Struggling with Talent? This Hiring Mindset is a Game Changer

[00:00:00] I don't like the dogmatic approaches like okay we're looking for a college degree

[00:00:04] we're looking for X years of experience and so forth and so on exactly what I

[00:00:09] think we want to start looking for is what did the person do to get them where

[00:00:15] they are today

[00:00:20] guys I'm super excited to have Zeke Lopez on the show today so a quick

[00:00:28] thing about Zeke he's a not only a friend and a coach but he's the founder of

[00:00:33] something called People Oxygen and they are the talent firm for small business

[00:00:38] owners so if you're listening that's probably you and his work revolves

[00:00:42] around one belief your people are the human operating system of your

[00:00:47] business so we share that which is basically the people are what matter

[00:00:51] and everything else comes from that so Zeke is somebody that really really

[00:00:58] knows what he's talking about and my assessment of Zeke that is not official

[00:01:02] it's kind of part like data scientists part understanding humans like

[00:01:08] psychologists and and so just welcome Zeke I like to call you my mad

[00:01:14] scientist that understands people and so welcome to the show yeah thanks that

[00:01:22] made me feel very welcome mad scientist data person psychologist but

[00:01:27] yeah I appreciate that they're glad to be here well from my experience people

[00:01:35] really really matter and I I will just say first hand I didn't always get

[00:01:40] that so I just telling myself I was the guy that was like huh can I find

[00:01:46] somebody else's job description copy and paste I would change the company

[00:01:51] name I would do that much so I found out the hard way that doesn't work

[00:01:56] so tell me if I'm building my company I'm building my MSP why why do I need to

[00:02:04] have a different mindset than that and what is what does that mean to make

[00:02:08] people the human operating system yeah the human operating system idea kind of

[00:02:15] sounds really mechanical right where you press this button and this

[00:02:19] output happens but when you think about it everything is mindset especially

[00:02:25] for MSPs so that idea of a mindset is really to come to like one fundamental

[00:02:33] idea I call it brains over bucks is you have to basically get down to the

[00:02:41] nitty gritty idea that has to become a way of life otherwise if you're

[00:02:46] inconsistent people are not going to believe you or trust you right so the

[00:02:50] brains over bucks idea is really like people and all their messiness you're

[00:02:55] hiring a brain that really is quite talented but yeah they have warts and

[00:03:00] bumps and rather than resisted in fight the mindset is do two things really

[00:03:05] well first of all before you hire those people learn as much as you can

[00:03:11] about the person don't be perfect right that's the greatest leverage point

[00:03:14] cost the least money gives you the greatest advantage if you can't do

[00:03:19] that and they're already in your business and they've either started to work in a

[00:03:22] way that you don't like then you need to find a way to go back to how can I make

[00:03:27] it easy there from the succeed because I understand how they are and how I am

[00:03:32] so that's the mindset right brains over bucks right and and that's something

[00:03:36] that if you think about it how many times do you interact at work

[00:03:41] thousands not hundreds not tens not just Monday thousands of times so you

[00:03:46] can't fake it you can't do it part time there's no thinking that's right

[00:03:50] there's no masking it so that's what I mean by mindset and I think you just

[00:03:54] start with that as a basic and kind of uncover your own mindset and then work

[00:04:00] with those elements okay yeah and it just doesn't been so on her right we've

[00:04:05] probably all heard you are the product or the average of the five folks around

[00:04:11] you and the reality for a lot of your hires either early hires or leadership

[00:04:16] they're going to spend more time with you than anybody so these you're inviting

[00:04:19] these people in your inner circle so you want to learn I think a lot about them

[00:04:26] have you ever wondered if you could recover your backups me ask a better

[00:04:31] question have you ever had a backup failed to recover have you ever lost

[00:04:35] data yeah that's me here's what's crazy 58% of recovery is failed to

[00:04:40] recover so if you think it's just you you couldn't be more wrong what are we

[00:04:45] going to do about that well you've got two options inter-survive what we do what

[00:04:50] we exist to do is test your backups and manage them for you we test every

[00:04:55] volume every single day we do weekly testing monthly testing and quarterly

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[00:05:04] and the data management to our team that monitors your backups for you

[00:05:08] it's time to level up your backup one way you can do that is visit

[00:05:11] servosy.com slash learn more if you'd like to take the process that I've

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[00:05:24] description or visit servosy.com slash learn more

[00:05:31] so let's him listening and I go yes I struggle to find people

[00:05:36] yes I put up a description that somebody gave me as a template I've hired

[00:05:41] somebody they didn't work out and it just feels like this maybe it's just me

[00:05:46] saying this just feels like that you can invest a ton of time and still not

[00:05:49] know what you're doing still not know who you're getting so where do we start

[00:05:52] you mentioned start start with something like what's what's a practical

[00:05:56] example of how I could take one step in the right direction well like we said

[00:06:01] earlier at least you know my experience is we always stop start the same as

[00:06:07] the mindset and when I think so what we do with the mindset is we start with

[00:06:11] recall kind of the origin mindset you as an original the owner right because

[00:06:16] everything springs eternal from the owner as long as they're running the

[00:06:20] business and so we go through it just basically one or two steps to try to

[00:06:25] find what is your mindset related to people and people problems right it's

[00:06:31] like you said hey you know a job description copy and paste well I get it

[00:06:36] right you're busy you have things that you're working on but in my mind that

[00:06:41] goes back to the mindset brains over box it's like huh if really this hire is

[00:06:47] going to be that important to me so if the step one once you get the mindset

[00:06:51] step two for small businesses is what I call the core three you're going to

[00:06:55] need three people that really will determine your next level of success

[00:07:00] one is who's heading up sales two is who just managing the money because you

[00:07:05] always want to know what you have and what you don't have from an accounting

[00:07:08] and finance point of view and number three who's going to deliver on your

[00:07:13] promise that's the operational side so if you look at those three as the

[00:07:17] foundation so the first thing is get those three really solid if you

[00:07:23] don't what's going to happen is typically my clients they're one of the three

[00:07:26] or all of the three right and so not going to go too far just because you have

[00:07:32] so much energy and because quite honestly it gets frustrating to do all three

[00:07:37] jobs most likely you're really good at one and not the other two

[00:07:41] so that's step one right step to mindset and then the core three

[00:07:46] once you get that working then you want to just have a process for working

[00:07:52] with people that's simple right so you can do in small steps because I very rarely

[00:07:58] come across someone who's going to stop everything and say hey we're going to

[00:08:03] focus on this you have to do what we're talking about in addition to your

[00:08:08] normal work between you know eight and seven whatever your time frame is

[00:08:11] so design the plan to be simple and I mean that just accomplish specific

[00:08:17] steps and when you achieve it and I also call this the boring step

[00:08:22] this is the non-sixie step right it's like what I have to develop some ways of doing this

[00:08:28] it's the boring step because again most business owners going back to the origin

[00:08:33] mindset right we can see it it shows up like I got excited to start the

[00:08:37] business because I believe the way people

[00:08:41] serviced and acknowledged technology was all wrong right or I believe that the

[00:08:45] company so you can see step three is the boring step as I refer to it

[00:08:50] because no one's going to see it yeah it's hidden you know I don't know if you come across this a

[00:08:56] lot but my experience is no one truly knows all the hard work a business founder and owner puts in

[00:09:05] to get to where they are today yeah they see where they are today and they say oh they're

[00:09:08] driving a nice car they take multiplications they have a nice house they have you know money

[00:09:13] to spend but if you talk to them and get to know them that's why the origin story is so important

[00:09:18] you find out like what you had to sell a house when you couldn't make payroll or sell something you

[00:09:23] owned yes you put their salary before your own yeah yes you would tolerate someone who stole

[00:09:31] money from you and then find a way to get him out of the business but you couldn't throw him

[00:09:35] out right away yes like one of my MSP clients is in the let's call it central north part of

[00:09:42] california so I won't divulge their name or location he had one employee that really knew

