This is Scary, But It'll Make Your MSP More Profitable... (MSP Titan #11)

[00:00:00] So change for the sake of change is not good. It's just having the willingness to do the checkup from the neck up to put the mirror out there and look to see what you see. I mean, would you hire you to do your job? Would you pay you what you pay you to do what you're doing? Like, are you delivering on the value proposition of time, money that you get paid? And if the answer is no, then you have to find somebody who's going to do it better or be the better person to do it better.

[00:00:27] And again, it's not change for the sake of change. It's change that's going to get you towards the direction that you're trying to go.

[00:00:40] Hey guys, Damien Stevens, host of MSP Mindset. Today, I continue on my mission to interview 100 of the most interesting and fastest growing MSPs on the planet.

[00:00:51] And I'm blessed to be joined by Stuart Bryan of IM Technology. Now, even though it is one of the 500 fastest growing MSPs on the planet,

[00:01:01] he was super open and candid about how he hit this glass ceiling at 500K and year after year after year could not grow his MSP

[00:01:12] until he realized the law of the lid taught him that he was a thing holding his MSP back.

[00:01:20] He needed to upgrade his mindset in order to upgrade his outcome.

[00:01:24] If that's interesting to you, don't miss out on our conversation today.

[00:01:30] You're kind of have an unusual story, which is the typical MSP comes at this as a, you know, I'm a super technical engineer type of person.

[00:01:40] And so tell me about how and why you started.

[00:01:43] So I was the, I was the sales manager for a larger local VAR that also did staffing.

[00:01:54] Um, I also was their training manager due to headcount reductions, uh, ran our Microsoft training center.

[00:02:02] And then I also did technical sales, engineering conversations, et cetera.

[00:02:09] Plus also did selling as well.

[00:02:11] So I had lots of different hats on that were not really necessarily related, but, um,

[00:02:16] um, that company did it support for a very large, um, fortune 100 company and did staffing for them, um, all over the place.

[00:02:27] And we did fulfillment for them from a procurement standpoint all over the world.

[00:02:31] In fact, well, when they lost their contract, um, for various things over the course of about two and a half, three years,

[00:02:42] the owner just, I think got discouraged and didn't want to kind of reboot the company,

[00:02:48] which is really what would have been almost needed and decided that there was an exit point here and he was taking the ramp.

[00:02:55] And so I went to, I, I had a non-compete that was pretty well-written.

[00:03:02] And he, I said, what are we gonna do with our clients?

[00:03:05] And he said, I, I don't really care.

[00:03:07] It's not my problem once we close.

[00:03:09] And I said, well, can I have some of them?

[00:03:12] And he said, sure.

[00:03:14] Go talk to, go talk to AR.

[00:03:17] And so I went down there and I asked them one simple question.

[00:03:20] Who pays their bills early and on time?

[00:03:22] Yeah.

[00:03:25] And I walked back up to him with that list.

[00:03:28] Some of whom weren't even my clients.

[00:03:30] They were other salespeople's clients.

[00:03:33] And, um, he got out a red pen literally and drew lines through everybody I couldn't have.

[00:03:38] And then word of what I'd done got around.

[00:03:41] And, uh, literally out of that company, five IT companies launched.

[00:03:46] Wow.

[00:03:47] So, um, and there are two left.

[00:03:52] So 21 years later, but, um,

[00:03:56] but bottom line is, is I came at it from a sales person point of view, not from a engineer.

[00:04:03] My mistake was I had audited all of our training classes and I hired myself as our first technician.

[00:04:09] So if I could do anything over again, I would have actually hired a technician and stayed in sales full time.

[00:04:16] But, uh.

[00:04:16] Yeah.

[00:04:16] So tell me, tell me about that.

[00:04:18] Was it how many years you were, you were kind of flat when you started growth wise?

[00:04:25] We were, we grew steadily, um, for, from, for the first five years till 2008, 2008, we lost a hundred percent of our, um, municipal K through 12 clients in a single year.

[00:04:41] Oh, wow.

[00:04:42] Due to some local municipal drama, uh, that we were not involved in directly.

[00:04:49] And, uh, but we were, we were put, you know, we were given the ax, uh, as a result.

[00:04:55] Um, but that was also the year that I had launched our MSP practice.

[00:04:58] And so that saved our bacon, you know, I thank God that, uh, like that actually happened because without it, we would have, we would have died.

[00:05:06] We would have been gone.

[00:05:07] And 2008 wasn't a great year for many reasons, but that just compounded it.

[00:05:11] And so, um, I mean, literally our line of credit was called and it turned out that Bank of America used it as an investment vehicle for a single human.

[00:05:21] And he wanted his money back and they said, we're calling Atlanta credit.

[00:05:24] I said, oh, okay.

[00:05:26] Why is that?

[00:05:27] They said, well, the investor, investor singular wants his money back.

[00:05:32] And I thought, what, how is this even possible?

[00:05:34] This is Bank of America.

[00:05:36] Right.

[00:05:36] Anyway.

[00:05:38] Yeah.

[00:05:38] And, or we could convert it to a 24.9% loan, which seems reasonable, I guess.

[00:05:43] So needless to say, we paid that off.

[00:05:44] But, uh, but the bottom line is, is that, um, after that, um, from about 2009 to 2000, well, I guess from, we grew from 2008 through till, um, right around 2009, couple of years we grew again.

[00:06:07] But then we just, we kind of got stuck right around half a million dollars and we couldn't seem to get too far past it.

[00:06:14] And it wasn't until I joined a peer group, um, that involved marketing as well.

[00:06:22] Cause I had been involved in peer groups since the, uh, shortly after, um, I started the MSP side in 08, um, with weekly accountability from people who are really interested in doing sales activities.

[00:06:37] That, um, the difference was made.

[00:06:39] But the, the, the biggest thing for me is the fact that I, I had to realize that I was the problem.

[00:06:46] Founders of Google hired a CEO early days.

[00:06:50] Um, Mark Zuckerberg, like him, loathe him, whatever your deal is.

[00:06:56] Uh, he decided to be the CEO that Facebook needed and to become that when they went into China, he learned Chinese.

[00:07:03] Like it's, you know, um, you don't have to like the fellow to appreciate the fact that he's done, put the work in to try to become what the company needs.

[00:07:13] And so I had the decision, do I become what the person, the person that I need to be to run this business?

[00:07:17] Do I find another company to buy my business?

[00:07:20] Do I find somebody else to run my company?

[00:07:22] And I just came to the realization that the company was flat because I had grown to the level of my own incompetence.

[00:07:27] Right.

[00:07:28] And so I, it's the, um, it's, uh, the law of the lid, right?

[00:07:35] In the 21 laws of leadership, that's one of the things that, um, are spoken about is the law of the lid and I was the lid.

[00:07:42] And so, um, I needed to raise the lid.

[00:07:45] And so I just went to the school of business books, you know, listened to everybody I could at a conference and decided to improve me.

[00:07:56] And that was the biggest thing, uh, I did.

[00:07:59] And the company has grown steadily since then.

[00:08:03] Um, but that was the main thing.

[00:08:06] I realized that I was the issue.

[00:08:08] And even today, my goal is to constantly raise the level of my own incompetence.

[00:08:13] You know, I'm in a sales peer group.

[00:08:15] Why?

[00:08:15] Because I want an accountability group.

[00:08:17] Why?

[00:08:17] So I can increase my ability to be a good salesperson.

[00:08:20] You know, I have a coach.

[00:08:22] Why?

[00:08:23] Because he's an executive coach who successfully exited his business and grew really big business in a specific vertical.

[00:08:29] Well, great.

[00:08:30] That's something that I'm looking to do.

[00:08:31] Not exit, but grow a strong business in a specific vertical.

[00:08:35] Um, and so.

[00:08:37] So it's, I guess it was just recognition of my own failures that led me to try to get better.

[00:08:45] And I literally went around and apologized to every stakeholder in my life for finding kind of joy in the journey and, you know, uh, or, or maybe not join the journey, but satisfaction and struggle.

[00:08:57] And said, look, you know, I owe you an apology.

[00:08:59] I've, I've, I've been busy and I've been ineffective.

[00:09:03] But because I was busy and I thought I was doing my best.

[00:09:07] And maybe I was, I have, I've under delivered to what I promised you when I went out to start this thing.

[00:09:14] And so, um, and it's been mostly up since then, but you know, not all, not everything is upward trending.

