These Two Steps will Fast-Track Your MSP's Growth, with Terry Hedden

[00:00:00] Hey guys, this episode of MSP Mindset is sponsored by Servosity. Servosity is a backup operation center built by a former MSP for MSPs. They take all the busy work away from you so that you can focus on your core.

[00:00:18] And then they couple that with testing daily, weekly, monthly and quarterly so that you know you can recover in any event and focus on your core business. If you'd like to know more about the process or steal it for your own use,

[00:00:34] check out the link in the description. You know, a lot of MSPs struggle to create a great work life balance, struggle to create a business worth anything when it comes time to sell, struggle to create profit at the end of the day because they don't grow.

[00:00:51] If you don't grow, you can't hire leaders. You can't create levels or layers between you and the customer, which means that every customer issue is your issue. And that becomes something that will eventually just kill you. You know, it'll kill the organization. It'll kill you.

[00:01:10] Hey guys, Damien Stevens, host of MSP Mindset. Today, I got to speak with Terry Headen, who built what was the fastest growing MSP in the nation and exited it in six and a half years. What's more, he did this with a total of twenty four thousand bucks

[00:01:28] and just moved to a new city and had no technical expertise. After that, he built Marketopia, which has grown in three years over two thousand percent, and he spends his time giving back by helping MSPs grow.

[00:01:43] If growth is something you want to know how to do and turn from a dream into a plan, then don't miss out on our conversation. Tell me about how you ended up. So I understand you're at AT&T and a systems engineer at HP

[00:02:00] and all these things, but how did you end up starting what ultimately became your MSP? So I was I was at a company called Lectra, which provided computer a design and computer aided manufacturing systems for aerospace apparel, anything soft goods based in Atlanta.

[00:02:23] Spent a lot of time in Paris and L.A. and New York, which are the sort of the fashion centers and had a great run with them and was blessed by the experience. Had a lot of very educational opportunities and great people in that industry.

[00:02:41] But I decided that I needed to go back to my entrepreneurial roots. And I tried to figure out what to do. I was kind of a little bit lost at that point. I'd left consulting. I'd worked for Infor.

[00:02:57] You know, I was in management consulting and then went to Infor and then went to Lectra. So I had done the highest level of consulting with Jack Welsh and Bob Nardelli and people like that. And then I helped people set up offshore manufacturing

[00:03:11] of like bras and denim jeans and stuff like that. And it was just a hodgepodge of different things. And and I was trying to figure out sort of what's the next step on my entrepreneurial journey. I had learned a lot from all of those experiences, how to succeed,

[00:03:27] how to win things to look out for. I'd gained the wisdom that I didn't have. My first passes at entrepreneurship by just learning from amazing people. You know, Jack Welsh was an amazing guy. So is Bob Nardelli, for example, Michael Dell.

[00:03:42] I had the privilege of working with really amazing people in my career and saw them make great decisions and some maybe not so. And so I was trying to figure out, you know, what to do next, where to go.

[00:03:56] And one of the things that caught my eye was Moe's, the burrito company. I loved them. And in Atlanta, there was this war on who would who would win the burrito wars. And I thought to myself, you know,

[00:04:17] I would go to the burritos, the burrito places and see these long lines and start kind of doing the math in my head and learn that they were spectacularly profitable because a burrito didn't cost much to make. And they were selling it for quite a bit.

[00:04:30] And so I started to kind of go down that path and say, OK, well, I wanted to return to Florida. You know, I loved Atlanta. I love the people there. I had great family there. But but I wanted to return back to Florida where there was warmth

[00:04:42] and ocean and year round outdoor activities. And so I went to them. I was at the Moe's franchise headquarters and was really exploring the idea of buying the Moe's franchise for Tampa Bay. And I was trying to figure out, you know,

[00:04:59] if that's the direction I want to go. I hadn't worked in food service since high school where I delivered pizzas. And I just couldn't quite figure out how to go from management consulting to burrito preparation. You know, it's quite a jump.

[00:05:14] But I saw the business opportunity and knew it would be successful. And so I I called one of the people. I really had two business mentors at the time from that were close to me. One was my dad and one was my uncle.

[00:05:28] And my uncle expressed some kind of willingness to invest and help, you know, whatever I choose to do. So I called him and I said, you know, Uncle Jeff, you know, I've had successful ventures and not successful ventures at that point.

[00:05:42] And I was trying to make sure that the next step was a good one because it was one that would involve me quitting my job and going to no income and moving back, you know, back to Tampa Bay. And I wanted to make sure it was successful.

[00:05:57] And he gave me some sage advice, which I said, when I asked him, you know, how can I ensure that the next step is a good one, that I make a good decision on what's next? And his response was, do what you know.

[00:06:10] And I was like, wow, how simple but yet, you know, deep and I'm like, OK, what do you know exactly? And I'm like, OK, well, I know to make a pizza, but I also know how to, you know, do consulting at the highest level.

[00:06:25] I've worked in 20 countries by then or something like that. You know, I. But the thought that kept coming my back to my mind was technology and not technology from a coding perspective, but technologies that applies to helping businesses grow and succeed.

[00:06:43] And so that came to my mind and I'm like, OK, well, if I wanted to be confident, you know, food service, burrito preparation and delivery is not something I feel I know. So I decided to stay in the technology industry and I

[00:07:01] moved back to Tampa and started to explore what that meant and what that looked like. And I was part of some very interesting conversations. The way that business worked, this is back in probably 2003, early 2003, businesses would have a computer guy or a computer internal team

[00:07:25] that would help support their infrastructure and they'd pay them by the hour or by the year if it's a salaried internal person, if it's a third party, you'd pay by the hour. And how it worked is they would call when there was a problem

[00:07:38] and then the tech would either would usually get in the car and drive over to their office. And I started having conversations with a gentleman that I knew from the neighborhood. And the thought came into my mind what a ridiculous business model that was like

[00:07:58] why do we pay mechanics to fix our car? Like, why wouldn't we pay them to keep it from breaking? And why would we financially incent people for there to be problems after they do the repair? Like a computer person in this break fix model,

[00:08:16] if they do it really, really well and put together a solution that's going to last 10 years and be bulletproof, they would not be able to put food on the table for their families. Right. And I thought to myself,

[00:08:27] I thought to myself what a weird moral hazard that was that you would motivate people to give you solutions to break that don't last very long, that don't scale like you do so that you keep calling them weekly or monthly and keep paying them more and more.