[00:09:48] cloud computing really well in cloud storage the owner himself was really focused on selling and

[00:09:55] getting new clients and what began to happen is that employee figured it out and he held

[00:10:02] like my client hostage like more money creating his own work hours just wouldn't share

[00:10:10] information so we could train someone else so that's a classic example of the boring work you mean

[00:10:16] I have to tolerate this guy I said yeah until we find a replacement and you feel confident right we

[00:10:22] can't we can't throw the business out with this guy so that's the that's why I call it the

[00:10:28] boring the hidden part that people don't see yeah so what you're saying is it starts with

[00:10:36] the founder it starts with their origin story absolutely it starts with what they find valuable

[00:10:42] and that should pour into all the way at the beginning even the job description what you're

[00:10:47] looking for while you're looking for it is that what you're saying yeah I mean well yes I mean

[00:10:53] first of all if you use somebody else's job description you're probably going to miss

[00:10:58] the mark and hire some hire a brain you didn't want that's right really yeah right so I've done

[00:11:03] that but I you know it's but I get it it's if you don't have that right mindset you're just not

[00:11:09] going to do it right so that's the the shalange yeah well in my experience I'm busy and I especially

[00:11:19] being a technical founder I think all I need is to list those things that they need to do

[00:11:25] you know so there was a reddit thread in msp subreddit and it was just I'm looking for this

[00:11:33] I don't know if it was service delivery manager or something like that and where are some good templates

[00:11:38] where can I find this and you know there he got good answers in terms of here's where you can

[00:11:44] find this template and that template and the the rmm and the ps a they provide you know some of

[00:11:49] those half templates for each just like you're I said I downloaded one and it's like here's all

[00:11:54] the 42 common roles and msp might have on the way to scale and here's all their job descriptions

[00:12:00] um and maybe that gives you some food for thought around responsibility or what they might manage but

[00:12:09] I think just kind of come back to the first part when you're growing you're busy

[00:12:13] and you know you need another head and you need to go make a hire and even if you think okay I

[00:12:18] care about people I want the right people I'm with the right brains I just can say personally

[00:12:24] I've made that mistake of saying I guess what others do works just get another job description

[00:12:29] and copy it and put it out there so I guess let's get into the deeper part why does doing the same

[00:12:36] thing that everybody else does not produce any different result uh if I just copy and copy

[00:12:43] and why you know why can I not do that yeah so I I guess uh I'm gonna expose some of my

[00:12:53] ideas here but I like the movie The Matrix right and Morpheus turns to the hero in the movie and says

[00:13:01] you know you got the old red and blue pill but there was something else he said in the movie that

[00:13:05] really struck out of my mind that told the story it's one thing to know the path that's another

[00:13:11] thing to walk the path and that's where the hardship is like all the many I've not yet

[00:13:20] met a business owner who's not a smart person right you know I've not yet met a business owner who didn't

[00:13:25] know what to do like when I say hey you've got to put more like they knew that I'm not telling

[00:13:30] you anything you didn't know what they didn't know how to do is walk that path being themselves

[00:13:37] right and so this really applies to the whole industry of information selling and coaching and

[00:13:42] training it's like super easy for me to say here's the path and give you the map give you

[00:13:48] the job description template give you the compensation template that's abundant and why the reason why

[00:13:55] they don't work is there's no such thing as an average person you know they don't exist it's a

[00:14:02] fallacy right right and much of the advice that are being given to other people is really based on

[00:14:09] what someone read in a book best practice and and people that are well intentioned don't get me

[00:14:15] wrong they're well intentioned but how many times do you go to a website and look up a company and

[00:14:20] say here's all our failings for last year right here's what didn't go well for us you don't see it right

[00:14:25] so it's the old you know know the path walk the path and we've been talking about walking the path

[00:14:31] that's what holds people back and it's pretty much 90 of the time it's emotional it's not a logical

[00:14:40] knowing something or having the skill it's just actually investing emotionally and making sure

[00:14:47] that's the way it should work right so any so that's that's at least my belief why there's

[00:14:53] that disconnect and why you know everybody says this cliche of oh the people are most valuable

[00:14:59] asset well yeah you know but it's a cliche it's like okay how do I do that where do I start

[00:15:05] and so if you own a business isn't that really what you own is a set of ideas

[00:15:11] that your heart's really behind right who else would start a business you know

[00:15:16] you were probably told some popular or wouldn't work you doubted yourself no one was taking the

[00:15:21] path so who does that right who decides to cover come all of that well someone who just feels

[00:15:27] like they don't have any other choice that's right that's the power of learning to walk the

[00:15:32] path because over time what happens everything changes right you're not the company of five people now

[00:15:38] you're at 10 your clients keep evolving the market changes so that's how do I keep evolving with that

[00:15:45] but not lose who I am right that's that's the question because think about compensation issues

[00:15:52] like someone said I need $180,000 otherwise I can't work here like you think about really

[00:15:58] when I started this I was lucky to like just meet my basic bills so yeah anyway so going back to the

[00:16:04] original question it's really about the reason why people know the path i.e. high acquired templates

[00:16:10] get information they don't walk it it's because it's hard to do and they themselves don't know

[00:16:17] how am I gonna feel when I'm on the path that's what they need help in figuring out

[00:16:22] and then devising a system that works with it not for someone else right yeah yeah a lot to unpack

[00:16:30] there so you got to walk the path you gotta if you really truly believe that people are the

[00:16:36] differentiator then you probably shouldn't do the same thing everybody else does and I

[00:16:43] mostly most people I'll talk to now have realized that they used to they felt like sales and

[00:16:49] marketing was their top constraint and now they're telling me it's talent I can't find enough

[00:16:53] talent or I can't keep the talent or I can't get enough talent in certain areas or all of those so

[00:17:01] what is it what is the next step I should take and say how do I start to really walk the walk

[00:17:08] and make talent the priority instead of you know something I do only after I've realized

[00:17:16] we're out of capacity and it's time to hire um and uh and I go do my normal post-a job run some

[00:17:23] interviews you know get to the final three pick one yeah I mean great great question so I'll just

[00:17:28] tell you a real story so a few years back one of my clients approached me had like he was in

[00:17:35] what I called us self-made solopreneur stage he had five employees he was number six and

[00:17:42] he was doing very well like he was in a high stakes engineering type business that totally

[00:17:49] relies on people but he had maxed himself out and he was also starting to ask myself

[00:17:55] if I want to get out of this business I can't sell it to anybody who's going to want to buy

[00:17:59] right and plus um he had has ADHD so which has its own unique ways of thinking right

[00:18:13] so the first thing we did is when I met him he had already had challenges about hiring and

[00:18:19] firing people he basically thought most people are stupid right because they couldn't see how

[00:18:25] quickly he saw things and didn't have his background so the first thing we did is

[00:18:31] I talked to him about okay I have to prove to you that this can work right so the first thing

[00:18:38] I did was this might seem a little odd I asked to meet with his wife

[00:18:43] right it's not conventional right it's not right and so it's not it's and what you'll

[00:18:49] find out with unconventional people who knows them the best so I cut through all the snuff I said

[00:18:57] well you allowed me to do that he goes yeah sure and so she helped him like do many things like

[00:19:03] like standing between him and the five to six people she said well you know he really

[00:19:09] doesn't like working with these types of people so I got good information and it was

[00:19:14] believable because it came from his wife right so that's so wherever I can to get that believable

[00:19:20] information for you not for me it's for you right so we said okay the first thing we need to do is

[00:19:27] we need to hire your first of the core three he was the primary sales person he managed all the

[00:19:33] projects once he sold them he delivered operations and his wife did the books that was kind of the

[00:19:38] design so in his case the first person we hired was someone to manage the day-to-day

[00:19:46] got you right okay so the operations bucket or operations yeah so we did that just because

[00:19:53] without creating that free time he couldn't even begin to think about anything else okay and

[00:20:00] what I found out which I didn't know I made a mistake back then was this we went through three