[00:09:23] But, um, but yeah, that was the main thing is just the, uh, the fact that I, I needed to improve me to, to run a better business.

[00:09:34] The law of the lid is a great one.

[00:09:36] Um, I'm curious, uh, uh, a few things I want to unpack there.

[00:09:44] One is how did you have the thoughts or foresight to talk or apologize to share to what you called stakeholders?

[00:09:55] And a lot of us, we build a business and it's, and it's ours or it's just us and a partner or something like that.

[00:10:01] So what do you mean by stakeholders?

[00:10:03] Just one question.

[00:10:04] And, and, and that seems awfully smart, but, uh, I know in other cases I'm like, oh, well now I've learned.

[00:10:12] But when you don't have to be accountable to anyone but yourself, it's easy to, to kind of skip that kind of step and realize there really are other stakeholders.

[00:10:21] I mean, um, so I just realized that, um, when I had kind of asked my wife to go on the journey with me by declaring, um, I'm never going to work for anybody ever again.

[00:10:46] Uh, which probably was a fairly terrifying thing for a, um, young, young mother of, of, of two to here.

[00:10:56] Um, right.

[00:10:57] You know, and, uh, and, you know, damn the torpedoes full speed ahead type approach.

[00:11:06] Um, and when my dad decided to become my business partner, sacrificing the, his kind of highest wage earning years, right?

[00:11:15] The last 10 to 15 professional years that you have is really when you can kind of make bank.

[00:11:21] Um, when I had hired people and talked to them about where the direction and the trajectory that I envisioned for the company.

[00:11:29] So their professional career was kind of hinged on my ability to execute on plans, giving them upward mobility financially and professionally.

[00:11:40] If I hadn't delivered on that, um, and, and so I realized that I needed to either get out of the way or get out in front and start, you know, it's the pace of the leader determines the, you know, um, the speed of leader determines the pace of the pack, right?

[00:12:00] I realized I need to do better.

[00:12:02] And because of the fact that I realized that I had asked people for sacrifice that I never realized I was asking for, like, I didn't think about it, but I w I was sacrificing their hopes and dreams by slowing down success.

[00:12:22] And so, um, you know, there, there's a lot of things that are on the other side of success, right?

[00:12:29] Whether it's financial or time or, um, you know, mental health, peace of mind, you know, there, there's a lot of things that are on the other side of success.

[00:12:41] And it's not that you necessarily ever arrive, but if you're always in survival mode, you're on the bottom of Maslow's, uh, pyramid and, and, and, and food and shelter are the things that you're concerned with and you never get to legacy or anything else.

[00:12:57] So if you're constantly having people worried about their future or feeling threatened or, you know, they don't have the opportunity, um, I mean, it'd be like a SWOT analysis where basically you only ever had the W and the T and that's terrible.

[00:13:14] Right.

[00:13:15] So you want to have strengths and opportunities too.

[00:13:19] Like, and if it's just weaknesses and threats, well, that's kind of a problem.

[00:13:21] So, and so I just, I felt like I just hadn't given them enough opportunity to get to what they want because oftentimes, and this is my, this was my reasoning beyond not wanting to be an entrepreneur.

[00:13:35] I remember stating this to a friend I've driven, I've bought cars I've never driven.

[00:13:39] I've, I've bought houses I've never lived in and I've bought boats and gone on and bought vacations I've never, ever been on or gone on.

[00:13:49] And when I work for somebody else, they determined the education of my children, where we lived, what, when I was hungry, when I wanted to wake up, when I was tired.

[00:14:01] And I just, you know, like that's the level of trust that someone puts their life that someone puts in their employer.

[00:14:09] I mean, it's kind of seems draconian when you think about it that way, but to a degree it is.

[00:14:15] I mean, it's, you know, you're, you're, you're banking on them, not screwing this whole thing up and making it so you have an opportunity to, to grow and, and to, to become what you would like to be.

[00:14:28] And if not, then you move on to something else and they should hopefully celebrate that move because they want success in your life, not just you to be some, you know, quiet and, you know, productive drone.

[00:14:39] And so I just, I knew that I needed to apologize and maybe I didn't, but, but for my own peace of mind and kind of the right thing to do, one of our core values is do the right things right.

[00:14:52] And that was the right thing to do.

[00:14:54] It was just, no one asked me for it, but it was the right thing to do was to just be frank and say, look, I've screwed up and I'm going to do better.

[00:15:01] And, and I, I made a, I actually made a bargain with my wife.

[00:15:04] I said, I'm going to ask you to let me work like a crazy man for five years.

[00:15:10] And if you let me do that, then I promise that it won't, that five-year period won't happen again.

[00:15:17] And, and we would have gone, we would got to the other side and to her credit, she did.

[00:15:25] And, um, you know, and we don't, we haven't gone through that five-year period again, you know, and we, and at the same time, I think also once you know, you can do it, then no matter what the world throws at you, you're not scared because you know your worth and you know that you can just do it again, you know?

[00:15:45] And so if this thing all blew up tomorrow, I have no doubts in my mind that I could build a bigger, better business faster because I've already done, I've got the scars and the, the, the knowledge that go along with those experiences.

[00:15:57] I think that's super valuable.

[00:15:59] Once you understand you can do it, you could do it again.

[00:16:02] You know, your, your value, like you said.

[00:16:05] Hey guys, today's episode is sponsored by Servocity.

[00:16:10] I created Servocity because I was an MSP that lost data.

[00:16:15] Then I had to go in front of my client and tell them I can't recover.

[00:16:19] If you've ever been there or worried that you would be there, then you may want to take a look at Servocity.

[00:16:25] We do two things that nobody else is crazy enough to do.

[00:16:29] We test your backups maniacally.

[00:16:31] Do that daily, weekly, monthly, and quarterly for you.

[00:16:35] Then we manage the backups for you so you can focus on growing your MSP instead of babysitting backups.

[00:16:42] If you're interested in our unlimited storage or immutable storage or any of the things that I'm talking about, visit servocity.com.

[00:16:55] How, we talked before about that and your culture.

[00:17:02] So how do you, how do you infuse your culture with that kind of mindset around, you know, we're, we're asking you to have a stake in this, but we're, we're not necessarily asking you to give up everything or work around the clock for us.

[00:17:17] I mean, my team, I think knows the fact that I, I care about them and I want their success in life more than just nine to five.

[00:17:29] And we, you know, we, I, I genuinely don't bring on clients who are open 24 seven, run three shifts, or even try, I try to minimize the amount of clients we have who are on the weekend for the very reason that I, I think it impacts your quality of life when you're on call and you're wondering if the shoe's going to drop on the weekend.

[00:17:49] And so, um, intentionally try to, like, we don't take on retail accounts.

[00:17:55] We have a couple of clients that have retail and, but the end is really what they're about.

[00:18:00] And the retail is the, on the other side of the end.

[00:18:03] And, um, so it's, and I set the expectation with our clients that, you know, it's, we're not, we're not geared for that.

[00:18:12] Um, and, and then also I have a policy here that if you want to learn, sorry, earn, you should learn.

[00:18:20] So in the words, I believe that the value is a two way street and that you, if you want to get value, you need to give value.

[00:18:27] And the more value you can give, the more you'll be compensated.

[00:18:30] And if you're not, then you should move on to another opportunity.

[00:18:33] But the fact of the matter is, is that it's a fair exchange.

[00:18:35] If I bring you more value, I should expect more value from you financially.

[00:18:39] Right.

[00:18:39] And, um, and so we're very, we don't pay the highest wages around.

[00:18:46] We pay very competitive wages.

[00:18:48] But for example, I give people five weeks PTO right when they start.

[00:18:53] Um, and I apologize.

[00:18:55] This printer that's been quiet for three days decided to just suddenly refresh its fuser or something.

[00:19:01] I don't even know.

[00:19:02] Anyway, um, it's only going to happen when you're doing something like this.

[00:19:07] Like HP's got it timed.

[00:19:09] Like, this is a salient point.

[00:19:10] Let's go now.

[00:19:11] Go.

[00:19:12] That's right.

[00:19:13] And so, uh, but I mean, I, I tell the team that, you know, I want you to be, um, willing

[00:19:24] to dream a little bit about your future, about what you really want to do.

[00:19:28] And it doesn't have to be here.

[00:19:30] However, I don't, I want to help you get to where you want to be.