[00:08:43] And even if it's subconscious, you have great people in the industry, but even if it's subconscious, you have to survive. And so I decided to launch a business with a fixed cost model. And at the time it was completely ridiculous.

[00:08:59] No one, I didn't know of anyone in the world doing it. And this is in early 2003. And so I started to work on a business model and came up with a plan called IBS Unlimited. IBS was the original name of the company, Infinity Business Systems,

[00:09:16] later became an acronym that had a negative connotation. Right. And frankly my MSP gave a few people that negative connotation. So we renamed it Infinity Technology Solutions at a later time, but we came to market with this IBS Unlimited plan

[00:09:31] where it was a fixed dollar amount per month per person or per device actually, or no, yeah, yeah, per device. And you'd pay me that monthly amount and I'd fix whatever breaks. So to set the table on that, I wanna keep going, but before you do, couple things.

[00:09:53] One, so you made the jump. I'm gonna create this business. I'm gonna go at it with this kind of flat fee, which was what we now call managed services. Everybody listening knows, but was crazy back then. And I think part that would help people

[00:10:10] understand this is how little capital you started with because you had a lot going to high school, but do you mind sharing how little you had starting? You quit your job and obviously, you were not the IT guy, right? So you also had to hire.

[00:10:28] So a lot of people just started and are the IT guy and they just run around and that's how they scale. So how little did you have really starting this? I was in a relationship at the time with my first wife

[00:10:42] and she was a very fiscally conservative person. And even though I had money from a previous life, the decision was made to start the business with 24,500 bucks and that's what I had to work with. And as you mentioned, I wasn't technically knowledgeable. I've never built a computer,

[00:11:00] racked a server, installed exchange. I had never done any of those things and frankly, never done hardware and technical support for a business before. So with $24,500 in seed capital and this idea of starting a technology company, I wrote that down and submitted it as a business plan

[00:11:24] in the University of Florida's MBA program that I had decided that it was brilliant to do while I was starting a new company because I would have so much extra time on my hands. And so one of the first projects was to build out a business plan.

[00:11:39] And I did that, turned it in and it was based on the fundamental principle of starting off with an acquisition. And it was a company that was very dependent on hardware sales, specifically printer sales of all things, but it also did computer support in state and local government

[00:11:58] as well as a few small businesses. And so I had a very small amount of capital. The idea of sort of, I needed to buy into the market because I didn't know anybody here anymore. I'd left for so long that I really didn't have any relationships.

[00:12:12] It was gonna be tough. And so I hired a CPA, ended up being a great friend of mine by the name of Jose Valiente. And he helped me through this acquisition and it was very serious. We were again, while I was at Florida

[00:12:32] kind of updating the business plan with the MBA program and kind of working through that project. I'm negotiating the real life deal during the week and the seller kept taking things off the table. He'd say, well that stream of revenue stays

[00:12:49] and eventually I just like, what am I buying? Printer sales? I just was like, there was nothing left. You're taking all the easy money off the table. So the CPA that was representing me said, Terry, why are you doing this? Why are you buying this guy's company?

[00:13:07] I said Jose, I just don't know anybody. I appreciate your relationship, but I literally know no one here. And I had to start with a white piece of paper and he said, I'll be your first customer. And I'll never forget it. I just was looking at him.

[00:13:23] I'm like, he knew me. He knew that my knowledge in technology was sky high. By no means was I the laptop repairman. I'm more of a strategist kind of thing. And so he gave me a check for, I think it was 2888

[00:13:41] and a signed contract for I think a year. It may have been longer. And that's how my MSP was born. Now became an MSP. And so I used that money. So I had 2888, I think it was, and a check. I had $24,500 in a bank account and I launched

[00:14:00] and I had to get, I figured two employees, one to work with. Just to clarify, not 28,000, 2800. 28888 dollars, yeah. 2888 I think or 2880. And then the 24,500 in the bank account. Now we didn't have a corporation. I had no office space, no furniture.

[00:14:19] So I said, well, can I rent out this conference room that we're sitting in? And he's like, sure. So the business started off me on a conference table with this guy's contract and no ability to deliver on the service whatsoever.

[00:14:35] So put out a couple of recs for new employees, which I had never actually hired beyond my buddy in high school and never interviewed people for computer network knowledge and skills. So I was blessed honestly with an amazing first hire by the name of Ron Harris.

[00:14:56] And Ron could fix anything. He could do anything. He was a cabling guy, climbed through the ceiling, but he also could build out a network from scratch by himself and he came on board. And I had about two and a half months of cash.

[00:15:15] By the time I hired the two engineers, I had two and a half months of cash. Yeah, that's not a lot. No, no. But you know what? I really, I wasn't worried about that. I believed in what I was doing and I frankly knew

[00:15:31] that as soon as I got into a conversation with an intelligent business owner, I would say something like, why do you pay people to fix problems after they occur when you could pay me to prevent problems from occurring? Because after all, the most,

[00:15:43] the biggest expense of technology was downtime. Not the hourly IT guy that comes and fix something. It's the 37 people that are twiddling their thumbs while the internet's out for the third time that week. Right? So, and I knew it was gonna resonate and boy did it.

[00:15:59] We did not accept the new customers more days than we accepted customers for the first two and a half years of the operation. I won almost every pursuit I went on. I beat what now are industry legends like Arnie Bellini.

[00:16:16] He beat me once in 12 years of running an MSP. I kind of, I replaced people that had been in business with their clients for decades because I came with a very different approach, which is that alignment of interests. Like pay me to prevent problems instead.

[00:16:33] If there's a problem, I'll pay for it, not you. You know, like, and the business owners are just eating it up. They're like, oh my God, this is great. You know? Why wouldn't my mechanic work the same way? Why can't I just send him 100 bucks a month

[00:16:43] and then his job is to make sure my car never breaks down. You know? And I'm like exactly. And so it was a crazy ride. You know, I only had two employees. Obviously I couldn't hire anymore. When I bought equipment,

[00:16:56] I had to play Russian roulette on credit cards, use three credit cards to buy a $5,000 server, which is where I learned cash management and put a lot of my lessons from Dell Computer to the table where I started getting paid before I did any work.