[00:20:06] general managers operations managers here's what I found out he didn't want to pay any money to any

[00:20:13] one person unless they could pay for themselves so that means that operations the manager guess what

[00:20:19] he had to learn to sell too so what happened we did we went through three that were good managers

[00:20:28] but not good at selling and managing right well that's a pretty rarefied group right yeah

[00:20:33] the two both we we bumped into one and when we found that person the business grew from

[00:20:42] five million then it went to 13 then it went to 20 and now we're at a plateau of 30 and that took

[00:20:50] a period of three to four years wow during that time we built the core three we found

[00:20:56] we promoted the sales operational manager to a general manager role but with a focus on sales

[00:21:04] we went out and found an operations manager and then on the accounting side we went through

[00:21:10] and found a person who really understood finance and accounting but here's what we did

[00:21:17] we changed the whole interviewing process so the way we did that was I asked them do I have

[00:21:23] your permission to when we find that short list of people we want to work with to tell them how you

[00:21:30] really are and what you think I love that and he said yeah go ahead and so we actually let people

[00:21:37] know up front this is what the owner believes these are the quirks this is where they're

[00:21:43] headed as a group this is why they're headed as a group is that something that you can

[00:21:48] stand up for and when we did that turned out like we created as a byproduct a performance culture

[00:21:57] he totally you know I won't mention numbers but let's just say his GM makes probably in the top

[00:22:06] 1% of people and that's because we blended the people side with then also taking everything

[00:22:13] we learned about the owner and started to share it with the marketing side oh wow because it's one

[00:22:19] in the same yeah that identity spills out into the people you hire in the message you deliver

[00:22:25] it to the market so that's that's how we did it interesting so just there's a lot there

[00:22:31] to unpack but you you helped understand the owner how they were getting in their own way

[00:22:37] you had to figure out how to free up their time which I that speaks to me

[00:22:41] uh of having to get out of my own way first of all second of all free having to free up their time

[00:22:47] and but ultimately you changed the interview process to once you got to a shortlist really

[00:22:55] expose what's going on right probably a little bit uncomfortable compared to the normal right

[00:23:00] the normal one is like here's our company go look at our stuff on the website or

[00:23:05] some missions I think it's much worse than that I think I mean it looks my experiences

[00:23:11] when you're trying to recruit someone new first of all what are you looking for

[00:23:16] you know that's trying to get that we clean that up right no more the general job description

[00:23:22] template stuff right so we clean that up the second piece was just think put yourselves

[00:23:27] in the shoes of a candidate for a second right and let's say true story you're you're hiring a

[00:23:35] very successful person to become your day-to-day operations manager going to manage the operations

[00:23:44] which now consist of you know 20 30 people right what's the typical approach you never tell them

[00:23:52] about anybody who came before them it's that's failed right you only highlights the great

[00:23:59] aspects of the job but what's the greatest fear that the manager has not about themselves

[00:24:04] they trust their ability it's about am I going to fit in here right right so we change that process

[00:24:10] so now that we change the interview process we also change and ask them a focus in the interview

[00:24:16] process we said hey like I just told you like what's your greatest concerns that keeps you from

[00:24:22] really feeling you could play wholehearted in a company it's what I said it's like

[00:24:26] I know myself I know my skills I trust them I I know how to do it well I just don't

[00:24:31] know the people I don't know the owner very well so we change that exchange so it wasn't so much

[00:24:38] you know everything's beautiful it goes back to what I said earlier right it's it always comes

[00:24:44] back to know the path walk the path we were now helping candidates walk the path because we weren't

[00:24:51] afraid of what we're trying to do we weren't afraid of our quirks and our weaknesses and being

[00:24:55] different it became our champion for advantage so you can you see how it's spilling out and

[00:25:01] all to these little actions as we go along the way yeah so you took the part where normally the company

[00:25:07] there's nothing you open up you don't open up the kimono at all right you're just

[00:25:12] spoiler plate and I'm making this up but like one of the things that I think if you want to

[00:25:18] transform yourself you have to get naked and what I mean by that is you're you have to show

[00:25:24] people the truth the vulnerability the things you don't want and and so you know in a certain way

[00:25:31] it sounds like you know you came in and said here's our issues here's the turnover here's the

[00:25:34] challenges here's the here's the people you'll work with and they're they're real people they're

[00:25:39] not theoretical perfect people that only bring perfect things with them when they come uh and

[00:25:47] um I love that right because I just as a if I were the candidate I would feel far more uh

[00:25:54] either attracted or repelled which is probably a win right for them because they're a person you

[00:26:00] want to you want to be successful I mean there's nothing like you know I've been in

[00:26:06] living rooms of many an entrepreneur and I've seen them write half a million dollar bonus checks

[00:26:11] taxes paid to their whole leadership team each one and you know if that sounds like a foreign idea

[00:26:19] to your audience I just want to be here to tell you I think it's realistic you know I've experienced

[00:26:27] it and it's because remember going back to what we said it's the people once you get to a certain

[00:26:33] size that have to drive the success because you can only do so much yourself yeah right so

[00:26:40] when you can share the benefits see their kids go to college see them take vacations get new cars buy a

[00:26:46] home to me that's a very personal level real concrete achievement right absolutely and so it sounds

[00:26:56] hard to do I'm not saying everybody has to do that I'm just saying like to me that's what makes

[00:27:01] small business ownership so great right it's way it's organic you can see the people and their

[00:27:07] lives being impacted and I'm not against big business but I think it loses some of its value you become

[00:27:13] more machine-like right you have a thousand people like you might not even know the names of like

[00:27:19] you know 10 percent of the people because there's no time there's no there's no energy span yeah

[00:27:25] and that's where I think you know of recent there's layoffs and you know but they're

[00:27:30] dressed up in words like reduction in force of you know only only eight percent but you know

[00:27:36] if that's a thousand that's still 80 people and when you're in a small business you don't call it

[00:27:40] that you call it I screwed up and I'm you know and you know the people that you have to go to if

[00:27:45] you ever are in that situation and you're probably sacrificing your salary and your own self to make

[00:27:50] sure that doesn't happen so there's a real relationship there the funny thing is in my

[00:27:55] experience most MSPs I've worked with they have that heart they will go to bat for their team

[00:28:00] they are super loyal sometimes to a fault but yet we all sit here in the interview process and act

[00:28:07] like every other company big or small instead of saying you know I am looking for somebody to join me

[00:28:14] and spend you know a decade building this out and here's why and here's what I you know

[00:28:19] here's more specifics of what I'm looking for I'm not just looking for yet another

[00:28:25] you know service delivery person or manager or whatever the role is I'm looking for somebody

[00:28:31] that to help us grow and like I was saying earlier that's part of your war you're going to spend so

[00:28:37] much time with them they're part of your inner circle what do you what do you realize that yet

[00:28:41] or not yeah I think that's the you know we talked about this a little earlier that's the

[00:28:48] hidden item isn't it you know when because of the mindset you I know you understand that and

[00:28:57] you believe that and you act with it but it's it can be certainly elusive you know absolutely

[00:29:03] it's hard but I think that's why I call it an advantage it's because it is hard to do

[00:29:10] right and so it's not for everybody you know I you know I want to be

[00:29:14] upfront with people it's hard to do but if you want it to become your advantage

[00:29:21] right and you know part of that origin mindset that we talked about is just understanding

[00:29:27] like what does an advantage really mean for you right it doesn't mean more margins

[00:29:33] does it mean less competition does it mean less heavy-handed selling because people see

[00:29:39] that as an advantage right so they really has a tremendous impact there but like I said it's

[00:29:47] you know the oh he's the same tension it's the brain over the box you know it's like

[00:29:52] uh you gotta you wrestle with it yeah the I found it interesting though because I feel like

[00:30:01] a lot of the things around hiring are when you're small business you may not know what that

[00:30:06] what all the the hires look like so you go and you pattern after others and they give you

