41:02] and inside of our client.

[00:41:04] So,

[00:41:04] you know how we,

[00:41:05] we help creating,

[00:41:06] you know,

[00:41:07] policies for companies,

[00:41:08] but we almost need to help them create,

[00:41:10] uh,

[00:41:11] culture,

[00:41:12] uh,

[00:41:12] of cyber heroes first as well.

[00:41:15] So,

[00:41:16] so it's like,

[00:41:17] we need to teach them how to,

[00:41:19] how to fish,

[00:41:21] uh,

[00:41:21] instead of giving them the fish,

[00:41:23] you know what I mean?

[00:41:24] So,

[00:41:24] so we,

[00:41:25] we,

[00:41:25] uh,

[00:41:26] we,

[00:41:26] we need to talk to the owners of that business saying that you,

[00:41:30] you,

[00:41:30] you have to understand that this is very important.

[00:41:33] 90,

[00:41:33] we only here to do the 10% of the job.

[00:41:35] Your people need to do the 90% of the job and we can help you create that,

[00:41:40] uh,

[00:41:41] incorporate that into your culture.

[00:41:43] Uh,

[00:41:43] we,

[00:41:43] we call it a cyber hero,

[00:41:45] uh,

[00:41:46] approach that we want your employees to be cyber heroes.

[00:41:49] Um,

[00:41:49] so we are a guide.

[00:41:51] We're not,

[00:41:51] we're not the hero.

[00:41:52] We're,

[00:41:53] we don't position MSP as a hero,

[00:41:55] uh,

[00:41:55] our MSP.

[00:41:56] We want to position our clients,

[00:41:59] um,

[00:41:59] employees are heroes.

[00:42:01] They're the ones who do all the work.

[00:42:04] they're the ones who will eventually protect the company.

[00:42:07] So by just reframing that thinking,

[00:42:10] right?

[00:42:10] So just explaining them that,

[00:42:11] that this is,

[00:42:13] they need to take it seriously on the higher level.

[00:42:15] So it's an HR,

[00:42:16] it's,

[00:42:16] it goes to HR eventually,

[00:42:18] you know,

[00:42:19] every employee starts with HR.

[00:42:20] So you need to do the,

[00:42:21] the training,

[00:42:22] um,

[00:42:23] uh,

[00:42:23] we,

[00:42:24] we,

[00:42:24] we send out weekly emails.

[00:42:26] Obviously many,

[00:42:27] many people do that.

[00:42:29] Um,

[00:42:30] but we also provide them with the,

[00:42:32] um,

[00:42:32] guide,

[00:42:33] um,

[00:42:33] cybersecurity guide.

[00:42:34] So they can actually go through it when they start the onboarding,

[00:42:38] uh,

[00:42:38] with that new client,

[00:42:39] a new customer.

[00:42:40] So,

[00:42:40] uh,

[00:42:41] new,

[00:42:41] uh,

[00:42:42] their first day at job,

[00:42:43] they actually go through the training,

[00:42:45] uh,

[00:42:46] from us.

[00:42:47] Um,

[00:42:48] and,

[00:42:48] um,

[00:42:49] this is very important,

[00:42:50] but then it's still up to boss to their boss to,

[00:42:54] uh,

[00:42:54] explaining to them that this is very important.

[00:42:56] So we,

[00:42:57] as MSPs need to talk to,

[00:43:00] to that higher,

[00:43:01] uh,

[00:43:02] higher,

[00:43:02] uh,

[00:43:03] and in,

[00:43:04] in convince them that this is important.

[00:43:07] And this is what I do.

[00:43:08] I,

[00:43:08] I explain them my,

[00:43:09] through my story,

[00:43:10] through my philosophy,

[00:43:13] uh,

[00:43:13] kind of trying to scare them a little bit.

[00:43:15] So they understand it,

[00:43:16] that this is important and we need to put top priority on educating our people.

[00:43:21] And,

[00:43:22] um,

[00:43:22] and it's better for us as an MSP.

[00:43:24] We don't want to work with somebody who's not educated,

[00:43:28] who's clicking on the links,

[00:43:30] who's putting USBs and,

[00:43:32] and,

[00:43:33] and,

[00:43:33] uh,

[00:43:34] answers the phone,

[00:43:36] gives the passwords away type of thing.

[00:43:38] So you,

[00:43:39] we talked about your journey and you started your MSP in Ottawa.

[00:43:43] Tell me about where you are now on your journey to the American dream.

[00:43:47] Yeah,

[00:43:48] absolutely.

[00:43:49] So I was,

[00:43:50] again,

[00:43:50] I was attending,

[00:43:51] uh,

[00:43:51] Robbins,

[00:43:52] Robbins,

[00:43:52] um,

[00:43:53] event once and I met with,

[00:43:55] uh,

[00:43:55] Robert Herjavik,

[00:43:56] who is,

[00:43:57] uh,

[00:43:58] kind of my role model,

[00:43:59] uh,

[00:44:00] because he also came to America or Canada,

[00:44:03] um,

[00:44:04] and with no money.