[00:17:12] So I would get 100% on order for hardware, 100% on order for labor, 100% on order for recurring monthly subscriptions and use that money to buy the hardware and hire the people and keep that machine going, right? So we went from, you know, I think our,

[00:17:29] we went from zero to 288,000 in year one to four, 80 year two to about a million year three. And we got up to about 4.5 million in managed service revenue in six and a half years without any money from anyone, without any seed capital beyond that $24,500

[00:17:50] and the blessing of a lot of wonderful people that came into my life from an engineering perspective. And so it was an incredible ride, one that I look back on and, you know, it'd be an interesting conversation to understand where managed services came from.

[00:18:09] But, you know, I would say at least in the Tampa Bay market, which is where ConnectWise is headquartered tech data. There was a lot of really big corporations there. There was no one I knew of that was doing fixed host IT until I came to market.

[00:18:25] And obviously the, you know, two or three years later it became a concept. It became an RMM tool. You know, I remember when Kaseya came out and AutoTask and ConnectWise. And I couldn't buy ConnectWise because I was competitor to their services division.

[00:18:45] So I was in Kaseya AutoTask MSP. And I'm like, wow, this is great. Tools that are built for me because no tool was designed for my business beyond just like a QuickBooks kind of standard. So anyway, it was a wild ride. You know, we grew,

[00:19:02] we were five times on the Inc 5000 with the highest being I think 632 or something like that. And we averaged about 50% per year growth for six and a half years. And it was just a wild ride. It was a great ride.

[00:19:18] So if I got it, you're either the first or one of the first to basically kind of invent the concept of managed services certainly in Tampa Bay. And the market rewarded you, you know, really, really well. You had to do a lot of good cash management

[00:19:32] because anybody that's been in business for long understands growth takes away all the cash, right? So if you're not pretty good at that, like I've seen growth cause as many issues as it creates, as you know, it's opportunity and it's opportunity to do something poorly

[00:19:49] depending on how you deliver. And so that right to becoming like the fastest growing MSP in the nation is really, really something. Tell me about some of the biggest challenges you had during that journey. You know, challenge is something that I've kind of always had to overcome.

[00:20:11] I came from humble beginnings, divorced family. I lived with my mom and it was very financially tight situation. I certainly didn't come. No one gave me a hundred thousand bucks to start a business or anything like that.

[00:20:24] I was a kid who grew up with one pair of shorts, you know? And so overcoming challenges was never something I was afraid of and I grew up in a rural community, more of a farm community.

[00:20:39] I grew up on a farm in fact and got to the University of Florida and quickly learned that I was going to deal with adversity in my life with my calculus class with a thousand people in it after my farm city education, you know?

[00:20:54] And so I knew there was going to be, you know, things to overcome and challenges before me. And as an early entrepreneur with my MSP, I'd already had a few different businesses starting with that lawn service back when I was 14 as background

[00:21:11] and then just watching people make decisions so that I was armed a lot more than I probably would have been. But at the end of the day, you know, entrepreneurship is a series of inventions, you know, from the initial business model to how you're going to overcome obstacles

[00:21:28] like and sometimes necessity, you know, is the mother of invention like for instance, I have any money. So yeah, did I innovate the fact that people would have to pay for a hundred percent of hardware, a hundred percent of labor on order? Yeah. Why? I had to.

[00:21:43] That's the only way I could actually buy the equipment to do the project, right? Or hire the engineer to do the work. So, you know, some things came by accident. Some came, this guy gave me an idea and I went with it

[00:21:55] like the whole, you know, fixed cost IT model kind of concept and so overcame a lot of obstacles that way and you know, ended up, you know, skin on my teeth every single month making payroll was a game, but I was blessed with the ability to sell

[00:22:15] and I had a proposal temple that made me look better than other people. I had a website that made me look better than other people. I had a shtick that was quite different than the average technician that was running most of the VARs at the time.

[00:22:32] So I had a business model or proposal temple to go to market strategy. Even my business card made me look better than other people. And I remember one of my, at the early days, every time I lost I would just be shocked. I'm just like, really?

[00:22:45] And the guy said, you know, you're just too big for us. I'm like, it's me and two guys, right? And I'm like, too big for you. Help me understand. And he goes, you know, I could tell you're a large company and we're not and you know,

[00:22:58] when I look at your website I see how big you are and I want to be an important customer of yours and obviously I wouldn't be with you and I was like, sir, I have two employees and I'm not one of the people doing the work.

[00:23:09] You know, I have two people to do the work. You have 20 people I think it was, you know, you're a big customer for me and I'm going to make you feel like that on a daily basis, appreciated and respected because that's what you deserve.

[00:23:21] And I think we won that job but I remember losing, I took it hard and I made sure that I learned whatever lesson that I needed to learn to ensure that it didn't happen again because losing sucks and I never was good at it no matter

[00:23:35] if I was playing soccer, golf or business. I treated every win with a question mark. Why did I win? Did I win for the wrong reasons? Did I undercut myself? Did I under price my services or did I win because I was just better

[00:23:50] or perceived as better than my competition? Why did I lose? You know, how did I lose? How is that even possible, you know? And sometimes I learned politics, nepotism. Sometimes I learned, you know, that I made a mistake. Showing up five minutes late for a sales pitch

[00:24:09] means you're going to lose. You know, I learned some really valuable lessons then as well. So you learn through success and we learn through failure and eventually you just don't lose very much and that was, you know, where we were blessed to be

[00:24:22] and by the end of the six and a half year run where I was just on a rocket ship, there were competition. People had stolen my proposal. I could see because it looked just like mine, you know? They would literally take my format

[00:24:34] and put their label on it and start competing with me and undercutting me usually. And so I had to win on new things, which led to a constant state of innovation. How do I go one better? How do I get better every quarter, every six months?

[00:24:46] What's the new version? I remember version nine of my proposal and I'd only been in business for three or four years, but that was because I had to step, one step ahead of the competition, you know? And so, you know, I love that part of entrepreneurship.

[00:25:00] I love invention. I love innovation. I love helping people and making a difference, but also winning. You know, I wanted to make sure that I won far more than my fair share and that's really what we did for the first, you know, six and a half years.

[00:25:15] Just rode the rocket ship and innovated and ended up becoming, you know, a beast. 49 people in six and a half years with no funding where we ended that six and a half year run and had a great time doing it.

[00:25:29] You know, I wouldn't have traded that time for the world even though running a business growing at 50% a year is hard, really hard and especially without any money. So I look back on that time with, you know, a little bit of gray hair and sweat on my brow,

[00:25:49] but also a lot of appreciation for the lessons that I was taught through the mentors that I had through winning and losing. Yeah, yeah, that's crazy. So during that six and a half years, right? I think most, not everybody,

[00:26:03] but most of them can relate to being the tech that goes and starts and that's how you get going. So yours is very different, you know, quite the opposite. So did you end up where you had the key person that led the team?