[00:30:11] an org chart and you feel like you've got to hire just the way that org chart looks and then you get

[00:30:17] job description you know there's all these things from the org chart to the job descriptions to the

[00:30:21] roles to their responsibilities all these things that are a boilerplate and especially if you're

[00:30:29] growing and you're you know and you're a smaller company you might think that's the only

[00:30:34] way to do it because others you know they they built a 50 person working you're a five person

[00:30:40] working you're like well what did your org chart look at look like at this stage or what whoever

[00:30:44] you're hiring next and but on the other end of that spectrum most of the owners when I know I know

[00:30:51] they want their employees to come with them come to them and talk to them open I have an issue

[00:30:55] with this whether it's how we're handling tickets to what's going on my personal life most of them

[00:31:00] they're not trying to to uh to pry but they want to know the actual people and but I find it interesting

[00:31:08] now that we you know talk through that the hiring process doesn't reflect that right the hiring

[00:31:13] process is generally not opening up not being vulnerable um not only on the candidate side but

[00:31:19] I'm talking about as the we're putting on masks is what we're doing that's exactly that's well

[00:31:23] said I put on my mask as a candidate you put on your mask as the hiring authority and then

[00:31:28] we hope that that's gonna work but now when you're describing uh um hope isn't a finger audience I call

[00:31:35] it the BS in the dogma of understanding how to hire people especially the unconventional ones

[00:31:42] right it's the the dogma is there's just one way to do it and you just described it right it's

[00:31:49] it's um but when you think about it is if you want to stand out you want to create an

[00:31:55] advantage well you really can't do what everybody else is doing if you want to identify candidates

[00:32:01] that stand out or are different you can't really do what everybody else is doing that's right right so

[00:32:07] and so here comes the dogmatic side part of and you know the HR world is that's the way

[00:32:15] they're been trained right and so I'm not I don't want to hold their I think their hearts are

[00:32:20] right but I want to hold them to account for that just because that's the way they teach them

[00:32:25] in school sure that's the way they see on podcasts and and webinars and the same for the small business

[00:32:31] owner right I mean you know some of my clients never went to college some of them they never

[00:32:38] intended to manage people be people managers they just loved what they knew how to do better

[00:32:44] right so so really and then if you're trying to sell to that audience right whether it's

[00:32:51] HR or business owners what do you do you create a product that can scale that can reach the masses

[00:33:01] well I'm saying don't do that right unless your goal is to be even you're bigger you don't have

[00:33:07] to do that but there's so much pressure when you're bigger to do it it goes back to the

[00:33:12] brains over bucks idea again but as someone who's going to have you know 20 to 50 people

[00:33:19] pushing up to 100 people don't do it yeah don't fall for the seduction of the dogma right and and

[00:33:28] don't treat the people like they don't know what they're doing really this is they don't any better

[00:33:31] right how they haven't experimented they haven't tried failed or succeeded because they too are

[00:33:37] believing the story I have to put my mask on I make no mistakes I'm perfect I'm efficient with

[00:33:42] my time and you know I'm never going to let you down well I've yet to meet someone like that yeah

[00:33:50] and if I did I would probably imagine it would be at a great cost to them personally and the

[00:33:53] people around them right so really what we're back to is learning how to work with a mess yeah

[00:34:00] that's really and being totally real and accepting but always trying to make it better

[00:34:08] knowing that there's an advantage there and that advantage will translate into bucks

[00:34:14] because you had brains and you value the brain yeah well sorry a little passionate there about

[00:34:20] no I love it I love it well I mean the reality that we may not phrase it this way but we're

[00:34:25] all if we're hiring we have a problem that we need somebody to come in and take ownership of

[00:34:32] and that's the truth I mean we dress it up in a fancy title on this but like there's

[00:34:36] something that either I can't do don't have enough time to do whatever the situation is

[00:34:41] I'm not skilled enough to do and I have a problem and I need you to join me and we're not going to

[00:34:46] grow and it's not when you're when you're a solo entrepreneur the one it's literally you but

[00:34:52] when you get three four five or more it's not it's not just you it's everybody you know the

[00:34:57] whole company will not level up because uh because you can't install that next one of those

[00:35:04] quarter three or what that next person is and I love what you said like it just struck me that

[00:35:10] you know we have a mask on you have your mask and I've got my mask and maybe that works great for

[00:35:17] a party for a costume party and if that's all you're going to do and interact with somebody

[00:35:21] short term fine but that at a party you know if you see somebody once okay whatever

[00:35:27] they saw you once but if you were going to spend this many hours with somebody

[00:35:32] day in and day out and they're going to build such an important part and interact with so many of your

[00:35:38] of your team of your clients whatever that is that's not you know that's not going to work it

[00:35:44] maybe you connect to um I had somebody that said that the hiring process that we use

[00:35:49] they're like it's so thorough they're like I feel like it's uh more like uh I mean like

[00:35:56] they're like I feel more it's more like dating or something like you're really getting to

[00:35:59] know people before you hire and they were like a little alarmed and also impressed I think but just

[00:36:05] a little bit like wow and I think there's just something to like there is an analogy there

[00:36:09] of like you might we all show up to a party dressed in our best making our best impression

[00:36:15] with the mask on and maybe that's okay for if that's your only interaction but if you're

[00:36:20] going to really work with people and then you're gonna have to build a relationship um

[00:36:26] yeah I think that's great the way you said it I love that it's you know but there's a fundamental

[00:36:32] truth that underlies everything that we talk about and at the end of the day if you run a business

[00:36:39] the people will always be there yeah so do you want people that you want to work with or don't

[00:36:45] you you know so we're not going to get away or we can't avoid this idea and escape it you

[00:36:51] know because I get it it's hard right but at the end of the day you require people as you said right

[00:36:59] to to not only join the team but to help you retain energy as an owner right to help you have

[00:37:07] confidence to help you like those nights when you're saying you know I've heard this too it's

[00:37:13] like you know what Zeke it might be easier for me to shrink back to the size and I won't make

[00:37:19] as much money but man it'll be a lot easier yes and again no argument against that you know I'm not

[00:37:24] going to say it's right or wrong but well I will say it goes back to that that origin mindset is that

[00:37:31] really what you wanted and typically it's when the the owner business owner finds himself or herself

[00:37:37] in that tough spot where oh man this is hard right like the person said to you oh that's

[00:37:43] like dating someone I don't you know I hope dating's fun you know they didn't know long time but it's

[00:37:48] certainly gonna be revealing yeah and so why hide from it you know why try to avoid it so

[00:37:55] exactly anyway exactly yeah I uh I love that and I love that um you know you have to be more

[00:38:03] vulnerable I think it's a lot like a relationship relationship if you're vulnerable you will get

[00:38:09] to know people more than when you always have your mask on and I think even in the hiring process

[00:38:16] that translates and something struck me just you said Zeke was the owner just thought maybe

[00:38:23] want to shrink back and in my experience personally you're going to hit a pain line as an owner

[00:38:29] you're gonna hit a few but like you're gonna hit you won't grow past the pain line

[00:38:33] because at a certain point if you haven't hired some of these core roles and delegated

[00:38:37] and in how trustworthy people that own it you're just not going to grow anymore right you won't keep

[00:38:43] growing through that because it's too painful you're working too many hours it's too stressful

[00:38:49] you feel like you haven't gotten the right people to take ownership and just speaking

[00:38:54] some of this made most of these mistakes um even if you think even when I thought

[00:39:00] people are the strategic asset you still get to the point where you're like why am I carrying

[00:39:05] half the balls when there's you know 10 other people or why can they not see this because I haven't

[00:39:13] you know made that vision clear and I haven't set responsibility why um why can I not find this

[00:39:18] right person because I didn't help put enough effort into it because there's all these things

[00:39:22] I've talked to a lot of owners that have made this mistake and then they lose people left and

[00:39:27] right they have they have you know really high turnover um and then the folks they hire

[00:39:33] they feel like they don't get it they can't ramp up and you know I think some of that has to do with