[00:19:33] And if it's here that can facilitate that, awesome.

[00:19:37] And if it's not, I'd rather you were wholly successful in life, uh, than just, you know,

[00:19:41] stuck in a nine to five job here at the company because I want people to want to be here.

[00:19:46] And I think, I think that the fact that we give permission for people to screw up, um,

[00:19:53] is, is, uh, creates a safe space.

[00:19:55] You know, I fully expect everybody to make a mistake, but I expect you to learn from your

[00:19:59] mistakes and not continue to repeat them.

[00:20:01] But I'm not going to come down on you and because you made a mistake, you know, um,

[00:20:05] you're not going to get fired because you made a mistake.

[00:20:08] You know, and I told, I tell people, there's almost nothing you can do that's going to tank

[00:20:12] the company.

[00:20:13] Like you're not that powerful.

[00:20:15] Like I, even me, I probably could, I mean, if I go on a crime spree or something or some

[00:20:20] crosshead ax murderer, well then maybe I could do the, do us all in.

[00:20:23] But beyond that, I'm probably not going to be able to mess this whole thing up.

[00:20:27] And so the level of risk is lower than you think it is.

[00:20:30] But at the same time, I fully expect that you will make mistakes because if you're not

[00:20:34] making mistakes, you're not trying.

[00:20:36] I expect you to try.

[00:20:39] And so every week we literally have a meeting called the bag lunch and people have to bring

[00:20:44] something bad and then hopefully something good that happened that week.

[00:20:47] And the bads are, what can we avoid in the future through process, training, procedure,

[00:20:53] communication?

[00:20:54] In other words, how can we, how can we figure it out?

[00:20:56] If it's just a thing that happened, that was a bad, you know, you made a mistake and you

[00:20:59] won't make it again.

[00:21:00] That's not worthy of it.

[00:21:01] But if it's something that we can troubleshoot to figure out how to make it better, then that's

[00:21:06] good.

[00:21:06] And sometimes I've been the subject of the bag lunch.

[00:21:09] Like I've been the bad, you know, like I've done the thing or whatever the situation is.

[00:21:15] And so, for example, I require everybody to be on camera because it's a whole lot harder

[00:21:19] to be a jerk to somebody if you're looking at them in the face, even across, you know,

[00:21:22] Teams or Zoom.

[00:21:25] So, and the goal is to continually improve, but you only do that if you're looking at your

[00:21:31] failures and learning from them.

[00:21:32] Right.

[00:21:33] There's a great book called The Gap Versus the Gain from Dr. Ben Hardy and Dave Sullivan.

[00:21:41] And it's, it's look forward, but measure backwards.

[00:21:44] Right.

[00:21:44] So don't discourage yourself by keep resetting in front of yourself, but instead go back

[00:21:49] and look to see how far we've come.

[00:21:51] Great.

[00:21:52] It's showing progress.

[00:21:53] Let's celebrate that.

[00:21:54] And now let's continue to do this, the slog, you know, up the mountain.

[00:21:59] And, but if you can, so you have to celebrate the things, but at the same time, you also,

[00:22:05] I think, need to look for the, like it says in the book, you look for the lessons and the

[00:22:11] losses instead of the, and just the wins.

[00:22:13] You understand what can we draw from this and learn and improve.

[00:22:16] And then, and life is about iteration anyway.

[00:22:19] It's just continual small changes to get better and to continue to improve.

[00:22:23] Very few things are just transformational.

[00:22:25] You know, there's a few things that are like that in life, but a lot of the times it's

[00:22:29] just iterative.

[00:22:31] Yeah.

[00:22:32] I completely understand that.

[00:22:36] We, tell me if this is accurate.

[00:22:38] We found some stuff from a podcast you've been before.

[00:22:42] And I think you said something to the effect of, you maybe have a quarter of the customers

[00:22:46] you had 10 years ago.

[00:22:48] Yeah.

[00:22:48] We had, we had over, at one point, I think we had over 300 clients.

[00:22:53] We now have 50.

[00:22:57] And revenue is down or up?

[00:23:01] It's same.

[00:23:03] Multiples of what it was back then.

[00:23:06] Yeah.

[00:23:06] So I love that because it's counterintuitive, but it also talks of, it goes to focus and I

[00:23:12] think some, a few other things, but I'll let you say them.

[00:23:14] How do you go from 300 to 50 ish or whatever the number is?

[00:23:18] And, you know, more, not even the same, more revenue, multiples, more revenue.

[00:23:25] Everybody's designed to serve somebody, some type of business best.

[00:23:32] And I think that if you can figure out what that is and lean into that, then you will be

[00:23:37] able to deliver the most value and derive the most value from it.

[00:23:41] And the great book by Mike Michalow, it's called The Pumpkin Plan.

[00:23:45] That was the kind of trigger that unlocked that for me and my business partner, my dad

[00:23:49] at the time.

[00:23:50] And we pumpkin planned our business back in 2014.

[00:23:54] And I shut down two portions of our business and fired a bunch of clients.

[00:23:59] And it was great.

[00:24:02] I mean, I was probably too aggressive.

[00:24:04] You know, I hurt us for a couple of years after that financially by being a little too

[00:24:10] aggressive with that.

[00:24:12] I should have slowed my role a little bit instead of being like, that's it.

[00:24:18] You're gone.

[00:24:19] You know?

[00:24:21] I love that because you have so many, you've got this measured business and measurements

[00:24:27] and KPIs and metrics and all these things.

[00:24:29] You seem so measured.

[00:24:32] And I think I would have been scared to let go.

[00:24:34] And, you know, you kind of burned your boats.

[00:24:36] Yeah.

[00:24:37] I mean, I definitely, I can be rash at times.

[00:24:51] And also, once I make up my mind about something, there's very little chance of you convincing

[00:24:59] me otherwise once I'm convinced.

[00:25:01] Right?

[00:25:02] So there's a verse in the Bible that actually says about being fully convinced.

[00:25:06] And I love that.

[00:25:08] Like, I can't tell you what the rest of it is, but it says fully convinced.

[00:25:12] And I love the fact that it says fully convinced.

[00:25:15] And there are definitely times where I've been fully convinced.

[00:25:17] And I think at that point, it goes from your brain to your heart.

[00:25:21] And now you can just move in confidence.

[00:25:23] And I felt that if I did this very definite step out the side of the plane, making it a one-way door,

[00:25:36] that the team would know that I meant what I said.

[00:25:41] And they didn't like these other parts of the business anyway.

[00:25:44] It was the least valuable portion of the business as far as I was concerned.

[00:25:48] It certainly was the direction the company was going in.

[00:25:50] And so I just, you know, peace out, home slice, and out the door I went.

[00:25:56] And that was kind of how I did it.

[00:25:57] And in retrospect, I probably could have slowed that down and been more strategic about how we did it,

[00:26:06] possibly retaining some accounts by being a bit more nuanced in our approach.

[00:26:11] But I don't think I was that sophisticated back then.

[00:26:15] So I couldn't, I don't know that I could have actually handled the nuance.

[00:26:20] So instead it was just a clear cut.

[00:26:23] It comes with time, right?

[00:26:23] Yeah, exactly.

[00:26:25] I'm better now than I was a decade ago.

[00:26:29] So, you know, I had less finesse and less nuance to me back then.

[00:26:36] So a bit more gristle, I guess.

[00:26:41] I was trying to think, is it, could it be possibly Romans 4, 21,

[00:26:47] where they're speaking about Abraham's faith and trust in God?

[00:26:50] And it says he's fully convinced that God was able to do what he promised?

[00:26:54] Yeah, it's probably the faith chapter for sure.

[00:26:57] And, but yeah, yeah.

[00:26:59] Like, I think you're, I think you're probably spot on there.

[00:27:02] But, but yeah, I mean, it's just, yeah.

[00:27:06] And actually it is from the faith chapter.

[00:27:08] And it's a great, forget your religious beliefs.

[00:27:12] If you want to see conviction in action, that's a good chapter to read.

[00:27:15] So, yeah, yeah.

[00:27:18] I couldn't agree more.

[00:27:21] So I want to kind of stay on that for a moment.

[00:27:24] You, you cut more aggressively, cut faster, but connect the dots.

[00:27:33] How do you, you said the thing that is somewhat obvious,

[00:27:37] although it's only obvious in hindsight, in my experience,

[00:27:39] that you're designed to serve a certain type of customer.