[00:26:19] Was it something like that that allowed you because a lot of folks, even if they are technical, even if they were to grow as fast as you do, they couldn't do it for more than six months before they wouldn't keep up with the staffing,

[00:26:30] they couldn't keep up with the ability to deliver. Yeah. You know, I think if you look back on the greatest lessons that I learned or the greatest things that people can learn from my experience, one of them is certainly the value of separating service and sales.

[00:26:51] So many people get into a business because they know that business and they become the product. And so they try to sell themselves and then do the work, sell themselves and do the work. And the problem is that becomes a wave,

[00:27:08] a wave where when things are going well, you're burning yourself out. When things are not, you can't make payroll and it becomes this wave and so many people get stuck in that wave where they're scrambling to close the deal to pay for the sins of the past

[00:27:22] and they're really on a treadmill. They're not getting anywhere. They're just trying to maintain. And when we closed a big project, my role was back padding and pizza buying. You know, I wasn't the one staying up late at night bringing up this network.

[00:27:39] I was out there closing the next deal and then showing them love with pizza and appreciation to my team why they did the work. And so I was able to separate sales and service early on which allowed both to occur simultaneously

[00:27:56] which allowed me to get more and more recurring revenue which of course is what helped me get to four and a half, five million dollars in managed services revenue in six and a half years without any budget. It was guerrilla marketing, hard work

[00:28:11] and that's one of those blessings which is the requirement of separating sales and service. You know, I didn't have the curse of knowledge of being smart enough to be an engineer. You know, I would just, I had no idea how to do it.

[00:28:25] I knew what needed to be done at a 50,000 foot I could write the proposal but not the bill of materials and darn sure not the steps required to do it. I was blessed with great people. Ron Harris being one of them. Lance Tenhoopin would be another

[00:28:39] and those guys would go deliver on whatever crazy thing I promised the customer and did it extraordinarily well. And I just was onto the next thing, you know either it's hiring the next person that I had to hire because I now could afford to do that

[00:28:55] or, you know, go sell the next new implementation of managed services. Yeah, so not long did you grow really quickly. So you had some really good at sales ability, right? You were, I think it was voted best place to work in not just Tampa

[00:29:14] but if I understand right, Florida. Yeah, so one of the things that I think people underestimate is social proof where other people say you're great. And that's something that I knew very well and big five because it was my day-to-day existence. I was a 21 year old kid

[00:29:35] grew up on a farm that went to the University of Florida. I show up on my first engagement at Ernst & Young and I'm teaching a 50 year old man that had been doing his job for 20 years how to do it better, you know

[00:29:45] and the only reason I was in that position is because someone said, hey, I've got the most brilliant dude who's gonna come in here and help Bell South become even better because he's amazing. And that was the social proof that I needed

[00:29:58] to get in the door and do what I did. And the same thing happened at my MSP whether it was an article in the paper that quoted me an award that I got and I ended up getting probably 40 awards maybe

[00:30:13] when I sold my MSP, they gifted me all of the awards with my picture on them. And so I still have probably 20 scattered around the office today. You know, it's great to have because obviously they weren't really mine but it's a great way to remember the importance

[00:30:30] of publicity and having people talk about you. So I'd be nominated for awards and frankly, I'm a very competitive person. So I found it quite fun to compete for the hardest awards like Ink Magazine, Ink 5000 is a hard award although that's more of a revenue base.

[00:30:49] But I also at the same time I was the business of the year in Orlando and the business of the year for Tampa and I didn't even live in Orlando. You know what I mean? Like I was just trying to win

[00:30:58] and with that came press, publicity, street cred, social proof so that when I went to someone I'd be like, you know, who's better to help you than the business of the year for Orlando? They don't know that I drove over that morning from Tampa to pitch them.

[00:31:13] They just knew I was the business of the year and so people just kept signing. And so winning awards is a key part of guerrilla marketing. So our references, so our referrals and so we're friends, you know, people who are just out there looking out for you

[00:31:31] and I was blessed with some great ones and that helped me kind of work through challenges and get opportunities that I probably didn't deserve and certainly didn't earn. And it allowed me to really focus on guerrilla marketing.

[00:31:43] How do I get a lead for cheaper than the other guy? Get into a competitive situation where I win more than my fair share because I'm better at sales and at the end of the day, you know, achieve things in six years

[00:31:58] where at the time it took people 30 to do that. You know, to get to five million in recurring revenue, most MSPs obviously never get there. Those that do have been in business for 20 or 30 years, I was there in year six, you know?

[00:32:13] And that itself has become street cred, you know, for Mark Atobian what we're doing here which was far faster growth than anything my MSP achieved. Yeah, yeah. So I wanna jump into that before we do, tell me about, there's all the sales side and all the growth

[00:32:33] and revenue, which is just amazing. But how did you with that kind of growth become the best place to work? Right, it seems like you could easily become the worst place to work with all the growth and the projects

[00:32:44] and you know, what happens to so many of us is it's like, oh gosh, we grew way more than we thought. Now we're overworked, we don't have enough people and then we're behind the eight ball from a staffing perspective. So to pull off the best place to work

[00:32:58] while kind of going through record pace growth must have taken something out of the ordinary. You know, I think it's a very observant thing and I absolutely agree with you that in most instances, fast growth is painful, especially for a small business.

[00:33:16] But you're on 50% a year is not easy. If I look back on that situation and think of how I was able to maintain a quality work environment, it starts off with having a genuine care for your team.

[00:33:32] You know, I've had people come up to me in a mall 10 years after leaving me to thank me for what I put them through. And what that really meant was that working with me has always been like a pressure cooker. You know, you're gonna be challenged in ways

[00:33:53] you've never been challenged. You're gonna be asked to grow at a pace that you've never been asked to grow. You're gonna be asked to achieve things that you've never achieved. You're gonna be shown a lot of appreciation and support but at the end of the day,

[00:34:04] you're gonna rise and you're gonna become better. And in a lot of cases, you're probably gonna become better than you dreamed you could be, you know? And I've always been that person that, for better and for worse, has seen incredible things in people.

[00:34:20] And I would tell them that and show them that and give them open and honest feedback that sometimes is hard to hear, you know? And I've learned that the best leaders in the world are not people who make people feel great every day.