[00:44:05] And now he just sold his,

[00:44:07] it's one of the largest cybersecurity MSSPs,

[00:44:10] you know,

[00:44:11] uh,

[00:44:12] Ciders,

[00:44:13] his company.

[00:44:14] And,

[00:44:14] um,

[00:44:15] he just exited and he's well known for his show,

[00:44:18] Shark Tank and Dragon's Dan.

[00:44:20] Um,

[00:44:20] so,

[00:44:21] and he was taking,

[00:44:22] talking on stage and he's,

[00:44:23] uh,

[00:44:24] he's saying that,

[00:44:26] you know,

[00:44:28] MSPs are great,

[00:44:29] but,

[00:44:29] uh,

[00:44:29] you all thinking too small.

[00:44:31] Like,

[00:44:31] why are you thinking like your town?

[00:44:34] Um,

[00:44:35] you need to really think big.

[00:44:37] Think big,

[00:44:38] like world big.

[00:44:39] And,

[00:44:40] um,

[00:44:40] I remember flying back from this event.

[00:44:42] I'm thinking,

[00:44:43] yeah,

[00:44:43] why do I,

[00:44:44] just in Canada and this small government town,

[00:44:47] why are you not providing services around the world?

[00:44:51] Uh,

[00:44:52] and that's where I decided to actually,

[00:44:55] okay,

[00:44:55] expand.

[00:44:56] All right.

[00:44:56] I want to go and broader,

[00:44:58] broaden those boundaries.

[00:45:00] Uh,

[00:45:01] and,

[00:45:01] uh,

[00:45:02] and lately it was an ITBD,

[00:45:04] uh,

[00:45:04] IT by design event where Sonny was talking about,

[00:45:08] um,

[00:45:09] uh,

[00:45:09] and,

[00:45:10] uh,

[00:45:10] the,

[00:45:11] uh,

[00:45:11] borderless business.

[00:45:12] Right.

[00:45:13] Uh,

[00:45:13] and this is where actually we met together.

[00:45:15] Right.

[00:45:15] So,

[00:45:16] uh,

[00:45:17] and,

[00:45:17] uh,

[00:45:18] it struck me like,

[00:45:18] wow,

[00:45:19] there's so many companies that I use personally,

[00:45:21] like Starbucks,

[00:45:22] you know,

[00:45:22] it's a borderless business.

[00:45:24] They have to,

[00:45:24] to,

[00:45:25] so why can't I create that?

[00:45:27] So now,

[00:45:28] um,

[00:45:28] and it,

[00:45:29] and that,

[00:45:29] and then I remembered my American dream,

[00:45:31] obviously.

[00:45:32] It's like,

[00:45:32] I wanted to go to us and,

[00:45:34] uh,

[00:45:34] and,

[00:45:34] um,

[00:45:36] us is 10 times bigger than Canada.

[00:45:38] And I,

[00:45:39] I really,

[00:45:39] my vision is to be North America company,

[00:45:42] but then even bigger in the future as well.

[00:45:45] So I,

[00:45:45] so now we incorporated in the United States now.

[00:45:49] So we,

[00:45:49] we already have office as well in the United States,

[00:45:53] um,

[00:45:54] getting my first customers already in us now.

[00:45:57] Um,

[00:45:58] and so,

[00:45:59] yeah,

[00:45:59] we're international MSP now.

[00:46:02] We also have a team.

[00:46:03] Yeah.

[00:46:03] We also have team in Philippines.

[00:46:05] I,

[00:46:05] I went to Philippines and,

[00:46:08] open the office there.

[00:46:09] We have a,

[00:46:10] a remote team.

[00:46:11] This allows us to,

[00:46:14] to leverage resources in the different time zone.

[00:46:17] And,

[00:46:17] uh,

[00:46:18] this is one of my plans to dominate MSP world,

[00:46:22] uh,

[00:46:23] by creating,

[00:46:24] uh,

[00:46:24] truly,

[00:46:25] um,

[00:46:26] borderless MSP.

[00:46:27] And,

[00:46:28] uh,

[00:46:29] people like Robert Herjavec,

[00:46:30] Sonny,

[00:46:32] uh,

[00:46:32] inspired us every day to,

[00:46:34] to think big.

[00:46:36] And,

[00:46:36] and,

[00:46:37] yeah,

[00:46:37] nowadays you can offer anything,

[00:46:39] uh,

[00:46:39] remotely.

[00:46:40] And,

[00:46:40] obviously after COVID,

[00:46:42] uh,

[00:46:43] a lot of people start thinking about it too.

[00:46:45] So what advice would you give any other MSP?

[00:46:48] Because most of us never get out of our shell.

[00:46:52] Certainly don't usually leave and go as a young kid to another nation,

[00:46:57] um,

[00:46:59] let alone,

[00:46:59] you know,

[00:47:00] another nation in another nation.