[00:27:42] And there's some focus there.

[00:27:44] But after cutting those customers, perhaps a little too quickly and focusing,

[00:27:50] cutting divisions, like what was involved?

[00:27:52] Because you're, I imagine if you have six times less customers,

[00:27:56] a good bit more revenue, that probably means a lot more focus,

[00:28:00] a lot happier team, probably better EBITDA and margins.

[00:28:03] So I don't want to, I don't want to, you know, but I want to understand that

[00:28:07] because it's not, well, it sounds great, but it's not always obvious.

[00:28:14] So there's a term in our industry, which I'm sure is in others,

[00:28:18] but I'm not in other industries, so I can't say for sure,

[00:28:20] but they call it stickiness, right?

[00:28:21] Like it's how much do you have the ability to weather some incident,

[00:28:29] some price challenge, some whatever that makes your offering quote sticky.

[00:28:36] And so if you do it just to try to make sure you guys don't get fired,

[00:28:44] then I think you're coming at it with the wrong heart and mindset in it.

[00:28:51] If you genuinely think that you care more and do a better job than

[00:28:59] and are delivering a better service that's better for your client,

[00:29:06] well then I think you have a moral obligation to try to put those choices in front of them

[00:29:12] and show them why you believe that.

[00:29:15] And if you're wrong, then by all means,

[00:29:18] then they should make a decision away from your business in maybe some of those areas.

[00:29:23] And I don't think you can be all things to all people either.

[00:29:26] But at the same time, I do think you need,

[00:29:29] you have the ability to, an obligation to bring forth products that,

[00:29:34] and services that align with what you're doing and help your client in certain ways.

[00:29:41] And like, so for us, we do less now than we did 10 years ago.

[00:29:50] But the things we do, we do better.

[00:29:54] And the things that we don't do, we now refer to really good partners who are excellent.

[00:30:02] And...

[00:30:02] So less in terms of width of service or product offering?

[00:30:07] But more depth in those product offerings, right?

[00:30:11] We're more comprehensive than we used to be,

[00:30:13] but we're doing less of the things that we used to do.

[00:30:16] And that's not true of every IT company,

[00:30:18] but we were pretty, we had a pretty wide footprint.

[00:30:22] Mostly because of our VAR and project focus back in the day.

[00:30:26] So, and your margins are better because when you offer, when you...

[00:30:35] So, I was in a meeting yesterday,

[00:30:38] and the guy next to me was talking about his lack of standardization.

[00:30:42] He didn't frame it that way.

[00:30:43] He just basically said,

[00:30:44] we'll pretty much take on whatever equipment the clients got.

[00:30:48] Yeah, I hear that.

[00:30:50] It was pretty, pretty awful.

[00:30:51] Yeah, it was just terrible,

[00:30:52] because you can't be an expert in 10 different types of phone systems and firewalls and endpoint products and whatever.

[00:30:59] You can't.

[00:30:59] So, your team can deliver better support and have a better experience if they know more about less things and better for everybody.

[00:31:09] And so that's the goal.

[00:31:10] You have to work that way.

[00:31:12] And at the same time, you should try to encourage your clients to consume as much as you offer.

[00:31:21] So that if there's a thing that you have, they have it.

[00:31:24] And your goal should be to get clients like that.

[00:31:26] Because they're the ones you're going to be able to deliver the most value to and get the most value from.

[00:31:32] And at the same time, it's also an endorsement of your company's value to them and the service delivery, etc.

[00:31:41] On the flip side of that is the fact that you also –

[00:31:48] if you do have things that you don't want to become experts in or that you know there are gaps or that you see as a threat or weakness for your client,

[00:31:58] then you have an obligation to find good vendor partners and referral partners to try to make sure you're still steering them in that direction.

[00:32:05] Because if you're a technologist, you're going to be asked to give technology advice.

[00:32:09] And that means that they're going to look to you to tell them who to go to for websites or phone systems or copiers or printers or, you know, I don't know, whatever you can think of.

[00:32:20] Cyber insurance, right?

[00:32:21] And I'll give you for instance, right?

[00:32:24] So we have a really comprehensive cybersecurity offering.

[00:32:29] We went out and had our cybersecurity offering rated by insurers.

[00:32:36] So that they know that a client running our full stack is an extremely low risk to them.

[00:32:43] That means that our clients pay less money for their insurance even though it doesn't benefit us financially at all.

[00:32:52] Because I believe you can't make money off of like clients' insurance policies and I can't sell an insurance policy to them, etc.

[00:33:00] But anyway, the bottom line is that I knew we were doing a high standard and I knew that there should be some sort of benefit to that because I'd seen the questions on cyber insurance.

[00:33:11] And we have a good rating as a company for cyber liability.

[00:33:15] And we pay a very reasonable amount considering the amount of risk that a normal MSP carries.

[00:33:22] And I thought, well, if we're that low risk, our clients have got to be low risk.

[00:33:28] And so we talked to a bunch of insurers out there and found a couple and ended up narrowing it down to one who made it super simple for our clients to just do a one-page application.

[00:33:38] And we just validate the stack and then bam, they get coverage and they save sometimes 25 to 30% on their insurance, sometimes more up to 50% on their insurance.

[00:33:49] Why?

[00:33:49] Well, because we have a company that has validated that we're doing the right thing and making them safe.

[00:33:55] And so that's an example of us, even though we don't specifically get more value derived from the customer financially, we're saving them money, which makes us stickier, makes us a better value.

[00:34:08] At the same time, it also makes them much more likely to adopt our full tech stack.

[00:34:13] Now there's incentive that helps offset those costs.

[00:34:17] And so, again, our client becomes more valuable to us.

[00:34:20] At the same time, we're keeping them safer and they're saving money on insurance.

[00:34:25] So the total cost of the relationship is lower.

[00:34:30] I love that out-of-the-box thinking in terms of getting rated by an insurance carrier, right?

[00:34:36] That's kind of unusual, unorthodox, out-of-the-box thinking.

[00:34:41] And then at the end of the day, it's the value you provide.

[00:34:44] So that's – even if you don't charge a dollar extra for it, it's –

[00:34:49] TCO ROI, right?

[00:34:52] Yeah.

[00:34:53] Like we had a client once where we re-architected everything that touched tech.

[00:35:00] The end result was they spent $12,000 a year more with us on tech support than they spent with anybody else previously.

[00:35:07] And they saved $24,000 a year net because of their relationship with us on all of their tech things wrapped in together.

[00:35:18] So we were $12,000 more, but we still managed to save them $24,000 a year.

[00:35:23] So it's – the end result was we were basically a huge savings for them.

[00:35:30] And, you know, every third year was free because of the fact we spent so much money.

[00:35:37] Yeah, that's gigantic.

[00:35:40] I think most MSPs want to get there, but at least if they're aware of this, which is making this IT an advantage, not just a call center.

[00:35:50] So how do you do that?

[00:35:52] You have to be a trusted advisor and you have to be willing to – you have to be willing to be interested in their business, right?

[00:36:04] Nonprofit, for profit, doesn't matter.

[00:36:06] You have to be interested in their business.

[00:36:07] You need to understand what are their pain points.

[00:36:12] At one point I ran a consulting company for small businesses and I specifically – it was honestly – it was a retirement project for me.

[00:36:21] And I decided during COVID, some people were learning how to become, you know, bartenders or whatever they were doing in their own houses.

[00:36:28] But I decided I'd start a consulting company.

[00:36:31] So I spun up in a consulting company for 12 months and did consulting for people transitioning from VAR and break-fix shops to MSP.

[00:36:38] Did that for a year and thoroughly enjoyed it.

[00:36:44] But the thing is, is that you – people can do whatever they want with their companies.

[00:36:53] And I personally think that the two most powerful forces of transformation the world has ever seen is the power of entrepreneurship.

[00:37:02] And I'm also a strong Christian Protestant believer.

[00:37:08] And the other one is basically salvation and Jesus.

[00:37:11] And I – the transformative – and I'm just speaking personally.

[00:37:16] I know what my life was pre and I know what it's been since.

[00:37:19] And transformed is the way I can describe both those experiences.

[00:37:23] And the power of entrepreneurship to write your own check, to change your family tree forever is powerful.

[00:37:32] And so I genuinely want people to have the opportunity to be successful in the businesses that they set out to start.