[00:39:37] hiring the wrong people and some of that certainly has to do with um giving them no process no

[00:39:44] onboarding no you know there's no um you're giving you're giving them a straight cliff with

[00:39:50] no anchor points um and while you somehow ascended that most people um can't so uh so just

[00:40:00] I just love how you know you got to get this right you got a and I think there's a there's a

[00:40:05] hard part of going I get it people are valuable um and I and I would say everybody listening

[00:40:11] probably agrees with that because when you find them you're just like this is amazing but where

[00:40:16] I struggle maybe where if you're listening you struggle like how do I go from believing it

[00:40:23] how do I go from like I've found a person but like where I struggled for a long time is I

[00:40:27] found somebody not because of great process not because I had figured it all out you know just

[00:40:34] it was a blessing so how do I turn that into something more replicable and I don't mean

[00:40:42] I'm not talking about skill I just mean how do I intentionally find somebody that is the good

[00:40:47] fit instead of um doing all the normal things hiring for average people with an average process

[00:40:55] and anything up with an average or worse outcome um so what are your thoughts how do I

[00:41:00] how do I start to think about what I need to change in my in myself and in my yeah let's

[00:41:04] start with just like how do I hire a person that's going to be additive to me and to the company

[00:41:14] let's just start with that so a really good part is like you referenced it you said kind of the

[00:41:21] job description which is really what I call the straw man's version of a perfect person you know all

[00:41:28] these attributes they have to have right and let's make it super simple right and let's make it so

[00:41:33] simple that it puts the odds in our favor right so typically so I don't like the dogmatic

[00:41:41] approaches like okay we're looking for a college degree we're looking for x years of experience

[00:41:46] and so forth and so on exactly what I think you want to start looking for is what did the person do

[00:41:54] to get them where they are today now now that sounds simple and it is but it could be as simple as

[00:42:00] and you can attest to this is a person living with their parents in their basement who loves

[00:42:05] technology and builds network computers out of old computers from someone else right

[00:42:10] okay now typically you wouldn't even look for that kind of information but when you're looking for

[00:42:17] someone to be a technologist in your company well wouldn't that be a good idea right to find

[00:42:24] someone who like putting computers together that's their reputation in their family

[00:42:31] that would work right right or you know or how about hiring someone that's been in whole

[00:42:38] foods for five years and you know for some strange reason why did they stay there like

[00:42:44] and so a normal dogmatic approach is oh those people we don't want them you know look they

[00:42:49] live with their parents or they don't have this or that but if you look at what were they doing

[00:42:55] during that time with their spare time what are they going to do anyway whether you're

[00:43:00] telling them to do it that's what we want to look for right so it can be that simple

[00:43:06] right like that's one tool that if you just open your mind to that you know we um my client

[00:43:12] that I mentioned that hired the GM that they really took him out he was working in a wholesale

[00:43:19] how do I say this so it doesn't get back wedding dress company what they did is they bought

[00:43:25] wedding dresses and designed them now he had a project engineering company

[00:43:32] that's crazy now but when we talked to him remember going back to the interview process

[00:43:38] right we asked him like hey tell me about your past and so but what we didn't know he had all

[00:43:45] these other things wonderfully that he did and he just made a bad choice to be at a company and

[00:43:51] we won't go through specifics but he became the pivotal point in the core three that gave

[00:43:58] the time and energy to the owner to keep building because we now are the person that could do that

[00:44:03] going back to your question so that's what I would do simply is begin to look for

[00:44:09] not the static data points and resumes like I have MBA I have electrical engineering degree from

[00:44:17] whatever school that's okay there's nothing wrong with it it's okay but what you want to look

[00:44:22] what did it take for them to get there did they have to work a job at night right

[00:44:26] and pay for their own education right right you know what are they doing with their spare time

[00:44:32] and identify the patterns there and so it turned out this guy with the wedding dress company he worked

[00:44:38] for a very difficult owner so that caught my attention I said well hey tell me about that

[00:44:43] what was that like but his mindset wasn't like I didn't like the person I think that he just

[00:44:49] said you know what I tried it for a number of years clue get it quit right away and then he said

[00:44:56] I just couldn't like really identify with their style of doing business so I said ah check mark

[00:45:04] point plus yeah move him to the shortlist right yeah you see how that starts to build so that would

[00:45:11] be one simple way to do it that's before hire one simple way after hire is simple now stop trying to

[00:45:19] fix people just give it up don't try anymore figure out why are they doing what they're doing and can

[00:45:28] I eliminate those obstacles another true story in an engineering company they have what they call

[00:45:35] CAD designers and this one gentleman just came in late for work and he couldn't be there by the normal time

[00:45:43] and they threatened they conjoaled they did everything that's right like hey just come in couldn't do it

[00:45:50] so finally we had a cup of coffee you know and I said like hey what like what's getting in your

[00:45:55] way like what's going on he goes off you know I have a bad roommate situation and it's really

[00:46:01] getting me down and it tires me up and they sleep up late at night and I have to go into work so I said

[00:46:05] okay how can we help to reconfigure that so you see I didn't try to fix him and say hey you're wrong

[00:46:13] if you're going to get fired what I tried to do is understand the environment remove obstacles

[00:46:18] that's by the way that's the easiest way to help people do more of what you want them to do

[00:46:25] is don't fix them remove obstacles that are getting in their way you can't that's within your control

[00:46:32] okay so just on that one what is what did they end up doing like well what did you offer to

[00:46:38] what kind of obstacle did you help to remove did you offer to say let me can we get you

[00:46:41] your own apartment or uh no no no we said okay so basically we said this is if if you can't get

[00:46:51] good rest because he's a single guy and his roommates were having a good time or whatever

[00:46:57] we said well how about if we just give you a later starting time there you go right now what time would

[00:47:03] you need in order to come in and be come in at that time so that's what we did we gave him a

[00:47:09] later starting time which is by the way the company never did that before see that goes back to

[00:47:15] the brain over the bucks it's like no if I do that then everybody else is gonna ask it's

[00:47:19] gonna be a big mess right so we took a chance and so here's what happened and it's happening

[00:47:26] first I don't know if you ever are aware of like what's called um habit jumping you start one

[00:47:33] good habit then it leads to another good one well he started he was on time that was the

[00:47:38] good thing right so and he'd got his work done and then he sort of liked it and we started

[00:47:44] inviting him to what we call supervisor meetings which is another thing we created just to recognize

[00:47:51] and talk about hey how's it been supervising your small team and what he did he had joined the company

[00:47:57] as a solo person in that role because the company grew there was now four people in that group

[00:48:03] and he was the supervisor well guess what he never learned how to survive so we started

[00:48:09] supervising meetings okay what are your questions what are your struggles and so what happened then

[00:48:14] he started interacting better with the rest of the team so you can see like one good habit can

[00:48:20] leap to another but we're just kind of always going back to the basics of what we've been talking

[00:48:26] about all along right it's like if we tried to fix him we would say you know any number of things

[00:48:34] but we tried to work with him and understand that and then make accommodations for it and it works

[00:48:40] and but that's just not me that science and evidence based by the way it's not zyglopez's

[00:48:45] like wisdom there at all it's just uh i don't know if anybody knows daniel conerman in your

[00:48:51] audience like you know slow and fast thinking there were some interviews that he's conducted

[00:48:57] since then and basically they asked him like he's a Nobel prize winner right and he's a behavior

[00:49:03] economics scientist and so he said yeah there's there's one way to make it work well i jumped all

[00:49:10] over that when i read that said oh my gosh let's try this out and we did right so that would be

[00:49:15] that would just be one thing that's what happened with that employee and there's a lot of sometimes

[00:49:20] it doesn't work out you know what i mean sometimes you you work with people and you try to find

[00:49:25] remove obstacles and it doesn't work out most times you're going to find out those things

[00:49:31] are beyond your influencing control right so don't beat yourself up don't think you did something wrong