[00:34:33] The best leaders in the world are helping people achieve their dreams, even when it's hard, even when it's unpopular, even when it's stressful and difficult. And so, in my career, I've been blessed with thousands of employees over the 10 companies that I've started.

[00:34:51] And there are some that crash and burn. You know, if you're a person who wants your life on cruise control, you're content with where you are, you don't want anything more for yourself, you wanna know what you know and that's it and you're comfortable with that,

[00:35:04] you don't really want anything more for your career, for your personal life, I'm terrible to work with. I'm absolutely terrible to work with. I probably am getting better as I age, but honestly, I'm just not and I never wanna be that person.

[00:35:18] I wanted to be the person who allows you to say, those 10 years were brutal, but man, look what I am now. I made $17 an hour when I met Terry, 10 years later, I make $200,000 a year, I'm the CEO of a company. How could I have ever made that jump

[00:35:33] if someone wasn't pushing me to become the best that I could be every single day? And so, people see that, certain people see that. Some people cave and complain and I still see them on Facebook making snide comments, but those are the people

[00:35:49] who will never achieve their potential. They're too content with who they are and their leader is too content being popular and not content enough, not focused enough on motivating his or her team to become the very best that they could be. In every company I've had,

[00:36:07] I've realized that the only way the company can ever achieve its potential is for the people to achieve theirs. So, I would take someone, see something in them and then start investing time, energy and political points. Political points is like a currency for negative feedback or constructive criticism.

[00:36:27] It's like, Damien, you did a great job with that question, but next time ask it with more passion. I'd always be the person who'd take the risk of giving the feedback with the very best of intentions. And some people would take that feedback and be like,

[00:36:44] oh, Terry, you're such an asshole, da-da-da, I'm outta here. And then some people will be like, he's right, you know? I definitely could ask that question with more passion, right? And then that rouses them to the rise to the next level and then they're there.

[00:36:56] And now, next thing you know, they go from a worker to a manager and now they go from making $17 an hour to 70 grand a year and they didn't change anything other than they rose. And so the people that have risen,

[00:37:11] you know, that I've been blessed to work with, you know, I'm that guy. I'm the person who helped them do that or made them rise. And there are many, many of them out there and a lot of them are physically in the building that I'm in now.

[00:37:25] My job as I see it is not to milk people and make the most I can and be popular. My goal is to say, I'm gonna, I wanna rise and change the world and make a difference in the world by helping the people that are doing that

[00:37:44] make a difference in their lives. You know, how do I help them make more money? How do I give them opportunities that no one else gave them? How do I push them and give them honest feedback that other people are too scared to provide, you know?

[00:37:56] If you look at some of the best leaders in the world, whether it's Alan Musk or Steve Jobs, they're assholes. They have moments, right? They're brutally honest and they give honest feedback and they push people. And I'm sure they have a lot of enemies,

[00:38:12] but they also have some people who have changed the world. And I believe the best way to do that is to help others do the same for themselves. And so I've always been that guy that wasn't afraid of giving that feedback.

[00:38:27] And the people who realized it came from a good place took it, did something with it and achieved something because of it. So what's a way if I'm listening and I buy into this and I go, okay, this is great.

[00:38:38] Like I've been maybe not challenging my team enough. I love it. Like I believe in my team, but if I'm not challenging them enough I've been stuck in the nice guy trap and not pushing you to be your best. What's something I could do

[00:38:52] to really help my team to challenge them and help them grow? I think there's two answers to that question. Okay. One of those, there's a book now out called Traction and a system called the Entrepreneurial Operating System. And I've really leveraged that system as I've matured.

[00:39:12] Obviously it became more popular, wasn't there in 2003, but you create KPIs and you push people. Let them push themselves and you push them through an unemotional, I want you to hit 12. 12 is your number, Damien, you can do it. Let's get to 12. Oh, you're 11, good job, congratulations.

[00:39:30] But how are you gonna get to 12? Let an unemotional KPI plus words of encouragement and constructive criticism push while encouraging people to push themselves. I think that's one way to do it. The other one is more emotional where you show the same passion for the person

[00:39:52] and for what the person achieves that you do for your business or yourself and depend on the people to receive that. And I'll tell you the latter works or the former works a lot better than the latter. Emotional leaders tend to have people who hate them

[00:40:09] and people who admire them and love them and achieve something because of them. And whereas KPI driven leaders may not have the same impact on the world, but it's a lot easier on the people. I'm more of an emotional leader that's grown to appreciate the structure of KPIs

[00:40:29] and that type of thing. To me though, the biggest thing is a personal decision as a leader, what kind of leader are you gonna be? Are you gonna be the leader who underpays your employees now and for the rest of time because you are not the leader

[00:40:46] who's going to allow your organization to achieve extraordinary things? Is that who you're going to be? If so, that's fine. Just be honest with them. Hey listen, I'm gonna run a million dollar business for the next 20 years. My hope is to pay you 80% of what my competition could

[00:41:06] but I'm gonna create a pretty casual laid back life because of it. You know, it's a lifestyle. And be honest with your team and your family and yourself. If you want to achieve something extraordinary, you also have to be honest with your team.

[00:41:19] I'm gonna help you achieve something extraordinary. What's your dream? You know, what's your dream? Where do you want to be in 10 years? Do you want to put your, you know, you were a high school dropout. Do you want to send your kids to the Ivy League?

[00:41:30] Because that's what I want for you if that's the case. And I want to push you and push myself and push the organization to achieve its potential and win and help others win. And I think those are two different kinds of leaders.

[00:41:49] And I don't think, I think it starts off with a mental decision of what kind of person you want to be and what kind of leader you want to be, you know, because it's not easy growing an organization at 50% a year. It's not easy to give constructive criticism

[00:42:05] and open honest feedback. It's a lot easier to bite your tongue, say at a boy no matter what happens and allow mediocrity to rule the day. You know, that's the easy path as a leader. And I think the people you find that truly achieve something extraordinary

[00:42:23] are the open and honest type that try to push their team to live to their potential. I love that you're sharing that. And I'd love to dig a little deeper because there's no way you would be the fastest growing MSP without the people, right?

[00:42:38] I mean, in your particular case, you couldn't be the service and the sales, which is a curse or a blessing, depending on how you want to frame that, right? In your case, I think you used it as a blessing. So tell me about some of the ways

[00:42:53] that you had to level up as you grew because obviously at the end, millions and millions of revenue versus at the beginning with two people, you probably had leadership team. You probably had a lot more operational maturity and probably bigger challenges, but in different ways.