[00:47:02] But even if I'm just thinking in,

[00:47:04] how do I establish that next,

[00:47:06] like most of,

[00:47:07] most MSPs,

[00:47:08] they serve one area.

[00:47:09] They serve one,

[00:47:10] one city,

[00:47:11] one geographic area.

[00:47:12] So how would,

[00:47:13] how should I be thinking about that,

[00:47:15] you know,

[00:47:15] borderless talent or establishing that next presence?

[00:47:19] Yeah.

[00:47:20] Picked anywhere in the U S,

[00:47:22] uh,

[00:47:22] not just Florida.

[00:47:24] Yeah,

[00:47:24] absolutely.

[00:47:25] So again,

[00:47:26] I would say the,

[00:47:26] the first is you need to change your thinking,

[00:47:29] thinking a bit different.

[00:47:30] Like I went to Tony Robbins,

[00:47:31] um,

[00:47:32] event,

[00:47:33] uh,

[00:47:33] before pandemic,

[00:47:34] um,

[00:47:35] you know,

[00:47:35] walking on fire.

[00:47:37] Um,

[00:47:37] and,

[00:47:38] uh,

[00:47:38] I remember like he's teaching how to,

[00:47:40] you really need to start,

[00:47:41] everything starts in your head,

[00:47:43] you know?

[00:47:44] So you need to think first of all,

[00:47:45] that it's possible that,

[00:47:47] um,

[00:47:48] uh,

[00:47:49] I remember when I was growing up in Russia as a kid,

[00:47:51] we,

[00:47:51] we,

[00:47:52] we had,

[00:47:53] uh,

[00:47:53] before,

[00:47:53] before even my computer,

[00:47:55] uh,

[00:47:56] it was still when my father was still alive,

[00:47:58] we had a VHS,

[00:47:59] uh,

[00:48:00] And we only had a few VHS tapes.

[00:48:04] Uh,

[00:48:04] and one of them was the,

[00:48:06] uh,

[00:48:07] I remember the movie with,

[00:48:10] forgot the name of the movie,

[00:48:12] but it was,

[00:48:12] it was a man,

[00:48:14] uh,

[00:48:15] two men that ended up in the,

[00:48:17] in the forest.

[00:48:19] And,

[00:48:20] um,

[00:48:21] their plane crashed and they were in the forest.

[00:48:23] And,

[00:48:24] um,

[00:48:25] I think it was a Sean Connery who was,

[00:48:27] uh,

[00:48:27] is,

[00:48:28] uh,

[00:48:28] in the,

[00:48:28] uh,

[00:48:28] in the,

[00:48:29] uh,

[00:48:31] the main role.

[00:48:32] And I remember he was saying this,

[00:48:34] this specific phrase,

[00:48:35] if one man can do it,

[00:48:37] another can do it.

[00:48:38] If one man can do,

[00:48:39] another can do,

[00:48:40] this is it.

[00:48:41] And I was one of my first phrases that I learned in English.

[00:48:45] And,

[00:48:46] uh,

[00:48:46] and then if you know that any other MSP that actually achieved that,

[00:48:51] and we probably know all MSP owners probably know other MSPs who have multi locations.

[00:48:58] Right.

[00:48:58] So the first thing is reframing.

[00:49:00] And so if you,

[00:49:01] if you think that one person can do it,

[00:49:03] I'm sure you can do it too.

[00:49:05] Thank you.

[00:49:05] So that now that you have that feeling,

[00:49:08] now that you have that,

[00:49:10] you need to,

[00:49:11] well,

[00:49:11] next steps is how you do it.

[00:49:13] You know,

[00:49:13] uh,

[00:49:14] what I like about MSP communities,

[00:49:15] you can go and ask them,

[00:49:16] you know,

[00:49:17] and this is why I'm sharing my,

[00:49:19] my knowledge here as well.

[00:49:21] Like I'd love to help other MSPs too.

[00:49:23] So what,

[00:49:25] um,

[00:49:25] I would do honestly is to,

[00:49:27] is to,

[00:49:29] well,

[00:49:30] I would,

[00:49:30] I would probably focus on marketing first.

[00:49:32] I understand how,

[00:49:34] um,

[00:49:35] uh,

[00:49:35] marketing in one city different from another city.

[00:49:38] I can remember I,

[00:49:39] I recently did an event in the new city,

[00:49:41] uh,

[00:49:42] and we didn't have the same turnout.

[00:49:44] So we learned the mistakes and,

[00:49:46] um,

[00:49:48] it's just focusing more on,

[00:49:50] uh,

[00:49:50] you know,

[00:49:51] like in smaller,

[00:49:53] small,

[00:49:54] either niche,

[00:49:55] like you need to really niche,

[00:49:56] uh,

[00:49:56] if you niche your services,

[00:49:58] that means you can invite a better,

[00:50:00] um,

[00:50:01] better prospects to that city.