[00:49:37] the company's not a good place it's totally beyond your influencing control right so i love your

[00:49:44] expression i'm going to use that by the way the pain line idea there are certain places

[00:49:50] where you just draw a line and so the way i call them it's it's beyond your control and influence

[00:49:55] right and i don't i won't bore you with all the strange stories that i know there's

[00:49:59] really sometimes but yeah but that's you know that's a really powerful idea just know that

[00:50:05] the pain line's there know that you can push through it and here's the key as long as you

[00:50:10] can influence and control if you can't then you know what it's probably better to let them live

[00:50:16] that way somewhere else and work happily someplace else yeah yeah absolutely so i want to get back

[00:50:22] to your example you did something seems incredibly simple which is what we usually skip which is had a

[00:50:28] conversation with the person that was coming in late instead of just you know giving him a tick

[00:50:33] mark on his file for you know coming in later oh yeah all those sort of normal ways um what's uh

[00:50:43] how do you i guess how what are your recommendations for this seems reasonable

[00:50:48] versus this seems unreasonable or the business for the rest of folks because i think a lot of us will

[00:50:54] go well if i let one of my engineers let's say come in later then like what if they all want to come

[00:51:02] in and i need to service you know clients starting at eight not starting at 10 or 11 um

[00:51:08] you know so obviously one probably won't change the change that but even if half the

[00:51:14] the group decides to do that so obviously i think making that individual decision

[00:51:19] is based on the individual but in broad i guess in a broader one how do you determine if that seems

[00:51:24] like you have something within your your sphere of influence that could help them um

[00:51:32] is it you know just about anything do it give it a try how do you understand where

[00:51:36] well that one you know yeah no wonderful wonderful question right so in that situation that i brought

[00:51:45] up um they had attempted to talk the person to a better place right like hey you know what that's

[00:51:54] not good for you to come in late uh you're not going to get your work done it gives you a bad

[00:51:58] reputation how can you you know that's that's the logical rotor right okay so

[00:52:05] so the path they and again because i've worked with the client a long time and i know the employees

[00:52:11] they said z can you talk to them and so i didn't take that path and now my client doesn't take that path

[00:52:17] right and so the answer your question is like by the way one person all it takes is to impact

[00:52:24] the other four on the team to say i want to do that too so so we thought about that ahead of time

[00:52:32] you know we you know it's a it's a good question so here's what we said we said okay we made some

[00:52:36] requirements and conditions okay as long as you perform according to a standard that we both

[00:52:44] agreed to then yeah this is the way it'll be right so that's the beauty of it is remember i

[00:52:49] said it was a performance culture at that particular client we're willing to accommodate

[00:52:55] and work with you if you work with us right and it's a mutual working together and so just imagine

[00:53:03] so the worst thing could be a fortified people are all performing well but in their own unique ways

[00:53:09] well what's wrong with that right right so the argument could be well i can't replicate that

[00:53:14] right well yes you could if you understood it and you said okay how can i begin to more

[00:53:19] stabilize that right so that was what we did we put a condition on it we said because it's a definitely

[00:53:26] a performance culture throughout the entire company and it's based on that mutual understanding of

[00:53:32] you know what we now do lots of things to create that connection with each other like i mean there's

[00:53:39] no mystery around you want to make more money you want more responsibility well how are you

[00:53:44] going to do that in a business like make sure the clients value that make sure the business

[00:53:50] earns more money and you contribute but you get recognized that's the whole theory right it's like

[00:53:56] no by the way that's not that's not Nobel prize winning idea right it's just actually doing it

[00:54:03] because we had other challenges in the company like some of our new hires was hey can i wear

[00:54:08] headphones and play music while i work because sometimes they they work better right they

[00:54:13] the background noise lets them focus better well the first answer from the owner was no

[00:54:19] what i'm gonna do that i don't do that why should they hang and so but eventually we started working

[00:54:26] towards okay how do we allow people to do that right well they're not going to hear the phone

[00:54:31] ring how do they know someone else doesn't need them right so we started working on that so i

[00:54:37] i guess it all stems back to what you said like what could happen what may happen and we did

[00:54:43] it that's why i say small steps and always require to be a condition so all the parties win

[00:54:51] i love it i love it i love that how it's like we just said all the parties went right because so

[00:54:57] much of this is how do i as an employer just kind of get what i need and get in and get out and

[00:55:03] i think a lot of hiring sometimes just give me a job description so i can get some candidates

[00:55:09] and pick one of the three and then get back to business and i'm not saying they're bad but it just

[00:55:13] kind of is a get in get out and it's not i would say designed from the beginning

[00:55:18] for everybody to get what they're what they want um oh here's a great one now you're talking about

[00:55:25] it is so let's say everybody does what we talk about and they have and it works right well here's

[00:55:31] a scenario i never expected so bad on me something i i learned we had to innovate here it is

[00:55:38] we had a breakout year company reached revenue never seen before we paid out huge bonuses i mean

[00:55:48] really bonuses that you know when you go home to your family and say and they look at this

[00:55:53] is it yeah right on screen what can we do right but here's what we found out the following year

[00:56:00] the company leveled off so guess what we couldn't pay those bonuses because the company had a flat

[00:56:08] year and what do you think happened people started saying well what happened to my bonus i did a great

[00:56:15] job i performed right right and i earned this much right so i never expected that to be frank

[00:56:23] right so you know i made mistakes yeah and so we had to put our heads together and figure out

[00:56:29] okay what do we do now and so here's where a couple things worked in our favor the compensation

[00:56:36] processes we design are totally transparent meaning when we determine compensation we don't

[00:56:42] so i'll give you a number and say be warm and well fed now we say here's our research here's

[00:56:48] what we found out you go find out what you think you're worth we can pair notes right mutual win

[00:56:54] right so in this case we came up with the idea okay and so we met with the team we had separate

[00:57:01] meetings because the company's a little larger than and we discussed this because it was important

[00:57:05] to everybody right my bonus for next year and it wasn't as much as last year so then we came

[00:57:11] up the idea said okay so do you understand the concept we had a record year last year and you

[00:57:17] were rewarded for that and this year was flat because now we have to grow to the next level

[00:57:22] you know typically when you grow to mid-sized companies now you're no longer small you know up to

[00:57:27] 50 to 100 now your mid-size right and that creates its own unique complexities but what we did there

[00:57:34] is we said okay as we have great years what we're going to do is set aside money from the great

[00:57:41] years and a fund so you'll pay less of a bonus for that year but when we have a flat year

[00:57:49] it'll give you a steady increase over time now who does that right who does that as an employee

[00:57:58] who does it as an owner but it came as a result of a discussion right so it wasn't

[00:58:03] necessarily the employees were wrong it's human nature right hey i made this much last year i want

[00:58:09] to make even more next year but the innovation was going back to you know first principles

[00:58:15] and saying okay here's our first one or two principles how do we maintain that and so if we

[00:58:21] keep having great years well guess what the owner you can decide to pay it out sooner nice if you have

[00:58:27] a flat year guess what you can put more out of the fund so it was like so simple but yet it was

[00:58:35] non-dogmatic it wasn't the conventional way to think about it but what we also believe is

[00:58:43] we dare you to go out and find a better place to work than here right that's really what we're saying

[00:58:48] you know what so for me that gives me a great source of pride and confidence because i'm walking

[00:58:54] the walk here man you know what i mean i'm not just espousing stuff and hope it works i'm walking

[00:59:00] with you and you're walking with me so yeah this is awesome you're getting in the game it sounds

[00:59:04] like if you're getting in the game you're gonna get you're gonna get dirty you're gonna

[00:59:07] make mistakes you're gonna get hit that's me going actually you know what you know the guy that does dirty

[00:59:13] jobs and he gets in there and he's like a muck all over him and it smells right you know that's

[00:59:21] that's kind of a mark for me that you're really in it to win it you know not when it's all great

[00:59:27] and it's all fun you're in it to win it going back i'm going to use your idea the pain line