[00:43:11] So I'm kind of curious, what are some of those, especially for the folks listening, right? The MSP is listening, going through this thing. Okay, I'm stuck at a million or I'm doing this and I'm doing that. Or maybe wherever they are,

[00:43:22] there might be half that, might be twice that. But if you're there and you're not getting there, some of the people challenges you faced. Yeah, the biggest people challenge that a small MSP faces is the leader. He or she tends to become the problem, whether they're a bottleneck

[00:43:39] or the only engineer or the only of anything. They tend to be very quick to jump in and very slow to delegate. I think one of the things that I learned and deployed very early on was that if you can find someone to do 80% as good as you,

[00:44:01] delegate as fast as you can. And I think a lot of MSPs struggle to create a great work-life balance, struggle to create a business worth anything when it comes time to sell, struggle to create profit at the end of the day because they don't grow.

[00:44:18] If you don't grow, you can't hire leaders. You can't create levels or layers between you and the customer, which means that every customer issue is your issue. And that becomes something that will eventually just kill you. It'll kill the organization, it'll kill you.

[00:44:34] I knew that the key to prosperity and the key to joy in life was to delegate. And I knew the key to delegation was to have the money to hire the people to delegate to. And the key to do that was to run a balanced business.

[00:44:52] Most MSPs over-invest in the service side to the point where they can't afford a back office and they can't afford a marketing and sales team. They literally will buy every tool and every technology and everything at every booth at every trade show for their service team.

[00:45:08] They'll have three times more engineers than they need because they want to create the best life for the best engineers. They want to collect them like some sort of rare, pottery piece. Whereas I knew that for me to grow,

[00:45:22] I was going to have to invest what it took to do a good job and stop there and start investing in what it took to get the next customer, to drive the next level of organizational growth, to go from 1.2 to 2.8 million in one year.

[00:45:39] Most MSPs never get to 1.2, but those that do don't get to 2.8 in the next year usually. And for me, it was just leveling up. I needed to up-level myself. I needed to get out of the day-to-day. I needed to not be the bottleneck,

[00:45:54] not be the problem and to hire people to take portions of my job so that I can do mine. The CEO job is a very important one whether you're an integrator that's actually doing the operational running of the company or if you're the visionary

[00:46:08] who's coming up with the next great idea that's going to help you leapfrog the competition. It doesn't really matter. The CEO job has to be done and if you're so busy being the tech, you're not going to be the CEO.

[00:46:20] So one of those things that I would tell anyone who was looking to achieve growth and actually turn their business into a $10 million valuation is you're going to have to get out of the way. You're going to have to level up and delegate.

[00:46:35] To do that, you're going to have to make money and to do that, you're going to have to get a lead that becomes a sale, that becomes revenue on the top line so that you can add expenses to the bottom line. When you start building an organization

[00:46:49] with people that are amazingly specialized at their piece and you start getting out of the way and let them grow and let them blossom into whatever they can become, your organization can start achieving things that you as an individual can't. I think that is something

[00:47:07] that a lot of MSPs struggle with. You know, I would spend 10% to 20% sometimes of revenue on the front end of my business. Wow. Yeah. Why? Because I knew that to hire a COO, I need to have $20K a month in profit and the best way to do that

[00:47:30] is not to cut my team on the engineering side but it's to get three new customers that average $7,000 a piece. At that point, I've got enough. As long as I don't have to hire an engineer because I have better automation or better tools

[00:47:45] or my engineers are more efficient or whatever, that becomes top line revenue that can hire people that are better than me. You know? And so, a lot of MSPs need to learn that lesson. You should spend a significant amount of money on the front end of your business

[00:48:01] and not give up on it, even if it doesn't work. You know, if you make a mistake, buy some sort of toolkit that never generates a lead, it never generates a sale, that doesn't mean you give up on lead generation and sales.

[00:48:12] That just means that you failed that time and that's okay. Learn from it and move on. Try something else, you know? And, you know, that became the package that is now Marketopia which is how do you create a rocket ship

[00:48:29] on top of an MSP that hasn't grown in 10 years? And I will tell you that it's easy. It's extremely easy to grow an MSP. In fact, there are few businesses easier to grow than a managed service provider in the world and the magic is in recurring revenue. Right?

[00:48:47] So if you get one on a five year- I wanna take that apart because I don't wanna miss that because I don't think anybody listening would raise their hand and say, this is easy, this seems easy. Recurring revenue is the gift, no doubt, right?

[00:49:01] I feel like you fall in the camp of sales and marketing. That's my, you know, that's my struggle or you fall in the camp of, okay, well, I did grow but now I've got a scale service delivery and then you get-

[00:49:16] I get a lot of people, they just come to me and I've had people tell me, I literally cannot grow my business. They've told me like it's a fact, you know, they've believed it so much that I can't grow my business. I actually have to quit accepting clients

[00:49:28] because I can't attract the right kind of, I need L3 engineers. I need this kind of stuff, I need that. So you kind of fall into like, you know, sales and marketing. I've tried once or twice, I've tried two or three things,

[00:49:39] I tried sending out these lead gen forms or mailing some aspirin or whatever, it didn't work. And then you have the others that are just like, they've gotten some success but they kind of hit the brakes because they're like, well, you know,

[00:49:51] I can't keep finding talent, you know? And if I- Maybe one client won't make you find more talent but if you're going 50% a year, you're gonna be adding people. So anyway, I hear that all the time. So how is this the easiest business to grow?

[00:50:11] Being afraid of growing as an MSP to me is the same thing as a farmer being afraid to plant seeds because of what might happen when they grow, right? Don't be afraid of the problem you want to have. You're-

[00:50:27] The distance between you and where you want to go is probably growth, right? It's a time period based on a growth rate to achieve an objective that you have at some point in the future. Growth is what it's going to require.

[00:50:42] Whether it's quality of life you're looking for, profit, revenue, valuation when it comes to sell, you have to grow. So you can't be afraid of the consequences of growth. You can't let the fear of success lead you to fail, which is really what you're talking about. Right.

[00:51:00] The strawberry farmer would go, listen I'm so scared to death of buying that tractor because if I plant 25,000 more strawberry seeds, I might have 25,000 more strawberry plants which means I've got to pick those strawberries and sell them and make an extra million dollars a year.