[00:50:03] You don't have to,

[00:50:04] um,

[00:50:05] you know,

[00:50:06] uh,

[00:50:07] we call it a pray and spray and pray,

[00:50:10] you know?

[00:50:10] Yeah.

[00:50:10] I invite everybody.

[00:50:12] So,

[00:50:12] uh,

[00:50:13] that's probably one of the biggest ones is because if you,

[00:50:16] if you specialize in a certain market,

[00:50:18] um,

[00:50:19] location,

[00:50:20] not important to people will not pick you because of the location.

[00:50:23] They'll pick you because you're good at this market at this vertical,

[00:50:27] right?

[00:50:28] knowing your USB is very important too.

[00:50:30] Like,

[00:50:31] uh,

[00:50:32] you need to understand that many people don't go to a new market because they

[00:50:35] think,

[00:50:35] Oh,

[00:50:36] it's,

[00:50:36] it's taken by somebody already.

[00:50:38] Um,

[00:50:39] and they're afraid of it.

[00:50:40] They're afraid that,

[00:50:41] Oh,

[00:50:41] I'm new here.

[00:50:42] I don't have anybody.

[00:50:44] So you need to start thinking differently.

[00:50:46] No,

[00:50:46] I'm here because I'm the best at what I do.

[00:50:49] And these clients deserve my service,

[00:50:51] you know?

[00:50:52] Um,

[00:50:53] and,

[00:50:53] uh,

[00:50:54] practically,

[00:50:55] I would say you need to have,

[00:50:56] you need to make sure that you can answer the calls,

[00:50:59] um,

[00:51:00] that your web presence is there that,

[00:51:02] you know,

[00:51:03] people still check where your offices are.

[00:51:06] Uh,

[00:51:06] they want to have that,

[00:51:08] um,

[00:51:09] ability.

[00:51:10] Like if your web,

[00:51:10] you can even now configure websites.

[00:51:12] So if there's somebody,

[00:51:14] you know,

[00:51:14] access it from certain IP address from that city,

[00:51:17] you can change the way the website looks,

[00:51:20] you know,

[00:51:21] um,

[00:51:22] getting phone numbers,

[00:51:24] obviously,

[00:51:24] um,

[00:51:25] you know,

[00:51:25] it's,

[00:51:26] it's good to have a good phone,

[00:51:27] a phone number,

[00:51:28] different,

[00:51:29] different location.

[00:51:31] Um,

[00:51:32] and the workforce,

[00:51:33] you need to have a workforce.

[00:51:34] You need to hire people who can work,

[00:51:37] um,

[00:51:38] in async mode,

[00:51:40] uh,

[00:51:41] where they work in different time zones,

[00:51:43] but you still,

[00:51:44] if very effective by,

[00:51:46] um,

[00:51:47] you don't need to have meetings on the same time.

[00:51:49] Uh,

[00:51:50] async meetings,

[00:51:51] uh,

[00:51:52] allows you to,

[00:51:53] you know,

[00:51:53] really,

[00:51:54] um,

[00:51:56] you know,

[00:51:56] uh,

[00:51:56] be more effective when it comes to your,

[00:51:58] your staff in different time zones.

[00:52:00] I've learned that as well.

[00:52:01] Um,

[00:52:02] after,

[00:52:03] uh,

[00:52:03] traveling to conferences for,

[00:52:06] um,

[00:52:06] that specializes in remote,

[00:52:07] remote work.

[00:52:09] Sergei,

[00:52:10] I want to switch gears for a moment.

[00:52:11] Um,

[00:52:12] what,

[00:52:12] what's the biggest lesson you feel like you've learned in your years of business?

[00:52:19] I would say the,

[00:52:23] yeah,

[00:52:24] as an MSP,

[00:52:25] there's,

[00:52:26] it's hard to say just one,

[00:52:28] obviously.

[00:52:29] Um,

[00:52:30] I would say when I,

[00:52:33] I guess the,

[00:52:35] uh,

[00:52:35] it's,

[00:52:36] it's kind of relates to the mistakes or the mistakes you did,

[00:52:38] you would advise not to make,

[00:52:40] but I would,

[00:52:41] for me,

[00:52:41] it was,

[00:52:42] I tried to provide too many services to too many people.

[00:52:47] Um,

[00:52:48] like one stop,

[00:52:49] one,

[00:52:49] one,

[00:52:51] one throat to choke.

[00:52:52] you know,

[00:52:53] uh,

[00:52:53] I remember,

[00:52:54] I thought that this is a absolutely great idea,

[00:52:56] uh,

[00:52:57] is to offer,

[00:52:58] um,

[00:52:59] you know,

[00:53:00] phone services and hosting services and all kinds of services to your clients,

[00:53:05] as opposed to just focus on,

[00:53:07] uh,

[00:53:08] strictly MSP,

[00:53:09] uh,

[00:53:10] or security.