[00:59:33] when you hit that pain line it's like okay man i'm going to bear down i'm going to get dirty and

[00:59:37] muddy but i'm going to keep to my principles and i'm going to push through this so that's just my

[00:59:42] bias by the way that's my bias yeah no i love it no no and i guess you know what i've learned about

[00:59:47] that from others the pain this pain line is that's where you well you have to adapt you have to

[00:59:53] put in those core people yeah because you won't you won't grow past the pain line until you do

[00:59:59] something different you have to change your mindset and so wow for too long i've hit the pain

[01:00:05] line and just bounced off of it and i feel like it's anybody is as crazy as me it's like if you just

[01:00:11] floor it in a manual transmission or something like you're just gonna bounce right off the

[01:00:16] rev limiter over and over and that's not going to go any faster i love that i love that story

[01:00:22] yeah flooring it in neutral exactly like yeah you're not going any faster so you've got to figure

[01:00:29] out how that's been my experience i've always had to figure out why why am i doing this why am i still

[01:00:35] banging my head against this and figure out change how to change my mindset surround myself

[01:00:39] with the right people um speaking of which so how how do how do you help people

[01:00:46] zeke how do you help business owners see people as an asset what do you do specifically because

[01:00:52] now that people've listened to this and heard this i want to have a better understanding of how you

[01:00:55] help people um keeping in mind that i focus solely on small businesses right so uh i'm not necessarily

[01:01:05] banging on the door or looking for these long consulting engagements really depend on me for

[01:01:09] everything um the first thing i do is i kind of call it the the 90 minutes where um it cost

[01:01:19] the fixed amount of money and i i ask them for information to send it to me i have them take

[01:01:24] a set of assessments and in that 90 minutes what we try to address is go back to first principles

[01:01:31] like your mindset relative to people but i want to use evidence in your story because as you can

[01:01:37] see through our entire conversation today it kind of has its roots and everything you know it's

[01:01:41] not just one idea so that's the first thing i do and then i give i offer them part of that

[01:01:47] is like three to four weeks of follow-up right so we're on the phone for 90 minutes uh i did some

[01:01:54] work before that with them gathering information and then afterwards we follow up typically via email

[01:02:01] because i try to match the owner's schedule because they can't you know say i'm hey i'm

[01:02:05] going to give you a day right so that's that's one way we do it and typically what we're

[01:02:10] trying to do there is just get the mindset and come up with one or two basics and i also

[01:02:15] look at the financials of the company and where they are profit margin wise where they are marketing

[01:02:21] wise remember the core three right so i have to focus on the core three because it's all got to work

[01:02:26] in order to make money to do all this right so they give me information on that and that's kind

[01:02:31] of step one so that actually what they're doing is they have the right mindset and it and it

[01:02:36] answers the three big questions right how is that me do i want to do that how do i make money at

[01:02:41] this and how do i deliver on the promises that i've made to my people that's the first step

[01:02:47] and i keep it simple typically what that leads to is they say okay this works right i like this

[01:02:54] then we either try to find the people that are missing together right and that's another project

[01:03:00] if they want to do that or otherwise what we do is they may want a little bit more if they're

[01:03:07] emergency stage right where you know that pain line is like right front and center

[01:03:12] and they you know and those what the pain lines look like there is typically sales is not working for

[01:03:19] them and they think they have to let go of sales people in the team they don't know what to do

[01:03:24] right so in that sense we use the first step as sources of information and then we try to

[01:03:31] focus on what impact point with the people could we use to free that up so an example would be

[01:03:39] for me my clients you had to sell his way and his way of selling was sell the project

[01:03:45] serve the project collect the money on the project and then prospect all at the same time

[01:03:51] and he believed in them that was just his role and then through that second step process they said

[01:03:56] you know what we that's not going to work we're not going to find people that want to sell deliver

[01:04:01] on the promise collect the bill and prospect and guess what their income is going to go like this

[01:04:05] and like this and like this because when they're here it's because they're collecting and delivering

[01:04:11] on the promises so he said how about if we eliminate two steps out of that and just focus

[01:04:17] on someone who can sell and give them a distinctive way in a better sales pitch

[01:04:23] just so they can get in front of the right people and know what to say and how to conduct themselves

[01:04:29] and let's give the accounting and to somebody else well well and behold that work like I'm not

[01:04:34] saying that it's not magic it's just kind of reviewing what's there so that's kind of this

[01:04:39] the second and then this is only for larger companies they kind of make me part of their

[01:04:46] leadership team to represent the voice right so now they're probably upwards I don't go any

[01:04:51] higher than a few hundred people but now they need someone on the team who can talk business speak

[01:04:58] and people speak together because they don't respect HR people right they just don't think they

[01:05:04] they've ever been an entrepreneur or they don't understand financials whatever their origin

[01:05:09] beliefs are right so my job is to build a bridge there and really hold them accountable to what

[01:05:15] they told me with their team right so that's kind of the third phase and ultimately once they

[01:05:23] go on through that they can kind of do this on their own and just come back to use some of my

[01:05:28] tools if they you know on an ongoing basis but then just come back for refreshers that's it

[01:05:33] if they need it so or a big problem that they don't want to tackle on their own but I try to

[01:05:38] help them find their way to make it repeatable their way and not have to rely on me because

[01:05:45] you know people don't want to you know do that they want to like find ways to do it themselves so

[01:05:50] great yeah it sounds like you teach people how to get rid of you once you've taught them right

[01:05:54] you work yourself out of a job um and well yeah I mean I actually did that when I was

[01:06:01] building businesses myself that was weird that was one of my weird things I would tell

[01:06:07] I had two investor financed businesses and one I put a business plan together as part of the

[01:06:13] hiring process and I said and he goes like what's this over here and I said what do you mean he goes

[01:06:18] that's me training someone else and getting out and he said what do you mean why do you want to

[01:06:22] do that because I love building things that's what I love to do but I really don't like status

[01:06:29] quo very much it gets very um I get I blame myself if like things aren't growing I get really weird

[01:06:37] it's like okay what did I do wrong so but I do like building things and training someone that loves

[01:06:43] the day-to-day kind of maintenance and blocking and tackling you know I respect it but I'm just

[01:06:49] not that good at yeah yeah can relate to that so uh if you're listening you know I've worked

[01:06:55] I've had the pleasure of working directly with Zeke and uh I would say if you want a perspective

[01:07:02] of an entrepreneur that's been super helpful in my experience because it's not just a

[01:07:07] pie-in-the-sky HR person that like you said maybe I think couldn't relate but can very much

[01:07:12] relate so there's in my personal experience you've been really helpful understanding it

[01:07:17] within the context of the business not just I need to hire but why I need to hire what the

[01:07:21] timing is and why helping us figure out what makes us unique even um so that's been tremendous thank you

[01:07:29] for that Zeke and if you're listening don't miss out to take that opportunity and to work with Zeke

[01:07:35] I want to ask you one other thing and I want to highlight this because I think that

[01:07:39] this is important not only can he help you in in working with you directly and understanding

[01:07:43] your business but you have uh some everybody's familiar I say everybody people are familiar

[01:07:52] with different assessments whether they're strengths finder or disc or whatever it is and

[01:07:59] you're probably you may be using something in your hiring process and you've come up with

[01:08:03] your own assessments right so uh so if I don't know what you can say but I know that you do a

[01:08:10] lot of them and there's some interesting things that I found from using them so I don't know

[01:08:14] if there's anything you can say publicly about the number or or those sort of things but

[01:08:20] you're not a you're not an individual just with an entrepreneur background you know and

[01:08:26] that understands people but this is where I call you the mad scientist because you've got this

[01:08:30] like data brain and this huge uh assessment and you can see patterns and things that

[01:08:37] help you understand how to make hires that I have found super valuable so tell tell me about

[01:08:43] tell me about that yeah well yeah um I'm a stubborn guy and I don't like losing

[01:08:51] is what it is and so you know I was just very lucky to earlier you know my career just