[00:51:16] I'm scared to death, therefore I'm just not gonna buy the tractor. I'm gonna do it the old fashioned way and maintain the status quo so that in 20 years I'm exactly where I am right now, which is what you're saying.

[00:51:28] And so you've got to kind of level up from that and mature as a leader and say, you know what? I'm not gonna be afraid of success. I'm not gonna be the reason my team doesn't achieve their personal objective because I'm afraid of achieving my own objectives.

[00:51:43] I'm not gonna be the guy who looks back on his career and wonders what might have been if I wasn't scared. If I wasn't afraid to achieve my own dreams. So, you know, so first you got to get over that. It's a mental, it's a head trash, right?

[00:52:01] Which is I'm afraid to succeed. So you've got to say, you know what? You know, at this point in my career, I believe in myself, I believe in my team and if I don't, I believe in my ability to find someone that can help me.

[00:52:13] I'll figure it out. And that's where I was. I would go close the deal and I had no technical skill nor resource to do the work, but I believed in my ability to find them and God's ability to provide whatever it is that I needed.

[00:52:27] You know, and that faith allowed me to take leaps of faith and that allowed me to have confidence in the sales process, which is a lot of the reason you win. I was confident walking in there. That company didn't know that I had three employees

[00:52:41] and they're bigger than all my customers combined and I'm about to close the deal because I look better and sound better than my peers. So I would worry about success when I needed to worry about success and until then I wouldn't be afraid

[00:52:56] to do what it took to achieve it, you know? And so I think a lot of us kind of get stuck with that head trash and we allow it to sink us and it's quite unfortunate because one thing I think is really common in the MSP industry

[00:53:11] is that there's great people in there. The people who deserve to win, they're MSPs man. They're good people, hardworking people, care about their customers. Don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal. Honest people, not afraid to work for a dollar. They're certainly not trying to scam people.

[00:53:28] You know, they deserve to win. They're the nice guy that deserves to win. So one of the roles that I have out there is to try to motivate people to do what it takes to achieve their dreams and stop letting their fear of success lead to their failure.

[00:53:45] Let their comfort and complacency lead to not achieving the ultimate dream that they have for themselves or their family. And so, you know, we just had a customer who I could have bought his business for a dollar one day.

[00:53:59] Two and a half years later, he sold for $6 million. Wow. That's an MSP. So from evaluation of $1 to evaluation of $6 million and all I did was give him the confidence to believe. Wow. And all he did was trust

[00:54:17] and was not one who got duped into some sort of a cheesy sales pitch of some sort of, you know, cheap solution that's not going to really do anything but at least it's cheap. He had the courage to do what it takes to be successful

[00:54:31] and that's what he did. And it led to extraordinary things for him and his family and, you know, it's one of those, you know, feathering your cap moments in your career where you're like, you know what? Me trying to achieve my dreams led to other people

[00:54:46] achieving theirs and that should be all of our goals. Well said. So if I'm sitting there, I'm listening, I'm going, okay, I get it. I am getting well. We've got this for your success. What do I need to do? What's the next step?

[00:54:59] You know, I think, you know, I think the easiest path is to start off with asking yourself what success really looks like. What is my dream? What is my goal? And writing that down. You know, if you come to me and you say,

[00:55:19] Terry, I'm a one million dollar MSP right now in revenue. I am the business. Therefore, when I go to sell it, it's probably worth, you know, 100 grand. I want to sell for 10 million dollars in 10 years. If you go to a real growth firm, take out Marketopia.

[00:55:41] You just go find a growth firm. They will help you make that plan and says, okay, to achieve 10 million in 10 years based on your average client size, your average close ratio, right? You're going to have to close, you know, 36 new clients a year and a 10% close ratio.

[00:56:02] You're going to need 360 leads a month, a year divided by 12, right? Get you a number of leads per month. And a real growth firm would help you translate that tactical monthly KPI into a plan to achieve that number. Whereas most firms, most people gravitate toward cheap.

[00:56:29] You know, they feel like that that fear mentality, that scarcity mindset leads them to make decisions that don't actually do anything, you know? If you buy a training program that doesn't result in action, doesn't result in leads, doesn't result in sales, that's wasted money.

[00:56:49] If you find a solution out there that gets you the 30 leads that you need to achieve your goal that we just calculated on that exercise, then you've actually taken a step toward achieving your dreams. In fact, once you find the firm that delivers you

[00:57:06] 30 appointments a month, every dream you had is now an expectation. And all of that entire thing I just mentioned is an hour, but it's an hour that most MSPs don't take and it has to result in a decision that most MSPs are afraid to make.

[00:57:26] So what I would tell you is that achieving your dreams is just a series of decisions leading to doing what it takes to achieve them. And it's really not hard. It's really not expensive. It's really not scary. It just takes courage and professional maturity.

[00:57:44] And so it's hard to get people to do those things. It's a lot easier to say, hey listen, Damien, I've got a plan that's only 49 bucks a month, buddy, sign up here and I send you some e-learning link and I get 99 points of margin on that.

[00:57:58] So, you know, hey, I'm making 48 bucks, right? You don't have any real risk, no downside. You're blowing 49 bucks a month. Who cares? Until year two and three when you realize that you didn't follow the training, you didn't do the work and your

[00:58:14] revenue is the same or even lower than it was when you first bought that subscription and that's a travesty. That's failure. And so what I would tell you is that people need to go through that exercise. What's my dream? Write it down a piece of paper.

[00:58:29] My goal is this valuation by this date and then you work with someone who's a business person that can help translate that into annual goals, monthly goals and daily activities required to achieve those monthly goals. And as soon as you're achieving those monthly

[00:58:46] goals, trust, be patient, be disciplined, be mature enough to say, you know what? I didn't get where I am in a day and I'm not going to get where I'm trying to go in a day. I need to be patient and disciplined to stay the course.

[00:58:59] And over time, averages play out. Over time, the math that you did that equated to that 30 leads per month goal equals achievement of dream becomes what exactly what you expected it to be. You figure out how to close 10 out of 30 leads a

[00:59:17] month and you're adding $30,000 a month in recurring revenue and all of a sudden at the end of the year, you're adding $360,000 in recurring revenue, which means you're adding approximately $360,000 in annual valuation over the course of 10 years. It's added up to something.

[00:59:34] But by the way, since you're one of the few MSPs that actually knows how to grow and you probably have done even greater things with those clients after they came aboard, someone will come to buy you and say, Damien, dad, go on, man. It's pretty awesome.