[00:53:11] Um,

[00:53:12] I would,

[00:53:13] yeah,

[00:53:14] uh,

[00:53:15] I think if,

[00:53:16] uh,

[00:53:16] I,

[00:53:17] I would highly advise to focus on just one,

[00:53:20] um,

[00:53:21] a line of,

[00:53:22] you know,

[00:53:24] products.

[00:53:25] Like if it's a MSSP or MSP,

[00:53:27] don't,

[00:53:27] don't go to telecom or web design or hosting or,

[00:53:31] um,

[00:53:32] access.

[00:53:32] Or I know that as,

[00:53:33] um,

[00:53:34] as you grow and mature,

[00:53:35] you can add additional services,

[00:53:36] but not until you like,

[00:53:38] I don't know,

[00:53:39] 5 million.

[00:53:39] Uh,

[00:53:40] if you're a small company and you're trying to do too many things,

[00:53:43] it's very hard to scale.

[00:53:45] And that's what happened to me in,

[00:53:46] in the beginning.

[00:53:47] I couldn't scale.

[00:53:48] Like I was,

[00:53:49] I was,

[00:53:49] I couldn't get to a million in revenue for many years because I was offering

[00:53:53] all kinds of services to existing clients as opposed to focusing on

[00:53:57] the right clients and,

[00:53:59] uh,

[00:54:00] getting that's in the,

[00:54:02] the very good at the main service that you offer,

[00:54:05] whether it's a MSP offering or MSSP offering.

[00:54:09] Hmm.

[00:54:09] I think a lot of people need to hear that for sure.

[00:54:12] What's one thing you would do differently or do over if you could?

[00:54:17] Uh,

[00:54:17] sure.

[00:54:17] I wouldn't,

[00:54:18] uh,

[00:54:18] I would not hire every single client who has the money.

[00:54:22] Uh,

[00:54:23] I would,

[00:54:23] um,

[00:54:24] I would,

[00:54:24] I would not take them.

[00:54:25] I mean,

[00:54:26] uh,

[00:54:26] I would,

[00:54:27] I would be very careful who,

[00:54:28] uh,

[00:54:29] I choose to do business with at this point.

[00:54:32] Uh,

[00:54:32] and it's not always just the amount of money.

[00:54:34] It's also about the client and seeing,

[00:54:37] um,

[00:54:38] if this is the company that actually wants to grow,

[00:54:41] they want,

[00:54:42] they perceive you as,

[00:54:44] um,

[00:54:45] uh,

[00:54:45] as important,

[00:54:46] uh,

[00:54:47] in their business.

[00:54:48] Um,

[00:54:49] many companies will hire you just for,

[00:54:52] just like they would hire their cleaning company that cleans their offices.

[00:54:56] Like they're,

[00:54:58] um,

[00:55:00] uh,

[00:55:01] you know,

[00:55:01] it's a commodity,

[00:55:02] like they're going to look at you as more as a commodity.

[00:55:04] Uh,

[00:55:05] you're going to want to find clients.

[00:55:07] And I would,

[00:55:08] um,

[00:55:09] that,

[00:55:09] that sees you as a strategic partner,

[00:55:11] as,

[00:55:12] as a necessary,

[00:55:13] um,

[00:55:14] partner,

[00:55:14] as,

[00:55:14] um,

[00:55:16] as essential to their business,

[00:55:18] because,

[00:55:19] um,

[00:55:19] you know,

[00:55:20] IT and cybersecurity is so important at this point,

[00:55:23] right?

[00:55:24] So you can't just judge somebody,

[00:55:25] but just the price.

[00:55:27] Um,

[00:55:28] so I would highly advise,

[00:55:30] um,

[00:55:31] you know,

[00:55:31] picking the right clients,

[00:55:32] you know,

[00:55:32] just to ask them,

[00:55:33] Hey,

[00:55:34] why do you want to work with us?

[00:55:35] Uh,

[00:55:36] and tell us more about your business.

[00:55:38] Where do you see your businesses,

[00:55:41] you know,

[00:55:41] going,

[00:55:42] uh,

[00:55:43] in five years?

[00:55:44] Uh,

[00:55:45] so I made a lot of mistakes by hiring clients that I,

[00:55:48] uh,

[00:55:49] that didn't think the same way.

[00:55:51] Uh,

[00:55:51] and I stuck with them for years,

[00:55:53] uh,

[00:55:54] you know,

[00:55:54] and it's hard when somebody pays you,

[00:55:56] you know,

[00:55:57] thousand dollars a month,

[00:55:58] it's hard to fire them because,

[00:56:00] you know,

[00:56:01] it's still a revenue,

[00:56:02] right?

[00:56:02] But,

[00:56:03] but now after all these years,

[00:56:06] I learned that it's best to have,

[00:56:08] uh,

[00:56:08] less clients,

[00:56:09] but the right clients than a lot of clients.

[00:56:12] If there were one thing you,

[00:56:14] um,

[00:56:15] um,

[00:56:16] a myth you would bust or dispel about running an MSP,

[00:56:21] what would that be?