[00:37:40] Whether that's a nonprofit and they want to deliver on their mission statement and serve the most people the best.

[00:37:46] Or they want to be the best, you know, construction company doing great work.

[00:37:52] Or, you know, whatever it is.

[00:37:54] Like I want them to be able to get out of the kind of, you know, entrepreneurial rat race where they're just trying to – just trading time for money.

[00:38:05] And they start to think about more than just the survival mode and get into the thing, the legacy and the creation of wealth they can get into.

[00:38:15] And the creation of opportunity for their team they can get into.

[00:38:17] So I genuinely want our clients to get to that or if they're there to be able to do that better.

[00:38:27] Because I love where I live.

[00:38:30] You know, I think we're in a great part of the world.

[00:38:33] You know, I'm here in New England and Connecticut.

[00:38:36] And, you know, besides taxes, the rest of it's pretty good.

[00:38:40] And if I can help the businesses and nonprofits in our area succeed, well, then it's only going to be a net positive for this place that I call home.

[00:38:51] And I genuinely want them to be successful.

[00:38:55] And I firmly believe that we are the best choice and not by a little margin.

[00:39:01] We're like the best choice by a big margin.

[00:39:04] And so I just have to do a better job of getting the word out there that we are the right choice.

[00:39:09] But, again, we're not the right choice for everybody because some people, they – like you have to define what okay is for you and your business.

[00:39:19] And for some people, there's different – for everybody, there's different levels of what okay looks like.

[00:39:24] And I always tell prospects – I don't tell them.

[00:39:27] I ask them.

[00:39:27] I said, have you defined what your ideal tech outcome looks like for your business?

[00:39:31] And they say, well, no.

[00:39:33] Most of them say no.

[00:39:34] And I say, well, if you don't know what success looks like, then you're going to be defined by whatever the success looks like for the vendor that you hire because their definition of tech success might not be the same as yours and you're going to be frustrated.

[00:39:47] So you could overbuy or you could underbuy but you need to have – you need to know what you want.

[00:39:52] It's like going into a restaurant and not having any idea what you want.

[00:39:55] You know, there's no way that they can satisfy you because they don't really know what you want.

[00:40:00] And if you say whatever and just, you know, Russian roulette pick off the menu, you know, you're probably not going to be satisfied.

[00:40:09] And so that's the thing.

[00:40:10] It's a matter of making sure that you know what you want.

[00:40:15] You know that you want to – like I think you have to be genuinely interested in the success and betterment of the people that you serve, clients and staff.

[00:40:28] So is it your belief in entrepreneurship, your belief in Jesus, tying it back to the beginning?

[00:40:35] You had words that very few people use, which is you talked about it's your moral obligation.

[00:40:40] Yeah.

[00:40:40] Is that why you use those words?

[00:40:44] So it's a conviction.

[00:40:46] Well, I think – I mean probably.

[00:40:48] I mean I can't really separate myself from what I think and believe is the paradigm I operate in.

[00:40:54] But at the same time, I think that there's a fair exchange that happens any time that money and a handshake get involved, so to speak.

[00:41:04] And I think that the very – the exchange of money for services means that you need to deliver on what you said you would do.

[00:41:13] I mean I'm the kind of person that I don't need a thank you from somebody who pays me because the fact they paid me is the thank you.

[00:41:21] Now, I know that's not everybody.

[00:41:22] It's not how everybody is wired.

[00:41:24] But that's why I'm wired.

[00:41:25] And so I expect people to be like the movie Catboys of old where their word is their bond and they're just going to do the thing.

[00:41:33] And so I think that there is a certain moral code in that – and I don't think it's necessarily even religious.

[00:41:42] To me, it's just logical.

[00:41:44] Like if I say – like if I look at my culture index score, my logic versus my emotion, I'm way on the logic side.

[00:41:54] I'm not quite a robot, but I'm way on the right-hand side of that scale.

[00:42:00] To me, it's logical that if I state I'm going to do something, that I then do it.

[00:42:06] And if I do it, I need to do it with the – to either the level of their expectation for how I will do it or better than their expectation on how they do it.

[00:42:20] I mean in the Bible, it does say do things unto the Lord, right?

[00:42:24] But not everybody believes what I believe.

[00:42:28] And so let's throw that out.

[00:42:29] But – so instead, how about you just do it to the level of expectation that would be considered to be at least industry standard for doing the thing or for what you'd be satisfied for that.

[00:42:41] And that's the kind of – that's a bit more dangerous because some people will eat crap food and think it's amazing.

[00:42:46] Like the first burger I ever had when I moved here from England as a little boy was a McDonald's cheeseburger.

[00:42:51] And I thought it was the most amazing burger I'd ever had, but that was based on a sample size of one burger.

[00:42:56] Yeah.

[00:42:56] And so today I wouldn't eat a McDonald's burger.

[00:42:59] But – and if you like them, God bless you.

[00:43:02] But it's – but the fact of the matter is is that it's understanding what are the expectations that your clients have.

[00:43:13] And I think you can find that if you just look at your sales talk track.

[00:43:19] Like you're communicating what you think is success to your prospects.

[00:43:24] And if you don't deliver on that, then you're not delivering on your brand promise.

[00:43:28] And I think that's where the obligation comes in where you just need to do the things that you said you're going to do and how you said you're going to do them.

[00:43:38] And more than anything, when I'm in prospect meetings, that is what I hear is the fact that they just don't feel like the other people care or do the things to the level that they should or could or did.

[00:43:53] And I think that's the big miss.

[00:43:55] I think that you have to – everybody is slightly different.

[00:44:00] I mean I – the best burger I ever had was at a Denny's and I've eaten really fancy burgers.

[00:44:07] But it was a Denny's burger that was amazing.

[00:44:10] I don't know.

[00:44:10] I won't apologize for it.

[00:44:12] I've never had a good burger there since.

[00:44:14] But that one was amazing.

[00:44:17] Maybe the chef immediately left, went to a Michelin star restaurant after that.

[00:44:21] She made my burger.

[00:44:22] But the point is is that there has to be some sort of standard.

[00:44:28] We have to deliver on it.

[00:44:29] And it needs to be – in my opinion, it shouldn't just be flat.

[00:44:35] It should be consistently getting better because you as a company should be getting better.

[00:44:41] Your skill sets should be being raised because you are doing it longer better.

[00:44:47] So a company who has been with you for five years should appreciate the services you deliver more now because you should be better than you were five years ago.

[00:44:57] Well, Stuart, you're so passionate about helping others with your consulting business you did for a year.

[00:45:04] I can tell that comes through in everything that you were saying.

[00:45:08] But you were open.

[00:45:09] You know, you hit that wall around half a million in revenue.

[00:45:12] I know so many MSPs, they never break past that.

[00:45:16] So if they're half a million, a million, I don't know, just anywhere in that ballpark or whatever wall it is, you've really grown more than most any MSP.

[00:45:26] What should they look for?

[00:45:31] What is it that you feel like has helped break through since then?

[00:45:35] There's a good book by Mike Michalowicz, who I'm a big fan of and friend of, wrote called Fix This Next.

[00:45:42] And it basically takes – he talks about Maslow's kind of pyramid but in the sense of a business version of that.

[00:45:53] And, yeah, I've got a caveat right there.

[00:45:55] And it's – the problem is that being busy doesn't fix the problem.

[00:46:06] And even making a change doesn't fix the problem.

[00:46:09] What fixes the problem is when you identify what's broken and then you look to see where you want to get.

[00:46:16] And then you only come up with a solution that addresses what's broken in the direction that you're trying to go.

[00:46:23] Because you can just change.

[00:46:25] You know, it's like there's a movie called Buckaroo Banzai.

[00:46:28] It's a terrible film.

[00:46:29] I wouldn't recommend it to anybody.

[00:46:30] But there's a famous line in it where it's wherever I go, there I am.

[00:46:33] Right?

[00:46:33] Or wherever you go, there you are.

[00:46:35] Right?

[00:46:36] The problem is is that like, you know, when you're on your seventh failed marriage and you think that all the women in the world suck,

[00:46:43] the problem is the only constant was you, pal.

[00:46:46] You know?

[00:46:46] Like maybe you're the problem and not the seven women.

[00:46:49] You know?

[00:46:50] Yeah.

[00:46:50] Like – and that's the thing.

[00:46:52] And so change for the sake of change is not good.