[01:08:58] have the opportunity to build businesses right and and you know I I didn't always win

[01:09:04] in my job right so sometimes just to create 12 offices with venture money sometimes it was

[01:09:10] just to turn around a business and so what I realized was I was the problem

[01:09:18] you know and and one day I'll just uh so people so not to come in yet at one of my employees

[01:09:24] came up to me and said I hate working for you oh wow and she was my assistant I was in the

[01:09:30] software business then and they're like but I knew her and like we were really strong friends

[01:09:35] we went to the same church so I said what did I do what you know I'm not a screamer by nature

[01:09:41] here's what I found out which what I learned I had been traveling around the world um you could

[01:09:46] buy one-way tickets and hit seven cities and she said you're never with your family you're

[01:09:51] always working and by your own example you expect people to work like you and I was like

[01:09:58] oh I was devastated it's like that's like that's the guy I didn't want to be but I was him so

[01:10:05] I hired some consultants to help me and they used assessment tools so the first group of consultants

[01:10:12] didn't work second group consultants didn't work and so finally but the second group I made friends

[01:10:17] with them and they took me to a group of PhDs that actually design and create assessments

[01:10:23] and they've explained the assessment industry to me and I said oh my oh my gosh no wonder

[01:10:27] this is not working so what happened then is again remember stubborn guy who doesn't give up easily

[01:10:34] right wants to win I decided I'm going to learn statistics I'm going to learn why these things

[01:10:39] don't work and wound up just being really lucky I bumped into the right people the assessments

[01:10:46] I were using I found mistakes in them I contacted the assessment company and told them how to fix

[01:10:51] their mistakes they hired me to do their IP and now you know and not because of me at all but now

[01:10:59] they sell every month about half a million of those around the world right and so

[01:11:07] that's really made me what I am as I realized that for me the business part was easy to

[01:11:13] understand the people's part for the life of me was the most frustrating irrational hard but I took

[01:11:21] it personally you know it's like oh Zeke you're a failure you're not doing the job and I learned

[01:11:27] through all the trials and tribulations and I looked at the psychology I looked at the statistics

[01:11:33] I looked at other assessments and what I learned from all that again wasn't like intentional

[01:11:39] I was like pure gravitas I just said I'm not going to be me that's how I kind of became the quirky guy

[01:11:46] that I am today and so yeah I believe in assessment tools but what I want to tell those folks who

[01:11:54] you there's a variety of tools out there in the marketplace right always remember two things

[01:11:59] when it comes to assessment tools it's just a model of a person but not really the person

[01:12:05] but can it be good enough to give you an advantage to start from there right not to put people on a

[01:12:13] balance right because one of my assessments measures unconventionality as you know right I like your word

[01:12:20] better unicorns right it's those people that don't fit the dogmatic ways of finding people but wow

[01:12:27] they can make a big impact in the business but you have to understand that they even exist first

[01:12:31] right so that's how you know all that history has helped me so I would say if you're using other

[01:12:37] assessments chances are as long as you understand what they do and what they don't do they're not a

[01:12:45] magic black box for predicting success but they're useful as long as you know how to do that and

[01:12:51] that's you know a step in the right direction however one thing I've discovered to my happiness

[01:12:59] is that I started with the unconventional side of things first because I'm a quirky

[01:13:07] unconventional rule bender myself right remember I told you sorry about this person saying I hate

[01:13:12] you right it's like that's pretty strong words in my book right but that's where I started from

[01:13:17] so I wanted to understand like on all the business the the bucks side of the ledger

[01:13:24] I was like hey we were growing the business we're hiring new people we're opening offices

[01:13:29] in Australia and China so I was traveling all over but on the brain side it's like oh man what was I

[01:13:36] missing so I guess you know my business is really about that journey and helping people not do the

[01:13:43] stupid stuff that I did you know to to get through all that and maybe I can make it a little bit

[01:13:48] easier but at the end of the day can I help people feel like oh this is what I'm really good

[01:13:53] at man I'm not good at this so let me focus on this and help me create a way that I can replicate

[01:14:00] this for every person that I hire because you work too hard to do anything otherwise does that answer

[01:14:06] your question yeah I love that so my my you know in working with you also just kind of summarizing

[01:14:10] right if you don't want to make all the same mistakes and if you don't want to have to

[01:14:15] have traveled around the entire world and assess have assessments of six million people a year

[01:14:20] you could you could work with Zeke and my point is one thing we agree on that I believe very much

[01:14:25] is assessment is just a model it doesn't tell you everything you shouldn't right necessarily include

[01:14:30] or exclude based on that but it does give you more information it does allow you to ask

[01:14:35] perhaps better questions and then yours is something I haven't found in your Colby and

[01:14:40] your disc and your Strength Finder where you can find this what we what I call unicorn

[01:14:46] and uh and then you can ask more about it because my belief is people have things that make them

[01:14:53] unique in their strengths and we don't play to them enough we play to the picture weaknesses so

[01:14:58] I love that I love what you've been able to do um and you know just at the end I guess it helps

[01:15:04] me uh reframe what I believe which is your one who away from changing your life so find one of

[01:15:11] those people and change your mindset change your life um Zeke hey sign me up for that I'm exactly

[01:15:20] how do people get connected to you if they're interested how do they follow

[01:15:23] how do they reach out what what are you working on yeah so uh totally appreciate you offering that

[01:15:31] we've I'm almost finished rebranding the company because for a long time I used people

[01:15:35] oxygen just thinking of giving oxygen to people gives them more energy and then I realized like

[01:15:44] almost all business owners have the same complaint and that is I have people problems right

[01:15:51] just like I did yeah so I I repreaded the company as everyone hates people problems.com

[01:15:58] and uh and so that's where you'd want to go to kind of just you know reach out or just

[01:16:04] contact or have a conversation right um and it'll list you know what we do how we do it why we do it

[01:16:10] how long we've been doing it but I think I just wanted to like capture that emotion of people

[01:16:16] problems are like dragging me down like I had so that's the best way to reach me and I'm a

[01:16:21] pretty open guide we can have a conversation so feel because basically one of the messages in

[01:16:26] our website now is we're not looking for the perfect business owner just bring all your

[01:16:32] messiness to us and we'll work through it right it's like just like I did for myself except I had

[01:16:37] to do it solo because I didn't know where else to go to help for help right so that's that's kind of

[01:16:42] the message and what we're trying to do is kind of non-dogmatic ways to help people break through

[01:16:49] your pain line thank you uh to to get to the other side right so that's I love that and

[01:16:56] uh so rumors you have a podcast how can we find that?

[01:17:01] Yeah um you know I had to work up enough courage to think that might be valuable to people we still

[01:17:07] have to find out but it you can go on the website and it's you know you'll be able to click on it

[01:17:12] and get references to it and I plan just to start publishing more free information and and doing

[01:17:19] like really breakdowns like a lot of things we talked about today like here's my situation

[01:17:24] how do I go through it right here's here's a candidate how do I you know so people get the

[01:17:29] practical concrete side of this and not just kind of good theory or you know what very general I'm

[01:17:37] more of a deep dive person than I am like hey you know people are your most valuable assets like

[01:17:42] okay yeah thanks tell me what to do that's right and tell me how it's going to work for me

[01:17:47] right so yeah well I love this thank you for being on MSP Mindset today Zeke this has been

[01:17:51] amazing and in my view guys there's two there's two issues and there's two funnels we all have a

[01:17:58] sales and marketing funnel that we spend so much time and effort on and we forget about the talent

[01:18:02] funnel and so if you're not working on the talent funnel you're going to hit that

[01:18:08] pain line you're not going to have the right people so reach out to Zeke uh reach out to his

[01:18:13] company and engage him and see if he can help you with that Zeke thank you so much for being

[01:18:18] here today that was my it was my uh my good thanks to you Damien it's been a pleasure and enjoy thanks

[01:18:24] thank you for tuning in to MSP Mindset you don't want to miss out on future episodes right

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