[00:56:22] Well,

[00:56:23] it depends on the,

[00:56:24] on the,

[00:56:24] on the stages of an MSP,

[00:56:27] I would say,

[00:56:27] right?

[00:56:28] Um,

[00:56:29] but if you think that you can run a business,

[00:56:32] um,

[00:56:34] if,

[00:56:34] if,

[00:56:34] if the business can run itself per se without you for,

[00:56:38] um,

[00:56:39] like basically making it more as,

[00:56:41] um,

[00:56:44] like a recurrent revenue,

[00:56:45] obviously it's a great thing,

[00:56:46] right?

[00:56:47] But if you think that it just comes naturally and you don't need to do

[00:56:50] anything in a,

[00:56:51] in a way where,

[00:56:52] uh,

[00:56:53] many businesses,

[00:56:54] um,

[00:56:54] MSPs,

[00:56:55] uh,

[00:56:55] setting up their companies,

[00:56:57] uh,

[00:56:57] in hope that they're going to run themselves and you're just going to

[00:57:00] step away.

[00:57:01] But,

[00:57:01] uh,

[00:57:02] and,

[00:57:04] and they would just hire somebody and it will run by itself.

[00:57:07] Uh,

[00:57:08] and I thought the same as I thought,

[00:57:10] wow.

[00:57:11] Um,

[00:57:14] it's,

[00:57:14] it's a great concept,

[00:57:15] this business,

[00:57:16] right?

[00:57:16] It's people paying your rent and you just hire technicians,

[00:57:19] but there's so much work behind the scenes.

[00:57:23] Um,

[00:57:23] and it's almost impossible to,

[00:57:26] to step away from the business in the early,

[00:57:29] uh,

[00:57:31] days.

[00:57:32] Uh,

[00:57:33] well,

[00:57:33] until I would say again,

[00:57:34] I would tell about 5 million in revenue,

[00:57:37] uh,

[00:57:37] until you build that team,

[00:57:39] like without the team is,

[00:57:41] uh,

[00:57:41] you need to have,

[00:57:42] you need to invest in your people,

[00:57:44] having the right team in place.

[00:57:45] Uh,

[00:57:45] but also,

[00:57:46] uh,

[00:57:47] you need to think about customer,

[00:57:49] uh,

[00:57:50] retention.

[00:57:50] You need to always think about bringing new clients.

[00:57:53] You need to learn how to do it consistently.

[00:57:56] Um,

[00:57:57] I would say the myth is like,

[00:57:59] is don't stop.

[00:58:01] Like some MSPs just,

[00:58:02] um,

[00:58:04] stop growing.

[00:58:06] They,

[00:58:06] they,

[00:58:06] they,

[00:58:06] they getting their revenue and they,

[00:58:08] they pausing.

[00:58:09] You need to continue developing.

[00:58:11] So it actually runs like a well-oiled machine.

[00:58:14] So the myth is,

[00:58:16] is don't stop.

[00:58:18] Keep going.

[00:58:20] Until you reach certain time,

[00:58:22] a certain moment.

[00:58:25] So there's a ton of change going on,

[00:58:27] all kinds of different opportunities.

[00:58:30] What is something that you're really looking forward to right now?

[00:58:34] Yeah.

[00:58:35] AI is a big,

[00:58:36] big opportunity,

[00:58:37] obviously.

[00:58:38] Um,

[00:58:39] I found that cybersecurity is,

[00:58:41] um,

[00:58:43] is not,

[00:58:43] um,

[00:58:45] sexy subject,

[00:58:45] you know,

[00:58:46] and it's not,

[00:58:47] it's,

[00:58:47] again,

[00:58:53] uh,

[00:58:54] scare people.

[00:58:54] Uh,

[00:58:55] and I found AI is much,

[00:58:57] much better.

[00:58:58] Um,

[00:58:58] it's the,

[00:58:59] uh,

[00:59:00] better approach.

[00:59:00] It's,

[00:59:00] it's the opposite.

[00:59:01] It's more like improvement.

[00:59:02] Uh,

[00:59:03] it's,

[00:59:03] it's,

[00:59:04] uh,

[00:59:04] positive as opposed to negative.

[00:59:06] Now,

[00:59:08] you can,

[00:59:08] if we focus on AI,

[00:59:09] we can still,

[00:59:10] you know,

[00:59:11] offer cybersecurity and AI can,

[00:59:13] can bring a lot of projects as well.

[00:59:16] Uh,

[00:59:17] to MSPs.

[00:59:18] And I believe every MSP needs to leverage AI themselves.

[00:59:23] So I know this,

[00:59:24] this is probably every MSP would say that,

[00:59:27] but I truly believe in that.

[00:59:28] And,

[00:59:29] um,

[00:59:30] as I wrote a book on cybersecurity,

[00:59:32] my next book is going to be on AI.

[00:59:34] And I do believe that,

[00:59:36] uh,

[00:59:36] this could be the next,

[00:59:38] uh,

[00:59:38] next important stage for MSPs growth is to how we're going to leverage AI

[00:59:43] and helping businesses leveraging it so they can grow.