[00:46:55] It's just having the willingness to do the checkup from the neck up to have the – you know, put the mirror out there and just look to see what you see.

[00:47:06] I mean would you hire you to do your job?

[00:47:09] Would you pay you what you pay you to do what you're doing?

[00:47:12] Like are you delivering on the value proposition of time, money that you get paid?

[00:47:19] And if the answer is no, then you have to find somebody who's going to do it better or be the better person to do it better.

[00:47:24] You know?

[00:47:25] And that's just it.

[00:47:26] And again, it's not change for the sake of change.

[00:47:29] It's change that's going to get you towards the direction that you're trying to go.

[00:47:36] Because if you just want to get out of the circle, any way out of the circle is out of the circle.

[00:47:41] But if you are trying to get from point A to point B, plagiarizing the heck out of fixes next.

[00:47:47] But you're just – you're better off trying to go from A to B by moving in the direction of B.

[00:47:54] Even if it's like tacking like you're on a sailboat and you go a little bit away, you're still moving in the direction of B ultimately.

[00:48:02] And that's what you want.

[00:48:03] You want to continue to look for the – you know, the stocks, the things that are broken and then move in those directions.

[00:48:10] That gets you there.

[00:48:12] Was there an inflection point or something that just – the straw that broke the camel's back where you said, I've got to be that?

[00:48:20] Where you kind of realized that, you know, I've been maybe not only not changing but changing for change sake.

[00:48:27] Was there anything that helped you kind of say, oh, I need to go from A to B?

[00:48:34] I'll be frank with you.

[00:48:35] I can't get into the mindset of the person who made that decision any longer.

[00:48:47] I'm sure there was an inflection point where I knew I had to make a change.

[00:48:54] If I could – if there's anything, I would say it probably coincided with my 35th birthday because that's the first age I ever remember my dad being.

[00:49:08] Like he was obviously 34 and younger but I never knew his age.

[00:49:16] It seems weird but I never knew his age to the point where I remembered it.

[00:49:20] And I remember thinking of how successful my dad was at the age of 35 and at the age of 35 looking at myself and wondering if I measured up.

[00:49:33] And I didn't make the shift at 35 to be frank with you.

[00:49:37] I didn't.

[00:49:38] But at the same time, that was also when I started the MSP side of the business.

[00:49:43] It was 35.

[00:49:44] And it was the – I guess the beginning steps in the journey to being and running a better business.

[00:49:52] And so – and I'm sure there was probably some sort of situation, incident, trauma, whatever, something that prompted me to have that self-awareness moment.

[00:50:14] But I can't think of it specifically.

[00:50:16] I can tell you one thing that helped me a lot and I was actually teaching a Sunday school class to teenagers.

[00:50:23] And the lesson was on your resting point, your identity.

[00:50:29] And the example that they used was a blanket held on four corners with a ball bearing or a marble on it.

[00:50:35] And then if you pulled down on the blanket, the ball bearing or marble would invariably go to the low point in the blanket.

[00:50:40] And they basically said, you need to think about when things are going wrong or you're under stress, who do you see yourself as in that moment of stress?

[00:50:54] And I realized that I saw myself as an 18-year-old who had just discovered that he couldn't go into the Navy.

[00:51:03] Therefore, his college ride was gone and had just totaled his car and didn't know what he was going to do with his life.

[00:51:13] And I realized that no matter how old I was and how successful I was, I still felt less than because I identified with that kid.

[00:51:22] And I think I was maybe 40 at that time when I had that realization.

[00:51:27] Maybe I was 35. I don't remember.

[00:51:29] But somewhere between 35 and 40 is when it happened.

[00:51:31] And I took stock of who I was as a human.

[00:51:36] And I ran a successful business.

[00:51:38] I was a father with two beautiful kids.

[00:51:41] I had a wife who loved me.

[00:51:43] I had a house.

[00:51:44] I had employees who trusted me.

[00:51:46] And I had clients all over the place who depended on me.

[00:51:52] And I realized I was not that 18-year-old kid lost in the drift.

[00:51:55] And that mental reset for me is probably the single most significant change I've ever had in my life as far as mindset shift.

[00:52:08] It was just understand.

[00:52:10] And my set point is not how I was at the age of 35 or 40.

[00:52:16] Instead, I regularly reset my set point.

[00:52:18] But it's that identification that there was even a possibility that my identity was weirdly connected to this low point in my life was such a breath of fresh air because I stopped self-sabotaging.

[00:52:33] I basically installed my own glass ceiling that I was bumping my head against and shaking my fist at God and the universe.

[00:52:41] And the problem was I just didn't understand who I was and where I was or any of those things.

[00:52:47] I didn't value myself enough because I had this screwed up identity.

[00:52:51] And so that was probably the most significant change in my life as far as mindset is concerned.

[00:52:57] It was just that reset, that recognition of the fact that I just hadn't changed the image of who I really was to reality.

[00:53:08] I just hadn't aligned to that.

[00:53:12] Yeah, it's interesting.

[00:53:14] I feel like I know I struggle with identity or not feeling like enough and then you can change a lot and not always recognize that.

[00:53:22] Yeah, there's a friend of mine.

[00:53:25] He talks about – he's probably going to shake his head when he hears me say it because I'm not sure I'm going to misquote him.

[00:53:31] But basically he does these like things called like sky retreats or whatever.

[00:53:34] But once a quarter, he gets away and he thinks about his business and his life and he sits down with his wife and they plan out their next quarter together personally and professionally.

[00:53:44] And I think it's good because you – sometimes we're too much in the trenches and we can't see out of them.

[00:53:53] And so we need to get out and get away.

[00:53:56] I mean I just came back from two weeks, like almost two weeks in Montana, literally in Big Sky territory, you know, the Big Sky country.

[00:54:02] And just getting away from the business and just – not necessarily getting away from your family but getting away from your business is such an important thing because the distance helps you to see things more clearly, you know, because you're not in the fray.

[00:54:16] And I'm not suggesting everybody suddenly go relocate to Montana for a couple weeks.

[00:54:21] But I can tell you there was entire days where I had no cell service or data, you know, and, you know, that is what it is.

[00:54:30] I just – you know, you don't really have a lot of options at that point, you know.

[00:54:33] So basically – but just getting away, you know, some of the most, you know, aha moments I've had have been in times where either I've been talking to somebody else who didn't know me about my life or my business.

[00:54:47] And I heard myself say the thing out loud that it seemed like I was a crazy person when I say that because I was like, that's really stupid, you know.

[00:54:54] Like that doesn't make any sense and I'm not trying to justify this to a stranger who doesn't care about me or know me at all.

[00:54:58] And I'm just like – I'm like why?

[00:55:00] Like this isn't indefensible.

[00:55:01] This is ridiculous.

[00:55:02] Or you say something that you want to do and you realize like, man, I'm really – I'm passionate about that.

[00:55:07] Why am I not doing that thing, you know?

[00:55:11] You know, and so I think just being – getting into a – and I highly recommend peer groups where you can really truly be open with each other because that opportunity to get away from the echo chamber of your own thoughts or the people who you pay.

[00:55:26] So you sign their paychecks and they may not be as fully honest with you, not because they're trying to lie but because of the fact that they don't know the level of freedom that they have without possible, you know, payback.

[00:55:37] Like, you know, it's – you've got to get into a place where you can actually kind of in a cold manner, like a dispassionate way, look at the facts and sift through them and come up with a solution that's workable.

[00:55:54] So – and say the thing out loud that you've been thinking about that sounds amazing in your brain and the people that you share it with go, are you insane?

[00:56:01] That doesn't make any sense whatsoever, you know?

[00:56:04] Or tell me more.

[00:56:05] I'm intrigued, right?

[00:56:07] Like it could be either reaction but until you actually get that out into the world and somebody who cares about you genuinely and not looking to destroy you or make fun of you, like they have a safe space.

[00:56:19] That makes it so you now have an opportunity to, you know, to grow as an individual and to, you know, challenge those ideas and really see where they go.

[00:56:29] And so all those things have been good things and important things and the growth of me as a business owner and also me as a human and also the growth of this business has been a direct reflection of – and it's not just been me.

[00:56:41] It's like we have a fantastic team who, you know, who's pulling together with me in the same direction and I genuinely appreciate and value them.

[00:56:50] But at the same time, back to the law of the lid, you know, if you don't make space for people like that in your organization to grow and flourish, then you need to get out of the way because you're hurting them and your business.