[00:59:47] Most people would go to 1.2 million and stay there the rest of their lives. You were at 1.2 million and now you're at 19.2 million. I'm going to give you a valuation of 20 X EVITA. You know, and now EVITA is a million dollars. And so now you do the math.

[01:00:05] You're like, holy cow. I just turned my MSP that was then worth a hundred grand into 20 mil and all of a sudden the sailboat in the Virgin Islands that are reamed about having or the cabin in the mountains or I don't know whatever your

[01:00:17] dream is becomes what actually happens. And so it's not that complicated. It's not that difficult. It's just the discipline to take the time to write down your dream and then build a plan to achieve it and then have the discipline to follow that plan.

[01:00:34] So on that note, so this is what I gather you do with Marketopia and in three years you've experienced over 2000% growth rate at Marketopia. So crazy growth. How have you figured out how to grow even faster than as your as your MSP?

[01:00:56] My you know, my MSP peaked at 658 or 652 on the INC 5000. Marketopia peaked in the INC 500 and I think it was like 238 or 252 or something like that. We had 2040% through year growth. The principles are the exact same, right? Come up with a solution that's slightly

[01:01:20] better than other people perceptively or actually better. Figure out how to get more leads than average. Figure out how to close more than your fair share and then do a good job and deliver on your promises. And if there's results that aren't living

[01:01:37] up to your expectations, figure out how to improve upon them, get better and innovate and elevate your performance over time. And if you do that, you'll keep customers and if you do that, you'll grow and the second time you drive a rocket ship, it's a lot easier, right?

[01:01:55] And we've been blessed with great people here. We have a great, great team now and one I'm honored to lead and we've done great things for people. We've helped people achieve their dreams. Multiple people have exited. I've got one that I think is exiting

[01:02:11] this week and I'm really happy for him because he deserves it. And so, you know, I think what Marketopia does for MSPs is the Delta between where I was as an MSP and where my competition was as an MSP. I sold in six and a half years.

[01:02:33] Most MSPs are still at a half million or a million in six and a half years. I exited and I didn't even for sale. My business was not listed. I didn't have an offering. I literally gave a speech at a copier convention and then there

[01:02:46] was a bidding war. And so what I would do now is overlay the discipline that exercise that I described to you is how we start every engagement. What's your dream? Let's build a plan to achieve your dream, whether you use us for the plan or you do it

[01:03:05] yourself or you hire another firm. I actually don't care. If I came out of retirement to make a difference, not a dollar and every dollar that I made in Marketopia is because I've had a passion for making a difference. And so my goal is to just help

[01:03:19] people with that first step, the hardest step, which is what's it going to take to achieve their dreams and then leaving it in their lap? Are you willing to do it? You know, because that's what's going to separate the dreamers from the achievers. If everybody knows what it's

[01:03:35] going to take and 10% are actually willing to do it. Those are your winners. Those are the ones they're going to live the life that they wanted to live and achieve what they want to achieve and help others achieve the dream that they had themselves and hopefully more.

[01:03:51] So that's what Marketopia does. We do it in the form of asking that question is the first question of the sales process all the way to day-to-day execution of marketing, lead generation and sales. We'll actually help people close deals. That's the new service that we launched this month

[01:04:11] actually is Sales Closer as a service for for for MSP business owners that just aren't sales people don't know how to hire a salesperson struggling with with sales. We'll actually help them. We'll hold their hand go to every meeting with them virtually and ask the tough

[01:04:26] questions, you know, ask ask for the deal when they're afraid to ask for the deal ask for 25% more money than maybe you thought the prospects be willing to pay and then have the confidence to get that done. At the end of the day if we

[01:04:38] can make a difference for you know 100,000 more MSPs and help 100,000 more great people achieve their dreams. That's the kind of epitaph that I want for myself right when I put it put a capstone on the end of my career. It's how many lives did you change?

[01:04:52] How many dreams did you help others achieve? And did you do it the right way and to me that's what it's all about. Yeah, how many how many lives did you change is a huge huge one. I love that. Yeah. So I love this area.

[01:05:07] This has been a gift if I'm interested if I'm listening and I want to connect I want to follow I want to I want to hear I want to figure out what it takes whatever those are how's the best way to get a hold of your company?

[01:05:18] Maybe just follow you. What do you recommend? You know connect on LinkedIn obviously it's the great B2B thing. You can also connect me on Facebook, but I'm not that cool of a guy. I'm never good at posting stuff on LinkedIn is a great way to connect Terry

[01:05:31] Headen H E D D E N you connect to me or Marketopia or give us a call you know go to Marketopia.com fill out phone numbers on there fill out information the bare minimum that I'd like to do for your audience is to help them with that

[01:05:48] plan translating their dream into a monthly KPI that they then have the option to do whatever they want. I don't care if they decide to make a conscious decision that they're not willing and therefore they need to change their dream or if they hire Marketopia or another

[01:06:04] company actually don't care. I'd like to help every one of your listeners translate that dream into a plan and give them the knowledge of what it's going to take to turn their dreams into expectations. And if we can do that for just one MSP I will

[01:06:20] consider this time well spent and hope and trust that will make a difference with one person and if we could do that I'd find this very very successful. So I'd love to do that for your for your audience and if the time comes for me to

[01:06:35] be on stage and share my my testimony or my business acumen with anybody I'd love to do that. So there's opportunity to help somebody have them reach out to me on LinkedIn text me I'll answer any but any question that they have and help them to the

[01:06:51] best of my ability. All right. Well this we've talked about how you were the fastest growing MSP what it takes how you're growing even faster Marketopia and if you're listening we've talked about we talk about every episode how you can change your mindset. So now it's the time

[01:07:07] to overcome your fear of success and I love it as you put it to Terry put turn it from your dream to an actual reality or a plan and then you can do whatever you want. You can decide who you want to hire you want to do but

[01:07:22] go from that you owe it to yourself and your team right to turn this from a dream into reality. So take advantage we'll make sure the links are in the notes and don't sleep on this. This is your opportunity to do something different and do something that

[01:07:36] most people won't do so don't be one of those people. And take advantage of the gift that Terry is giving us. Terry thank you so much for the gift for my audience for the gift of your time here. It's been a true blessing to have you

[01:07:51] on the show today. Thank you Danny it's an honor to speak with you and work with you and it's an honor to make a difference with you.