[00:59:46] Uh,

[00:59:47] I want to have clients that are growing,

[00:59:49] that are successful because if they grow,

[00:59:51] we're going to grow as well.

[00:59:53] So it's very natural to,

[00:59:56] to work,

[00:59:57] lead with AI in that time.

[00:59:59] So on the,

[01:00:00] on that forefront,

[01:00:01] on the AI side,

[01:00:02] like what should,

[01:00:04] what,

[01:00:04] what do you see that MSP should be doing or what are you doing?

[01:00:07] And I,

[01:00:08] what I mean is,

[01:00:10] is it,

[01:00:10] is it too early?

[01:00:11] Should we just wait and see kind of do nothing?

[01:00:14] Should we be having conversations with our clients about AI and the upsides,

[01:00:19] the downsides,

[01:00:20] and just kind of having open dialogue or are we truly ready?

[01:00:25] Should we be engaging and,

[01:00:27] you know,

[01:00:28] actually driving revenue from AI,

[01:00:32] uh,

[01:00:32] with our clients today?

[01:00:33] Yeah,

[01:00:34] I think we're in a,

[01:00:35] uh,

[01:00:35] it's ripe now.

[01:00:37] Uh,

[01:00:38] I think it's the,

[01:00:39] if we're looking at the vendors,

[01:00:41] um,

[01:00:41] and basically MSP's market kind of gets pushed by vendors and like,

[01:00:46] let's say Microsoft,

[01:00:47] um,

[01:00:48] you know,

[01:00:49] they,

[01:00:49] they developing improving co-pilots.

[01:00:51] So now that it's ripe product.

[01:00:53] So in,

[01:00:54] in a way,

[01:00:55] um,

[01:00:57] absolutely just a conversation to start,

[01:01:00] just to have a pulse,

[01:01:01] you know,

[01:01:02] um,

[01:01:02] let's say if you have 50 clients and if you ask everyone,

[01:01:04] only 10 of them will say,

[01:01:06] yeah,

[01:01:06] I'm interested.

[01:01:07] Tell me more.

[01:01:08] So you work on those 10 clients and implement that,

[01:01:11] get more experience.

[01:01:13] By that time,

[01:01:14] the,

[01:01:15] another 10 people will,

[01:01:17] 10 customers will,

[01:01:19] will be ready.

[01:01:20] So definitely don't wait.

[01:01:22] There will be always early adopters as a customer.

[01:01:25] I remember when copilot was first announced,

[01:01:28] uh,

[01:01:28] I had one client reached out immediately and said,

[01:01:30] Sergei,

[01:01:30] how do we get that?

[01:01:32] You know,

[01:01:33] and,

[01:01:33] uh,

[01:01:34] I couldn't even get it from a vendor just yet.

[01:01:36] So I had to,

[01:01:36] I had to get on the list.

[01:01:38] Um,

[01:01:39] and,

[01:01:40] um,

[01:01:41] definitely,

[01:01:42] um,

[01:01:43] definitely just do like in batches,

[01:01:45] I would say.

[01:01:46] Um,

[01:01:47] and the way we do it is through again,

[01:01:49] education,

[01:01:50] because that's in our DNA because hackers use AI as well.

[01:01:55] And,

[01:01:56] um,

[01:01:57] one of the examples I,

[01:01:58] I use,

[01:01:59] I show explain clients that hackers use.

[01:02:03] A warm GPT and fraud GPT.

[01:02:06] This is,

[01:02:07] and no one heard of it because they,

[01:02:09] they all know Chad GPT,

[01:02:10] right?

[01:02:10] It's very well known LLM,

[01:02:13] but the,

[01:02:14] uh,

[01:02:15] I explained them that hackers actually use it.

[01:02:17] So would you want to start using AI yourself first or wait for hackers to,

[01:02:23] to use it against you?

[01:02:24] Uh,

[01:02:25] and same philosophy as,

[01:02:28] uh,

[01:02:28] I was describing you about cybersecurity education applies to AI,

[01:02:33] you know,

[01:02:34] because AI is,

[01:02:35] is available to everyone now.

[01:02:36] Uh,

[01:02:37] everybody essentially,

[01:02:38] everyone is essentially a coder.

[01:02:41] Uh,

[01:02:42] then they can,

[01:02:42] they can code now.

[01:02:44] So,

[01:02:45] and write malware if they want to.

[01:02:48] What's the one book you would recommend for other MSP owners to read?

[01:02:52] Oh,

[01:02:53] yes.

[01:02:53] I,

[01:02:54] other than yours.

[01:02:56] No,

[01:02:56] no,

[01:02:56] absolutely.

[01:02:57] So I do believe that any MSP,

[01:02:59] yeah,

[01:03:00] a hundred,

[01:03:00] like I,

[01:03:01] I'm big on books,

[01:03:02] uh,

[01:03:02] hard to pick one,

[01:03:03] but I'll tell you one.