[00:57:03] All said.

[00:57:05] I want to switch gears and ask what – after all these years, what would you say is the biggest lesson?

[00:57:13] Biggest lesson.

[00:57:16] Two things.

[00:57:17] One is be patient with yourself.

[00:57:20] You don't need to be hasty in every single decision.

[00:57:22] Some of you do.

[00:57:23] You need to be very decisive.

[00:57:24] But other times you can – you know, I can't remember if it was – I'm trying to think of what you said.

[00:57:32] It might be Tony Robbins.

[00:57:34] It might have been Richard Branson.

[00:57:37] But basically they said you kind of – I think you overestimate what you can do in a year.

[00:57:41] You underestimate what you can do in five or ten.

[00:57:44] And I think that, like, having the right perspective on things is super important.

[00:57:50] And part of that means being patient with yourself.

[00:57:53] And so that means that you need to have that iterative mindset to just get a little better.

[00:58:01] And thrashing around and making big changes is highly disruptive to your life and your business.

[00:58:09] And so much better to take measured steps and just continue to move forward in the direction that you know you want to go.

[00:58:17] So have that goal and have that vision for your business and your life.

[00:58:20] I love that.

[00:58:22] If there's one thing you could do over or change, what would that be?

[00:58:26] Hire a technician and not become that first tech.

[00:58:30] It was a critical mistake in the beginning.

[00:58:34] And if I was a technician, I would have hired a salesperson, right?

[00:58:38] Like, whatever I was doing – like, whatever you are, play to type and hire the other, you know?

[00:58:44] Like, it's just –

[00:58:45] Yeah.

[00:58:47] Don't do both.

[00:58:49] I mean, you can.

[00:58:50] I just don't recommend it if you want to go quickly.

[00:58:53] Like, you can always find people to do the things you're not good at.

[00:58:59] Just don't be so arrogant to think that you can do it better than – do everything better than everybody.

[00:59:04] That's a common entrepreneurial trait.

[00:59:07] It is.

[00:59:08] You know?

[00:59:09] That can-do attitude gets a little out of control.

[00:59:13] Speaking of common things, what's a common myth about running an MSP that you would like to dispel?

[00:59:19] I think everybody thinks that money just rolls in.

[00:59:24] Like, start an MSP and suddenly, like, a dump truck of cash just gets dumped in your lawn and you swim through it like Scrooge McDuck and you're going to end up being, you know, able to sail off into the sunset with the sale of your business.

[00:59:38] I think that a common myth about running an MSP is that everybody's going to have a big cash out moment.

[00:59:48] And I think that that is less likely now than probably ever before because people understand our business is better and so they know how to smell out a bad one from a good one.

[00:59:58] Some of the ones that sold in the last 10 years probably wouldn't be bought today, right?

[01:00:02] It's just at least certainly not at the price they were sold for.

[01:00:05] And so I think that you – the myth is that you can just show up and everybody throws money at you.

[01:00:15] I think you need to be a business professional when you run your MSP.

[01:00:20] And you need to understand the levers that you can turn to – I mean, I did one thing last year, one thing.

[01:00:27] And I added $750,000 in enterprise value to my company, one thing, executed over 90 days.

[01:00:36] And who – like, I got that information from a guy who was a consultant.

[01:00:41] And my point is that business professional.

[01:00:47] Do you know what I'm saying?

[01:00:48] Like, that's – like, that was literally –

[01:00:50] I increased my net worth $750,000 before taxes by doing one thing different.

[01:00:56] So –

[01:00:56] Can you share what that one thing is just out of curiosity?

[01:00:59] Sure.

[01:01:00] It's – I repriced all my agreements.

[01:01:03] It's – you know, I mean, instead of doing it over time, I literally went through my agreements and I checked the profitability of every single agreement.

[01:01:13] The alignment on every single agreement.

[01:01:15] And I changed the – I changed the agreements.

[01:01:21] And the thing is, is that it's – that was just a change in enterprise value.

[01:01:30] And it wasn't like there was a huge gap.

[01:01:31] It was just that – and that doesn't even talk about the amount of money that got added to our annual recurring revenue.

[01:01:35] That was just one shift doing that one thing.

[01:01:39] You know?

[01:01:39] And there's another thing that I'm working on next that will do that again.

[01:01:46] And it's – it's not the same for everybody.

[01:01:49] I was a little hesitant to say what I did because the fact that – like, it doesn't mean that that's the thing for you.

[01:01:55] But it's also the focus of just doing the thing.

[01:01:58] Like, I didn't do all the things.

[01:01:59] You know?

[01:02:00] Like, last year, I completely redid our – our team completely redid our security stack.

[01:02:06] And we completely shifted – we shifted five things, one after another.

[01:02:10] Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

[01:02:12] And the last thing we did was this agreement thing.

[01:02:16] Like, because we needed to know what the end was before we began at the beginning.

[01:02:21] And so we needed to fix the stuff before it, before we did the thing.

[01:02:24] And so doing that, I just had to be patient to do it in the right sequence and to get it done.

[01:02:35] And now we can move on to other things.

[01:02:36] But it's just – you know, you can't have 12 things you're trying to get done this year.

[01:02:41] You just need to get one done.

[01:02:42] And then once you're done with that, then get up to the next one.

[01:02:44] And if you do it fast enough, maybe you get 12 done.

[01:02:46] You know?

[01:02:47] But maybe you don't.

[01:02:48] Maybe you get three done.

[01:02:49] So why not start with the three high-impact items?

[01:02:52] You know?

[01:02:53] Yeah.

[01:02:53] What's going to move the needle the most?

[01:02:56] You know?

[01:02:56] Because none of us want to be working 12 hours a day and not seeing our families.

[01:03:00] So just what can you get done?

[01:03:01] Nine to five?

[01:03:02] You know?

[01:03:03] Seven to six?

[01:03:04] When can you get done?

[01:03:05] Seven to six?

[01:03:05] Like, that's really not going to impact your family that much if you're seven to six.

[01:03:09] And that's an 11-hour day.

[01:03:10] I'm not saying you should do it.

[01:03:11] I'm just saying you don't have to work 12 to 12.

[01:03:13] You just – you know, you can – or eight to 12.

[01:03:15] You can get it done if you just do a little bit.

[01:03:20] Yeah.

[01:03:21] Well, with all the years in and what's going on, a lot of change in the industry, in your business, what's something you're looking forward to?

[01:03:29] My daughter got married last month, and my wife and I are empty nesters.

[01:03:36] And we're shopping for a house.

[01:03:38] And so what am I looking forward to?

[01:03:40] I'm looking forward to the next chapter of the life with my wife and I because after 30 years of having kids at home, we don't have any kids at home.

[01:03:49] And so some people have kids when they're older.

[01:03:53] Some people have kids when they're younger.

[01:03:54] We had kids when we were younger.

[01:03:56] And so we have more money now than when we were younger.

[01:03:59] So, you know, we can do more expensive fun things than we can do when we were younger.

[01:04:04] I'm not saying either one of those is a good choice.

[01:04:06] Like, it's younger, older.

[01:04:09] Maybe it's right there in the middle.

[01:04:10] Maybe it's sprinkled out all the way through.

[01:04:13] But the thing I'm looking forward to is this next chapter in my life because I personally know that I've taken care of most – many of those Maslow, you know, the Michalowicz pyramid of business needs and hierarchy.

[01:05:00] And I like making a dent in the universe for good.

[01:05:03] And so I'm looking forward to that.

[01:05:06] You know, when you get out of the surviving mode into the thriving mode, it creates a bit more freedom to, I think, enjoy what you're doing.

[01:05:15] I love that.

[01:05:17] Congratulations.

[01:05:18] Yeah, we're not there yet where I want to be.

[01:05:20] But it's where, you know, I at least know where my next meal is coming from.

[01:05:24] I'll say that.

[01:05:24] There you go.

[01:05:25] Well, you're an empty nester.

[01:05:27] Like, there's a milestone to give yourself grace and –

[01:05:29] That's right.

[01:05:31] Is there a particular area with your company and your amazing team or industry that you're looking forward to?

[01:05:39] Leaning into serving those who serve others more is really kind of what I'm looking for.

[01:05:45] Like, right now, we have nonprofits that we serve.

[01:05:48] I want to serve more of them.