[01:03:05] And,

[01:03:05] um,

[01:03:05] uh,

[01:03:06] recently read and reading it again,

[01:03:08] it's called pick up the phone and sell,

[01:03:11] uh,

[01:03:12] pick up the phone and sell.

[01:03:13] And,

[01:03:14] uh,

[01:03:14] it's a great book,

[01:03:15] um,

[01:03:17] that teaches you how to use the phone,

[01:03:21] um,

[01:03:21] properly to sell.

[01:03:22] Like,

[01:03:22] some people are afraid of cold calls.

[01:03:25] Uh,

[01:03:25] and,

[01:03:26] um,

[01:03:27] this is one of,

[01:03:28] um,

[01:03:29] only probably books on phone selling specifically for phone selling.

[01:03:34] Uh,

[01:03:34] the,

[01:03:35] the book is,

[01:03:37] um,

[01:03:37] by author.

[01:03:38] Let me just take a look.

[01:03:39] Uh,

[01:03:42] the,

[01:03:43] all right.

[01:03:44] So the,

[01:03:44] let me just tell you quickly,

[01:03:46] the author of the book is Alex Goldfane,

[01:03:50] Alex Goldfane,

[01:03:51] pick up the phone and sell.

[01:03:52] Uh,

[01:03:53] it's very easy to read and it explains you a con,

[01:03:56] uh,

[01:03:57] a real concept of,

[01:03:59] um,

[01:04:00] calling people proactively,

[01:04:02] not when they need you.

[01:04:04] Um,

[01:04:05] what,

[01:04:05] not when you have something to sell,

[01:04:07] just proactively calling people.

[01:04:09] Um,

[01:04:09] and,

[01:04:10] um,

[01:04:12] calling is very important.

[01:04:13] And then emailing or using social media,

[01:04:16] uh,

[01:04:17] because the phones are in everybody's pockets,

[01:04:20] right?

[01:04:20] So literally it's a magical device that can,

[01:04:23] they can connect you to any person in the world,

[01:04:26] right?

[01:04:26] If you know their number,

[01:04:28] of course.

[01:04:28] Uh,

[01:04:29] now books,

[01:04:30] book talks a lot about reasons why people don't make phone calls and they,

[01:04:35] they use,

[01:04:37] uh,

[01:04:37] social media,

[01:04:38] uh,

[01:04:38] or email or,

[01:04:40] you know,

[01:04:41] marketing software.

[01:04:43] Uh,

[01:04:44] it's because it's,

[01:04:45] it's,

[01:04:45] it's hard thing to do,

[01:04:46] but book explains you how to do it easily.

[01:04:49] Uh,

[01:04:49] and importance of,

[01:04:50] uh,

[01:04:50] leaving a voicemail because 80% of calls goes to voicemail,

[01:04:53] but people don't leave voicemails because they don't know what to say.

[01:04:58] So it's a very good read.

[01:05:00] Highly recommend helped me a lot.

[01:05:03] And,

[01:05:03] uh,

[01:05:03] yeah,

[01:05:04] it's not a MSP.

[01:05:05] It's a,

[01:05:06] it's about how to,

[01:05:06] it's a business book.

[01:05:07] It's,

[01:05:08] it's how to rethink your,

[01:05:09] um,

[01:05:11] interaction with prospects and clients.

[01:05:14] I think that's a great suggestion.

[01:05:16] And then this age of AI and continue to acceleration,

[01:05:21] reaching out as a human to another human is probably going to continue to

[01:05:27] be a more and more rare occurrence.

[01:05:29] So I think that's a great,

[01:05:31] great book suggestion given that speaking of books,

[01:05:34] I recently read,

[01:05:35] if you guys want to check out hack proof that I'm holding up at the moment,

[01:05:39] uh,

[01:05:40] by Sergei,

[01:05:40] really good,

[01:05:41] uh,

[01:05:42] read to understand your backstory and more about what's going on.

[01:05:47] Something I might recommend you hand to your clients to really understand

[01:05:50] what they're up against and why.

[01:05:53] Um,

[01:05:54] so,

[01:05:54] uh,

[01:05:55] definitely check out Sergei's book.

[01:05:56] You can find it on Amazon and wherever else you find the books.

[01:06:00] Sergei,

[01:06:01] tell how folks,

[01:06:02] uh,

[01:06:02] could find you online.

[01:06:04] Sure.

[01:06:04] Um,

[01:06:05] LinkedIn,

[01:06:05] sergeipulteve.com,

[01:06:07] uh,

[01:06:08] or my website,

[01:06:09] sergeipulteve.com on LinkedIn.

[01:06:11] Um,

[01:06:12] my book can be,

[01:06:13] and be bought on Amazon or by going to hackproofbook.com,

[01:06:18] hackproofbook.com.

[01:06:20] Awesome.

[01:06:20] This has been a gift.

[01:06:21] Thank you so much for being on MSP Mindset.

[01:06:24] Thank you,