[01:05:50] Not to the exclusion of our other clients, but at the same time, helping nonprofits be able to run better businesses so that they can be more successful in delivering on their mission statements,

[01:06:06] brand promise, and do well.

[01:06:09] You know, some of the most innovative nonprofits suffer because they don't run good businesses and they don't know how to scale.

[01:06:19] And because they don't know how to scale, they never get a chance at the big grants or the big opportunities of the donors because they don't have the skeletal structure, the infrastructure to scale.

[01:06:32] Or they don't have the – I mean, unfortunately, when you start a nonprofit or you start a business, you don't go to – you don't – like, maybe you're a chiropractor or a doctor or a dentist or an architect.

[01:06:44] But you might not have any business courses in your college career.

[01:06:48] You know, you're an executive director, but you weren't taught how to run a business.

[01:06:52] You know, you taught how to do the things but not maybe do that, you know, do some of those pedantic, boring business things.

[01:06:59] And so I just think that that's helping companies be able to be better businesses.

[01:07:09] That's what I enjoy the most.

[01:07:11] That's the thing that I, you know – some of the things we're doing now with our clients are specifically aimed directly at that.

[01:07:18] You know, even some of the hires we've done recently and moving people around, it's specifically to help us really put that value add.

[01:07:30] You know, I want to be like a value-added MSP.

[01:07:33] That's a terrible acronym.

[01:07:35] So, you know, whatever.

[01:07:38] But, you know, the value I want to add is the ability to – maybe that's what I'll start calling myself from now on.

[01:07:44] I want to be like a VAR, VAR, value-added MSP.

[01:07:48] That'll be what we call it.

[01:07:49] But it's just – I think that's the thing that I'm looking forward to doing professionally more is just being able to help people run better businesses.

[01:07:59] Not that I have all the answers but, you know, I think sometimes just talking through their business with them, they don't have the opportunity to be in a peer group or they don't have an opportunity to get those thoughts out of their head.

[01:08:12] And sometimes it's not been anybody who's taught me anything.

[01:08:15] I've just been hearing myself say something out loud and I go – you know, either the BSO meter goes off and I sniff it out myself or I hear myself say something and I go, man, there's an opportunity here.

[01:08:28] I'd like to do more of that, less of that, whatever the deal is.

[01:08:31] What's the one book you would recommend after all that you've read, all that you know, that you think would help others the most?

[01:08:41] So this is the – those are the business books that have been most influential in the last couple of years with me.

[01:08:47] All right.

[01:08:48] I see a lot of Benjamin Hardy, Dan Sullivan.

[01:08:51] Yeah.

[01:08:51] So it's – I was on a little kick there for a while with that.

[01:08:54] But the things that probably reset my mindset more than anything else was I would say the trilogy of Who Not How, Gap and Gain and 10X is even 2X.

[01:09:12] The Permission to Run a Great Business Instead of a Big Business, Small Giants by Bo Burlingham.

[01:09:20] Surge and Clockwork by Mike Michalowicz.

[01:09:23] Surge is probably his least popular or successful book.

[01:09:26] But it's so good about understanding the mindset of your customer and finding your people, those you're best equipped to serve.

[01:09:34] So I think it's brilliant.

[01:09:36] Clockwork is a great business operating system for anybody under a million bucks.

[01:09:41] Compound Effect by Darren Hardy, understanding the power of iteration and small changes and choices.

[01:09:47] The Myth of Multitasking by Dave Crenshaw.

[01:09:50] You can't do it, so knock it off.

[01:09:53] Leadership by John Maxwell.

[01:09:55] Such a great book.

[01:09:57] Harold Dweck, don't listen to the audio book because it's terrible.

[01:10:00] You'll wreck your car or your bicycle.

[01:10:02] Called Mindset.

[01:10:04] I don't recommend the audio book.

[01:10:06] It's really not good.

[01:10:08] The publisher will come after me, but it's just not good.

[01:10:11] And then Profit First and the Pumpkin Plan by Michalowicz.

[01:10:17] Profit First so you don't go broke.

[01:10:19] And the Pumpkin Plan so you understand how to better serve your clients.

[01:10:24] So I know that wasn't one book, but whatever.

[01:10:27] I literally give books away to people starting businesses.

[01:10:30] I've got Profit First and the Pumpkin Plan in my backpack.

[01:10:33] I'm going to give it to a friend tomorrow who's starting a new business.

[01:10:37] And every year I give a book away to our clients.

[01:10:39] That was the most impactful book I read that year with a note on the inside of each book and a gift.

[01:10:46] I love that.

[01:10:47] I love that because I really do want them to be fully, truly successful in life.

[01:10:53] So last but not least, probably.

[01:10:58] Man, I'd probably say Finish by John Acuff.

[01:11:02] Because I feel like a lot of entrepreneurs are great starters and terrible finishers.

[01:11:06] It's called Finish?

[01:11:07] Finish by John Acuff, yeah.

[01:11:09] A-C-U-F-F.

[01:11:11] But yeah, it's, like I said, it's just about, I mean, obviously Atomic Habits by James Clear.

[01:11:17] But it's, I think if you read, if you read the one by Hardy there, by Darren Hardy, The Compound Effect.

[01:11:25] It's about the same thing.

[01:11:25] But anyway, it's, yeah, just, it's, and invest in you.

[01:11:33] Read the books.

[01:11:34] Listen to the books.

[01:11:35] Find out what works for you.

[01:11:36] I have Kindle, Audible, and books.

[01:11:39] I will oftentimes listen to something and then either buy it on a Kindle or buy it as a book.

[01:11:43] And then go back through it again or underline or whatever.

[01:11:46] But I can go through a lot of books with Kindle, I mean with Audible.

[01:11:50] And that's usually how I do it.

[01:11:51] And then I just figure out what I'm going to do with the other stuff.

[01:11:54] But, but yeah, I mean, I average probably 20 to, 18 to 30 books a year.

[01:12:02] Wow.

[01:12:02] So, but if you ask me what I'm just reading now, I just finished a seven volume.

[01:12:09] Historical Naval Fiction series.

[01:12:11] So I, I'm now about, I'll be back into business books starting this week.

[01:12:15] So I just wasn't in the mood.

[01:12:18] Yeah.

[01:12:19] Yeah.

[01:12:19] I had too much life stuff going on.

[01:12:21] So I just kept reading, but it was just a fluff.

[01:12:24] Yeah.

[01:12:25] You gotta, you gotta give yourself grace to do that every once in a while.

[01:12:27] So, yeah.

[01:12:28] Yeah.

[01:12:29] Sometimes it's, and again, it's not real, the real secret.

[01:12:35] It's not about how much, you know, it's how much you willingly implement.

[01:12:40] Mm-hmm.

[01:12:40] You know?

[01:12:41] Couldn't agree more.

[01:12:42] The things that frustrate me the most are the things that I knew that I didn't do.

[01:12:45] Mm-hmm.

[01:12:47] Yep.

[01:12:48] A hundred percent.

[01:12:49] So.

[01:12:50] Well, Stuart, I want to be a good steward of your time.

[01:12:55] And, but for folks that are listening that have found value, would love to reach out to

[01:13:00] you for one reason or another.

[01:13:02] What's the best way to find you?

[01:13:04] Probably LinkedIn.

[01:13:08] I mean, you can go to my website, i-mtechnology.com.

[01:13:12] That's my business website.

[01:13:14] Um, reach out to me that way.

[01:13:16] But, uh, LinkedIn is probably your best bet.

[01:13:19] And that's, uh, I, I'm trying to think of what my actual LinkedIn is, but, um, let me

[01:13:26] see.

[01:13:27] I think I might move on.

[01:13:28] LinkedIn.

[01:13:30] Stuart J.

[01:13:31] Brian.

[01:13:31] That's what it is.

[01:13:32] LinkedIn.

[01:13:33] And then look for Stuart J.

[01:13:34] Brian.

[01:13:35] That's me.

[01:13:35] It must've been another Stuart Brian out there.

[01:13:38] So.

[01:13:39] We'll make sure to put that link in the show notes.

[01:13:42] Yeah.

[01:13:42] Um, I can only speak for myself.

[01:13:44] I'm sure others will say this, but this has been amazing, Stuart.

[01:13:47] Thank you for the gift of your time.

[01:13:49] I've learned a ton.

[01:13:51] And, uh, thank you for being on MSP Mindset.

[01:13:53] Hey, I've been enjoying talking to you.